Europe on the Edge

thank you very much Hannah thanks to all of you for coming out and our discussion tonight is on Europe on the edge and I must hasten to say that when the notion of this debate was put together many of the events that now form the context for our conversation had obviously not happened and one of those is the calling of a general election which was called and summoned to be the brexit election and some of you may have been struck by the absence of discussion of Europe and breaks it in this election and so not for the first time intelligence squared aims to deliver what the politicians and others will not which is a candid conversation about Europe which has been missing from this campaign but obviously the other part of context are the attacks in London on Saturday night and the attacks two weeks before in Manchester and they will inevitably I think framed some part of our conversation and of course just by all of you being here and mr. BAE going ahead is I think a sign that of art collective determination to defy those who would stop us having these conversations and instead to keep on so and that's I'm going to say more about the context as we get into it but and I want next to really just having said something about the moment we're in to say a few words about each of the people because each of them do come to these topics with a particular expertise despite Michael Gove saying we've had enough of experts we can never get enough of experts here and so we have assembled here five people all with a unique vantage point and tremendous expertise on our topics that you know and there are different ones that might lead to Europe being on the edge so let me introduce them more or less in physical order professor of economics at Oxford and development expert who is widely acknowledged as an expert in the field and acclaim for his new book refuge he recently turned his attention as that title suggests to the subject of mass migration examining its effect on both the societies that receive migrants and on the countries those migrants leave behind a warm welcome please for professor Paul Collier [Applause] our next speaker is an award-winning novelist and is the most widely read female writer in her native Turkey she's a prominent advocate for minority rights and free speech there and elsewhere you may have read her nonfiction worker essays in the Financial Times The New York Times The New Yorker and The Guardian welcome please for Elise shut up thank you our next speaker on my immediate right is born in was born in Italy and is now the professor of finance at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business he writes frequently on populism which is obviously I think going to be one of our themes tonight immigration and the state of the eurozone economy he recently launched a heated debate in the Italian media about the costs and the benefits of the euro for his native Italy he is Luigi Zingales and turning to our speakers who have hot-footed it from the continent to be here born in Belgium that a journalist who became editor-in-chief of the French weekly newsmagazine L'Express she now presents a current affairs programme on Frances equivalent of BBC four she is christinauk rent [Applause] and completing our panel known to many of you I'm sure he is a regular writer and columnist for both The Spectator and standpoint magazine writes frequently so all kinds of other publications including the Sunday Times here in The Wall Street Journal in the United States his current and new book is the strange death of Europe immigration identity and Islam which has now I think this week reached the number-one spot in the Sunday Times bestsellers list he is Douglas Murray so that is our panel and we are talking as I said about Europe on the edge that's the subject before us and I'm guessing that you could carry or hold that thought in your mind applying to many things you could be thinking of the terror attacks that we've experienced in Britain in these last few weeks but our neighbors on the continent have been experiencing in recent months - you could be thinking about the economy you could be thinking about the phenomenon of mass migration so I'm going to ask each of our contributors here to set out their stool and tell us really in just a minute also what it is that is making them anxious and what - what are they worried about and what makes them feel that Europe is on the edge and why don't I start with you Christina Craig well I'm actually worried that so many brilliant minds still dwell in to gloom and doom at a time where it seems to me Europe is in a much better shape than it was a few months ago there is that fatal triangle mr. trumpet in a toga they compel us to really do our things ourselves there's also a better economic cycle in the eurozone and last but not least the populist wave seems to have been stopped somehow certainly in Holland and certainly in France where Emanuel McCoy I think will reverberate and stimulate a much more positive approach to European issues and assembly elections coming up in France this we have a Don June 11 and June 80 so it's not all about us when it comes to elections there are other elections going on - Thank You Christine why don't we hear from you Paul Collier on what's on your mind in terms of what makes you worried about Europe on the edge when I see Europe as a political project primarily a little project by the Germans French which some years ago made it catastrophic mistake of using economic instruments as political symbols and I think I was catastrophic because it produced powerful economic diversions and that potentially gives an incentive for some countries to leave em and I think the Germans have already made it pretty clear that their strategy for stopping any exit is to make British exit as painful as possible so actually I'm fearful for the implications of that strategy for us so in order to discourage other people from leaving and spreading the contagion there will be a sort of this is the punishment beatings model yeah in which Britain gets cake face punishment its reparations are back interesting you've already broken the unspoken rule of all these discussions which is never to mention the war you've done it within four or so minutes but somebody was going to do let's hear from you next Luigi Zingales about what do you think what do you have on your mind what's worrying you so I'm worried that Europe which was a in its origin a fantastic project to bring prosperity and harmony in Europe exactly turning into a prison where people start to build resentments and hate each other more in 20 years ago the Greeks were not calling the German Nazi and the Germans were not calling the Greeks lazy and today this is an outcome of a ill-conceived economic project that as Paul said was conceived by politicians for politicians means use economic means in the wrong direction and unfold early has been sold and supported by a lot of economies but so far with pretty negative consequences I don't see an end inside and I'm sorry I don't think that a thermicon as a magic one to fix it this I mentioned at the start you've kicked off this debate about the euro is it you okay argument that Italy itself should come out of the Europe I think that is a bit like Hotel California you can check out but never leave I think that it's a design to destroy a country if it leaves so it's impossible to leave at least unilaterally but some nations and mine is one suffers tremendously any that that's the that's a dilemma and when you force people into a cage you know you have range and that's what is happening so we've had to very pessimistic views from this time we had an optimistic view from Christine early for you on this what's worrying you if anything about you I don't think you should expect an optimistic view from a Turkish writer we are so so depressed but honestly coming from a country like Turkey where diversity cosmopolitanism has been lost and the cost of that loss has been tremendous I am worried about many things in Europe and across the world I think what has happened in Turkey could happen anywhere it could even happen here and while it's true that populism populist pride seem to have slows they have not disappeared they are there and we need to talk about them and to me it's very interesting to see when populist movements are in opposition they have an impact beyond their size so much so that they can change the rhetoric of mainstream politics and politicians we have seen an example of this in the Netherlands for instance yes here two others did not win the elections but thanks to his presence and his base mainstream politicians in the Netherlands started to employ a much more nationalistic jingoistic language during their elections now when populist come to power this is when they are in a position they have an impact beyond their size when they come to power these three has shown us that they benefit enormous ly from controlling the state of virata's the main narrative but also the media and thirdly I think we need to be careful because no matter how isolationist and nationalistic they might sound they are connected they are interrelated we all are so today's populist movements encourage each other so yes trump's existence also encourages alderaan and vice-versa and therefore I think we need to understand that we're all in this together we have things to worry about to feel hopeful about as well but the danger of nationalism tribalism has not disappeared and all around the world we are being told that we all belong in our tribes and they're telling us that if we go back to our tribes we will be safer if we're surrounded by things and that's an illusion thank you I want to come back to populism straight after but why don't we hear from you dougies you've written a whole book about the death and strange death of Europe you obviously believe Europe is not just on the edge but has gone over the edge just tell us in a very distilled form if you can what's on your mind sure I don't make any apologies for being gloomy I think that if the facts that gloomy you should be gloomy and I think a huge amount of damage has been done historically and is still being done today by optimists but we might get on to that my view is that I mean that our continent is in the business of bullets dodging these days and every time a bullets sort of whizzes past its head we think oh well it hasn't hit so it will be fine for another day and I think that isn't true but I think that the real problems of far deeper than the issues that any one election throws up to these days or any one challenger can throw up my books about what I see as being the two twin challenges that have come simultaneously are the first is the mass movement of people's into Europe and the second is that this should come at the same time that Europeans have lost the sense of what we are or what we meant to be or whether we're allowed to be or whether we are just the place where anyone in the world who wants to call our continent home can call it home and I think this is a massive historical issue that far beyond at the moment the grasp of any politicians in our country to deal with but it'll it'll be the one that gals and as I think throughout our lives and instead of Europe having a philosophy in which which says if you're here then you're European and you can call yourself and think of yourself of being at home what do you think should be the approach instead well it would start by recognizing that it isn't the case that anyone in the world who walks into Europe immediately becomes a European our historical reasons for getting to some of the ideas we have about separation of church and state about our wounded asked you towards religion our attitudes towards politics in my view are highly unlikely to just be picked up and arrived at exactly the same moment as we're at by millions of people coming into our continent and I think that all of our political leaders massively underestimated this and it may well be impossible to reverse that we're also going to have to come back to that and you're going to want to make a defense of Chris Christine you're going to make one to want to make a defensive optimism yes I think I'm going to see rather lonely no not necessarily I'm sure there's also optimist out there let's let's just pick up this thing about populism first because you suggested that in a way the moment had passed the type that peak had been reached because micron 1 in so lepen but I thought before we get into you mentioned populism to a leaf why don't we just say how we're defining it first of all just you know in a very short just away what do you mean when you say popular well that's the challenge isn't it because it's so close to democracy and we're not talking about a problem that originates from outside democracy but comes from within and and shows us the fragility of democracy in other words how they deal with movements that come to power using the means of democracy and once they consolidate their power use that position in order to suppress all voices of dissent one by one the other one would be a classic a yeah so teach the Turkish case is quite interesting and it really holds the important examples for Democrats and in my opinion progressives liberals all around the world populism needs dualities I think that is one of the keys there always has to be on us and there needs to be of them the description of them can change from time to time but that duality is essential it also tells us that there's a real people pure people versus the corrupt elite and it presents itself as if it has nothing to do with the establishment as if it has been assumed from another planet nothing can convince me that Trump is not part of the financial establishment or morena fan herself is not part of the political elite of course we can be critical of the elites mistakes but let us not make the mistake of thinking that these populist demagogues are themselves not part of daily excellent thank you so that's an understanding what popular populism is Paul Collier what what role has migration and the backlash against migration played in fueling these populist movements visible actually in Britain with you kid but in France with the pen and hollands and filters there's all kinds of examples well how much is this about immigration I think um and most in the audience won't like this but I think what was actually happened is is is is not particularly something to the let's focus on the English working class and the English working class now is more or less where it's always being I think what walked is the English middle class and which is decided that it doesn't really want to be English it's walk away from a shared identity with ordinary people and I think this is particularly pronounced in London I'm afraid I grew up in Sheffield right with a proper place and and I grew up in an environment that I was surrounded by Scots left right across the road all Scots and it never occurred to any of us that we were other than the same identity they were Scottish lollies English but we're all British which is fourth together God have done it again and and because of that there was a strong willingness to the fortunate to redistribute to the less fortunate we were shared identity and I think that that has gradually corroded now I think the where does immigration fail to this it's a bit marginal it's something that the upper middle class gets very excited about because it can accuse ordinary people of being racist right but the here's here's an uncomfortable piece of statistical evidence right across Europe the higher the proportion of immigrants in the population the lower is the willingness of those above median income to make tax transfers to people below median income that's across Europe there's also an experimental behavioral evidence which which explains why right is I can't go into it but and what that means is people below median income ordinary people have a perfectly rational reason to fear that immigration will sort of weaken this sense of shared bonds and the middle class will just run off go into it same thing and so sort of distribution of redistribution of wealth and and the base the basic sort of fundament fundamentals of social democracy rest in your view on there being a degree of homogeneity in a society but once it's too diverse this is an argument that you and has others that may want attitude of earth in the moat the willingness to share becomes it has to be a shared identity that doesn't mean I'm a genius ethnic identity or anything like that it just means a sense of buying into we are all the only basis viable basis for shared identity you can't buy in on a set of values because our values in a in a democratic open society our values are all over the place right the one thing you can all agree on is is location we're all British we all live in the place and so you need that to become an important salient feature of identity so you will have heard arguments like that in farms as well the French equivalent arguments but now the country has changed it's so diverse that the willingness to treat each other as neighbors is less perhaps and this is part of what's been driving I will put it slightly different clear from Paul without of course denying his argument but it's pretty obvious that all over the continent the middle class has been struck by two phenomenons one is globalization and the other is the the technological revolution which means that people get to be more and more individualistic and they approach to their political institutions very political elites media elites business business elites they become very different but I think that this idea of a loss of identity is quite this thing from actual migrations they've been migrations in Europe throughout our history dating back centuries it's more the refugee crisis which has helped populist throughout Europe to say oh we're losing our identity and of course in places where they have never seen one single immigrant or one single refugee in France we saw that we have you know not in the been saying oh you know where has France gone but at the street yeah well she did well in areas where they were not refugees but that that's been the case you know throughout Europe you don't need to have foreigners to to be exact fabric there's a case in Slovakia in a place run actually by a neo-nazi of an Erasmus student who was just stabbed because he happens to be black so I think this notion of identity has indeed many more ingredients to it than just the refugee crisis and I think there's always that ambiguity between the refugee crisis on one hand and the migration is you on the Eldar police yes the issue of identity with the emphasis on the singularity of it I think it's so crucial in in all populist movements of course we are talking about very different examples you can't we have populism sin well for Sweden but also we have focusing in crisis-ridden Greece there are differences but this is one of the common areas populism doesn't like plurality multiplicity and at the end of the day all populist movements expect us to clarify a single monolithic identity are you a Muslim being Muslim according to my definition of Islam are you a Dutch you can only be done she can't book little which is completely against our nature because as human beings who are made of water we have multiple multiple belongings so that that is a repetitive you know example that we see from from country to they want to another Douglas I want to hear what you say to Christine's point about there's always been waves of immigration it's just part of European history why now is it's making you big fear that actually Europe itself may be even on the verge of its own death because of the this change that you discern in your book and in what you've been writing first of all and the point that Christine makes does not prove the cases cause does it because a lot of the areas where people don't like the diversity shall we say is because they've had enough of the diversity it's not because they've never tried it they've tried it and don't like it and they go to areas where they can not have more of it for and down their throat and that's one of the big issues isn't that everyone who's afforded as it were endless diversity as a definition of us will always come to is is there a moment when there is such a thing as too much and I think that the people can sense that and certainly sense it far better than any political or other class this word by the way populism and populist I don't buy it myself I don't use it I think populist is a term that some people use for things they don't like it it's simply a really good and easy way I mean let me give you an example Monsieur macron ran without a party if a tree was formed his own movement was a one-man show very charismatic and so on he's not described as a populist why when Hillary Clinton does the US and them with Wall Street as she did in her campaign boasting that she was the only candidate so tough on Wall Street that they actually were fighting against her who describes Hillary Clinton as a populist if Hillary Clinton had won the election would it have been a populist win if remain had one would any of one have said this is a populist saying no it's un frightening it's a bottling is half I mean supporters know I mean she's the head of the conservative here a definition you heard a definition from a leaf earlier which was when it picked itself again to the elite it says we're the real people real thing well people against a foreigner leaf or a distance a lead and particularly I'm just giving you a leafs definition if it uses the techniques of democracy to in some way once it has power to either suppress or just restrain democracy and democratic norms first of all the idea of us and then is a derogatory way of describing what their liberal Dutch novelist paul shaffer described when he said in order to make this work we're going to need a we we need a we we need a first person plural to describe ourselves as a society and that is just another way of saying oh you're just doing us and then what you do need and us you do need an us and and as I say I return to what if it is the case I leave a point that one of the few definitions or the bits of a definition I would I could find agreement with is this thing of as they were overstating the power of elites and overstating your own you know nascent ability to connect with with the people and so on well five it's sometimes you know people aren't on to nothing if you were to describe a sort of incredibly disjointed unelected you know far-far high above the people and unaccountable to them saying you know what could you do better than come up with the European Commission is it always popular is it is it always populous to point that out I would say no so sometimes people are onto something but as I said this is I think this is just another way of saying scare quotes around these people we we would like to call them racist but we're not sure it will work anymore and winner versus so we'll call them populist lots of people want to come in thank you both of you want to come in I just want to ask you Luigi about your take on that is because what has whether or not you accept the definition of either as there are two debaters on this point a lot of people debate quest discuss what is driving populism is it cultural anxiety broadly defined meaning the questions of identity and who is asked and perhaps race or is it just more simply economic hardship and pain Christine mentioned globalization other people have talked about automation you know people who are left behind economically that's why they are turning to so-called we make that Douglass's war is so-called populism so two things first of all in the I like the definition but there's a part missing is the other side the other side of populist is elitist and I think that the two are very symbiotic because you can have populist only when there is elite that is elitist and the other is justify being elegance because they are populist and vice versa and I think that there's not enough discussion these days or groups that are elite and as contact tower ordinary people when illrick law calls deplorable the people who vote for Trump she's not an elitist when throughout Europe they say oh you have to redo the referendum in England because the outcome is not the right one and we keep going until we get the right outcome or even sort of a debate whether you should a universal suffrage because the people don't understand because we're smart and understand and they don't I think that's all it is and I think this eldest is very pervasive I don't know enough about the UK but I can tell you in the United States and in Italy is very pervasive and I think that's part of the problem and pilot Rob is really is to separate from the rest of the people in a sense social mobility even the United States has gone down tremendously and you end up interacting only with some kind of people in the shocking thing how many friends do you have in the States water for Trump is very rare to find that and gee they were not 50% it was only 48 but they're 48 percent of the population where are they that then shows how separate from the rest of the people we live and our elytis we are good so partly you can't have populism without elitism where are you on this question of whether or not that populist move has Ria's peaked because in in France they just elected in huge numbers a very elitist figure in the form of Emmanuel macron there was no anti a leaders and there they were quite happy to embrace him as the new president does it mean the feeling you're describing has passed I don't think so I am on the side of people think that the primary cause is economical and so I think that this is not going away anytime soon I would be more interested in studying whether France is an exception maybe because they're more a middle class and so that that's a reason why they did not fall so much into that as other places or so they would not have left behind as left behind and also outraged but considering a victory the fact that a fascist leader got 35% of the vote sorry if those are the victories I don't look forward to defeat yes and genu well I know you want to get on a poll is in waiting for more than le video this with Mike on I mean he faced a Marxist a fascist and a crook and just leap and he has a breakthrough by 3% and then look at our first round yeah yeah that's and then of course in case of hecka clashes because he went that is not a resounding victory I'm sorry it's not right and he donkey could have won against that and and the is not want to be reduce badly need to be rude about donkeys and well the where Leo killed your next point yeah now the what I wanted to say was that incidentally I entirely agree that the implication of this is the elites have walked off it's not the populist have done something weird the elites of all comes now there are I want to make a distinction two sorts of nationalism there's the nationalism that I grew up with in Sheffield we were all British why not because of any ethnicity or something we all lived in the same country and we were proud of that the nationalism that the populist generate is a very different animal they're not actually saying we're all a country they're saying we're the country and you're not and that's a very different thing that there's an inclusive nationalism there I grew up with and there's an exclusive claiming of a national label by one group or another and that we've got to oppose that the root of fascism but the idea that to oppose fascism we have to just say oh we're all global citizens is nothing else is crazy we need shared identity in order to be generous and be cooperative very helpful so exclusive nationalism is the nationalism you're against I would think you mean marine lepen would be an example of that in Britain would you say you kit expresses that exclusive or not yes yeah you were yes okay it's clarified and Christine Christine wants to come back and then we must affirm Olivia well after this phrase of Britishness all I can try and say that France has gone through an extraordinary presidential campaign where indeed the diversity of opinions the violence in the political climate and indeed the way citizens have engaged and have indeed given not to a donkey I'm sorry but to a young man who was extremely visionary in the way he took advantage of these extraordinary circumstances the turnout was very high he won by a very wide margin the first round and wider margin the second round so I think all these ironical comments about the fact that anybody including a donkey might have won is out of place we have a presidential system with a three-round election and indeed we will see again in June for the parliamentary elections if that young man who ran without the political party has been able to build a political button which is it I think a very good omen to the capacity of our European democracies not to be as tired as they are supposed to be and indeed to be able to renew their elites their political age and indeed again rejuvenate our citizen just respond to be necessarily positive the region just respond to Luigi's point though which is yes good in my country very well we all know that but it's not that encouraging that a fascist his word like marine lepen took whole as much as she did that is actually trouble yes indeed that's precisely because of what Paul said that all these there was an extreme left an extreme right and conservatives candidate who turned out to be if not a crook at least to be how could I put it a very callous about public money but this interposer project about marketing at one point I don't agree Holland is a typical case in point that Holland is a very prosperous country and yet it still has a far right so it's not always economic reasons which account for quote-unquote populations yeah thank you and that's to well and some of the more affluent parts of the United States voted for Trump as well so we can come back to that let le if you be wanting to get in I also want to make sure that you know that we are going to talk about terrorism as an issue for Europe and I don't want to hear you le a new Douglas and then we're going to go on to terrorism I mean first the emphasis on shared values I think it's incredibly important for many of my British friends friends the the entire EU debate was a primarily financial economic debate for us those of us to come from the periphery of Europe for us it's mainly a debate on shared values and the danger of losing those shared values and the importance of having a supranational umbrella that brings people from different backgrounds around shared values to me is very important I do not think that nationalism of any kind can be inclusive when we have to make a difference between maybe nationalism and patriotism it is perfectly okay understandable and beautiful for us to have emotional attachments to the cultures lands families where we come from but nationalism as an ideology is a very dangerous thing and again people coming from Turkey the Middle East the Balkans we have seen the dangers of all of that with regards to populism with regards to populism populist are not the reason why we are in this mess they are there because there has been a mess in the first place so it is the outcome of democracy in trouble it is the outcome of a crisis we do have a crisis that we need to talk about and I do not think that that crisis can solely be understood by looking at economic or financial inequality by no means I'm not belittling under estimating the importance of economic gaps but we need to talk about other things as well particularly emotions which has been so underestimated in mainstream political theory but I do believe that this is the age of anxiety and anger it is perfectly understandable for people to worry whether their children are going to find the job you know it's perfectly understandable that the people are worried that yes there will be too many refugees and I plan to be worried about terrorism if we do not allow them to speak their anxiety to talk about it if we don't have open spaces and judge them on the basis of their emotions I think we will be pushing them towards the far-right it's to me it's very interesting to see let's go back a few years we have the Arab Spring we have the financial crisis we have the euro crisis break the Trump many times including the polls the experts got things wrong we need to talk about these things how is it possible but where we are right now is many populist demagogues and I think we need to use this word they are saying to the people you know what these people they elite they're always getting it wrong and you are the pure people you just need to trust your gods your instincts you don't need these intellectuals here so the denigration of the intellect to me is a very dangerous trend one more thing I want to add I would let lots of time because that's what we must remove it off you will have all done let I want to make the transition to talk about terrorism because it's obviously in our minds in this city this now and we you know then I want to open it up so I want to hear you're different you know we've talked about populism and what might be driving that and what might define it but Douglas I know you wanted to get on the other thing but if you can let's pivot to this issue and everyone is asking was the game the same question which is what is causing this and is this something that is visit merely visited upon Europe or is this something that on some level has been caused by decisions Europe and Europeans have taken well firstly let me just say that the there is a narrative we've heard a little bit of it so far that the public's of Europe are being led astray by talented demagogues it's possible as well that the public's of Europe have seen a political class fail to get a grasp of very major things or even talk about them and the public have noticed fact and that it's not that there's a meta-narrative that's going around they were just facts there are things that we can see with our eyes there are things that clear to us which politicians dint tread on and I've had this experience throughout throughout my life I never forget the time many years ago I think when France first banned the headscarf I've told this story before the Labour MP Annan in a studio with me discussing that the rights and wrongs of this and spent the whole time with me an Iranian friend of mine was also there explaining why we were fascist and Islamophobic and so on for defending the French Republic's verdict on the headscarf and we came out in this Labour MP patted me on the back and said never forget Douglas we're all with you and I said well what was that all about on air you know which was a more pertinent moment and he said look I've got a large Muslim constituency and I can't do anything in this area and that's that's what you hear all the time in private and the politicians when I say this to them their eyes go huge they dent the tread onto this but there's a very straightforward fact I'm afraid on this terrorism thing this has to be confronted extremism and violence can come from absolutely any community pretty much an even Buddhists you know when riled up in certain parts of the world it can become violent the Quakers I think we can't go for but but but pretty much everything he said was I accept that this is not a something to be picked up on but Islamic extremism only comes from the Islamic religion and from followers of it and that is an imported problem for Europe that's that's a problem that we brought in and we're now facing and none of our politicians by the way I'm not there's no great conspiracy about this nobody expected it if you just said to a politician in the 1990s in the earlier years of the 2000s Europe is going to be wracked by blasphemy debates it said what are you talking about when did the Spanish Inquisition return and then we all became used to it that there were certain things you couldn't do that were actually blasphemy in a country like this and were punishable by effectively by death by a death sentence we all accepted that and now we're told we have to accept the terrorism well maybe we do have to accept the terrorism as part of our life but the public's have a right to be looking at the politicians and saying look this is a problem you brought in it's not only it's not only to be talked about it's not only to be talked about as a problem but unless we're willing to do that bit of identifying to my mind the gap between what the public can see and what the public know and what the political class is even willing to whisper will continue to grow and that's the gap where you have to worry so who wants to take on what Douglas is that Chris Christine you come back on it I would like to add another comment I'm not disputing that this this time around I won't hear from somebody who does very so it's interesting that in France we've had this very critical approach of the British view about multiculturalism community RISM which in our vocabulary are really bad words and there has been a great deal of French self delusion about the idea that our secular culture would actually integrate rather than assimilate and that indeed our second or third generation of immigrants coming from former colonies which is also the case I believe in this country would naturally believe that aesthetics over central dialects was their ancestors and that our education system would transfer them it has worked to a point especially with girls but also than with young men but we we have discovered and indeed as we all know France has been struck by terrorism homegrown terrorism French citizens most of the time as indeed British citizens in this case and so it shows that for two or three generations not only our politicians but our societies have not really measured the difficulty of giving a proper identity to these people because it's also a sign of an identity crisis turning to that kind of ideology it's not even religion it's an ideology and that shows that it is indeed a dimension we no one has taken into account not only our politicians that we're going to come back I wanted somebody to push back on the basic case Douglas made right at the beginning or just a moment ago rather that somehow this is a problem that is it brought into Europe by I presume those Uggs means the immigration of most in big numbers there's there's no doubt that when you look at the Muslim world in general there are lots of problems we have enormous problems with regards to women's rights LGBT rights freedom of speech human rights and we got lots of things that we should be criticizing and we are criticizing but it would also be a very big mistake to think that the Muslim world is a monolithic hold and that all Muslims are similar and they have a similar worldview in fact they are not there are enormous differences there always were historically and today as well depending on whom you talk to which country what time you are focusing on the differences are amazing my worry is extremists in one place are creating more extremists elsewhere whether we like it or not we're all far too globalized to think that by closing our doors and surrounding ourselves by walls we will be safe and away and removed from all these problems we want where all of all of our seniors together it is a massive terrorism is a big international global problem and it can only be solved through global solidarity with regards to the bikini ban in France I sincerely believe it was very very wrong it was a big mistake I think we should be criticizing faith-based schools we should be criticizing extremists preachers we should definitely monitor what people are saying in the mosques but for God's sake chasing women who are just wearing their bikinis in there and the beach that is not the way forward but it's even more dangerous because what's happening is and this is not what what we perhaps are not aware of much those pictures do remember the picture of one lady wearing a bikini in France and three French policemen by her unfortunately that very photograph has been circulated in Turkey in Jordan in Egypt with awful caption saying you see this is what their will say our women all staged here the Guinea crew both of our leaders all things because they danger in the Nan's address the same way with a bikini night and you allow them to dress like that why do you go after crazy tonight 8:00 tonight with a lot written what did you make it okay and if I cut you off people sorry I come from a country because Turkey and France have lots of similarities they lace today we have borrowed directly from France not the anglo-saxon secularism and Turkey has applied the headscarf bomb Iran has applied the headscarf man it didn't work it created massive problems but yes we all share the same aims with regards to how do we prevent extremism how do we prevent terrorism but let's also find more progressive ways forward presidential wing women or propellant rockets butter first of all sorry Alice but the Burkina ban is a massive diversion a massive diversion it was a big mistake for the French state when that happened I agree but this is not the biggest issue the biggest issue is it just up the road again a few days ago three men with machete went through London Street hacking at people saying this is for Allah okay that child problem and this is always the way with it we always have diversions and some of these they're versions we bring upon ourselves but let me just get back to the main point we have had historically massive issues in Europe nobody who knows anything about our history wouldn't pretend that but this is a civil war within a religion which was not our war and it has become our war it has become our war and Ellis you are right and wrong you are totally wrong to say that there isn't some agreement on this if you are a Muslim and you follow Islam you believe that the Koran came from God and you believe that what is in it is at least very hard to run against and so now we have a situation in in a country like this one where actually the majority of British Muslims want being gay like I am to be made illegal now okay so we had a nice liberal agreement in recent decades over being gay and now you import a community which actually thinks not just that they're not on board with gay marriage but they think it should be bade a lock up a bull offense where does that come from it comes from Islam okay and where is it where does the where do all these make up they come to me and I'm sorry but it is a much worse problem than we think okay one poll last year showed the 50 percent of British Muslims would not go to the police if they knew somebody involved in Isis like group was around them another poll showed two-thirds of British wasn't saying they would not go to the police if they knew somebody involved in extremist activity what the hell are we doing what the hell are we doing in ignoring that okay Duggars heavy I know I know Ellie hi I just know I will I'm going to let you come back I would just want to press covers on the question because I want to know if we accept what you said and so obviously a lot of people in this room do and I think quite a lot don't I want to know what you do with this sentiment because you have just described a difference with not just the people who went on a murderous rampage in Borough Market but with Britain's entire Muslim community 2 or 3 million people so what are you actually practically saying but saying that this is a faith that didn't exist here before therefore a problem that didn't exist at all are you suggesting these 2 or 3 million British citizens somehow have to now leave the canal of course not of course so what are you suggesting the first thing is you admit this issue and you slow down or stop the flow the obvious thing if you've got a problem admit to it and flow the flow ok the second thing is obviously you try to work on the people you have here obviously you can't work on me well you hope that over many many generations things will change of course the problem we all have is a situation like the case of salman a baby this country gave his parents asylum they fled from Libya we gave his parents asylum or now we're working out what his parents actually believed but actually then two weeks ago their son goes into a Manchester Arena and blows up 22 people one for every year of life this country gave him so we could be in a situation where we're saying okay the first generation are fine but we've no idea what their chills are going to do and I would very quickly make this point really if you want to see the depth of this problem and a possible solution see who the most vilified people in the Muslim community in this country they are the Reformers every single case it's the reformer okay and one one of the one of the one of the London Bridge attackers one of the London Bridge attackers last year attacked an imam who is a friend of mine in London okay everybody knows this the Reformers won the bond on the on the edge of this and that this is the point okay the Reformers may lose and that used to be a big tragedy for the Islamic world and now it's a tragedy for Britain okay and he wants to come in and we're going to question click listen to me and then we must say from our gift I think it's really unfair I mean what what makes us think that all of us all of us we are incredibly worried about what's happening and I believe all of us want to find a solution forward it's only how we're going to find a solution that's what we are debating I never said that you know this was this was not an essential thing I moved to England and maybe you know when you are an outsider when you are a late comer you appreciate it even more you love it even more so that's a different thing but what I'm trying to say is we as we're so used to having these debates but on both sides of the Atlantic when you bring one speaker who criticizes Islam and then another speaker who defend Islam and they keep fighting and wailing I've never liked that I never wanted to be part of that I'm not even a believer myself you know but I'm someone who's interested in in in dialog in peace in faith and I do note that the way forward is not by generalizing communities the biggest problem we have today is how do we communicate with people who are not necessarily in this room how do we find the same language how do we reach out to girls boys who do yes some of them come from conservative families and yes indeed we must stop these fanatics extremists but if in doing so we generalize all Muslims I'm very worried that we're adding fuel to the fire and generalizing a very specific thing let's call today that's call today let's begin to hear some questions and reactions from all of you I'm hoping there are people with microphones and there's one over there so keep your hand up there keep it up to the lady they can go and your guest to the one there that's good let's get a third one lined up if you Lindy and read the t-shirt there I'm hoping she's for the language is walking across purposefully okay they're not they're good we'll begin over here my question is and what is the role of Technology and the internet with all of this because it seems there is a parallel timeframe for the last 10 15 years with social media and multimedia coming into the forefront of everybody's lives and correlating with the rise of terrorism and all of these questions thank you and the question here yeah and there's clearly a threat of people going to Zaire and then coming back and where do you stand on what should happen there thank you very specific one and then we'll hear from you there yeah yeah hello I'm a two-fold question one is about identity I think like I'm from Germany and coming to an abort country I learned a lot about my own identity if you have nothing to compare your own identity with how do you really know your own identity and I want to make a second point in Germany over 800,000 refugees came we didn't know who those people are people welcomed them people really really engaged into the community helped and they still do there's a small royalty which is really loud and it's complaining about them and there's a huge majority would really help and engages the closure which is to integrate them so what do you think about that when you talk about those huge flows of immigrants into England because I can't see them don't put the microphone back you just said I want to ask you a question and all those million refugees that Germany very famously welcomed if heaven forbid but if one of them even was later involved in an act of terrorism in the in I know I just wanted because we have the case obviously that has happened but I'm just interested in because of what Douglass said about the case of somebody Salman the baby who was granted asylum in this country and then went on to kill does that change your view of the million who have been welcomed I don't think so because all the hundreds of thousands of troops came fifty years ago and nothing really much happened so if there's one it's one person out of 1 million ok let's say the thank you for that let's see if the question is fair and I think you've got a microphone up there oh no you haven't no you have okay and that's plenty - oh you've got on it ok we'll hear one more and then we're going to bring it back here got a question hello got a question for Douglas you talked about wanting to to stop the flow Douglas do you support a religious test for immigrants coming to Europe or Great Britain okay thank you why don't we start first of all with this point about the technology and the internet I'm going to look to you to this Luigi because it's obviously paid a big part in driving populism I would've thought because of automation and putting people out of work but do you think it's played and what role is it played in the spread of terror I think that technology is always used by criminals to become sort of a more sophisticated than the police has to catch up I think that in I don't think that the internet Percy is any different than a lot of Technology that there have been introduced and I think that we need to pay some costs in order to add the police monitor the situation and trying to catch them early on I think that a lot of people got upset for the NSA spying cetera but that some monitoring is necessary for checking so for example to resumes is that the encryption that you have with some messaging services what fact for example has to end because it enables terrorists to talk to each other without any possibility of monitoring the conversation where would you be on something like that I'm not an expert on the details but I think that it is a bit dangerous to guarantee completely encryption another dimension is this is for terrorists but also for other criminals in Italy we we have fewer terrorists but a lot of mafia is not any better yeah people who call a you write your book refuge you heard the testimony of somebody from Germany there who the most famous sort of refugee movement of recent years a million arriving there what does it do to your attitude but also to public attitudes about refugees if even one out of a million then goes on to kill and maim as we saw in Manchester as is it making our whole attitude to to refuge change I think and I think this German decision of the moment was was truly unfortunate because what it's done is turn people around across Europe including Germany instead of looking at refugees and feeling compassion a look at refugees and feel fear that's a disaster and of course rapidly became completely unpopular in Germany which is why Chancellor Merkel inmigrants slammed the door that within within months within months right and not only slammed the door but then did a deal with your great leader and to ship them back so this is not noble but the real reason why it was really unfortunate apart from this business of turning the biggest asset of refugees the compassion we should feel for them in to interfere the biggest problem is that it was a really foolish thing to do this is ten million displaced Syrians and most of them have fed into the neighboring countries Turkey Jordan I've been working with the Jordanian government last three years and what those refugees want is the restoration of normality they want jobs they want autonomy they they very few only tiny minority go to the refugee camps because there it's this model of you feed you shelter for free forever what people do is go to the towns to work and the big tragedy is nobody's brought work Germany was in a wonderful position to bring jobs to refugees instead it basically had this model if you can swim to Germany fast enough will they do him so that produced a lot of people who drowned because there was no mechanism of getting them there but even on top of that it was incredibly selective I reckon that about less than 5% of Syrians in Germany but something between a third and a half of all Syrians with university degrees in Germany they're the very people who will be needed to Reno's area although it may actually help them but the you know they they may and may baby after Syria but they may end up with the best and the brightest arriving and that would be selfish not noble maybe let's hear from you Ellie on this question I know you've got something else to say but would people people asked about the question asked about the issue of people it was from here who come gone to Syria and they want to come back and obviously many of those from who left home he went through Turkey to get to Syria what should be the policy now not just in Britain big number European countries for the so-called returners from those countries now I see it as a massive problem and I'm just appalled that especially with the London Bridge attacks these people were not hiding what they were what they believed in it was so obvious because they like the propaganda they like to boast and still it wasn't or it couldn't be chased to me it's a big problem certainly those who go to Syria mostly to Syria but to other countries as well where they are more radicalized even I think it should be monitored and I am with you there are lots of big Internet companies that need to change their attitude from now on because this is the world we are living in with regards to the refugees yes I mean europe's position in general he used position i should say sorry i don't think it is sustainable at all because most of the refugees as they pointed out have been divided out sourced in a way trying to outsource the problem to Turkey to Jordan and to Lebanon several times Jordanian government said you know we can't do it anymore it's not sustainable in Turkey we have close to three million refugees Syrian refugees it's a big mess right now on humanitarian grounds it's wonderful that of course Turkey welcomed them but we have big big problems from security to gender issues that we don't talk about and also I think it is not admirable at all that EU for a long time postponed talking about freedom of speech violations in Turkey human rights violations in Turkey because it was like part of the barter not to talk about these issues that's that you know you lose that's how you lose respect but I just want to add this because it never makes it makes the headlines we have a big problem with child brides you rightly so mention those early and right child brides in Turkey the number of child brides increase dramatically after Syrian refugees we already had one in for every four marriage in wages in Turkey was with child brides but now even the numbers increase the number of Turkish men marrying Syrian girls women as the second wives third wives increase polygamy so these issues we don't talk about but also it's important to notice because of the entire mess because of the dangers of the journey most of the refugees who could make it to Europe are men young men within a certain age bracket this is so much so that in Sweden in places countries like Sweden it even affected the gender ratio okay thank you question was put to Douglas I think prompted Douglas by your remark that the one thing you must do to stop or reduce the flow therefore the questioner asked do you support a religious test for immigrants to this country and I suppose what was in his mind was if you don't how else would you be able to reduce the flow first of all of course you've got to remember that we've been talking about asylum a lot and certainly now the people coming into southern Europe certainly Italian points of entry I'm not asylum seekers in the way that we've seen they're not Syrians there are economic migrants looking for a better life and that is always in recent years been a massive part of this and these two things are constantly elided deliberately elided I think dangerously elided so yes I could well get on board with a religious test for instance in recent years there has been a significant genocide on our continent on our planet further Yazidis who were almost wiped out a couple years ago I could certainly get on board with something that prioritized asylum seekers as their you CDs or Coptic Christians that and that I can see what you're doing I can see what you're doing that everything's good what I'm saying is would you want to religious they didn't prioritize diseases make everyone find a level but would actually it rule out and rule and Muslims from granting entry into the sky can't see the sense in keeping a high level of economic migration from the Muslim world no so yeah a religious festival yes we're making and secondly very quickly a gentleman the back from Germany and you first what it's not a kids not the case that it's been fine with Turkish migration since the gas the bita period Merkel herself said in 2010 that it has been a disaster than five years later she made the disaster far bigger but it you know in 2008 Edwyn went to Germany and spoke to tens of thousands of Turks in Europe from the Netherlands Belgium and Germany and said in a massive public rally do not integrate but get involved in politics because we need you i sorry this is subversion this is outright subversion who the European democracy so yes we had a problem and as for the as it were would it matter if one in 1 million became a suicide bomber again it's a cost-benefit analysis isn't it do as long as you're not the one standing outside the wine bar in Ansbach when the suicide bomber goes off it might be ok for you it might be it might be ok and it seems to be for most people in our political parties in Britain it might be ok for you to not not worry about this identity question not worry about the numbers and but you've just got to hope your kids don't like ariana grande and go on the wrong night but I think there's a cost-benefit analysis that this has to be weighed up and if you do think that then say it ok we'll take a suicide bombing every now and then we'll take the stabbings every now and then sure Christie wants to come back and then I want to another idea just to remind though that most terrorist attacks that have happened in this country as well as in France have been committed by our citizens by people having British or French or Belgian citizenship but that's again the issue how come our societies have not been able to cope with the generation of young people who have been through our schools have benefited from our education have been taught to share our values and still turn to that murderous ideology we won't interfere on to the request request again an issue of identity that somehow we haven't been able to give them an identity which they can share into okay it's a it's an ideology even more so than a religious issue and unfortunately in this case Islam is contaminated with that particular ideology okay let them hear some see some more hands because there's lots of people I'm sure good lots of people who want to express themselves let them bring Jim come there and say you got somebody there and have you got somebody there okay well and we'll probably I know lots of hands we're not going to be able to eat you all but I'll do my best yes but if we how has our foreign policy contributed to the problems we're facing today good thank you could you bring the mic French of this gentleman here in readiness Mima will go to there yep over there yep I can ask the same question okay we'll go to whoever sorry and we'll go to general in the front our title is Europe on the edge and as you said in your introduction a lot has changed since this title was given the European project has developed from six countries to 28 countries with a single market with a single currency yeah is the cause of the problem of being on the edge this drive towards a single state which would result possibly in all countries citizens losing their identity okay it's away from the terrorism topic but absolutely on our bigger theme yes you've got a question here I'll talk a lot about migration coming from the Middle East but there seems to be an enormous amount of migration coming from Africa can the panel because some ideas of what they thought we should do because it seems countries are losing a lot of their young men and they're all coming to Europe okay so you're meaning from your worry is for Africa's sake about losing their own people is it what the world view should do okay we got somebody over there yeah well referring to the idea that this problem was imported actually the UK has a colonial path and in several occasions has invited immigration in order to rebuild the country after the war so it's not it's a bit unfair to say that inconvenient times we welcome immigrants and then we shut our doors thank you so those people are going there with microphones do you make sure we get a balance to mix of men and women because they're quite a few from member we'll get from here you've got somebody daddy yeah yes I'm wondering if you know can talk about why the Scandinavian countries are consistently scoring as the happiest places on earth what a cheery question to lighten the gloom you've got something there yeah and my question was we are possibly likely to have a government when it comes in that they say that we need to have reduced freedoms in order to reduce terrorism is it worth it thank you I'm going to take two more then we're going to have sev answers and closing remarks I'm afraid so we'll have two more you've been very patient of young men here he's got his armor but you've been beaten to it by this man he's can do one and he'll pass it to you got that maybe it'll appear what to manage the panel are very keen on enthuses more culture and device diversity etc six took Britain as an example particularly those northern towns and focusing purely on culture what aspects of Saudi Arabia Somalia and Afghanistan's culture would the panel like to see more of this misted for Britain okay and you call from Agron here yeah yeah and seeing us the panel are all being expected to have an opinion on it on on Islam I just like to know how to pinterest how many the panel have studied the Quran the hadith from the life of Muhammad in detail please okay that's okay we'll do 1 1 1 this will be the very last one here ok I'm not doing much my gender balance record that ok I'll allow you in any way God well do British an Israeli citizen my concern in seeing things up in the past is how the impact of extremist violence is going to affect elections especially coming in next couple of days here and I'm wondering what a panel sees our walk and firmly seeing like okay well there's lots there thank I'm sorry people I couldn't get in we are beginning to run outside and I want to give our panel a chance to react to some of those questions and make some closing remarks as well and why don't we begin with well Paula Collier I'm going to ask you to tackle the one question that came up that wasn't really about the terrorism issue they took aspect to our biggest subject about Europe and to what extent your of Ian project was in trouble and on the edge because of this insistence as the questioner saw on driving towards a single European state I mean for Britain this argument was rehearsed very strongly a year ago and it was settled one very clear way but obviously the question who feels it's ongoing for the rest of Europe why don't you take that question pool and any other closing thoughts you might have I think the the European project is a is a is a fantasy of old men who are fighting an old battle and they're trying to stop Germany and France having another war and Germany and France they're not going to have another war I mean here's the to my mind the acid test Norway is not in the euro it's not even in the European Union and the Netherlands is in both if we go back to the 1940s Germany invaded both of them is Germany now more likely to invade no way in the Netherlands right obviously the answer is no right the piece that's descended on Europe is nothing to do with this damp institution all right the institution was because of a revolt against war so the cultural shift Preedy created the institution not the institution the cultural shift I think the attempt by these old guys to create a supranational set of institutions without any chance of getting a supranational identity and it's going to is going to fail big time I think and I work a lot on societies where the structure of power has diverged from the structure of identity most of society if I work on identities local and power is highly centralized and power doesn't turn into Authority and then you've got a real problem very in Europe power hasn't turned into authority the directives of the European Commission when they're inconvenient so just ignored product thank you I wanted to put you one other thing just because it strikes me that you may be best placed on Thurs the question that came from over there was about the extent to which Britain in a way if you think this is now a problem it only has itself to blame in big quotation marks because of the invitation to populations that were previously ruled as colonies by Britain to come here as immigrants and the question said in partly to repair and rebuild the country after the war and so there is there's a history to this decision it wasn't as if you know Muslim communities from Pakistan etc just came here randomly there was a colonial history to this sorry but the the the big surgeon immigration has been the last 20 years we weren't rebuilding in a country last 20 years I'm sorry so it was a big change of immigration policy which created quite a problem okay and the idea that this idea that it's British foreign policies has caused the problem the effort I want mainly on Africa but always always Europe in the last vestiges of neocolonialism is that whatever happened in the world it's because of something we've done we're obsessed but and just look at just look at the massive variation across Europe in attribute the Iraq war and what-have-you and you look where the Terrorism has been Sweden Norway Germany France Spain yeah this is nothing to do with British foreign policy I'm sorry okay thank you Ellie why don't you tackle that question the questioner asks how has foreign policy what role it has foreign policy has played in the creation as a driver of terrorism why don't you take that one and also anything that composing thoughts you might have I think we need to highlight there is there is a clash obviously but this is not a clash between civilizations it's not a clash between religions it is a clash within nations within every nation there are conflicting clashing values there is one big such clash in Turkey in the Middle East within Europe was as well and they're all connected we need to be aware of history I think memory is important memory is a responsibility I disagree I think there was a reason why the entire journey of EU started in the first place and yes the Brussels elite did make lots of mistakes but it's possible to reform EU let's not take things for granted that easily it's thought that the journey started most necessary as a financial project but this is let us not forget upon the ruins of the Second World War people who were very much aware of the dangers of nationalism jingoism militarism maybe it won't come from Germany but maybe it will come from Russia maybe it will come from somewhere else but that danger is already there we're not necessarily going forward sometimes we make the same mistakes that our ancestors have made to me it's very important to understand that we are all of us in this together the more we create us versus them the bigger the mess immigration is a two-way Road when I look at the Turks and Kurds in Germany yes as a woman with liberal values it bothers me that there's so much nationalism so much religiosity so much sexism among some of the some of the Turkish and Kurdish communities but I'm also aware that I cannot generalize I'm also aware that they have contributed enormously but just to give you an example because you mentioned Ardoin our glance of this world create his wielders of this world and vice versa they keep seeing each other so when Ardoin gave that speech to the turks in the netherlands it was a huge in my opinion mistake but that also benefits here to this and it's popular parties just one final example when you look at how the Turks and Kurds across Europe voted it's very interesting 70 percent of the Turks in Germany voted Pro Ardoin 72 percent of Turks in the Netherlands watered for Aragon in the UK 80 percent voted against Iran just even this example shows us the diversity within immigrant communities even within the Turkish community let alone the entire Muslim world let us please not make sweeping generalizations about an ethnicity or religion or race three of you three of you still to speak and I know that we are holding people later than we expected and people have dinner reservations and the like so I'm going to gallop through please now that you know that you've got to be brief Cristina [ __ ] this question to you was the one about reducing freedom in order to enhance security is it worth it well I think we live in contradictions on the one hand we ask for better protection on the other hand we want our freedoms it is obvious that the technological revolution that we've all been addicted to has had has added to the danger because obviously all these terrorists are as good or even better than most of us at using the same technologies and I'm not sure at all that even if the gas follow these big American companies would agree and subscribe to their own government requests I'm not even sure they would be able to control the contents so I'm afraid this is another dimension I think our liberties will be reduced I'm not sure that it will eventually work all that well but again it is a contradiction in our democracy in France we have been living in a state of emergency for more than 16 months now we've become used to having a happy proficiency has it made you safer well it seems that many terrorist attacks have indeed been prevented right but one terrorist attack is always one too many of course okay to go to view left I want you to luigi's hard to ask you this because you're not what actually I'm going to get Douglas next because I want you to have the last word don't Douglas to you the question will terror affect these elections because you know other countries have had experience of terror attacks during election campaigns do you think the ones that happened in this country will affect the outcome on Thursday and perhaps we'll take that if everything else on strap-on and no I don't think that I mean I will be very surprised if in the wake of increased terror attacks the British people thought it was best to put their security in the hands as mr corbyn there huh so that means you can go to mouth very quickly well there have only been two groups of people in recent years who tried to blow up the British people the IRA and Islamist and one of the very few things that that linked them is the support of mr. Corbyn and I hope the British people will make their voice heard on that very quickly they let all of this stuff it's part of what the point of my book is to try to look at the deeper things underneath this our continent is wracked by guilt its racked by tiredness existential exhaust in a whole range of things that mean we are very vulnerable to anyone who comes along and said it's our fault we're very vulnerable to it and we I have to say a high time we've snapped out of it when I was last on the Greek islands the reception islands of the camps where migrants are coming in you know I was speaking to people from such a wide range of countries Bangladesh for instance what's this country done to bangladesh recently that should be a reason for us to be continuing to take in people from that country and what's your solution if people who think that you can't solve Syria what are you going to do to solve Eritrea and you think that in the meantime we have to continue the current wave of migration it's madness very quickly to the Scandinavian countries I don't buy it all happiness studies are bunk total but they always say that the best thing to be is a hill farmer in Bhutan rubbish absolute rubbish and it's the same with Scandinavia you've heard so many different points the one about the migration from Africa what aspects of the culture of Saudi and Somalia we might want to learn from but why do you give us a closing thought about where all this is going first of all I have to reveal a conflict of interest I'm an immigrant M&E we ran in the United States that I'm a name again so I'm naturally sympathized with immigrants and to the struggle there and to the richness that I bring this said I also understand the difficulties of integration I think that when immigration is too big is not an immigration is invasion and people feel overall and overtaken by by different values and this is not because is Muslim and non-muslim I think the calculate versus Protestant can be sort of people who eat rice versus people with pasta I think that people value their culture identities and yes food is a huge part of the cultural identity and they feel over overtaken so I think that we should be a little bit more carefully managing the process to avoid the backlash that we observe today but this backlash I think that I really don't like what the dark side and identifying Muslim because I think that is not a calculation but I think in this country more people died of Catholic terrorists than of Muslim parents and in spite of that you don't have the same level of anger versus catalysis so I think that is not and I grew up in a country where there was political terrorists and I can assure you was not any better and was all gone and so I think that we need to realize that when there are economic problems ideological problems there is the risk of extremists and we need to deal with that and dealing with that is not by criminalizing a religion or cumuli zhing a group on the other end we need the support of that group one way in which Italian Hong Kong terrorists was commonly status was was beaten the time is because the then Communist Party basically isolated the toilet so I think that what you need to do is trying to bring closer the Islamic community and make sure that they isolate the few bad apples thank you very well it's no surprise duranium we have not perhaps reached a consensus we have certainly not resolved these huge issues we've generated a lot of heat but I think in the process also I think some light I hope it's been illuminating for all of you please will you I hope join me in thanking a very very important panel Paul Collier electrified the ridges and galas 15o friends and Douglas Murray thank you all very much thank you

Channel: Intelligence Squared

Views: 412,189

Keywords: europe, EU, NATO, UN, war, peace, conflict, Elif Shafak, Douglas Murray, Paul Collier, Luigi Zingales, Christine Ockrent, Jonathan Freedland, far right, alt right, Greece, Netherlands, Le Pen, Donald Trump, Brexit, economy, economic crisis, liberalism, populism

Id: tMJobh2pbpE

Length: 86min 56sec (5216 seconds)

Published: Mon Jul 10 2017