Chris Voss - Why you should NEVER split the difference in negotiation

in every negotiation uh somebody's holding back just exactly like what you said you know and they and they're doing it out of defensiveness they're scared you know they've been exploited um and i think there's it's an african saying once bitten by a snake you're scared of ropes you know people people double down on their fears and they're afraid of people that they shouldn't be afraid of consequently as a result you know the last person you when you say what's your budget you know the last guy that asked him that or somebody asked him that and they answered it honestly and then the person took every dime of their budget and didn't deliver so you know once bit they were bitten by a snake they're scared of ropes so what do we do i mean actually these days we're pivoting out of questions almost entirely i mean we were just sitting back you know chopping it up reminiscing about the good old days and all that you know tracking my roots where i came from and where i'm going right i'm chris voss author of never split the difference negotiating as if your life depended on it and you're watching behind the brand with brian elliott i want to talk maybe about some of the stories from your negotiation days but also you know you have that book over your shoulder never split the difference i have to ask explain why we should never split the difference because it seems counterintuitive yeah well if you think splitting the difference is a great approach to life then you are thoroughly impressed with the job that the us congress is doing you think they are the example of great decision-making every step of the way if you think splitting the difference is a good idea comp if you think compromise a good idea then you love the us congress uh you're republican democrat independent you know vegan you don't think the us congress is all that sharp it doesn't make any difference yeah so so what do what do you mean by never split the difference what is that well split a difference um in the first place it's uh it's often a sucker move you know your counterpart who wants you to split the difference there's another thing the person who offers to meet you in the middle is usually poor judges distance so almost without exception people who tell me privately i split the difference all the time well i asked for twice as much as i want and i ended up i end up where i always wanted to be but they felt like it was okay all right so deception by omission is still deception you know that was a lie you got you got you got manipulated in a position with a lie okay let's say you don't deceive by omission splitting the difference is a is a is a downward spiral because and this is nobel prize winning behavioral economics theory danny connor in 2002 i lost things twice as much as as an equivalent gain so if you and i are ten dollars apart and we decide to split the difference we're each going to give in five because you're human because i'm a human i'm gonna if i lost things twice as much as an equivalent gain i'm gonna feel like you hit me for ten not five what's that gonna do to our relationship i see i it starts a downward spiral i won't be happy until i've nailed you back for the equivalent of 10. right now you felt stung by 10 and now i bang you for another 10. you know this is this is a downward spiral the people that say you know great deals when both people are unhappy um is that the recipe for great marriage you know because a deal is going to extend for a period of time you're you're married in business through the duration of the deal which always has an implementation phase i see so you're starting to guarantee problems by splitting the difference yeah so this is about first kind of zooming out and seeing your business your brand the way you do business as a long-term relationship call it a marriage you know metaphorically you're not this is not a one-night stand you guys are in this forever that's how we should be looking at doing business yeah and i got to tell you something if you're ever in a one-night stand that was delightful you want to do it again so it's going to be a repeat relationship one of the famous goldman sachs executives from way back when gus levy was a guy who was it was attributed to him he used to say greedy yes but long-term greedy what's in your best interest long term it's not in your best interest long term to be a real estate developer in new york city and have everybody so mad at you that no one will do anything with you so that you have to leave town and relocate to florida yeah they're so sick of you and the largest economy you know the new york city financials you know maybe it's not the center of the financial world but it's starting close yeah yeah when people are rooting against you and hoping that you fail you're doing it wrong that's not good for you long term it's just not there's no great example of anyone that is good for long term they ultimately the villagers surround the castle and burn you down i want to go back to some of the other techniques in addition to mirroring that you use to be successful in negotiating uh but i'm the brand guy right this show is called behind the brand i want to ask you a little bit about brand what you think the definition of brand is and then tell me what the chris voss brand is uh all right so bran is what you stand for what are your principles what do people think of what do you embody what do you act um uh now i i believe in a lot of really solid principles you know i haven't had the shirt made yet i i do intend to have a shirt made that says deeply flawed human being because you know i believe in integrity i believe in um team first i you know we we embody keeping our word uh we embody learning uh hard work we call it blue collar to me blue collar is a great is is uh something i aspire to unfortunately some people find it uh insulting you know so that that means all right so we we don't line up but um you know that's that's what we stand for hard work and integrity we make a commitment we mean it you know we don't we don't if a meeting is scheduled i want to be there a few minutes early you know i want to i want to literally over deliver on a regular basis um you don't need a co you're not going to get a complicated contract if you do business with us because if you need a complicated contract to make sure the other side performs then your negotiation in the first place was deeply flawed so we you know we have simple one-page contracts we deliver somebody and and we mean what we say like you engage in a black swan group first of all you're gonna have to give us a deposit at least half up front you're never getting that back but we will always deliver and so nobody has a no you know you you engage with us for services now if if after we've delivered the services you feel that what we gave you was undervalued you know what then you're probably gonna get your money back after we after we've delivered if you're completely unhappy with us we'll probably and as a matter of fact we have um giving people back what's the significance with the name black swan group what's the story behind that you know um a black swan it's inspired by uh nassim talib's book the black swan from 2007. uh then uh i think the subtitle was the impact of the highly improbable and he was inspired by the metaphor of the black swan and people said you know you can never have a black swan and then discovered black swans game changers small little subtle things that change everything the small tiny little things that will veer you off into complete completely different outcomes and so and i liked it because it was a dual metaphor for negotiation for people who embody that are black swans we will do really subtle things that will change everything and you know when we were thinking i was thinking seriously about staying in the security space for a while which we are not in we don't do kidnappings we don't do any security at all anymore i thought it worked in that world as well that's cool i relate swans are sort of indirectly part of my story i feel i'm the ugly i'm the ugly duckling you know the beautiful swan huh so there you go that resonates with me a little bit um or not maybe grew into something beautiful as much as i found my people let's say you know um is the difference right yeah find new people yeah uh so talk more about some of these techniques like mirroring that you're using that other people who are negotiating like i am as a production company with clients who are sandbagging all the time you know because i'll always ask what's important to you um why are we doing this in the first place not not like what should we do but like why do this what do you want to accomplish and then i ask you know what sort of what's what type of budget do you have to accomplish this goal and is it congruent to your goals like you know we want to conquer the world but we've got a thousand dollars to do it it's like hmm you know there's a little bit of imbalance here you know conquering the world might take a bigger budget so you know we deal with clients who are sandbagging all the time who don't tell us um all the facts who might be holding back what are some other techniques like mirroring that we could use to get yeah and and so in every negotiation uh somebody's holding back just exactly like what you said you know and they and they're doing it out of defensiveness they're scared you know they've been exploited um and i think there's it's an african saying once bitten by a snake you're scared of ropes you know people people double down on their fears and they're afraid of people that they shouldn't be afraid of consequently as a result you know the last person you when you say what's your budget you know the last guy that asked him that or somebody asked him that and they answered it honestly and then the person took every dime of their budget and didn't deliver so you know once but they were bitten by a snake they're scared of ropes so what do we do i mean actually these days we're pivoting out of questions almost entirely you know we've got a book following book that'll be out probably in may where we um we've really refined our approach you know you asked me what else besides mirrors we're using labels as a way to get people talking label is just a verbal observation it seems it sounds it looks you see me sound you look yeah people think to themselves oh you know i know about that i heard about that fine you haven't heard about it the way we're applying it or the way that we're using it like every word matters and most of the time people that say well i know labels i've been using them for years first of all you that answer tells me your mind is closed if you say if you say tonight if if you look at our performance and you've got people saying weekly this deal will change my life and if you say i know about labels i've been using them for years well really when was the last time you made a deal to change your life and you'll be like wow you know those life-changing deals don't come along every day i get news free they do it ain't the universe it's you so you're not stepping up your game if somebody says something to you and you know their results are high and you say i already know about that you're telling me you're closed-minded and by definition if you're closed-minded that means you've been deteriorating for quite some time because negotiation is a performance skill you don't get better by having a closed mind so can can i unpack the labels a little bit more so if i understand what a label is like i remember this experience uh i was hosting a live event with a it's actually with seth godin who's uh a mentor he's since become a friend and i posted i was hosting this private event and first of all you know he didn't usually do that kind of event privately you know he was i had negotiated we could tell maybe this is a story for another day but i had negotiated getting seth out i i accomplished basically climbing mount everest and then when i got him there were on stage and i heard this loud crash mind you there's a thousand people in this huge auditorium this beautiful theater it's 15 minutes we're behind the curtain and he's about to go on stage i hear this loud crash the projector which was like the size of a volkswagen had crashed on the stage because no one had secured it into like five six eight pieces and seth looked at me and he said you know my entire presentation is based on like 180 slides at you know one or two a second you know like i i don't know if i could do this and and i think i said you look frustrated like i tried to put a label to try and flesh out like how he was feeling i didn't want to say you look terrified because i i i being the professional that he is i didn't think he was terrified i think he was frustrated at least that that was my guess so i tried to draw out that emotion and he did express to me that he was frustrated anxious you know a little bit concerned fortunately the crew you know had another one of those projectors up in the attic and we remedied it no one was the wiser the presentation went off without a hitch but it reminds me you know of labels so if we know what they are like when do we use them so that it's not condescending or um because i think maybe i've done this with my wife oh you you know you look disappointed or something well of course i'm disappointed you idiot you just did something really stupid like how when do we use these labels so it doesn't get thrown back in our face yeah well empathy is the other side's perspective tactical empathy understanding how the brain works the other side's perspective now the better label with seth would have been you look terrified oh so like to go deep because i i went shallow on negatives you got to overdo it you got to go deep because what happens if you overdo a negative it doesn't plant that it inoculates from it and that cat that terrifies people until they until they see it until they hear it and watch it work its magic okay now now that now with you with your bride empathy is again the other side's perspective and now i did the same thing on on on there is one ex mrs boss and so in a conversation with the ex mrs voss one day she was very angry it was a topic that was what ultimately was the biggest issue between the two of us and i said you sound angry and she blew up i mean she might as well burst into flame and i remember thinking at the time i say you sound angry on a hotline all the time and it works what's going wrong here must not work no i was the idiot it would be like if i slapped her in the face and i would have said it looks like your face hurts of course it hurts you didn't you you just laughed me in the face you state the obvious okay well it's not the obvious i didn't take any responsibility for it you know with the with the bride it's like clearly i've made you angry at the first time when you got their perspective is that you're the oh okay oh it's that's where you that's where you bring it in now we don't think that we're the jerk in that scenario yes empathy is not empathy is not our perspective empathy is their perspective yes i know what this is yeah the word accuracy is not there well has this ever happened to you you know someone has clearly done something to you either deliberate or or by accident and their apology which is really a pseudo apology is i'm sorry you feel that way and that's kind of what you're saying here is what i the mistake i made and maybe it sounds like you made it is i'm sorry you feel that way when in fact i should have taken responsibility and said i did this i'm really sorry about that you know instead of stating the obvious is that what you're saying uh it's really close i mean and you you get into a really uh interesting area on the fake apologies you know and how do we know about a fake apology because we got suckered by it at one point right yeah you know the other person's perspective is that you're at fault and us fearing to even utter recognition of that is you know you could even say you think i made you angry that would be better than you sound angry you feel i made you angry and the closer someone into is to us the more we feel their perspective is skewed and then consequently the less we want to articulate it really this crazy unfairness if you give it some thought so let's put it into some practice application okay so i'm a production company i'm pitching um and i asked the client you know what kind of budget have you got for this let's say it's a tv commercial okay we sort of all have a roundabout idea what a tv commercial might cost and they say um they're gonna abduct that well this needs to be a good question it's a really bad question now right but like so how do i i guess what i'm getting is how do i avoid being offended by the answer so let's say in my mind i think i it's going to cost 25 000 50 000 and they say i'd be willing to pay five thousand dollars for that right gasp you know how insulting like i think that happens a lot and maybe we it's hard for me to hide my expressions uh i can compartmentalize feelings but it's hard not to guess how i'm feeling based on my face what should we do in that instance yeah perfect follow on following's going to be labeled all right so what can you label that's true unequivocally true based on their response well let's role play it let's role play okay cool so i've got a budget which which one are you uh i'm i'm the production company you're my client okay so i think this project sounds like uh you know it's gonna cost based on the scope of work about twenty five thousand dollars oh you mean crazy i mean were you a pirate no no no that's way too high it's an inflated price you're greedy i'm not greedy and i'm not crazy like this is this is what it costs this is you know you've asked me to i mean it sounds like you guys know what the hell are you talking about okay all right i'm gonna ask you you be client okay what's your budget what have you got set aside for this project well i don't know all right this guy do you want me to ask what it is you want me to tell you what it costs uh ask me what it costs okay ask what's your budget or tell you what it costs yeah tell me what it costs uh right so you know for what you guys are looking for this is going to cost you 25 000 25 000 i mean you got to be kidding me i i would i know somebody i know somebody could probably do it for like five thousand dollars just as good probably faster sounds to me like the value's just not there for you well you know i i called you because i think you have a good reputation and i like the quality of your work i've seen what you've done but i don't think it's worth i don't think it's really going to cost twenty five thousand dollars come on i mean yeah it wants me like you don't have that much it's thing well there's tons at stake you know we've gotta change change the game we've to crush our competitor into little bits i mean it's a it's it's necessary it's very important all right so but but then why me why are you talking to me well we like what you've done we like your reputation we like your work we like your style people have said great things about you you come highly recommended so you you like the product that we put out you like a style you like a reputation and you get tons at stake and you don't want to pay me how does all that add up yeah i guess that's a good point and you we can end the scene you know you hope that that it works out that way well it does as a matter of fact now one or two things one thing is going to happen there were key points in what we talked about along the line which you kind of missed but that's the point you don't want the other side to see it okay [Music] now in any any in any business deal in any interaction there's a favorite and a fool you and if you don't know who the fool in the game is then it's you all right but what does that mean if you're the favorite you should never cut your price so the favorite is the one that's expected to win or you know maybe it's you know people want to go with it's the yeah the top top person if you look at and if you look at the way human beings make decisions you know do not underestimate the favorite and the fool because 20 of the time at least you're the poor okay which also means you got no business cutting your price right the only thing that you're there for is to give them a lower price for them to try to drive it down on the favor so you're the rat some people call that the rabbit the rabbit is you know you're going to run but you ain't going to win okay it was already a wig rigged game now how do i find out if i'm the favorite of the fool i ask you why me right now if i'm the favorite you're going to tell me that that's a surgical psychological strike and it's going to get me one of two answers all along either you will tell me why i'm the favorite or you'll immediately throw it back on me well that's up to you i don't know tell me since it's a psychological surgical strike when you throw it back on me i'm the fool again why am i cutting my price if i'm the fool i'm not gonna do that so i i gotta i gotta throw a diagnostic in the conversation to find out whether or not i'm the favorite of the fool now if i'm the favorite you could be distracted over price because there are lower prices but if you wanted them you'd be talking to them right you're talking to me yeah no it's a super good point and again another light bulb moment for me personally i think the favor or the fool it's critical to to really flesh out what's valuable to them because once you get them to talk about why you the answer might be uh you're young you're dispensable you have no experience and therefore you know i'm really after you know price i'm super price sensitive and you're the person that i think can get me this at the lowest price or it's the opposite you know uh jlo uh texted me and said that you're the guy and you know based on your reputation working with jlo that's who i want to do my project and so you know with assumptions that jlo has got budget it might not be about price anymore it might be about looking like jlo or you know some sort of higher quality standard that's not about price is that what you're saying you well you got to find out about what's really at stake you know what they really value yeah then at the end of the day i mean everybody's worried about their budget until you say this to them a professional is expensive an amateur costs a fortune and then people begin to remember you know like i could invent this wheel myself yeah you can it's going to take you 10 years and it's going to cost you 10 times what it costs to hire me right and that's that's when you get into real serious discussions about what would results really do for you what would they really do for you and then if if you're a professional who over delivers then whatever your price is because you over deliver will always be a bargain and black swan group we over deliver our prices are high now if you don't have enough at stake right now for example if you talk to if you want me to coach you and you don't have enough at stake i'm going to turn you on to everything we have and then you're gonna in a year you're gonna have enough at stake we're gonna need me to coach it because you can't afford me now i mean we were just sitting back you know chopping it up reminiscing about the good old days and all that you know i'm tracking my roots where i came from where i'm going all right so through these doors is the actual live set so let's go check it out this is a hot set um i know they just wrapped one pitch so we can go in and make a little bit of noise but this is where all the magic [Music] happens so this is the live set over here you have more than 26 cameras placed all the places jibs and cranes and i would assume there's a stage director calling all the cameras kind of like an nfl coach calls the plays but like he's playing camera one go camera two go you have all the editing happening over here with the sound boards and the mixers down this hallway is more the craft services but if you flip around real fast all right lori so that was lori she did a great job swooping in stealing barbara's deal but down that hallway is where craft services is and a lot of people are waiting um the entourage or the the fans of either the people pitching or there's other people attending and those people are all sitting down there too watching on monitors so it's really fun to kind of watch the show from behind the scenes too it's a very unique way of watching the show but you know that was like 45 almost an hour uh pitch that will be edited down to about seven minutes but still you know you're sort of you know very riveted to the screen it's very compelling and it's fun to watch so amazing very cool appearance i can stand on skill alone but i'm a package deal i can write the whole song and rap for real i got my head in the cloud with a pun intended i don't need to see nobody i don't want no visits introverted i just flirt with the music small circles how i choose it stay away from squares they the one that looked like a l7 i been doing this since i was 11 and the gets rid

Channel: Behind the Brand

Views: 32,178

Keywords: behind the brand, bryan elliott, chris voss, chris voss 60 seconds or she dies, chris voss audiobook, chris voss behind the brand, chris voss labeling, chris voss masterclass, chris voss mirroring, chris voss negotiation, chris voss negotiation example, chris voss never split the difference, chris voss salary negotiation, chris voss tactical empathy, chris voss ted talk, entrepreneur, never split the difference

Id: sWHdESZ69FI

Length: 30min 4sec (1804 seconds)

Published: Sun Nov 01 2020