♪ (HBO INTRO PLAYS) ♪ MARLENE:<i>
No matter how hard you try,</i> <i>no matter how many people
you kill,</i> <i>she's gonna grow up, Joel.</i> <i> And then you'll die,
or she'll leave.</i> <i> Then what?</i> <i> How long till
she's torn apart by Infected</i> <i> or murdered by raiders?</i> <i> Because she lives
in a broken world</i> <i>that you could have saved.</i> JOEL MILLER:<i> Maybe.</i> <i>But it isn't for you to decide.</i> MARLENE:<i> Or you.</i> <i>So what would she decide,
huh?</i> <i>'Cause I think she'd want
to do what's right.</i> ♪ ("THE LAST OF US"
THEME MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ TROY BAKER:
Welcome back, everybody, to HBO's<i>
The Last of Us Podcast.</i> I am your host, Troy Baker,
and I'm joined not only this week
by the showrunners, Craig Mazin
and Neil Druckmann, but by one of the most
cherished people in my life. ASHLEY JOHNSON:
Oh my goodness, that's so nice. TROY: The inimitable
Ashley Johnson, who played Ellie in the game and in this episode plays the character Anna,
Ellie's mom. -ASHLEY: Hey!
-NEIL DRUCKMANN: Whoo! -Whoop-whoop! Whoo!
-(LAUGHTER) ASHLEY: Hello. TROY: And it's
that character, Anna, that I want to talk about
just off the very beginning, as the top of our episode. And I want to kind of
go around the room and get everybody's
perspective on it, starting off with you, Neil. Where did Anna come from? NEIL:
"Where did Anna come from?" It was definitely while
working on the first game. You're trying to define
more of the world than what you're actually
going to experience. So, for Ellie,
it was a lot about kind of going backwards
and defining her history, including some other stuff
that we've never seen before of, like, what are
some of the people she's been attached to? But even like, okay,
where does it all begin? So much of the story is
about parents and children. Who are Ellie's parents? And it was
kind of interesting to figure out
who her mom was, and what did she go through, and what
did she leave Ellie. So, in the game,
she's defined by a note that she's left her
and a switchblade that she passes down to her. And then once we finished
production on the game, there was an opportunity
to do an animated short with a studio
that was interested in working with us. So I had written
a short story about Ellie's mom and the day
she gave birth to Ellie. And then
things fell through, and that story had
to get shelved. I actually wanted--
I loved that story so much, I wanted to shoot it as,
like, a live-action short. And we had talked
about that. ASHLEY: Oh, that's right! NEIL: Like at Comic Con
one day, we were, like, kinda talking about it,
and then everybody got busy. And that fell through again. And then
when we were working on<i> The Last of Us II</i> and I started working
with Craig, he asked me
all these questions about the world. "What are some stories
we haven't told?" But then I told him, like, "Oh, here's this short story
about Ellie's mom and how she gave birth, and she got bitten
right before she gave birth and had to cut
the umbilical cord. And she wasn't sure
if she had passed on this infection or not." And I'll pass it
on to Craig, and he can tell his side
of the story. CRAIG MAZIN:
And I said, "Holy fuck!" (LAUGHTER) CRAIG: "We're doing that." There are times
when you think, "Ooh, that could be good," or, "Hmm, if we could
find a place for it." And that was one
of those circumstances where I just said,
"No, no, no, we're fucking doing it." Because my connection
to Ellie, as a character,
goes back to 2013. So I've been, you know,
in love with this kid for ten years by then, or whatever it was--
eight years. And now we're making this new version
of this kid, and this bit of backstory
was so gorgeous to me and so upsetting. But it also explains
something important because I always wanted
to know, "What was this, just some weird,
random genetic thing? Like, why is she immune?" Well, here's an answer, and what I loved
so much about it was that the answer was soaking
in sadness. And there was such
an opportunity to see a mother give birth.
I mean, I've had two kids, and each time,
when the child emerges, there's this just release
of emotion. Like there's not anything
that you even feel happening. Like, you know,
when you feel like you're about to cry, it's like there are signs
and it's coming? Baby comes out, no lead-up,
just nothing, tears, boom. -ASHLEY: Mm-hmm.
-CRAIG: Just instant. Yeah, like instant. So, that kind of moment
of pure joy followed by this terrible
acknowledgement that you will have maybe
two or three hours or a day, and that's it. And you are not gonna
be able to do your job as a parent. And the whole theme here
of Joel failing to keep his daughter alive,
and Joel struggling to keep Ellie alive,
and here's the first person in Ellie's life, her mother,
who's failing to protect her kid
or keep her kid alive because if someone
doesn't show up, they're not gonna make it. All of that
just made it essential. And then the very next thing
we said was, -"We gotta get Ashley."
-(LAUGHTER) CRAIG: 'Cause who else
in the world could possibly be
Ellie's mother? TROY: For you, Ashley, having such
a deep connection to this story and to Ellie,
walk us through what it's like for you
to get that news and say,
"Here's an opportunity." ASHLEY: Oh, man. Oh no, I'm gonna instantly
get emotional. I remember
when Neil texted me and... (CHUCKLES) ...I just
instantly burst into tears-- into tears
'cause I was like, "Wait, are you serious?
No way." Because, like,
when they adapt a video game into a film or TV,
generally the voice actors don't-- it doesn't
go past that. But I think I got
so emotional about it because it's-- There's so many levels to--
Oh, goddamn it. CRAIG: Here come the tissues. ASHLEY: It's starting.
I can feel my voice shaking! NEIL: Let me help.
I'll buy you some time. ASHLEY: Please talk, so don't look at me
and talk. NEIL: I'll give you
a short reprieve. CRAIG: I'm gonna stare
at you while you talk. NEIL: I think,
for my interpretation, why this means
so much to you, and why it means
so much to me for you to be
a part of this, is 'cause Ellie is you
in so many ways. Like, we wrote that game
kind of live, organically. Like, we had some ideas of
where the story was going, but then you were cast,
and you helped shape that character
significantly. One of the first scenes
we shot is the truck ambush. ASHLEY: Oh yeah. NEIL: And in the game, like, you get pulled
out of the truck, and you're kind of
wrestling with this guy until Joel comes
and saves you. And you pulled me aside
when we were working on that scene,
and you're like, "I feel like
I would fight back more. And I'd be
more active here." And that was
the first, like, moment where the character
started shifting towards becoming
much more capable and I think interesting
because of that. And that was just like
one of many changes over the years
that we have talked about and you contributed. And we talked about this
in the previous episode, like, Ellie's love
of space is you. Like, that wouldn't be there
if it weren't for you. And, again, this comes
over and over again. There's so many things
in<i> Part II</i> as well that were, like, shaped
by you. So... CRAIG: Let me see
if we can keep you crying. (ASHLEY LAUGHS) CRAIG: So, and I've talked
about this a lot with both of you guys,
but I want to say it on the show because it means
a lot to me. Troy is a master
of a thousand voices. ASHLEY: Yes. CRAIG: Troy's voice has been
in my head across I don't know how many games. But the thing about Troy is,
when you meet him, he doesn't necessarily sound
like any of those people. ASHLEY: Mm-hmm. CRAIG: Whereas you sound
exactly like Ellie. (ASHLEY LAUGHS) CRAIG: And it is
so rattling and gorgeous. It's hard to explain, but you and Ellie
are so intertwined. I see you and Ellie
have this overlap that is astonishing,
and it's so exciting to me as a fan. Like I know people listening
to you right now are like, "Holy shit,
these three dipshits are sitting in a room
with Ellie," you know? Because you-- I don't know,
it's just-- that's why... To bring it back
to this opening and why I'm so proud of it,
and why I think it works so well,
and it makes me cry every time I see it,
is because you can feel like a handoff. You can feel
this beautiful connection from Ellie's mother
to Ellie. There is Ellie-ness
traveling through you. It's why-- One of
my favorite little moments. I mean, we had
these two babies that were fraternal twins. One was a girl,
and one was a boy. -And--
-ASHLEY: And the girl-- CRAIG: The girl was
a better actor than-- ASHLEY:
She was a better actor-- CRAIG: One day,
the boy will listen to this and be very bitter. -ASHLEY: Yeah. (LAUGHS)
-CRAIG: She was better. -ASHLEY: "I had my chance!"
-(LAUGHTER) CRAIG: She was better. Also, she was ultimately
cheaper for us because if we had to use
the boy in certain scenes, we were gonna have to,
like, digitally paint out his, you know,
his situation. (LAUGHTER) CRAIG: So it was
much easier with the girl. But-- So, she's got
this little baby there, and the baby's screaming,
and Anna, played by Ashley-- ASHLEY: That's me. CRAIG:
...which, theoretically, is also played by Ellie in its own weird way,
is saying, "Yeah, you tell 'em. You fuckin' tell 'em,
Ellie." Like, Ashley Johnson
is essentially saying, "I know you, little kid.
You're like me. I like how angry you are.
This is Ellie." -ASHLEY: "Go get 'em."
-CRAIG: And, yeah, "Go get 'em.
Go fucking get 'em." And I don't believe
we wrote, "Oh, you're so tough,"
right? That was just you
having a natural, maternal response. And, "Oh, you're so tough,"
was maybe my favorite line, which you just said. Because I love
anything where Ellie's genetic creator
is acknowledging that there's something
tough there. Even if she's giving her
some shit about it 'cause she's not
that tough yet, she will be. NEIL: Ten out of ten times
I watch that and I cry as well. TROY: Ashley,
for over a decade now, you've lived with
this character. You've... imbued a part of
yourself into her. And you've watched how it's
not only been interpreted and put into a game, but now
in a completely different medium by a completely
different actor. What does seeing Bella
as Ellie mean to you? ASHLEY: Ooh...
It's interesting being sort of attached and a part
of a character for so long, and the lines get blurred.
And... when it was talked about that this was gonna be
turned into a movie or a show,
and there has been sort of different versions
of it, and... You know, not that we have
any say, necessarily, in who was cast in it, but something didn't ever
feel right until Bella. Like... There is something
so similar that the both of us have. And, instantly, when I met
Bella, there was this feeling of wanting
to protect them. And also... (LAUGHS) ...the first time
I met Bella, I was a little taken aback
because it felt like I was meeting
the real Ellie, like the character
coming out of the game. TROY: I know exactly
what you mean. ASHLEY: Obviously,
we played these parts, but-- It's a strange thing,
but-- I mean-- There's a little bit of it
where it's like Bella -kind of feels like my kid.
-(NEIL CHUCKLES) ASHLEY: And we have
very similar mannerisms, and she gets it. And I was so blown away
by her performance. And there was
the scene where, when Tess gets bitten,
and Tess asks Ellie, "Are you okay?"
And in my head, I was like, "Man, I would have shit
my pants." (LAUGHTER) ASHLEY: And then, literally,
like five seconds later, -Ellie says it.
-CRAIG: Yeah. ASHLEY: And I was like,
"Oh my God!" Yeah, there's-- there's-- there's a kinship
that we have. And I want Bella
to also have ownership of the character too. And... I see it. And just who Bella is
as a person is Ellie. And it's so perfect
and so wonderful. And even in the--
with the plane. CRAIG: Yeah. ASHLEY: Where the moment of, "Well, dude,
you got to fly." CRAIG: "Got to go up
in the sky." ASHLEY: "You got
to go up in the sky." Each of the moments
that have been written in the show and that Bella
and Pedro have been able to perform are just
expansions on the story. And there's a through line
with Pedro's performance and with
Bella's performance, but it's also their own. CRAIG: And what, I guess, it's important for people
to understand is, you played Ellie.
And then I watched you, and Neil was there
from the beginning making this thing. And we absorb your Ellie.
That Ellie is in our brains and in our hearts
when we start to write Ellie for television,
but also cast Ellie. This is not coincidental.
And so it was, therefore, also so obvious
that we should then make you her mother because there is
a genetic continuity. ASHLEY: There-- Yeah. CRAIG: She is your daughter. She's your daughter
by performance. She's
your "performance kid." And so we picked her
because we felt like she fit into this thing
that we understood that you're
so much a part of. So it makes total sense. And saying, "Oh,
I wanna make space for her," that's a very "Ellie" thing.
It's just El-- You guys are Ellie.
You're both Ellie. -ASHLEY: Yeah. Yeah!
-NEIL: But I'll add... Often people ask, like,
"Oh, are you nervous about what the fans are gonna
think?" And all that. And then I'm like--
I-- I mean it when I said, "I've learned to turn
that part of my brain off," which is, like,
I have no expectations one way or the other
what the fans-- The fans are going to have
their reaction, and that'll be that. It's important for me
that we make something that we're proud of. But I have been
very nervous about how Naughty Dog
would feel about it because these are people that have followed me,
or whatever, and have dedicated years
of their lives... ASHLEY: Have also been
on this journey... NEIL: ...to bringing
this story to life. ASHLEY: ...creating
these characters. Yeah. NEIL: And in my mind,
I've always included you and Troy in that statement, but I think it has to be
more explicit than that because I would
have been crushed if Troy didn't like Pedro,
or his performance, specifically. And same thing
with you, Ashley. If you didn't like Bella,
I would be devastated because you helped bring
Joel and Ellie to life. If I didn't work with you,
I don't think we would have been
as successful. I don't think that the magic
would have been there. But also, they'd be
vastly different characters and be written
very differently. So it's like you're- the DNA of Joel and Ellie
is very much continuing in this other dimension of
this version of the story. CRAIG: The other dimension. TROY: I want to kind of
focus on this-- this opening scene
for a little bit. And Craig, for you, clearly, everyone's excited
to tell this story. How do you fight
the temptation to put that at the very end? Why not put it
on episode two? We get background of Joel. Why not get background
of Ellie earlier? Why stave that off
to the very last episode? CRAIG: Hurts more.
It hurts more. NEIL: It was never,
like, in question. -CRAIG: No.
-NEIL: Remember, we said, -"Cold open...
-CRAIG: Has to be. CRAIG: Has to be that.
Always from the start. Because we need time
to meet Ellie ourselves, and we identify with Joel
from the start. Joel is clearly the--
He feels like the main character,
the protagonist. We see him prior to all this
with his own daughter. And then there's this kid. He has to
take her somewhere. We are discovering her
through him. And it was important,
I think, to not short-circuit that
by showing us stuff about her
that he didn't know and to give her
unnecessary context. It's better to watch her becoming who she is
with him and let that relationship be
its own thing. And then,
when nobody is expecting it, to throw
this heavy right hook. It does two things. First,
it contextualizes Ellie in a moment where we are
the most concerned about her because when we came off
of the episode prior, she had just killed a man
in the most brutal way and had clearly been
traumatized by her experience with him. And the other thing
it does is it connects her birth to the choice
that Joel has to make at the end of this episode. Marlene is there.
So, we now understand, "Okay, all the way back
in episode one, Marlene said,
'I put you there, Ellie.' 'What, are you my mom
or something?'" It was a joke then,
but here we kind of answer the question
of who the mom is. And in a way,
Marlene was her mom because from basically
two hours after she's born, Marlene becomes the woman
who looks after her. And it also cuts to
the nature of her immunity. So, when we get to the end
and there's Marlene saying, "I was there
when she was born." And Marlene leaves out
this fact, "And I was the one
who killed your mother." It all makes sense
here at the end. It could not have been done
anywhere else. NEIL: Yeah,
thematically as well. Again, the Marlene thing is it speaks to
the different philosophies that Marlene has
versus Joel, which is they both kind of
have accepted this kid, and they'll do anything
they need to protect them. But for Marlene, like,
her love is much more outward and broad
for all of humanity, that she's willing to
sacrifice her own morality and what she believes
is right, which is saving this kid in order
to save other people. Where Joel is
the exact opposite of that. CRAIG: The last episode is
so much about, "What will Joel be
as a father?" So, we have this maternal
act of creation and this maternal nurturing, but also a maternal
appreciation for toughness. You know? "And you fuckin'
tell 'em, Ellie." And you're gone. And instead
there's this guy. And now it's his job.
And what will he do? We know what you did
to keep her safe. What will he do? And that's why
that had to be there. And I think
that opening sets the stage for everything that happens
in this episode. NEIL: And there's
one more thing, which is why this was
important for it to be here at the end, which is over the course
of the season, Ellie loses
much of her innocence. CRAIG: Yes. NEIL: And here we see her
at her most innocent, a baby. CRAIG: And yet,
even as a baby, -born in violence.
-NEIL: Yeah. How much were you thinking
about Ellie that you know when you're making the scene? Or do you just, like, bury
all that, like, "No, no."? ASHLEY:
I mean, I did have... Like, I wrote out the note
from the game, and I had that in my pocket,
and then the switchblade. And I already have the story
in my head. I've lived it. So, I think that history
is already there. And also, the stuntwoman,
Kelsey Andries, who plays the Infected
in the scene... CRAIG:
Boy, did she do a good job. ASHLEY:
...blew my fucking mind! Like, I...
I feel like, for me, something that's really hard
to act and feel is fear because it's not something... I'm not in that situation
enough to know what that feels like,
to be like, "Oh my God! I could die at any second."
And... Kelsey just was
unbelievable. Like, her body work.
That stuff is so hard to do and was such an unbelievable
scene partner. Like, I had a baby--
babies that were amazing actors and the most
incredible stunt woman I think I've ever
worked with. And we fought each other. -I had a lot of bruises.
-CRAIG: (CHUCKLES) Yes. ASHLEY: She had a black eye. CRAIG: She had a black eye? ASHLEY: She did. CRAIG: The stunt people
on the show don't get enough credit
for what they do. It's... The way they would throw
their bodies around, it's astonishing. TROY: Anna kills the Clicker by stabbing it in the brain
with her switchblade, Ellie is born,
and then Marlene arrives. ANNA WILLIAMS:<i> Find someone
to bring her up</i> <i> and make sure
that she's safe.</i> MARLENE:<i> I can't do that.</i> ANNA:<i> And I want you
to give her this.</i> (BABY BABBLING) ANNA:<i> Her name is Ellie.</i> MARLENE:<i> I can't.</i> ANNA:<i> How long
have we known each other?</i> TROY: There's a line
that Anna says when she looks at Marlene
and says, "Find someone
to bring her up and make sure
that she's safe." CRAIG: Yeah. TROY: She doesn't implore,
or employ even, Marlene to do this.
She says, "Find someone." Do you think
that Anna trusted Marlene? Or do you think
that she knew that Marlene would be good
to find someone? Why didn't she just
ask Marlene to be the one? ASHLEY: Oh man, I feel like
there's a lot to that. I feel like a lot of it is
like, "I know this is such a shitty situation,
and I don't want to just throw this on you right now.
So I'm gonna give you an 'out'
by not fully putting the responsibility on you
of just like, 'Well, find...
find someone.' If it is gonna be you,
awesome. But, like, I know
that I'm putting you in the worst position
right now, and-- I don't know.
I don't know what to do in this moment right now
'cause I'm gonna-- I'm gone in 20 minutes,
so figure it out." But also, Marlene, to me... kind of doesn't fully have
the maternal thing. And I think there's also
that element, too, of like, she's the leader
of the Fireflies. -She's--
-CRAIG: I think that's it. ASHLEY: You know, it's like,
"I don't know if you're the person
for this job either." Like, there's so much
to that line-- NEIL: "But you're my friend,
and you'll figure this out." CRAIG:
"You'll figure it out." ASHLEY: Yes!
"You'll figure it out." CRAIG: "I'm not saying
that you, in your job, trying to liberate
the world, are going to have
either the time, nor inclination, nor ability
to raise this kid." -ASHLEY: Yeah.
-CRAIG: "So find someone." ASHLEY: Yeah. Like,
"I know I'm putting you in a fucked position
right now, but, like, I love you. You love me.
We're friends. Like, I know you're gonna
figure it out." CRAIG: I think
Ashley's exactly right. You're in a moment
where you are asking the biggest thing ever, and you have no time
for bargaining. You just have to go
straight to, "Here's my basic minimum. Anything beyond that
is great. But my basic minimum is,
find someone in the world to protect
and raise this kid." And even if you don't think
Marlene is the one who's gonna be able
to do that, the one thing I think that Anna knows
is that Marlene will not pick somebody bad. And in fact,
Marlene was brilliant. Marlene didn't pick
a person to raise Ellie. She picked FEDRA. -NEIL: Her enemies.
-CRAIG: Her enemies. And it's exactly
what she says to Ellie in episode one, "I knew that's where
you would be safest." ASHLEY: And I feel like
where she didn't have to get close to her, in a way. CRAIG: Well,
and that's the other thing. She wasn't gonna be checking
in on her every day. She wasn't gonna be
crazy Aunt Marlene, "Just checking in on her."
Quite the opposite. Because the closer you get
to Marlene, the more likely it is
that you're gonna be hurt because Marlene is
a criminal in this new world.
She's an outlaw. NEIL: We know that she was
watching her from afar. Always, like, making sure
she's safe and okay, which again, serendipity,
is like when the whole thing goes down
with Riley, Marlene happens to be there
and protect Ellie. Where like any other Firefly
would have shot her since she was bitten. CRAIG: "I am the one
that told them not to shoot you." NEIL: I'm curious
what it was like for you because it was
over ten years ago where you shot scenes with
Merle Dandridge as Marlene and now you got to have
a reunion with her. ASHLEY: I think the absolute
world of her, and... it was really cool. I mean,
I don't know how to describe this feeling of
shooting something that... It's so strange to be a part
of something for so long and then playing different
parts in the same world. She's amazing. NEIL: One other thing
I think is worth pointing out here,
which is why, again, this needed to be
in this episode. If you look at this opening and what Anna does
to protect Ellie, and you look at the ending
of what Joel does to protect Ellie,
the common thread is -they both lie.
-CRAIG: Yes. NEIL:
Uh, Anna says, "I cut it." CRAIG: Yeah. "I cut the cord
before I was bitten. Before." And she says "before" twice
because it's very clear that Marlene's like,
"I don't buy that." (LAUGHTER) CRAIG:
And she just is like-- I think even when Anna says
"before" the second time, I think she's almost saying, "Don't fucking question
my lie now. Just go with it." ASHLEY: Yeah, "Just go
with it. I'm gonna be--" CRAIG:
"Just go with this lie." NEIL: And the connection
there is, like, both Marlene and Ellie at the end-- CRAIG: And are going
with the lie. -NEIL: Going with the lie
-CRAIG: Go with a lie. "I'm going to choose
to believe your obvious bullshit because it's the right thing
to do in this moment. Or because the alternative
is unthinkable." And that's a great point
that Neil's making. Like, the parallels here
are extreme. And let's say that the natural
course of action takes place and little baby Ellie
is infected because you were infected, and she was connected
to you by blood. Well, in a couple of hours,
infant Ellie is gonna start twitching
and, you know-- and then freaking out, and they're going
to have to kill a baby. That baby could
theoretically pose damage. What if that baby
bites Marlene? You don't know
and you don't care. That's the thing.
Like, you say to Marlene, "How long have we known
each other?" "All our lives."
"So you'd do this for me?" Meaning, like,
we are best friends. -NEIL: You owe me.
-CRAIG: And you're still putting her in danger because your baby matters
more than her. And that is the theme
that we will keep rolling around with
the whole season. NEIL: But especially
this episode. CRAIG: But especially
this episode. TROY: So, let's move on
from the cold open with Anna, baby Ellie,
and Marlene. Now we're back with Joel
and a 14-year-old Ellie who is emotionally shut down in a way that we haven't
seen before. JOEL:<i> Ellie?
Did you hear me?</i> ELLIE WILLIAMS:<i> No. What?</i> JOEL:<i> I found this in there.</i> <i>Beefaroni, Chef Boyardee.</i> ELLIE:<i> Oh, cool.</i> CRAIG: After we leave Anna
and we jump to the future, Ellie is distant, and she is clearly feeling
the effects of the traumatic events
that happened a month earlier. So, the winter has ended,
it's spring, but she is clearly
experiencing some sort of
post-traumatic stress. And she's shut off and cold. Not because she's angry
at Joel. She's just-- She's wounded, and she doesn't quite know
how to process it. And Joel's trying
to get through, which is a kind of
heartbreaking reversal of the way it used to be. You know, in the beginning, when we see
Joel and Ellie having their first conversations
walking down the road in episode three, she's a chatterbox,
and he doesn't want to talk. And now he's a chatterbox,
and she doesn't want to talk until we have
this giraffe moment. -(GIRAFFE MUNCHING)
-(ELLIE GIGGLES) ELLIE:<i> So fucking cool.</i> <i> Oh, where's she going?</i> <i> Come on, come on,
come on, come on!</i> CRAIG: That moment was
entirely a cut scene. There wasn't really
anything playable in the giraffe moment
in the game. It was a cut scene that you watched
as television. And I didn't see a reason
to not repeat it perfectly because I thought
it was perfect. And if I don't need to do
any of the adaptation tricks and magic and whatever
things we do to get it from this medium
to this medium, why would I? The giraffe scene, to me,
was always about... Joel seeing that Ellie
was going to be okay. That she was still in there. Because when you are a parent
and you see your child hurt, one of the lies
that fear tells you is, "It will ever be thus." So you panic and you begin
to worry about the future. And what, "Is she going
to be okay? Is she going to just end up
spiraling into misery? Is she going to end up
killing herself?" These are the things
that happen, like, within the blink
of a parental eye. And then he sees this,
and he's like, "She's still in there.
She's going to be okay." And what I like about
where we go next, and it was the same
in the game was, "Hey, you know,
we don't have to actually go any further.
So we can stop here." TROY: This is interesting. I think the mark
of a good scene is when two people can look
at the scene and see
two different things. CRAIG: Interesting.
Now, what do you see? TROY: For me, as Joel-- And I remember shooting this
so well, and what spawns
that parental moment within Joel is him wanting
to show her something that is pure and innocent. And to me,
one of the most unsung, maybe even unnoticed,
lines of Ellie. He introduces her to
something pure and innocent, and she meets it
with the profane. -She says, "So fucking cool."
-CRAIG: "So fucking cool." Which we did exactly the way
you did it, Ashley. TROY: Unintentional. But to me, that is
an Ellie moment. And that's where
it's so connected. But to me, there's a sadness
in Joel of realizing that the innocence is gone and that she is
forever changed. That to me is why he says,
"We don't have to do this." NEIL: That is the opposite. CRAIG: It's interesting
how wrong you are. (LAUGHTER) CRAIG: That's fascinating
that you could be such a good Joel
and be so wrong. TROY:
Both of them are motivated. CRAIG: Let's-- All right,
Ashley, split the ticket. And she's like,
"You're both wrong." NEIL: No, no. I'll tell you
who's right. All right. Go for it, Ashley. ASHLEY: That moment is... I mean, there's a world
where it's both, in a way. That moment has always been
really sad to me. It's so beautiful, but it is sad because
it's always felt like that is the moment
in the game where I feel like Ellie,
the innocence is gone. Like, after all
of the winter section and sort of seeing like, "Oh yeah, the world can be
really awful. And I see that now." And so now, from that point on,
there's a lot less trust that she's going to have
with the world and with people,
which can be a good thing. But I feel like
with the giraffe-- Yeah, it's this moment of, "Yeah,
that's so fucking cool." Where it's not
the excitement that she probably
would have had before. It's just kind of like,
"Wow, that's fucking cool." I don't know. It's always
just felt kind of sad to me. Like, "Yeah, I see there's some cool parts
in the world, but..." NEIL: I mean, there's
definitely a sadness that Joel feels,
but from my perspective, it's closer to what
Craig was talking about. CRAIG: You're both wrong. (LAUGHTER) NEIL: Which is like, again,
I don't want to reduce this to a formula, but, you know,
when we construct this thing, it's like we look at,
architecturally, where we are
with the characters. It's like, she just had
this thing with David. We're showing the damage, the mental damage
it's had on her. And Joel is panicking
a little bit, and he's trying
to talk to her, he's trying to pull her
out of this funk. And he cannot,
no matter what he does. And he's even trying
to joke with her about blowing up the debris in front
of them instead of going-- -CRAIG: Playing boggle.
-TROY: Right. NEIL: And it's not him
that does it. It's this magical,
natural thing. And so much
of this show is, like, nature reclaiming
its domain. I remember the first time
I saw a giraffe. It's such
a beautiful creature, and it's so large. It's got these beautiful
black, giant eyes. Like, all of a sudden, this-- where this kid
has been gone, right, it's just been-- She brutalized it
out of her system by, like, destroying
David's face and everything
David has done to her. And all of a sudden,
you hear laughter and joy. CRAIG: "You gotta see this. Come on, come on,
come on, come on." NEIL: And that's
the light bulb moment for Joel that he hasn't
thought about, this moment was like, okay, he made
this promise to Tess. I'm going to take this kid
all the way. And all of a sudden,
it's like, "But for what? Why? She could lose
not only her life but her fucking--
her entire kind of, like, mental well-being. And that's when he says,
"We don't have to." JOEL:<i> Look, I don't know
exactly where this hospital is.</i> ELLIE:<i> Yeah, we'll find it.</i> JOEL:<i> Sure. It's just...</i> <i>Maybe there's nothing bad
out there, but so far</i> <i> there's always been
something bad out there.</i> ELLIE:<i>
You're still here though.</i> JOEL:<i> I know.</i> <i> I'm only saying
there's risk.</i> <i>You don't have to do this.</i> <i> I just--
I want you to know that.</i> ELLIE:<i> What do you mean?</i> <i> What else are we
supposed to do?</i> JOEL:<i> Nothing.
We just go back to Tommy's.</i> <i> We forget about
the whole damn thing.</i> ELLIE:<i> After all
we've been through.</i> <i> Everything I've done.</i> <i> It can't be for nothing.</i> CRAIG: The only concern
that he has at that moment, he's not thinking, like, "Oh, and when we get
to the hospital, they're gonna, you know,
need to kill you to get this thing out of
the middle of your brain." He's just saying, "There's always been
something bad out there between where we are now
and where we're going. There's always a chance that
something bad will happen." Maybe, already, he's like, "Maybe already
the world isn't worth it." NEIL: Yeah.
And what Ellie says, right? It's like, "After everything
I've done." Like the guilt that she feels from the sacrifice
that other people have made and the horrible things
she's committed. "I have to finish this. Afterwards, we'll do
whatever you want." -CRAIG: Right.
-NEIL: "But I must finish." CRAIG: And she says,
"I'll follow you anywhere you go,"
which I love. It's like, you know,
"Sheep ranch, the moon, wherever you want to go." Like, she's saying to him,
"I love you. And you're special to me." NEIL: And I have to do this. CRAIG:
"And we have to do this. No matter what." This rebirth leads us
to this other discussion where he reveals something. And this was something that we had set up
very carefully. And in episode three,
Joel tells the story of the scar on his head. And he says, "Yeah, somebody
shot at me and missed. And I shot back
and I missed." And here he tells Ellie,
"Okay, it was me. That was the same guy.
I tried to kill myself." And he's telling her this,
and she's like, "I know why
you're telling me this. You know, so time heals
all wounds." And he says, "It wasn't time
that did it." It's so gorgeous
and just true. And then the look
on Bella's face, as Ellie, realizing the enormity
of what he's saying and the fact that it hadn't
even occurred to her. That this whole time,
he's been this person that she looks up to, and this person
that saves her, and this person
that she wants to save because she wants
that father in her life. She needs that connection. But never did it occur
to her what she meant to him. It was always,
"What do you mean to me?" And when a child hears
something like that, it is overwhelming to them. And you can see her
struggling to process it. I think we wrote this
in the script, like, literally, "This is how they say
I love you." They don't say "I love you." How they say I love you
is they talk around it. So he's basically,
without saying, "I tried to commit suicide," he says, "I tried
to commit suicide." And then without saying
"I love you," she says, "Well, I'm glad
that that didn't work out." NEIL: This is the beauty of an adaptation
like this, right? Because in the game,
same location and a vulnerable moment
between Joel and Ellie is like, we see that Ellie stole
this picture of Sarah from Maria, and now she decides
to give it to Joel, and he accepts it
and starts talking about Sarah at this moment. And we, in our conversation,
we decided, like, "Yeah, the picture is not
as grounded as how the show
is turning out to be." Because there is
a whole backstory of Tommy went back
to their house and got it. So we decided
not to do the picture, and now we replace it
with this other moment. Like, we laid track for it
in episode three. And it's just
a different vi-- Like, again, like similar opening up
for each other and arriving
in a totally different way that works for this medium. CRAIG: Yeah.
And you just go, "Well... in a moment
like that, how could you not want
these two people to spend the rest
of their lives together?" And I think
45 seconds later, people are attempting
to take them apart forever. And I think
maybe other shows have-- "They hug." You know? And one of them says,
"I love you." In this show, they're like, "You know
what I'm in the mood for? -Shitty puns."
-(LAUGHTER) CRAIG:
If he's going to be like, "I want you
to read me puns," that is the two
of them saying, "I love you forever." NEIL: Well, I think
that both characters are a little allergic
to being overly sentimental. -CRAIG: Yes.
-ASHLEY: Yeah. CRAIG: Yes. But that is
maybe even more sentimental. NEIL: All right.
So, we're recording this now, right after episode three aired. And the response to that, which was overwhelmingly
positive and beautiful, but I've seen
some people say, "Filler," or, "What does this say
to the larger story?" Look at what Bill says
to Frank. Right? Which is like,
"You are my purpose." And this is even
a further expression of that thought. Again, when it's your child,
that is your purpose. That becomes your entire life. CRAIG: Yes. The notion
that there is no such thing as life without you. That I don't
even understand what life would be
without you. "It's a pointless life
without you" is set up in episode three. If Bill doesn't go through
this life with Frank, he's not going to write
that letter and leave the letter behind. And the letter is not going
to say to Joel, "Let me define you
for who you are. And let me point out
something I know that maybe
you haven't figured out. This is why we're here. We are here to protect
the person we love. And God help
any motherfuckers that get in our way
or stand in our way." Now, all these things that we've been
talking about, right? That all roads lead
to this moment. And so maybe the least
filler-y thing we did across this entire season
was the Bill and Frank story because it is the...
like I said, the skeleton key for everything that happens. NEIL: The beauty of--
Again, like, the structure
of these scenes and how they follow
one another is, like, the thing
that she needed the most. Right? It's not
him telling her a joke or giving her Chef Boyardee
or whatever he finds. It's him being vulnerable
with her and being honest with her. -And connecting with her.
-CRAIG: That's what does it. And what you will see
throughout this episode-- You can make a list
and check it off how many times, in an attempt
to connect with her before the moment
where he's honest. And then also later, after he has been
incredibly dishonest. Referencing their journey
to this point. "Chef Boyardee, remember? It's a five-hour hike.
We can do that. Remember?" There's a lot of, "Hey, we used to be pals,
and that was fun. And let's just go back
to what that was. Remember?" NEIL: "Hey, remember how
you wanted me to sing? -I'll do that for you."
-CRAIG: "Yeah, I'll do that. Remember I said
I was going to sing? I'll fix a guitar. I'll teach you how
to play guitar. Remember?" TROY: I have a question
for you, Craig, 'cause I've asked Neil this. What do you think
Ellie knows is going to happen once
she gets to the Fireflies? Is there any awareness
of the process, -in your mind?
-CRAIG: No. One of the reasons why, at the beginning
of episode six, or early on, Ellie tells Joel
that she tried to save Sam. And one of the things
that was important to get out there
between the two of them was that she didn't
really understand the science of it, nor would any 14-year-old
understand that. But also, Joel hasn't
contemplated or anticipated anything beyond,
I don't know, -they're just gonna--
-NEIL: Collect a sample. CRAIG: They're gonna
collect a sample, and they're gonna run it
through their machines. They're going
to do something. But at no point is he like, "Well, actually,
it didn't occur to me, but maybe they'll have to
murder you for it." Like, that was not
on the table. I don't think either one
of them anticipated that that was what
it was going to take. Because if that's what
it was going to take, I think Joel would have
figured out a way to maybe -just never get there.
-NEIL: Right. There's no way he goes on
this journey knowing that. And you can see the shock
on his face when Marlene tells him. MARLENE:<i>
You are the one person</i> <i> I never wanted
to be in debt to...</i> <i> but I owe you.</i> <i> We all owe you.</i> JOEL:<i> Just take me to her.</i> MARLENE:<i> I can't.</i> <i> She's being prepped
for surgery.</i> JOEL:<i> What surgery?</i> CRAIG: It takes him
a second or two, and then it's just, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Nope. No." NEIL: "Find someone else." CRAIG:
"Find someone else. No." NEIL: You can sacrifice
another kid. -Not my kid.
-CRAIG: Not this one. TROY: What do you think
brought Marlene to accept that decision,
but Joel does not? CRAIG:
Marlene didn't raise Ellie. Marlene did
what she said she would do, which is
she would keep Ellie safe. She would find somebody
to bring her up and keep her safe. Check, check, did it. But Marlene is not there
day in and day out. Marlene is not repeatedly
saving Ellie's life. Ellie has never
saved Marlene's life. But by the time
we get to here, that's what Joel and Ellie
have done with each other in every way you can imagine
saving a life. TROY: A lot of miles
between the two of them. NEIL: But Marlene, also, her personality is
she's a leader that can make
the hard sacrifices for the betterment
of humanity. She's constantly sending
Fireflies to their death. People that she's
very close to. TROY: This is her purpose. NEIL: And I think that's--
that's who she is. CRAIG:
You have to be utilitarian if you're trying
to achieve a goal. So, back in episode five, Perry, played by
our beloved Jeffrey Pierce, he tells Kathleen, "You're the only one
who changed things. Not your brother,
who was the idealist. You, the utilitarian,
you changed things. You're the reason
we're free." If Marlene is going
to somehow free America and try and get back
some semblance of democracy, then she has to be
a utilitarian, and this is the trolley problem
writ large. People have been talking
about this forever. And the truth is
that if your goal is to save as many human lives
as possible, if that is what
you believe is the morally correct thing
to do, then Marlene is making
the right choice. TROY: Break some eggs. CRAIG: But that is why the trolley problem
is a problem. It's-- You know what I mean? And people
have been debating the end of<i> The Last of Us</i> since it came out
ten years ago. And I can only assume that people
are debating it now. I know we sound innocent because we haven't
gotten there yet. There may be riots
in the streets. -I don't know.
-(LAUGHTER) CRAIG: Um,
but people will debate this. And people may look
to this podcast for some sort of answer. And an answer
will not be forthcoming because the truth is, you can make an excellent
argument either way. -NEIL: Well, we debated.
-CRAIG: Of course. NEIL: Even as we were working,
we were debating whether it's the right thing
or not, and... CRAIG: It's beyond right or not. It comes down to... there is an instinct
within all of us to do it this way, and there's an instinct
within all of us to do it this way. And there's a lot
of discourse about-- that tries to rationalize why one decision would be
better than another. And I have no problem
with people engaging it. It's kind of fun to do
as a party game. But the reality is,
it's a dilemma. And the point of a dilemma
is it ain't easy, and there isn't
one right answer. And I can make
an outstanding argument that Joel should have done
exactly what he did and said exactly
what he said to Ellie after. And I can make
an outstanding argument that he shouldn't have done
any of that. And that's kind of
the point, that as flawed human beings, this is one of the prices
we pay for loving people. Loving people tends
to trump simple morality. And that's where Joel
finds himself with Ellie. NEIL: Well, yeah.
Intellectually, you can make the argument, "This choice would save
the most people." But this is not
an intellectual exercise. ASHLEY: I don't care
about those people. I don't even know them. NEIL: When you're a parent.
Just a quick anecdote 'cause when I was working on
the story of<i> The Last of Us,</i> I was talking with my dad. You know, we're from Israel, so steeped
in Israeli politics. There was this guy
that was kidnapped, Gilad Shalit,
an Israeli soldier. He was held hostage
for several years. And to get him back, Israel traded hundreds
of prisoners in return, some of which were tried
for pretty horrible crimes. So, I asked my dad, like, "Do you think
they did the right thing?" And my dad goes, "Are you asking me as
the prime minister of Israel or as the kid's father? Because I can give you
two very different answers. As the prime minister
of Israel, I think it was a mistake
that made Israel weaker. As the kid's dad, I would have traded
the entire country for my son." ASHLEY: Yeah. Yeah. CRAIG: And that is sort of
what it comes down to. And we actually need
that instinct. So, human instincts
are not perfect. Human instincts are designed
to protect your reproduction and the selfish gene
and all that. But they don't always
fire off in ways that make sense. The story I remember
from my early fatherhood, my first kid was
maybe two months old, and my wife
and I are wheeling this baby down the street.
Finally asleep. Finally. And an unmuffled
Harley Davidson -goes riding by.
-(LAUGHTER) CRAIG: So loud. Baby is now awake,
screaming. And I honestly wanted
to murder him. I'm not saying figuratively. I'm saying for a moment,
I was like, "I'm going to run
down the street. He's gonna hit a red light,
and I'm going to get him. And I'm gonna pull him
off that bike. I'm gonna kill him." Because he woke my baby up? One of the powers of love is that it will motivate
your hand to violence. And the really
interesting thing is, who do you root for
in a situation like that? Because I know when I played
the game for the first time, and I was playing as Joel,
but I understood, you know, look, this is something
that Joel is doing. It's not necessarily
something I would choose to do. But what would I do,
and am I rooting for him? That became very complicated
for me. And in the end, I think what I was so struck
by when I played the game, and why the thought
of adapting it was so exciting to me, was I felt a lot of things
all at once. And that is hard for people
to quantify. It makes people upset. I think it makes people
uncomfortable. I think people want
to concretize the choices and justify the choices
one way or another because it's comforting
to them. But I would suggest
to people that they ought to sit in the discomfort
and uncertainty of the choices
that were made because that's
kind of the point. NEIL: What was fun is when
we were making the game, we would play test the game. And usually we do that
to make sure that, like, people aren't getting stuck, and what we're trying
to convey needs to convey. And then at the end, one of the questions
we would ask if they finished the game
is like, "What did you think
of Joel's choice in this moment?" If the player was not
a parent, it was 50/50 where they-- like they say,
"Oh, I think Joel was the villain.
That was the twist." Or like, "No, I totally
agree with what he did." If the player was a parent, a hundred percent,
with zero exceptions, -they agreed with Joel.
-CRAIG: Yeah. -ASHLEY: Whoa!
-NEIL: Zero exceptions. TROY: We have one of
the best action sequences of the entire season
in this moment. This was something
that obviously, Neil, you helped craft
in the game. What was important to you about carrying that over
into the show? And Craig, what were you
the most excited about adapting from that
into the show? NEIL: I remember
our conversation about it was that Joel would be-- anybody that stands
in his way is dead. And even if they turn
their back to him, they're dead. We eventually spared
the two nurses in the room. TROY:
That's one of my questions because all data points
to the opposite. NEIL: But there's
a good reason for that. Like, they're not armed, and they're terrified
for their lives, and he didn't see them
as a threat. Everybody else, even as they're, like,
crawling away, they're on his path
towards that operating room. He is not sparing
any of them. And the other thing is,
like, it's interesting you describe it
as an action sequence. And in some ways, it is. Like, Craig and I are
huge fans of<i> Unforgiven,</i> which is a Western
that has all this restraint. It deals with violence and has very little violence
until the very end. And this was like
our version of that. But it was important
not to treat it as adrenaline-pumping
shootout. -TROY:<i> John Wick.</i>
-NEIL: It's sad. Like, what you see
this guy has to do is sad, and the music
is reflecting that. It's not meant
to glorify this moment. It just shows
he's just turned off whatever part of his brain that sees these other people
as human. And they're just an obstacle
to get to Ellie. TROY: Pedro, this is
one of his best moments because to play an emotion
is one challenge, to play crying,
to play angry, whatever it is,
whatever that looks like, however we play
that emotion. To play empty is
truly remarkable. CRAIG: He's dissociating. The rules in my head
that we were following were simply, if someone had a gun,
they had to die. Not because
he was angry at them, because they were armed,
but because, let's say the guy
puts his gun down and surrenders, let's say
Joel doesn't shoot him, which you would think'd be
the noble thing to do. It's probably
the honorable thing to do to avoid a war crime trial. You walk away, that guy picks his gun
back up and shoots you in the back,
Ellie dies. At this point,
he is utilitarian. He is entirely about a simple,
utilitarian decision. It's just the opposite
utilitarianism of Marlene's. "I will kill
all of these people even if, you know,
they put their gun down because the only thing
I care about is saving Ellie." Those nurses aren't--
They can't kill Ellie. They can't kill him. The surgeon comes at him
with a knife. Boom. Doesn't even think about it. Doesn't even look
at the guy. He no-look shoots him because he's no longer
concerned with anybody else's humanity. And what we are
also seeing here is the manifestation
of something that Maria warned
Ellie about back in our sixth episode because Maria has heard
from Tommy what Joel has done. All Ellie ever heard was his nonresponse
to her question, "Did you kill
innocent people?" But what Maria knows
from Tommy is exactly what they did, which is--
was probably very cruel because Joel is capable
of dissociating. And that is something
that people who have experienced
severe trauma can do. And the music choice here
was incredibly important. We went around and around. I mean, there was
all sorts of versions. And the first versions,
as you might expect, had sort of, you know,
more action-y music or darker music. And it was making me
all crazy. And so, I do-- A lot of times when
there's a music problem, what do I do?
I go back to Gustavo, and I just start listening
and listening and listening. And I'm like, "Wait, what if we took the saddest
music he's written?" ♪ ("THE LAST OF US"
BY GUSTAVO SANTAOLALLA PLAYS) ♪ NEIL: Which is the music
that plays at the hospital when you're carrying Ellie
out of the operating room. CRAIG: Exactly,
and that's what, like we said, emotionally, there is no difference
to him between, "I'm killing these people"
and "I'm carrying her out." It's all connected. And the heartbreak of it is
we're watching somebody burn his own soul
to save the person he loves. TROY: There's a moment that, going back to that episode
where he talks with Tommy, and Tommy says,
"There were other ways, we just weren't any good
at them." And for me watching this,
this is Joel, as you say, burning his own soul,
realizing, "This is the one thing
that I'm good at." CRAIG: And man,
he really is good at it. And we were careful. And this really comes out
more in the editing, I think,
than in anything else because when you're shooting
action sequences, it's very odd. It's a lot of like
jumping around and "Bang! Bang!" And the blanks are going,
"Pop! Pop!" And then the cork hits
are going, "Pi-too-wee!" And it's very nuts
and bolts-y, like, how you're doing it. But in editing this
with Tim Good, we wanted it
to be less about a kind of
physical competence and more about
a mental competence. Everybody else
is freaking out, and he's not. It's that Hannibal Lecter thing. He ate her face and his heart rate never
went above 68 or whatever. It's just,
when Joel dissociates and enters this mode, he is simply calmer
than everyone else. He has no fear. He's just doing
what needs to be done. NEIL: There's a beautiful
conversation in<i> Unforgiven</i> where he's like, "Clint Eastwood is not
the fastest shot, he's just the calmest shot." Like when he gets
to that moment, he doesn't panic. CRAIG: Yes. The journalist
played by Saul Rubinek says, you know,
"Who did you shoot first? An experienced gunfighter
will always go for the other experienced
gunfighter first." And he's like, "Yeah,
I got lucky in the order. But then again, I've always been lucky when
it comes to killing folks." (LAUGHTER) CRAIG: And that's--
that's kind of his way of sort of expressing
this thing of just like... I don't know. In this moment, Joel shows us that he's got
that same thing. NEIL: It's just--
It's such an interesting-- Like when you search
your own feelings, when you're watching
this sequence, you're rooting for Joel. Like, we're talking about it
kind of with a smile. Like, we're excited
for what he's doing. And at the same time, think about
who he's killing. He's killing people
that have dedicated their lives to help mankind in this fucked-up world. And he's murdering them
left and right -to get to this girl.
-CRAIG: Yeah. And they are -following orders.
-NEIL: Yeah. CRAIG: Half the people
he's killing probably don't even know
that there's a girl, and-- They don't even know
anything about it. Like, they're just there
that day to, you know,
because their friend was-- had a cold
and they had to sub in. It was like... It's why
we show the bodies. You know? It's important. NEIL: Anybody that's
a threat, he kills them. And then at the very end, there's one exception,
which is Marlene, -who puts her gun down.
-CRAIG: Yeah. NEIL: He shot her.
She already can't chase him. He's got the car, and he still goes back
for her because he can't even
take the chance that she will regroup, change her mind,
and come after him. And that's the part
where I think when people sometimes
ask me like, "Do you think Joel did the right thing
or the wrong thing?" Like, for me, I always say, "I hope I would have
the willpower that Joel has
in that same situation." I don't think I would. Except for the Marlene part. To me, that's the part
where he goes too far. TROY:
Do you think that's true? He goes,
"You'd just come after her." As opposed to... NEIL: Well,
he's probably correct, in that we've seen Marlene. Like, the sacrifices
she's willing to make. This isn't going
to stop her. CRAIG: Yeah.
This is why, again, we recreated that moment
one for one because it was
so powerful to watch. Not just that moment. We recreated
the entire editing pattern because it was
so powerful to watch when I played the game. Marlene says,
"Just let me go." Well, that was
her mistake because-- because what
she's saying is, "I might actually survive
this gunshot wound you've given me
in my belly." Therefore, no. 'Cause if you do live,
and he's right, -she will come after Ellie.
-NEIL: Yeah. TROY: There is the moment
of doubt, too, when you just see
Joel in the truck. CRAIG: The way it laid out
in the game was so... terrifying, in a weird way, to me. And it made
his conversation with Ellie in that car so much worse, and therefore better. And Pedro did both sides
of that gorgeously because you see him
holding Ellie, and he's like--
the look on his face is, "Fuck, she's right.
She's right." And the thing
that Marlene says to him that sort of seals it is, "You know, 'cause I think
she would want to do what's right,
and you know it." Like Marlene goes,
"Wait a second, I'm not explaining shit
to you that you don't get already. You already know
you're doing something bad and that if she had
a choice, she would say, 'Absolutely sacrifice me
to save the world.'" NEIL: But what Marlene
doesn't know is that he's been
in this moment before. Right? Holding his daughter
in front of someone that is trying
to make the call for what's best
for humanity of like, trying to prevent
this thing from spreading. And he's not going
to fail again. CRAIG: Not this time. And then on the other side
of that cut, seeing him in the car alone, you can be forgiven
if you thought he had-- he had left Ellie
in the hospital with Marlene
because that is a perfectly reasonable thing
to do. And the expression
on his face is incredibly ambiguous
until we hear her moving. And we are very close
to the game from this point
to the end because, well, endings matter,
and the ending is correct. And we do not change
things that are correct. TROY: We find ourselves
on the last hike. CRAIG: Yeah. JOEL:<i> Look, sometimes
things don't work out</i> <i> the way we hope.</i> <i> You can feel like...</i> <i>like you've come to an end.</i> <i> And you don't know
what to do next.</i> <i>But if you just keep going,</i> <i> you find something new
to fight for.</i> <i> -And maybe that's not--</i>
-ELLIE:<i> Swear to me.</i> <i> Swear to me
that everything you said</i> <i>about the Fireflies is true.</i> JOEL:<i> I swear.</i> TROY: It was something
that I remember when we were shooting
the game, coming to you, Neil, and when we first saw
the script for the last scene, I remember looking
at you and saying, "Are you afraid that people
are going to hate this?" (LAUGHTER) TROY: And you said,
"No. I'm just-- I don't care if they hate it
or if they love it. I just don't want them
to be ambivalent." And to you, that would have
been the mark of failure is if they didn't feel
anything. But first, I don't think
I've ever asked you this, Ashley. Do you believe
that the "Okay..." is it her believing the lie, or is it her accepting
the lie? ASHLEY: I don't feel like
it's either. You know,
and this also sets up the rest of their story
in<i> Part II.</i> I think she sees
that he's lying. And the "Okay" is like,
"All right, we're done. You're not being truthful
with me, and I can't trust you. Like, I love you,
but this was one thing that my life
would have mattered, and I could have maybe
made a difference somehow. And that's taken away
from me now. And like, what is my--
Who am I now? Like, I don't know-- This person that I've gone
on this journey with, that I care so much about, is choosing to lie
about something so huge." And she-- Like, Ellie... Like, her bullshit detector
is the best. She knows he's lying. -Like, she-- she feels it.
-NEIL: She is pretty smart. ASHLEY: She doesn't know
the extent of it. But something's off. So it's like, it's not
choosing to believe the lie, or it's just like, "Okay, the rest
of our relationship is going to be
a little different." CRAIG: I feel,
watching Pedro and Bella, the same thing that I felt
watching you and Troy. And that is, I'm not sure
if Ellie is saying, "Okay. You're lying to me,
and I'm just going to hand wave it away
and move on." Or if she's saying... ASHLEY:
I don't think she'd do that. CRAIG: ..."Okay.
You're lying to me, and we're now forever
changed in a negative way." Or is she saying,
"You're lying, but you just told me
you're not lying, and it's incredibly
important to you, and I love you. And I'm going to say,
'Okay, I'm just gonna decide to not dwell on the lie.'" Or is she so terrified that what she's suggesting
happened happened, that she wants
to believe him because the alternative
is terrifying to her. It can be
any of those things. ASHLEY: Absolutely. CRAIG:
But that's why I love it. I mean, for a guy that was constantly
calling Neil, saying, "What if Bill and Frank
had a life together? What if Sam were deaf? What if we--
It was Kansas City. What if? What if?
What if? What if?" And this time,
I was like, "No, no, no. And then at the end,
he's going to say the thing, and then she's going
to say, "Okay," because that's correct." TROY: For me,
the setup to the... "Swear to me
that everything you said..." is the moment before that,
the beat before it. When, in the game,
Joel says... "I struggled for
a long time with surviving. And what I learned is
that no matter what, you keep finding
something to fight for." And he panics and throws the only thing
he knows to be true, which is... "No matter what,
you just keep finding something new to fight for." In this, he says,
"If you just keep going, you'll find something new
to fight for." Tell me the differentiation.
I'd love to know. CRAIG: I think it was
maybe just a flow thing. But also, if there was
one thing that we wanted to maybe pull on thread-wise that led us to adjust
the language slightly, it was that we wanted Joel to be engaging
in rhetorical bluster. That when you're caught,
you start rattling. You start rambling.
You start going. And he's entering
this kind of platitude cloud that will tell you to, "Hey, you just buck
up there, kiddo, and you'll find
something better. And don't worry about
those people who died, and we have a whole life
ahead of us. And you'll see,
everything will be fine." Parents love to tell kids that everything is going
to be fine because parents need
everything to be fine. ASHLEY: Yeah, Ellie's like,
"Don't adult me right now." CRAIG: Exactly.
And that's what I-- Bella does
this great thing, like, when Joel interrupts,
"None of that's on you." And she's like,
"I know, like... Shut the fuck up. I'm trying
to say something important." And then he starts talking. And I remember talking
with Bella on that mountain. I was like, "You don't hear
a goddamn word he says from that point. At that point,
all you're doing is like, 'Do I say it? Do I say it?
Do I say it? Do I say it?'" And then, finally, she just
has enough of Joel's talking and just says, "Swear to me. Stop talking. I wasn't listening
to any of that. All the lead-up I just did was me dancing
around something. The dancing is over. Swear to me that you didn't
kill a bunch of people and lie to me." And that's when Pedro,
as Joel, and you as Joel, do this kind of
amazing thing, which is to lie exactly
the way human beings lie. There is no like... "I-- I swear!" No. When we lie,
we just lie. "I swear."
Right in her eyes. Didn't look away.
Very important. Very important
to not look away. Looked right at her.
"I swear." NEIL: Earlier, right,
you were-- Troy, you were asking like, does Ellie know
what would happen to her at the hospital? I don't think
she knew before. But I think
because of the lie, -she knew after.
-CRAIG AND ASHLEY: Yes. NEIL: And that, to me, is,
again, how smart Ellie is. 'Cause like, again, when
you're asking Craig like, "What could it be?" And I agree with each one
of those interpretations, each one of those
is probably true to some degree. And she's probably going
through all of them right in that moment. But none of
those interpretations is she believes the lie. CRAIG: Exactly. -NEIL: That is not on the table.
-ASHLEY: No. She's so smart, she knows. And she's already doing
the math of like, "If that did happen,
and he did take me out, why would he do that? Oh, it's 'cause my life
was on the line." And that's why
she's rattling off all these people that died. And she's trying to get
to a point of like, "This was meant to be." And again, this gets so much into, like,
where the story goes. CRAIG:
That's a great point though. Like, even if
what she's saying when she says "Okay" is, "You know what,
I choose to believe you. And let's just move on
with this." It was,
"I choose to believe you." Not, "I believe you." There was never a thing
where she was like, "Oh, well, okay, well,
if he says that he swears, -then it's got to be true."
-(OVERLAPPING CHATTER) NEIL: There were raiders,
and we had to leave. CRAIG: That ain't
the thing that happened. So it's one of
the other 4,000 things, or all of them
in combination. But that's why the ending
of this game is so great, and that's why
I was so happy to be able to adapt it. And that's why, for all the fun we have
changing things, there are times
where you just don't because you change
the end of<i> The Last of Us,</i> you're a fucking idiot. I don't know
how else to put it. -(LAUGHTER)
-NEIL: I agree. TROY: It is a very bold way
to do a season finale. But if you've taught us
anything, both of you, throughout
this entire season, is just because
you've played the game, doesn't necessarily mean
you know what's coming. What are you
most excited about, at least hinting towards, for season two
with the story? NEIL: You can expect us
to repeat the same process. CRAIG: Yes. NEIL: Which is
we will look at what made that story special and what is the soul
of that story. And that needs
to remain intact. And then, the moment-to-moment
beats and characters, they might stay the same,
they might change. We will do what needs
to happen to that story as it transfers from
one medium to another. CRAIG: And we will also
take advantage of the freedom
we have in television that wasn't there
in the game. Specifically, the advantage
of changing perspective. So, we will use
what we can use in a new medium
to tell that story. And we will go through the same process
of adaptation. It's us again,
and there will be Pedro, and there will be Bella,
and we have-- ASHLEY:
And there will be blood. CRAIG:
And there will be blood. ASHLEY:
There's something that-- and I don't know if
this will ever transfer over to the game from the show. But in watching
the episodes, and how the fungus
is a little different, and how where
you step on things, and it can
attract hundreds. CRAIG: Yes. ASHLEY: When I watched that,
I was like, "I want to play that
because that's terrifying." NEIL: Yeah, that's exactly
what I told Craig when he pitched it, I'm
like, "You motherfucker." ASHLEY: "You motherfucker,
why didn't I think of that?" CRAIG: And that, I will say,
is something that-- ASHLEY: (GROANS)
I want to play that. CRAIG: ...I think
we will be exploring further in the next season. I think
this first time around, we were learning
so much about how to create the Infected and how to televise them
in a way that was exciting and didn't seem goofy
or weird or artificial, or-- And I think
we figured out that. And I think
this next season, the interconnectivity
of them, and the risk of stepping
on the wrong thing, that stuff is going
to be brought forward more for sure. ASHLEY: 'Cause that whole
underground network is real. It's so cool. NEIL: One other thing that's
kind of related to<i> Part II,</i> but I think it's just worth pointing out
for this episode is like, obviously,
there's a character named Abby
that's very important. But the brilliant woman who
played her, Laura Bailey, makes a cameo -in this episode.
-CRAIG AND ASHLEY: Yes! NEIL:
She is one of the nurses in the operating room. CRAIG: Yes. Laura Bailey. I mean,
this is how cool Laura is. I'm like, "Look, we're
down to the final days of our production. It'll be so awesome
to get you in there. Here's what I got.
What I got is a nurse. But the nurse is wearing
a surgical mask." And she's like,
"That's even better. I'll just be like
this secret cameo that no one knows about,"
and now everyone does. So, Laura flies to Calgary
and hangs out with us, and puts the mask on, and-- NEIL: So, she played one
of the nurses in the game in the operating room. That was the first time
I worked with her. And she also, I think,
played the reporter in the beginning
of the story. -She, like, played like--
-TROY: Her and Travis both. NEIL: Yeah, like a bunch
of different characters. And I loved what
she did so much, I'm like, "You're going to be
one of our main characters -when we go to the sequel."
-CRAIG: She's great. NEIL: She sent me
the funniest picture because I couldn't be there
for the shoot. But with the doctor
dead on the floor, in a puddle of blood,
she stands over him, smiling,
giving the peace sign. And I laughed so hard
when she sent me that. (LAUGHTER) TROY: Wherever you guys decide
to go with season two, whether it be to the moon
or to a sheep ranch, we will follow you -wherever you go.
-CRAIG: Thank you. TROY: And that's where
we're going to leave the conversation for now. This has been the podcast
for HBO's<i> The Last of Us.</i> Thank you again
to Craig Mazin, to Neil Druckmann, and especially
to Ashley Johnson. CRAIG: Thank you, Troy, -for being a fantastic host.
-ASHLEY: Thank you, Troy. TROY: It has been my pleasure, -and thank you to everyone.
-NEIL: You've been okay, Troy. -TROY: I've been okay.
-NEIL: Thank you very much. TROY: Thank you to everyone
who has participated in these conversations
with the podcast. Thank you for watching
the show. We hope these stories
and this conversation has moved you equally. Stream episodes
of the HBO original series <i>The Last of Us</i> on HBO Max. Please like and follow
HBO's<i> The Last of Us</i> on Instagram,
Twitter, and Facebook. And remember, when
you're lost in the darkness, look for the light. ♪ (SYNTH MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ NARRATOR: This is the official
companion podcast for HBO's<i> The Last of Us,</i>
hosted by Troy Baker. Our producers are
Elliott Adler, Bria Mariette,
and Noah Camuso. Darby Maloney is
our editor. The show is mixed
by Hannis Brown. Our executive producers are Gabrielle Lewis
and Bari Finkel. Production music is
courtesy of HBO. And you can watch episodes
of<i> The Last of Us</i> on HBO Max.
