welcome back to uncensored Douglas Murray and Jen Yuga are on bitterly opposing sides of a debate on Israel's war in Gaza Millions have watched them passionately articulate their cases on this show but never together so tonight on our final show of the year we've invited these two big brains to debate the big outstanding questions on this conflict how does the war end will Israel face repercussions for the scale of its response to October the 7th as it committed war crimes what is the future if any for Hamas for Gaza and for the prospects of a true Palestinian State most importantly how do we get to peace well I'm now joined by the author of the war on the West Douglas Murray and by Young Turks founder and Democratic presidential Challenger Jen Yugo welcome to both of you so I've I've interviewed you both a lot in this War uh but not together and Jen I know you felt the other night when you were debating other people I didn't really get into a debate and I think that's fair enough uh and what I'd like to today really is to be almost a referee if you like between you two to articulate your views and to see if we can reach any points of consensus um so in that spirit let me start with you Douglas um I think you're back in Israel uh is that right yes I'm in Israel tonight yeah today it was a sea of other stories have come out in the last few days which have been concerning I think for anyone who like me believes that Israel has not just a moral duty to defend itself but has a fundamental right to do so after what happened on October the 7th and I've said that clearly from the start it's always been for me the issue of of proportionality and it seems that in the last few days there' have been a number of incidents which really question whether Israel is being precise as it says it is or or indiscriminate and I would cite the the killing of the three hostages I would cite the killing of the two women outside the Catholic church I would cite the president of the United States saying that they're using indiscriminate bombing uh and so on do you Douglas notwithstanding your Full Throttle support of Israel does anything that's been happening make you think Israel needs to execute this war differently no and I think that most of the people who think they know how to execute this War uh have never executed a war indeed most people who think they know how the IDF should be running this conflict have never been near a conflict I'm in Israel tonight I was in Gaza and yesterday um and the examples that you give by the way peers I don't see why they show any need to prosecute the war itself differently I mean just to take one of them the first example you give the absolutely tragic awful um um shooting of these three hostages as they were coming out but you know the some of the spin that's been put on that in the world apart from the Glee of course that Israel's enemies can't help expressing um some of the spin on that is is almost as if it shows the IDF is sort of so brutal that it even kills Hamas hostages who are Israeli I just think this is another example of international media and others just having this astounding lack of empathy for the Israeli people can you imagine what it was like for those soldiers who were in Gaza knowing that at any point there were snipers there are there are uh booby traps everywhere um people coming out of tunnels that they've built at British and American taxpayer expenses and attacking them can you imagine what it was like for the soldiers who in that terrible moment made the lifechanging mistake of shooting three people who turned out to be Hamas hostages why would they on that on that why would they shoot anyone who was shirtless and waving an SOS flag I mean why would whoever they were whether they Israeli hostages or whether they thought they were Palestinians why would anyone shoot anyone who comes out like that that's my Point that'll that that'll be a matter for the inquiry into it but uh you know look it's hardly as if they'd have wanted to have done that what this demonstrates is in this incredibly close conflict in a heavily built up area with people coming out from all sides firing shooting detonating uh people make mistakes of course they do that's just a human reality of War horrible as it is I don't think it shows in any way that Israel is Prosecuting this war wrongly as the main issue of the war the main issue of the war is to destroy Hamas no Israeli of left or right or Center believes anymore after October the 7th they can live beside Hamas Hamas has been given the statelet of Gaza it was given it in 2006 voted in then killed their fellow Palestinians in a coup killed fat Rivals and they've run the Gaza for almost 18 years now and they've produced a new gener generation of people whose main aim in life it seems according to their textbooks and their classes is to regard Jews as enemies who should be killed this is just an unbelievable waste a waste of life on every side but apart from anything else a waste of those Palestinian lives of children who grew up under hamas's rule if you can call it that who have been indoctrinated into becoming sociopaths by a psychopathic Terror organization hamz all right Jen you've been listening to that um is there anything that Douglas said that you agree with no nothing not even about the way Hamas has has presided over Gaza in the last 18 years yeah so that's a weapon of mass distraction uh it it's Israel doing genocide on the Palestinians right now and uh there's IDF soldiers singing and and in video that the IDF has confirmed about how they're going to wipe out the seed of AMC that is a a verse in the old Hebrew Bible that talks about exter terminating ALC so they're talking about genocide against Palestinians uh Benjamin Netanyahu has also talked about uh wiping out amalec these are open calls for genocide what I find stunning he you know Douglas mentioned stunning lack of empathy there's 20,000 dead people in Palestine right now in Gaza uh over 8,000 of them are children when 36 Israeli children were killed by Hamas the world cried out out and I was brokenhearted over it 36 poor kids dead in Israel now there's over 8,000 dead kids in Gaza you want to talk about a stunning lack of empathy 6,400 women slaughtered in Gaza you want to talk about terrorism they're dropping unguided bombs 2,000 pound bombs every one of those bombs is an act of terrorism and the stunning lack of empathy towards Palestinian lives is disgusting but I want to be clear it is not shared by all Israelis the dad of one of the hostages who was killed went on Israeli television and said stop killing them and he didn't mean the hostages he meant the Palestinians all right let me just jump in but before I go back to dougas respons toly to that P yeah I I will let you reply to that on this issue of genocide do you accept though that hamas's whole on De when it comes to Israel is genocide they want to eradicate Israel and kill as many Jews as they can they've made no secret of this yeah so uh this is really important so I have no sympathy for Hamas so I'm not interested in defending Hamas I think that's nothing but a distraction because right now they're not fighting Hamas they're just killing pales they're also killing Hamas terrorists they are they're killing thousands of them barely no no wait a minute barely but let's go to your main point okay so the main point is well Hamas threatens X Y and Z and has killed 1200 people on October 7th so that is why we have to all worry about what Hamas might might might might do hold on hold on let me finish the point let me finish the point let me finish the point at what they might might might do if they had infinite power the kind of power that Israel has meanwhile Israel is actually doing the genocide is actually preventing a Palestinian State and saying you are not allowed to exist and if you dare try to exist we'll kill of your children and women all right Douglas respond to that several things first of all anyone who uses the term genocide in this context simply doesn't know what they're talking about or is a malevolent actor uh I don't know if Mr weer has traveled at all in his life how far he's traveled how many conflicts he's seen but I'd have guessed none and and you clearly know nothing about this particular conflict and you've obviously seen none of it um the genocide that you describe is such a smear and a liable against the Jewish state if Israel wanted to commit genocide I'm sure it could but it doesn't it doesn't remotely want to and people like you and other Pro Palestinian propagandists have spent years claiming that Israel is committing genocide in the Gaza by the way the weirdest thing about this claim is that the population of the Gaza has grown by a million in the last 15 or so years so if Israel was trying to carry out a genocide it's either the worst perpetrator of genocide ever or uniquely poor at performing that task none of the stats support that ridiculous claim it's such a weird smear and a liel of Israel secondly of course you've just rattled off hamad's figures as every one of your kind always does thirdly you said that the world cried World cried you said you said the people like you who cover for the Palestinian extremists thirdly you said that the World cried out for the 36 Israeli dead children no they didn't and you know that very well you know that very well if you put up a poster to a missing dog in any Western City that poster stays up in city after city in America posters of abducted Jewish children including a 10-month-old baby were put up and were ripped down by people who have been indoctrinated into hate of Jews nobody would rip down the poster of a missing dog but from Dublin to Berkeley they ripped down posters of abducted Jewish children so no I don't think there was let let put dougas Let me let me make let me make two other very quick points firstly you said what Hamas might do as if it was some kind of hypothetical Hamas showed what they do what they want to do it showed it on October the 7th and its leadership as I'm sure you very well know said that they would like to repeat that again and again until they have got rid of every Jew so I don't know I would trust hamas's word on that rather than your interpretation of what you think they mean when they say that and your and your generous interpretation of what you think that means and finally as for preventing a Palestinian state it is nonsense that the Israelis have prevented a Palestinian State they gave the gazans a Palestinian state in 2005 they gave them a pal inan state in 2005 when every Jewish person was ripped from their homes in the Gaza by IDF soldiers and the Palestinian people were given a state and what did they do they voted in Hamas who then killed their fellow Palestinians never had another election and used all the billions of dollars of taxpayer funds from the US UK and Europe to build Terror tunnels and to enrich themselves so they could live the life of luxury and katar again and again the reason there is not a Palestinian state is because the Palestinian leadership doesn't want one didn't want one in 1947 it preferred war and it doesn't want one now Doug let me put one point to you raised by Queen Rony of of Jordan in a new piece for I think it was the Washington Post uh in just over two months she said Israel's turned Gaza into a hellscape at least 8,000 children have died more than the death tolls of Pearl Harbor September the 11th and huran Katrina combined these are gigantic and horrendous numbers of children being killed do you not have any quals about the number of children being killed I mean does it not suggest that Israel I want to hear I want to qu I want to hear Queen Ria talking about this as much as I want to hear Queen Camila or Megan Markle I mean it's pathetic Queen Ria is holding on to her own posess position in Jordan uh the only piece of advice she has for anyone is how to marry a king uh Queen Ria herself is just playing a very nasty political game if she cared at all and I would pose this to all the states in the region if Jordan cared at all for the Palestinian peoples they would take them in they would take them in they don't want them if the Egyptians wanted them they take them in but they don't you know why because every country that takes in the Palestinians gets Terror it happened in Egypt it happened in Jordan it happened in Syria it happened in Lebanon it happened in Tunisia on and on that's why these people don't really care about their fellow Muslims they just care about hating Jews all right Jake your response yeah so you asked if he cared about 8,000 dead babies and his answer was no uh Queen ra bothers me so a complete non-answer because he doesn't care he doesn't think that Palestinians lives are worth anything he just called them all terrorist nice you can put that word always do so hold on I let you talk for a long time so why don't you shut up for a second so uh we got all these dead babies we've got all of these dead babies that this monster doesn't care about he says keep bombing them a Former Intelligence officer said in the Israeli press they're using AI in a program called The Gospel where he said it's B basically a mass assassination Factory and we could all see it with our own eyes and you could do all the propaganda you want No One Believes your nonsense we see all the dead women we see all the dead children now Israel has killed 20 times the number of civilians that Hamas killed so would I want Hamas in charge of Israel never never I don't trust them and I don't believe that they would be benign so all of this propaganda about oh like oh people don't mind Hamas no we mind Hamas we mind we terribly what happened on October 7th and I'm now showing you different israelies that have said that it's a problem and I I want peace and security for both Israel and Palestine and this does not get Israel any peace or security but when you ask the other side do you mind T of thousands of civilians that have been murdered incinerated alive body parts picked out of rubble little babies killed over and over again in what is even the Israeli Prime Minister is referring to as amalak meaning an extermination of the Palestinian people and I must clarify the difference between a genocide and a hoca a genocide is when you target a specific people and kill a lot of civilians cban where 6,000 people were killed was considered a genocide so it is it doesn't mean you try to murder every single person in that that is a holocaust one second one second before before I go to Douglas Jen one question you want to get rid of Hamas too as does Douglas as do I if you don't do it the way that Israel is currently doing it given that they live amongst the population how else do you do it yeah there's an excellent way to do it and there's the right way to do it so let me explain so War this guy talks about oh I love War I go to all the conflict zones so by watching it and rooting on for more death I know something about conflict you know nothing so here's what reality is war gets you more war but peace actually works so when Israel did a peace deal with Egypt not only were the Egyptians safe but the Israelis became safer that peace deal has held for decade after decade so how do you do a peace deal in this case what you do is you make a you do the two-state solution now and you do it with the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and if you then have a Palestinian State the Palestinian Authority would have the credibility to drive out Hamas from Gaza that is a realistic plan for both peace security for Israel and the Palestinians and driving out Hamas the idea that you're going to kill 200,000 more civilians in Gaza and it's going to drive out that respond to that first of all first of all I mean your other guest I mean I don't know what kind of a creature he is he's a kind of low grade Thug as far as I can see he's listened to nothing I've said yeah yeah I know because I'm I'll tell you I'll tell you no it's not that at all it's not that at all I just think that you're a very I think you're just a very low rent racist but anyway let me just get on to it you say you say first of all you say I don't care about the death of Palestinian children yes I do care I care very deeply about it but I also know that the responsibility for their deaths lies on Hamas which has misgoverned their society for the last 16 years and now has been leading the country into being in a war with Israel so yes it's on Hamas this as for seeing Wars by the way I just mentioned about seeing Wars because as far as I can see you're very ill traveled as well as rather ill lettered and Ill spoken and I mentioned that I cover Wars and go towards because I happen to think myself that it's worth seeing things with your own eyes including things that you don't particularly like but you report the truth I don't know if you ever even leave your own bedroom and I can tell already that you don't because you've already said something that demonstrates you know nothing about this conflict you have just demonstrated it in the following terms you said that this is why we need to push for a two-state solution and give legitimacy to the Palestinian Authority I'll tell you something you don't know because I guess you spent no time in the West Bank have you I'll tell you something you probably don't know the Palestinian Authority fat celebrated the 7th of October massacres I'll give you another fact which demonstrates you know nothing about this and clearly haven't ever visited any Palestinians in the West Bank as I have if there was an election tomorrow in the West Bank the reason why there isn't one is because if there was an election tomorrow in the West Bank Hamas would win so your idea of a two-state solution I'm afraid you are so out of date and you really should leave your bedroom because in this region nobody thinks that there is a two-state solution on the table because there is not a viable negotiating partner but I just want to make one other main point you have gone on and on tonight throwing accusations out against the Jewish State against me it's the sort of thing you do I know you're a sort of sort of online pugilist and think you can run for office and good luck with that but I'd just like to point out that you only really get animated if the Jews are involved and I can tell that for the following reason I mean your surname is weager isn't it 1 million weager Muslims in China have been put in concentration camps in the last decade and PE you know people of your ilk never really care about that do you because it's not the Jews doing it it's a Chinese Communist party at the moment one million P Pak one million people who are from Pak who are in Pakistan at the moment who are your fellow Muslims and who happen to be Afghan and I don't think you care about them do you one million Afghans are currently being forcibly deported from Pakistan to Afghanistan you don't care about that you're not riled up about that you're not riled up about what the jungo weed are currently doing in Sudan where thousands and thousands of people are being attacked by the by the the islamist militia there you don't care about any of that you get exercised and you rile up what little base you have of Mal contents because you're riled up when the Jews do anything it's perfectly obvious okay Jen your response yeah okay first of all uh my last name is yuger we're named after the weager Turks in China and we talked about that on spoken up then yes yes I we've talked about it endlessly but you don't know that and you don't watch the show nobody watches your show nobody does watch your show yeah well okay again you're interrupting me when I was kind enough to let you do go on with your mad ramblings so it how nobody watches the show we have five billion views a year uh I don't know what piddling outf you're on or what little substack or whatever the hell you write on so the reason we're incredibly popular we fight for shut up we fight for all innocent civilians so yes we've covered all of those conflicts yes I'm against fundamentalist Islam no question about it I'm against fundamentalist religions of all kind in terms of uh you every right-wing supporter of Israel their only tactic is hey don't look at the 8,000 murdered children don't look at the 6,400 murdered women don't look at the fact that all the hospitals in Northern Gaza have been shut down don't look at the fact that four out of five people in Northern Gaza are starving right now and half the people in southern Gaza are starving instead anti-semite anti-semite now I wait a minute I just told you how much I want peace security for Israel how much I hated what happened on October 7th what you don't know is I started The Young Turks with two Jewish friends and so the whole program is both Jews and Muslims you know nothing you know nothing I have Jewish family and friends why the War gods as they go to Israel I want them to be safe okay so I have shown empathy for all civilians throughout everything I have ever done but all you have is hatred oh he's an anti-semite kill the Muslims kill the Palestinians and once we kill them by the way we'll blame them for it we had to Israel had to murder all those babies in Palestine because Hamas made us Ste it then why are you listening to Hamas why are you letting Hamas drive your agenda well you don't have to kill those civilians it's a mass assassination Factory we are what 9 weeks into this war 20,000 people according to the Hamas run health authority but the numbers have not been questioned by other official bodies 20,000 people so have died on the Palestinian side and it is estimated from the IDF that they they say they've killed 7,000 or so Hamas terrorists that number has not been verified but if you take that as being accurate that's 20% of the estimated number number of Hass terrorists that exist therefore there's 80% still to be eliminated which at this rate would take another 8 to 10 months and would lead to potentially several hundred thousand civilians being killed and pretty much all of Gaza being obliterated with nowhere for the 2 million who've been displaced to go back to so my question for you is if this is the game plan by Israel to finish Hamas right to Bas terrorist what is left after that they talk about the day after the war what does it look like who runs Gaza where do these people go back to live in other words what actually happens if Israel is successful however long it takes in eliminating Hamas well first of all I just have have to add you you quite rightly said it appears that the figures you gave are Hamas figures and we do have to treat them with more than a grain of salt um as for again uh my counterpart here goes on about uh the deliberate genocide of children and and women I mean I know and this is a sort of thing I I think you do you sort of claim that there are bombs being deliberately dropped on children and old women why would Israel want to drop bombs deliberately on children or old women I mean you just again it's just a shame you don't get out and see anything um the Israelis do an incredibly careful campaign before bombings to try to make sure that civilians are warned to live leave areas that are about to be attacked everybody knows that everybody in the region knows that it's a shame that that fact hasn't got to you as it happens the whole question you raised p is a very very complex one I don't have the answer I don't believe anyone does have the answer about the day after uh nobody wants to rule the Gaza uh the Israelis used to be in charge of it they left as I say in 2005 to the last Jew they were all taken out of their houses Israel doesn't want to rule the Gaza now who can rule the Gaza hamaz clearly cannot because they set it up as as a terrorist stat can some fat like Authority be encouraged to take it over possibly possibly I spoke to one Palestinian analyst earlier today who said that actually just as I said earlier that an election in the West Bank today would elect Hamas perhaps an election to tomorrow if it was to happen and I'm not sure if that's going to be a good idea might even actually elect not Hamas Palestinians to power but it's a heck of a risk the reality is that the only solution to Gaza that anyone can see I can can imagine is it it has to be a solution which involves multiple players in the region the question of the Gaza is a very complex question it used to be ruled by Egypt used to be run by Egypt can Egypt have a role in my view it has to have a role can Jordan be involved in my view yes it has to have a role can the Gulf States including those who've been pumping money to Hamas have some kind of role yes I would hope so it cannot be Israel's task alone to deal with the question of the Gaza it has to involve multiple players in the region but there's one kicker to that which is that none of the Arabs in this region that I'm sitting in care a jot about the Palestinians they really do not if they did for all of their talk they would have done something they would not have decided to keep the Palestinians out as they have in country after Country Queen Ria can invite the uh gazans into Jordan she can invite the West Bank palestin Ians into Jordan she doesn't Egypt could open its border with Gaza it doesn't the Egyptian border with Gaza is firmer and more closely locked than the Israeli ones there are gazen workers who until the atrocities of October the 7th every day were going through the erets crossings and others to work in Israel and to earn a decent living were there workers going in Daily into Egypt no because the Egyptians don't want Palestinians in their country so the only solution is a regional one but I'm afraid in this region there are very few people who care about the Palestinians okay uh Douglas you had the first word uh Jen I'll give you the last word I want to preface it by saying that it's been reported today this has come from uh hamas's uh uh statements apparently picked up by newspapers in America that there was a new hostage deal offered which was that Hamas will ask Will you release the 40 women and children you still have captive uh in return for a week-long ceasefire and they apparently have rejected that so I think that when we talk about uh behavior on both sides the mere fact that there are still 40 women and children in the clutches of Hass and God knows what they're doing to those poor women um that should be noted too there are still innocent people being held in the most appalling conditions by herass and that is also motivating Israel's response I'll give you the last word Jen yeah so I I wish to God that they would release those women and and children I think it's immoral to keep them it's wrong in every way uh but Israel kills more than 40 women and children every single day uh all completely innocent uh look even if you take idf's outlandish numbers of 7,000 Hamas Fighters killed that means their kill ratio of civilians to Fighters is still worse than hamas's and they have now killed 20 times the number of civilians that Hamas has killed so when when Douglas talks about driving them into Egypt or Jordan that's just ethnic cleansing they live in Gaza so if you push them out and they say well you're all Arabs anyway why don't you just go live somewhere else in the region that's the definition of ethnic cleansing that is outrageous and he says it with Bly with no concern because Palestinian lives don't matter and you ask them hey how many Palestinians can you Poss ibly killed and he never answered the question so the reality is you cannot kill your way out of this conflict the more that they killed the more what do you think that the Palestinians are going to feel what would you feel if your family was butchered if their heads were crushed by a bomb that was dropped on a building if they were lit on fire by the bombs that were dropped what would you do you'd fight back the rest of your life and then they are o permanently occupied now now Netanyahu says he was proud that he did prevented a Palestinian State and that he will continue to prevent a Palestinian State he is not a partner for peace or he profits from war his whole career is about perpetrating War not just to murder Palestinians but it keeps Israel unsafe for eternity the whole point of Israel is to be a safe haven for oppress Jews throughout the world it cannot be a safe haven as long as you're imprisoning 5 million and Palestinians and saying we are never ever going to let you go and if you ever dare oppose us we will kill your women and children not in prison it's disgusting they're not in prison I would urge you again I urge you again I'd Ur urge you again Chen leave your bedroom sometime and come to this region see it for yourself I thought I was supposed to get the last word this talking about bedrooms care about the babies you care about the women Douglas why don't you admit you don't care about dead Palestinian babies dead pal you don't it Israel Israel Israel you say right or wrong no matter how many people they have murdered no matter how many kids they approached death don't care because you don't care about human beings all you want is some sort of War US state Etc war going to wrap it I got to say listen little man I think we actually had a very man Super Evil you don't mind the death of of people War mongering Jak let's not descend into this I actually think with with a few exceptions we had a good debate there right I understand passions Run High I think it's a shame whenever I do these debates when it gets ad homenum in the way that it has occasionally tonight but I do think we've also had some really smart takes from both sides about what is going on and where we need to get to I think we can all agree on one thing we all want to end up with peace here somehow it's going to be horrendously difficult uh it's very complicated that's not true but I do I don't I don't actually think knowing both of you as I do I don't believe the charge that neither of you care is true I think you do care about all the lies that are being LA and I think that we we should start from an acceptance we all care and then try and be more constructive but listen I thank you both for joining me I wish you both a Merry Christmas I'll see you both no doubt in the new year and I thank you both I thank you both for your regular contributions to the show particularly since this War started because I I really do appreciate it and I want to hear both sides and I think you both articulate your cases extremely powerfully so thank you both very much thank thank you
