Does the Impossible Gospel Approach Accurately Reflect Mormon Doctrine?, by Keith Walker

well uh good morning everybody some of y'all caught that some of y'all are awake some of you aren't I wanted to start off by saying there is absolutely nothing wrong with Mormonism got a couple of LDS folks in the back that was the conclusion that I had drawn shortly after I left Bible College when Rodney and I had had hung out together there was a lot of folks don't know this a lot of people just think that I started out as this anti-mormon monster and that I hate Mormons and you know I come here because I like to bash on people it's got nothing to do it it could be anything further from the truth actually it started off with me with Jehovah's Witnesses I I got saved at a Billy Graham crusade six weeks after I became a Christian I had a couple of JW's knock on my door and they asked me about God's kingdom and being a new believer I didn't know a whole lot but I did know that a quote Matthew 6:33 so Fitzgerald was witness lady looks at me and says you're Christian and you read the Bible and you don't know anything about God's kingdom and I wasn't rude in my reply but it was something like look lady I've been a Christian six weeks I don't even walk yet spiritually speaking and you can't expect me to know everything there is to know about the Bible so I started studying and I went to my my church leaders and told them that I wanted to talk with these Jehovah's Witnesses and and they could there was only two things they could tell me about him number one they're wrong to stay away from him and I thought what kind of an answer is that you know here these people are coming to my door Bibles in their hands going to a place they don't believe in and I'm not going to say anything about that so even as I went through Bible College God continually placed Jehovah's Witnesses in my path and admittedly it started out because of a love to argue okay it's my spiritual gift but but God took that and really changed it honed the edges and all of a sudden I started loving these people started loving the Jehovah's Witnesses so when when my wife I moved down to San Antonio Texas after Bible College I started working with a guy his name is John he was a convert to the Mormon Church he was an RM had served in South America and we got to talking and I didn't know anything about Mormonism at the time all I knew was they were wrong you know I mean that's that's all anyone had ever told me so I started witnessing to him like he was a Jehovah's Witness and I asked him the question do you believe Jesus is Jehovah and he said yes it fits perfectly within the Mormon worldview right and then he said this and it blew my mind he said I believe Jesus Christ is my personal Savior and I was like what are they gonna do with that so I can tell you exactly where I was on the street driving home when the thought occurred to me there's nothing wrong with Mormonism John is just as much of a Christian as I am or at least he sounds that way so I got to thinking about it and I thought you know all these other Christians who are saying that that Mormonism the religion is not Christian but there's something wrong with it these people need to be set straight and I'm just the person to do that right so I walk in the front door and I laid this information down on my wife now those of you who know Becky she's a very gentle meek sweet person when she wants to be all right she grew up in Hawaii and as you know there's an extension of BYU out there so she had a lot of LDS friends when she became a Christian in her senior year of high school so after she got saved she started talking her LDS friends wanting to know if this was something that she should join you know should she join the LDS Church well she got to studying and found out that there are some drastic differences between what the LDS Church teaches and what the Bible teaches so when I came home and I gave her this information you know I'm gonna set the world straight on Mormonism right well it was me who needed setting straight and my wife was more than happy to do that so she pulled out this little book I don't even remember that the title of it is written by Robert Maury and most of the book is nothing but photocopies of Mormon works all kinds of photocopies so I opened up this little book and I start reading some of the underlined portions and I'm starting to freak out okay this is really different so being the person that I am I wasn't going to just take this little book you know I wasn't going to take that it's word for it I was I wanted to do the primary documentation look at that do my own research so we took this book with us to the library they had a great section on Mormonism 3 whole bookcases from floor to ceiling all the Journal of discourses the history church Mormon Doctrine I mean you name it it was there so what we started to do was we would open up this little book and get a reference we'd grab a book off the shelf I'd take it to the photocopy machine by the way this was BC for me before computers so we're copying all these papers and I basically reproduced the book with my own photocopies at like 10 cents a copy which was not good for me at that time so I started looking at Mormon works from their own sources and what I realized was that although John and I we were using the same vocabulary we had an entirely different dictionary words like God Jesus salvation repentance atonement all those words mean something totally different to LDS ears than they do to evangelical Christian ears so once I started realizing that there was a language barrier between me and John I started to define my terms what do you mean by that we learned about tactics yesterday okay where's Bret there is silver hey whoo all right so we learned about tactics yesterday well that was kind of what I was doing I would ask these probing questions to find out what exactly it was that my friend meant by these terms so that was how I started my adventure really into Mormonism and and again I've got a love for these people I can honestly tell you that these two weeks up here in Manito Utah are the highlight of my year they really are because not only do you get to get out there and talk with LDS folks but God does something in you through you and with you while you're here there's another video on YouTube I don't remember the name of it but at the end of the video Eric Johnson of Mormonism research ministry says something to the effect of it's not so much that man ty needs us as we need man ty and what I mean by that is God does something in us that helps us grow as believers while we're here stretching our faith out there on the streets so that's a story I don't think I've ever told in a public forum like this before I'm glad it's going to end up on YouTube so that people can understand really where I came came from and that it didn't start off with with me automatically thinking that there were problems with Mormonism I came to know that by studying it already believing that that's there were no problems so let me let me explain a little bit of what we're going to do here this morning of course you guys how many of you have heard the impossible gospel before okay I mean how many have not okay we've got a few how many of you have seen both the videos on YouTube alright that's that not as many aaron has been putting these videos up on YouTube I've got two other ones on the impossible gospel called the impossible gospel of Mormonism getting them lost and then the impossible gospel of Norman isn't getting them saved well it seems like there are some there's some controversy as to whether or not this approach really reflects Mormon doctrine accurately there are those critics of us basically who state that we are misrepresenting Mormon doctrine so what I decided to do this year is pretty much stick with the same basic outline of the impossible gospel but after I quote I go through my regular quotes and things I'm going to be using quotes from lds.org let me read something I didn't have this quote last night as I was finalizing my PowerPoint presentation but this is in Bill McKeever's book in their own words it says it's a collection of Mormon quotations this is on page 88 under doctrine it says in addition information on official church websites is reliable and consistent with the doctrines and policies of the church all materials on newsroom and other Church sites are carefully reviewed and approved before they are posted in a complementary or in a complementary way newsroom lds.org in other church websites provide an official voice from the LDS Church so a lot of these quotes that I've got that's that is on the website of I can't the URL v'n is extremely long and confusing but yeah it's on LDS newsroom so Aaron I guess maybe you could put an annotation or something in the video so that folks can find that link but that's right off their website so these quotes that I'm going to be using the vast majority of them are under the section of repentance so if you were to just go to LDS org and under search just type repentance and it'll take you to a section on repentance that has a number I think it's ten articles it's got other online materials those kinds of things I read through all of that and picked out what I believe are some pretty choice quotes that are going to reinforce what we have been teaching as the impossible gospel of Mormonism for years so that's what we're going to be doing this this morning a lot of what we're doing is also found in true to the faith this is a book that came out I think was in 2004 when the first came out ship was extremely excited and he sent this email out everybody's got to get this book and I saw the email but you know living in San Antonio Texas there's only one distribution center and it's you know almost on the other side of town so I hadn't made my way over there but I get an email from a friend of mine Judy she's a four time Manti vet hope she's able to come again here sometime in the near future but she calls me and says Keith I just got that book you got to get that book it's awesome they stole your outline so I mean it's all right there and all the stuff that's under repentance on lds.org a lot of it is word for word in here under repentance so let's go on to the next slide here by the way I'm not real proficient with PowerPoint as it is showing okay there we go all right who sets the terms when it comes to the gospel do we get saved our way or do we get saved God's Way obviously we get set God's Way all right what kind of laptop is this is an HP I'm gonna give a commercial for HP what I had was a Dell okay let me tell you something about Dell tech support I just want to talk to someone that I can understand English yeah you got it seriously you got to pay extra for that it's crazy all right anyway all right who sets the terms when it comes to being forgiving is that something that we do or is that something that God does there's a couple of quotes here obviously God sets the terms this is a Richard G Scott says it is essential to know that only on his terms can you be forgiven again this is right on lds.org the other quote here again by Richard G Scott on the same article finding forgiveness president temple Campbell taught to every forgiveness there is a condition the plaster must be as wide as the sword the fasting the prayers the humility must be equal or greater than the sin equal to are greater than the sin it is unthinkable that God absolves serious sin upon a few requests he is likely to wait until there has been long sustained repentance okay so asking for forgiveness does that work no there's got to be what kind of repentance long and sustained okay so here's the impossible gospel it's really three major things it's our attitude our approach and then finally the answers out of the three of those initially our attitude is the most important and the reason for that is because if you just come up and start blasting into some Mormon with a you know the most skillfully crafted argument that you can come up with they're not going to hear where'd you say they're just going to see your attitude all right earlier this I think it was last week we looked at Ephesians 4:15 that says speaking the truth in love right if so to speak the truth in love it tells us what to do and how to do it it doesn't say speaking the truth is love what if it did would that mean as long as I'm telling you the truth I can be a jerk about it that's what that's saying if it said that but again he tells us what to do and how to do it so I really believe our approach is is more important here I've got an illustration about the extras on illustration it's more of a personal experience I know I'm this was for the notes no that's cool a number of years ago this was probably in 2002 there was a guy who was from Las Vegas I don't remember his name but we'll just call him tank because he kind of look like one he was one of those no-neck guys with the shoulders way up to here I mean really just the stocky guy and that was as a broach what he would do is he would find the crowds the big crowds and he would go around the crowds and he was it was like he was prowling around and a Christian had said something to him I don't remember what it was and then a Mormon gave the answer and he kind of creeps up right behind this guy's ear and not in a whisper but he wasn't he wasn't yelling it was loud enough for me to hear it he just leaned over and said and that's why your beliefs are going to send you to hell he backed off and walked away and I thought what a jerk that really bothered me and I confronted him I went up to him and asked him what in the world are you doing you know whether or not someone is going to hell okay that's one deal all right but let me ask you from the viewpoint of the person you just said that - do you think that they understood that you care for them or that you were glad that they were going to hell and the tone that he had was that he was glad now there are time and circumstances and places where it is proper to warn someone about the dangers of Hell I did that last night but you need to do that with a spirit of humility not happiness and that's what this guy was and again he just was just prowling around like a lion and after I confronted him he hasn't been back to Manti since and the way I look at it is unless he changes I don't want him back because that's a bad testimony that reflects on all of us because that Mormon goes home and he tells his friends what happened here at Manti and if one of his friends show up and they see all of us that mental image is now projected onto all of us we have to be extremely careful with how we approach Latter day Saints before they are latter-day saints they are human beings and every human being deserves on an amount of respect and we need to treat them that way we need to treat them with respect now I also how many of you are new here for the first year okay there's probably about a third maybe a quarter maybe a third I envy you and here's why you have an advantage over those of us who have been doing this for years and you know what that advantage is you're scared to death why are you scared to death this is something new right you've never done anything like this so because you are afraid who are you going to rely on that's right you're going to rely on God whereas it would it would be very easy for a veteran to say you know what Lauren I got this don't you take the night off I can handle this one the second we do that we are in big trouble because it is not us that does any kind of convincing last week I had the privilege of leading a young lady to the Lord let me tell you how that happened I didn't even bait the hook the fish jumped in the boat she was ready I didn't really have to explain much to her the Spirit of God had already been working on her heart and when you have one of those circumstances you'll know it it's got nothing to do with how we say things or how or or the certain order that we put our argument last week a lot of Christians would come up to me and they would ask me about the impossible gospel ones they say how do you get from this point to this point or how do you answer this or how do you answer that how many of you have experience with martial arts okay we've got a few of us when you did martial arts there were certain things that you did to perfect your technique or call forms or patterns or karate is called a kata I forget what they call it in Taekwondo I'm sorry pod ways okay so what you do is you start in a certain position in a certain stance and you do certain blocks certain kicks certain punches and you move in certain directions okay that is practice that is not how you fight okay someone who gonna jump you in an alley is not going to wait for you to get into the horse stance it's not gonna happen it's totally different this is a forum it's not how we go out on the street and necessarily talk to people you can start in the middle you can start in the end I did that last week with Alma 34 so there is no magical way to this approach but if you care to use this approach what is good about it is when you memorize certain parts of it regardless of what they say you can key in on that because you've already covered that somewhere you've already practiced it somewhere at home so this is just practice okay are we working all right we start off usually with Moroni I 10:32 which should be right there thank you Lord all right what time is lunch because it's gonna be a while doing this man this is crazy all right Maria yeah three o'clock is lunch in the park all right Moroni 10:32 usually the way I start a conversation is I've got a little track called the pearl of great price and it's it doesn't say anything about Mormonism so it can't be called anti-mormon now it is worded in a way that Mormons will understand it it uses some of their terminology celestial kingdom heavenly father that kind of stuff but I'll just offer them you know would you like something to read before the pageant they usually ask what is it I'll tell them it's a modern-day parable it talks about how to have forgiveness of sin so if they stay there more than three seconds and I kid you not I start counting in my head 1,001 1,002 1,003 if they're still there I'll ask them the question do you have forgiveness of sin and most Mormons will answer well for the sins for which I've repented okay well do you mind if I share with you a verse out of the quad here you know I've got my nice little quad out of the Book of Mormon and they're more than happy to hear that a lot of times so start with Moroni night yay coming to Christ and be perfected in him and deny yourselves of all ungodliness and if you shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might mind and strength then is His grace sufficient for you that by His grace you may be perfect in Christ and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ he can in no wise deny the power of God did you catch the if-then statement I did if then a lot of times a Mormon won't catch that so you know yes them did you catch that if-then statement that is a conditional if you do what there's four things if you deny yourself of all ungodliness love God with all your might all your mind all your strength then is His grace sufficient for you so you ask the question when does this grace apply after you meet the requirements for it right after the then part not proceeding it you've got to do the if first I like to answer this question what or ask this question what does your or what would your life look like if you denied yourself of all and ungodliness anybody I've heard perfect I've heard sinless wouldn't need a Savior okay well within actually within Mormon theology you still would to cover your past sin all right but the atonement doesn't kick in until you meet the requirements for it you've got to do the if then you do or then you get the then so denying yourself of all ungodliness means that you have no more ungodliness left in your life to deny I asked a group of kids one time that question one kid very honest is what's what's ungodliness I said well you know godliness he says yeah I said it's not that so yeah it's deep I got it he understood it but doing this you know who's to focus on the focus is on me and my performance focus is on me first so basically our eternity before we get this grace that's sufficient for us my eternity really hinges on that word if if has been called the biggest little word in the dictionary if if you do this now a lot of people will say well you know you're you're trying to make that sound like I've got to be perfect well I'm not saying that that's that's what you just agreed that this passage says and I like to ask the questions I don't want to put words in their mouth I want them to answer the question so that I can gently remind them you said that I didn't say that from then we can go on to second Nephi 25 23 for we laid labor diligently to write to persuade our children and also our brethren to believe in Christ and to be reconciled to God for we know that it is by grace that we are saved after all we can do what really is all you can do that's a lot okay I like to the joke and say that I've done a word study on this in the reformed Egyptian and you know what that word all means it means all right it's all you've got to do all before that's it's that word all again so I mean it almost sounds like Ephesians 2:8 9 a lot of Mormons think that that's what the Bible says but that isn't what the Bible says that's out of the Book of Mormon it's done after now there was one time when a guy says you know you're inserting a time element here I said a time element after the word after he says yeah you're trying to make that sound sequential let me give you an illustration here I can picture my daughter okay sitting at the table and I tell her that she's not going to get her dessert until after she's finished with her vegetables I can picture my daughter going daddy you keep focusing on that word after you're inserting a time helmet here okay my daughter right now is eight she said something like this to me when she was like three okay if she once said to my mom or yep two to my mom you know I'm like a mommy in that I'm kind and grandma I'm like you because I like to cook and I like to be with other people but I think like daddy and that's what makes me scary so like oh where did she come up with that but I mean seriously if a kid couldn't understand this then you know after now here's one of the quotes that I got off of lds.org because there is some controversy on second Nephi 25 23 the millet crowd will say that it means something different that it really means in spite of all you can do not necessarily after all you can do but listen to this quote here this is by Clyde J Williams in the article plane and precious truths restored the perfect relationship between the atoning grace of Christ and the obedient efforts of mankind is powerfully stated by Nephi we know that it is by grace that we are saved after all we can do furthermore we are invited to come unto Christ and be perfected in him when we deny ourselves of all ungodliness here's the key point then and only then is His grace sufficient then and only then you don't get the grace before it's then and only then after you guys catch the significance of that yes well usually when I when I go through these quotes sometimes Mormons are confused and they'll say well you know why are you using the Book of Mormon you don't believe it to which I say no I don't but you do this is your standard so I'm holding you accountable to your own standard and they say well have you read the whole book of Mormon to which I usually say if I think I can get away with it with the right personality I like to say that I've read it from cover to maps but I can't some of you will understand that well do you believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God and again you know sometimes I like to joke with people and and I joked with a guy last night he told me he he served a mission in the Philippines and I said wow they usually send the smart ones overseas why'd they send you you know what he'd joke in he laughed so he knew I wasn't I wasn't being mean but you know sometimes I'll inter spark you know throw some things in there just to kind of lighten it up a little bit but another verse that you can go to is Alma 11:37 says then I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins for I cannot deny his word and he have said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven therefore how can he be saved except he inherit the kingdom of heaven therefore you cannot be saved in your sins can't be saved in your sins how many of you are still in your sins okay a few of us yeah rodney was sleeping so here's the question if God cannot save you while you're in your sins then in what condition do you need to be before he'll save you and they usually look at me like what I'll say well what's the opposite of in oh you've got to be out of your sins before he'll save you and how are you doing with that right now is there something you're working on still and they usually answer yes that's the case they're still in their sins here's one of the quotes off of the lds.org this is Spencer W Kimball the article the gospel of repentance but if we do not repent then the Lord clearly lets us know that there will be discipline and a denial of blessings and advancement the Lord teaches that he cannot forgive people in their sins he can only save them from their abandoned sins ooh from their abandoned sins so when I asked the question of a Mormon are you forgiven of your sins and they say well of the sins for which I've repented this is the basic idea that they're thinking of they're only saved from their abandoned sins what does it mean to abandon us in you don't go back to it now later on in this discussion we're going to talk a little bit more about repentance so we're going to define that according the LDS authorities and we're going to see that yeah that's that's a very integral part of Mormonism another quote off of lds.org from je Jenson do you know how to repent another prerequisite or condition to repentance is to know that no unclean thing can dwell with God bunch of references you can hide sins from your bishop you can hide them from your parents and friends but if you continue and die with unresolved sins you are unclean and no unclean think and well with God there are how many exceptions there are no exceptions so if you have not completed your repentance if you still have unresolved sin you are not going to dwell with God I talked with a lady last night and I was trying to explain to her some of the differences between how we view God and how the LDS are taught to view God and the one characteristic that I can I can really hone in on that I don't think we truly understand is God's holiness I am NOT a holy person okay I am not pure God is that is something that I just don't relate to I can't conceive it this woman had a lesser view of holiness and in her mind she thought it perfectly acceptable to be holy but fallen that doesn't compute with what I read in the Bible the the next verse that I like to go to there or from there is first Nephi 3 7 and if you were to take the whole impossible gospel you could hinge it on two verses really Moroni 10:32 and first Nephi 37 you put those together and it's it's difficult to get out of this is a scripture mass reverse by the way and before I get into this verse especially if I'm with a bunch of teenagers I'll say hey there's a verse I want to show with you guys it's it's a scripture mastery verse and it's in first Nephi and it talks about how how God is going to help us to keep his Commandments and they're kind of looking at me trying to you know figuring out and it's alright its first Nephi 37 do you know it tell it to me but if they don't know it then they haven't done all they can do but if they do and usually one of the kids will start to to quote it and then the other ones will join in and then it's almost like a race to see who can get to the end fastest and it came to pass that I knew if I said unto my father I will go and do the things which the LORD hath commanded for I know that the Lord giveth no Commandments unto the children of men shave his shave save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commanded them you know what I like to call this this is the Nike verse just do it you can do it right you can do this I will always ask them what does this mean again I want them not yet I want them to tell me what it means so that they can't accuse me of putting words in their mouths and they always say God will help you keep his Commandments he's not going to give you a commandment that you can't keep if that's the case then what if God gives you commandment what does she expect you to keep this commandment why why you've got the ability is he going to give you a commandment you cannot keep no he's not going to do that so a lot of times yes the question for YouTube is is this one of the verses out of the Book of Mormon that Mormons don't believe a lot of times yes that's the case to which I will then ask them are you telling me that there are parts of the Book of Mormon that aren't true and of course they don't want to say that but they don't feel comfortable with being held accountable to this verse because usually they'll say well I only have to do my best there was a discussion that my wife and I had with some mister sister missionaries a couple years ago and my wife was talking with them she was doing most of talking and I was listening in Frank because we were kind of stuck when we got to this point they were they were trying to make it sound like it wasn't all that bad and they kept saying you just have to do your best you just do your best and I said well well what is your best if God gives you a commandment that you can keep and you don't keep it did you do your best because by the very fact that he gave you the commandment what does God expect you to do your best which is keeping the commandments so I asked them have you ever kept a commandment and they say yes you did your best you kept the commandments how many of these Commandments do we need to keep all of them how often do we need to keep them all the time so we've got to keep all the commandments all the time again how are you doing with that they don't like being held accountable to this verse so they kept trying to squirm out of it yeah well you know as long as I'm trying or as long as my intent is there or as long as I'm getting better day by day to which I said well then it sounds like what you're saying to me is you really don't need to keep the commandments you only need to try and they didn't like that at all so they had stopped it right there they they didn't keep coming up with more objections to it so we get to the next one here please I'm sorry okay I'll just point at you ding all right again now here's that quote that's going to reinforce this idea on lds.org but but difficult as they be they do not relieve us of accountability for our actions or our in actions Nephi was right God gives no commands Commandments to the children of men save he prepares a way for them to obey however difficult our circumstances we can repent so regardless of your circumstances Nephi is right and of course you know I mean the reference isn't there but the context is first Nephi 37 Nephi's right God isn't going to give you a commandment that you can't keep there's another quote that says basically same thing here in the kingdom of God there are laws which teach us the way to perfection any member of the church who is learning to live perfectly each of the laws that are in the kingdom is learning the way to become perfect here's the killer quote there is no member of this church who cannot live the law every law of the gospel perfectly I'm going to read that part again okay cuz not only is it on lds.org on first principles and ordinances of the gospel that but it's in the teachings of the president of the church Harrell biele so this is also in correlated material there is no member of this church which cannot live the law every law of the gospel perfectly does that leave open any room for interpretation can you keep the law if you are a member of this church how many laws do you have to keep how often Gerry did you have a question okay a lot of the question is do Mormons try to claim the grace before they meet this or do they try to claim the grace after this and usually they want to say well and in the basic idea is you do your best Jesus does the rest how many of us have heard that on the street okay you do your best Jesus does the rest we've already defined what your best is what's your best keeping the commandments because there's no commandment under the children of men he hasn't given anything to us that we're not going to be able to keep again here we have it does it is the word grace even there no let me tell you something about grace though LDS defined grace as usually one of two things it's either a synonym for mercy or they treat it like an enabling power okay and I'm going to speak about that toward the end of this about that enabling power versus how we view it as Christians from what the Bible says there's another quote again off a lds.org so the word date of this is the Lord's work and when he gives a commandment to the children children of men he provides a way by which that commandment can be realized if his children will do all that they can to help themselves then the Lord will bless their efforts the Lord expects us to do all we can to save ourselves and after we have done all we can to save ourselves then we can lean upon the mercies of the grace of our Heavenly Father that answers Jerry's question he gave us he gave his son that through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel we might gain our salvation but not until we have done all we can do for ourselves did you hear that when does the grace apply after all you can do that's what we've been saying for years you they don't believe us hopefully they'll believe this why is it that we sustain their authorities more than they do I've asked that you know I mean I I believe you know if I were LDS I mean I'm taking it for his you know what he's saying here if this is what he's saying and then then that's what I've got to do what this does is this one quote ties second Nephi 25 23 first Nephi 37 and Marilla and I 1032 all together ties those all three of those quotes together again it's what we've been saying for years now usually at this point Mormons will say something like you know I don't have to be perfect I just need to try to be perfect I'm doing the best that I can you know I had one more missionary say this to us I'll never forget it it's seared into my memory she said you know it's really not that I'm a big sinner it's just that I make mistakes it's like getting the answer wrong on a scantron card you just circle the wrong answer now that means something different to me because in high school I drew pictures with the scantron thing it's one of my GPA was a 1.81 hit more than doubled in Bible College praise the Lord right but I called her on that and I said please don't call your sin a mistake what you're telling me is the savior of the world suffered bled and died for you're mistaken scantron sheet does that kind of put it in perspective a little better he died for sin the wages of sin is death I don't know about you but that's serious I take that seriously this is doctrine of covenants 131 through 30 actually I've only got 32 on here I put 33 but the reference is wrong for I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance nevertheless he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven so what kind of sin does god excuse none he doesn't excuse any sin not in the least degree of allowance now again the Mormon says you know but I'm trying I'm trying and I've got a couple of things I want to read you out of the miracle of forgiveness if you do not have this book you need to get it I couldn't put these quotes on the PowerPoint last night but under the heading this is on page 164 Spencer W Kimball trying is not sufficient says nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin to try where the weakness of attitude and effort is to assure failure in the face of Satan strong counteracting efforts what is needed is resolute action a story will perhaps illustrate this an army officer called a soldier to him and ordered him to take a message to another officer the soldier saluted and said I'll try sir I'll try to this the officer responded I don't want you to try I want you to deliver this message the soldier somewhat embarrassed now replied I'll do the best I can sir at this the officer now disgusted rejoined with some vigor I don't want you to try and I don't want you to do the best you can I want you to deliver this message now the young soldier straightening to his full height approached the maid the matter magnificently as he thought when he saluted again and said I'll do it or die sir to this then now irate officer responded I don't want you to die and I don't want you to do to merely do the best you can and I don't want you to try now the request is a reasonable one the message is important the distance is not far you are able by you can do what I have ordered now get out of here and accomplish your mission how many of you guys can hear that with a with a with a Jack you know the few good men I wish I could do his accent for his voice for that I mean how many of you can picture that get out of here and accomplish your mission it's normal for children to try they fall and get up numerous times before they can be certain of their footing but adults who have gone through these learning periods must determine what they will do then proceed to do it to try is weak to do the best I can is not strong we must always do better than we can do better than we can from this point on especially if I'm speaking with teenagers if someone tells me I'm trying I'll just look at him and say weak it was one time when we had a group of kids and we'd gone through all this moved on to the next part and some other groups of kids came in who hadn't heard that part and one of the new ones says but we're trying the other guys the Mormon guys looked over and I'm in said week do you have a question I'm sorry let's page 164 the the next quote that I want to go to is on page 354 out of the same book Spencer W Kimball you guys know who Spencer W Kimball is right well I asked I asked some Mormon missionary that night he wasn't a missionary I'm sorry I asked I'm warm in this one time this is do you know Spencer W Kimball I pulled out a track had Spencer W Kimball on it and he says yeah I know who he was this well who who is he he he kind of looked like he was caught off guard and he says he was a great man and I said are okay is that all I mean I'm looking for he was a prophet of the Lord right he says he was a very great man and I said well great man page 354 this passage indicates an attitude which is basic to the sanctification we should all be seeking and thus to the repentance which merits forgiveness how do you merit forgiveness repentance it is that the former transgressor what is former me used to be former transgressor has reached a point of no return to sin wherein there is not merely a renunciation but also a deep abhorrence of the sin where the sin becomes most distasteful distasteful to him and where the desire or urge to sin is cleared out of his life is there anyone here besides me who has reached that point in their life okay Marshall has my t-shirt is appropriate right now but not really because it's not at the point in the outline where I'm going to use it you're so sharp Marshall all right all right Marshall likes my t-shirts Thank You Marshall so have I applied this correctly I mean DMC 131 and these these quotes out of miracle of forgiveness well this is off lds.org again rationalizing is the enemy to repentance someone has said rationalizing is the bringing of ideals down to the level of one's conduct while repentance is bringing one's conduct up to the level of his ideals what's the ideal perfection to which I usually hear but nobody's perfect they are lowering their ideals says we can't do that now Kimball wrote a book about this you know the miracle of forgiveness about this book because a lot of Mormons will say this book is not authoritative it's not Scripture when when makar I'm sorry when Kimball wrote it he was an apostle he was not the president of the church they still sustain their Apostles right they're still seers and Revelator's so here's a quote to tell us that yes this book is authoritative the miracle of forgiveness I suggest that you read president Spencer W Kimball inspired book and when they say inspired they don't mean the same that we say inspired they mean basically inspiring that you read president Spencer W Kimball is inspired book the miracle of forgiveness it continues to help the faithful avoid the pitfalls of serious transgression it likewise is an excellent handbook for those who have committed serious errors and want to find their way back Richard G Scott said that so this book is okay I had a team team member who went home last week her name interestingly is Grace Wow it was me and my wife we had three other girls one of them was named faith the other one was grace and so we called the other one not of yourselves she didn't like that so uh grace met with a Mormon friend of hers and and before when she was studying Mormonism you know months before this guy told her oh don't look at the anti-mormon stuff don't look at the you know all the stuff on the internet you got to get some real books so when she told him this was Monday when she told him Monday hey I just got back from I just flew in from Salt Lake City and I've got some books he's like good you've got some books what'd he have she says all I've got true to the faith I've gotten miracle of forgiveness I've got teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith and he says oh don't read that miracle of forgiveness that's heavy so I don't like reading that book I can only read that book a couple of pages at a time and then I have to put it down let me tell you something that book is heavy but it is what Mormonism teaches about forgiveness Mormons are usually taught that good feelings come from God bad feelings come from why does so many Mormons have bad feelings about this book I'm not trying to say Satan wrote it that wasn't my point my point was sorrow for sin is one of the the steps to repentance sorrow for sin when you feel sorrow when you are suffering is that a positive thing it doesn't feel like it at the time but that's still one of the steps of repentance and I haven't done it with this year maybe I'll do it next year but I really to focus more on the suffering aspect of repentance for the Mormon so that they can see how serious it really is with we do like to focus on the abandonment of sin because that's the impossible part but the suffering part I want them to feel it I want them to feel the weight so that when Christ lifts the weight they can really tell the difference and usually at this point that's when they say I can repent so what is repentance it's five steps let them define it by the way don't help them for instance and this kind of goes with the friar your own fish rule - all right I was speaking with a couple of Mormons last week and and she said that well the Bible says that we need to pray about truth what verse was she thinking of James 1:5 I said where does the Bible say that she said I don't really know I could have stepped in and said James 1:5 but that wasn't the direction that I wanted to go so I thought if you want to tell me it you need to come up with a right verse so I was able to go on the track that I wanted to go and she told someone hey go gets her mother she'll know where that verse is so her mother comes over what verse did you want I handed over my quad and the lady says you know what's that verse that you know that Joseph Smith prayed and she's James 3:5 I said read it well it wasn't James 3:5 so she stood there for 15 more minutes looking for James 1:5 that allowed me more time to talk with this lady about what I wanted to talk to so if if one of you guys would have came up and saw that they were looking for James 1:5 and you were being helpful and said oh it's James 1:5 not James 3:5 you just blew 15 minutes of my time all right so that's what we mean you know guys there's plenty of Mormons around go get your own these are my Mormons all right so we've got the five we've got sorrow for sin abandonment of sin confession of sin restitution for sin and doing the will of the Father this book here I'm sorry booklet chip has a number of these at the solid rock cafe I strongly encourage you to get one of these it's called repentance brings forgiveness it that's copyrighted by the corporation of the presidency written by Spencer W Kimball it's an unnumbered tract but if you open it up to the very center you'll see the abandonment of sin that's one of my favorite quotes it is best when one stops sinning because he becomes aware of the seriousness of his sin he then should want to comply with all the laws of God the thief may abandon his evil in prison but true repentance would have him forsake it before his arrest and return what he had stolen voluntarily the sex offender who voluntarily stops his sin is headed toward forgiveness Alma said blessed are they who humbled themselves without being compelled to be humbled and the Lord said by this you may know if a man repented of his sins behold he will forsake them okaythat's dnc 5843 we're going to look at that a little bit the forsaking of sin must be a permanent one true repentance does not permit making the same mistake again did you guys catch that what kind of repentance is God looking for true repentance and I had a lady make that distinction last night her name was Barbara she says no true repentance is not committing the same mistake I said well what if you do it again she said then it wasn't repentance I said thank you bingo so when we start going down the line you know have you ever told a lie before yes had a couple of missionary sitting on my on my couch have you ever told a lie before they both said yes I said is there a possibility that you're going to lie again in the future the honest missionary said yes the dishonest one said no when he lied so I kind of looked at him and I said I think one of you is being a little more honest with his sin than the other one but the thing about lying is that's premeditated right you've got to come up with a good story otherwise it's not gonna work trust me I've done this you've got to have a good story so you're thinking about it you are actively sinning you see it coming it doesn't catch you you know like anger does you know it jumps up in you lying you don't just lie you'd have to do it on purpose and if you can't stop lying I'll ask the fourteen-year-old boys what are you going to do with your lust I'll ask the girls what are you going to do with your envy your covetousness you see when Satan wants to tempt us as a man how Satan gonna appear to me nice looking woman as a woman what Satan going up here like shopping mall or chocolate right he's gonna get you at your weakest point but if we can't stop the sin that we premeditate if I can't forever abandon that sin so that I can be forgiven what am I going to do with all these other sins now there was one lady who who I met this was a number of years ago this is my favorite story to tell about the conversation that I had with a Mormon traditionally you know all of us Christians we camp out in the North West Park or northwest corner of the park affectionately known as the Christian ghetto well evidently this one Mormon family didn't get the memo and they put their tents right out among stars in their welcome you know I've got no problem we help them set up their tents and and and usually when a family comes to the park they're only there for one night see the pageant they leave in the morning they try to get out before the lady comes along to collect the ten fees and but this family was doing a family reunion so they were there for a couple of days and I didn't take them too long to figure out who we were t-shirts crosses you know I always think it's kind of funny where Christians just like Oh My heck he's weird across so we're underneath the pavilion there and and this this lady the matriarch of the family she's in her late 70s maybe early 80s she starts barking at her daughter her adult daughter don't they know about James chapter 2 faith without works is dead faith without works is dead and and hurt her daughter got tired of listening to it so she went into the tent and I'm there with my laptop and I'm journaling you know so I can send it to my mom so that she can send it out to the folks who are praying for us so that they know how to pray for us know what's going on and this lady comes and she sits right down in front of my laptop and I'm thinking Lord I'm on this mission trip I'm trying to get some things done you keep giving these Mormons to talk to joking so we got into a three-hour conversation I kid you not it was three hours and about two hours into it she said when I joined the eldest church and she used the word saved when I got saved and joined the LDS Church I didn't sin for a year now there's usually two responses to that the one which you guys were having now yeah right or if you're LDS and you believer well I've been accused of thinking outside the box and sometimes I don't know what box people are talking about but I had a different response I looked at her and I said that's horrible if she said what I said man that's that's got to be one of the worst things I've ever heard in my life she says you got to be kidding me I just told you I didn't send for a year I said ma'am I I heard you I understood I understood but I really think that's bad she says what are you getting at I said ma'am why'd you start again and she was sitting here drinking her coke some Mormons think that sin some Mormons don't okay but the point was she hadn't abandoned her sin she just temporarily stopped it and what I said next did not offend her because of the relationship a robust relationship that we had developed over the previous two hours I said ma'am not only do you need to completely forsake all your sin or completely stop it but you need to forsake it forever forsake it and you don't have a whole lot of time left now if she wasn't offended she knew that I was genuinely concerned for her I mean she's an older woman who knows how long I mean who knows how long any of us have you know but her expiration day was a little bit closer than probably some of ours so I was genuinely concerned for her and she took that she understood that and she took that to heart and and I hope that eventually she really took it to heart I don't know I mean they left the next day or so but that's just something that shows the difference between forever forsaking and temporarily stopping those are the difference differences going to the next slide here I am so thankful for you alright is this accurate have I been correctly portraying this here's a quote again off of lds.org this is Lynn Mickelson the article is called the atonement repentance and dirty linen the quote our responsibility is to do the work of repentance we must abandon our sins so the cleansing can begin when does the cleansing begin after you have abandoned sin yeah how much oh there's that reformed Egyptian word again full repentance is absolutely essential for the atonement to work it's complete miracle in your life the Mormons want to claim the atonement before but what kind of repentance must we have before the atonement can do this can complete it full and it's essential it's essential now the objection is repentance as a process we don't do it all at once it takes a lifetime to complete here's a quote that speaks to that this is out of the church news in Neil L Andersen from the article clean again which is again on lds.org as a prophet of God president Harold B Lee explained the most important of the commandments of God is that one that you're having the most difficulty keeping today is the day for you to work until you've been able to conquer that weakness then you start on the next one that's most difficult for you to keep that's the way to sanctify yourselves by keeping the commandments of God that's the process you pick one you master it you move on to the next one Master that one move on to the next one that is what's called daily repentance right okay what did Joseph Smith have to say about daily repentance this is an unyielding permanent resolve to not repeat the transgression by keeping this commandment the bitter aftertaste of that Finn sin need not be experienced again remember but unto the soul who sinneth shall the former sins returned Joseph Smith declared repentance is a thing that cannot be trifled with every day daily transgression a daily repentance is not pleasing in the sight of God that's quoted in the article finding forgiveness by Richard G Scott now the the repentance that he's talking about here is specific sense you know say lust you can't repent of lust every day because you haven't repented if you keep trying that so it's not it's not talking about all sins just in general it's picking one sin picking the next one picking the next one if you are continuing to repent of the same sin over and over again that's not true repentance I asked the guy one time I'll get to you in a sec I asked a guy one time about the lying thing have you ever told a lie he's just you know more than once and he says yeah but not the same lie I said all right have you ever looked at a woman lustfully in your heart and I don't you know more than once and I don't mean the same woman you know I got lots of opportunities right here's lots of women in the world I just got to repent once for each woman right is that how that works no obviously not what was your question okay good question restitution how can you how can you make restitution for lust those kinds of things that's why murder is such a serious sin and in Mormon theology because you can't bring someone back from the dead the the the correct idea of restitution is as far as it is possible so you do everything that you can to make restitution there's some restitution that you're just not going to be able to do and and the LDS authorities recognize that but they want you to do all of you can do so that that's that's how we answer that okay the murder and adultery that's right okay we're almost done here sorry it's taken so long because of this but usually Mormons will say but I can repent after death that's when we come to Alma 34 32 through 35 I've got the wrong reference on here but behold let's count how many times we hear this life okay for behold this life is a time for men's repair to meet God the a behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors and now as I said unto you before as he have had so many witnesses therefore I beseech of you that you do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end for after this day of life which is given for men to prepare for eternity behold if we do not improve our time while in this life then cometh the night of darkness where and there can no labor be performed you cannot say when you are brought to that awful crisis that I will repent that I will return to my god now you cannot say this for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the same time that you go out of this world or out of this life that same spirit will have power to possess your body the world for behold if you have her graston ated procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death behold he have become subjected to the spirit of the devil and he death seal you his therefore the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you and have no place in you and the devil hath all power over you and this is the final state of the wicked can you repent after death not according to the Book of Mormon now there are some general authorities who contradict this and say that you can repent after death so we have two contrasting ideas here The Book of Mormon says no some general authorities say yes as my good friend bill McKeever likes to say if only they had a prophet to guide them you know because they've got two separating ideas here so you cannot procrastinate your death or your repentance until death you've got to do it now we counted five times this life this life not only that but who are you sealed to seal to the devil I talked with a couple of fourteen-year-old boys last week and I brought this point up I went started at the end and went right to alma 34 and I told him I said were you guys seal to your families I said yes I said are you still procrastinating your repentance and there's an interesting thing about procrastinating I've been trying to learn how to do that and I just can't get around to it you know but the thing is you know if you've got something that you've got to do and it takes an hour and you wait till the last minute well it only takes a minute you're still procrastinating are you have you completed your repentance they said no I said I'm sorry to inform you you're not sealed your parents according to the most correct book on earth you're still the Satan how are you feeling right now are you comfortable with that thought they both shook their heads they weren't real happy about that this is the final state of the wicked this is still all Mathare but I've got different notes on this slide here at this point I like to really lay it on thick not to try to be mean but to show them the seriousness of their sin I really don't think that Mormons have a correct view of sin it's it's minimalized it's not it's not taken as heavy as it should be so at that point you can go you can go back over the outline and review some of the things that we've done your whole eternity hangs on that word if you only get the grace win after all you can do you're still in your sins all 1137 therefore your lack of performance whose fault is it God's forgiving you the commandment are you for failing to keep it yours the gospel the word gospel means good news is this good news no it's not good news I think I can manage this last one here same thing yes okay so I like to tell my team you've got to get them lost before you can get them saved you know but the ladies that I was speaking to last night said you know you honestly believe we're lost so yes ma'am I do that's why I'm here because I love you I love the Mormon people and I want to see them obtain the same forgiveness of sin that I have according to your your leaders suffering is a part of repentance yet so many Mormons are just oh yeah I've repented there's no evidence of the suffering I like to remind people that sometimes we tell the gospel too quickly we just want to jump in there and start preaching Christ crucified which is a great thing but until you have started to define your terms they're hearing what they believe and the Mormon said it last night oh you're not you're not any different than we are then I said then why are we disagreeing it's old a couple more missionaries one time if they would do that you guys ever had that experience they say something and then you totally contradict it and they go yeah that's right we believe that I got so tired of it once with a couple of missionaries I said you know if it weren't for the fact that we were contradicting each other we'd be saying the exact same thing the kind of look to me says you should be a lawyer but the question that I usually get is what's the difference we've got faith in Christ you've got faith in Christ why do you think that I'm not saved and I say here's the difference the difference is do you believe that Jesus is one of many necessary things for your forgiveness or is he alone sufficient and I had I had the ladies just last night say Jesus is sufficient I turned and pointed to the building the temple I said then that building is unnecessary she says no we have our ordinances in that building that we need to perform I said then what you're really saying is Jesus is one of many necessary things he alone is not sufficient and I told her I want to hear you say Jesus is insufficient and she said I can't say that I said why not she said that just doesn't sound right you're right but that's the difference between our faith I place my faith in Jesus alone not Jesus Plus now Jesus plus my works not Jesus plus the priesthood not Jesus plus the ordinances in the temple now Jesus plus anything it's Jesus alone I had that same conversation about the the temple with a friend of mine way back in 2001 he said almost the exact same thing as this lady said last night Jesus is sufficient where's my mouse okay now there are some Bible verses that I like to use in for sake of time we're not going to get in those there are the verses are all are already up on the other two gospel presentations that we've done the possible gospel form is and getting them lost and getting them saved but here are a couple of quick examples that you can use Mormons have a wonderful work ethic wonderful work ethic use that I asked I asked the guy last night if your boss handed you your paycheck and said here's a gift for me to you what would you think he said that's not a gift I earn that I said that's right you earned that I said if my boss said that to me I'd take that as a derogatory comment about my performance kid here's a gift you did not earn this but I'm gonna give it to you anyway so they can see the difference between a gift and a reward interestingly enough eternal life it's never called a reward it's only called a gift it must be accepted so his wife says well then everybody's got it if it's just a gift everybody's got it and I said no you've got to accept that gift if you had a debt of a million dollars and I were to hand you a check I told you I've got a million dollars in my bank account and I were to hand you a blank check to cover your debt for any amount that you wanted to fill out is your get paid not until it's personalized not until that money is deposited into your account then you're out of debt that's what Jesus did for us he took his righteousness and deposited it into my account so I could trade he took my sin gave me his right standing before the Father so that when the father sees me he sees the righteousness of Christ there is an interesting story it's a true story about a tightrope walkers a French tightrope walker his name was Charles Blondin and what he did was he took a tight rope strung it over Niagara Falls he had crowds on both sides of Niagara Falls and he would go back and forth over the false 160 feet he started doing all kinds of tricks he would do it blindfolded he did it while cooking an omelet oh how you do that he did it with a wheelbarrow and his manager says who believes that the great Blondin could push a man in that wheelbarrow over the falls on that rope after everything that you've seen is there any reason to believe that he could not perform this task everybody said they believed it his manager asks who will be that man all the hands went down the manager gets in the wheel barrel Blondin pushes him across the tightrope that is the kind of trust in faith that we place in Christ do you think the man in the wheelbarrow had anything to do up in be still don't distract me don't get me off my center of balance hold on tight okay picture if you will one side of the river to the other earth to heaven you can try to go across yourself you're just gonna fall you can try to shoo me across you're just gonna tire out and fall you're gonna hit the water die there's only one way across that you get in that wheel barrel that's the kind of faith that Jesus requires it's not you trying to help him get across the tightrope it's you trusting in his ability and his ability alone so get to navigate across that tightrope one of our team members from last year or name is Paige she's an ex-mormon save just a few years ago we were over at her house one night for dinner and we were praying and she said this she said lord I thank you for your saving grace those two words struck me because Mormonism teaches that it is enabling grace grace enables you to perform your labor the type of grace that is described in the Bible is not enabling grace it is saving grace so for those of you who are on YouTube watching this I hope many Mormons watch this that's what Jesus requires of you get in the wheelbarrow and trust in the saving grace of Christ you want me to go over some of the Bible verses all right he'll wait mmm Mouse you guys got your Bibles handy by the way I attend Community Bible Church in San Antonio Texas and it bothers me when I see Christians walking into a Bible Church with no Bible and I asked them do you go to community I didn't bring my Bible to church now a lot of folks have them on their phones so you know they really do have them okay I can't get to where I want to get here we go all right go to first John 5 I shared this with with the ladies last night first John 5 9 through 13 and this mouse is so temperamental someone let's see okay here we go all right first John 5 9 through 13 chip likes to refer to this as God's testimony you know you ask a Mormon to bear their testimony to you and then it's good to to bear God's testimony verse 9 if we receive the witness of men the witness of God is greater for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his son he that believeth on the Son of God hath this witness in himself he that believeth not God hath made him a liar because he believeth not the record that God gave of his son now I'm gonna pay I'm gonna ask you to pay attention to some of the tenses one of the ladies last night told me that she was an English major so I started calling out the tenses and this is the record that God hath given past tense to us eternal life and this life is in his son mister present tense he that hath the son present tense half life present tense he that hath not the Son of God hath not life here's the kicker cuz she asked me how do you know you are forgiven so because I believe God when he told me verse 13 these things I have written unto you who believed in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have present-tense eternal life and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God now if I don't believe that according to verse 11 what am I calling God a liar God said that I can know that I have presents and eternal life so I'll tell Mormons I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that the second that I die I will be with Heavenly Father because I believe what he said he offered me forgiveness of sin in his son I have the Sun I have eternal life it's as clear as that I'll just do two more verse or two more passages here there was during the the Olympics up in Salt Lake in 2002 I was going over some of this with some with some Mormon teenagers and they were really getting it and in this this one guy saw that that I was you know making some ground making some way with these folks and and he jumped in and he says what about what about faith and works you know faith without works is dead and I turned to him and I said have you repented of all your righteous deeds he's like what are you talking about he said isaiah 64:6 says all of our right are as filthy rags if you are trusting in your filthy rags to please God you need to repent of that have you repented of your righteous deeds he didn't say a word after that and I was able to get back to these teenagers yes ma'am right for those of you listening on audio former Mormon brought up the point that yes we do work but not to get what we have it's because we already have it I'm going to say it in a different way it's not faith plus works equals forgiveness it's faith equals forgiveness plus works the ladies asked me last night well then what's the purpose of life if you're already David what are you doing here I said I'm glorifying God because of what he's done for me I am testifying I am a witness of what he has done for me and I am sharing that that is my purpose in life I glorify God with my works because I am forgiven not in order to be forgiven okay the the last last passage and then then we'll end thank you for your patience with all of my technical difficulties here all right this is Romans chapter 10 Romans is the most inspired book in the Bible you laugh okay brethren my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel you say Utah is that they might be saved for I bear them record that they have a zeal of God but not in according to knowledge for they being ignorant of God's righteousness are going going about to establish their own righteousness and have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God you see there's two righteousnesses there your own righteousness or the righteousness of God whose righteousness do you want to trust okay did Jesus ever have to repent no I do continually right Mormon would say everyday so do I want to please God with my righteousness or do I want that blank check righteousness of Christ deposit it into my account those are just a few verses that I like to use to show them that it's it's not after all I can do is because I can't

Channel: Aaron Shafovaloff

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Length: 91min 57sec (5517 seconds)

Published: Fri Aug 20 2010