Welcome to my YouTube subscribers. My
guest on Facing the Canon this week is Professor Alister McGrath, Professor of
Science and Religion at Oxford University. Alister McGrath welcome to Facing the Canon.
It's really good to be here.Thank you Alister. I'm delighted to have you on the programme.
We've talked before on a previous interview of Facing the Canon and I may not cover some of those
questions but any one wants to view that, you can. But let's start from the beginning. You're
from Ireland. I'm from Ireland yes, I was born there in 1953, which of course is the year of the
coronation of our Queen. Yes and you grew up, there were Troubles when you were growing up? That's right the Troubles began really in the late 60;'s when I was at high school studying science, but it actually had a very big
impact on me. I think one of the things it really did was to confirm my growing sense of atheism.
You know if there was no religion, there'd be no religious violence. I know it's very simple, that's
the way I thought back in those distant days. So, you actually, one particular day or a season
of your life, decided that you would call yourself an atheist? I did. I think there were two things
that really moved me in that direction. One was that I was studying science. I loved science,
it was really wonderful, but I had this idea that you couldn't be a scientist and a religious
believer, so I just said, "right, I am a scientist therefore, I'm not a religious believer." But also,
as I was saying, this was at the time when the Troubles were beginning in Northern Ireland and
that seemed to me to indicate that religion was actually the cause of violence. So two reasons: Love
of science and the growing sense, religion leads to violence. Now in Ireland of course, there's a
lot of Church. How did family react to you stating that you're an atheist? I think they just thought
I was going through a phase or that I was sort of making a protest against something, but actually, I
was taking the view quite seriously that atheism was the only option for a thinking person and I
became, I have to say, a rather dogmatic atheist. In fact, when I read Richard Dawkins these days,
I get all nostalgic because that's the way I used to be when I was 16. You know, if you're
a religious believer, you're mad or bad or sad or possibly even all three. And it just seemed
obvious to me, so I could see I couldn't understand what religion was and it seemed to me to be wrong.
So I had no interest in it whatsoever. You ended up going to Oxford; you studied chemistry. Now while
you were at Oxford you had an epiphany of some kind. Well that's right. I think university is a time
when very often you begin to rethink things and actually before I went to Oxford I was beginning
to rethink, I mean, what actually is the evidence for atheism? I mean, that was a hard question to
answer and actually isn't atheism really a belief? You know, I believe there is no God but I can't
prove it. And so, I was beginning to think maybe this is not as straightforward as I'd thought but then
I went to Oxford and one things I discovered was that Oxford was full of people who were Christians,
and who had thought through, for example, the relationship between their science and their faith,
and as I talked to them, I began to realise 'I have got this wrong' - that Christianity is much more
interesting and engaging than I thought. I began to realise I had rejected the caricature not the real
thing. And I realised I need to rethink in a big way. From starting at Oxford to professing
and believing, what was the time scale? It was quite short really, I think that I went
up to Oxford in October 1971, in effect feeling I was on the cusp of something. Actually you know,
I was going to have to make some decisions. When I went home that Christmas, I was a Christian.
Now if you were to say to me 'be precise', I couldn't be. All I can say is at some point there was a
moment of transition, a moment of epiphany, but basically, something happened that made me realise
everything was different. And it changed your belief and behaviour? I think it changed my
belief. It also changed the way in which I saw things. If you like, it was all about, like a
mental inversion or seeing things in new ways. If someone turned the light on, you suddenly realised
things were not what you thought they were; you could see them for the very first time and one
of the people who helped me explore that was C.S. Lewis, who used this imagery of the sun rising
on the landscape - you can see things clearly. And I thought that's what this is all about and I also
discovered C.S. Lewis was really interesting so, that was a lifelong friendship I began. Well,
and he was from Ireland as well? He was and now, you've written a number of books on C.S. Lewis,
is it four books on C.S. Lewis? I've written several books on C.S. Lewis simply because he is so interesting
and I find Lewis is really good in helping me grow in my faith, because my poor Christian
friends, I would ask them all these questions like, what exactly is the Trinity? And they give me
answers that they struggled with and I eventually realised, you know, I need to look for some help
and someone said 'will you please read C.S. Lewis'. So I did. And it was like I discovered a soulmate;
somebody who in effect was asking the questions I was asking and giving me answers and it
was really wonderful. We all, I think, in our journey of faith need travelling companions
and I'd discovered Lewis as a traveling companion; who is still with me to this day. You're quite
unusual in the sense that you ended up studying science, a doctorate in science, but then you
also did theology and got a doctorate in theology and your current position at Oxford is? What's
your current..? Well they call it the 'Andreas Idreos Professorship of Science and Religion.'
Which is quite remarkable. It's remarkable and I never expected that to happen. I mean, I still
look back in my career and think, how did that happen? But I did it, and I'm very happy. I know and
your latest book, 'Through A Glass Darkly: Journeys Through Science, Faith & Doubt.' How did you come
across, well how did you end up with this title? Well I love reading St. Paul. And Paul In 1 Corinthians 13, does talk about this whole idea of seeing through a glass darkly and giving us a
promise that one day we'll see God face to face. But for the time being, we see things as if through
a half-silvered mirror through a dirty window pane and not clearly. And for me, that is such a perceptive
comment because, we journey in faith, we do not see the full big picture, things are a bit fuzzy and
out of focus, but we know there's something there and we keep going and that's very important to
me. So you're a scientist, you're a theologian. So how do you see things, how do you understand
things, how do you interpret things, holding those two together? I think what I tend to think of it
is like this: There's science, which is great and there's theology, which is great. And if you like,
it's like a set of spectacles that gives you stereoscopic vision. In other words, science is very,
very good at answering some questions like, how do things work? But then there are deeper questions
we want to ask like, what is good? Or what is meaning? What's life all
about? Science tells us how things work; theology helps us figure out what they mean and
to me, that is very important. These are, if you like, different parts of a big picture but we need
both those parts together. Now you obviously are convinced that science and faith are compatible.
Whereas some people often say they're not compatible. That's what I thought when I was 16. That in
effect, science and religion were incompatible. Now they are different - let's agree on that. But here, I
quote Albert Einstein who's my favourite scientist I think. Einstein said "in life we have
science, we have ethics, we have religion, we have politics." They're different, but they all matter and
really the challenge is to see how each of these builds up to give us an overall picture of
things. Each is part of a greater whole. I think that's a key thing, they're different yes, but
they're part of this bigger picture. We need them all if we're going to lead a meaningful life. So,
I do not see science and religion being incompatible and basically they're different and they
illuminate different parts of the landscape of life. Now sometimes you hear of someone
saying, "Oh I don't believe because I am a scientist" and using that as like proof not to believe
in God. But why is it that so many, it appears, scientists have got a limited... or they're
blinkered, they've got a limited understanding of faith? I think many scientists would say, you
only believe what you can prove and I'm prepared to respect that. What I'm going to say
though is that all the big questions in life are things that lie beyond proof. What is good? what
is the meaning of life? And these are very big questions and science can't answer them and nobody
can give an answer that can be proven to be right. So whether I'm an atheist or a Christian, if I
take a view on, for example, what's the meaning of life? I'm doing so as a matter of belief because I
cannot prove it's right. I think one thing I'd want to say to a scientist in that position is, look
you'll find you hold views on ethical questions or political questions and if I were to press you
very hard you would not be able to prove that they were right. If you stand by your own criteria, you
therefore can't believe them, but you know that you're entitled to. So therefore can you see that
really, it's not as straightforward as you're thinking. All the big questions in life lie beyond proof,
therefore either you say 'I can't believe any of them' or you say 'right, I can take positions on
what is good, what the meaning of life is' and realise that we have to go beyond facts to make
sense of life. What is it that convinces you about faith in Jesus? I think that's a very important
question and one of the things that really helped me in my journey towards Christianity was
this growing realisation of a significance of Christ. Let me try and explain. When I was young, I
thought; there's God. God's up in heaven somewhere. I'm down here, but if he's up there what difference
does that make. I mean it's like someone living in outer Mongolia. They might as well not
be there for all the difference it makes to me. And then at Oxford, discovering this idea of
the incarnation, that God enters into our world in Christ to redeem us in history in Christ.
I suddenly realised, this is a game changer. If that is right, to have seen Christ as we've
seen God, it's about a God who comes to where we are to bring us to where he is and that
suddenly made everything so much clearer. So if you like, that was a transition point,
a turning point in my own spiritual journey. You would say Alister, that
Christianity, there's facts that support it. Why do so many people ignore the
facts and ignore the evidence? I think many people believe what they want to believe and
Sigmund Freud talks about 'wish fulfillment.' When I was younger, I thought 'wish fulfillment'
is only for religious people. They invent God to make things up because that's the way they want
it to be. Having lived many years since then and read many books, I've realised that atheists do
exactly the same thing. We don't want there to be a God. I mean there are many philosophers who
like, Thomas Nagel for example, a very well-known American philosopher, says "Look, I do not want there
to be a God, I want there to be atheism so I'm going to spend the rest of my life proving atheism is
right." In other words, the wish came first then the intellectual case for that. And what I want to say
is that atheism in many ways is the response to someone who says "I do not want there to be a God;
I want to be in charge, I want to invent my own values. I do not want anyone to interfere with me."
It's a belief system, it's a wish fulfilment. Sure. Well, we we're living in very interesting
times. That word interesting is quite loaded isn't it? Interesting times and this year
will be hugely memorable for all of us globally. There's a big emphasis particularly,
every day, you know, the science, the latest science and then we're going to do this
because of the science, because of the science. Okay, what do you think God's saying, what do
you think... why has God allowed this to happen? That's a great question and it's a very
big question. Let me give you a very brief answer which I think is important. I think we're
being taught we have to recognise our mortality and our limits. Those are both very important
points. I think the covid crisis has brought home to us, we aren't in charge of things. Actually,
we have to recognise our limitations that there are certain things we just don't seem to be
able to do and that's a huge challenge to many people who think in very technocratic ways.
We can sort everything out. We're confronted with something that's bigger than us and it makes us
realise that we are not as competent and powerful as we thought we were. And also it's brought home
to us the importance of mortality. In other words, we're suddenly realising that none of us actually
is safe and we have to then begin to live life in that shadow of mortality and of course that is a
very Christian theme; it's about living in hope not meaning everything will get better but rather, even
though things are difficult and really I struggle sometimes to make sense of things, that God is with
us. He is the shepherd who journeys with us even when we travel 'through the valley of the shadow of
death' and we need to hold on to that in this very difficult time. Now, one of the areas that you've
researched, studied and taught - Natural Theology, what is that? Natural Theology is this idea that
somehow there's a link between the world of nature that we see around us and God. And it's
obviously, a very contested area. How do we make that relationship? But if you want a biblical
text, think of Psalm 19 'The heavens declare the glory of the Lord.' And for me, it's very
important. It means, when I go for a walk in the beautiful countryside, I say "What a wonderful
view," but then I say, and of course it points me towards God. In effect, the beauty of nature is a
reminder of the even greater beauty of God. And some might say "God's going to make a new heaven
and a new earth, so don't worry about looking after this earth." What would you say about that? Well I'm
sure he's going to do that, that's right, but in the meantime, we're here and this is God's creation.
It's been entrusted to us. We need to look after it. And as I look at the beauty of nature, I
sometimes feel very, very distressed when I see that beauty being destroyed and I think
we need to, in effect, take responsibility for certainly living here, that's very important but,
also taking care of this. The idea that we have been entrusted by God with his creation, that's
a real challenge to me. How do I live responsibly to try and minimise the damage I do to this
wonderful creation that we're part of? Yes. Interesting, with your book Alister 'Journeys
Through Science, Faith', but you added the word and 'Doubt' and the reason you added the word
doubt? Is because it's important. Let me explain. When I was an atheist I took the view that, in
effect, you only believe things you could prove. It's very simple. But the problem is that's a very
narrow world. If you limit yourself to the world of things you can absolutely prove then you're
talking about things like, two and two make four. And you know, we need more than that to
live a meaningful life and what I'm saying is that we have to realise that we live in a world, whether you're an atheist or a Christian, you end up believing things you cannot prove to be right.
I'm a Christian and I know I cannot prove there's a God, but my heart and my mind scream out 'this is
right.' And I believe, even though I know I can't prove. And my job is to talk to other people and
see if they might discover this as I've discovered it, but also to realise, that actually I have to
live with this state of not being able to prove. But then, I turn to my atheist friends and
say, "you can't prove this either." And one of the paradoxes we have is, we very often think of
doubt as something that affects religious people. No! It affects atheists as well because they
know they cannot prove their core beliefs. That's worth thinking about. So during the time that
you've known the Lord and you followed Jesus, have there been moments where you've doubted?
I think there have been. I think they've been genuine moments where I've doubted, in the sense
that 'I don't really understand this'. Does this mean I have bought into something that is wrong,
or does it mean I've bought into something very, very big and I have not yet fully understood.
An image I find helpful is that, I think of my conversion as landing on the beach of an
island of faith. It's big and I begin to explore and realise how great and complex it is, but needs
to be explored. And very often doubt arises because we don't really understand properly and that's why
it's so important to grow in our faith to begin to understand what it's all about. And that to me
is a very important part of the journey of faith. Growing in understanding about what the Christian
faith is all about. So your encouragement to any viewer that's battling with doubt at this moment,
you know maybe they've got a very sick child or maybe they've lost their spouse and it feels like
winter time and they're doubting the presence or the peace or the love of God. What would you say to
them? I've been there too, so has C.S. Lewis - think of the death of his wife. And what C.S. Lewis found very,
very helpful when he was deeply moved by the death of his wife from cancer, was to think about Christ
dying on the cross. One of the thoughts Lewis had was, look my wife is dying of cancer, I wish I could
take on that suffering instead of her and then realising this is what God did on the cross and so
Lewis came to see the image of a suffering Christ as, in effect, a reassurance that God is there even
in times of suffering, in times of bewilderment and we need to hold on to that. We don't fully
understand, but we can trust we're not on our own. God the shepherd is with us even in that journey
through those dark places. Now you're a professor of science, religion at the best university
in the whole world. It was voted again number one for several years running, so you're an academic.
I'm intrigued Alister, tell us about, a little bit about your own devotional life, how do you
read the Bible devotionally and personally? Do you dissect it or how does, you know, you're a scientist,
how do you read it and how do you apply it? At the moment I'm reading Mark's Gospel and I'm
reading it in company with someone who I knew, who is now dead, but he wrote a commentary on. What I'm
doing is, I'm imagining myself reading this text, but reading it in conversation with my friend's
book, my friend. And he helps me to see things. Well, if you like, having almost like conversation about
what's there, how this helps us to grow in our faith. That's why Bible study's so helpful because you
help others but they help you as well so, in effect, when I'm reading the Gospels, I'll step into
the picture and imagine I am there, I'm seeing these things, I'm thinking about them, I'm taking
them in, absorbing them and asking how does it help understand who Christ is - the difference he
makes. And it's a wonderful immersive experience. So, it's one of those things that I think you
can read the Bible in two ways. You can sip it as if it was a fine vintage wine - very, very slowly,
or you can drink it like a glass of water on a hot day, you know, and sometimes I savour, sometimes
I drink deeply, but either way, it refreshes you. And your prayer life, how do you personally engage
with God? My prayer life is not as good as it should be. I think it's partly because I have
so many friends who are in difficulty that I spend most of my prayer life in effect saying,
"there's this person, but what do I do? There's this person, how do I help?" you know where in effect, you're really
asking for guidance about how you can do things. I think that is something that's very important
because there is a sense which we feel burdened by other people's problems, that's very important and
yet there's a sense which we can share that burden and prayer is a very important way of beginning
to enter into God's presence with these concerns on your mind. And maybe you get discernment about what
you could be doing or maybe in effect you feel that there's something else that could be done but
it's a very important way, I think, of how should I put this, of ensuring that you don't disengage
from reality but at the same time ask God what you should be doing. Now, there's many people
like yourself Alister, you're an academic. It feels like there's a real
battle with the world, there's a battle with us communicating the truth of Christianity. Do you
feel the Church isn't helping people in their journey of faith but sometimes hindering them? I'm
sure the Church is trying to help, but I sometimes wonder if it's doing it as effectively as it could. When I was an atheist, I had many questions about Christianity and I know that those questions are
still there in our culture. By becoming a Christian, I found answers to those questions and I'm very
happy to share those answers, but I sometimes feel that the Church isn't really helping ordinary
Christians to answer the questions that their culture is asking. I think we really need
help there. And there are very good answers that can be given. And what I'm worried about really
is, that there are a number of people, myself, Tom Wright, John Lennox. We could add many more names to that list who are trying to help, but there's a sense which all of us are just ordinary Christians trying to be helpful.
We really need the churches to in fact take this on and equip people to answer the good questions
that their friends are asking. And so for those of us Alister who love Jesus, follow Jesus
and we're struggling with questions, what's the best way forward for us? I think it's
natural to have these questions and I think that very often, people are frightened about questions.
What I want to say to you is don't be. For example, supposing somebody asks you a question you can't
answer. Well they might say, "well look, why do Christians believe that Christ is the Son of God?" I
mean you might say, "Oh my goodness, this is a threat!" No, don't see it like that, see it as
an opportunity. They're interested. Now you may not be able to answer it yourself
fully, but you might try and that will help you next time they ask that question, or you might say,
"Oh, I read a very good book by C.S. Lewis, he answers that question and let me tell you what he says."
So what I'm trying to say is, that growing in your faith is a very good way of helping people who ask
you these questions. There are answers, I assure you. Discover them. It will help you grow, but will also
help those who you are talking to. At Oxford University, how do your colleagues view you? I'm intrigued!
Well I think that they're all very polite of course. They might not say this directly. I think some
think, "you're a little bit strange aren't you?" or some might say, "well, you know, you shouldn't have
this mad enthusiasm for the Christian faith." Others would say, "no, you've seen something."
And the job of a good writer is to say, "I have seen something and I want you to see it as
well." And in many ways what I'm doing as a writer, is to say, "let me try and help you see what I've
discovered and maybe you can discover it as well." And you know, I said earlier on, you're a little
bit unusual, you know, in the sense that you're a scientist, you're a theologian, but you're also a
Reverend and it's like you are endeavouring to live out this faith and communicate it to
ordinary people. I remember reading about when you were a young minister, in Nottingham
actually, trying to communicate what you believed and that's what we're trying
to do today and there is a struggle isn't there? There's a struggle there and I think we all have
to try and think how best we can do this. I remember when I started preaching, afterwards some
of my congregation said to me, "Alister we thought you were trying to say something very important,
but we aren't quite sure what it was." And I began to realise I've got a lot to learn. What I want to
say to anybody watching this is, you can learn how to explain why your faith matters to you.
You can say, "here's what I found, maybe this will help you." I want to emphasise all of us can tell
the story of our faith and that may help others discover what we have found and maybe make them
think, I'd like to know more. Alister McGrath, thank you so much for joining us on Facing the Canon.
It's been my pleasure, thank you. Wow! How inspiring was that? I am truly always inspired reading
Alister McGrath and just hearing him and it kind of gives me a real faith lift knowing that someone like Alister was an atheist, became a believer in Jesus, is a Professor
of Science and Religion at Oxford University. If you're grappling with questions,
if you love science and faith, can I recommend Alister McGrath's new
book. Thank you so much for joining us on Facing the Canon. I hope it's given
you a faith lift. Please join us again.
