Facing the Canon with Andrew White

not many Christian ministers have 35 armed guards Canon Andrew white works in one of the world's most dangerous cities as the Vicar of Baghdad Andrew is my most unique and eccentric friend you Hannan's to the left of me cannons to the right of me absolutely little cannon here big cannon there let's start at the beginning Andrew where were you born I was born in the East End of London I'm a cockney so why'd you speak like you do now I don't know I didn't live there all my life no just at the very beginning so is that a natural suntan you've got no so what's your origins my origin is my father's Anglo Indian my mother is English and my little boy Josiah when he had put his ethnic identity down school recently he wrote Indian did well it's nice where did you grow up mainly in Kent in their.what my younger son called the dilapidated wasteland growing up what were your aspirations for the future what was it that you wanted to I can tell you because when I was at 10 at school our teacher said to us what do you want to do when you grow up and I said to her I want to do two things you know most people want to read mandiant be no I said I want to be Anita T's and the priest and she said you can only do one thing and you can't be a priest because you're Pentecostal and they don't have priests so I did two things so first of all you became I worked in a nursery and that was at some Thomas's Hospital in London I was the guest man with drugs yes before I was the gas man with sermons so how did you switch from anesthetics to the church one night I was doing my pray by this time I'd become a bit angry King so I did evening prayer according through the Book of Common Prayer and I was praying opposite Big Bear and I said thank you Lord I've achieved everything I ever wanted I got into the hospital I wanted to go to I trained in the area I want to train I was working in the area I once twerking then I said something really dangerous what next Lord and he said I want you to go into the church nice said no you don't and then I realized you never went into the church unless you had to and that was why you're standing looking at Big Bend yes I gave him eventually three days later Oh only three days three days that's quite quick for most of us actually well it seemed a very long time and then you started the journey to go to Theological College that's were met you first time in Cambridge Cambridge very good place you found a wife ideal I found you as my best friend well there you are a yes-no Cambridge she went in study theology and Judaism and Judaism but you also study at Cambridge but you then went and studied at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem why did you go there because my real interest was not in Christianity but Judaism what what created this curiosity I'd always had an interest in Judaism and lecturers that Cambridge in Judaism were far more interesting the lecturers in Christianity far more so so you studied with the rabbis I went to the Hebrew University they were a bit liberal and woolly and then I went to an ultra-orthodox ooh Shiva did we go there don't we one dance there these guys with the big ring lips and the big fur hats it was great we were segregated the women were outside no problem sir no we had fun though it was good so now you've been involved in reconciliation Andrew for years how did that begin it again according to the Jewish press in London when there was a holy war in Cambridge between whom between the Christians trying to convert the Jews and the Jews who didn't want to be converted and I was the only Christian who went to the synagogue every week so they came to me and said we need you to help her so I did and what did you do we've pawned as society court cambridge university jews and christians q jack yes and we got the jews and christians together and started hearing each other's story and that was the very beginning of you beginning to think about recreation but you left Theological College and went to be accurate in Battersea went to be a vacant Clapham and then one day my bishop Bowman said I want to send you to Coventry and he meant it literally he meant it literally I said why me he said because you're one of the few people who understands reconciliation and this job is being director at the International Centre for reconciliation so I went to an interview and you were quite young at the time Oh problematic because you have to be 33 to be cannon in the Church of England you know the age Jesus died when he finished you can start so I went from my interview at 32 and had to wait until I was 33 before I could start cuz you weren't quite mature enough you needed a little while sure now what did that role what was what did you have to do what were you responsible for I was responsible for dealing with reconciliation issues around the well we had this community courted community of the cross of nails and so much of Coventry is reconciliation rule had been looking back to what happened on the 14th of November 1940 when the old cathedral was bombed yes when they wrote those two words Father forgive on the walls when the cost of nails was formed and I went there and I said we have to deal with one of the biggest issues of reconciliation in the world today which is how we relate to the Middle East and the Islamic world so I was working in this round Palestine young ready but I thought I need to go to Iraq that was rather difficult getting into her yes but eventually after everybody saying no I had a very good idea and what was that get my staff together and pray about it and it was the last thing we did we prayed and it worked as Archbishop William temple said when you pray Cohn's sees happen when you don't they don't so let's just go back pre Iraq your work in Iraq you're working in the Middle East hmm and what kind of work were you doing well I was mainly working on things with Israel and a little bit with Palestinians yes and I was doing things like working on the Holy See's recognition of the State of Israel it was very difficult and I was accurate my poor vicar Paul Birkin he's cured used to keep going off to see the Pope it was rather difficult and that was John Paul the second yeah good man I liked him he liked you he liked me as well that was even better yeah until one day I took my wife to see him and I said your holiness this is my wife and he looked at me and said you're why I think he thought I was one of him a couple of years ago there was a pack of cards 52 cards and was the most wanted in a row are they were the most wanted to rock but you knew all sorts of people I tagged in there were 26 of them the year before how did you used to visit people like Yasser Arafat frequently he's a good friend of yours and and so how did you begin relating and getting to know all these different people do you know what I've never said this really before what I didn't how I did it and how I got to know these people was totally bizarre how did I know how did I just walk in to see Arafat whenever I wanted all the Israeli prime minister or the deputy prime minister Barak God only God but as well as having a desire for reconciliation you've got a real heart for the poor and the weak and the vulnerable and the afflicted and both in Israel and Palestine you started to help a lot of sick children laughing but because I'm thinking of the day you rang me in Baghdad and you have said you drew a leg in that go all the way up explain it right so so Andrew and I we were helping some sick children and babies I think there at one time there's quite a lot that we were trying to help him look after and nor as many as now not as many as now but then and they're not I went to see all these children and I got this kind of fatigue like oh boy I can't see any more sick children and and then our worker Hanna he said he said you've got to come you've got to come and see George and I said well who's George and and he said what's this this man it's old man I said no I said I'm done with children I can't go and see old people now and and he started to cry so I had to go and see George and George was blind and he had no legs and he only had one artificial leg so I said to George why have you only got one artificial leg he goes because I can't afford another leg so I said well I'll buy you a leg so he grabs hold of me and he starts kissing me all over my face and he says you're an angel you're an angel an angel I said I don't know George if I'm an angel bastard I'll buy your leg and so then I thought okay where am I gonna buy leg frog well it's not like you can go to Tesco's is it and then say oh I like a leg where's legs would you do legs so I thought I'd better ring Andrus I rang Andrew your nose pilot knows when to buy legs from so I ring Andrew Andrews in Baghdad he answers the phone us at Andrew we need to buy a leg we need to get a leg and at that moment you were fine Oya he was buying an eye for someone and who who are you buying an eye for oh one of Saddam's generals and he plucks his I help George with no I he's still got the eye we bought him now all right let's how did you you started visiting Iraq while Saddam Hussein was still president yes and when you were visiting what was the purpose of those visits bit of this but they're hoping to work in reconciliation with the religious leaders but now I know that everything was for today yes then I went over to see the Causton Pope one day with all these Iraqi religious leaders I didn't know what to do because I've taken some religious leaders to Iraq and tout Aziz the Deputy Prime Minister everybody was deputy because there's only one real man and Tareq Aziz said to me will you take our religious leaders to England in America I said England I can cope with no problem I'll get the Archbishop of Canterbury to invite them America I don't have the leads so Tareq Aziz said to me no problem oz Billy Graham so I did he said yes here's the broad stamp oh yeah and he's sponsored he's sponsored you're the American visit yeah and the Archbishop of Canterbury sponsored the so then you eventually how did you end up going and becoming the Vicar of Baghdad well after that barrel war in 2/3 I was in Iraq most of the time and at that stage I was really a cannon at the place where your cannon yes Coventry Cathedral and they were getting a little bit annoyed with me not being there March at all I was the only resident weekend and the country was not supposed to be there but I was never there so after I'd done I did my five years so then I did another two seven and then I thought it's about time I left here and when I arrived in Coventry I got diagnosed with MS so the Church of England said he needs to go and see the Church of England doctor he said kind of white I'm afraid we've decided you're not really well enough anymore to be a vicar or do any job in England you should retire early so I went to beg day so you became the Vicar of Sun George's in Baghdad well I was already the Anglican chaplain to Iraq there is no such person as of Icarus and George's Baghdad to this day there is not that title really became something the media created and they did a television documentary called the Baker Baghdad and suddenly I found myself called their fakir at Baghdad and I saw my publisher regime renamed one of my books of Vikram Baghdad so now you're known as The Vicar of Baghdad tell us about your church Andrew my church my church is the most wonderful Church in the world I can't describe or its life when I first started a church only had one kind of resident pigeon so we reopen the church and it was very interesting that first Sunday their speakers they are the people who read the lessons there was general cross he became he was originally a big genuine King Bosnia and the Balkans he was sent to Iraq and then the other lesson was read by John saws he became the head of mi6 and then the other one by General Petraeus has just become the head of the CIA and then and white became the trick Rebecca tell us about your church today what's it what's it like well the church in Iraq is in a very very difficult situation we've had two hundred and twenty seven people killed this year and you're you mean members of your congregation and the other churches in Baghdad but one of the complications of al Church is the fact that all the other churches have only got seven or eight people left and we have over 4,000 and we also have a big clinic we have three dentists four doctors the laboratory of pharmacy we have a school we have a shot where we really give everything away especially your balls and the the medical care that you offer is free all totally free and most of our patients and Muslims and you're treating how many people a day over a hundred every day and so many people have come to the church because of the clinic yes recently after the mass killings and Christians were really targeted so many Christians fled and I said to my cure why as I said at least least we will have more food throughout people now because it's very difficult when you feed people every week oh he said we've got more people now than ever I said pies there are no more Christians left he said we've had five hundred and forty new people in the church and they're all Muslim and we serve to everybody so your church it's at the weekend Friday Saturday Sunday Thursday starts there riding Saturday Sunday we can't have one service because the church isn't big enough only seats 500 you can't get the minute it's not like a Church of England shirt with nobody and during the week yeah what do you do during the week during the week in the morning I go to the clinic see all of our staff then in the mornings I tend to do the more diplomatic kind of work with the embassies the British and American they tend to work in the morning in the afternoons I work without people and see all our children when they come back from school some of them live in the compound and then no Hey the Iraqis wake up and we deal with the laws of religious leaders at night at night hmm it's a pretty full week we never had a dull day and with in all that you do Andrew you obviously see the hand of God and who was it that asked you for some meat who was that oh that was a total no sudde the Grand Ayatollah I went to him one day he said a boon abouna I need some meat I said how much meat you need he said the whole of the raw I said I have about twelve dollars in my pocket oh you said don't worry pray about it when Ayatollah tells you to pray you do so I prayed I said dear lord please send some meat amen the next morning I went down to breakfast in those days we still had hotels not like now and a big American comes up to me says hey father were to meet I said what do you mean - I want to meet he said will your father you're helping the people aren't you did you want to meet so I said yes so I said how much meat is there he said I think there's a hundred and forty seven tons he said don't worry I've got enough trailers and lawyers to take it around the whole country now I didn't realize at first that God had answered my prayer now somebody taught me a Sainsbury's bag with a dozen lamb chops I would have thought so but this meat was so big I couldn't even see it and whose meat was it oh the meat was really meant for the American army but the paperwork was wrong so we got it now Iraq is a fascinating country and it's mentioned significantly in the Bible yapple it's not called Arak the land between the rivers or Mesopotamia from the birth beginning of the Bible chapter 2 of Genesis we see that the Garden of Eden was by two rivers the Tigris and Euphrates so it must have been Iraq and white through to the end of Revelation with Babylon we see Iraq there so Abram was remember a joke was from Iraq Ezekiel was from e-rock Shadrach Meshach and Abednego Daniel and then Jonah the miserable evangelist who came by submarine and he was so miserable one day a friend of mine told me he was preaching on Jonah and Jonah was good at the beginning no bad at the beginning moderate in the middle and bad and good at the end I said to him his name is Jay John I said I said Jonah was never happy the last thing Jonah says in his book as I wanted or what because he's air-conditioning had broken I know he was under the tree wasn't he yeah but then the people of Nineveh they were a bit bad after a hundred years but nay him sorted him out that's what Nathan is all about I know you've not read it but believe me it's the most miserable book in the Bible and then 700 years later another miserable guy turned up on his way to India Thomas martyr Murr doubting Thomas and he had met with Jesus he had touched his side and he said to the people of Nineveh did you know your Messiah has come and they said no nobody's told us so he told him and they all believed to this day Nineveh is Christian all of the people of my church awesome Nineveh every one of them now did you know that knee liver was still Christian had you been taught there at church no is that eight hundred thousand Assyrian Christians in Iraq there were 1.2 million now their own 200 left the rest of fled and the assyrians in the Bible were like al-qaeda love today now if you say you're Syrian it means you're Christian if God can change the Syrians he can change anybody and so much of my work is with bad people that God can deal with them cause he can now Ezekiel's tomb is in Iraq yeah I hope look after that God you you tell us about your first visit to his equals - I was standing on that same hotel the night that I was praying for the meat you know though 10-second prayer for the meat and I saw this huge cloud over the Tigris River and I thought that looks like the glory of God and I said to the Lord Lord what is this and I really felt the Lord saber swung me read the Book of Ezekiel so I read it I didn't know ad 48 chapters took a little while to read anyway I read Ezekiel I realized that what I was experiencing was what Ezekiel experience the glory of God in this place and he was by the kaepa River which was a little River which run between the Tigris and the Euphrates and he was with the exiles from Israel to Babylon and there at a place called Tel Aviv that's where Tel Aviv Israel gets its name from a place in Iran so I said to my Christian staff I said where's Ezekiel buried and they said we don't know so in the end after getting nowhere I look too dark on Google what you found it on Google Earth and said he was buried in a place called El Kittel which was between Babylon and Najaf and so I said to my staff tomorrow we are having el only every day off we're going to see a Z course - and we started driving south and we got a bit lost and I asked a man how far is it - Ezekiel's tomb and he looked at my feet he opened the car door he didn't say wow you've got size 16 feet he said you can't go I said why he said your shoes are on he said you remember now BAM was the prophet Moses when he met with God he took his shoes off so I took my shoes off I got caught in the terrible traffic jam absorb donkeys we eventually got there and I've realized I was in one of the most incredible places I'd ever been we were so aware of the presence of the glory of God tangibly tangibly when we go there now and I do go there quite often we see angels lots lots and there are pictures some of the angelic pictures in this faith under fire book and even there are only two places I see these ingles at our church and Ezekiel's to him so we drove back after a while how many low yeah quite a lot are they big yeah bigger than me some of them do they talk to you no and whenever we try and take pictures of the angels I used to try and take pictures they we see them as angels but they never come out as angels they always come out as balls of light in this book there's one which looks as big as the moon and that has come out but it didn't look like a moon it look like an angel and doweled who always takes the pictures for my book so I said to Daryl I need you to take good pictures today they've got to go in the ball hell he said daddy are calm because the angels are everywhere I said well tell them to go away so I said to the Angels just leave this for one minute please did they know when you left them as equals two on that first visit yeah you're you're driving back and and your car broke down yeah buh-buh-buh-buh I said to our driver did you get his petrol from the black market or the real market he said from the black market of course it is no good next minute a huge bomb goes off in front of us I thought oh dear it's really a bad hair day so your car's not working the home goes on goes off and suddenly the car starts working I look behind and there was 30 oil tankers behind the bomb was meant for them not for us and then once the bomb went off the car started yeah through impact beg down do you see the the protection of the Lord frequently Oh most days have you been in situations where you've been concerned about your well-being and the well-being of your colleagues well you know I've been held at gunpoint we've been blown up I've had knives pulled out at me I've been stuck in a room I was kidnapped once put in the room with chopped off toes and fingers I did get a little worried about my fingers then but so how did you get out of them oh I I put my hands in my jacket pocket and found a lot of money in there so I gave it to them and they let me out it must cost a lot to run the work that you do the clinics and all your reconciliation work are you said that cheapest church to run and world it cost six hundred US dollars a year now it costs one hundred and seventy seven thousand dollars a month and that's not through our reconciliation without just Church and Monique and Kony and school and every single month I don't know where the money is coming from we've got no reserves do you know what every month we have enough money but God by Satan thought couldn't we have it be Talia no doesn't work like that as you look back Andrew over these years of in the work that God has called you to do have you been discouraged at times I've been very sad when our loved ones have been killed I've been sad when to be honest with you when people aren't killed sometimes even worse just three months ago my chief has secured to you as a Christian Army colonel had his legs blown off yeah and that is really sad I can't pretend that there are days when that I cry because they but despite all of this our church is the happiest Church I've ever known really happy and in Nehemiah when Nehemiah comes back to rule rebuild the walls of Jerusalem he says the joy of the Lord is my strength he doesn't say that's my joy it's the Lord's joy her God's joy is our strength they told me tonight that I must not sing who said my star today I wanted to to mention the fact that in our church in the rock we can only sing two songs in English first one father Abraham yes are they brand any songs many son said father Abraham you were one of them so so legs all praise the Lord God why Thomas a tree section but the other song we sing the one other song we sing in English we can all sing it I've got the joy joy joy joy well my heart well I've got the joy joy joy joy we're down in my heart Tuesday and I am so happy so very happy I've got the love of Jesus in my heart and I'm so happy so very happy Jesus in my do they sing it the way we sang it yes what are your aspirations for the future Andrew to go back in two days time if you'd asked me five years ago what my aspirations were I could have told you exactly every year every month what I wanted to achieve now I just say I want to be back with my people and to do the work of the Almighty I don't know what's going to happen none of us know we've been blown up shorter we've been destroyed our people who have been killed but we continue rejoicing in the presence of God why because when you've lost everything Jesus is all you have left we have lost everything but we haven't lost Jesus you're married to Caroline yeah poor thing you have two sons poor boys now Josiah and Jacob and Caroline live in England but you predominantly live in Baghdad how does that work you go on the plane the really hard thing is when I come home I have to find a hundred and seventy seven thousand dollars in one week so it's not as if I come back R&I as we call it in Iraq rest and recuperation I'm out two other time talking to people trying to get there not just to pray for me but to get them their money and they do how's your health great wonderful you're a very positive person yeah have you always been positive optimistic I think I'm not very good at being negative but there was a time when my health was so bad that when I came back to England there was very little I could really do apart from what I had to do going and preaching and teaching and raising money and I was so ill but now I'm so well so does the there's the Church of England doctor know that you're the vicar of Baghdad no idea you should send in one of your books so it's a good job you didn't take his advice to retire yeah if I had retired that would have been the end but the thing is that whenever God calls you to do something he always enables you to do it Daniel was called to Babylon as well he was sent in exile to Iraq not a very good situation he didn't wake up as a boy and think oh one day I'm going to be an exile in Babylon and I am going to interpret the Kings dreams God gave him the gift of interpreting dreams yeah God gave him all the needed and likewise God has given me everything I need well I always say that you know God owns the cattle on a Thousand Hills and we only need a little milk jug why didn't you tell me that I not told you that oh that's good as that the thing I you know one of the things I really like about you Andrew is it some your your your so you knows a lot and there's some things you don't know and you're very kind of like for example you went to Davos to the economic summit the World Economic yeah you come back your wife says all did you meet anyone interesting and you could say the heart oh no no no I said to people as well I said I had lunch with Bruno with Bruno today just a singer she said what was his name I said Bruno I think and it was one no and he turns around to boy knows his what do you do and he says I sing this is a hole can you make a living out of that and then you you had dinner with Bill Clinton and other people it's the Lord has put you in positions where you can influence all sorts of people yes and you do it was quite funny this evening when David Suchet came and I have to admit I'd never heard of David Souter and that's because you don't watch television no I never heard of him but I did know that the name Suchet mainly came from show head oh sure Hector from Nick Beck's Lithuanian Jews so I was saying all the way back from wells today to my stuff I was saying I wonder if he is related to shop it or show Hector and that was the person I asked him and he said yes and the next thing I said to him was about the Shu sushi retractor for doing his straight to meas and that was his grandfather was his grandfather is amazing what would you do you see yourself continuing what you're currently doing I mean basically during the week you are involved in all sorts of reconciliation politics hostage negotiation and then you run the church Thursday to Sunday do you see yourself continuing to I have no desire to leave there they are the most wonderful people you know when I'm there I miss Caroline than my boys when I'm here I miss my people in Iraq and it's difficult for people here to comprehend how a person can love them so much and I really love them like my family with all the things that you see Andrew and the things that you experience do you ever doubt God never I don't know how to doubt God I've never doubted God and I've never been converted could you clarify that second statement yeah I've never been converted I've always loved Jesus when I was a baby the earliest thing I remember is my parents teaching me to love Jesus I've never stopped I used to try and cut her heart out give to Jesus but I couldn't cut a heart I was no good at it so I didn't what would you say Andrew to those of us that sometimes despair a little and sometimes we do have anxious thoughts or doubts or get discouraged you mean like a bigger factory or whatever everybody doubt is there apart from me what would you say to any of us listening now what would you say as a pastor priest what would you say to us from your experience of God to encourage us in our own journey I would say I've got the joy of Jesus in my heart and that is all I can say is for me Jesus is always with me Jesus can be our closest friend Jesus is the one who loves us and however difficult things are even when I see my place being blown up even when I look out my window and I see that I'm surrounded by soldiers of razor wire on barricade I know that our Lord Jesus is with us I don't have any deep intellectual argument to deal with doubt because of God Jesus beside me and that is everything and that's all I've got nothing else you've tried to articulate a little bit of your story in some of your books can you tell us tell us about some of your books Angie why this one is called a thunder fires just been written came out in March and it's already been reprinted five times my mother says this is the best one so she must be right and this is about faith when so many things are going wrong this is about trusting in Jesus when we are under fire here are pictures of the bodies being taken for example there is a picture of all the bodies being taken back to Nineveh to be buried and surrounding the funeral causes great cloud of glory so their angel pictures in here as well it's good that's good book that one why people say to me how do you manage to cope in a row and I say it's the children it's not the big people it's the little people and here in this book which is good because not just me but the children write their stories the children in my group in Baghdad the children of my inner circle and also my children including my two boys in England and it also has wonderful pictures here that one of the children drew and one of them is of the children come to Jesus who've been blown up their arms and plaster their heads are bleeding all sorts of problems and the other picture which really inspires me is this little boy planting a flower people often say what are you doing in Iran and I say I'm just pulling up the thorns and planting flowers and that comment I got from one of the former Hamas leaders so that good about children and this is the book The Vicar of Baghdad he's got the award for the best Christian book in England last year and it has best pictures I've looked at the pictures Ivan has read the book I just wrote there are lots of other books as well but we have brought these along tonight Andrew you you are unique and you've received all sorts of awards earthly awards some pretty prestigious and significant awards but I'm sure the biggest award that you get is God's smile I couldn't do what you do can you imagine going around trying to tell group of boring people about Jesus every day when all I've gotta do is say I've got the best Church in the world if you don't believe me come well you stick to what you're doing and so the really important thing is to do what God has called us absolutely and I can see that God has given me the ability and the joy to do what I do I don't see it anything special it'd be far harder for me being a vicar in England I'd be useless on a day when things were really bad I said Caroline I wish I was a baker in a little Church in Hampshire where we live and she said to me you couldn't hope we're there and they couldn't cope with you

Channel: Facing the Canon

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Keywords: facing the canon, j.john, interview, jjohn, j john, philo trust, philo, trust, christianity, Jesus, Lord, God, Holy Spirit, Andrew White, Canon Andrew White, Vicar of Baghdad, Vicar

Id: OOuz5TjtyDw

Length: 58min 34sec (3514 seconds)

Published: Fri Feb 14 2014