[MUSIC] [APPLAUSE] >> THANK YOU. THANK YOU AND WELCOME. I'M FATHER MITCH PACWA AND WELCOME TO EWTN LIVE. TONIGHT, WE'VE GOT A VERY INTERESTING CONVERSATION LINED UP WITH AUTHOR STEVE RAY TALKING ABOUT THE PAPACY. DOES A LOT FOR IGNATIUS PRESS AND EWTN. BUT BEFORE WE GET TO THAT, WE WANT TO BRIEFLY TALK TO EWTN'S DIRECTOR OF ONLINE SERVICES, JEFF HAHN, FOR OUR WEB SITE, ewtn.com. >> NOW, SOME PARTS OF THE WEB SITE HAVEN'T BEEN UPDATED SINCE THE EARLY 2000s. AND LIKE THE DAILY READINGS AND DEVOTIONS THAT WE HAVE, IT'S ALL MOBILE FRIENDLY, DEVICE, ANY SIZE TV OR WHATEVER. AND IT'S GOING TO ADJUST TO THE SCREEN. >> Fr. Pacwa: THE DOCUMENTS LIBRARY IS STILL THERE? >> YEAH, STILL THERE. WE HAD A SECTION CALLED FAITH SECTION AND NOW IT'S CALLED CATHOLICISM. UNDER THERE, YOU GET DAILY READINGS, DOCUMENT LIBRARY, CHURCH TEACHINGS, LITANIES, NOVENAS, IT'S ALL THERE. >> Fr. Pacwa: I LIKE THAT. BECAUSE THE DOCUMENTS LIBRARY IS MY FAVORITE. SO FOLKS CAN UNDERSTAND, YOU KNOW, I CAN QUOTE THE FATHERS OF THE CHURCH AND STUFF. BUT I CAN GET THE WHOLE OF THEIR TEXT FOR FREE! AND SO CAN YOU. SO, EWTN, GO TO THE WEB SITE, ewtn.com THAT'S THE NAME OF THE WEB SITE. AND PLUS YOU CAN SEE ALL OF THE PROGRAMS, LISTEN TO THE PODCASTS, ON THE RADIO. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO ALL OF THAT. BUT I CAN STILL READ! >> SO, THIS PROGRAM IS UPLOADED TO THE WEB SITE EWTN PAGE AND IF YOU MISSED AN EPISODE, YOU CAN GO RIGHT THERE AND SEE IT! >> Fr. Pacwa: THERE IS A GREAT, GREAT SERVICE THERE AND THANKS FOR UPDATE US ON THAT. WE GET QUITE A FEW HITS. >> RIGHT, CLOSE TO 8 MILLION VIEWS A MONTH! AND WATCHING VIDEOS WHETHER IT'S ON DEMAND OR LIVE, WE HAVE IN THE APP ALMOST 2 MILLION VIEWS A MONTH. >> Fr. Pacwa: RIGHT. THAT'S A LOT GOING ON. >> THERE IS. >> Fr. Pacwa: THANKS, JEFF. WE APPRECIATE THAT. WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK IN JUST A COUPLE OF MINUTES WITH TONIGHT'S GUEST, SO, PLEASE, STAY WITH US. [APPLAUSE] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] [APPLAUSE] >> Fr. Pacwa: THANK YOU, THANK YOU VERY MUCH AND WELCOME BACK. OUR GUEST TONIGHT IS A CONVERT TO THE CATHOLIC FAITH, AND AFTER COMING INTO THE CHURCH IN 1994 HE'S BEEN LEARNING A LOT MORE ABOUT THE FAITH, ABOUT BUT ALSO TEACHING PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WORLD ABOUT THE WONDERS OF THE CATHOLIC FAITH. HE LEADS PILGRIMAGES TO DIFFERENT PLACES AND WRITING BOOKS, AND HIS LATEST BOOK, PERTINENT FOR OUR TIMES, "THE PAPACY, WHAT THE POPE DOES AND WHY IT MATTERS". SO, PLEASE, WELCOME, STEVE RAY. >> Guest: WELL, THANK YOU, FATHER MITCH. SO, I WORE THIS, I KNOW I CAN'T WEAR IT THROUGH THE WHOLE SHOW. BUT IT'S AN HONOR FOR ME TO BE HERE. I'VE ALWAYS RESPECTED YOU AND YOUR KNOWLEDGE, ALL THAT YOU DO. >> Fr. Pacwa: ALWAYS A DELIGHT TO HAVE YOU HERE TOO. YOU HAVE DONE SOME GREAT SHOWS. AND WHEN YOU DID SOME OF THE SERIES FOR THE IGNATIUS PRESS AND SHOWN ON HERE AND SUCH, IT'S DONE WITH A LOT OF FUN AND INTEREST, NOT JUST TALKING. MY FAVORITE IS YOU GOING DOWN THE BASKET OUT OF THE WALLS OF DAMASCUS. THAT WAS PRETTY GOOD! KIND OF SPINDLY, THOUGH. NOW, YOU WROTE THIS OTHER BOOK ON THE PAPACY. WHAT THE POPE DOES AND WHY IT MATTERS. THAT SOUNDS LIKE A JOB DESCRIPTION. >> Guest: YOU NAILED IT! YOU REALLY NAILED IT. THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THIS BOOK IS. AS A CONVERT, I HAD TO STRUGGLE WITH THE WHOLE IDEA OF AUTHORITY. I WAS A BIBLE-ONLY GUY. I WOULD HAVE CITED MARTIN LUTHER, I AM MY OWN POPE AND COUNCIL, I DON'T NEED THEM. I AM EVANGELICAL PROTESTANT AND I HAVE THE WORD OF GOD. SO, WHEN THIS CONVERSION PROCESS STARTED, I HAD TO DEAL WITH THE ISSUE OF AUTHORITY AND THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS THIS BOOK CAME OUT. >> Fr. Pacwa: WHY? WHAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH AUTHORITY? PEOPLE TELL YOU WHAT TO DO ALL THE TIME. >> Guest: EXACTLY. AND MY THOUGHT WAS, THIS IS THE WAY I USED TO SAY IT, DON'T MEAN TO BE DISRESPECTFUL. I DON'T NEED SOME OLD MAN IN ROME TO TELL ME. I HAVE THE BIBLE AND I WORK IT OUT WITH THE WORD OF GOD. SO I DON'T NEED THE AUTHORITY. >> Fr. Pacwa: WELL, WHAT WAS THE PROBLEM? WHY DID YOU START LOOKING FOR THE AUTHORITY? >> PEOPLE ASKED ME WHY I CONVERTED. AND I SAID, IT'S NOT BECAUSE I SAW ANYTHING GOOD ABOUT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. THAT'S NOT WHAT STARTED IT. TO ME, IT WAS COVERED WITH A FOG OF LIES AND MISCONCEPTIONS, CARICATURES. I NEVER SAW THE TRUE CHURCH. WHAT HAPPENED TO ME, THE CONVERSION OCCURRED WHEN I SAW THE PROBLEMS WITH PROTESTANTISM. AND MY DAD WAS A CHURCH HOPPER. HE WENT TO THIS CHURCH DIDN'T LIKE THAT, WENT TO ANOTHER CHURCH AND THEN ANOTHER AND YOU KNOW, AND I KEPT UP THAT TRADITION UNTIL I WAS A YOUNG BHAN, BECAME 39-YEARS-OLD. AND THEN YOU GET TIRED OF THIS. AND YOU THINK, YOU KNOW, WHAT DID JESUS EXPECT? THERE'S AT LEAST 39,000 DENOMINATIONS OR HOWEVER MANY. AND I CAN'T VISIT ALL OF THEM. AND THEN MY FRIEND, AL KRESPA, HE'S ON THE RADIO AND HE WAS A PROTESTANT PASTOR. AND ONE SUNDAY, HE SAID, STEVE MY WIFE AND I DECIDED TO GO PACK TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. AND I SAID, AL, THAT'S THE STUPIDEST THING I'VE EVER HEARD. YOU ARE WAY TOO SMART TO DO THAT. AND SO MY WIFE AND I SAID, LET'S STUDY, AND WE'LL CONVINCE HIM HOW WRONG HE IS. AND IN PROCESS, I WAS ALREADY SEEING THE PROBLEM WITH THE PROTESTANTISM. THE FRAGMENTATION, DIFFERENT GROUPS, THEY ALL SAY THEY ARE STUDYING THE SAME GROUP, SAME HOLY SPIRIT AND THEY COME UP WITH ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT IDEAS. SO, EITHER THE HOLY SPIRIT IS VERY CONFUSED, WHICH I KNEW WASN'T THE CASE. OR ELSE, WE'RE GOING ABOUT IT WRONG. THAT'S WHAT FORCED ME BACK TO THE APOSTOLIC FATHERS. I DON'T EVEN SAY CHURCH FATHERS. >> Fr. Pacwa: YEAH, WHAT'S THAT MEAN? TELL US ABOUT THAT. >> WELL, THEY ARE THE ONES THAT KNEW THE APOSTLES. THEY WERE IN THE FIRST GENERATION. >> SAINT POLYCARP. >> RIGHT. AND IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH AND CLEMENT OF ROME. AND WE EVEN MADE A MOVIE ON THEM. AND I SAY, THEY TWISTED MY ARM AND DRAGGED ME KICKING AND SCREAMING INTO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. I NEVER WANTED TO BE A CATHOLIC CHURCH. AND I DIDN'T CARE WHAT THE CHURCH FATHERS SAID, AUGUST IB THAT GAVE HIM 400 YEARS TO GET IT MESSED UP. BUT THE PURE, PRISTINE APOSTLES IN THE FIRST HUNDRED YEARS, YOU KNOW, THY HAD TO BE PROTESTANT. AND HE COULDN'T BE CORRUPTED BECAUSE I WAS TOLD ALL OF THAT CAME ABOUT IN THE MIDDLE AGES. SO, I WENT BACK TO THE CHURCH FATHERS AND I HONESTLY LET THEM SAY WHAT THEY SAID. THEY BELIEVED IN THE PAPACY. AND IT WAS OBVIOUSLY, CLEMENT AND IGNATIAN, THEY WERE THE FIRST WRITERS AND I READ THE APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY THEY DIDN'T EVEN HAVE THE SAME AUTHORITY THAT I HAD. THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE NEW TESTAMENT THAT WAS YET TO COME FOR ANOTHER 400 YEARS. AND I ASKED MY FRIEND, THE FIRST CHRISTIANS WERE KILLED BY LIONS, BURNED IN FLAMES, HAD THEIR HEAD CUT OFF. AND THEY STOOD STRONG FOR JESUS! THEY DIDN'T EVEN HAVE THE BOOK YET. AND THEN THE NEXT GENERATION FOUGHT ALL THESE HERESIES, JESUS WASN'T GOD, DIDN'T HAVE TWO NATURES. HOW DID THEY KNOW TO DEFEND THE TRUTH OF THAT WITHOUT THE BOOK? AND THEN, I STARTED READING EUSEBIUS' CHURCH HISTORY AND I FOUND THE PHRASE, TRADITION. BISHOP, DEPOSIT OF FAITH. AND I SAID. WAIT A MINUTE. WHY AM I SO CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT MY PASTOR IS TELLING ME TODAY WHEN I CAN GO BACK AND LISTEN TO THE VERY FIRST PASTORS WHO KNEW THE APOSTLES. THAT WAS MY DOWNFALL. I SAY TO PEOPLE, IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE A CATHOLIC, DON'T EVER READ THE APOSTOLIC FATHERS. >> YEAH, YEAH. AND ON THE OTHER HAND, IF YOU WANT TO UNDERSTAND THE ORIGINS OF CHRISTIANITY, YOU GOT TO GO TO THE ORIGINAL GUYS. AND HOW DID THAT, THOUGH, GET YOU TO ACCEPTING THE PAPACY? >> WELL, I WROTE ANOTHER BOOK EARLIER THAN THIS ONE CALLED, UPON THIS ROCK. AND IT GOES THROUGH ALL OF THE BIBLICAL PASSAGES IN THE FIRST EIGHT CENTURIES. AND WHERE PETER GOES THERE, IS THE CHURCH. AND I FOUND IT ON THE AND PUT IT ON THE PARCHMENT ON MY COMPUTER AND I FOUND THIS ONE, ANOTHER ONE, AND THEN, YOU KN KNOW IT ED UP BEING THE BOOK. AND THE FIRST INDUSTRIES, THEY -- CENTURIES, THEY ACCEPTED AND UNDERSTOOD THE WRITINGS OF THE FIRST BISHOPS OF ROME. THERE WAS NO EXCEPTION OF THAT, THEY ALL MOVED ON WITH IT AND NOTHING CHANGED UNTIL THE PROTESTANT REVOALTD. AND PEOPLE SAY, WHY ARE YOU A CATHOLIC. AND I SAY, BECAUSE I'M A SKEPTIC. AND I SAY, I'M A SKEPTIC, I HAVE TO HAVE IT PROVED, I HAVE TO KNOW THINGS. I AM SUCH A SKEPTIC, I ENDED UP BEING CATHOLIC. >> Fr. Pacwa: WELL, SOMETIMES PEOPLE SAY, WELL, I'M A SKEPTIC. AND THEY DON'T ACCEPT ANY PROOF FOR WHAT THEY ARE SKEPTICAL ABOUT. THAT BECOMES AND IMPOSSIBLE SITUATION WHERE YOU HAVE TO ESTABLISH CERTAIN CRITERIA AND YOU SAY, OKAY. IF THAT'S THE CASE, THEN THIS IS TRUE. >> AND THAT FOR ME WAS THE BIBLE. BUT WHEN I THEN TOOK THE BIBLE AND I EXTRAPOLATED IT OUT TO THOSE EARLY CHRISTIANS, THEN I REALIZED HOW THE EARLY CHURCH. AND MY DAD TOLD ME WHEN I WAS A BOY, FOLLOW THE TRUTH EVEN IF IT HURTS. WHEN I SAW THAT, I HAD TO DO THAT. AND EVEN THOUGH I DIDN'T WANT TO BE CATHOLIC, AND WE LOST ALL OUR FAMILIES AND FRIENDS WITHIN TWO WEEKS. AND OUR FAMILY CAME BACK BUT OUR FRIENDS NEVER DID. AND DISCOVERING THE PAPACY FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, THERE WAS A TEACHER, AND A GOVERNOR, WHO GOVERNED AND TAUGHT AND SANCTIONED FIED -- SANCTIFIED ALONG WITH THE OTHERS, AND NOT ONLY WAS IT BEAUTIFUL AND SUSTAINED THE CHURCH FOR 2,000 YEARS, BUT IT CAME RIGHT OUT OF THE ROOTS OF JUDAISM, THE SAME FLOW AND CONTINUITY AND TODAY I WAS A CHRISTIAN DISCOVERING SOMETHING HAPPENING EVER SINCE MOSES CAME DOWN FROM MOUNT SINAI. I COULDN'T WAIT TO GET INTO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. >> Fr. Pacwa: THIS IS SOMETHING THAT'S IMPORTANT IN LOOKING AT THE APOSTOLIC FATHERS. SAINT CLEMENT WAS ONE OF THE POPES IN THE YEAR 95. AND HE WRITES TO A CHURCH FAR AWAY IN CORINTH, IN GREECE. PUTS THEM IN ORDER. THEY HAD KICKED ALL OF THEIR PRIESTS AND BISHOPS OUT BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T LIKE THEM, THEY DIDN'T LIKE WHAT THEY TAUGHT. THEY KICKED THEM OUT. AND HE SAID, NO, YOU CAN'T DO THAT. AND IT'S A LONG EXPLANATION TO SWAY THEM. AND THEY LISTENED. THEY DID IT. >> AND HE SAID, AS THE BISHOP OF ROAM ROME, SPEAKING AS THE BISHOP, IF YOU DON'T LISTEN TO ME, US, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT, IN OTHER WORDS, THE HOLY SPIRIT IS WORKING THROUGH US. IF YOU DON'T LISTEN TO US AND TO THE HOLY SPIRIT, YOU ARE GOING TO BE IN NO SMALL SIN. THAT'S NOT JUST AN AVERAGE PASTOR SPEAKING. THIS IS SOMEBODY WHO HAS AUTHORITY OVER THE CHURCH. AND JOHN, IT'S PRESUMED THAT JOHN THE APOSTLE IS ONLY 600 MILES AWAY FROM CORINTH, WHY NOT APPEAL TO HIM, HE'S STILL A LIVING APOSTLE. INSTEAD THEY ARE A THOUSAND MILES APPEALING TO CLEMENT, PETER, LINUS, CLEMENT AND THEY APPEALED TO HIM TO HAVE THEM FIX THE PROBLEM. >> RATHER THAN THE APOSTLE JOHN WHO IS STILL GOING TO BE ALIVE FOR ANOTHER FIVE TO 10 YEARS. >> YEAH. YEAH. >> Fr. Pacwa: AND THIS IS KEY. AND BY THE WAY, SO FOLKS UNDERSTAND, WHEN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS, WE ACCEPT THAT REVELATION IS FOUND IN SCRIPTURE AND TRADITION. WHAT WE MEAN IS THE BOOKS YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. THE APOSTOLIC TRADITION. NOT ANY TRADITION COMES ALONG. IT'S NOT, LIKE, CHRISTMAS TREES ARE A TRADITION. YEAH, THEY ARE BUT IT'S NOT AUTHORITATIVE. THE APOSTLES DIDN'T DO THAT. SAINT BONIFACE DID. SO, WE ACCEPT THE APOSTOLIC TRADITION THAT PASSED ON THESE OTHER TEACHINGS AND THE SCRIPTURE. AND THAT REVELATION IS FOUND IN BOTH. >> Guest: EXACTLY. >> Fr. Pacwa: THAT'S IMPORTANT. >> Guest: THE WAY I DESCRIBE IT, WHEN JESUS GOES UP TO THE MOUNT OF OLIVES AND DISAPPEAR IN THE CLOUDS, HE DIDN'T STOP AND SAY, BY THE WAY, GUYS, DON'T FORGET TO READ MY BOOK. AND I ASK PEOPLE, WHAT DID JESUS LEAVE BEHIND? HE LEFT BEHIND 12 MEN. THAT'S ALL HE LEFT BEHIND. THOSE 12 MEN THEN WENT OUT AND ONE WAS CARRYING THE KEYS OF THE KINGDOM. THEY WENT OUT AND TAUGHT AND PRACTICED. AND THE EARLY CHRISTIANS WATCHED WHAT THEY DID, LISTENED TO WHAT THEY SAID. AND THAT BECAME THE APOSTOLIC TRADITION AND OVER TIME, PART OF THAT GOT WRITTEN DOWN AND BECAME THE NEW TESTAMENT. SO, THE NEW TESTAMENT WAS NOT FIRST, IT WAS REALLY LAST. AND THEN THE 12 MEN, THE BOOK. FINALLY, THE BOOK. >> Fr. Pacwa: DID YOU PLAY BASEBALL GROWING UP? >> OH, I LOVED IT. THAT WAS MY SPORT. >> AND YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHAT WE PLAYED IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD ALL THE TIME. THERE WAS AN OPEN PRAIRIE NEARBY AND WE WOULD GO OUT AND PLAY BALL. SO, ONE OF THE IMPORTANT THINGS, THERE ARE RULES FOR BASEBALL. BUT IN GENERAL, YOU DON'T LET THE PLAYERS DECIDE WHO IS OUT AND WHO IS SAFE. AM I RIGHT? >> YOU GOT AN UMPIRE. >> Fr. Pacwa: YOU GOT AN UMPIRE. >> AND WE MAY NOT LIKE WHAT HE SAYS ALL THE TIME. >> Fr. Pacwa: AND OFTENTIMES, THE UMPIRE MAY NOT EVEN BE A GOOD BALL PLAYER BUT HE KNOWS THE RULES. SO, THIS IS HOW I SEE THE PAPACY. IT'S THE UMPIRE. HE MAY NOT BE A GREAT THEOLOGIAN, BUT HE'S STILL THE ONE THAT SAYS, YOU ARE OUT. YOU ARE SAFE. SO, YOU NEED SOMEBODY TO DO THAT. BECAUSE THE PLAYERS, THE THEOLOGIANS, DON'T DO A GOOD JOB OF CALLING THEMSELF SAFE. THAT'S WHERE YOU GET TO LUTHER. SO, TELL US MORE ABOUT THE JOB DESCRIPTION. WHAT THE POPE DOES AND WHY IT MATTERS. >> IT'S NOT ABOUT ANYONE POPE. IT'S ABOUT -- >> Fr. Pacwa: THE OFFICE. >> THE OFFICE. THAT'S RIGHT. HOW HAS THE CHURCH, BASED ON SCRIPTURE AND THAT TRADITION WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, HOW IS THAT PRESENTED TO US, THE OFFICE, HOW DOES THE POPE GET ELECTED. WHAT'S THE JOB OF THE POPE. WHERE IS HE INFALLIBLE AND WHERE HE IS NOT INFALLIBLE. AND WHAT I WANTED TO DO, WHEN I BECAME CATHOLIC, THERE WAS NOT A BOOK LIKE THIS, THAT I COULD JUST PICK UP, READ, AND GET THE A TO Z OF THE PAPACY. SO, I JUST WANTED TO MENTION, MY COAUTHOR, DENNIS WALTER, A DEACON NOW, HE HELPED ME TO BECOME A CATHOLIC. WHEN I DECIDED TO BECOME CATHOLIC. HE WAS THE THEOLOGIAN THAT WORKED WITH ME AND SPENT TIME WITH ME, ALL THINGS CATHOLIC. I KNEW THE APOLOGETICS AND THE BIBLE PART, BUT HE TAUGHT ME ALL OF THE OTHER THINGS. HE AND I WROTE THIS TOGETHER, AN INVALUABLE FRIEND. ONE OF THE REASONS, IT STARTED OUT TO BE A BIBLE STUDY. AND THEN WE REALIZED IT WAS MUCH MORE THAN THAT. I WANTED PEOPLE TO HAVE A SOURCE THAT THEY COULD GO TO TO UNDERSTAND THE PAPACY FROM SCRIPTURE, TRADITION, HOW A POPE IS ELECTED, GOOD POPES, BAD POPES, WHAT A POPE DOES, WHAT'S THE JOB DESCRIPTION. YOU KNOW, SIMPLE, EASY TO READ FORMAT WITH A LOT OF GREAT QUOTES FROM THE POPES. >> Fr. Pacwa: THERE YOU GO. SO, LET'S TAKE A LOOK. ONE OF THE BIG ISSUES THAT PEOPLE HAVE A PROBLEM WITH, NOT ONLY PROTESTANTS, BUT YOU KNOW, THE EASTERN ORTHODOX COMMUNITIES, THEIR CHURCHES AND EVEN A LOT OF CATHOLICS. AND THAT IS THE ISSUE OF PAPAL INFALLIBILITY. AND THIS WAS NOT DEFINED UNTIL THE FIRST VATICAN COUNCIL IN 18 70. SO, WHY SHOULD WE ACCEPT THAT? WHAT IS IT? AND WHY SHOULD WE ACCEPT IT? >> Guest: A LOT OF TIMES, A YOU KNOW, THINGS DON'T GET DEFINED UNTIL THEY ARE FIRST ATTACKED OR CHALLENGED. >> Fr. Pacwa: THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT. >> EVERYBODY UNDERSTOOD THAT THE BISHOP OF ROME FROM THE VERY BEGINNING WAS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH AND THAT HE HAD THIS AUTHORITY TO LEAD THE CHURCH, TO GOVERN, TEACH, AND TO STANGTIFY THE CHURCH. AND EVEN THE BISHOPS OF THE EAST WERE TO APPEAL TO ROME TO HELP THEM, IF THEY HAD PROBLEMS. THAT WAS THE WHOLE THING. AND THE WHOLE THING OF INFALLIBILITY SAID, JESUS GAVE HIM AND SAID, I'M GIVING YOU THE KEYS. HE MADE PETER THE PRIME ADMINISTRATOR OF THE KINGDOM AND GAVE HIM THE AUTHORITY. HE GAVE HIM A CHARISM, AND HE HAD TO HAVE GIVEN HIM BECAUSE PETER WAS RATHER LOOSE WITH HIS MOUTH AND SAY THINGS QUICKLY. I SAY I BELIEVE IN INFALLIBILITY FROM THE STANDPOINT AND SAY, WHATEVER YOU SAY, I'M GOING TO BACK IT UP AND RATIFY IT IN HEAVEN. NO. HE HAD TO BE SOMEHOW SUPER INTENDED PETER IN WHAT HE SAID FOR THE TEACHING. SO, WE BELIEVE THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT SUPER INTENDS AND ASSISTS THE POPE AS PART OF THE WHOLE CHURCH, THE BISHOPS, AND THE CHURCH IS INFALLIBLE AND THE POPE REPRESENTS THAT. HE HAS THE GIFT OF INFALLIBILITY. IT'S VERY LIMITED. IN OTHER WORDS, WE JUST TALKED ABOUT BASEBALL. THE HOPE IS NOT INFALLIBLE WHEN HE PREDICTION THE BASEBALL SCORE NEXT WEEK OR THE WEATHER. >> NO. NO. >> THAT'S NOT HIS JOB. THE CHARISM OF INFALLIBILITY IS WHEN IT DEALS WITH FAITH AND MORALS. NOT HISTORY, SCIENCE BUT FAITH AND MORALS, OUR TH CATHOLIC FAIH AND THE MORE OR LESS THAT WE HAVE TO FOLLOW. AND -- MOR MORALS WHEN WE HAVE O FOLLOW THIS, AND WITH FREE WILL, WITHOUT A GUN TO OUR HEAD. AND WHEN HE DOES THAT, DEFINING SOMETHING ALREADY IN THE DEPOSIT OF FAITH AND HE'S MAKING IT CLEARER OR MORE PRONOUNCED. LIKE IN 1950, WE'RE CELEBRATING THE ASSUMPTION OF MARY TOMORROW, AND THAT PAPAL BULL THAT HE PUT HIS SEAL ON IT AND DECLARED IT'S A TEACHING. NOT THAT HE JUST INVENTED IT. AS A PROTESTANT, THINK, OH, HE DIDN'T HAVE NOTHING TO DO THAT DAY, THE POPE, AND I'LL SIT DOWN AND INVENT A NEW DOCTRINE. >> RIGHT, NO, THEY DON'T FEEL INFALLIBLE. >> RIGHT. NO. IT WAS DONE BY POLLING OF THE CHURCH, POPE J BISHOPS, AND A WT OF INFORMATION COMES IN AND HE, AS PRIME AUTHORITY AND TEACHER OF THE CHURCH, HE DEFINED THIS. THIS IS WHAT WE'VE ALWAYS BELIEVED, IT'S PART OF THE DEPOSIT OF FAITH AND WE'RE GOING TO CLARIFY IT AND MAKE IT A CLEAR DOCTRINE. SO, ALL OF THOSE FACTORS, WHEN THAT'S INVOLVED, THEN IT'S AN INFALLIBLE TEACHING. BUT OTHER THAN THAT, HE'S NOT INFALLIBLE ON A DAY TO DAY BASIS WHEN HE'S TALKING TO PEOPLE ON A CASUAL BASIS OR PREDICTING FOOTBALL SCORES OR WHATEVER. AND WE HAVE TO, I THINK THAT MOST PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT INFALLIBILITY MEANS THAT HE'S PERFECT SOMEHOW, WE THINK HE'S PERFECT OR HE HE'S NOT A SINNER AND HE CAN ANYTHING HE WANTS AND BELIEVE EVERYTHING HE SAYS AND OBEY IT TO A TEE. >> Fr. Pacwa: NO, NO. TO SAY HE'S WITHOUT ANY SIN WOULD BE CALLED IMPECCABILITY, THAT HE'S UNABLE TO COMMIT A SIN. AND NO, THAT'S NOT THE CLAIM OF THE CHURCH. THERE HAVE BEEN, AS YOU MENTIONED, LOTS OF PEEPS WHO HAVE BEEN PRETTY BAD. AND EVEN THE GOOD ONES GO TO CONFESSION VERY FREQUENTLY. >> ESPECIALLY THE GOOD ONES. >> Fr. Pacwa: YEAH. THAT'S RIGHT. THAT'S IMPORTANT FOR THEM TO STAY GOOD AND JOHN PAUL WENT EVERYDAY. AND THAT HELPED HIM IN HIS SANCTITY. SO, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO DISTINGUISH AND NOT EVERYTHING THAT THE POPE SAYS, EVEN IN FAITH AND MORLS IS INFALLIBLE. BUT HE HAS TO SAY SO. AND IT HAS TO BE TO THE UNIVERSAL CHURCH. IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT HE SAYS, OH, ALL RIGHT. YOU PEOPLE IN BRAZIL, IN 18 80, YOU PEOPLE IN BRAZIL HAVE TO END SLAVERY! WELL, THAT WAS NOT AN INFALLIBLE STATEMENT BUT IT WAS A REQUEST. AND IT WORKED. THEY ENDED, THE LAST CHRISTIAN COUNTRY TO HAVE SLAVERY. THAT WAS TO A LOCAL COMMUNITY. >> AND I SAY, INFALLIBILITY, THE POPE IS A SINNER AND FLAWED INDIVIDUAL, LIKE ALL OF US ARE, HOW CAN HE BE INFALLIBLE. SO THEN I TURNED AND I THOUGHT IT'S IMPOSSIBLE FOR A FALLIBLE SINFUL MAN TO BE INFALLIBLE. SO I SAID WHO WROTE THE BOOK OF MARK, JOHN, AND YOU KNOW, ALL OF THEM ARE FALLIBLE MEN. THEY ARE SINFUL MEN AND YET, EVEN AS A PROTESTANT, I BELIEVED THAT THEY WROTE INSPIRED AUTHORITATIVE SCRIPTURE AND YET, THEY WERE SINNERS. >> THAT DOESN'T STOP GOD. >> NO. >> AND THERE'S STILL ONE OTHER AREA, ESPECIALLY THE NUMBER OF CATHOLICS GET INTO CERTAIN ROW AMONGST THEMSELVES. AND THEY SAY, OH, WAIT A MINUTE. THE POPE DOESN'T MAKE EVERYTHING INFALLIBLE. JUST A FEW INFALLIBLE MADE BY THE POPE SO THEREFORE, I'LL JUST DISREGARD THE REST OF HIS TEACHINGS. HUMANE VITAE IS WAS SAYING THAT BIRTH CONTROL IS FORBIDDEN. HE DIDN'T SAY INFALLIBLE, SO WHAT DO YOU SAY ABOUT THAT? >> THERE WERE TIMES WHEN HE TOLD ME THINGS THAT WERE STRONG, MY FATHER, THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO DO AND THIS IS THE TRUTH. AND THEY WERE OTHER TIMES THAT I HAD TO LISTEN AND RESPECT MY FATHER THERE WAS A SENSE OF RESPECT AND DEFERENCE TO MY DAD BECAUSE HE WAS MY DAD. AND WHEN WE UNDERSTAND THE PAPACY, JESUS INSTITUTED IT HIMSELF, HE SAID, HERE'S WHO IS IN CHARGE WHEN I AM IN HEAVEN, THIS IS THE ONE IN CHARGE OF THE KINGDOM AND GIVES HIM THE KEYS. AND EVEN IF I MAY NOT AGREE WITH EVERYTHING OR THE WAY THINGS ARE CONDUCTED OR WHAT IS SAID, I STILL HAVE TO, WITH GREAT DEFERENCE AND LOVE FOR THE OFFICE AND THE POSITION, ALWAYS TO GIVE THAT MY RESPECT AND UTMOST OBEDIENCE WHENEVER POSSIBLE. THAT'S THE WAY IT SHOULD BE DONE. >> Fr. Pacwa: AND ONE OF THE IMPORTANT THINGS IS THAT YOU ASSUME THAT THESE TEACHING OR FAITH AND MORALS, HE'S TEACHING AUTHORITATIVELY WITHOUT IT BEING INFALLIBLE IT'S STILL THE ORDINARY MAGISTERIUM OF THE POPE. >> IT'S RIDICULOUS TO THINK THAT YOU ONLY OBEY HIM IN THE EXTRAORDINARY WHEN HE MAKES THESE AMAZING, FABLE DI INFALLIE DEFINITIONS ABOUT OF THE POPE OR BY THE POPE. AND YOU KNOW, IT'S ONLY EVERY 50, 06 YEARS IT DOESN'T HAPPEN THAT OFTEN. AND WE'RE REREQUIRED AS THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN A KINGDOM, RECOGNIZE THAT HE REPRESENTS THE KING. AND THAT'S EXACTLY, WE DON'T LIVE IN A DEMOCRACY, WE'RE IN A CHURCH, A KINGDOM, THE KING APPOINTED A ROYAL STEWARD AND WHEN WE LISTEN TO SHOW DEFERENCE TO THE ROYAL STEWARD WE'RE LISTENING AND OBEYING JESUS. >> 25 MORE YEARS BEFORE YOU BECAME A CATHOLIC. I WOULD HEAR A LOT OF CATHOLICS COMPLAINING ABOUT HUMANE VITAE, I DON'T WANT THE POPE IN MY BEDROOM. AND I WOULD LEARN TO RESPOND, WELL ACTUALLY, HE DOESN'T WANT TO BE THERE EITHER! BUT WHAT HE WANTS IS FOR GOD TO BE THERE. AND THAT'S WHAT HE WAS WRITING ABOUT. GOD IS LORD OF LIFE AND LOVE. AND THAT HE IS THE ONE WHO HAS TO BE THE CENTER OF YOUR MARRIAGE. AND ALSO, YOU PLACED INTO HIS HANDS WHETHER YOU HAVE CHILDREN OR NOT. BELIEVE ME, THE POPE DOESN'T WANT TO BE ANYWHERE NEAR YOUR BEDROOM. SO, DON'T MAKE FALSE ARGUMENTS BUT DEAL WITH THE REALITY. AND LOOKING IN RETROSPECT ON WHAT HAPPENED. >> HE WAS PRETTY MUCH PROPHETIC EVEN THOUGH MUCH OF THE CHURCH OPPOSED HIM. AND WE WOULD BE IN A DIFFERENT PLACE IF WE HAD OBEYED HIM. >> Fr. Pacwa: IT WAS INTEREST THAT MANY SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT OF THEMSELVES BEING PROPHETIC OVER AGAINST THE CHURCH. WHEN IN FACT, THEY WERE BEING FALSE PROPHETS OF THE SEXUAL REVOLUTION. AND POPE PAUL 6 -- POPE PAUL VI WAS TELLING THE TRUTH IN THE MIDST OF THE LATE 1960'S. AND THIS IS WHERE WE NEED TO TAKE A LOOK AND YOU LOOK BACK IN 1436, EUGENE IV WAS RIGHT IN CONDEMNING SLAVERY. IT WAS AN EVIL. AND WITH AUTOMATIC EXCOMMUNICATION. AND PEOPLE SAID, OH, HE DOESN'T KNOW WHAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT. BUT HE WAS RIGHT. AND THE POPES FOLLOWED IN CENTURIES AFTER AND AGREED TO THAT. SO, THESE ARE THINGS THAT WE NEED TO BE VERY CAUTIOUS THAT WE DON'T JUST SAY, OH, WELL, I'M GOING TO GO WITH THE SOCIETY AD THE POPE DOESN'T KNOW WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT. THAT'S A BAD SIGN. >> THAT'S A POSITION TO THE END. >> Fr. Pacwa: IT IS. YOU ARE MISSING SOMETHING USUALLY. IT MATTERS THAT THERE'S A POPE. ONE OF THE POINTS THAT YOU MAKE IN YOUR BOOK IS THAT THE POPE THEN BECOMES A FOCUS OF UNITY, TO BRING THE CHURCH TO MOVE FORWARD TOGETHER AND -- >> RIGHT. >> Fr. Pacwa: AND NOT BE SCATTERED. >> I LEARNED FROM ALL OF THE TIME I SPENT IN THE HOLY LAND AND I KNOW YOU KNOW THIS TOO. SHEEP ARE PRETTY DUMB ANIMALS AND I THINK SOMETIMES THAT'S J WHY JESUS REFERRED TO US AS SHEEP OF THE PATST PENNSYLVANIA UR. WE HAVE A EXTENDENCY TO WARNED OFF AND THE SHEPHERDS HAVE THE HOOK AND THEY TAKE THEM BY THE NECK AND PULL THEM BACK. AND IT MAY HURT AND PULLS THE SHEEP BACK AND MAY BE HUMILIATING BUT IT WORKS. AND JOHN, FEED MY SHEEP AND TEND MY LAMB. THOSE WORDS FEED AND TEND COME FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT. THAT'S THE PROPER TEACHING OF THEM. AND TEND MEANS TO GOVERN. THOSE ARE THE TWO MAJOR TASKS OF THE POPE. TO TEND THE SHEEP. THAT MEANED TO GOVERN THEM AND KEEP THEM AS ONE BODY. YOU DON'T LET THE SHEEP, OKAY, YOU 10 FOE OFF. >> Fr. Pacwa: AND NOT TO FORGET, THE OTHER PART OF THE JOB WITH THE STAFF IS WHACK THE WOLVES ON THE HEAD. >> AND THE STUBBORN SHEEP. >> Fr. Pacwa: ALL RIGHT. LET'S TAKE A BREAK. NO WHACKING OF WOLVES AROUND HERE. SO WE WANT TO GET YOUR QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS ABOUT THE PAPACY AND ANY QUESTIONS FROM OUR STUDIO AUDIENCE. AND PLEASE STAY WITH US, AND WE'LL GET TO YOU RIGHT AWAY. [APPLAUSE] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] [APPLAUSE] >> Fr. Pacwa: ALL RIGHT. WE'RE READY FOR QUESTIONS AND LET'S START OFF WITH AL. AL WHERE ARE YOU CALLING FROM? >> Voice: I'M CALLING YOU FROM PENNSYLVANIA. >> Fr. Pacwa: WONDERFUL. >> Voice: I'M CALLING YOU FROM PENNSYLVANIA, SOUTH OF SCRANTON. >> Fr. Pacwa: OKAY. I KNOW THE AREA. SO, WHAT IS YOUR QUESTION? >> Voice: MY QUESTION WOULD BE FOR EITHER OF YOU, PROBABLY YOU, FATHER. WHEN THE POPE DECLARES A SAINT, WHEN HE CANONIZES SOMEBODY AS A SAINT, I, IF HE SPEAKING EX-CATH REFERENCE DRA, SPEAKING FROM THE CHAIR OR IS HE INFALLIBLE? >> I DON'T THINK THAT GOES TO THE LEVEL OF INFALLIBLE. THAT'S FROM THE ORDINARY, BASED ON THE INFORMATION THAT WE KNOW, ON THE SANCTITY OF LIFE, WE'RE CONVINCED THAT THIS PERSON IS WITH THE LORD IN HEAVEN. I DON'T THINK IT GOES TO THE LEVEL OF INFALLIBLE. >> Fr. Pacwa: RIGHT. IT'S NOT INFALLIBLE. BUT IT'S THE ORDINARY TEACHING AUTHORITY. AND IT HOLDS GREAT WEIGHT. IT'S VERY, VERY IMPORTANT. BUT ALSO, SOMETHING ALONG THAT LINE, TOO. NO POPE HAS EVER DECLARED SOMEBODY IS IN HELL. >> Guest: YEAH, THAT'S TRUE. >> Fr. Pacwa: THEY NEVER DO THAT. NOT JUDAS ISCARIOT, NOT ANYBODY DO THEY DECLARE IS IN HELL. THEY CAN SAY CERTAIN BEHAVIOR IS CERTAIN HELLISH BEHAVIOR. THAT YOU CAN SAY. BUT YOU CAN'T SAY, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN SAY, MAKING SLAVES, THAT'S HE WILLISH BEHAVIOR. ABORTING BABIES, THAT'S HELLISH BEHAVIOR. BUT TO SAY SOMEBODY IS IN HELL, WE LEAVE THAT UP TO THE MANAGEMENT, THE JUDGE, AND GOD IS THE MANAGEMENT. >> THAT'S ABOVE OUR PAY SCALE. >> Fr. Pacwa: NOT OUR BUSINESS. SO WE HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION. MA'AM, ARE ARE YOU FROM? >> WELL, I'M LIVING HERE IN BIRMINGHAM BUT FROM MICHIGAN. NOW I HAVE A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS. WERE ANY POPES MARTYRED FOR THE FAITH AND SECOND OF ALL, I JUST LOVE YOUR JOY AND ENTHUSIASM FOR THE FAITH. AND I WANT TO ASK YOU, THAT WHEN YOU RECEIVED YOUR FIRST HOLY EUCHARIST AND YOUR FIRST HOLY CONFESSION, WHAT YOU EXPERIENCED TO ADDRESS CATHOLICS AND THE PROTESTANTS WATCHING THE SHOW, WHAT MADE THAT CHANGE IN YOUR LIFE. WHAT WAS SO SPECIAL? >> Guest: DO WE HAVE ANOTHER HOUR? >> Fr. Pacwa: NO WE DON'T. YOU HAVE TO GIVE US THE LESS THAN READER'S GUY GUEST VERSION. >> WELL, SOME OF THEM ESTIMATE THAT THE FIRST 30 POPES MAY HAVE BEEN -- >> I THINK ALL BUT ONE IN THE FIRST 300 YEARS WAS MARTYRED. >> RIGHT. MARTYRED. AND IF YOU THINK IT FROM THIS STANDPOINT, EVERY ONE OF THOSE MEN WHO TOOK THE CHAIR OF PETER, SAT ON THE CHAIR OF PETER, THEY HAD A BULLS EYE ON THEIR CHEST AND VERY LIKELY THEY WOULD GET KILLED OF THE AND THEY ACCEPTED THE BULLS EYE ON THEIR CHEST AND TOOK THE CHAIR ANY WAY. >> AND IN MODERN TIMES, CERTAINLY THERE WAS AN ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT ON POPE SAINT PAUL VI AND POPE JOHN PAUL II. AND PAUL WAS STABBED, AND JOHN PAUL WAS FAMOUSLY SHOT. >> AND THINK THAT JOHN PAUL II DIDN'T DIE A MARTYR BUT I THINK HE DIED AS A MARTYR. HE JUST WENT WITH HIS BOOTS ON. HE WENT RIGHT TO THE END. AND HE NEVER, I MEAN, TO ME, HE DIED A MARTYR'S DEATH BECAUSE HE COULD HAVE JUST TAKEN THE LAST FIVE OR 10 YEARS IN RETIREMENT. AND QUICKLY ABOUT MY FIRST YEAR AS EUCHARIST. AND BAPTISM IN MY CHURCH, IT WAS NOT IMPORTANT BECAUSE WE DIDN'T KNOW IT DID ANYTHING. I DON'T REMEMBER BEING BAPTIZED BUT I HAD TO GIVE A CONFESSION. I WAS 39-YEARS-OLD AND IT TOOK AN HOUR AND A HALF. AND I REMEMBER WALKING OUT OF THERE, I WAS THREE FEET OFF THE GROUND. I COULDN'T GET MY FEET BACK ON THE GROUND AND I HAD A BIG F HERE FOR FORGIVEN. AND FIRST TIME IN HOLY EUCHARIST, I CRIED ALL THE WAY UP THE AISLE. AND THE PASTOR CRIED TOO BECAUSE HE KNEW ME. AND I THINK THE FIRST TIME, AND I KNOW I DID THIS LATER AND HE SAID BODY OF CHRIST AND I SAID, THANK YOU. AND ON ONE TIME, ON OUR TENTH ANNIVERSARY, HE ASKED OUR FAMILY TO BRING UP THE GIFTS. WE BROUGHT THEM UP. I HAD THE JUG OF WINE AND MY WIFE HAD THE BREAD AND WE HAD FOUR KIDS. AND NOW WE HAVE 17 GRANDKIDS. AND I'M GOING UP SO OVERWHELMED WITH EMOTION AND I THINK ST. PAUL USED TO PERSECUTE THE CHURCH AND NOW, I'M THINKING TO MYSELF THAT WAY, WHY ME. I USED TO CALL THIS IS THE KOOKY CHRIST, MAKING FUN OF THE EUCHARIST. AND HERE I AM WITH TEARS IN MY EYES. AND I WAS SO EMOTIONAL, I TOOK OFF RUNNING AND I RAN UP AND I HUGGED HIM AND SAID, THANKS FOR LETTING ME BE A CATHOLIC. AND HE CAUGHT UP WITH ME AND SAID, OH, THAT'S SO EMOTIONAL AND I KEPT THINKING, WHERE THAT'S JUG OF BINE. I STILL CRY MANY TIMES WHEN I GO UP TO THE EUCHARIST. >> Fr. Pacwa: WE HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION. THANK YOU FOR SHARING THAT. AND FATHER, WHERE ARE YOU FROM? >> I'M FROM BERLIN, GUEST PRIEST OF THE ARCHDIOCESE OF WASHINGTON. HELPING TO SERVE THE FILIPINO COMMUNITIES IN THE AREA. NOW, THE APOSTLES ACTUALLY HAVE SAID, WE ARE CHRISTIANS, ONE IN PRAYER, BREAKING OF THE BREAD, FELLOWSHIP AND ESPECIALLY FIDELITY TO THE APOSTLES INSTRUCTIONS. IF HE DOES IT WITH THE APOSTLES INSTRUCTIONS, PETER IS THE FIRST AMONGST THE RANKS. SO HOW MUCH MORE WE HAVE TO GIVE TO THE SUCCESSOR OF PETER. >> EXACTLY. EXACTLY. IN THE NEW TESTAMENT ALONE, THERE'S SO MUCH EVIDENCE FOR THIS. WHEN JESUS SAID TO THE OTHER DISCIPLES, THE DEVIL HAS REQUESTED TO SIFT YOU ALL AS WHEAT. BUT YOU, PETER, I HAVE PRAYED FOR YOU, PETER -- NOT FOR THE REST OF YOU -- BUT FOR YOU PETER WHEN YOU REPENT AND COME BACK, THAT YOU STRENGTHEN THE BROTHERS. THAT'S AN INTERESTING PASSAGE, ISN'T IT. HE SAYS TO PETER, I'M GOING TO PRAY ARE FOU, BECAUSE I PUT YOU IN CHARGE AND WHEN YOU COME BACG TO THE DENIAL -- ONCE YOU ARE BACK, I WANT YOU TO STRENGTHEN THE REST OF YOUR BROTHERS. >> Fr. Pacwa: AND THINK IN JOHN 21, THE THREE-FOLD QUESTION THAT YOU BROUGHT UP, PETER, DO YOU LOVE ME. FED MY LAMBS. TEND MY SHEEP. FEED MY SHEEP. ALL OF THAT THREE IS TO UNDO THE THREE DENIALS. BUT HE SINGLES PETER OUT FOR SEC SILLIATION. YOU ASSUME THERE WAS A RECONCILIATION FOR THE OTHERS WHO RAN AWAY. BUT HE SINGLES OUT PETER. >> AND MAKE SURE, IT'S IN THE SCRIPTURE FOR THE REST OF HISTORY. BECAUSE AFTER THEY SAW HIM DENY JESUS THREE TIMES AT THE HIGH PRIEST'S HOUSE, THEY ARE GOING TO SAY, WELL, WE'RE NOT GOING TO FOLLOW YOU, PETER. YOU DENIED THE LORD. BUT THAT'S WHY THE LORD THEN GAVE PETER A CHANCE NOW TO REAFFIRM HIS LOVE FOR HIM. AND HIS WILLINGNESS TO FEED THE SHEEP, TEND THE LAMPS BS AND BE THE SHEPHERD. THE NEW TESTAMENT IS FULL OF THIS. >> Fr. Pacwa: AND I OFTEN THINK OF THIS. THEY WERE JUST FISHING AND REMEMBER, HE CALLED PETER, THEY ARE FISHING IN THE BOAT. HE LED A BUNCH OF THEM BACK. BUT THEY ARE FISHING FOR FISH. AND I JUST SORT OF OFTEN THOUGHT, PETER DIDN'T REALLY GET THE IDEA OF THE TRANSITION FROM FISHING FOR FISH TO FISHING FOR MEN. SO, NOW, CHRIST HAS TO USE THE SHEPHERD TO HELP THEM GET IT. PETER DIDN'T ALWAYS GET STUFF FIRST TIME AROUND. YOU SEE THAT OFTEN. >> SO, SIR, WHERE ARE YOU FROM? >> Voice: RALEIGH NORTH CAROLINA. >> GOOD TO HAVE YOU. WHAT'S YOUR QUESTION? >> I WANT TO THANK STEVE FOR HIS WITNESS. MY WIFE AND I ARE REVERTS. WE WERE BOTH RAISED CATHOLICS AND SOJOURNED IN THE CATHOLIC WORLD FOR ABOUT 13 YEARS. AND THEN WE STARTED HAVING SOME THINGS. WE HAPPEN TO SEE YOU ON THE JOURNEY HOME EPISODE, THINK MAYBE IT WAS 2011, 2012. AND REALLY INFLUENCED OUR MOVE BACK. >> Guest: THAT MAKES MY HEART SING. YOU HAVE NO IDEA. >> Fr. Pacwa: WONDERFUL. >> Voice: AND MY QUESTION IS, I HAVE HAD CONVERSATIONS ABOUT PAPAL INFALLIBILITY WITH SOME PROTESTANT FRIENDS. THEY ARE ALL AGHAST THAT WE COULD EVEN COME UP WITH SUCH A THING. AND I READ SOMETHING, I BELIEVE IT WAS IN CARL KEATING'S CATHOLICISM AND FUNDAMENTALISM AND I WANT T TO BE SURE I DIDN'T MISQUOTE IT. AND THAT IT WAS APPROPRIATE RESPONSE WHEN YOU WERE PRESSED ABOUT IT. AND THE IDEA OF THE INFALLIBILITY OF THE POPE IS NOT THAT HE ALWAYS GIVES THE RIGHT ANSWER BUT THE HOLY SPIRIT PREVENTS HIM FROM GIVING A WRONG ANSWER. >> Guest: ACTUALLY, THAT'S A VERY KEY POINT. THE CHARISM OF INFALLIBILITY IS NOT SO MUCH A POSITIVE AS IT WAS A NEGATIVE. IT'S THE I AM PRATURE ON THE BOOK, IT'S NOT THAT HE LIKED IT, IT MEANS THAT THERE'S NO HERESY IN THERE TO LEAD SOMEBODY DOWN THE WRONG WAY. AND IN MANY WAYS, THE INFALLIBILITY SAINT LIKE THAT. IT KEEPS THE POPE AND CHURCH FROM TEACHING INFALLIBILITY AND THINGS WRONG. AND THAT'S A VERY GOOD POINT WE NEGLECTED TO MENTION. >> Fr. Pacwa: AND ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT WE MENTIONED ABOUT THE DOCTRINES OF OUR FAITH IS THAT OFTENTIMES, WELL, I REALLY SHOULD SAY ALL THE TIME, WE DON'T REALLY SOLVE THE MYSTERY OF THE FAITH. PEOPLE WHO FIGURE OUT AND SAY, OH, I UNDERSTAND THE WHOLE MYSTERY OF THE S TRINITY NOW. WELL, AS SOON AS THEY SAY THAT, YOU KNOW THEY MISSED SOMETHING. OUR LITTLE PEA BRAINS CANNOT COMPREHEND GOD'S INFINITY. WHAT WE CAN SAY, THOUGH, SAFELY IS, NO, THAT'S NOT CORRECT. YOU HAVEN'T SOLVED IT. OR MORE TYPICALLY, WHAT HAPPENS IS YOU ACCEPT ONE PART OF THE MYSTERY AND USE THAT ONE PART THAT YOU GET TO GET RID OF THE OTHER PARTS OF THE MYSTERY. SO, THERE'S ONLY ONE GOD. YEAH, I GET THAT. SO, JESUS IS ISN'T GOD. THAT'S THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESS ANSWER. AND THE CATHOLIC ANSWER IS, NO, THERE'S ONE GOD BUT IN THREE PERSONS. AND THE PAPAL INFALLIBILITY SAYS YOU CANNOT DENY THE ONENESS OF GOD. THERE'S NOT THREE GOD'S AND YOU CAN'T SAY THERE'S THREE PERSONS. THERE'S ONE WHAT AND THREE PERSONS. >> AND I REMEMBER WHAT YOU SAID AND I USED IT AND YOU SAID THE WHOLE OLD TESTAMENT IS TRYING TEAT PEOPLE OF VALLEY TO UNDERSTAND GOD. AND THEN AT THE END, GOD TAKES A DEEP BREATH AND YOU GOD SAYS OH, NOW I WANT YOU TO UNDERSTAND THAT GOD IS THREE PERSONS. I USE THAT A LOT. >> Fr. Pacwa: WELL, YOU KNOW, IT'S GOOD. >> AND I LOVE THE IDEA OF FULLY UNDERSTANDING THE TRINITY IDEAS IS THAT STORY OF AUGUSTINE WHEN HE WAS MED STATING ON THE TRINITY IN THE BEACH AND THE LITTLE BOY DUG THE HOLE AND TAKING THE WEATHER AND PUTTING IT IN THE HOLE. AND HE SAID I'M GOING TO TAKE OUT ALL OF THE WATER AND PUT IT IN THE AND HE SAYS, THE OCEAN IS VAST AND INFINITE AND SAID CAN YOU TAKE ALL OF THAT WATER AND HE SAID, NEITHER WILL YOU GET ALL OF THE VAST AND INFINITE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD IN YOUR HEAD. >> Fr. Pacwa: I REMEMBER THAT STORY. THE SISTERS TOLD ME WHEN I WAS IN SEVENTH GRADE. >> THAT'S WHY I REMEMBER IT. BECAUSE I'M A KID AT HEART. >> Fr. Pacwa: TOM, YOU ARE CALLING AND WHERE YOU CALLING FROM? >> Voice: I'M CALLING YOU FROM BROOKLYN, NEW YORK. I HAVE TWO QUESTIONS IF I MAY. NOW WHEN POPE ISSUED HUMAN VITAE AND PRIOR TO TO THAT PEOPLE THAT WERE PRACTICING BIRTH CONTROL, WERE THEY COMMITTED MORTAL SIN? AND NUMBER TWO, WHEN THE POPE DOES ISSUE INFALLIBLE DOCTRINE DOES HE HAVE TO CONSULT WITH THE CARDINALS BEFORE THE ISSUE IS STATE ?D I'LL HANG UP AND LISTEN TO THE ANSWER. THANKS FOR TAKING MY CALL. >> Guest: I'LL TAKE THE FIRST AND MAYBE YOU TAKE THE SECOND. I KNOW THE CHURCH FROM THE VERY BEGINNING CONSIDERED, ALTHOUGH IT'S NOT MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE BUT WHERE IT COMES IN FROM THIS WONDERFUL THING OF TRADITION. CONTRACEPTION AND ABORTION IS A SIN THAT'S TOLD RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING. >> Fr. Pacwa: AND AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, FOLKS CAN GO TO THE WEB SITE WITH THE CHURCH DOCUMENTS ON ewtn.com, AND THE FATHERS OF THE CHURCH. GO TO THE DIDACHAE, THAT FORBIDS, THE WORD THAT'S USED FOR BIRTH CONTROL IS FARMCAIA, SOMETIMES DEFINED AS SORCERY. AND YOU KNOW, WHERE DO YOU GET PHARMACY FROM. THAT'S WHERE. AND IN THE LETTER OF BARNABAS, I BELIEVE, CHAPTER 8, YOU ARE GOING TEE SAO IT THERE AND ATE GOES ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE OLD TESTAMENT, GENESIS. I'M WRITING A COMMENTARY ON THAT. THE SIN OF ONAN, HE WAS TRYING TO DO BIRTH CONTROL ALL THE WAY BACK THERE AND GOD KILLED HIM FOR IT. >> Fr. Pacwa: RIGHT. DOESN'T SOUND LIKE GOD LIKED THAT. >> RIGHT, THE POPE DIDN'T COME UP WITH A NEW IDEA AND TEACH IT. THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS UNDERSTOOD AND TAUGHT IN THE CHURCH FROM THE VERY BEGINNING. >> AND AS A MATTER OF FACT, ALL OF THE FATHERS WHO MENTION EITHER ABORTION ORBITER CONTROL, CONDEMN IT. AND SO DID MARTIN LUTHER. SO DID JOHN CALVIN. THEY AGREED WITH THAT. THIS WAS NOT SOMETHING THAT THE POPE STARTED. HE REAFFIRMED THIS DOCTRINE IN THE FACE OF THE INVENTION OF THE BIRTH CONTROL PILL. THAT'S WHY THEY DID THE ENCYCLICAL. THE PILL WAS INVENTED SO THAT CATHOLICS, I MEAN, THERE'S A MRS. MCCORMICK WHO INHERITED A LOT OF MONEY FROM, MCCORMICK OF CHICAGO, THEY MADE THE FARM MACHINERY BUT AT ANY RATE, SHE DONATED HER MONEY IN THE HARVARD PROFESSOR TO INVENT THIS SO CATHOLICS COULD DO BIRTH CONTROL. BECAUSE THE HEAD OF PLANNED PARENTHOOD WANTED CATHOLICS TO FIND A LEGITIMATE WAY. AND THAT'S WHY THIS CAME UP. BUT BIRTH CONTROL WAS CONDEMNED LONG BEFORE. >> ALL ALONG. >> Fr. Pacwa: AND THEN, SOMETHING, THE SECOND QUESTION THAT HE HAD. THAT WAS ABOUT -- I FORGET NOW. DO YOU REMEMBER? >> Guest: I WAS SO INTENSE ON ANSWERING THIS ONE I DON'T REMEMBER EITHER SLIPPED MY MIND. >> Fr. Pacwa: MAYBE IT WILL COME BACK. OKAY. HERE IT IS, DOES THE POPE NEED TO CONSULT WITH THE CARDINAL TO DECREE SOMETHING INFALLIBLE. >> I DON'T THINK HE NEEDS TO DO THAT BUT HE DOES. >> Fr. Pacwa: RIGHT. NO, IT'S NOT NECESSARY. >> AND HE REALIZED, IT'S MUCH WISER HE'S NOT A SOLE PERSON, HE'S PART OF A COLLEGE OF CARDINALS AND BISHOPS AND KNOWS THAT THERE'S A CENSUS FIDELIUM AND HE WANTS TO GET THE SENSE OF THE FAITHFUL FOR THESE FOLKS HERE, WHAT THEY BELIEVE, SOMETIMES THE SHEEP ARE VERY SMART. I SAID THEY ARE DUMB BE, BUT SOMETIMES THEY ARE SMARTER THAN THINK IT'S A WISE THING AND THE POPE UTILIZES IT. >> RIGHT, BOTH WITH THE INFALLFALLIBLE DECREE OF THE IMMACULATE CONSUMPTION AND THE I ASSUMPTION, THE BISHOPS WERE CONSULTED IN THE WHOLE WORLD AND TOLD TO CONSULT THE LAITY AND AGAIN THE CONSENSUS OF THE PEOPLE. AND THE PRINCIPLE IS THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT WOULD NOT ALLOW THE WHOLE BODY OF CHRIST TO BE DECEIVED ON A PARTICULAR THING. THAT'S WHAT'S GOING ON. SO, LET'S TAKE ANOTHER CALLER. JOE? >> Voice: I'M HERE. I'M FROM MIDDLETOWN CONNECTICUT. >> Fr. Pacwa: GREAT. WELCOME. WHAT'S YOUR QUESTION? >> Voice: OKAY. CAN A CURRENT POPE REVERSE AN INFALLIBLE DECREE OF A PRIOR POPE. >> Guest: NO. >> Fr. Pacwa: NO. >> Guest: AND THAT'S AN INTERESTING POINT BECAUSE EVERY POPE THAT COMES ALONG IS MORE CONSTRAINED T THAN THE POPE BEFE HIM BECAUSE AS ONE POPE DEFINES SOMETHING IN TEACHING, THE NEXT POPE HAS TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT WHAT THAT EARLIER POPE SAID. SO, EACH SUCCESSIVE POPE IS ACTUALLY MORE CONSTRAINED THAN THE ONE BEFORE HIM BECAUSE HE HAS TO STAY WITHIN THE TRUE TEACHING OF THE CHURCH IN THE TRADITION. >> Fr. Pacwa: AND POPE ST. JOHN PAUL DEALT WITH THE QUESTION IS A CERTAIN WAY. HE EMPHASIZED, DEALING WITH A LOT OF ECUMENICAL ISSUES AND ESPECIALLY WORKING WITH THE EASTERN ORTHODOX CHURCHES. THESE ARE CHURCHES THAT HAVE THE VALID PRIESTHOOD, VALID BISHOPS, SEVEN VALID SACRAMENTS. YOU KNOW, WE RECOGNIZE THAT FULLY AND KNOW THAT THEY ARE VALID IN THOSE THINGS. BUT THE ISSUE OF THE PAPACY IS ONE OF THE CONCERNS. AND HE EMPHASIZED THAT THE POPE IS A SERVANT OF THE DEPOSIT OF FAITH. NOT ITS MASTER. HE'S NOT IN CONTROL OF THE BIBLE. HE'S A SERVANT OF THE BIBLE. HE'S NOT IN CONTROL OF APOSTOLIC TRADITION, HE'S A SERVANT OF THE TRADITION. >> A CARETAKER. >> Fr. Pacwa: LIKE AN UMPIRE. AN UMPIRE DOES NOT MAKE UP THE RULE BOOKS FOR BASEBALL. HE HAS TO FOLLOW IT. AND INTERPRET SPECIFIC EVENTS IN THAT LIGHT. NOW, HERE'S A QUESTION THAT I THINK WOULD BE WORTH TAKING A LOOK AT. IF A POPE, YOU KNOW, SAYS SOMETHING HERETICAL, WHAT CAN HAPPEN TO HIM? >> HE CAN BE CONDEMNED BY THE COUNCIL AS BEING A HER TECH. WE HAVE A POPE WHO DID THAT. HE DIDN'T TEACH ANYTHING OFFICIALLY WRONG BUT IN PRIVATE CORRESPONDENCE. >> Fr. Pacwa: A LETTER. >> RIGHT. A PRIVATE CORRESPONDENCE, A LETTER, IT WAS A HERESY, A WRONG CONCEPTION OF CHRIST AND THE TWO NATURES. >> AND HE WAS DEALING WITH A BIT OF THEOLOGY THAT WAS TOO REFINED FOR HIM. HE DIDN'T HAVE THE BACKGROUND. >> JUST BECAUSE THE POPE IS A POPE DOESN'T MEAN HE'S A GENIUS. >> Fr. Pacwa: THAT'S RIGHT. AND THERE WAS A HERESY CALLED MONO THELLISM AND THAT CHRIST ONLY HAD A DIVINE WILL AND NOT A HUMAN WILL. AND HE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THAT. THAT WAS ONE OF HIS PROBLEMS. HE DID NOT UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE AND HE MADE A MISTAKE, WAS INCORRECT. >> AND HE DIDN'T SIT IN THE CHAIR AND SAID EVERYBODY HAS TO BELIEVE THIS. IT WAS JUST IN PRIVATE CORRESPONDENCE. AND BECAUSE OF THAT LATER ON, HE WAS DECLARED TO BE A HERETIC. AND YET, HE HAD STILL BEEN AN INFALLIBLE POPE IN THE WAY THAT INFALLIBILITY APPLIES. >> Fr. Pacwa: NOW, WE HAVE THIS BOOK, IT'S "THE PAPACY, WHAT THE POPE DOES AND WHY IT MATTERS" BY STEVE RAY AT ewtnRC.com. ITEM 2169. LOVE FOR YOU TO GET THAT. AND THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE WITH US. NOW, I WANT TO GIVE YOU ALL A BLESSING. MAY ALMIGHTY GOD BLESS YOU, KEEP YOU, AND CAUSE HIS FACE TO SHINE UPON YOU AND LEAD YOU IN ALL OF YOUR WAYS BY HIS PEACE. GOD BLESS YOU IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT. AMEN. YOU KNOW, WE CAN HAVE STEVE RAY HERE AND ALL OF OUR OTHER GUESTS WHO DO PROGRAMS ONLY BECAUSE THIS NETWORK IS BROUGHT TO YOU. MOTHER ANGELICA FELT INSPIRED BY OUR LORD TO NOT SELL ADVERTISING OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT BUT TO LET YOU BRING THIS NETWORK TO YOU. SO, ESPECIALLY IN THESE SUMMER MONTHS, WHEN A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE ON VACATION, WE ASK YOU AND WE REMIND YOU, KEEP US IN BETWEEN YOUR GAS BILL, ELECTRIC BILL AND CABLE BILL. OUR BILL COLLECTORS DO NOT TAKE A VACATION. SO, PLEASE, HELP US OUT. GOD BLESS YOU AND THANK YOU. [APPLAUSE] [MUSIC]
