Full Episode: “Families of Killers” (Ep. 224) | Our America with Lisa Ling | Oprah Winfrey Network

there's andy this is andy williams   he was a daddy's boy there you go that's it yeah  i got some videos of him riding the two-wheel bike   with the train wheels on for the very first  time he's a really really nice little kid he was the lead in a charlie brown  musical it was pretty good to watch   within a year jeff williams son now 15  would step on to a much larger stage   i was in the car and i was like stop light and had  the radio on that um came on that there was two   kids got killed and i sat there at that stoplight  screaming and his name on why why why before   it was over freshman student andy williams  would shoot 15 people killing at least two   what's it like to love somebody  who commits an unspeakable crime   tonight we hear from a school shooter's father  a serial killer's daughter a terrorist's brother for the rest of time when people think of this  name kaczynski they're gonna think murder madness   violence in some sense ted's bombs had blown up a  lot of worlds you know including ours how does a   family member live with the death the devastation  the disgrace america it can be inspiring and   beautiful it can also be dark and ugly it's  so many things but it's ours it's our america ted kaczynski was by every measure a prodigy   a genius he had an iq of 165. he  got into harvard at the age of 16.   he was a brilliant mathematician a rising star  of the academic world and then he disappeared the year was 1971 he moved to the woods  of montana and built himself a one-room   cabin with no water or electricity over the next  decade he would shut himself off from the world   and become in the words of his distant neighbors  a hermit only one person was close to ted during   this time and he lived over a thousand miles  away in a cabin of his own in the texas desert   his brother david david how are you how are you  so nice to meet you thank you so much for inviting   us oh welcome david kaczynski looked up to his big  brother ted he followed distantly in his footsteps you come from chicago right went to ivy  league schools but yet you really saw   this kind of isolated peaceful environment when we  were children our family went camping a lot and it   was like we loved that you know we'd go two weeks  vacation my dad had from being a sausage maker   and it was like just such a lovely time  and a bonding time for the brothers too to   spend time together out in the  woods it was a bond that lasted   we loved each other we loved the woods  we both were idealistic in our own ways by the 1980s the brothers kaczynski had retreated  from the dawning computer age carving out rustic   solitary lives david spent nearly a decade in his  hand-built cabin ted would spend 25 years in his   he wrote david dozens of letters from montana one  of them stood out at one point he had written me a   letter and said i was the only person he'd ever  loved he said if anything ever happened to him   i should know that he had loved me and when  you got that letter did you suspect anything   i thought he was thinking maybe you know an  accident in the woods or something did you have   any idea of what he might be conspiring to do  absolutely none my brother was never violent   what david didn't realize was that ted's retreat  from technology in the modern world had escalated   into a deadly assault against it his cabin in the  woods was in fact a bunker inside he fashioned   bombs of wires pipes and shrapnel he mailed  them primarily to universities and airlines   hence the eventual moniker unibomber when did  you first hear about the una bomber it wasn't   until 1994 that i ever heard about a unabomber  my wife linda is a college professor so we had   some conversation you know hon don't open any  packages you know there's this unabomber out there after 17 years and 16 bombs the unabombers trail  had gone cold then in june of 1995 a typewritten   manuscript arrived at the new york times it  called for a revolution against technology   the fbi urged the newspaper to publish  what would become known as the unabomber   manifesto hoping somebody somewhere would  recognize the intellectual fingerprints   of its anonymous author you know i'd read my  brother's philosophy about technology his language   how he thought i almost thought i could hear my  brother's voice in in in the letters now david   heard a very familiar cadence in the unabomber  manifesto he faced a wrenching choice you know   if ted wore the unabomber there was a fair chance  probably even a likelihood that he'd be executed   so i had to ask myself what would it be like  to go through the rest of my life with my   brother's blood on my hands you know i thought  about ted i mean here's this man with paranoia   who says he's only loved one person in  his life and that's his little brother   and his little brother ends up being the one who  hands him over to an executioner you know it was   kind of this was the moment of truth where i  actually had to tell mom what we suspected david   broached the subject with his mother delicately  mom has it occurred to you that you know the   unabomber has this manifesto against technology  and you know ted has this phobia about technology   well mom you know was clearly connecting the dots  i mean within five minutes she just got very quiet   her first reaction and i think you know  it's very forgivable given that she's a   mom she says oh david don't tell anyone and  i said mom i i've already told some people   david had told the fbi weeks later  he watched the evening news with his   wife and mother he had a film clip of him being  let out from his cabin between two federal   marshals and i've never seen a homeless person  that looked worse than ted did at that moment every pair of eyes in the universe is  seeing this man and seeing a monster   what we're seeing is a brother my son  it's like my heart wanted to be there   with him and to say you know as much as we  we hate what you've done we love you you know   your family loves you i can't tell you what it  felt like you know to know like for the rest of   time when people think of this name kaczynski  they're gonna think murder madness violence   were you afraid of how ted was going to  react upon hearing that you had turned him in   i guess for sure i mean i found out later that  apparently he had asked how did they forever find   me and one of the officers said well didn't  you know your brother had turned you in and   what was reported to me was that ted refused to  believe it he said my brother would never do that   in 1998 ted kaczynski was locked away  for life in a federal super max prison   in 15 years he has not responded to a  single one of david's monthly letters   david had likely saved many innocent  lives but he was dead to his only brother   who could ever know how that feels a fellow  traveler another brother of another killer but   bill babbitt's story has a fatal twist his choice  to turn in his brother would lead to death row   time to go back east and make a side  trip to go to the st patrick cemetery   to my brother's grave in this blessed  soil of cape cod massachusetts   to stand in front of this plaque in the  ground which says private emanuel babbitt usmc   vietnam didn't say oh exemplified brother manny  forever faithful that's the marine corps motto semper fi forever faithful bill babbitt was  loyal to his brother manny to the bitter end   he desperately tried to save his life bill's  journey is a saga of guilt sorrow and salvation   of a killer's brother and a brother's keeper   it's a journey that has led him here onto  this train bound for texas but it began   three decades ago in sacramento on the day  a marine showed up at his door then he kind   of surprised me i was on the job and there's my  brother in his marine corps uniform so handsome so strong looking such a warrior and i was very  proud of my brother manny but manny was gone he left it all back in vietnam he wasn't the  same he wasn't the same manny when he came home   but you took him in of course my wife loved him  manny babbitt had served two tours in vietnam   surviving one of the most brutal battles of  the war caisson back then when manny first   came out of the war we didn't know about ptsd now  he's fighting an imaginary war here in the streets   of america when bill took manny in he knew  his brother was troubled but he didn't know   how troubled he would quickly learn on december  19 1980 a 78 year old woman named leah shindel   was found dead in her south sacramento apartment  badly beaten and partially disrobed the shock of   the assault and an attempted rape caused her to  have a fatal heart attack according to prosecutors the assailant left shendel's  apartment with a telltale souvenir   in those old-fashioned cigarette lighters it  had initials on it ls bill babbitt had found   the monogram lighter among manny's things he had  read about the attack on the paper and had thought   nothing of his brother's disappearance the night  of the crime until now my first thought was to   give them a bus ticket send them back  east to massachusetts or rhode island   you know if i hadn't done that who knows  how many other grandmothers would have   found themselves in manny's war you know and we  just couldn't do that so i made a phone call to   the sacramento police department and i told him i  said i think my brother's got blood on his hands   many claimed to have no recollection of the attack  but his fingerprints were all over the crime scene   the victim's ankle was tied with a strap  and her face was covered with a mattress   bill speculates that manny had left the  body in the same manner as he might have   tagged a fallen soldier in vietnam evidence of his  brother's severe post-traumatic stress disorder   did you go to authorities because you thought  somehow this could be a way that your brother   could get help yes most definitely bill hoped his  brother would be put into a mental institution   that's what the police suggested when he  brought them to manny cop came up with me   and going so bill we got your brother he's  okay you want it right there back with him   i told the cop i said i i can't get in the  car you know i i can't go with him you know um   i feel like i betrayed my brother they asked me if  i want to say something to him and i go uh manny   you're gonna be everything gonna be okay you know  he says i did it for you brother and i says please   please forgive me and he looked up at me and says  brother billy he says i've already forgiven you   but manny was not put into a mental hospital  one day i called the district attorney's office   that's when i found out that they were in  fact seeking the death penalty for manny   they call manny a monster they call him an animal  and i remember my mother telling me what i mean   he's an animal you mean to tell me i had eight  kids and one of them was an animal our next   stop will be el paso by 1999 with every appeal  exhausted and every stay of execution denied   the babbitt family was desperate and bill was  reeling with grief with guilt manny had forgiven   him but other family members had not some of the  young people probably refer to me as a snitch   you know which i've been called terrible words  i have nephews that they don't want anything   to do with me they hate me and i know they hate  me and i figure maybe they ought to hate me too   concern for bill manny's lawyer placed a call to  texas to david kaczynski the unabomber's brother   the lawyer talked about this man bill babbitt he  said david you know you may be someone who could   really relate to what he's feeling i know the  horrible dilemma you're faced with where you you   know either protect your brother or you protect  a world of innocent people from your brother   david came to california to stand by bill's  side and to plead for clemency on manny's behalf   hey dave how are you what's happening hey  what's happening it's good to see you yeah when manny's neck was headed for the news  david must have picked up on something because   he says bill i'm going to ask you right  now promise me you'll never hurt yourself remember that yeah i do   manny babbitt was executed on may 4th 1999 bill  watched his brother die david attended the funeral   at one point i saw bill with his arm around his  mother and mrs babbitt's like her legs buckle she   starts to fall she starts whaling my son my son  and here's bill trying to hold up his mom you know   and i'm thinking wow that could have been me and  my mom over the next decade bill and david would   find a common cause as brothers in arms fighting  against the death penalty i tell you over the last   three years i've logged thousands of miles across  the state of new york i've gone to small towns   people feel differently about the death penalty  and they would forge a deep friendship manny is   gone god has brought me another brother i  have another little brother's name is david   david let me know no uncertain terms that he will  not reject me he will always be my friend it's a promise it's a promise that he's made bill and david found solace  in their shared struggle   but i'm about to meet a father who had to shoulder  the burden of a son's atrocity completely alone on the morning of march 5th  2001 there was a shooting   at santana high school in santee  california okay where's the shooter i was at work and about 9 30 tv was  on and there was a shooting at school   and the school administrators have requested  that the parents come get their children jeff williams 15 year old son andy was a freshman  at santana high there's all the police helicopters   and media helicopters over and swats and  sheriff cart and there's parking lot across   the high school the school had been evacuated  into a strip mall parking lot across the street   i was hoping he wasn't one of the victims  at the time you don't know how many people   were killed don't know how many injured  nothing like that you're just out there i've traveled to santee to  meet jeff in the parking lot   where he went to search for  his son after the shooting it was here that his entire world would be turned  upside down so jeff today the shopping center   looks like a typical one but on march 5th 2001 it  was a very different environment wasn't it oh very   different i still get goosebumps you know thinking  about that day and i can picture them like injured   being taken care of i see all the police cars  and stuff that are over here i see the parents   worrying about their children it is disturbing  and it probably won't ever go away it's a parent's   worst nightmare something has happened to their  child after over an hour and no sign of andy   jeff was beginning to panic finally he spotted  some familiar faces here's these two young women   and these friends i recognize from  apartment complex and they're crying   i go hey have you seen andy where is he i've  walked everywhere and he go and he did it he could just like feel your heart just fall down   no there's no way andy williams had opened  fire in the boys bathroom of his high school   then continued shooting into a crowd  of students gathered in the courtyard   he surrendered officers after killing  two students and wounding 13 other people   while andy was in police custody jeff was across  the street alone in a crowd there was nobody   you know that was here that i could talk to the  only people i could talk to is the people i worked   with that day i still bothered me you know and i  had to call there and tell him that andy did this   it was a shocking and desperate act by a teenager  who until recently had been a good student   well-behaved and popular things began to change  when jeff a single father since andy was three   moved to santee for a job it was the fall of  2000 you all moved to california from maryland   and he was really popular in maryland and once he  started coming to this school he was teased a lot   wasn't it yeah yeah for his um being small  in stature and and our uh hillbilly accents   so to speak so this wasn't a place that andy likes  to come to not at all but andy did make some new   friends at santana high he hung out with them  almost every day after school when jeff asked andy   about the bruises he often came home with his son  told him they were from spills on his skateboard   andy confided in his friends back home in maryland  about the constant bullying he became suicidal by   february he felt he had nothing left to lose  he told some of his friends in santee that he   was going to quote pull a columbine they  didn't believe him according to some they   actually goaded him into it according to others  whatever the case they didn't try to stop him in the days that followed the shooting the  apartment where jeff and andy lived was cordoned   off with police tape and fingers were pointed  at jeff it was after all his gun that andy fired   i taught andy how to shoot i told  them how to respect the guns you know   they were in a lock gun cabinet i did not  know there was any bullets in the ken cabinet   the cabinet was locked but andy knew where jeff  kept the key he made off with his father's 22   caliber revolver and 40 bullets i'm guilt-ridden  today as i was then for what my son did i feel   sorry for the families he lost her children  that day and you know for the ones that   were wounded while andy awaited justice  jeff's fatherhood would be put on trial   i'm at the grocery store and here's my  kids book bag and stuff is on time magazine   cover about a school shooter and here i am  portrayed at this hillbilly beard drinking   camouflage wearing long hair watching sports all  day sleeping on the floor guy how did it make you   feel when you would read that andy's father was  negligent or or neglectful i'm single parent doing   my best you know to put a house over our heads  feed us both i thought i was pretty good parent   i missed three soccer games you know from the time  he was five years old until you know we moved to   santee i think that was pretty darn good but  do you think do you think there's anything that   you could have done in terms of communication  that that may have prevented him from acting out   i still can't answer that it wasn't one of those  um you know i love you you know um you know and i   hug him every day no it wasn't that way the funny  thing is three days after the school shooting is   one of the first time i was able to see him at  juvenile hall and i tell you yeah he looked tiny   in those gel clothes and that was the first time  i ever told my love i think it might have been a   little bit too late all right miss anton are you  ready at 15 andy williams was tried as an adult   and was sentenced to life in prison he'll serve at  least 50 years before he's eligible for parole he   lives here now at the ironwood state prison in the  middle of the mojave desert over a thousand miles   to the north in spokane washington i'll meet a  young woman who is also paying for horrific crime   amber is not a convicted killer but her father  is among the deadliest america has ever known   this used to be amber yates several years ago she  legally changed her name here in spokane the name   yates casts a long shadow spokane is the  place where he committed the crimes so   i like being anonymous and not  having the negative attention on me   oh look there she is seriously solder stay away  from her do you know who that is you need to stay   away from her don't go by her don't talk to her  amber's father was one of the most feared killers   to ever stalk the pacific northwest i was at work  actually where i got a call from my mom saying my   dad had been arrested for murder there was two  detectives that came and picked me up from work   and then we saw some of the footage the news on  tv by comparing his dna to samples found at crime   scenes investigators say they have tied yates to  12 homicides possibly 18. robert lee yates killed   at least 13 women in spokane prostitutes  he picked up from the red light district   he shot them tied plastic bags around their  heads then disposed of the bodies in wooded areas and then he went home to  his wife and five children we're in the old neighborhood that i used to  live in are we getting close to your old house yeah what's this house right here  which one this one right here it was here that amber's father would park  the family van after a night of killing   did you or your family members ever notice any  kind of odd things like i mean he had this van   with a bed in it did you ever think anything  of it my mom knew he was cheating but   he was able to explain things away like he said  he ran into a dog and he put it in the back of   the van so that was the explanation for blood  we had nothing to suspect was a teenager at the   time of most of the killings the mid-1990s her  father a career army officer was so comfortable   behind his suburban facade that he buried one of  his last victims in the yard where the gate is   and where the the poles are that's the proximity  where she was buried the victim so your father   buried this woman's body while you guys were  living there yeah how does it make you feel   we didn't know it was there it's not creepy any  longer it probably was when it first came out but   it was to me he was hiding the body  just another place to hide another body   when you've lived through the horror that  amber has maybe detachment is the only form   of self-defense what was going on behind these  doors abuse violence dysfunction there was times   when it felt like satan was coming through the  door what are some of the things that he did   to you well when i was five he picked me up by my  ankle and shook me until i peed on myself and then   just dropped me on my head and then when i was a  teenager he was screaming at my little brother and   sister and he was calling them stupid and dumb and  i told him stop and he'll quit saying that to them   and he came over and he picked me up and they  threw me across the room i'm sorry i had to break her father's arrest mark the end of both the  killings and the physical abuse of his family   but for amber a new struggle was about to begin   i went to living in a home to living in  shelters and struggling to try to survive   why did that happen like why did you go from  middle class and affluent community to shelters   my dad was the provider for the family and  when he was arrested everything just crumbled   what did it do to you all as a family unit it  caused a lot of depression and there was much more   fighting and arguing discord some  of the dysfunction is still there   while her father spent the last decade on death  row at the washington state penitentiary amber   has spent her twenties in arrested development she  abandoned school and has had trouble holding down   a job and why couldn't you keep a job there was  fear that i was the same as my father some people   didn't want you on their teams or on their staff  no you know who her dad is he's a serial killer   let's go tell the boss she shouldn't be working  here i've had people say like father like daughter   they would try to make me seem like i was a  monster i couldn't be like normal have normal   feelings or a normal life a normal life it's all  amber wants but is it really possible for a serial   killer's daughter or a school shooter's father  or a terrorist brother to ever have a normal life a year after his son andy was sent to prison for  shooting up his high school in southern california   jeff williams moved to a suburb of phoenix these  are some of the baseball teams that he played on   it was his partner donna's idea i moved jeff out  of there i said jeffrey you're going to find a   new job we're going to move out of santee and  out of this area i'm sure that when they see me   that i am i am in the same level that  they believe jeff is and that's okay   very at the very bottom do you think initially  you judged jeff based on what andy did no i cannot say that other than i knew  that this man just by looking in his eyes   i could feel that he had been through hell and  back i know andy did a horrible thing but i also   knew i was standing in front of a father and i was  by himself hey is it is this storming there yet that's andy on the phone they talk about the usual  things sports the weather familiar banter for the   middle-aged dad and his 20-something son it was  the funniest thing andy we had an ice chest and   i had i bet you i had a case of sodas in there  there's close now perhaps as they've ever been yeah them kids drink all that soda there's times  you know that when i talk to him on the phone the   only thing i see is the little three-year-old  boy on the bicycle with training wheels and that kind of like makes it okay just for  a little bit all right now is my first time how many times can you do that it's going to tear  on you you know so some part of it you got to put   some of this stuff away but how do you do that  i still haven't quite figured that part out yet   all right all right love you   bye-bye it's a struggle every family of  every killer tries to figure out somehow   okay dry wood that'll catch when the person you  love commits an unspeakable act of violence what   do you do with that love can you ever put it  away few can understand what david kaczynski   went through when he turned in his only  brother ted the unabomber bill babbitt can   he turned in his brother manny for  murder ted kaczynski was sentenced   to life in prison for his crimes and manny  babbitt was executed you two both lost your   brothers but in many ways you've kind of become  brothers yourselves what does that mean for you to   have brothers we've shared similar tragedies  but his journey was much longer and much more   difficult than mine his brother was executed  and i can never know if i would have the grace   that bill has had i will never know if i have what  you have in terms of the ability to to reconcile to not hate others or to feel guilty yourself  i you know i was always embarrassed because i   got out of school the first day the eighth grade  but i don't have to prove nothing to david see   because david david is not looking into my head  to read what's in my head he's already read   what's in my heart we open up our hearts to one  another you know to me that's what it's all about   i can feel very sad one minute next  minute we're poking fun at one another   you've cooked over the campfire a lot i guess  you know what you're doing um do your thing i think a lot of people would recognize that  when you go through tough times sometimes   humor is a great gift well i had some of your  rice and beans and now you know what you're doing   oh thanks yeah that's my specialty your rice  and beans is the bomb no pun intended hey bill has come here to texas to share a milestone  with david so bill it's your 70th birthday today   why did you want to come spend it with  david 70 years old that's a big that's   a monumental achievement 70. it's pretty  cool of him to allow you to eat steaks   in his home because he's a strict vegetarian  i know i hope he'll forgive me you know   you know being 70 years old and one foot  in the grave and one foot on a banana peel   this might be the last time i'll come down  here i think in those terms in other words um   i would like to live life to the fullest that's  why i come limping down here i wish manny was   here i wish ted was here i wish all four of  us could be here together but it's not to be   i think back about my brother and i think gosh  all the times i should have really realized   how fragile it all might be thank you little  brother david the biological brother that i   have and that i've loved he's he's gone  you know he's he's in my heart that's   about the only place i can find him  with bill we're here today we're alive   we're reasonably good health good spirits  i want to make a toast to mr bill babbitt   the best friend a man could have happy  birthday well thank you happy birthday it's christmas time for better for worse  the holidays bring families together   for jeff williams that means getting ready for a  long drive to visit his son andy i want to be able   to drive to my son's house for christmas okay  we're ready to go well i do drive to this house   but it just happens to be behind four or five  walls bob orr you know and a guards at the gate   once a month jeff and donna leave  their home in arizona at 5 a.m   to make the 4-hour drive to visit andy  at ironwood state prison in california so jeff and donna are having their  monthly visit with andy and we're   not allowed to bring cameras inside so  we're waiting at a local truck stop but   this will be the last visit that jeff  has with his son before christmas   i catch up with jeff and donna one last time on  their way back to arizona so how was the visit   everything worked really smooth we got a couple  pictures the prison has its own photo studio wow   it's so interesting to see him because the picture  that the world is familiar with or him just a   little boy he's like such a tall man now yes andy  is 6'3 nearly a foot taller than he was in 2001.   what does it feel like to watch your son  become a man in prison he's almost to the   point where half he spent almost half his  life behind bars and it's hard to believe   for me that it's been that long as of march 5th  2001 expectations of what any of us were going   to do were drastically changed and you just  settle for what you can get for the good stuff   andy will be a senior citizen by the time he's  eligible for parole do you think about the fact   that you might never see your son outside of  prison walls during your lifetime yeah he's up   for parole when i'm 90 years old and granted he's  alive i'm not visiting a tombstone or a memorial   i'm visiting him there's parents that don't get  to see their son there's parents that can't hug   them well at least i can do that each  year it comes it's a little less painful   but then you know it's christmas time i'm gonna  go see my son i go see him in prison guard   and that's our christmas for amber yates christmas  is also a reminder of the family she's lost i'm going to spend christmas day by  myself i don't have family around   and i don't have the resources to go and see them   it's similar to some of the past the  holidays that i've experienced just by myself   amber's mom and her four siblings  have moved away from spokane   and her relationship with them is strained but i'm  surprised to learn that amber is still in touch   with the father who caused the disintegration of  her family over a decade ago i've worked on a lot   of forgiveness but it it's hard with my father  i mean there was a period of time i did hate him   and there's still anger and unforgiveness towards  him but that's my father that's my flesh and blood to his victims and their families robert yates  will always be a monster but amber has chosen to   let go of her hate for him not for his sake but  for her own she's chosen to let go of her shame   amber has never shared her story publicly before  now she hopes to begin writing herself a new   chapter if you could will anything to happen like  what would that be going back to college for sure   amber has begun a degree program in nursing and  with the assistance of a local charity she's   moved out of the homeless shelter and into an  apartment of her own last night was her first here   hey amber wow this is it how was it to sleep here last night it was good  it felt peaceful so this is my bed no mattress yet   and then i don't have any dresser of course  so it's my clothes and all my personal items   since your father's arrest have you felt  any period of normalcy no no not at all   everything's just been all out of whack so in  a way this little apartment means something   huh yeah it's my own space my own atmosphere a  step to normalcy in my life into better things and you feel like that's  within your grasp i think so the killers are gone dead or in prison   in their wake they've left a trail of shattered  lives orphans widows parents of murdered children   victims families with an unknowable sorrow  we grieve for them in the only way we can   but in the shadows of our vigils and memorials  there are anonymous survivors among us   fathers and brothers mothers and sisters the killer's family and together they mourn alone   i'm excited to give you an update about our own  youtube channel now you can find new videos every   day they're the kind of videos that will make  you look at life differently they may even make   you laugh a little bit subscribe to the own  channel today and we'll see you on youtube

Channel: OWN

Views: 2,372,679

Rating: 4.7515082 out of 5

Keywords: Oprah, Oprah Winfrey, Oprah Winfrey Network YouTube, Oprah Where Are They Now, Where Are They Now Oprah, Iyanla Fix My Life, full episodes, Super Soul Sunday, Oprah Winfrey Show, The Haves and The Have Nots, Have and Have Nots, If Loving You Is Wrong, Iyanla Vanzant, Livin Lozada, Oprah Life Class, how-to, season, episode, Our America with Lisa Ling, Lisa Ling, Full Episode

Id: M6-Y5fy-8gw

Length: 41min 21sec (2481 seconds)

Published: Wed Jan 20 2021