EWTN Live - Benedict XVI and Verbum Domini - Fr Mitch Pacwa, SJ with Dr. Scott Hahn - 03-02-2011

st. jerome said that ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ tonight we'll look at Pope Benedict's latest effort to help us find the person of Jesus Christ in the Word of God so please stay with us thank you and welcome I'm father Mitch Pacwa and welcome to EWTN live our chance to bring you guests from all over the world with us tonight is the perfect guest to help us tackle this topic of the Word of God he's a prolific author himself and a speaker and certainly no stranger to the network he's currently professor of theology and scripture at Franciscan University of Steubenville and he's the founder and director of the st. Paul center of biblical theology please welcome dr. Scott Hahn good to have you back here how you doing good I mean it's a busy day I came down here for breakfast with a bishop and 50 or 60 Catholic men and then a few bookmarks programs and then we also had I was spoke over at Samford University at Beeson Divinity School for dr. Paul houses class in biblical theology so it's been a little bit of a marathon it's been yeah I love him and and here I thought things would be easing down for you because you know I'm sure you don't mind if I bring up the fact that you're a grandpa now all five times yeah yeah that's easier than having your own they start to leak you can give them back that's great congratulations thank you and Kimberly both yeah four of them have been born the fifth one is to be named later and we found on Christmas Day April and Sarah are expecting their third our fifth grandchild so cool we're thrilled oh that's great one of the things that we wanted to talk about is Pope Benedict's new apostolic exhortation on Sacred Scripture this is you know an apostolic excitation is usually the kind of document that comes after a synod and the Synod was trying to deal with the problems that we have in the church today in regard to the Word of God because a lot of people are not taking scripture seriously they're not reading it there's a lot of ignorance of Scripture and the there's a certain amount of disbelief and the number of people I'd say our professionals at trying to encourage disbelief in the scripture History Channel would be among so let's talk about that what's been your impression of that that excitation well I think there have to we have to focus on two events in October of 2008 and then in November of 2010 in October 2008 all of these bishops descended upon Rome for three weeks and this is one of those sentence that is called over a few years the specific focus was to be on the Word of God in the life and mission of the church now typically the document is published by the Pope within six eight maybe ten months this one took more than two years never before has it taken that long now why what we can speculate but the the word on the street is that because the Pope had a special interest in this particular document and he had a heavy hand and really crafting it so that it advanced the church's understanding of Sacred Scripture contrary to a lot of external views out there so in November of 2010 this document came out not so long ago but at the same time it came out the light of the world came out and all the press could be concerned with was some remark about condoms and so this almost vanished without a trace as soon as it came out despite the fact that many people have stated and I think with good reason that this is the most authoritative document on sacred scripture to have come out in over 40 years since the end of vatican ii with the issue of of dei verbum the dogmatic Constitution on divine revelation that came out at the end of 1965 so this is really a special document and it's near and dear to Benedict Sartre and it has to also be recognized as being sort of a piece of a puzzle because when you look at what Pope Benedict's been up to he called the year of Saint Paul he called the year of the priests he called for the Synod on Scripture but then he also produced Volume one of Jesus of Nazareth in his quote-unquote spare time ten chapters I mean 300 plus pages I don't know found reflection on Jesus absolutely and you and I both have seen the embargoed edition of the second volume that is due out in a couple of weeks which really takes you from the triumphal entry all the way through the passion death and resurrection and I think both of us recognize that this just takes it to the next level volume 2 written in his quote-unquote spare time this guy has Sacred Scripture not only in his mind but on his heart on the day that the Apostolic exhortation verbum Domini the word of the Lord was issued back in November 2010 an archbishop who basically led the discussion at the press conference announced that this Pope will be known in history as the Pope of the word of God and I really believe that is accurate yeah yeah I mean we've had just over a hundred years of important papal reflections on Scripture that's right Leo you know with his book on the Holy Spirit his the signal on the Holy Spirit talked mostly about Sacred Scripture right and then he had Pope Benedict the 15th riding upon the anniversary of the death of st. Jerome's spiritus / ocula - tonight a 20 and then Pope Pius the 12th with Divino flaunt a spirit - and then of course the Vatican - document so it's been us more than a century with a lot of profound the projection on the meaning of Sacred Scripture for the church more official teaching on the Bible from the Magisterium and the Pope's in a little more than a century than in the preceding 19 centuries right beginning in 1893 as you mentioned with Leo the 13th prophet and to some was Davis on the study of Sacred Scripture 50 years later was the anniversary and so Divino a flaunt a spirit who came out and then in the mid-60s dei verbum and then a long a kind of long delay now I mean in in in 1993 for the hundredth anniversary of Provident is a moose that encyclical by Pope Leo you have the Pontifical biblical Commission issuing a document on the interpretation of the Bible in the church but as then Cardinal Ratzinger states in the foreword the Commission is no longer an organ of the Magisterium and so while this document is really important it doesn't really reflect it doesn't it isn't a magisterial document as important as it is and that's what makes this so significant because when you look at this not only has there been a long time between documents from 1965 until 2010 but even more significant is the fact that we have never seen occupying the chair of st. Peter a world-class theologian who was also a biblical scholar I mean not since Peter himself who wrote part of the dude oh no that's an authority yeah I mean this is really a unique event and I think in some ways we might be too close to the event to recognize its uniqueness and its importance that the holy spirit raised up a biblical theologian what are some of the elements of this excitation that have sort of been jumping out at you well it's divided up into three parts and I think that it is in so many ways understandable its online for one first part is yes effective for anybody who wants to know you can get a copy of this from ewtn.com or you can go to the Vatican website as well and get an electronic copy of it for free but our website has it as well under the documents library so feel free to download it and put it in your computers and read it that's right and if you print it out and you recognize wait a second this is almost 200 pages don't panic just parcel out your time over the course of the next two weeks because this is understandable to the average highly-motivated layperson the first part is verbum dei the word of God and what it does is it focuses upon how the Word of God is not only the inspired word in Sacred Scripture but above all the incarnate word in Jesus Christ the eternal word of the father made flesh and so this gives Pope Benedict the opportunity to clarify what the Church teaches about the Bible because and he quotes the Catechism here Catholic Christianity is not a religion of the book he says but it is a religion of the word now Islam described itself is religion in the book Judaism also but Catholic Christianity is a religion of the word and the word is a person a divine person an eternal divine person and only later does it become a written document so we have the Incarnate Word the Word made flesh the second person of the Eternal Trinity but then we also have the word inspired in Sacred Scripture and in our tradition we subordinate the inspired Word scripture to the Incarnate Word Jesus we don't devalue the Bible if anything we invest it with far greater power precisely by showing how it is not an end in itself but as a means to an end and that is Jesus as you were saying from saint jerome ignorance of scripture is ignorance of christ that is not an ignorance anybody can afford so getting to know the bible is crucial precisely because it leads us closer to jesus now the second part is verbum in ecclesia that is the word in the church and i think a good argument could be made that this is the most important section it's the central section and it's the thing that is taking all of the themes from vatican ii and that one document that came out in 1965 date variable the Word of God and bringing it to the next level so that people can recognize it's not just true it is important it is crucial it is critical for the church at this hour at this time in history but especially for people who teach Scripture and for priests and deacons who preach Scripture because it focuses on what he calls the sacramentality of the word I want to get to that in a minute but the third and final section is variable mundo which is the word in the world and how we have to preach and teach and evangelize and catalyze and find every way we can to get the Word of God out to a needy world that has to discover the Savior but as I was saying the central section is in so many ways the outstanding part because what he's saying is that the Bible belongs to the church and what we really recognize is that the Bible is a part of the church's liturgy that the the Bible is a sacramental document and as I reflected upon this it really had began to occur to me more and more something that he has said in this book but also in other contexts you know we often speak of the New Testament and we know what we're talking about it's the document consisting of 27 books but it's interesting that the New Testament never calls itself the New Testament what does the New Testament call the New Testament because that phrase New Testament or New Covenant occurs several times what the New Testament calls the New Testament is not a document but a sacrament in Luke 22 verse 20 Jesus speaks of this top of the New Testament in my blood poured out for many for the remission of sins so Jesus doesn't say this cup is the blood of the New Testament poured out for many for the remission of sins write this in remembrance of me he doesn't say read this in remembrance of me he says do this in remembrance of me what is this it is the Eucharist what is the Eucharist it is the New Testament according to the New Testament and so the New Testament speaks of the New Testament as a sacrament first and foremost and only much later as it starts becoming a document and then again in 1st Corinthians 11 26 Paul speaks of the New Testament once again and what is he doing he's reflecting upon the institution of the Holy Eucharist and he quotes the same terms of Jesus that Luke does this cop is the New Testament or the New Covenant in my blood now of course you know Hebrew and Greek beruete dia fake a can't be translated New Covenant New Testament they're interchanged exactly so the New Testament is telling us that the New Testament is the Eucharist first and foremost he doesn't say write this read this preach this he says do this and you know if you look at the 12 apostles in the Upper Room at the time of the institution of the Eucharist over half of them contributed not a single book to the New Testament document but all of them went forth doing this Eucharist in remembrance of Jesus yeah and so the first was spreading reports of them did not contribute it but that's right only three of them did but none of them were unfaithful on that account because were commanded to write the New Testament they were commanded to celebrate the New Testament by celebrating the Eucharist and so the New Testament you know one of my favorite films and our family is Princess Bride and there's this line that we always quote to each other with with our kids I don't think that word means what you think it means and I think the word is inconceivable in that movie in this case the word is New Testament because we often act as though we know what the New Testament is and that's the document but when we actually study the document we discover that the document is referring beyond itself it's pointing back to something that existed long before the document that is the Eucharist and as you read the book of Acts in acts 2:42 and acts 20 verses 6 & 7 you discover references for the Eucharist the breaking of the bread the Eucharistic bread is what the church is doing everywhere it is growing and spreading the North Africa to India to Asia Minor up to Europe they're doing this in remembrance of Jesus the Eucharist and at the same time I mean scholars debate this but generally speaking I think we would say that the first book of the New Testament the earliest documents that made up the New Testament weren't really written until at least a decade and a half or two after the Eucharist after Jesus had ratified the New Testament and so the first books of the New Testament are written literally decades after the New Testament has been instituted and not until the end of the first century is the New Testament completed with the you know the the writing of the 27 books you know presumably the apocalypse of Saint John and you know what's interesting as a matter of historical record as the Pope knows is that the New Testament documents those 27 books that we all call the New Testament aren't being referred to as the New Testament until the second half of the second century those are the earliest references to these books being called a New Testament but back in the first century the Eucharist the sacrament is what was being called the New Testament by the New Testament writers and so at the end of the second century why are these books called the New Testament precisely because of their liturgical proximity to the Eucharist these are the books that the church brings out for the Lord's Day to read in a liturgical assembly when we all gather for what we would call the mass what they called the New Testament exactly that that's one of the things that was a criterion for a book to be included in the Canon of Scripture exactly was it included in the readings of the liturgy that's right did did the priests and bishops read these books at Mass right and if they didn't then they didn't have much chance of getting in the New Testament and in some ways that criterion is the is the bottom line because when you speak of the other criteria for why do they include these books when we speak of inspiration we also identify a past olicity that they were written by apostles or apostolic men and we also speak of Orthodoxy that is it's really in line with the Church's teaching but how would the church know that this is inspired that this is apostolic and that this is Orthodox teaching precisely because these were the books that were written for the Eucharistic liturgy they were read in the Eucharistic liturgy and they prepared people to recognize Jesus real presence in the Holy Eucharist and so the Liturgy of the word is precisely what illuminates the mystery of Christ's real presence in the Eucharist and the Eucharist is precisely what fulfills the saving truth of the scriptures in general but most especially the New Testament so in the early church you have the Old Testament being read the law and the prophets wig also has its canonical roots in the Liturgy of Israel I was wondering because you got your PhD at Vanderbilt in Old Testament studies and you worked with Errol 'some right who though a Protestant was especially sensitive to the fact that the Old Testament the law the prophets the writings also emerged precisely in Israel's liturgical life right at Mount Sinai it wasn't a constitutional convention right it was a liturgical assembly as a matter of historical fact right and so covenant is something that makes us a family but it's something that we renew and celebrate precisely in worship through sacrifice in what we call the liturgy and so he is saying that the Bible is an ecclesial document and that is not something extrinsic you know it isn't like the church says hey give that back that's ours there's no historic explanation for how the New Testament emerges apart from the church and apart from the church's liturgy so to read the New Testament in the context of the Eucharistic liturgy is to take it back to its natural habitat to read the scriptures apart from the Eucharist apart from the mass it's like pulling a plan up by the roots putting it in a laboratory and saying now why is this thing dying in fact he goes so far as to say something that really stands out in my mind you know you quoted st. jerome ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ he says unless we acknowledge the Lord's real presence in the Eucharist our understanding of Scripture remains imperfect ignorance of Christ real presence in the Eucharist leads to a an ignorance of sacred scriptures true meaning but but also recognition of the presence of Christ in the Eucharist helps us to recognize his presence in Scripture exactly even the liturgical stance of standing when we hear the gospel this is something that transcends that there are various churches so whether it be one of the Eastern Churches or whether it be the Roman Church people stand to hear the gospel because that's the word of Jesus they recognize the presence of Jesus and stand in that presence you know when I read this when I read this line the Eucharist opens us to an understanding of Scripture just as scripture for its part illuminates and explains the mystery of the Eucharist I could remember my own first experience at a Catholic Mass I was a doctoral student a Protestant minister I've been studying the Bible for 10 years my heart was burning within me a lot like Clovis and his companion on the road to Emmaus talking with what they thought no way strangers - that's right and and and and what do they say well our hearts were burning within us but her eyes were open in the breaking of the bread the Eucharistic bread so there I was in a basement chapel on a weekday for a noon Mass in the back pew like an observer you know and as I listened to the opening right I recognized that's what Justin Martyr described back in the second century the penitential right but as you said the Liturgy of the word I mean I had heard about I had read about it but I never experienced and when they all stood up for the gospel I felt guilty because that is the Protestant observer in that back pew I just sat there thinking why are they standing oh it's the gospel it's reverential we got to do that because in my church as a pastor I never had them stand I didn't even know that was a custom but when I heard the gospel it was obvious to me that somebody had selected the gospel because it corresponding to the Old Testament reading the promise is there were being fulfilled by Jesus ear so I was excited about the Liturgy of the word but it was really in the second half of the mass as I listened to the Eucharist as I listened to the Liturgy of the Eucharist that enough for the Eucharistic prayer and when I heard the words of consecration pronounced by a Catholic breeze for the first time I remember vividly like it was yesterday all the doubts just kind of draining out of my head in my heart I was at the edge of the back pew whispering my Lord and my god that's you that's really you and then when it consecrated the chalice the same kind of thing overwhelming I was thirsting for his blood as as well as hungry for his body it was like he was made known in the breaking of the Eucharistic bread and I mean I remember sticking around for over an hour looking at the Scriptures especially the back of the New Testament because in the apocalypse of Saint John though I had said it for years I had never coordinated that with the mass but there you have the holy holy holy the Agnus Dei the Lamb of God the Alleluia the aim and the glory all of the Alleluias you know it's a liturgical vision that John is given to show that when we gather to celebrate the mass we are doing God's will on earth as it is in heaven with the angels and the Saints who are present in our midst and so when I read this document it was electrifying to me and it's not electrifying to me as a scholar or a professor an author but just as a child of God who gets the bread of life first in the breaking of the bread in Sacred Scripture and then the Eucharistic bread the inspired Word fully human fully divine without error but then the Incarnate Word fully human fully divine and not just without sin but full of divine love and desiring to feed me and all of God's people in a way that surpasses our desires he wants to he wants to heal us and forgive us he wants to empower us even more than we want him to and I mean I'm like that's cool that's true that's beautiful ya know this is going to be a document that I think needs to it's gonna call for a lot of reflection because you know a lot of the way in which we highlight the Word of God as a matter of fact even in the liturgy to talk about the two tables right the table of the Eucharist but also the table of the Word of God and that that the the pulpit is itself like a table in which the Word of God has served that's right as the bread that we need to eat as Moses had said back in Deuteronomy chapter 8 verse 3 at that sense of know breaking open this word to nourish us every word that proceeds from the mouth of God that's what we live by and in that sense and the Old Testament prophets that people in Amos that people perish for lack of the Word of God you know there's a starvation of meaning in the world because they don't have the Word of God this is going to be a document that helps us to unpack that you know I heard your homily yesterday on TV all kind of nice to watch and listen and take in the bread of life because it reminded me of what Pope Benedict says in this document and elsewhere that the homily is not a talk that happens to be given in the context of the liturgy the homily is an essential part of the liturgy yes and that with the bread of life in Sacred Scripture the homily does something with the Scriptures that's analogous to what the words of consecration do with what is bread there on the altar there ought to be a transformation of written text to living word precisely in the context of the liturgy right and you know as I think about it you are absolutely right this is not something that people are gonna read and simply digest in a day or a week a month maybe not even a year but I'm convinced that this is going to prove to be an essential part of Pope Benedict's legacy I remember back in the mid 80s as a doctoral student I was a Protestant and John Paul just finished the theology of the body all over those wins the audience of 79 to 85 and I approached a professor friend of mine said can I write a paper on the theology of the body of Christ based on this material he's like all those are wins of the audience is nothing significant there and I'm like wait a minute there really is ten years later he reminded me of that conversation and said boy did I have it wrong we were too close to it to appreciate what was really happening and I was with George Weigel last week and he he talks about the theological time bomb of the theology of the body and how this is a part of his legacy well I'm convinced that what the theology of the body is for John Paul the theology of the Bible will prove to be for Pope Benedict this is going to be his legacy to really re capture the scriptures and put it back at the center where it belongs especially in the liturgy the new testament liturgy I'm intending to go through this document on my Tuesday night shows later this year not not right away this year I have to finish another document by Pope and Pope John Paul but I want to go through this because on a week-by-week basis because it needs to be unpacked and and people to realize the riches of Scripture and the importance of having a theology of the Bible this is gonna be a if you don't mind I just want to say something we interrupt this message to bring you the following you are a scripture scholar you're not just the host of a live program people don't recognize people often don't realize that you have a PhD from Vanderbilt in the Old Testament which is one of the most reputable programs in the world for the last 30 or 40 years so I am thrilled to hear that you are going to be explicated this document because you're in a position to really appreciate what a significant contribution this is for Scripture you know it's it's something that you know I've over the years seminarian I had started reading the Bible once a year when I was a novice you know and may your tribe increase and I think you know to to encourage people to read scripture more and more and to have a better sense of what it is and what it means this is going to be part of our our goal and going over that document but we have to have another issue here which is to take a break because it's time to halfway point of the show and if you have any questions or any comments that you'd like to call in please feel free to do so thank you and welcome back we have a nice group of folks here from different parts of the country as well as the number of local folks and we'd like to have you come here on pilgrimage as I pointed out to a couple who came here from Minneapolis or Minnesota that all the white stuff in the trees is not snow here it's flowers they're blossoming and that it's just whites and pinks and purples and yellows and oh it's just really beautiful down here so come on down to join us on a pilgrimage be part of our programs join us for the masses and the number for our pilgrimage Department to help you with all this is two zero five two seven one two nine six six that's two zero five two seven one two nine six six or go to the website WWE wtn com speaking of pilgrimages also want to mention that I'll be leading a pilgrimage to Catholic France in October the 3rd to the 14th if you are able to come join us to go to st. Teresa travelers here in this year to see the body of Saint Bernadette in NAVAIR in the Curia of ours and ours and of course the high points going to be going to pray them on you out for the Sacred Heart please call one eight hundred five 5 four 4 five 5 six that's one eight hundred five 5 four 4 five 5 six or go to my website www.chesterlaw.com Lee they're stronger than ever and continue to bring you the news you need most to subscribe just go to ewtn.com and then click on the National Catholic Register banner on that page and you can register for the register and it would be a great addition to your family there's a lot of great news in there and keep you really updated and it's very uplifting it's I really enjoy when I read it because it's something that is not bringing you down into the dumps or the gutter for that matter to you know that is not the problem with some of the news oh yeah you know some of the news that they don't care about what's important they care about what's trashy you know it's just not necessarily we subscribe to the register and I'm glad we do oh good every week you know oh that's great all right you ready for some questions sure let's start off with a caller and Bob on the line hello Bob hello hi where are you from Scott hi thank you for taking my call were you from Maine Maine good to have you and what's your question thank you I was just wondering I subject myself to the teaching of the Pope of course regards to the emphasis on the Scriptures but I was wondering why there is more emphasis on the Catechism with all the faulty catechesis has been going on throughout the last decade good question Bob yeah well in this document there he is I mean earlier Pope Benedict ven Cardinal Ratzinger wrote a little book called gospel catechism catechesis in which he basically says that the Catechism is not only the script is the most description Lee saturated catechism minister the church but that one section that goes from 101 to 141 is the finest summary of how to read the Bible that the church has ever given us but it's not just about the Bible he talks about the importance of the Catechism and how it draws from Scripture in tying all the the mysteries of faith together so I want to thank Bob for raising the question because the answer is this is really clearly an emphasis a priority for Pope Benedict I mean when he was Cardinal Ratzinger he and Cardinal schönborn were responsible for not only drafting the Catechism but overseeing the whole process of editing and I mean what resulted in the early 90s was truly a masterpiece and he's calling people back to it all the time right no that's that's a good thing and I think you can even get copies of the Catechism online as well as printed copies yeah I'll never forget one time a priest told a lady I know she was at a Bible study I was doing and a priest told her that you know she should not be reading the Catechism was only meant for the bishops and I said to her madam they printed two million copies of the Catechism how many times do the bishops need to read it I mean yeah that's that's strange yeah we have a question from our studio audience ma'am where are you from hi I'm from Orlando Florida good to have you here and what is your question I just like to know how does the Eucharist tie in with Calvary and where's the connection there great stuff Shirley thank you very much you know I think we all know what Calvary represents and that is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and the supreme sacrifice of all time but what I don't think we recognize and what Pope Benedict points out in a lot of his writings going way back to long before he became Pope is that the eyewitness is standing there at Calvary would not have left that place and gone home and talked to their family and friends and described what they had experienced in terms of a sacrifice the Centurion certainly wouldn't but even the devout Jews because it took place outside the walls of Jerusalem it was far away from the temple there were no altars there were no priests and thus for those Jews well they were priests but they weren't offering sacrifice that's right they were witnessing a Roman execution plain and simple now for the devout followers they might have insisted quietly oh it wasn't just a Roman execution this was more like a hero's martyrdom but even they would not have said oh no this was the supreme sacrifice of all time so we know on the one hand all Christians in the 21st century Protestant Catholic Orthodox affirm this common conviction that what happened at Good Friday on Calvary was the supreme sacrifice of all times in spite of the fact that none of the eyewitnesses would have been capable of driving that is anything more than an execution or maybe a martyrdom so how was it in the first century in the first generation of the first century that all believers came to the same conclusion that we share today well probably the best witness to that is Saint Paul in one of his earliest writings first Corinthians five verses five six and seven he announces Christ our Passover lamb has been sacrificed for us therefore let us keep the feast and he goes on to identify what feast he's talking about in the subsequent chapters where he expounds the Eucharist but what does he mean Christ our Passover what he's really saying is the only way to make sense out of what happened to Jesus on Good Friday is by backing up to see what he was doing on Holy Thursday in the Upper Room he was not just celebrating the Old Covenant Passover one last time he was fulfilling it as the Lamb of God but he wasn't just fulfilling it he was transforming that into the Passover of the new covenant precisely by instituting the Eucharist when he said this is my body which will be given up for you or this cup is the new covenant in my blood those disciples must have been sitting around that table they're watered wait a minute that's not in the in the liturgy that's not in the Seder what is that I mean is it some new religious rhetoric is it some new ritual component and they would also have a problem because it was not a sacrifice being offered in the temple precincts which was the only place where they could offer sacrifice exactly so this is not the Old Covenant sacrifice of the Old Covenant priesthood of the Old Covenant liturgy this is its fulfillment and transformation so what Jesus said and dot and did in the Upper Room on Holy Thursday by instituting the Eucharist that is the light that illuminates this tragedy this misfortune this Roman execution so that suddenly you realize he didn't lose his life on Friday he had already given it on Holy Thursday as he told the disciples no one has the power to take my life from me I have the power to lay it down and I've also got the power to take it back up again now I think if the Centurions had overheard that remark they would have beg to differ oh no we have the power but before they could take his life he had already given his life in the Eucharist by saying this is my body which will be given up for you this cup is the blood of the new and everlasting covenant there in the garden I suspect Peter James and John besides fighting sleep we're trying to figure out what did he say what did he mean but they weren't really capable of explaining I've understanding that until the next day when Jesus body was given up for them when Jesus blood was poured out for many for the remission of sins so it's Holy Thursday the Eucharist that illuminates Good Friday into being so much more than an execution it is the sacrifice that fulfills the old covenant but it's also what completes the Eucharist these are inseparably connected and then of course Easter Sunday is what is what enables those apostles not only to seed the resurrection but also to celebrate the sacrament because the sacrament of the Eucharist is the resurrected body of Christ Christ has died Christ is risen and Christ will come again and so the the Paschal mystery that we celebrate in the tritium at the climax of you know of Lent this should lead us to a new appreciation for how Christians back in the first century came to recognize what all Christians see in the 21st century but I think it's also important for all Christians in the 21st century to realize that we are affirming what would have been unofficially minutes that execution and transforms that into the sacrifice of all times alright let's now go to another call they have taught on the line hello Todd hi Todd from Harrisburg Pennsylvania how are you fine thanks what's your question I think he answered most of it I'm a Protestant for many years and recently been in the Reformed Church and I've heard everything about the Eucharist and the Reformed Church as it either being a form of idolatry a form of heresy and you name it and it's yet the one thing for the last 10 years that is quickened my heart to come back to Rome as I've heard it so many times I may be excused my phrase dumbing it down for the audience and the people that are listening tonight but can you explain to me just again why we have the Eucharist in the church and and just for the edification of everybody not aside and for me really I'd appreciate everybody's prayer I start our CI a tomorrow night and I'm very excited about it and I just asked for your your prayers with regards to that and for my family as we bring unity to our family and I'll stop now and let you answer okay thank you Todd yeah Todd thank you I mean I'm coming up to Easter to celebrate my 25th anniversary into coming into the Catholic Church and I am so thrilled but I am more grateful for my Evangelical Protestant formation now than I was when I was ordained a Protestant minister I am so grateful for the the Bible Center evangelical Reformed training but this one thing that it prepared me to recognize was that just as you had in the Old Covenant the exodus that brought Israel out of bondage so in the New Covenant you have a new Exodus but just as the old Exodus was only made possible by the new Exodus you mean the death and resurrection of Jesus chemistry where we're not delivered from Egypt but delivered from sin and death from the real bondage well just as the Passover is what made the first Exodus possible by slaughtering the lamb step1 by shedding and sprinkling the blood step 2 but step 3 was just as important you had to eat the lamb whether you liked lamb or not that was the sacrificial communion and if you chose not to follow through on the third step chances are you'd wake up and the firstborn might have died so you had to slaughter the lamb sprinkle and shed that blood but she had to eat the lamb because that symbolized the communion sacrifice so in the New Testament Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world by dying he had to be sacrificed but also by shedding his blood but he made provisions for the new Passover in a way that would fulfill the old precisely by giving to us not a mere symbol of his body and blood back in Egypt if you had taken a vote in your family and said mama we've decided unanimously we're gonna we don't like mutton why don't you make some matzah in the form of a lamb we'll eat that and remembrance of Moses you'd awakened and your firstborn would die so likewise we have to eat the lamb that is not an option he has to die shed his blood but make provisions for the sacrificial communion of the new Passover and he prepared his disciples for this one year earlier in John 6 he was celebrating the Passover for the second to last time by multiplying the loaves feeding the 5,000 from five loaves and two fish filling twelve baskets of leftovers which opened their eyes are like twelve baskets this is the new Moses he's gonna bring about a new covenant a new Exodus but it's precisely on that occasion where Jesus spoke about not only being the new manna but the bread which is given for the life of the world which is my flesh to eat and it goes on and on to say my flesh is food indeed my blood is drink indeed he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him and so on you know those disciples must have been just as bewildered a year earlier as they were that evening on Holy Thursday what does he mean well one year later they realized what he means and that is he is the Lamb who must die he is the Lamb who sheds his blood but he also is the new Passover who makes provisions for us to enjoy this covenant communion in this new sacrifice and as I discovered this in the writings of Ratzinger and others I also found that just throughout their the early church fathers this wasn't a debated proposition this was the gospel and this is how we renew our covenant every Lord's day when we gather for the New Testament which is the Eucharist according to the New Testament and so I really want to encourage Todd to lay hold of the Church's teaching in our CIA and to just celebrate the graces that reunite his family but also to pray for our separated brothers and sisters because I really want to affirm them that that so many people outside the Catholic Church are doing their very best open to the Holy Spirit following Christ reading Scripture sharing what they learn very little earful absolutely and sometimes far more devout than their Catholic and yet at the same time I can see the holy spirit blowing powerfully outside the the structures of the Catholic Church Tod's another example of how the holy spirit blows many of those people closer and closer to Jesus in the Eucharist to what Jesus established in the church when he said on this rock I will build my church so Todd thank you and god bless you for that yeah that's a that's a great response um one one of the things that you said in our conversation is that this new document verbum Domini the word of the Lord is very accessible now I've read a fair amount of Pope Benedict's writings and for a lot of people they're gonna be a little bit of it stretch a little bit of a sound Reesie you know accessible but it's not just like you know it's not fluff no that's right no no so so can the average reader will be able to read this document yeah I would say this look the average American with a little bit of effort can read the stock market report they can read box scores in Major League Baseball they can follow football statistics as well as economic decline and up you know up turns and this sort of thing well you know we we accept the fact that we make sacrifices and all these other areas of life business sports and entertainment why not make the same kinds of sacrifices to really come to a better understanding of the faith by carefully and slowly reading Pope Benedict I you know I've heard somebody make the cook in the comparison that his writings are like the Caribbean I remember being on a glass-bottom boat in the Caribbean well here's why I knew exactly what he's talking about when I was in a glass-bottom boat the guide asked us how far down do you think the bottom is we said 10 15 maybe 20 feet he said 60 we're like wait a minute it's so clear it's so accessible and yet it's so deep that's what Pope Benedict's writings are oh they're so clear they're so accessible but when you spend time up pina coladas or something sorry to disappoint you but they're deep and they're written so clearly that it's almost you know it's almost misleading you think well you know this is understandable but when you read it slowly you're like oh this is more than understandable this is inexhaustible right there's a great depth to it and and I just finished it part 2 of Jesus of Nazareth and it's it's phenomenal but it's it's difficult it's got some difficult elements to it but it's worth the effort it's worth every bit of the effort because there's great death there and it's the kind of thing I've already started to reread because there's so much there me too you know and if the average EWTN viewer would pick up volume 1 and volume 2 or verbum domini and spend whatever time they need to get it I I promise your life will be changed your parish will be changed as a matter of fact one of the things I would recommend is perhaps bringing this to the Blessed Sacrament chapel yes and using this for your meditation so you take it in bite sized chunks and you don't have to read the whole thing at one no in fact you need to not read the whole thing at once right right you know I wrote a book last year called covenant and communion the biblical theology of Pope Benedict and I set an off tool it's a good book thank you I liked it I sent it off to a Protestant publisher Baker thinking well the chances aren't very great but maybe just maybe they'd be interested well they were more than interested they were enthused and they got a number of Protestant theologians and biblical scholars who endorsed the book basically saying we had no idea that their Pope is so good at making the Bible come alive and I mean it's it's it's a secret among non Catholics but I think I think it's a secret among some Catholics too that he really writes in a way that makes the scriptures pulsate exactly exactly we have Deena on the line hello Deena hi how are you fine were you from from New York great and what is your question well my husband and I were wondering if you can give us some pointers and engaging the youth in a ministry setting in particular dealing with the subject of depression wow I mean this is some ways outside field but the first thing I think of is the Book of Psalms yeah because I remember reading a book that was a commentary on the Psalms and the comment was that the psalmist is someone who's clearly prone to melancholy and a depression not that he has you know a psychological disorder because I if that's the case I would recommend a professional counselor but so often were depressed because we haven't really let ourselves in on our fears we haven't let our Lord in on our fears I remember one time in Assisi where I was afraid for my son Joseph life and at midnight I began to pray and I felt God's presence the room and I felt like he was asking me are you afraid what are you afraid of I'm like am i afraid what be careful don't ask questions you know and I just poured out my heart I'm a friend gonna lose my son over here Italy I'm afraid of this I'm afraid of that I went on praying for like 15 20 30 45 minutes and all of a sudden I realized I wasn't letting God in on some secrets about all the things that I was afraid of he was shown me why I was so depressed well I was so stricken by fear he basically peeled back the layers of fear over and over again just like you're afraid of this you're afraid of that this that and the other thing come to me let me know your fears because in the process I'm gonna show you my grace and my power and how strength is made perfect in weakness now I don't want to give some pietistic solution to something that might be a serious problem so that at the same time I would recommend you know seeking help from a priest or from a counselor and that sort of thing but perhaps you could also recommend some writings yeah I would say one of the perspectives I have on depression is that it's not the same thing as sadness or being down or melancholia right it's the suppressing of feeling it's trying to stuff our feelings down and hold our feelings in and that becomes exhaustive you know exhausting excuse me it becomes exhausting and one of the things that you said I think is exactly right helping a person who's depressed to pray the Psalms we're a large rain change of feelings are expressed and the strong emotions sometimes it even says that it's cries out and now it cries out it's so you know blah it's the word is to scream out right zag and and you know to scream out is maybe a good thing to do sometimes that helps depressed people if they maybe to do it in the car when you're driving down the expressway so nobody hears you but you know it's not a bad thing to scream out and some of the other experiences of grief anger and other emotions sadness oh yeah the sadness is not depression and it's a good thing to express those feelings and scripture can help you to do that but there's another element as well especially in the Old Testament in the book of Genesis in particular you see a number of episodes in the life of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and one of the things that's characteristic of Hebrew writing is that they never tell you what they feel they never tell you what they feel you know were you boys been oh I just went out to sacrifice our only son how are you doing know that I mean all the emotions anguish all whatever emotion is there is left unstated and one of the things that a depressed person might be able to do is meditate on that and then say if I were Abraham what would I be feeling if I rise it would might be feeling when my dad tries to stab me and if I were Sarah when I find out about this what would I be feeling and this is one way to find a window into one's emotions and at the same time do so prayerfully right that might be a good way to do it and especially to pray not just as a dutiful servant or an employee of God but as a child you know yes you know the experts on the Psalms point out that out of 150 Psalms 40 2% are classified as Psalms of complaint or lament now I wouldn't complain to God well the fact is the Bible does right I mean Israel grumbled in the wilderness which is complaining about God behind his back though he always hears but the psalmist complains to God and why you wouldn't complain to someone unless you trusted them unless you believed that they cared and could do something about it and and and the fact is that I just heard father Dan my friend who's the chairman of our department up at Steubenville preached a homily last week where he was looking at the Psalms and saying why are we so hesitant to make demands of God the psalmist sarn't and when you look at the the Lord's Prayer the our Father I mean the first three petitions deal with thy name and thy kingdom and I will but the last four give us forgive us lead us and delivers our imperative you know children can make demands of a father precisely because he's a father and so my kids have come to me and have never hidden their complaints you know and the fact is God is a father who's not afraid of our fears and so he wants us to come to him with them and he's even given us prayers to kind of jumpstart that sort of honest heart to heart prayer and that might be one way to help to deal with depression we hopefully will keep in our prayers yeah one of the problems is that they always come to an end thank you very much for being here this is a great show and it's good to have you with us and it's great to be with you all too so I'd like to give you a blessing may Almighty God bless you and keep you and cause his face to shine upon you may he lead you in all of your ways and guide you by his peace in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit amen amen and I always like to remind you that this network is really brought to you by you you make this network possible by your contributions and your prayers and because of what you do we can bring you Scott and all the other people who come here as guests on this show on the other programs so we ask you please keep us in between your gas bill and your electric bill and your cable bill and we'll be able to pay all of our bills and bring you more programming to help illumine our faith god bless you and thank you you

Channel: EWTN

Views: 27,556

Rating: 4.8881121 out of 5

Keywords: EWTN, EWTN Live, Mitch Pacwa, Scott Hahn, Benedict XVI, Verbum Domini, Pope, Catholic

Id: 6PAOjD0iDEM

Length: 56min 31sec (3391 seconds)

Published: Thu Mar 03 2011