Empathy & The Art of Negotiation, with Chris Voss

[Music] you're listening to business lunch with roland frasier this is your seat at the table we have the wonderful chris voss who i mentioned and chris i told you the story we met for the first time in person at joe polish's genius network mastermind joe super awesome friendly giving guy and you were there kind of as a surprise and we got to chat and i told chris i was like man your book was literally by my side when i was negotiating the sale of our last company and it made all the difference in the world because we got to a sticking point and i mean it went all the way up like it was a big enough company that we weren't dealing with the ceo to start with we were dealing with some people that were part of the acquisitions team right and we had gone through the first level of people in the second level and the third level and this sticking point was like really a challenge and and and i'm in africa and this is kind of our last ditch effort at this and i'm on a weird satellite phone because i'm on safari with my family and you know ryan dice is in some place uh else and the guys in the uk and we're on the phone and they're like okay this is the last run at this we're gonna get the ceo of the company on and he's gonna have to make the call and i'm i'm like i'm like where the heck is my book where's my okay i got my my chris voss book out and in the back you've got that awesome cheat sheet kind of thing right where it summarizes and uh and so i'm sitting there going you know how am i supposed to do that and all the other things that are in there and daggone if it didn't work right and it it just came down to it being a good like having a good strategy that chris has articulated for everybody in that book if you don't have that book you're insane if you don't get it and uh and also i recommend you get the audio book because i like the i feel like i'm with you you know when i feel like i've got my coach uh when i'm doing that but but just for those of you who don't know chris and then i'll shut up and let him talk i'm just excited because you guys have no idea how much value he brings but chris i'll let you tell you know the little quick story about yourself i know you were fbi negotiator you did all these deals and the stories in that book are just insane and you're negotiating literally life and death and i love one of your things was like you can't say send out half the people like that's not splitting the difference you know we'll just send out half the people or you know what shoes should i wear i'll just wear you know my left foot i'll wear this one you know in the right foot i'll wear the other one i'm deciding but will you give us a quick blurb about yourself and then i want to talk about some specific things that you're doing now and learnings you've had during this time yeah i was an fbi hostage negotiator i was fbi's lead international kidnapping negotiator and we had one situation that didn't turn out the way that i wanted it to you know i talked about it in the book and um when we decided we did everything we knew how to do and it wasn't enough i said well we just got to do better so i negotiated my way into harvard law school's negotiation course you know great people up there and their fundamental understanding of empathy was the same same as ours empathy is not agreement it's not not at all you don't even have to like the other side to be able to exercise empathy with them and i said wow you guys think about this the same way we do and so i went through their course and as a student and then as an instructor and they said you know you're doing the same stuff we're doing the stakes are different but the dynamics are the same and that's really when i started to bring it out you know with my son brandon he and i brought this stuff out into the business world and you know never split the differences done really well we get to meet cool people like you and you know we met we met pedro and we get to meet cool people yeah as a matter of fact just so you guys all know that we all do this stuff you and i were talking about a challenge that you're either about to do or or have done i know uh just a few weeks ago right yeah we're gonna we're gonna do it i mean it it just makes too much sense yeah that that's really cool so what did what have you seen you and i were talking earlier this morning about this but what have you seen that is kind of i guess just in case somebody hasn't read your book would you talk a little bit about the how am i supposed to do that thing and then go into the the nuances of what you've learned and how you've kind of tweaked that to add additional calibrations since this pandemic has happened yeah sure you know how am i supposed to do that is you know one of your best answers we refer to that as a version of no you know it's it's a great skill to use it's a calibrated question starts with the word how and as particularly in a pandemic because great negotiation is about great collaboration and how am i supposed to do that you know my son brandon once said it forces the other side to take a look at you it's forced empathy i mean you use empathy because you want empathy in return you want someone to demonstrate empathy with you yeah and if someone's really coming on you hard instead of just saying no or walking away from the table which a lot of business people do they get upset you know there's a lot of name calling uh or just withdrawal when you say to somebody how am i supposed to do that and you say it not an accusatory way but you know in a differential way because there's great power and deference it makes them look at you and see you as a human being and see your situation and and rethink what they're doing it's it's not what their answer is it's a thought process that you put them through so that you know that's that's really the purpose of great negotiation hostage negotiation was about we got a terrorist we're going to make him collaborate with us whether he likes it or not and business negotiation is about great collaboration even if the other side sees you as an adversary you know the situation you were talking about you needed to make them look at you in a different way and that's why you use that skill right and so the the the thing that you were talking about with respect to the pandemic the little kind of extra tweak would you share that yeah you know so we've evolved it up a little bit you know in the old world if you were pre covered pc everybody assumed that when the negotiation was over you know their normal life was still continuing so now in today's environment nobody knows what normal what what is the new normal look like what's it going to look like in six months it it's far more uncertain so you can use a calibrated question and now we refer to it as a thought shaping question instead of how am i supposed to do that it's really you know how do we work this out so that we both put ourselves in a position to thrive after this is all over you're putting a different image in somebody's brain with the second half of that question you're shaping their thoughts into a vision of how do we thrive when this is over because it will be over this too shall pass has been a truism since mankind wasn't you know became civilized this will pass so let's put ourselves in a position to collaborate and thrive when this is over and that's what we've really added into our negotiation approach to help shift people into more positive mind frame collaborative mind frame so i think that's really really smart and and one of the biggest things and i see it here in the chat because i've tried to to really be present in the chat that a lot of us right now are negotiating with ourselves in taking action and overcoming the fear of not knowing what's going on the fear that the uncertainty that we've got right now how do you negotiate with yourself using like how do you negotiate with yourself to get past fear procrastination all of that stuff yeah well the the big thing you know and i and i did that yesterday because i had a long drive on a road where i had intermittent cell coverage which was a good thing because i you know i told a friend of mine i think it was a sign from god that i should be looking at the countryside as opposed to making phone calls and uh but i caught a migraine just before i went which you know shifts your mood when i got home and stuff was bothering me you know my house is kind of my home base it makes me feel good to be here as i'm approaching the door the negotiation in my head shifted from this is happening to me to for me you know and you know that's that's and it was an instant mind shift you know this challenge you know whatever i'm faced with whatever is holding me back whatever is frustrating me is it's either happening to me or for me you know frustration i hate frustration or frustrations and education frustrations and opportunity you know there's a number of different ways to package gratitude into your head or the reality of your circumstances i mean i i you know i've been in the third world i've been in places where people didn't have running water i've been places where colleagues were murdered after i left the country because it was so dangerous right i woke up within 10 feet of running water today i managed to get out of bed and get a drink of water and i didn't have to change clothes i didn't have to walk through a village i didn't have to bring the water back in a in an urn to my house i mean i i got it pretty good as it is and so sometimes just a recalibration whatever works for you in your brain because the world is the universe is on our side our survival mode is wired so that we don't feel that way but in point of fact it is on our side so what happens when when you're a little over when you're overwhelmed like this this is a good example right now a lot of us are home this is 21 things to do but there's 20 billion it seems like because so many people have things going on and you've got a challenge going on do you have a link for that yet i know i think that sandy or somebody shared it in here but do you know what that is that yeah well our challenge is gonna is gonna take place uh after the first of the year because we decided that uh having survived covet and thrived through the situation we're now in appreciation celebration mode for the last two months of the year good there it is it's a black swan ltd.com forward slash home that that's where it's going to be if it's not there already yeah so but i want to talk about overwhelm and i'm really curious as to how you apply the negotiating stuff that you've got because i think a lot of us are saying to ourselves right now i got 21 things plus all these other things how am i supposed to do that right what how do you answer that for yourself you know and i get to do that to myself sometimes too i mean so this is neuroscience the identification of a negative emotion diffuses that emotion it's the most effective way not the denial of the negative emotion but the identification of it when i feel overwhelmed overwhelmed is aversion any negative emotion is a version of fear so i i call it out to myself if i'm concerned if i'm anxious if i'm frustrated it's a version of fear and and i know that every time i call it out it diminishes it you know i'm my own laboratory so if i'm scared this is exactly what happens i'll say to myself i'm afraid i'm afraid i'm afraid effort i'm not afraid you know every time i call it out it diminishes it yeah it dials down the negativity in my brain i don't don't deny it the two millimeter shift is from the denial to simply calling it straight out that is huge that that really is to because then you're you get it you're not just overwhelmed you're afraid i love taking it back to that level that's great and then and then bang and you know then if i if i if i deactivate the negative then my positive part of my brain will kick into gear every time i love it now if we happen to meet someone i i get more and more people now asking that question initially this would it be ridiculous to think that we could work together and things like that which is funny because that was one of the first things you texted me long long ago and i was like that's he's using that thing to get the first no that's really cool because you said that people who give a no that that disarms them and their walls fall down would you talk about that for a second and then i got a follow-on question well when you say no you feel safe and protected that's just that's just the reality of the situation plus it's actually it's easier to say no when you're fatigued it's very hard to come up with any other answer when you're tired right so you know i've had clients say to me you know the other side they're in no mode you know everything we say to them they say no and i'm like cool just change your questions and they're like no that's too stupid and actually no it's not so you know i don't say to somebody do you agree i say do you disagree you know i i don't say does this look like something that would work for you i say is this a stupid idea you know i use this on jack welch to get him to agree to come to uh teach in my negotiation class i you know i use it on um uh shark tank robert herzevic robert herzog by the way is a decent human being generous great guy yeah and i use it on him to close you know to get a decision on some tickets to one of our courses i mean it it works it just works it does now if if you are talking with someone who you see is familiar with your stuff and you're in a negotiation with them and you're trying to get they're trying to get something that you can't give and you say how am i supposed to do that or or let's say you're trying to get something from them and they say how am i supposed to do that that's actually my question what do you say back to like you're on the uh i'm kind of like putting you on the other side of the negotiating table with yourself because i want to know what's the counter negotiation measure to how am i supposed to do that yeah well the real issue is not as somebody use them with tools the real issues what are they using the tools for right so i can smell that pretty quickly and we all can you know if you're if your internal alarm systems are going off they're going off for good reason and there's a pretty good chance that you don't want to make this deal with this person right or do it's going to be painful long term so my alarm bells are going off you know i'll do a couple things where i'll test the other side to see if they're going to open up to me and if they're not i'm just out that's it you know my my son the members of my team we use these skills on each other all the time we're collaborating you know if if my son if my uh director of operations chelsea you know anybody who you know my daughter-in-law is uh the chief of marketing she's brilliant if she says to me how am i supposed to do that what they're saying to me is like look this is a problem that you're not thinking through you need to see this in broader terms there's something here that you're missing right so you know they're trying to get me to think in a in a broader way yeah so i'll sit back and i'll be like uh wow okay okay what am i missing um and i might say it sounds like i'm missing something here it sounds like i'm ignoring your situation i mean i'm i'm going to re-engage in a different way yeah if somebody says that to me and i think they're trying to cheat me or they don't want to collaborate i'll say look this is how you do it yeah you know if you want if you want the deal here it is which in point of fact is the answer that you're looking for and how am i supposed to do that because you need to know how firm the other side is without making them mad and how am i supposed to do that let you know where they are firm without angering them and most times in business deals to find out where somebody's firm you make a mad which then damages the relationship i need to find out where you are without angering you without insulting you and that's the other nice thing about how am i supposed to do that because it helps you find limits without damaging the relationship that's yeah that's one really amazing thing about digging down into beyond the tax beyond the actual tactic of let's say that is that it's truly about empathy and empathy is about like to make a great deal you need to be aware of what's important to the other people we just made a ridiculous deal that everybody's asking how did you guys do that how did you do that and it's because we knew that what the people wanted we ask you know what's most important to you and what's most important to them was something completely different than money right and money's not always it so we were able to get this crazy great deal it'll be eight figures of profit to us this year because we knew what they wanted and they're thrilled right and they're not dumb they're super smart they just we knew what they wanted and you know you have to step back so i think that's really great i want to ask you a question bethany cowan has been so amazing here in coordinating everybody she should get so much more credit than she does and we try to give her as much as we possibly can but she's put all this together her dad ty cowan is a huge fan of yours chris and so we told bethany that we would for ty number one if you give tai a shout out that would be super cool tai i'm i'm flattered you're a fan that's really cool i love it i mean i'm i'm i'm i'm complimented i'm flattered i'm i'm blessed thank you very much so ty has a question he said how do you influence the decision maker when you're working through a hostile intermediary or third party a low-level example would be working with like a used car salesman and the financial decision makers hidden back in the office yeah well that sounds like what i used to do for a living [Laughter] you know because there's always a team on the other side there always is you know i was a kidnapping negotiator kidnapping is a business if it's a business they have a boss who's not directly involved he's a decision maker they got a team and i got a hostile intermediary and and yeah car dealer is a great example your intermediary the hostile person is also you know they're the deal killer if you're not careful about it you know how you interact with them are going to be critical uh when i'm trying to get an upgrade on a suite and in a hotel and the clerk of the county's got to go got to go in the back to ask the boss if it's okay to give the suite right boss is going to say you know i don't know is this guy a jerk or is this guy a nice guy you know clerk's going to go back there and say hey i get this jerk out front who wants an upgrade i promised i'd ask and he'd be like yeah no no jerk gets an upgrade or she goes in the back here she goes in the back and says you know this is pretty nice guy out there you know we got we got empty sweets nobody's going to be in him tonight right no he's he's a decent dude why don't we let this guy in there i mean it's the same kind of a thing never be mean to somebody could hurt you by doing nothing it could hurt you by how they characterize you to the decision maker right yeah so how do you deal with them again you know proactive empathy you know i'm gonna seem like a jerk asking for this uh you know i know i'm going to make your day miserable how bad of a position do i put you in if this happens because the other thing the intermediary looks at is what position are they left in if they give this to you you know it's it's it's what we do with when i'm working on an upgrade in a hotel on a regular basis you know how how many people are going to get mad at you here if if you give this to me because that's what's going to go through their mind if i do this what's going to happen to me what kind of a position does it put me in so i you know i recalibrate my question so that they go into the future slightly and they deal with it and then they come back to me and we work together so yeah that's how you do it you know precede this with empathy how's it going to look to the other side what you're going to do to them show them that you're taking into account and and make your ask okay role play with me for a half a second so you're checking into the hotel and i'm the i'm at the front desk because hotel upgrades happens to be one of my great passions and and i'm gonna send you because i think you will really love it my whole breakdown of how how i get upgrades and i would love to compare notes with you so i'm i'm at the hotel and you've just arrived and you're looking for an upgrade mr voss welcome i see that you have your reservation here we have a wonderful king room on the first floor by the elevator it's a little noisy but uh hope you enjoy it i am getting ready to ruin your day what's what what how how is that going to happen well i know i'm just going to seem like a self-centered traveler who just doesn't care about you or anybody else and super entitled and i think i'm worth more than i ever am if i ask you for something free okay are you what can i do for you how can i help you how many people are going to get mad at you if you give me a free upgrade to a suite that's great i love that because then they're going to check inventory and very often they don't have to go in the back but sometimes they do it that's that's really cool i i always you know what what like and this is empathy and let me let me take a timeout here too yeah yeah i don't always get a suite because the hotel i just came from was fully booked but through that process i always get something i have never not ended up in a better position ever that's awesome through that process you know you know we connected yeah like you felt like that i realized that a lot of self-centered people come through here yes so what i want is to be better off no matter what yeah i don't want my ask to constrain my options exactly yeah i it's funny i i start with the line because most people will just when the person in front leaves they'll just walk up so i'll go up and i'll wait for them to invite me to come up so that they are on their time because a lot of times they'll have something they have to do and if you're up hovering over them it makes them feel stressed so i wait for the invitation first and then i'll look for anything that i can compliment them on or build rapport if they've got it's uh it's sincere i won't do it you know but but you can almost always find something to compliment people on or on the name tag sometimes it'll say they're from somewhere and i'll be oh you were from you know saskatchewan i remember i went up there and you were you at the such and such there and then that starts that rapport building of commonality then i say what kind of room you know do we have and they'll tell me and i say i said that's great what's your favorite room in the hotel and then they get excited and they're like oh i like the you know carlisle suite it's amazing it's got this blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah oh that's great that's really cool what would it look like if i was to get upgraded to that suite which i don't like as well as i like your things saying um you know i'm i i'm about to seem like a jerk but i like that too but i say you know i future pace them into give me a vision of what it would look like if you upgraded me to that suite and so then that usually leads to well i can't possibly do it because we're sold out no problem okay you know then what's your second favorite sweet but very often it will be a collaboration then right that they're trying to figure out how to work with me and within the system to get me into that room because they're excited to share that and and that's been super cool so that's been lots of presidential and imperial and such-and-such suites using that strategy so i love that i but but i'm going to send you my thing too and i like i like that a lot i mean and one of the things i really love about your approach is you know we like to say vision drives decision decision drives action yes your question is putting a vision in their head first of the suite and then you didn't say can i have it no yeah which is a closed-ended question you said what did what would it look like right that's a visioning question and you know that's that's that's i could go on and on about how much i love about your approach uh and you've got a tool or something like that we talked about that you're thinking you might share there is that yeah well we've got i can throw this into the chat too i mean we've got what we refer to as uh the negotiation one sheet you can go get this download and i gotta tell you we got a lot of free resources on our site so exploit us you know get as much stuff for free as possible from the black swan group but the one sheet is a great prep model you get fill out the one sheet i want to tell you something you're going to be more prepared in a very quick period of time we believe that there's a seven to one rate of return every every minute of preparation probably save you seven minutes in negotiation yeah somebody else talked about preparation before too certain amount of preparation you could over prepare don't let over prep over preparation keep you from the table fill out the one sheet rock and roll jump in yeah i love it thanks again man i really really appreciate you being here today and taking the time to hang out with us absolutely my pleasure i you know any [Music] time [Music]

Channel: Business Lunch With Roland Frasier

Views: 19,804

Keywords: Empathy & The Art of Negotiation, how to become successful in business podcast, business podcast, best podcasts for entrepreneurs, podcast about business, podcasts for entrepreneurs, business lunch, Business Lunch Podcast, Chris Voss, Roland Frasier

Id: 28bBm6L06oM

Length: 26min 48sec (1608 seconds)

Published: Wed Dec 16 2020