Facing the Canon with Nicky Gumbel

[Music] I think we've known each other for about 25 years Nikki I think it's 65 years we've known each other a long time we have actually we really have and kind of we've liaised them worked together on various initiatives and it's been a joy so I'm delighted to have this opportunity just to hear a little bit about your journey where were you born Nikki I was born in London yeah right in the heart of London I was born in Hyde Park Corner which is now a hotel but it was a hospital back in back in those days you grew up in London grew up in London yep now your parents your father originated from Germany my father was a German Jew he was an agnostic and an athiest bye-bye sort of religion if you like but he was he was Jewish by culture he was a cultural Jew what effect did that have on on him and his family well he well he was he was one of the he came from a family back which I knew absolutely nothing until very recently about six months ago the Judaica Museum in Berlin contacted me and said they were researching my family and I knew nothing about my family because my father never spoke about his family at all and so I knew absolutely nothing and I never understood why he wouldn't speak you you couldn't get anywhere near finding anything about his past his life his education what he done nothing at all about his past so growing up you didn't know that he was a German Jew when I was 14 my mother took me for a walk and said your father is German and Jewish and you were never to speak to him about it and I never did from that from that moment onwards I never raised the conversation I never got anywhere near it so was there anything to talk about because no there's very little to talk on because actually it's very interesting if you have one area of your life that you can't talk about you you put walls of protection because any question might get somewhere near it so you end up the only thing you can talk about with safety as the weather you can talk about that Jill heart's content so I talked to my father a lot about the weather we used to discuss it every day he'd listen to the radio and if the conversation ever got too close he'd say it's it's a lovely day today it's beautiful sunshine or it's a lot of rain out there because he won and now I understand it because funny enough when I when when I the Judaica Museum contacted me and they asked me to talk I said I don't know very much I'll tell you everything I know because since he's died I found out he died in 1981 so I've had a lot of and my mother died in 1986 so after they died I contacted what I knew his sister and I I asked her to tell me everything that she was prepared to tell me and I wrote all that down so I knew a little bit but then when they contacted me I I said look I'll tell you everything I know will you send me everything you know and they sent me the family tree and I discovered my I've got a great grandfather who was Moses Abraham that's you know they're all all in the in the family and but I also discovered why he didn't want to talk about it because each each member of the family had told you which concentration camp they died in and you know just when you if you've lost all your family like that you it wasn't his immediate family because he managed to get his parents out and he got his sister out and one cousin but you know it would I understand now because as you go through life you experience painful things and you know how hard it is to talk about things that are painful and then you multiply that by a thousand and you think I understand now why you didn't want to talk about those things yes so your father was a barrister my father's a barrister yes and he met your mother who was also a barrister yes and his father was a barrister my mother's father was a Barret my mama both my children that I have three two men qualify barrister one of them right now is doing her bar exams so that was both my sister is a barrister Ceaser QC yes my uncle was a barrister if we'd had a cat it would have been embarrassed now you you you mentioned that your father was an agnostic atheist your mother was also an atheist no no my mother I never described herself as an atheist she just had no interest really she had she but she didn't go to church but I don't think she was in any way hostile to faith I mean she was when I became a Christian she just said you know that's fine as long as it doesn't change your life you know so you went off to Eton so what was it like for you I mean at that time would you have described yourself as anything agnostic at school I think it was I hadn't really thought about it I was not interested I mean there was no religion in my household and so I never thought about it but when I was at school I started to think about it because we did re religious education I had to write essays and I had to sort of think about what did I think about this and I came to the conclusion that I was Nathan you know I thought about it I was rather pretentious teenager and I call myself a logical determinist and I sort of I write this essay disproving the existence of God one of my re Nessen submit such was the state of re in the school that I went to that they put it forward for a prize for religious mothers so your the skills of embarrass that were already there surfacing oh but what about Chapel you had to go as compulsory Chapel every day yeah I mean I literally closed my ears I just did not want to hear I thought it was bored by it I didn't like going to Chapel I didn't want to listen I to my knowledge I never listened to a single thing I heard in Chapel that was a time to you know to think about other things so now the zone out and it's completely switched off but from there you went off to Cambridge to study law and you shared a room with we shared rooms well we had rooms next door to each other Nicky Lee had been we've been two friends at school so I known him since I was 12 and it so happened that when I arrived at first day at at University I discovered that we had rooms next door to each other which was an amazing thing but I gather you warned him about Christians at Cambridge yes should they call at the door yes well I I had I had met some Christians in in my gap year in the States and I was deeply suspicious about them deeply suspicious particularly about their smiles I thought there was something very very suspicious and dodgy about them and I had met one in my first week at Cambridge University where I was and and I I had saw the conversation with him and then he started at this weird sort of talking about Jesus and I thought this is so weird and whenever I saw him I would cross literally across the road and to avoid him because I thought he was so odd and I said to Nikki whatever you do don't let those Christians in them in the room that they're completely crazy keep them out thank you thank you thank you yeah there was one particular Valentine's Day when you returned from a ball and Nicky who was at that time dating Scylla came back from a meeting to announce to you that they become Christians yeah so yeah what how did you respond to that I was horrified I was absolutely huh I mean there was such nice people and I thought you know what can I do to help them yes you know they've they I've got to help them because that was the very good friends I thought what can I do I'd better find out something about this because I knew nothing I really knew I thought I've got to research it I've got to read about philosophy I've got to read about all the world religions I've got to really research this in a way in which I can help them but it would it was late at night so I I yeah I looked on my bookshelves I was reading John Paul Sartre at the time that was anything I'd sort of mean and then I look but I looked on my bookshop and I had this old Bible that I had for re at school it was a very dusty old Bible and I literally I blew the dust off it and I started reading it that night I started reading the New Testament I don't know why I started reading the New Testament rather than the old test but I didn't know where to start but for some reason I started reading the New Testament I started with Matthew's Gospel I read all the way through Matthew's Gospel all the way through mark all the way through Luke and I got about halfway through John's Gospel three o'clock in the morning I fell asleep following morning I kept on reading I read all the way through that day all the way through the next day all the way through the next day I was a student I didn't have any work to do so I read the whole New Testament and did you have an epiphany did something happen I wouldn't say that but I it rang true to me as I read the words of Jesus gospel it I thought this is true this is actually okay this is a description of how the world operates this is the description of of people that I can see all around me Jesus's description of how people responded to him the parable of the sower I could see that happening in the university right at that time but different people responding in different ways which were that it was it was it was just that sense that this is true and I didn't want to become a Christian because I thought yeah this is the most terrible life I've seen these people you know I I do not want to be like them and I but what it's true so at some point I'm gonna have to recognize that may be my deathbed is the appropriate moment to do that so enjoy life to the full have fun and then on your deathbed you know repent and that would be a yes but then I just had this sense you can't do that you know that there's no integrity about that and I had this sense and maybe now I would look back and say I heard as clearly probably as I've heard the Holy Spirit the Lord speaking to me and saying basically it's now or never this is your moment you have to decide and I basically just said yes I mean it was literally that I said I can already I was totally on my own yeah well no I was just I don't think it was even it was just it was just okay yes and at that moment I experienced what I've been looking for all my life without being conscious of it yes I found suddenly I had this relationship that brought meaning and purpose and direction and to my life and I was not conscious of I never thought for a moment I haven't got any purpose in my life I didn't have I thought I was living life to the fullest having a great life I was you know first year at university having a bull but deep down there was something missing there was a void and an emptiness and I know this is true every human being that were created for this relationship with God until you find it there's always that void and you can fill it with other stuff you can try and fill your life with all that stuff but you're always I was never living in the present I was always looking for the next thing the next experience the next relationship the next whatever it is to try and fill this void and at that moment I experienced that Jesus is the bread of life Jesus is the way to life and in all its fullness did you express it that you had become a Christian that you began to follow Jesus straightaway absolutely I mean I was my first like I was totally full on from front I mean this was this was 48 hours basically because it was in the middle of reading the New Testament that this happened so this was 48 hours after Nicky and so they'd come back and said there's two days later really that that this moment occurred and I was full-on I mean straight away because once I discovered it I just thought it's so obvious everybody's gonna realize when I tell them but it's true so I thought you know all my friends cuz I didn't have any friends who were Christians yes so I thought I just gonna go run tell them all they'll be so pleased you know cuz because as I found the answer to life I'm gonna tell them the answer for life and though there'll be so pleased and now become Christians instantly so I went random not and all that Devils went in and tell them I Mike's reaction I was talking to a friend of mine who's here tonight Peter Doyle who well he was there the time you were there at the time that's right yeah he was recounting the story that you've just articulated obviously you you made an impact straightaway because I didn't know that there was there was Nicky Lee but I became a Christian then there were three other Nicky so there are five Nicky's we'd all been great friends we used to have these lunch parties which were that Nicky exclusive lunch parties party and we'd finally found some some women who had called Nicky and so we had included them in them in the lunch box and we made some honorary Nikki's as well so but so when we all became Christians and it wasn't just us the honorary Nicky's became Christians as well and and so there was you know it did I think I wasn't conscious of it at the time but now talking to people who were there and they say you were an absolute pain Pippo who eventually became your wife I gather you took paper to a ball you're in your final year and that was a significant time - I know people since I was 17 right when I was 17 before I was a Christian I was you know I was living in London it was my year off between school University and I was just a party girl basically that was my life parties and I was a member of a night club in the Kings Road and people was wanted to get her friend into a nightclub she had a Swedish friend visiting her and she wanted to get into and she asked a friend of hers how'd you get into this nightclub and this friend said oh ring Nicky Gumbel he'll get you in yes so I just said oh come round and so she came around to her and we used to get every night we literally every night we went to his nightclub so I took her to this nightclub and that was and that was the first time I met her then when I when I came to faith in Jesus when I had this encounter with Jesus and I was telling everybody 10 days later after this I I was at a party where she was at this party and I had gone to that party determined to tell the first person that I saw about Jesus and that the first person I saw was her on the on the dance floor and I thought right I'm gonna go and tell her right Jesus and I've been to a talk on evangelism and they they'd said the first thing you need to do is to establish the fact that the person needs Jesus so I thought right I'm gonna establish the fact that she needs Jesus right so I went up to her on the dance floor I didn't want to waste any time with polite conversation I just went straight up to her and that's when I said you look awful yeah you really need Jesus well as you can imagine this put her off for a very long time and when she did finally become a Christian it was through somebody totally different so that was that was that was so she avoided me after that obviously but in the about six months later she went to this place there was a place in London called the kitchen yes where which was started by some Christians which was a kind of a place where people could come and explore Christianity it was kind of like a way of cooked and prayed yeah yes and she was the first person to go to this place and I I remember when I went in there I saw her name it's the first signature in the in the guestbook and I realized that something was going on with her and she she came to a faith she had her own personal encounter with Jesus which she didn't think anything was anything to do with what had happened to me yes she just thought I'd gone completely mad and we but we would became friends and we were friends for about two and a half years and then what you were talking about at the ball I hadn't invited her somewhat one of the other Nikki's had invited her yes no not as not as a girlfriend but just because we were we were sort of you know making up a party and and I was a very enthusiastic Christian I was not into you know relationships dating any of that stuff I was full out for Jesus and so I invite the Mabel I invited my parents I didn't want you know I wasn't going to have any of this sort of you know so but he had invited her and for some reason we ended up dancing together talking together and you know it's sort of I was always in bed by 10 o'clock I had a reputation in the university for always being in bed by 10:00 which as a student is really sad and you had to be a very sad student to be in bed and here was three o'clock in the morning came six o'clock in the morning and we were still dancing and then we were out on the hunting down the river and then we were playing tennis and word went around the university I was definitely going to marry her which of course we have been married thirty four years now how did your parents react to you becoming a Christian I think my father was less worried about me becoming a Christian than that I might not be a barrister that was his biggest worry I think you know there was no one in our family who had not being a barrister and the thought that I might and immediately I was thinking about doing other things I wanted I wanted to do this with the rest of my life and that was the one thing I knew and I think that became very clear and I think that was his biggest concern was that I would waste the opportunity because they had given me an amazing opportunity in life and they would work I understand it now I really understand it they had worked hard you know my father came over here with nothing he came over to England with absolutely nothing and he worked hard my mother had nothing there I mean they they had they had work they'd say they send us they'd given us a fantastic education they made it possible for me to become a barrister and here now was the thought that I might leave it all yeah and I think that was their their big fear but you went to London to become a barrister yeah I did i I I came to London right I trained I did my bar exams and I and my father had said in those days it was so different my father had arranged my pupilage when I was born I mean it when the day that I was born he he got around a young friend a young barrister who thought was going to be very successful and he said to him you know my son has been born will you take him as your pupil um this guy said of course no my dear fellow are taken as my pupil and actually by the time that I was I was 21 when I was called to the bar yeah by the time I was called to the bar he had become a QC so he couldn't take me as a pupil but he arranged for someone to take me as as a pupil in one of the most prestigious sets of chambers you know I had everything sort of given to be handed to me on a plate in a way and that was in that was it yeah well I did a total of almost ten years of law including my law degree bar exams pupil aids and then practicing yeah and when did you sense the core to ordination to ministry I think pretty well that that day in you know at university I mean I think it was immediate dessert I wanted to spend the rest of my life telling people about Jesus and that's basically it I just this hadn't had this amazing experience and I wanted I wanted all the people who were like me I knew that that so many people in the world would like me they were living a life at one level that was was fine but in another level there was something deeply missing some lack of purpose lack of ultimate meaning that they hadn't found the reason for their existence and that Jesus came to bring life and life and all all its fullness and I just want everyone to know about that I couldn't see why I wouldn't want to spend all my life doing that but I I applied to I immediately you know I went to see the bishop but the bishop was away in Australia and then he couldn't see me for another and it just didn't work out so and but the door at the bar opened so I I did that and I and I loved it I really love being a barrister I just had such fun it was it's an amazing job and and I and it was an amazing training too because your usual I was shy I was you know nervous of speaking and it forces you to speak and it's cuz you know this picture me rushing around was an introvert rushing around camp because I was forced into it because I felt it so strongly but my natural characteristic is is an introvert yes and so the bar trained me to speak it trained me also to write I had to write opinions it traded me to counsel people because you're giving advice to people so it was a fantastic training but all the time I was waiting for a moment I was although there came there were times when I enjoyed it so much I thought actually I'd love to do this for the rest of my life and I read about people like Xena's the lawyer and I thought yes you know you can be a Christian and a lawyer so maybe I should do this and but sandy Miller who was the vicar of of Holy Trinity that was the church you attended yeah I was a tenor like parish church yes I started going there in 1976 we started game there and sandy said take a long term view he said look down the line think about not just you know two years five years but ten years twenty years down the line supposing you achieved all your ambitions yes so as a barrister if you achieve all your ambitions as a barrister what would you what would you be well you end up I suppose as a High Court judge or the Court of Appeal or something do you want to do that I thought no I really don't want to do that I have no desire to do that at all and then think about ordination get it a being yes doing what I'm doing now is that as minister in the Church of England spending your life if you if you do everything you would like to do and actually God has been so good to us we've done far more than I ever imagined possible but but just the thought of being full-time having the opportunity to tell people about Jesus in 20 years time I thought that is what I would love to be doing so why why put all your energy into doing something which even if you achieve everything you want to you don't want to be there whereas the other thing I really didn't want to do now your father passed away and it was a year later that you went off to Wickliffe Hall it was a yes it was a it was a couple of years later later do you think it was almost like your you know you need to honor your father maybe that was all part of the story yeah maybe maybe maybe my father I mean my father was not a young man when he died um he was he was nearly 80 when he died I'm so so he was when he got married he was 49 when he got married so yeah he was he was he was he didn't die young but but I think I I think although my father never gave me any encouragement I think now some of the things that his sister said after he yes after he died I think much more went in yes then he let on I think he didn't want to give me any encouragement but I think in his heart I believe there were things going on and so yes it was a couple of years after that I went on went off to Whitley yes and studied theology yes and then you started to look for a church and I gather you looked nine churches is that right was it nine Church nine churches and none of them worked most of them to understand I mean it was it was it was a really interesting experience actually because the time I found most difficult was probably Theological College yes because I had been used to being a barrister which I had loved I was doing a job I loved and I I think what I realized when I got to fear logic college was that far too much of my self-esteem my self-worth came from my job and something I got to Theological College and I was writing essays before I wrote opinions and people paid me to write in the opinions now I was writing essays and they weren't paying me and they were writing this is not a very good essay and it was and my morale just because I realized that so much my self-esteem was tied up in what I did and David Hawkins who was now is now bishop it was then a then accurate in a church in in Oxford said to me a key thing to realize is that that what matters is not who what you do but who you are yeah and you know that your esteem should your your cause yourself worth your comes from from who you are not from what you do and that was a really painful lesson for me to try and come to grips with so I I had I had really struggled with with with that it was a wonderful time in other ways because I was able to study theology and to really think through issues of it that and face some of the the challenges to faith so what happened then Nicky with I mean you explore these nine churches some turned you down you turned others down well not very I didn't think we turned down very many actually I think we I think we were turned down basically all for good reasons I mean also very good reason they were just not appropriate they were just they just you know there wasn't one or two said we would have offered you the the job but someone else has turned up or you know the bishop said we can't have accurate now whatever but but basically we ended up with nothing yes so I we left the we left wait cliff we came back to London and I started to look at the options you know what could I do and I for the only time in my life I drew I mean well I didn't I never got to drawing unemployment benefit but I went and signed on that was a very very humbling experience actually to be totally out of you know out of work have nothing yes I would not have a job and to have have left the bar where I was having amazing time and to have left Wickliffe and found myself unemployed yeah yeah so so then how did you end up becoming accurate HDB well there was no place there was no there were everything's changed thank the Lord now time was quite negative about ordenanza returning what he said they couldn't I mean just basically that was they could not return and therefore I could not come back although htb were it was saying we'd like you to come back he said it was impossible yeah for me to return but I think I think sandy was able to persuade him that it was a bit sad to send someone off for three years to Theological College and then leave them without a job and so I he was he relented and he said okay and so that was an I never expected it I had completely ruled out that possibility in my own mind because he'd said it was impossible I thought that's it that's not going to happen so I got this phone call from Sandy who just said you know would you like and I could not believe it it was like all my dreams to come true in one moment and invited you to go and be the Cure out there yeah and I did I hope the best he'd invite me to be you know unordained lay work or something but but to be in it was extraordinary and totally surprising and what a remarkable man sandy what a great major amazing so too in many ways to be coached and nurtured and mentored with him must be very humbling and exciting it was amazing absolutely amazing somebody when I was looking when I just didn't know what to do I didn't know what I was an American pastor gave me an interesting piece of advice because I said you know I don't know what to do I did it he said the only piece of advice I give you is to hitch your wagon to a star and I knew that sandy was the star that I wanted - because I'm mad the way that he he he ran the church I'm mad when he ran his family I'm mad the way he ran his life and I wanted to learn from him and so it's a huge privilege to go and be able to actually spend 19 years as his curity learning from him so I think it's probably one of the longest curacy thank you obviously initially probably thought oh I'm gonna go there for three years and ended up obviously staying 19 part now 19 when you first started h-2b was very different what it is today yes I mean it was going through a transition wasn't it well when I when I first joined the church in 1976 there were virtually no young people in the church at all and there was I didn't even anyone under the age of 50 in the congregation of htb and sandy started the first small group at HTTP with about six people and literally they we met in his house he had six people that he'd sort of found in various places and I remember the evening so well because although they're only six of us Andy preached and he preached like he was Billy Graham in Wembley Stadium you know he literally preached the gospel and at the end of it he called people forward he wanted to give their lives to Christ and one young woman came forward and gave her life to Christ that very first night and then she went off to university and he said I'm gonna bring my friend who's at Cambridge and I could ask him to look after you which he did and then he married her and he has just been appointed the Bishop of Durham so that was the visual darkness well being just in worldly the visual Darren's wife was the first person who came forward that at that small group amazed and that group grew and it grew until it there were about 30 people meeting in his house and it just it couldn't the house couldn't sustain it any longer and then we went into small groups and we used to meet once a month all together and that was called the joint slightly unfortunately yeah and then that group just grew and grew and grew and grew and then it's like we started an evening service and then yeah just kept on growing now one one of your predecessors Charles mono he wrote this course called alpha and I think his wife actually came up with the name alpha didn't change yes and then another curate called John Irvin took the course yeah kind of added him a bit of bit more to it and then sandy said to you Nikki I want you to take this course yeah so tell us tell us how what what's the journey of that was so many people have been involved I didn't want to do it when sandy asked me to take it on I said that I didn't really want to do it because it was then of course for people who were already Christians and I was interested because of my own experience or in speaking to people who were not Christians so I didn't want to do it but there was no one else to do it at that stage I was the only curious so I had to do it and on the second course so I took it on in October 1990 on the second course I had a small group so we had about that stage there were about a hundred people on the course and I had a small group that was made up entirely of people who weren't Christians they had all come because they'd been to the carol service yes and they were guests at a carol service and they all come on the course and they were in the small group and every single one of them encountered Jesus all of them were filled with the Holy Spirit on the weekend away and all of them went on to leadership positions in the church and it was at that moment that I realized that this course could be used to reach people outside the church yes so we changed we changed the order of the talks we changed the I said not hugely but we changed everything of people outside of the church so when before in the small groups who was a Bible study well people who weren't Christians didn't want to do Bible study when we did that we did send out question and we said you know what could we improve they said we only enjoyed the small groups when we were allowed to discuss at all so we checked that's maybe one example of a change we made and but we made it aimed at a people outside the church and there are so many more people outside of the church in England as you know then there are inside the church that it started to grow very rapidly and we started to get hundreds of people coming on the course every time and we have done every time since and this is the 66th small group that I've been in on be helped in in a row since then um yeah we always help in a small group we don't lead a small group where we help in to help in the small how we've done that 66 courses in a row now and you see hundreds and hundreds of people every every time turning up queuing around the church to get in people who are outside of the church coming to find out about Jesus so on your current course how many people are attending it we've got 725 on the current course yeah but that the summer course is the smallest of the year and in the autumn course we had 999 we didn't quite make it that would then there have been 10,000 by the end by buckets but then did you then realize hey look this is a course it's not shouldn't just be full HD be it shouldn't be for its partner churches and the church that you planted when did you realize that that you could this was something that God has birthed and to kind of equip other churches around the world was there a like a moment that you realize this a Baptist pastor came in 1991 came on the course and went back to back Hurst Hill Baptist Church and started running it and then other pastors Baptist ministers Anglican minister started ringing me up and saying could you explain to me how you run out for I spent hours on the phone explaining to them how to run up I thought this is such a time-consuming activities I've better get them all together in one room I'll explain to all of them at one time and then I'll never have to do it again yes so we got together and a thousand of them turned I'm an ELISA thousand people in May 1994 first first Alfa congressman a thousand people turned up for the first half of conference and I told them all I had two amazing days telling everybody and I thought that's it I've told them I'll never need to do that again but then there was someone at the conference who said would you come do it in Sheffield and someone else said would you come do it in ed Brooke and then very soon after that someone said would you come and do it in Hong Kong and so we started doing these conferences we sandy and I would do 20 conferences a year every year and then we realized 20 conferences a year is not going to cover the globe No so about only relatively recently about three years ago we thought let's train up teams to run these conferences and because the demand for them is huge globally so in 2011 we did a thousand conferences around the world this year were on course to do 2,300 conferences and I'm hoping eventually we'll get to do 5,000 conferences because that that's how many to train up I mean in India in the last five years it's gone from no churches running alpha to twenty thousand churches running out I think so and they just want training all these pastors want training yes and they they're thinking that by the end of 2013 they'll have forty thousand churches running out for so how do you train all those pastors you need loads and loads of conferences and and we call them get global alpha training and anyone can do them they're going from New Zealand they're going from Australia they're going from Denmark to Siberia they're gained from everywhere to everywhere I mean you look you look back with gratitude to God and you're looking forward with great anticipation for more because obviously as you you said I mean take Britain there's more people who don't go to church then go to church but God is using this tool to equip the church and to bring people to him do you get frustrated by the church there's a funny thing to say but I genuinely feel like I'm a bad steward because the this I read I see this amazing gift and only 18 million people around the world have done it and you think what a big world we live in yeah and what I see on our own course is so many of the people not everybody yes but so many of the people who come on the course cynics skeptics agnostic atheists lapsed churchgoers nominal churchgoers have an encounter with Jesus they're filled with the Holy Spirit their lives are changed and they start doing amazing things and I think how come only 18 million people have done it how can you accelerate this get this to as many people as possible and the same in the UK and I think at least at least two million people have done it in the UK but there are there are a lot more people in the UK who I think if they really knew about it they knew the opportunity they have in a low-key relaxed unthreatening unpressurized environment just come along you know have a meal hear a talk about things that are relevant to life practical hopefully fun talks and then go into a small group in a small group I mean on in this course I love it I'd so look forward to tomorrow night to have been with that group of people they are the most interesting people from all walks of life and that's what people see that wow this is a group of people average age of people on our course is 27 the 75% of the guests are aged between 18 and 35 and there's this amazing fascinating variety of people from all walks of life sitting in a room discussing what they would never discuss anywhere else discussing what what's why we're here what's the purpose of life what's the meaning of life what about forgiveness what you know what happens when you die these very big questions where else can you discuss if you go down the pub and you say your friend what do you think the meaning of life is what are you gonna put ball max you say yeah can we discuss the meaning in life oh you couldn't do it could you are you you can sit you can sit around with a fascinating group of people and and just talk it's a tool that God has used is using and it has huge potential so well it is a huge debt to you John because any bits in it that are vaguely amusing are stories that are stolen from you absolutely no no I mean at you know we have as you said beginning we known each other a long time I've listeners I've listened to your talks and try to learn as much as I can Nikki you recently held a leaders conference Leadership Conference now what prompted that did you did you feel that you know leaders need a little bit more encouragement are you did you feel that you know leaders aren't as sharp as they could be what what was the motive there are seven thousand churches in the UK running Alfa yes what I've observed and it's been going on now for nearly 20 years what I've observed is that the churches with good leadership run it really well and fruitfully and people come to face or people join the church and and then you look around everything rises and falls on leadership what you see in the church is true also in business if a business is well led it tends to do well yeah if a nation is well led it tends to do well so everything rises and falls on leadership and so I just we ought to at least to address this issue of leadership so two years ago we we started that we did a Leadership Conference 750 people turned up last year we did another one 1800 people turned up and two weeks ago we were in the Albert Hall 4300 people turned out from 964 churches and it was an extraordinary event it reminded me of that first Alpha Conference yes something there was something unusual about it something that was very special about it and a sense that God's hand I suppose in all the great thing about the or leaders conference and when I looked at the schedule is that you know you're inspiring leaders early churches but you're inspiring people in business and people in all walks of life basically for in any leadership position to lead yes lead with integrity yes therefore streams are commerce culture community and church because if the church is to have an influence in our society it's it can't just be that your church leaders it has to be the leaders in in commerce has to be the leaders in the spheres of influence sure government media arts entertainment these are all spheres of influence which have to be affected if if the nation has to be changed listening here tonight is a man who has influenced us both Bishop David pitches absolutely and he he was he connected with a man called John Wimber and as a consequence of that connection in brought him over to England and I know that John whimpers ministry at HDB had a deep impact upon you huge impact yes they're so grateful to David for inviting him to this country because it had a huge impact on our own local church and of course way beyond our own local church but he came in 1981 I think it was I was quite cynical at the time about him because I'm ashamed to say but partly because he was an American but I've seen since repented of that yeah then we've learned a huge amount from many many Americans owe them a huge debt but at the time I was a little bit cynical about sort of American Christianity which I thought was not very British and stated thing there's yeah so anyway we had I had him on Sunday night and you know he pretty he talked about peeping filled with the spirit people being healed I was very cynical about it Monday night he came and he spoke in a room downstairs in our church called the spring yes and it was the entire leadership of the church at that time about 60 people and he had various words of knowledge as he called them for people and people came forward and first word of knowledge was for a man who injured his back chopping wood when he was 14 and this guy came down and responded to it and then Jeremy Jennings who was back was healed yeah and then he had a word of knowledge but so there's a young woman here who's barren and we thought no one in England will respond to that yeah and he waited a very long time and eventually this young woman came down the the spring step like that yeah and she came down the steps of the spring and she and John said to her what's your name and she said Sarah but of course there's good biblical precedent for that and John prayed for her and nine months later she gave birth to the first of their five children well their conception didn't take place in the spring but the following night he was in he was in church has and there were about 200 obvious which was their whole church basically with that yes and I was still cynical I was I was practicing a barrister at the time I was there my three-piece pinstripe suit stiff white collar and tie and paper and I were late and you know how it is in the Anglican Church we fill up from the back yes so you see the only seats that were left for the front the front two seats yes so he gave his talk and he talked again about words of knowledge and he said various members of team that had words of knowledge people stood and then he said one of the team had had a word of knowledge that there were ten people here with athlete's foot now I happen to have athlete's foot but I was not going to stand up nine people stood yeah and my wife Pippa was going like this that's you yeah yeah so eventually the pain in my ribs was so intense I thought it'd be easier to stand up so I stood up and this very nice American on the ministry team came over to me and said would you like me to pray for your athlete's foot so I said no thank you very much I said I'm perfectly happy having that food yes yeah it's find it very satisfying be able to scratch it when it itches so he said well is there anything I could pray for so I said well I would really love to experience the power of the Holy Spirit in my life he said okay we'll pray for that and after you've been praying for about 30 seconds I experienced the love of God God's love being poured into my heart by the Holy Spirit and for me there was I know it's not true for everyone but for me there was a physical manifestation of that yes it's like ten thousand volts of electricity going through my body and in fact it was so powerful I I really couldn't take it anymore this guy who was praying for me this American on the ministry I think he just joined the ministry team because he only had one prayer that he prayed and it was more power law yeah and every time he prayed this prayer the power increased so eventually I didn't know what to do I thought the only thing I could do is pray against him so I started praying no more power but because he is the only prayer he had he can and so thence there was a shouting match going on between the two of us and I think John would had difficult people in his meetings before he said oh tape that one out and they carried me out through the French windows of church house and as I was being carried out he said God is giving to that man the ability to tell people about Jesus and I've often looked back at that moment because what it taught me was that this is not just for special people this is for all of us all of us can have this experience of God's love being poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit and that's of course at the heart about for every alpha weekend we people have the opportunity to experience God's love for that not just to know it but to feel it yeah to feel it in their hearts and there's a big difference between knowing here that God loves you and feeling it and what Paul writes is the love of God God's love for us is poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit who has been given to us that's what I experienced that's and again it's something I wanted other people to have the opportunity to experience God's love and that's at the heart of course of the Alpha weekend and we've seen the transformation that has in people's lives when they experience God's love for them I was at that meeting were you yeah you were you did you put on an American accent I know and I remember when they were carrying you and I remember when John Wilbur spoke over you so that would you say that that was a time of empowerment is that the wrong word I mean obviously something happened to you in Cambridge but this was different I think yes I think it was a very significant moment for me not I remembered John Collins asking me John Collins who was another of the had been Victor of Trinity asking me because he was the vicar at the time this is way back in 1981 pajamas The Vicar and I remember him asking me saying have you been leading many people to Christ this week's this was on the Sunday afterwards and I said no you know I and it didn't immediately happen that I started it was only really I supposed maybe I will all those years I was very unsuccessful unfruitful in terms of evangelist yeah I tried everything you know I had tried every method of telling people down from the way I I talked to people when that first danced down to knocking on people's doors questionnaires which started off you know you know do like fish and chips and then doubt what do you want to ask Jesus into your life and but but for me that most of my my had have not been very fruitful and that was why when I when suddenly this small group all became you know encountered Jesus were filled with the spirit I thought this is so different from everything else I've tried suddenly there's something that for at least for for uh for people like me because I'm not some people are you know you are naturally gifted evangelist you stand up there and you know I listen to you and in so many people's lives have been changed thousands and thousands countless tens of thousands have through your preaching but I I'm not like that I don't have that natural gift of advantages and I think you have an a Billy Graham has and other people have for me most of my attempts you know just some of the stories we've been talking about over suffer some of the people you've led to Christ it's amazing amazing stories I didn't have that and I'm not a natural evangelist but what I discovered was that alpha was something that people like me who are not natural evangelist can invite their friends to you and in a very low-key way where you don't need to be particularly gifted you can bring your you can lead your friends to Christ as you look to the future Nicky what what are your your aspirations what are you praying for what do you hope Payne well our vision is to play a part none of this can be done alone it can only be done with all the church together so that's every part of the body of Christ we're not rivals when the same business were one part of one body and it's got to involve every part of the body of Christ that's Catholic Protestant Pentecostal Orthodox every part of the body of Christ it's got to be involved in it but our vision is to play our part we're just a part but to play our part in the rear Vangelis ation of the nation and the transformation of society that's what we want to see the name of Jesus honored again in this nation yes and in every nation that's that's why but it been in terms of the UK that that's our vision to see to see the church is filled again yes with people worshipping Jesus to see to see the society transformed to see to see marriages strengthen though if you think what's happening with marriage and family life in this nation and you see the impact on children talking to a very senior police officer about the riots in England what's the cause he said I think what he sees is a fatherless generation who were with themselves brought up by people who came from a fatherless generation this is now not the first generation and this is having a huge impact on our society so to see family life strengthened marriage strengthened less to see and one of the thrilling things is to see alpha in the prisons your alpha is now in in 85% of the prisons in in the UK and literally tens and thousands of of men and women have come to faith in Jesus Christ many of the we have a caring for ex-offenders program so that they're met at the prison gates people help to find a job a place to live integrate them into the church and the reoffending rate in rather than being 70 80 percent yes is right down it's about 11 percent those who are met at the prison gates helped to find a job how to find a place to live integrated into the church and the vision is to see the crime rate fall and if his satisfy retains the crime rate the prisons emptied more and more men and women come to faith in Jesus a filled with the spirit get excited about Jesus and some of these people are amazing evangelist we have 34 ex-offenders now in our church yeah and they are amongst the most fun characters the most interesting people in the church and amongst the most the best of bringing their friends they bring I remember with the first guy who did did alpha in in prison in 1994 he and his father were arrested for the biggest importation ever of cannabis into this country and while they were awaiting trial they did the first alfa corse and they came to faith they were filled with the holy spirit totally transformed and they got a 12 and a half year sentence but because of their behavior when they were in prison they were led out relatively early and they the son is now there every Sunday in church I mean this has been from now 15 years it must be that he's been coming and he is an amazing evangelist and a great speaker but he immediately did alpha with us he brought all of his friends so he brought you know he brought a whole lot of people from because these guys are struggling with so many things so he had a whole group from Alcoholics Anonymous and he brought them along and that was one group next group were a whole lot of drug addicts a next group were a whole lot of armed robbers you know we had a husband we had a we had a we just had all these people coming into the church it changed the nature of our church for one thing but it also just to see these people's lives and to see they understand what it means for Jesus changed their lives because they understand what it is to be a drug addict to be an alcoholic to be in and out of prison time after time after time they know the difference that Jesus and that Jesus said those who have forgiven much love much and they're passionate and they are they they want and they're fearless to the you know they just tell people they bring their friends III think that you are an apostle in the sense as I know that HDB's committed to church planting you're a pastor you're a teacher you're an evangelist and I do believe that you're a prophet in the sense that you're you're a voice of God today for today's generation and really thank God for you of your wife Pippa and your church hello Jonesy Brompton that's endeavoring to do everything that it can not only for its own parish but for London the United Kingdom and around the world and well done for what you've done so far and keep doing it because it looks like you've got a lot of potential [Applause] [Music] [Applause] hi I'm Jay John I support compassion and compassion supports facing the Canon please enjoy the film we're in a compassion project about 40 kilometers out of Addis and this has been part of a five-day trip with compassion to see the work that they do here what has been amazing for me to see is that these little children here who are sponsored from the age of four or five we then see them grow up and we had an amazing guy last night you had gone all the way through the child sponsorship program had gone to university and is training to be a doctor and I think that's the thing I'd be most struck by seeing the work here is that we 421 pounds then we sponsor a child and totally change their lives real can aim of compression is to break the cycle of poverty so that none of these children who we can sponsor will grow up and their children won't need to be in any of these projects and I think that that is an amazing thing seeing a new generation of children grow up and have access and choices and empowered to do all sorts of things that they can never imagine then we just visited this lovely lady's home where she's just welcomed us in the most amazing way of just making us coffee and popcorn and probably spending about a quarter of her monthly wages just to welcome us to her home and I've now sponsored this little boy and it's amazing to be like heard a little bit about their story and to be part of their story going forward [Music] [Music] you

Channel: Facing the Canon

Views: 55,153

Rating: 4.772512 out of 5

Keywords: facing the canon, j.john, interview, jjohn, j john, philo trust, philo, trust, christianity, Jesus, Lord, God, Holy Spirit, nicky gumbel, rev nicky gumbel, alpha, alpha international, why jesus, why christmas, htb, holy trinity brompton

Id: 3sCruydnwso

Length: 62min 12sec (3732 seconds)

Published: Fri Feb 14 2014