Ep 50 | Dialogues on Social Justice, Pt 1 w/ Prof. Craig Hawkins | Redeeming Truth

hey john here before we jump into the podcast i just want to let you know that this podcast is so helpful and informative there are some truth nuggets that drop in this that are so helpful to understand a wide-ranging uh group of subjects so professor craig hawkins is a world expert in post-modern philosophy as well as a theologian and he's been an elder in churches that he's been a part of he also has had a a over 30-year radio call in ministry so he is incredibly knowledgeable on the subject of the social justice movement and the philosophy and theologies that have had that have spawned from that movement so i just want to let you know that you are in for a treat because you're going to get historical backgrounds you're going to get some philosophy you're going to get some theology you're going to get but but the whole goal is that your world view is shaped and understood by the script informed by the scriptures so that when you hear these things coming out of our culture coming out of coming out even from pulpit sadly that you are able to recognize it for what it is you're able to discern truth from error so i just want to welcome you to this podcast and i'm so excited that you clicked on it i hope you've got a pen ready i hope you got some paper because this is some incredibly helpful material thanks for watching [Music] hi redeemer family thank you for joining me for another episode of redeeming truth this is a exciting episode for me i get to interview one of my favorite people one of my all-time favorite professors somebody who has had an absolutely massive impact on my life and there are things maybe you'll hear in this conversation that you're going to go wait i've heard john say that well now you would hear where it came from and so before i get into that i and at this point i just want to make sure that you understand that as we do this podcast it is critical for you to do two things it's critical for you to subscribe to our podcast you just click the little button that says subscribe to our redeemer bible church page you would click on that and then you would also click that little bell that allows you to get notifications that that lets you know whenever we post a new video it goes into your notifications on your phone your computer whatever and then that way you can stay current on everything that we're doing so today i'm with craig hawkins he is a professor at trinity law school in california and for the past 30 plus years he has taught everything from the bible to apologetics theology jurisprudence and in particular what we're going to be talking about today has to do with critical race theory and social justice this is a movement that has gained an incredible amount of traction within christianity in a very short amount of time um where it's become very popular it's been growing for decades but now it's really hit the scene in a very strong way over the past couple years and so i just want to be able to help you what has happened over the past couple months is that i get i talk to parents who are saying to me you know um tears in their eyes i've lost my son i've lost my daughter to this movement we can't even have conversations we're not even going to have thanksgiving or christmas together because there's so much tension over this and i don't even know what happened one day they were great and they went away to college or we homeschooled them for for all their whole life and then they go away to college and now they're back and it is vitriolic it's it's there's anger there's guilt and shame and and the and the the consistent pattern is i'm losing or i've lost my child and so the the heart behind this podcast is really to help people it's really to help the people who go to our church but really help anybody who's going to watch this navigate through these ideas from a biblical framework and so craig as we get started today what kind of qualifies you to talk on these issues well thanks john it's a pleasure to be with you and to be able to talk about these issues what qualifies me is that i have graduate degrees really in about five different areas including philosophy cultural studies apologetics what have you i've also been teaching for over 30 years at the graduate level and my i would say mentor was a mentor but my advisor for my phd work one of the schools i attended was a marxist he had a doctorate in philosophy and in theology he was into liberation theology and was teaching this type of stuff so i've i was i was exposed to this stuff 20 25 years ago and had a professor who was really involved in this and also i've taught as you've mentioned jurisprudence and jurisprudence one of the areas is called critical race theory that comes out of critical theory so i've been teaching this for quite a while teaching about it not teaching and a sense of that i invite this but teaching about this for quite a while also i teach and have a background in epistemology which is part of philosophy theory of knowledge what you know how you can know it so in particular besides my theological degrees and apologetic degrees degrees background in classical history and philosophy but in particular because of the epistemology and jurisprudence is where i was exposed to this and have studied this for quite a while so this is not new to me it's new to many individuals but i've been studying and been exposed to this many many many years ago so for me that's why i wanted to get you on this podcast because you have not only read the books but you were in the classrooms where where people were teaching this where students were embracing it and promoting it correct and and i do want to say something before i forget many christians they mean well but they have this idea that they raise their kids and a lot of them take ownership of that but then they send them off to college and their good done but i would say you're not done in fact not just if you send them to a separate university so-called but if you tend to send them to a christian university many christian schools are imbibing the stuff teaching this stuff as well and so i would say parents need to continue to have an active role in the formation of their children not just through high school but even through college and grad school i would want to be having conversations with them as i do with one of my children my daughter who's in college what are you learning what are you teaching what are they teaching you that is and have a continued interaction as we're going to point out you don't have to be an expert in all this stuff you just need to be aware of it in some of the buzz words in the vocabulary and then you can consult someone who is knowledgeable about this but but this idea that were done in high school i i totally disagree with that's helpful and that's that's going to get to my very last question today is what would what else would you say to parents but before we get there i want to i want to ask you how did we get here as a society in general where did all of this come from this stuff has been it's been being taught at the university and college lab at collegiate level for quite a while this goes quite back to the 60s maybe i'll give a brief history if you want and i i'm truncating that just to get to the point there's a jumping off point and it'll help to have an understanding but but this stuff has been being taught and critical theories we're going to see has multiple meanings depending on the discipline but there are some things that has in common but what happened was long story short with the rise of marxism the thoughts of karl marx dialectical materialism and the idea of class warfare and the protalitariate versus the bourgeois if you will this came in many many nations including russia the former soviet union if you will and of course they had the revolution in 1917 and embraced this stuff various forms of it and then in 1918 after world war one communism was also marxism i'm just going to use those interchangeably there's differences but for to make it easier on myself and so people don't i don't constantly have to qualify things i'm just going to use them as interchangeable but there's some key differences but they're clearly related to each other as well but many people to the point where were dumbfounded why why marxism like communism didn't take over in germany in 1918. there were certainly marxists there and people who were advocating for communism and so many people were disappointed that is marxist they were actually disappointed that the revolution did not continue into places like germany and so there was the attempt to understand why many intellectuals just couldn't figure out why what was wrong with the people why didn't the people embrace this the idea is as soon as you get the skinny on capitalism you see how bad it is you would you would just automatically embrace marxism i mean it's a no-brainer to them so why were the people so recalcitrant why did they continue with capitalism which is this evil and not embrace the liberating spirit of marxism and communism and so eventually in the early 20s 1923-ish there was a organization founded called the institute for social research in germany in frankfurt became associated with the university of frankfurt the frankfurt school that's called and they were talking about marxism and whatnot then through a change of leadership in 1930 an individual named hulkheimer became the head of the institute and changed the emphasis not just studying classical marxism but what were the social dynamics what were the underpinning underlying factors that kept people enslaved i'll use some very strong vocabulary enslaved to capitalism why didn't they just throw off the yoke of capitalism and be emancipated be liberated these are their terms by marxism by communism and so they wanted to look at uh that is horkheimer then gentlemen named marcusa also ardorno and then eric fromm a psychologist joined them as well among others and their work was to understand the sociological cultural dynamics and factors that the underpinning presuppositions that kept people enslaved in capitalism what were the factors that entrenched them and kept them from coming to this acceptance this embracing of marxism that's the key idea and then they wrote a lot of works uh they got they had to leave germany because of adolf hitler and the rise of nazism but they come to schools like new york university columbia berkeley obviously very high powered schools and then eventually they go back but that's the origins of this so it was looking at the presuppositions that it enslaved people and it's looking at one of the key concepts is class warfare uh and again there's always other terms like alienation and alphabet i could talk about and i'm not going to go there it gets just too heavy the point is they want to look at this stuff and then stuff gets picked up in america by a number of intellectuals including someone named duncan kennedy who teaches at harvard he buys into this and he switches from critical theory which that term was coined by bulkheimer in a famous essay in the 1930s critical theory critical theory basically evolves or devolves into critical race theory so critical theory is based upon what's called neo-marxism the new marxism it's not just classical marxism and all about economics but it's the cultural dynamics we've been talking about psychology sociology anthropology bringing all that to bear so marxism itself can't do the job it needs contributions from other disciplines like sociology so they take that and then neo-friendism it's not the old freud if you know the stages of development allegedly from freud it would even be eventually influenced by a guy named jacques lacan dies in 1980 but anyways from heavily influences this and his view of psychology getting to the point so duncan kennedy picks this up and he brings it into the legal community and he's a professor at harvard he's teaching that at harvard so obviously one of the high-powered laws law schools and then this morse into what's called critical race theory so there's a number of critical theories and one of them is critical race theory uh probably the most famous student would be derek bell and he picks this up and develop it develops it and runs with it and develops what we call technically critical race theory real quickly again then his most famous student was kimberly williams crenshaw kimberly crenshaw picks this up and she develops even what's called intersectionality so the standard books i've got a bunch of them here you can't necessarily see them but i've got a ton of books if it matters that i've taught from and used and whatnot and read and all that good stuff and so her views continue on bell's view with more push because the term intersectionality this becomes a very very uh form of of jurisprudence but it's it's not just that it's it's actually picked up it's actually picked up and goes into cultural studies literature studies english studies what have you so it moves out of the legal field and it spreads into again the social sciences and literature studies to where it today it dominates in universities it's it's up there with post-modernism i mean basically you're you're you're a young person or if you're going to college you're not going to get through college or university without getting exposed to this in one way shape or form of it and even in so-called conservative christian schools this stuff still is picked up it's just assumed to be true and any educated intelligent 21st century person needs to know this so it's been being taught at a massive level in our colleges and universities for 20 30 years or more and so it would have seen it come out now at a popular level but it's been there for quite a while from its origins in the 60s and going back third to the 30s gotcha so i i read an article recently where where a uh it was in christianity today and the editor said uh nobody really knows what critical race theory means it's a bugaboo word you know everybody imports their own definitions into it so could you could you give us a definition of critical race there and then you use the word intersectionality as well could you define both and yeah there's there is a lot of different definitions but there are a number of books like here's a dictionary and critical race theory uh here's another one oxford dictionary critical race theory and so on and so forth but uh critical so critical theory again is the idea there's a number of meanings some of it is kantian kant talks about being pre-critical naive if you will but critical here is in the sense it's it's it's to understand the assumptions the presuppositions of a culture why is a culture let's say dominated by capitalism what are the dynamics what are the thought patterns and sources what's the valken challenge the german the deutsche term uh oh what what's the valkenchan what are the underlying presuppositions that that form it so credible is trying to get underneath that and see what's going on not just what you hold but why do you hold this why do you believe this and one more time what things in culture reinforce let's say capitalism and keep people from embracing marxism so that's critical theory is just not just in a sense have a theory or an idea but it is the whole structure that now comes with this from sociology psychology anthropology to to explain all this so again critical theory two key components though the two key ones are neo-marxism the new marxism not just classical marxism with uh class warfare dialectical materialism but specifically bringing in other disciplines you need against sociology to shed light to understand how to change the society what is the good society okay yeah so so so neo-marxism and and then and then um uh neophrenism the new freudianism if you've ever read i have outlines of material on jacqueline khan it's completely different than freud most people know freud is the individual who had these four or five stages of sexual development and these are key you read jock lecon and you don't even recognize it's freudian it's completely different those are the the two key factors behind this critical theory and stating from the their own works the major works classical critical theory is dealing with liberation it's the emancipation of humanity the idea is kind of like this i'll use even duncan kennedy he basically said even what you think is good and is helpful in our legal system is still part of this machine it's still part of can i use the word the matrix if you've ever seen those movies that enslaves people that binds us we are so blinded to our own condition we don't even realize how bad it is we don't realize how enmeshed we are in the machine the machinations of of of capitalism so critical theory is attempt to show people to take off the mask we're all going to halloween party it's to take off the mess it's to expose reality to let people see realities it really is and quit being so naive about capitalism and see the liberating emancipating life-bringing life-fulfilling doctrines of marxism and communism or neo-nazis at least so neo-marxism is taking marxism out of uh economic questions and applying it to society right we're not just using economic categories to analyze our analysis is not just economics it's not just alienation that is the worker the protalitaria being isolated from their work from their their product of services services they produce classical marxism it's we need to bring in these other sciences together and shed light on why we think the way we do yes and then neo freudianism this new in particular this new psychology so those are the two prongs that really undergird critical race theory so then there's critical theory in general and legal studies and then that is applied to race feminism uh gender studies even uh weight studies there's it's applied across the board now precisely and i think i said critical race theory it it does underline it underlines critical theory which underlies critical race right but you're right so critical race theory is just one there's queer crit now that's their term and queer is their term uh radical feminism not just feminism but radical feminism and there's various types of all this and shades and whatnot again i've got dozens of books i mean even among the queer crit they disagree and but whether it's judith butler uc berkeley or others views yes but then there's and then of course of course modernism but yes critical race theory queer crit radical feminism there's a number of movements and then that's whole development related but slightly different in literature studies but these basic ideas are underneath it all right so it sounds like it creates a i don't want to get into critique too much but i can't help it um it sounds like it creates a a classic like duncan hunter you are you're saying that that we are part of the matrix the the system is has blinded you from being able to see the system itself and how it oppresses you but somehow he was able to break free from that right well there are some people who've seen the light and so let me just do this segway to make uh hopefully not be too redundant but i'd rather be redundant and make it clear so it moves from analysis of class warfare as in classical critical theory and why do not people embrace marxism as opposed to capitalism now it's moved in critical race theory to particularly why do whites whites are the new capitalists capitalism if you will just move that over and why do they oppress people of color so people of color there's only two groups people the oppressors and the oppressees and whites now not just class because class can be some blacks against some blacks or hispanics or what have you no this is now all about whites oppressing people of color particularly in this case blacks okay and then intersectionality briefly what does that mean that's just adding other factors so the view would be it's simply adding one or more to the original one of of let's say race okay so someone someone who's a female would say i've got two strikes against me i am i am discriminated against not only because of my my color now they use the term race i'm going to use ethnicity i believe there's only one race but not to be too confusing so they say i suffer because of my race and i'm a female and let's say she's also bisexual now she's got three strikes against it so that's the latter two are forms of intersectionality it is multiple forms they would say of discrimination not just race or ethnicity but things like social economic standards status gender sexual preference religion non-religion two or more of these any of these factors now brings in simply what's called intersectionality and at that point they are the only ones that can speak to oppression right the person that has more strikes against them quote unquote they they have a unique insight into knowledge that somebody say who's white or who has less checks against them they don't have access to precisely so even some among the feminists some uh who are colored will say you white women have no idea what we're talking about don't speak for us they would reject what they call the sensualism essentialism is there something in common to various ideas and they'd say there's no such thing as essentialism regarding feminism it's a a person of colors discrimination is a feminist versus bisexual versus what have you they're all different you can't you can't just say this fits all of them but nonetheless yes they alone have the experience they alone have been oppressed they alone can speak about it so a white person like me i'm the worst of all i'm a white male and a law professor oh my goodness it's really bad i have white privilege i even by just talking like this shows i have white fragility to use d'angelo's terms and there's this whole vocabulary but to your point the vocabulary that goes with this yes the only they have had this experience only they can address it i can do the work that's what it's called do the work and try to understand my whiteness and try to overcome my whiteness or at least try to minimize it it's never going away i will never be over it some extreme christians are saying even the debatable whether i can even be saved as a white male but i never get over this but i can do the work but i can at least be quiet let them speak or speak out against racism but only they have the expertise only they have the experience so some are calling that ethnic gnosticism um is that a is that an accurate way to look at it is there a better way to look at it and how would you respond to that i'm uncomfortable with that i think the term narcissism gets abused a lot and used all over the place if we understand the gnostic movements of people like lazaridis and valentius and others in the early church ceremonies who apparently john was dealing with in first john i understand if you want to say there is an experience but it's not really secret see in narcissism these were esoteric experiences and knowledge it wasn't just knowledge it was experiences and knowledge it was like via the occult the occluded the hidden and so yes it's it's true that they believe only they have the experience it's really more a form of existentialism or experientialism so i want to be technical in my pistological categories i'm i don't use the term the new monasticism because i think that's problematic i get what people are saying i don't think it's very accurate that's helpful so how do you respond to somebody who says you're you're a white male and i'm a black lesbian female and you have no access to anything that i've experienced and you can't even speak to racism because of who you are well sure let me put a few more things on the table though because it gets it gets more difficult than even as you've painted it so according to people like derrick bell and others really who were at the source of this development if i disagree if i ask questions but not just to embrace it i'm just showing now delangelo in her book white fragility calls it white fragility so i'm just showing another author says i'm using the the master's tools in the master's house because i'm a white guy so objectivity evidence all that is just part of my toolbox to keep myself in power see it's all about power we can bring in michael for go it's about power these are power relationships i'm in the power seat and that's why only i only a white can be a racist is because we alone allegedly have the power and so uh so all that shows my bias um all of that shows that um i can't get it so there's when i if i would ask let's say could you give me some evidence i i just want to know or the statement that more black people black men are killed unarmed black men are killed by police in america every year than whites i say could you give me some evidence that just shows my fragility that just shows my my bias that i'm enslaved in this whiteness in fact there's a book called the weapons of whiteness and it goes through things like this so even objectivity in fact derek bell would say if i were to question even i would i would say non-antagonistically jose could you could you tell me about this could you explain this to me or give me some evidence you might get a response like this i will not even stoop to dignify your questions these are just cover you're just masking your hostility and not getting how deep the rabbit hole goes so to speak i'm not going to dignify that with the response and this idea people get promoted by merit once again that's a white man's tool objectivity logic rationality white man's tool even at the museum of blacks or blackness that they have in dc they took it down apparently but they had a section talking about white values and one of them was things like objectivity looking for evidence so there's a couple terms we need to understand before just a few more terms i know it gets a little heavy but people can go back and go over this to help us understand what's going on here so one of them is relativism let's just start with that i've got three key terms that need to be looked at one of them is relativism relativism now there's epistemological relativism and there's moral relativism and other forms i'm just going to make it easy to deal with moral relativism moral relativism says there's no universal or absolute truth that is true for what all times all people on all places and all circumstances so whether something is right or wrong as contingent or relative to the times people places or circumstances and those change whether something's right or wrong or true or false so relativism so epistemological relativism says now there's no universal objective knowledge by the way people get confused here people think these people are saying there's no objective knowledge that's not quite true there's no universal objective knowledge that's the distinction that needs to be made there's no knowledge that is true for all times all people all places all circumstances so epistemological relativism moral relativism second of all we need to talk about identity politics identity politics or identity epistemology is is really just as new things vary or are true only for a given group so white males have their truths their science black females would have theirs bisexual asian women would have theirs and and never they shall meet and so they're different related to this another term is called standpoint in other words from your standpoint from where you're standing this would be true this would be false or not relevant so standpoint epistemology standpoint politics or identity same difference there are interchangeable terms basically now i know it's a lot one more though and it really helps understand this social constructivism it has various names perspectivalism constructivism social constructivism cultural constructivism uh same difference they're basically the same okay and that basically says once again there's no universal objective truths so not universal not objective but there are truths that are objectively solved for a given people a given group of people our culture or subculture or time or place now this that's difficult i realize it's hard to get your mind around that but let's try this in america all things equal we drive on the right side of the road now barring an accident or a police telling you to go over the line or construction workers what have you you drive on the rights of the road if you don't drive on the right side of the road or you run a red light the police officer's going to pull you over and if you say well that's just your subjective opinion he or she is going to write you up a problem with glee and say just keep talking and no here's here's here's the traffic code right and here it is and you violated this so it's objective uh no and in if not not universal in great britain or australia they drive all things equal on the left side the quantum buzz on the bus all things equal right and india they drive wherever they want okay but the point is it's not absolute in america all things equal drive on the right australia great britain drive on the left it's objective but it's not universal it's not always true because there are exceptions and it's not true for everybody one more the constitution it's objective you can talk about the bill of rights the tent but you can talk about 27 amendments to the constitution it's objective but it's not absolute in the sense that it can't be amended there's a process so people get confused because they want to talk radical subjective relativism or this absolute objectivism but there's a i call it a halfway house a halfway house and that is social constructivism is objective but it's not absolute now here's the point and here hopefully this will help this is where critical race theory plays this is where it lives in the world of social constructivism i think some thinkers make the mistake of not explaining this and not explaining this clearly they confuse themselves or just don't think about it and so this explains how they can say the things they do but also i believe how you can refute this and show that the absurdity of this it's that holds the key of explaining why it's problematic to say the least um so anyway those are concepts that i know are difficult people can review them but if you don't get these concepts you don't know how to answer answer and interact with these concerns so for this episode i want to i want to ask one more question and that question is so how did we get here in the church the church is often a day late and a dollar short generally about 20 years behind the world and then we imbibe what the world's gone through it's like the emperor has no clothes the latest fad and fashions we want to embrace thinking somehow we're being relevant i i appreciate at least the attempt on the part of many christians to be relevant martha martin luther said unless we preach the gospel of contemporary relevance we've not preached it so i appreciate that the problem is we we imbibe these things that are actually antithetical to the gospel i know you're actually teaching a series in galatians and i think you're going to bring that out you're bringing that out that we mean well but we bring in things that actually are antithetical i.e opposed to the gospel we mean we may not need to do that we don't mean to say that or do that but that's what we do because we don't understand the implications we don't understand the trojan horse that we've let into our city and then we can't figure out what went wrong how did my kids go south on me i don't understand yeah and let me say this john because i'd be remiss racism is an issue i'm not trying to belittle it i'm not saying it doesn't exist i'm not saying it doesn't exist in the church but that's not the same thing saying dealing with racism is not the same thing as embracing critical race theory they're at a whole different level from each other so it found a home in evangelicalism because there was a movement about 20 years ago that that planted the seeds of post-modernism in evangelicalism that has now grown and that growth has become the embracing of things like critical race theory intersectionality is something that we can integrate with the gospel is that correct yeah and christians are to their credit many of them sensitive to racism and so they see that and they think oh racism is a problem is an issue i i don't want to be little or depreciate my friends perspectives who are people of color and have had discrimination done against them then they think that that but to counter that to deal with that i have to embrace for example black lives matter not the slogan but the actual movement the organization should say and or critical race theory and and again they're too related but different things and so about 20 years ago there was the emergent church and it seems like the emergent church has gone away as a movement but this shows that it really didn't go away altogether no no and the church many people thought something like this many christian leaders oh modernism bad very bad modest and bad postmodernism good or at least okay not all of it but many key tenets of post-modernism we can embrace those and i would argue neither of them are all good or all bad but there are some serious problems with both of them but but people tend we tend to pendulum we go from one extreme to another oh modernism and scientism has just thrashed christianity so it's bad post-modernism they seem to be open uh seem to be the operative word here and then we embrace that and you're right it didn't go away it came to roost it came to see those seeds the mixed my metaphors that we planted now are sprouting and they're producing fruit i would argue bad fruit and then people are going and how did we get here right which is the question that i'm that i'm asking you how did we get here society as well as um as in the church so for um for somebody who who's heard all of what you've just said now the question that i would have is biblically what is the problem with critical race theory the problem with it is it really it supplants and almost replaces the gospel here salvation isn't really just acknowledging your sin all of us it's in particular for white people white people all white people we need to explain this all white people are racist according to you every single white person so if there's an interracial marriage a white person and a person of color the white person is always trying to get over and take advantage of the person of color but it's never the other way around so the problem is it replaces the sin issue which is universal the s-i-n sin are are falling short of the glory of god not living up to god's holy and righteous and perfect standards which we all are guilty of and all need to repent of and all need forgiveness and continued sanctification so there's positional righteousness by christ who impedes to us his righteousness absolutely uh as we're told for example in romans 5 2 5 7 through 9 and elsewhere but there's then there that's positional but then there's practical righteousness we all need to continue to grow in our most holy faith but now this really puts it basically on white people white people are really the problem the issue even if they'll say the sin the descent issue is is whiteness is is prejudice is discrimination by whites against blacks and that is at this i mean it does exist it's a problem it is in the church as i've already said i want to say that because i know people are going to listen to this and people are going to say hawkins doesn't even think some christians are racist i didn't say that i'm not saying that but to make it the problem is now to distort what the issue is because with all due respect i'm going to argue black people and i've met plenty who are just as racist as some of the biggest rednecks i've ever met some not all summer are and it it confuses the sin problem therefore it confuses the salvation issue what is salvation which really means in hebrew and greek deliverance what is deliverance is it just from my my whiteness the weapons of my whiteness my distorted contorted world view of whites are superior white supremacists what have you no it's that could be one sin sin is manifest at many many many levels and so i believe it messes up the whole gospel message and so a person who is from a minority group can't be racist according to this um theory correct yeah because they don't have the power i've had students tell me i don't have the power i often ask my students are are all whites races can only whites be racist and i've heard many times yes because you you alone have the power white people have it over consciously and unconsciously they think that way of people of color so i've had many look in the eyes and say yep i can't be a racist i don't have a power so it has nothing to do with ethnic hatred then it depends they it could classically we didn't really define racism there's at least three views that are offered of racism the third one i'm going to argue is problematic but clearly one form of racism is defined is the idea of the animus and it's often out of it it tends to gen well the first one animus is just i i don't like people i don't like these group of people uh so animus and latin i i hate them don't like them that's one uh the second form is an idea of superiority i may or may not hate this group of people but i'm superior now here we hear things like the term the white man's burden i've got to take care of other other races because i'm superior so those are two out of animus or the idea of superiority this group this ethnic group or racist superior to another but the third one is indifference some would say even indifference is racism now i find that very problematic and we can discuss that or not but if someone let's say knows racism exists at their country club but they don't actively fight against it they don't support it they disagree but they don't actually actively get involved in ending let's say racism or discriminatory practices based out of the idea of superiority and or hatred of other groups does that make them a racist where we've moved today is even the third category it makes you a racist as well if you're not actively combating racism if you're not anti-racist then you are a racist that's if you're not doing the work that you're supposed to yes and that's the term the work constantly going through my stuff and identifying how at a conscious unconscious level i am a racist contributing to the oppression of other ethnic groups so i'm a christian and i'm watching television or i'm sitting in church or i'm reading a book or i'm listening to a podcast and i hear somebody say i reject critical race theory i reject it outright it's it's or yeah it's anti-gospel what buzz words should christians be listening for that really tell them they the the person who said that really embraces critical race theory they may not even know it right and because it's the idea even just that vocabulary but key term would be like white fragility you're you're manifesting white privilege uh and there's just there's so many terms john to be honest we could go through so many of them and they're readily available at certain uh websites and that i can mention those uh but but it's it's just the whole vocabulary if you're not actively involved in in combating this if you don't you've got to confess we talked about a different view of sin a different view of salvation even confession here confession is i'm a racist i i am closet or otherwise i am a racist i acknowledge it and i'm repenting of it and so that that's part and parcel of that so let me even even go so far to some is you must you must confess i'm a racist or you hear this you know say so-and-so's name or what have you or i have to say every every person of color who is shot by the police every case is always racism if you if you deny that then see that proves that you are suffering from white privilege you're you'll have you have white fragility so when it comes to these kinds of things i've heard it said by christians um they kind of want to take a mediating position so they want to say hey we reject critical race theory but we want to love our neighbors and so is is this an attack on love to like a vid even a video like this trying to help people think through this issue so they they understand it biblically they understand it even philosophically the struggle that that i'm i'm sensing in people is that i don't want to be unloving um and for me i want to say i want us to be biblical and accurate and when we are we will be loving and so help me think through this right and i would argue this is the way many people are are brought into this critical race theory and again the example the phrase black lives matter if someone says that to me and they ask me is that true i'd say well of course that's true they matter if you mean the slogan or the thought black lives matter of course they do but if you mean by that that the movement black lives matters which at least two of the three original founders are avowed marxists no that group is dedicated to the destruction of the family against christianity the gospel of salvation through the lord jesus christ so what happens though is a christian who is sensitive to loving people and wanting to embrace people and show the love of god they're confused with that very legitimate sentiment and attitude versus now accepting the neo-marxism that goes with black lives matter and the mantra of critical race theory which is completely hostile to the gospel so as you're saying we would argue by being correct biblically we are indeed showing the ultimate form of love the church has said from millennia too that orthodoxy is related to orthopraxy right doctrine should produce right practice and vice versa and so by imbibing a false system while it sounds good but in fact a false system we are really not loving people we are we are acquiescing to a an ungodly unbiblical system of thought that is dedicated to the destruction of the family and the church and the gospel of jesus christ as it's been given to us is it accurate to say that evangelicalism has always had a problem with this imbibing unbiblical anti-biblical philosophies and trying to integrate them into christian theology yes in fact many theologians have said and i think rightly so in fact in my education i actually had classes on contemporary and classical culture spend a lot of time in certain classes reading what we would call heretical culture culture heretical theology most these individuals whether it was well i'm trying to think the father of sorts of vanessa of liberalism anyway schleier marker thank you so much uh and others they thought they were defending christianity emmanuel kant and his reworking of christianity thought he was saving it uh from uh obsolenity and and being rejected by intelligent people uh rudolph bolton the list goes on and bruner you know the list goes on and on and the church has continually over and over again fought the issue of how can we relate to people meet them where they are and love them truly in their own communities but without giving in to what they're in their sinful thoughts and lifestyle i think of paul in first corinthians 9 he wants to be all things to all people that he might all possible means when some but then he says i know that i'm going to go out and get drunk and do drugs and sexual immorality but i will attempt to bridge the gap and meet people where they are with the gospel without compromising just real quickly john i think that second corinthians 10 starting with about verse 3 really applies here as well actually in verse 2 paul says in second corinthians 10 2 and following i beg you that when i come i may not have to be as bold as some expect me to be towards those who live by the standards of this world so people in the church but actually living by the standards of this world right he says the weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world on the contrary they have divine power they have divine power to demolish arguments we demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of god and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to christ so over and over again for example we see in first john and the epistle written to the church of colossi they're dealing with forms of gnosticism or pregnosticism and paul's warning them don't don't imbibe this don't accept this here's a way to look at this why are we told in romans 12 1 and 2 those two beautiful verses about again not being conformed to the world but being transformed on a chinosis on a kinesis being transformed by the renewing to the word there it's we get a word metamorphosis from from transforming but be renewed on the kinosis of our minds we're not to conform to the schema the pattern of this world but to be transformed by the gospel but sin can be subtle and once again i feel for our brothers and sisters who are saying well i just want to love people racism is horrible it's an egregious sin to which i agree i just want to combat that and show them we love and care i agree with that but that doesn't but you cannot do that by imbibing full-on black lives matter and their teachings of the organization and thousand currents and all the other organizations behind them and around them that are in league with them and or critical race theory because these are other gospels these are indeed not only other gospels therefore they're antithetical they are opposed to the gospel and that's why what is paul doesn't he warn us in galatians 1 twice right don't be deceived not by an another jesus another spirit another gospel second corinthians 11 but these counterfeits which are really no gospel it's these are parental issues the problem's not going away it's still here so my problem with all this was that i thought it would go away pretty quickly and i was wrong i thought that evangelical leaders would see this for what it is but it's because i have a background in philosophy you were one of my teachers you're my main teacher and i have a background in philosophy i have a background in history and so i knew a hundred years ago there was a social gospel there was a social movement that infiltrated the church split denominations split churches um and so i thought okay the our evangelical higher up leaders you know the the conference speakers and all they're going to see it they're going to call it out they're going to see what it is this is an unbiblical philosophy coming in it's an attack on the gospel and so i thought this will pass just like the emergent church passed and i was wrong it only it's only been embraced by them they see it as as helpful as a helpful way to understand society and i think what did i what did i miss here that's really important what you just said and i want to revisit that that's very very important uh two two thoughts on that um it's there's kind of a saying that the problem with most theologians is they need some philosophy classes that needs to be taught by some philosophers some things that is the problem with most philosophers is they need some theology classes they need to be taught by theologians so many of our well-meaning brothers and sisters even in leadership are i'm going to use this and say this are naive they really don't get it they've not really studied this look i say this stuff at some of the foremost universities in america if not the world okay um and with some of the brightest bulbs in the world and you get to see the stuff unpacked and what they really mean by it and what they're going to do with it and there are many christians not just the hoi polloi not just the laity the people in the pews in our seminaries and in our other institutions of higher education in the church who who've bought into stuff they're naive they don't get it they i've as you know i've taught logic and critical thinking for years or decades and and i would argue these guys need some serious classes like that they just don't see let me give you an example uh one denomination said well okay we rejected as a world view overall world view but there are analytical tools or aspects i forget the exact language of the resolution but there's analytic aspects of it that can be helpful what analytic aspects first of all they don't believe in analysis and anal analytics as such oh that's nonsense to them it is it is the learned experience that matters i've experienced this and non-colored people have not therefore you can't really speak to this and how do you deal with this you have to get every white person to admit there are races and do the work for the rest of their life because they're racist every single one as james lindsey says you know new discourses i think it's a great website him and peter pagozian and and the gallon that was phenomenal uh they're atheists but i can work more with them i have more in common with them than i do with this stuff even brothers and sisters who buy into this but it's always everywhere use their phrase always everywhere everything's every white person is a manifestation of racism and it's so it's ubiquitous it's everywhere and always i i eat sleep and drink being a racist you know and again am i saying i've never had a thought that was was sinful i'm not saying that but i'm saying that i've always been i'm a racist and everything it's like that's that's nonsense and i'm not going to embrace this and i'm not going to say okay i'm a racist and i'm always everywhere i'm a racist it's not true i sound funny and i've had students i've had to say this to i don't even like talking like this and they've had their responders but i said man my black friends i've had for 25 30 years they're all going to be shocked about this they had no idea i was such a racist it's it's it's it's not just that it's insulting it's just it's nonsense because there's no standards to disprove it this is a non-falsifiable viciously circular thinking that that you can't falsify it because anything just pre any any contesting on your part disagreement or asking for objective evidence just proves that it's true could you imagine could you imagine doing this john and uh and a trial in a court of law well the fact that the the defendant is is disagreeing and says they're not guilty just proves that they're guilty that's that's crazy talk which one of our dear friends christian or not involved in black lives matter the movement or in critical race theory is going to say in a court of law god forbid civil criminal case if they're hauled into court that's right the fact that i disagree just proves i'm guilty so you have to give real world concrete examples to show that in every other area of life people think like this we put them away because they're a danger to themselves in society now they get tens of thousands hundreds of thousands of dollars in book deals and uh public appearances yes so when when i hear theologians or others saying so i i don't accept it as a worldview but there are key aspects that we can learn from it and are valuable i'm challenging them right now what are those aspects please pray tell tell me what are those yeah i would submit no if you're saying that racism exists in the church i agree but that doesn't that's not critical race theory yeah that'd be like saying that because houses burned down i think we need a fire department in every other house or something that's that doesn't follow so is there a difference between social justice and biblical justice unfortunately the two often are different today there are there are some great thinkers like frank gabilan who's a phenomenal theologian you can go back and find a really good article on this topic i think very biblical but most people don't even know who frank gabline was or his father phenomenal theologian yes thank you so unfortunately today for many it's the same and i would argue many christians who mean well have confused the biblical concept there is much in the bible about justice god wants us to treat the orphans well uh the the poor the oppressed if you will which are orphans which are widows uh which are foreigners or you know people immigrants if you will there's dozens of passages i could cite many of them right now if we wanted to so that concept is there because there is an outworking of the gospel god is a god of justice and that is not just it's not quite the word or phrase i want not just but it certainly is regarding our own justification before god although the reformations view of justification uh oh that beautiful word the concept of be declared righteous this legal forensic term but also god wants us to be just he wants us practically speaking in our lives to treat others just but that's not the same as buying onto the group black lives matter critical race theory now john i'm not sure you want to deal with this but you know i'll put it in here if you don't mind we can wait so let me go back to a little bit of refutation so if i say that to disagree proves i have this that's why i talked earlier about social constructivism because social constructivism also known as the problem with that called the contextual fallacy william dempsky brilliant mathematician philosopher christian thinker calls it the contextual fallacy i think rightly so if i teach that all truth is relative to a given group time place people circumstances again the big four then that would apply to this view so someone says in my view all whites are racist and i say thank you very much i appreciate that but i'm not in your group i'm in another group and for me that's not true so how can they refute my view they can't all they can say is well i don't like it i don't think you're in touch with reality and i say the same thing i don't think you're in touch with reality so once you've committed to relativism therefore again my point in defining these terms epistemological moral once you've committed a social constructivism and or identity identity or standpoint of epistemology you've basically refuted your own view or all you can say is what's true for me moi are my people the people i identify with ethnically race uh social economically sexual preference age religion it's true for us but so what so keep it to yourself then i'm not in your group see what they're saying is there's no universal truths but that's universally true it's universally true that there are no universal truths that is a self-stultifying the technical term self-referentially refuting statement that's like saying i cannot utter a word in english you'd say but um excuse me mr hawkins i think you just did no no no you clearly don't get it you're obviously hostile to what i'm saying i'm going to spend the next six hours explaining to you proving to you that i cannot better a word in english you'd say that's ludicrous like i tell you my family owns the world-class collection of square circles my biological brother by the way is an only child my biological parents have no children that's that's not profound you don't need to go and meditate on that you don't need to go and have some deep experience with jesus on that that's nonsense pious nonsense you can have pious nonsense but it's still nonsense and so i don't mean to be mean that's why in books i love books like this this is beyond all reason this is by daniel farber and susannah sherry and they deal with among other things a critical race theory in the law and they show how i'm not trying to be mean how ludicrous this view is it's self-refuting just like saying i cannot utter a word in english so again if you tell me truth is relative to a given community again sexual preference religion ethnicity what have you then i'd say fine i'm not part of your community that's not true for me and you by your own views have to admit it's only true for you not for me so thank you for blame i don't want to talk about it anymore so oh good job no no you go ahead i can give some radical quotes by feminists even saying there's one gal in particular who's a well-known epistemologist and she talked about how she would follow the argument based on her professional training as a philosopher she would follow the objective evidence and logic argumentation to review but when she accepted radical feminism she said and so much for logic and reason if it helps me in my view is great if it doesn't it's expendable paraphrase yeah it does it doesn't work for me based on pragmatism i reject it right but that does she want to say that the the neo-nazi or skinhead uh or the radical male chauvinist that's okay then i mean it doesn't work for her but it works for them so after all must be okay or at least for them yeah there's a lot of stealing of virtue from christianity that their world views cannot support and importing it into their own into their own views well exactly one of the terms here is cultural appropriation or really misappropriation so we take things from let's say the black culture what have you and we misuse it uh we try to speak in their place and again we're not we're not can't do that but i would argue there are a number of ideas i think francis shaffer put the mail on they had many times they do the very thing they say can't be done it's not just their views unbiblical which it is it their view is actually self-refuting one more time it's self-stultifying it refutes itself and so part of my job i don't have to be mean and tried out all my arguments i just let people talk often and say but wait a minute i'm trying to understand this you just told me that's only true for a given people but does that include your views i had a student one time give an example teaching human rights and a student the bright guy i don't think he's as bright as he thought he was but he was a bright guy we were talking about convincing people about human rights and which view would be correct and how so and whatnot he speaks up and he says i just think you can't really reason with people people believe what they want to believe and that's the end of it you can't really convince people and i said by the way i appreciate your point but does that apply to you too he didn't like that but right now yeah it's like another student one time uh he had um he was an undergraduate in philosophy this is a law student he didn't realize i had a magic degree in philosophy but anyway so he we're talking about relativism and values and the law and whatnot and he's really uh trying to staunchly defend relativism epistemological and it's okay epistemological and moral and so he's talking i won't give his name but he's a nice enough guy but he's just telling me oh in front of the whole class this is this is true hawkins and i said i said okay by the way just help me out here we've gone over the syllabus and those who don't know the syllabus is the overview of the course it's a contract especially in a law school i have to abide by it once i give it this is how we assign grades these are the criteria the rubrics how we i figure your grade and in our school it's on a curve a bigger class somebody gets an f they get the lowest grade and somebody gets the highest grade i said by the way but but never mind my syllabus we've gone over that but that's objective stuff we're not going to talk about that i've decided merely because of professoral disdiscretion i'm going to give you the worst grade in the class is that okay by the way nice then i look at the other students if i give him the worst grade is that okay they're all like yeah yeah yeah because that means they don't get it and i said and on what basis am i doing this on the basis of my contract no because i don't know because i can do that because it's relative i've just simply decided because i'd be the case that actually objectively which you don't believe that you actually did the best on the midterm exams of the midterm exam the final and other assignments you really amateur so it means you deserve the highest grade i want to give you the worst faker that's relative i can do that i said is that okay now what do you think he said to me well yeah i'm consistent i believe in relativism right this would this would follow i don't like it i'd prefer you don't no he would you'd protest you'd go to the dean the president of the university complain try to bring me up in charges before the academic senate i said you would not agree with this maybe everybody else would but you wouldn't because you know it's wrong i've seen that i've even used that in my own sphere of uh interaction and it is it destroys them it's great i remember a guy yelling at me there is no absolute truth there is no absolute truth i just said is that true and he said absolutely i can't even make that up like it is it was incredible a ucla physics student no less saying that to me and so it might yes it reminds me of another student one time who i was teaching on logic and reason and whatnot and said i don't believe this i don't believe in logic and reason he says in fact i'm going to give you 10 reasons why it's not true really 10. so my last question no going back to biblical justice and social justice is there what are the differences between those well biblical justice is is i would argue as fairness is a form of fairness and it is to be doing the right thing let's say in a lawsuit you give a hold we call it a holding or a decision in law it's called the holding the judge gets a holding or judges based upon what's fair what's right given the facts or it should be so you don't by the way the bible's very clear you don't decide some and favor somebody just because they're poor or or a minority um nor do you should you decide because someone's rich and powerful and famous it's it's their status in the culture should have nothing to do with the holding it should be based upon the decision is based upon what is right what is fair what is just what is good given the actual fact pattern what are the circumstances so because see many people want to say we give preferential treatment to the poor no we want to honor them and help them but i don't give them preference any more than i want to give the rich and powerful person preference i i treat them fairly the golden rule leviticus 19 i want to do as i would want others do unto me that is in part justice it is what what would you want in the same circumstances if you were in the position of that person how would you want to be treated what decision would you want to be made so we've talked about history philosophy theology we've talked about what is critical race theory what what is intersectionality we've talked even about ways that it's not biblical and ways that it is uh philosophically um uh unsound invalid all of these things and so to to to try to wrap things up a bit speak again to the parent who is looking at their their son their daughter their multiple children who they they raised they loved and are now looking at them as their their their children are looking at them as enemies because they're white they are protestant they um they're yeah they're christians and so speak to speak to that parent give them some help sure hopefully on a very practical level we want to support and empathize and appreciate our young people our children for realizing that racism does exist and it is a problem we want to treat all people fairly but once again we don't prefer rich and powerful over poor and oppressed but that means we don't we don't always judge in favor of people of color versus a white it's because they're they're people of color so i want you want to commend them for seeing that first but but again you have to add in the other part for for seeing that there are injustices and that they're concerned about that that is commendable but we also want to be able to deal with the arguments and i think sometimes the best way to deal with this now and let me qualify this when i say arguments i don't mean being argumentative people confuse that i'm not talking about being argumentative being a juror or cramming your views down someone else's throat but giving an argument like an apologia is a well-reasoned rational defense for your position well why do you hold this so i really believe in just as much as possible letting people talk including our own children so what do you think about them why do you believe them not you don't believe that do you you're not one of those are you no why do you as non-confrontational as possible watching your body language of course prayer will come back to that but that's vital well why do you hold that what specifically what's the reason or reasons what are your thought patterns how did you come to this conclusion in other words by creating a an atmosphere for dialogue look i know some of your kids are still going to go off the deep end look because after all your mom or dad but professor dr so-and-so has taught me so you've got that going against you because after all the almighty professor knows everything allegedly and you're just mom and dad i mean come on uh you're fortunate they're even talking to you but but as much as possible as paul would say much as lies within you facilitate the dialogue don't have to always bring it up but when you're able when it's appropriate again why do you think this way what what goes into your thinking let them talk and don't just attack don't just even refute them even with some really good refutations let them let them see that you value them that you care about them as thinking individuals as adults right because yeah part of the dynamic here is they're trying to show their own independence that they're a person that they've cut the ape you know they've been stringer what have you of mommy and daddy so you've got to realize that as well so let them have their ground but just ask thoughtful questions another way to do this is to say by the way i've got some literature on this would you i'm going to read anything you have could you mind what would you want me to read but also would you be willing to read a book or an article now i mentioned this now technically this deals with the law and with other facets and and most of you won't even read this book although it's much smaller than my other much massive books that i have over here sitting here but this this book was reviewed very well in the new york times and the new york times book review section you can find a 10 page version of this that goes through it is extremely helpful that will help you and or you give to to your son or daughter to give to them to ask would you read that if you won't read a whole book would you read this and again you have to be open to do the same i mentioned prayer and not as an afterthought really it's the first line they've been taken i believe hostile they've been taken captive to a hostile viewpoint that is alien to christianity it's a spiritual battle it's not just intellectual clearly i'm not anti-intellectual i taught the university for 32 years okay i hope that kind of proves that's not the case um and my various degrees but but it's but it's not just intellectual it is spiritual it's emotional it's multifaceted and so you should be praying god i'm praying for my son my daughter sons daughters first of all if they're not into it protect them give me wisdom and insight and guarding them against this if they bought into this father i pray for their souls i'm praying for their minds i'm praying for them to bring every thought captive to christ to not be as paul wants timothy people who are confused led astray by what is falsely called knowledge it's fake knowledge uh pseudo and greek i call it suede it's not even pseudo it's falsely called knowledge see they they think they've arrived they are enlightened and educated and they're not but pray for their souls pray and be willing the dialogue may go 5 10 15 20 years you have to be willing to invest in the long run but praying for them and then yes absolutely read what you can listen to podcasts like this listen to them over and over again until this becomes second nature to you it may be it may be that you cannot control yourself emotionally you love your children so much you're so distraught you just can't be reasonable or you're just saying i just don't get this stuff my mind just will not wrap around this i'm having trouble all i've got is a charlie horse between the ears and you talking about this stuff it's not really helped me then talk to your spouse talk to a friend someone who your chil your child with children respect and ask them to to become up to speed with this and have them talk to them but you can love them you can support them and we make the distinction between love versus approval love versus approval we love you i love you i do not approve of these ideas i'm trying to understand them i'm trying to see where you're coming from and know what your child knows if you're being genuine or if you're just trying to get over on them they know the difference these are some of the things you can do there is some good literature new discourses now again they're not christians james lindsay is not a christian peter pagosian is not a christian and they don't hide that but i think their material is still invaluable if i have two deadly stakes and if i have two deadly snakes in my backyard don't ask me how i got a king cobra and a hobby rattler i don't know how they got there but they're there i could try to deal with both of them assuming i have to deal with it immediately you can't call animal control or i can let one snake take out the other snake and then i'll deal with the one that's left so yeah james lindsey and peter bogosian are not theists they're not christians but i think they do an incredible job have great free literature besides their books they have a lot of free literature on their website i would be perusing that website listening to their podcast as well and and trying to better understand this john you said something earlier even dealing with post-modernism and the history of the church it's one intellectual fad after another one heresy after another comes not just out there but to invade the church and i don't see the stuff going away and or if it does it'll only be replaced by some other more potent viewpoint and so i believe time spent here is time well spent here speaking to pastors youth leaders otherwise the church needs to be up to speed on this stuff and to see why it's so problematic not just to say it is but somebody in your fellowship needs to know how to deal with this stuff and minimally to point people to resources because as we've already said there are many well i don't doubt well-meaning godly people who've bought into a lot of this stuff i think they're wrong i think they're dead wrong i don't doubt they know god maybe love god but i also as well don't doubt that they are wrong their sincerity does not prove their view to be correct and we need to love them as well and disagree and rise up and say we're not gonna let you teach us in the church you're not gonna teach us in our seminaries if you insist on this you can go teach it somewhere else you you're free to leave right we're not gonna let this be taught to our people to our congregations to our leaders of our congregation yeah one guest that we're gonna have on in a couple weeks he he advocates for uh church discipline over this if it comes into your church it comes a leader in your church a pastor in your church like this is something where the elders need to step in and say and and follow the steps of matthew 18. yes well i think it's it's that important john if i could we have time and one more story i do a radio program as you know and we deal with all kinds of issues cults the occult world religions philosophy philosophy of religion so on so forth we're religions and then i teach as well at my church but also at university um i had one student one black student smart gal and she was probably the most virulent on this was really adamant that i was guilty of white privilege and what she's saying was true and we're all whites are all racists and what have you and this stuff's all true and she bought into social constructivism and at one point i said to her and because she was giving me what for time and time again on this she actually alienated my whole class actually even my other students of color disagreed with her they said no we know hawkins he's not a racist whatever else he is but he's not a racist um and so i said to her at one point i said to her oh by the way i've decided that i'm actually a black female and because i feel like it because i believe i am and there was one gal head of one chapter of the naacp who did this it was not black biologically if you will i said i've decided i'm black i'm female and i'm going to be applying for your scholarships is that okay and she's like you can't do that that's not right i said what i mean it's not right you've already told me you believe this you already told me you believe social constructivism in my world there's people like me i have another friend who's about my size and my color he believes he's a six foot five bisexual asian woman and he's gonna be applying for asian women scholarships and support scholarships what's the problem with you are you a bigot are you a narrow-minded obscurantist what's your problem you've already told me this stuff is okay and tolerant and enlightened so why do you have a problem with what i'm saying she got it and she actually changed some of her views i'm not saying she changed all of them but she actually changed her tone because she realized whoops i've already bought into this and all he's doing is applying these views and so technically if he thinks he's a person of color and a woman he could apply for these scholarships even though i would say i want to say he doesn't have my experience he's not been discriminated like i have he's not entitled to it but if i really buy into this stuff this is what follows and she pulled back on that so my last question is this if i can't fix if a person cannot fix their whiteness personally and if the system you can't use the master's tools to fix the master's house you can't fix the system then what is the end game here uh the the end game there's several aspects it is we need to acquiesce and basically hand over money and other resources that we have allegedly gained illegitimately a generational wealth they would say is another key term and give it to them and so we need to go above and beyond i'll use the term call of duty they wouldn't say that they'd say it's what's required it's not be of the call of duty to to promote them into positions at work or school or what have you uh to give them literally some of our property and our wealth the endgame is some of them have said only we whites can fix this but we can't but we can't ultimately get rid of our whiteness we can never be cured of this we can only do the ongoing work but in the meantime we can shut up and let them speak for themselves they mean some of they shut up some would say just be quiet um or genteel but but about deal with gentrification and all that issues as well we've appropriated their property we're told and so on and so forth so we need to hand this over some believe in many believe in reparations but the other issue is we can give literally over our so-called personal property real and personal property uh to them and do everything in our power to promote them because the name of the game here is not equality but equity see equality is everybody gets treated equally but of course even given people in equal education there's still different results equity which is a key term here is no everybody needs to end up in the same place and so if i need to give someone more chances more opportunity or i simply need to take i work for a living they can't get a job keep a job i need to give away some of my funds so the end game is equity we're all allegedly equal no matter where we started and no matter what chances we were given equity is the name of the game that's the end game and the people that are going to disagree with that it's going to be through the force of government right and so people like you and me are not compliant so we need the government to to enforce this exactly this needs to be enforced go back and we've come full circle remember the comments revolution in the russia former soviet union lenin and then stalin and others it's violence is necessary some are a little hesitant here but many especially in black lives matter thousand currents and other contemporary organizations believe violence is a necessary tool especially if it's just destroying property just destroying property that's not life so yeah we use violence we use the government if the government won't comply we will take it matters into our own hands so it seems like really the end game for a racist group of people who've developed a racist system is a complete overturning revolution of that system yeah that was what was necessary and and in the former soviet union lenin saw that we must use violence to deal this and it's it's the means justifies the ends the ends is alleged equality which never happened of course across the board not just equity but equality never happened even stalin one time was asked somebody said to him when will the violence end when will the violence end that is against non-communists or party members who are not in good standing or as good as standing as they should be or what have you and he looked at them at disbelief and said one would let end basically to paraphrase it will never end because as long as it's necessary and it will always be necessary there will always be violence the end game the worst form the most robust form on voids is this will be full-on violence well craig we're going to end there because i think time has completely gotten away from me because i love all of this stuff and i love talking to you but i i really appreciate your time i really cannot thank you enough for the for the massive amount of time you've given us and for all of the work that the lord has used you to do not only in in the church in general but in my own life i have benefited from your your ministry for over 20 years and i just i can't thank you enough for for your time for your ministry for for even your family giving you the time to be able to do this and so thank you so much for being here um thank you john you're very kind and uh appreciate all that you're doing and and dale and the other members of your staff and the fellowship there uh by god's grace keep up the good work thank you my friend we'll see you at the end of the month where you're gonna come and be a part of the series that we're going to do so i can't wait for that as well yeah looking forward to that myself all right my friend take care thank you you

Channel: Redeemer Bible Church AZ

Views: 1,568

Keywords: Jesus, Bible, Redeemer Bible Church, Arizona, Gilbert, Mesa, Bible Church, Truth, Understanding, God, Sound Doctrine, Gilbert Arizona, Church, local church, biblical preaching, gospel centered, biblically sound church, social justice movement, what is the social justice movement, intersectionality, ethnic gnosticism, critical race theory, social justice, relativism, moral relativism, social constructivism, critical race theory explained

Id: yl2kIP92AVw

Length: 84min 32sec (5072 seconds)

Published: Fri Nov 13 2020