Thank you for joining us on YouTube. My guest on Facing the Canon
today is Dave Brennan, who leads a remarkable ministry called Brephos. Dave Brennan, welcome
to Facing the Canon. Thank you very much. It's a great privilege to be here. I'm delighted that you are.
Well, I know you went to Oxford University and you studied Classics. What made you go to Oxford to do
Classics? It was just something that a teacher I had when I was just
12 perhaps - just planted the seed. He just said someone like you, I was really into Latin at the time,
and I was just beginning Greek. He said, someone like you
should have your eyes set on Classics at Oxford and I just
thought, I quite like the sound of that. And so I guess I always had that in
the back of my mind as I was at school, sort of 13 to 18. I loved language, I loved Latin and Greek. And so it was just
something I always wanted to do. You'll be pleased, I read a report, that Oxford
University is the number one best university in the whole world. That's right. I think five years running, yes. Five years running. Right, you then became a teacher. And how many years did you teach? So, I did two years with the
educational charity, Teach First. So what they do is they kind of
get graduates into tougher schools or schools in poorer areas and
they kind of train you on the job. So I did that for two years.
But then became an evangelist? That's right. So I worked, as I was working as
a teacher, for my day job, as it were. I was part of a team that was helping to revitalise
a church in Southwest London. So I was already part of that team. And one way or another, we
went away on prayer days as a church and it was discerned that
we really needed to invest more in evangelism, and in some other areas
as well, but that was perhaps the main area. And prayerfully, it was
discerned that I was the person to come and try and help with that. So, I did two years. Saw out my notice at school and
came on board the staff team that summer. But now you oversee
a ministry called Brephos? So tell us about that? How did that start? When did it start? Sure. So perhaps I'll just say what
Brephos means; that might help. So the word Brephos
is the Greek word for baby. It's used in Luke Chapter 1, of John the Baptist, leaping for joy in the womb... and it's used of Jesus himself in Luke 2,
lying in a manger, so a born baby. And so it's a word, which for me
just encapsulates God's heart and how God sees the
unborn child, that before birth there's after birth. It's the same person, same value. So the name
Brephos really came from that. And it's a ministry that's to help the Church to really see the
unborn child as God sees the unborn child. But anyway, so that's
what Brephos is about. Perhaps we'll talk more about that
later? But over the course of a number of years, really, the
Lord raised the issue of the unborn child and what's happening to
them, to my wife and myself. And really, it came to a point where that
was really dominating our thoughts a lot. We came to learn of just the scale of what's happening. Yes. And many Scriptures were speaking
into our lives at that point. And so, really it all came to a head
while I was working on the staff team of this church. Really, it came to this conclusion of, this is the greatest moral issue of our day. And who's doing anything about it? And so really that realisation led to
really quite a clear calling where the Lord made it unmistakable to us that He
didn't just want our spare time, but he wanted all our time. And so we came on board with something
called the Centre for Bioethical Reform UK, and with them we launched this new ministry,
Brephos, in January 2018. Dave, give us some of the facts. What are we talking about? You know them, educate us. So in the UK, In the last couple of years,
for example, we've had more than 200,000 babies killed in the womb,
just in England and Wales each year. Yeah. Every year. Every year. And so that amounts to
about one in four babies. So for every one baby that's
killed in the womb, three are born live. So this is, you know, I grew
up in a Christian home. I was notionally pro-life, It was my default position, but I
had no idea the scale of this issue. And when I came to realise the scale, it really rocked us actually, because it's very hidden. You don't see it. This is behind closed doors. Just remind us, when was it legalised? 1967 And so since... did America legalise it first? No, slightly after us actually. Roe v Wade was slightly after. So in fact, the UK has
been something of a pioneer in the abortion industry worldwide. And since 1967, we've had 9 million. And, what about how many abortions every year around the world? Is there an estimate? Yeah, the estimates range between 40 million and 50-55 million. So we're talking about a
million a week worldwide. And when you start computing
these sorts of figures, if you can, I mean, if you can compute this, what we're seeing here really is a genocide of
unprecedented proportions globally. And what are the reasons that
people give for aborting a baby? Well in this country, by the
letter of the law, you have to give one of several reasons. The doctor has to be able to sign
you off, as having a reason. And for 98% of abortions
in the UK, they're done under what's Clause C, which basically states, that it's the doctor's judgment that it would be more of a
threat to the woman's physical or mental health to continue the
pregnancy than to have the abortion. So it's kind of by the letter of
the law, it's under this kind of mental health bracket. But what
everyone knows, and even the abortion industry is quite candid about, is
it's not really about mental health. It's a question of choice. It's autonomy. And so quite simply in the UK, if
you don't want to have this baby, you'll have an abortion. You never hear of anyone
being denied an abortion. So what it means really is,
we have abortion on demand. So whatever the reason, you can have
an abortion. That could be anything from, my partner will leave me
if I don't, to, I'm struggling financially, to even - what we saw in the news recently, well I'm going on holiday
and I don't want my bikini body to be jeopardised by being pregnant. And the abortion industry is
caught on camera saying, yep we'll give you an abortion for that reason. So, what we're living in, is a
culture where whatever the reason, the State will pay for and, enable you to
have your unborn child killed in the womb. And the State will pay for it, which
means the tax payer is paying for it? That's right, NHS, tax payers money. So basically all of us are paying for this? That's right. Something like 200 million pounds
a year, in the UK, is spent on abortions both here and internationally. And many babies are terminated
because they're supposedly there's a defect or something. That's right, so about 2% are under a clause
which has to do with the physical health of the child. So any kind of abnormality, is grounds for abortion, right
up until birth actually in the UK. So right up until birth, for... right up
to the actual day? To the day of birth, yeah. A baby can be terminated? That's right. That's right, right up until birth. There's no time limit on that. If there's thought to be some abnormality.
Now that can be anything from something quite severe and life limiting. Spina bifida or something, Which actually, can
be rectified in the womb Incredibly. There's been surgery in the womb which
has been amazing. But it can be anything like that to something like Down's Syndrome,
to having a Cleft Palate, which in this country, is so easily treatable. I mean, it's, it's basically
an aesthetic thing. But last year, the year
before, several babies were killed, just for having Cleft Palate in our country.
Basically didn't have the right look. But when we, right up to the day,
Dave, I mean, some of those babies might be seven pounds, eight pounds. Yeah. Now, the Christian conviction is
that life commences at conception. Just explain that to us. Well it's both the Christian
conviction and also a medical fact. So every medical textbook
agrees that from the moment of fertilisation - when sperm meets egg,
a new human life has been formed. And that's not my opinion. It's a fact. It's a fact. And three key things
happen at that moment. The DNA is formed. This
totally unique set of information for that individual, like no one else in history,
that's a unique individual. It's different DNA from the father,
different DNA from the mother. And so it's unique. It's an individual, it's
not a part of someone else. Because it's got different
DNA. And it's alive, It's not dead. And there are only two
options. It's alive. It's growing. And then thirdly, it's human. It's not a different species. You know, human parents,
we get human offspring. And so what you've got is
an individual, it's alive. It's human. It's a living human being. It's an individual, right from that moment. And that's just the science. But
of course the Bible affirms this. Psalm 51:5; David refers to
himself as a person from conception, 'from when my mother conceived me'. He says he was a sinner from that point. Yeah.
I was created of my mother's womb. That's right. Yes, that's right. And of course, above all
else, Jesus himself was conceived of the Holy spirit, not born of
the Holy spirit, but conceived. So from conception, Jesus was there. That's when the incarnation happened. And so if Jesus was there
from conception, we know that that's when human life begins. That was his, the beginning
of his human life. Okay. Let's look at some of
these different areas. First of all, what would you say
Dave, to any of our viewers who have already had an abortion? We don't obviously know
the circumstances, but they've had it. They're feeling
guilty or bad about it now. What would you say to them? Well, the first thing I would say
is, you're really not alone. And you know, one in three women in the UK
has at least one abortion in her lifetime. It's not spoken about much. It's not spoken about much in the Church. It's easy to feel like you're the
only one, but that's not true. There are many people in the same
boat and actually crucially, you know, whether you've had an abortion or not, we're all in the same boat. I stand before God as a
sinner in need of grace. I need the cross just as
much as the next person. And although abortion is an
incredibly significant thing. It's not the unforgivable sin and the
cross is easily powerful enough to save anyone who, who turns to Christ in faith. And it doesn't matter what
your past sins might be. I love that interchange
that Jesus has with that, the thief on the cross next to him
and the thief says to him ... 'Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom'. And Jesus says, I tell
you the truth, today you'll be with me in paradise. He says it instantly. There's no kind of payback periods. The thief can't go and
set everything right. He can't prove to everyone he's changed. All he can do is look to Jesus. And that's all any of
us can do, is look to Jesus and
His Grace is enough. The Gospel is big enough. Yeah. And we believe in the healing grace of Jesus. Yeah, absolutely. Now for any listeners now, Dave,
the woman's pregnant expecting a baby; is thinking about
aborting the baby. What would you say to them? The first thing
I would like to say is, and this is true almost
anywhere in the world, it's certainly true here in the U.K. The doctors will not tell you the
truth about two important things. They won't tell you the truth about
the humanity of your unborn child. Just how developed and
wondrous this gift of life is. Do you know from three weeks after
fertilisation, there's a heartbeat. For ten weeks after fertilisation,
there's a fingerprint. There are fingernails, eyes, ears, nose. You can even tell that the baby's
right handed or left handed, from their movements in the womb. So almost all... isn't it amazing? Amazing. Almost all the organs, that you and I have, were there
from about 10 weeks after fertilisation. So the first thing I'd encourage any
woman who's pregnant and struggling with what to do. Go to: ehd.org. That's the Endowment
for Human Development, ehd.org. And you will see a video of life in
the womb from earliest stages, and it's just mindblowing. And that's your baby. You're already a mother,
that's your baby right there. And, so wonder
at the creation of life. And don't let the doctors or
the abortion industry lie to you and say, oh, it's just a blob of tissue. You know, it's just, it's just
a pregnancy, because the language really changes quite dramatically in this whole area, according to
what people are trying to do and what thoughts they're trying to plant. So get familiar with what's
going on in your womb. And the other thing I'd say, and
this is hard, but you need to do it, is you need to become aware
of the facts of abortion itself. Yes. Because again, the euphemisms
cloak this. They just say look, we'll just terminate this, we'll end this, we'll sort it out. Tell us some of the facts, details. So most abortions happen at
around ten, eleven, twelve weeks. And in this country, until recently,
with lockdown, this has changed things with abortions, kind
of being mostly performed at home pills are sent in the post. Now that's
what's called a medical abortion, where you take pills, and that's the majority of
abortions worldwide - certainly here in the UK. And, even before
lockdown, it was the majority. And what happened there is you
take two pills. The first pill basically cuts off all
the supplies to the baby. And so it kills the baby and the womb. And then the second pill taken maybe
a day later will expel the baby. And so you basically deliver it. At that stage it's small, but
very clearly it's a baby. And then the mother has to deal with that somehow. And these babies have
to... they don't disappear they have to go somewhere. Do you bury them? What do they do? Well, they flush them down the
toilet mostly. That's, the kind of advice, is you just sit on
loo. The doctor will say that? Yeah. Because at home abortions,
what else can they do? You know, either you put it in
the bin or you flush it down the loo. And so, what you've got is, in the sewers
of our nation, tens of thousands of human babies - disposed of. And so that's the most common
form of abortion in this country. But there's also surgical abortion where
literally the baby is just dismembered, pulled limb from limb, decapitated, crushed,
disemboweled, and then just pulled out. And what they have to do is
then reassemble the pieces of the baby on the table to make sure
they've got all the pieces out. So there's not infection. So
that reality of abortion, when seeing what it
is - it protests itself. I don't need to protest abortion, I just need to explain what it is. Yeah. And it protests itself. And so I urge any woman, any
couple, considering this, please get to know the facts of abortion. You need to know what it's going to
do to your baby, and also what it does to the mother - the health impact,
the mental health impact on a mother, can be severe. And then I guess the third
thing I'd say, is that where there is life, there is hope. God doesn't create a child without thinking it through.
You know, there are enough resources. He's given you a child because
he trusts you to be the parent and he will enable you to parent that
child, if you will, if you'll do it. And there is help out there,
you know, you get in touch with us. We've got friends around the world
who can help, and there is help. There are people who
are desperate to help you, if you need help at any specific regard. But where there
is life there's hope. And so we encourage you to be
courageous. Where there is life there is hope. You just hinted, some
of the health issues that could develop as a consequence of
aborting a baby. What are those? Well, so some of them are contested.
There's obviously, there's correlation, there's causation and there's
debates over plenty of it, but some things are really quite clear. So for example, one thing that
I don't think it's even really contested, is that if you have an abortion,
your next pregnancy is far more likely to end with a premature delivery. And we're talking a significant
increase of risk. And if you have several abortions, you're
even more likely in your next pregnancy. And of course, a premature delivery
comes with all sorts of dangers, complications, costs and emotional turmoil. And so, that's one significant risk. If you look on the NHS
website, even there, they will admit that one in ten abortions encounter
complications. That's quite a high number. When you think about any kind of
surgery in the UK, you're meant to sign off, you know, the risks. And sometimes it's one in
10,000; it's... they're tiny risks. With abortions, there's a significant risk. Of course, yeah. And with taking those tablets. There's huge risks aren't there? And the mother, during lockdown
would be in her bathroom, in agony. It's very dangerous. There's danger of hemorrhaging. There was a leaked email from an
NHS worker, which show that two women have already died during lockdown. In these at home... I mean, this is back to the back streets. This is, DIY at home abortions.
There's no medical attention. And in fact, here in the UK, the abortion industry will send you those pills without even examining you. You might not even be pregnant or
you might be 24 weeks pregnant. You might be 30 weeks pregnant. Way too
late for the use of those pills. Oh, so they're advised to use up
to how many? Up to about 12 weeks, but some women use them after? Well, there's nothing to... I mean, there was a kind of a sort of secret shopper type
campaign that happened recently, and the abortion
industry was caught granting abortion pills to people for any
reason, but also at any stage of pregnancy because of course they
can't check that you're actually pregnant or how pregnant you are. So there's nothing to stop a woman saying
I'm 12 weeks pregnant when she knows that she's 16 weeks and she'll get those pills. She may even believe that she's 12 weeks,
but it's notoriously difficult to be sure. And that's why there's a medical
examination to make sure. But not now during lockdown,
they'll just send the pills out to anyone and it's dangerous. Obviously. It's always dangerous for the
unborn child. There's never such a thing as a safe
abortion, but now it's really dangerous for the women as well. Is there an encouragement for
couples, women, who are expecting a baby that don't want the baby, to encourage
them to give it up for adoption? Absolutely. You know, I think, I'm no expert
in this. Friends of mine say that during pregnancy it's actually
important to encourage people, you can be the parents. Yes. But of course there's also
adoption there, you know. So, a friend of mine explained that
if you talk about adoption too early on, in the pregnancy, it can actually encourage
a sort of separation of bonding. So that was his advice. But anyway, absolutely, there's a real
myth, you know. There's a real myth that there aren't enough people out there
to adopt. What are we going to do with all these babies? There are people out there There are lots of people. There are people who
desperately want babies. So, I've got a friend who it took
him about two years to adopt. They've been waiting
and waiting and waiting. And do you know that there are, there
are very long waiting lists in this country of people who are desperate
to adopt and they can't, and you know why they can't adopt? Because these
babies are not surviving the womb. Yes. Almost a hundred percent. To the nearest percentage, 100 percent of unwanted
babies are killed in the womb. zero per cent escape alive for adoption. We just don't really have a culture
of adoption in this country because there are people queuing up to adopt. And, but it's very rare for
a baby to be voluntarily relinquished at birth for adoption. It's realistically, the two options given
by the doctor and by our culture is, abortion or have the baby and keep it. But adoption is a wonderful gift to
give, to give that child the gift of life and the gift of a family, that's going to love that child so much. It's a wonderful thing. It's a courageous thing. And I think it's an admirable
decision for anyone to make. Is there any research Dave on Christians having abortion? It's a very interesting question. As a team, we've just been talking
about this. Now in the States, for example Yes. So in the States, there's something
called the Guttmacher Institute and they've done quite comprehensive research and one study showed that
of those who had an abortion, One in eight of those identified
as born again Christians in the States. Now when you kind of put all the figures
together, what that will show you is Evangelicals in the US
aren't as likely to have an abortion, as the population at large. Yes. But they're still pretty
likely to have an abortion. Yes. We don't have that data here in the UK. And that's something we're looking
to try and get actually, we're looking to try and find out what is the
abortion rate in the Church actually. Sure. Because really for someone like you, I
mean, in many ways you're a prophetic voice for a time such as this, and
you're speaking to the world, the world doesn't often listen,
but that doesn't mean you don't keep speaking; but then we've got the Church,
where we have a greater influence. What would you want to say
to the Church, and to church leaders for a time such as this? Yeah. Thank you. Well do you know, it's very easy.
Once the time such as this has passed, it's very easy to look back
and say what we should have done. And we look back at, for example, the
German Church and the rise of the Nazi party and everything that happened there. And it's very easy to say, Oh, you
know, we wouldn't have been like that. We'd have been like Bonhoeffer. We'd have stood up and, you
know, spoken out for life. But, we're in exactly
the same position today. There's a Holocaust
really - raging on our watch. And the question is,
how are we responding? You know. I think of Esther in Esther chapter 4.
She was uniquely placed by God, in a position of influence for that time. But she had to make a decision. She... it wasn't automatic. She had to take her life in her hands,
go before the King and advocate for the lives of her Jewish nation. And we're at this moment in
time that's not going to be repeated. And the unborn child is our neighbour. This is what we need to understand. This is not just some issue. It's not some political debate. These are real people,
facing an awful plight. They can't speak for themselves. And do you know, it's not
an optional thing. You know, Psalm 31:8 says,
be a voice for the voiceless. It's not a suggestion. It's a command. Jesus in the
parable of the Good Samaritan, he lifts up the Samaritan
as the example of what love looks like. Yes, love is risky. It takes action. It pays the price. And of course at the Cross, Jesus
shows us the ultimate example. And so, as the Church, we've got to
see the unborn child as God sees them. And we've got to act in the way that
God will have us act; because this greatly upsets God. This grieves
his heart, each individual child made in his image - violently killed. And he's not happy with this. And yet somehow many of us just
sort of seem to tolerate it. And it doesn't seem to touch our hearts
in the way it touches his heart. And so we've got to stand
up and share God's heart for this. And, speak about it.
And not be afraid to teach about it. Yeah. I mean, here in the UK at least, precious
few churches really teach on this. And so I've grown up in church in
my life, got many Christian friends. If I ask people, you know, have you
ever heard a sermon on abortion? Almost no one has. And so what that means of
course, is we're being taught by The BBC and Hollywood and the Guardian,
what to think about abortion, but the Bible is not silent on this, and God
has a lot to say on it, and we need to take it as seriously as he takes it. Absolutely. Your website, Dave, to get
more information, resources? Yeah.Thank you. So I'll give you two, if that's all right? So the work that I'm most
involved with, Brephos, is helping churches to respond to abortion. So that's Brephos.org. Brephos.org. And that's really a resource to
the Church to teach about abortion and to take action and really to, you
know, to see it as God sees it. Sure. But, and that's, especially
for church leaders, that's especially a resource for church leaders to use. We really want to help you
to teach about abortion. It's got to start with teaching
because if we don't know what we're up against, how are we going to respond? And the other website I'd like
to point people towards - Brephos is a part of this, - is CBRUK, Great. cbruk.org. And really, that's all about
mobilising ordinary people, training them up to become advocates for life. We've got apologetics training. You can get educated on the facts. You can join one of our
voluntary teams. And, we're all about bringing the
lessons from the history of social reform. How do they do it in the past? How did we overturn the
transatlantic slave trade? You know, how did
we tackle child labour? How did the Civil
rights movement prevail? There are principles
that we can learn from that we can apply today. And CBRUK is all about training
people up to expose this injustice. And our mantra is, look we
don't need to protest abortion. We just need to expose it and it protests
itself, so people can come and be part of that movement to see and end to abortion, and that's what we're believing for in our life time. Well, Dave Brennan, thank you so much
for joining us and educating us on this. Thank you very much. Thank you. Wow. What a challenge we've heard today. Let's pray. Let's get educated. Let's do what we can, for a time such
as this. Save lives of people, babies. In the name of Jesus. Amen.
