Dune Review - Dusting Off a Legend

I'm dressed as Paul Atreides with the cuz who's from the Dune movies he's um he's a pretty he's a pretty this is the hardest board game review I've  had to do in years and that's because Dune is   a legend among table gamers first produced in  1979 by the team behind a little game called   Cosmic Encounter Dune is a war game based on Frank  Herbert's Dune novels if you've not read the Dune   novels then I fully recommend the first half  of the first book or you could watch the David   Lynch Dune movie which is also kind of bad or just  watch Jodorowsky's to you an amazing movie about   an amazing movie that was never actually made  by a man who hadn't actually read the book you know what  probably just wait for the new Dune movie coming   out in 2020 what matters is that in the '70s and  '80s this board game developed a cult following   it was ferocious and ornate and ornery and then  it fell into licensing hell and wasn't reprinted   for about thirty years until today this is the  fabulously affordable new edition of dune from   publishers gale force nine now I think that for  some gaming groups you'll try this and find that   it's the greatest board game you've ever played and  some people will buy it invite their friends over   and those friends will experience more friction  than if you'd filled their pants with sand I'm   just hoping that by the end of this video you  figured out where you lie on that spectrum so   Dune is a game free rather demanding four to  six players the box will tell you you can play   it with two or three in the same way that I guess  you could have a poker night with just two people   assuming you can breathe through the choking fumes  of mediocrity what players are going to be doing is   warring for control of the planet Dune playing  something like a Machiavellian King off the Hill   at the end of a round to win you have to control  three of these five dark-brown city spaces sound   easy well actually it can be the first of Dune's  1001 quirks is that you might put aside a whole   day to play it and then one strong player might  win before you've broken for lunch I reviewed   the Game of Thrones board game recently and got  frustrated by this bumper car experience where   players couldn't get eliminated but couldn't  really win either in Dune my gosh we are out of   the bumper cars and players are just lamping one  another this is a game so competitive that since   its release it has developed a tournament scene so  let's look at the details of this contest a round   of Dune consists of a whopping nine phases but  I'll just go through the important ones first in   the storm phase a storm journeys counterclockwise  around the board annihilating all armies it   passes over that aren't sheltering in rocks or  cities then you get a spiced blow on a random   territory spice is the game's currency it's why  you're on this planet and players will rush out   and collect it then you forget the main board for  a second and hold the spice auction for treachery   cards these are basically secret weapons of war  and you only find out what you are bidding on   after you've won an auction for a card then  there's the recovery phase where players pay   spice to recover destroyed troops from the tl- you  know what, i'm not pronouncing that then you can pay   spice to ship troops to the planet's surface  then you get one move on the surface just one   it's quite restrained quite chess like at the  end of the round any two armies that are sharing   a space have a battle which will always result  in at least one of you being again annihilated   and finally you check to see if any one player  is holding three of the five city on the board   and if they are they've won this treachery  deck by the way you almost need to explain   in full before the game starts partially cos the  cards range from some nuclear bombs to an actual   donkey but you also need to clearly point out  that most of the deck is made up of two kinds   of assassination tools poison and guns and then  the cards that keep you safe from those things Dune is an extremely demanding game to teach and not  just because it's complicated or because of all   of the weird rules that slavishly simulate  frank herbert's universe it's difficult to   teach because your friends will make mistakes and  then because the game is so all-or-nothing in its   conflict resolution when people forget rules  armies get lost but despite that your friends   are probably going to stick around because  depending on which faction they play they   will adore different phases of Dune every player  in Dune gets a faction with outrageous powers the   creepy clairvoyant playing House Atreides will  have the spice deck next to them and can always   peek at where the next blow will happen or when  one of Dune's deadly sand worms is going to show up just stay right there right there I've always wanted to ride a sand worm you - no, no no no no no come back come back come back come back we need to just hang on hang on just no no no no no right hang on it's a rubber suit the rubber of the suit has gone - House Atreides more importantly also knows what   every single one of these treachery cards is that  everyone else is blindly bidding on and can take   notes but only they can take notes as to which  player is holding what what I like to do when   I'm playing House Atreides I like to look at a  card and when I know it'll be useful to a certain   player I give that player a saucy wink and I  charge for that privilege because you see in Dune   players can and absolutely will pay each other  for things all the time and in fact all of this   money that players are bidding on these treachery  cards when someone wins the winning bid doesn't go   to the bank but to the emperor and when players  pay to ship troops to Dune they don't pay the   bank they pay the spacing guild the intergalactic  bus drivers of the universe think about that for   a second whenever any of the rest of you pay to  move troops to the planet all of that money goes   to one player if this game is starting to sound  like an incestuous nest of lubricated oligarchs   a) congratulations you might have what it takes  to survive here and b) it gets worse when you   start playing Dune a team of generals runs out  to meet you at your service but they might not   actually be at your service one of them might be  working secretly for another player maybe two of   them maybe four of them you see at the start of  the game everyone is dealt for traitor cards from   a deck containing every leader in the game when  you're going to pick one of them to secretly be   in your employ and if another player ever uses  that leader in battle against you the army is   led into an ambush and annihilated instantly and  that player loses their treachery cards it's awful and   the devious team at House Harkonnen get not  one traitor card but four and whenever they   buy a treachery card they get another one for free  and they can hold eight treachery cards so actually   fighting house Harkonnen has all the appeal of  bumping and grinding with a poison porcupine   perhaps now you can see the similarities between  Dune and Cosmic Encounter these faction powers   you all have are outrageous and fun but also  memorable when you're all out bidding one another   for treachery cards and then the emperor player  is giggling because you're just giving them more   and more money that's something that everybody's  going to be aware of and talking about from turn   one and this is I think part of the reason why  Dune has survived for so long despite being so   complicated it's just fun to learn but there is  a lot of learning involved and I don't just mean   the rules explanation you might not know this but  board games in 2019 are designed more and more to   be white-hot from the first time you play them  which is a response to more competition among   publishers but also people playing each of their  many games less frequently Dune crash landed on   my table like a grizzled time traveler who had  no time for hand-holding and so your first game   of it will be kaleidoscopic in its incompetence  you might be aware of Dune's catchphrase of "he who controls the spice controls the universe" but also "he who controls no spice controls...   nothing" literally nothing you'll struggle  to even control your temper if you're playing   one of the factions in Dune that can run their  economy into the ground because you get spice   from holding territory but if you fail to do  that then you don't have the spice to pay for   troops or cards if you run out of spice you can't  even play the game which is infuriating and yet   the spice Indian is as fascinating an economy as  I've seen in any board game and not just because   it flows freely between players even when you're  not busy greasing one another like morally bankrupt   bodybuilders but because spice has different  values to different factions let's recap how   many board games can you think of that start with  a blind auction where only one person knows what   you're bidding for where the units of currency are  different to different players and all of the bids   go to another player that's Dune and if you find  that exciting that is a very strong sign that you   should give this game a shot but if you find it  intimidating oh boy we need to talk about combat   a fight in Dune begins with two players being  handed these like that scene in a sci-fi movie   where you accidentally have to fight a duel but  you're handed a weapon you've never seen before but actually you should be nervous there are  about as many ways to screw up the battle wheel   as there are to fail your driving test so when a  battle begins the two players will secretly dial a   number from zero up to the number of soldiers they  have in the fight this is your strength you reveal   and the player with the highest strength wins the  fight all of the losers forces are eliminated but   the winner loses as many soldiers as they dialed  confused as to how to play this game? well, it's too late   we're moving on you also have to sock it one of  your leaders in the fight they're gonna add their   number to this but obviously higher leaders have  a higher chance of being held as traitors also   having a leader opens them up to being knifed  unless of course you've played the corresponding   defense card importantly if you reveal and your  leader is assassinated that takes them out of the   fight and the game you also want to watch out for  any opponent who's managed to score a laser gun   because this will kill your leader and you can't  ever stop it but you can play a shield and in the   fiction of Dune if a laser ever hits a shield it  causes a nuclear detonation that kills absolutely   everything look there's even some hieroglyphics on  the laser gun card which are either a warning or an   instruction manual depending on your temperament  here's the fun thing about the combat dials but   well actually they're just a fun thing in general  deciding how many troops to definitely lose and   which leader to deploy and what weapons not just  to risk losing because if you lose the fight you   lose your weapons but also to even let the table  know that you have it's like a delicious layer   cake of risk/reward but what I was gonna say is  that these battle wheels are fun because they're   kind of like Dune in miniature in that they're  fascinating and they're tense and so clever and   are just absolutely brutal and they're round I cannot stress this enough everybody is going to make bruising mistakes as they learn to play Dune  when the big play you've been planning for an hour   and a half ends with the flip of a combat dial  and you lose and in fact not only do you lose all   your forces and your leader gets killed you lose  your two best combat cards I wouldn't be surprised   if most people just check out of the experience  right there how much longer is left in this game   they'll ask and the answer could be ages because  while this version of Dune cuts the game down to   a merciful maximum of ten turns what's going  to compound the boredom of people sat around   the table is that because the forces and cards and  schemes all leave the planet but then just get put   back on again turn three can feel a lot like turn  six which can feel a lot like turn seven players   I think are not going to be used to the very 1980s  board game design sensation of losing a fight and   feeling like you haven't just been knocked down  a ladder but that you're hitting every rung on   the way down but personally when I screwed up in  Dune I kind of loved it and I was put in mind of   our review of classic game the War of the Ring  a game that was also old awkward and tediously   servile to the fiction it was simulating and yet  after our first long crap afternoon with it we   were hooked that game was a jewel that we were  slowly tugging out from behind all of our dirty   mistakes Dune is much the same thing players  are in for hours that feel like they're hiking   uphill but if you've got an eye for strategy  this game will yield to your examination like   you're turning a key in the lock and you can feel  all of the tumblers click over yes you just lost   your biggest army in a horrible battle but you can  see all of the decisions that led you up to that   point yes the Emperor is dominating their game  but that's because you've all been unthinkingly   handing them money every round for hours if there  is a reason that you will hate unit it's because   there is always another instance of your biggest  army being wiped out waiting for you around the   corner perhaps because of something as stupid as  you forgot about the super storm that is constantly orbiting the board but if there's a reason  you'll love Dune it's because this game lets   you be as cunning as a Bene Gesserit Witch the Bene Gesserit are what Star Wars ripped off to   make the Jedi they're also cooler than Jedi don't  @ me unless it's to say that you agree about the   Bene Gesserit in which case that's fine do you  remember at the start of the game you picked one   traitor from a hand of four there is a galaxy  brain moment playing Dune where of course the   three people you didn't pick aren't being held  by anyone and you could sell that information   to their employers that's just the best so much of  Dune is just the best if you told me this was your   favorite game I would say sure and you might think  I'm being condescending it's not true I just I've   got nothing to say to it it's somewhat inarguable  we haven't even talked about allies yet oh my god   alliances are the mechanic that Dune is maybe  the most famous for whenever a sandworm shows up well, whenever they do show up it's cause for all of  the games factions to AH right when that happens play enters a nexus phase and all of the players  can ally and this falls upon the game like gentle   desert rain because suddenly everyone's been  honest about their board states look how good   I've got this card I've got this much money and  you're trying to get the best ally you can because   when you ally those two players will be able  to win together not by controlling three cities   individually but between the two of them holding  four not only that they get a weak version of one another's special faction power that's theirs so  they become stronger and this is so exquisitely   funny and entertaining because whenever the  alliance phase ends you end up looking at a board   that's completely different because now of course  blue and red are working together and then when   another alliance phase happens the game only gets  better because your ally might break off and form   an alliance with your mortal enemy who's doing  better than you are and so you join up with their   mortal enemy I'm not being sort of exaggerative  when I say that Dune is the best it's genuinely   some of the most entertaining board gaming I've  ever had there was a card in the treachery deck   called truth chance and it just lets you ask any  player a yes or no question that they must answer   and after half an hour of staying my friend I  wouldn't attack them they played that card and   asked if I was really going to attack them and I  said yes and the table collapsed into hysterics   but despite this game's near mythical reputation  it wouldn't be a shut up and sit down review   without us bursting some bubbles like a bubble  bursting ... Matt, have you got the goof generator What happened to the old goof generator? Do you see this? Put your right hand in the box What's in the box? goofs What do you feel? Goofs bursting bubbles like a very dry boy whose parents were killed by bubbles yeah sure so some of Dune hasn't aged well but some of  it I'm pretty sure was bad even in the 80s let's   talk about this planet which is a hellish jigsaw  of oddly shaped territories that make movement   really weird but that's bearable what's way more  annoying is that the storm effects individual   pie segments so that even when you're within one  space you can be within two different areas of it   and then you have to teach all these fiddly rules  about when units can and can't move or fight based   on whether they are or aren't in the storm in the  segment of that it's annoying and then a weird side effect of the map having very important small  spaces and very big useless ones is that you need   these tiny playing pieces that feel like you're  nudging around stacks of fingernail clippings and   yet so much of the board is vacant but you know  what this is all small change compared to my real   criticism of Dune which is that you can either  play it in basic or advanced modes and both of   them are annoying okay over the decades that Dune has been around it has amassed a fair few optional   and expansion rules that should or shouldn't be  played with depending on who you ask an example   of a rule that I think most players are going  to think is bad is that when you're using the   battle wheel in addition to selling a number and  a leader and then having a card you also have to   spend spice for every soldier in the battle that  should count at full strength otherwise all of the   soldiers count at half-strength as if players  didn't have enough to worry about already you   can't even hold that much stuff with one hand  this swamps Dune with an additional layer of   hellish math but the point is that this mess of  extant rules around dune means there's no true   way to play the game now before this version of  Dune Fantasy Flight got the license for the   game but not the setting and put out a version  of dune called Rex set in the Twilight Imperium   universe Rex gets a lot of flack from diehard fans  of the original dune but what I liked about Rex   was that the designers cherry picked all of the  most fun ideas from Dune left out the stuff that   nobody liked and presented it as a single coherent  way to play we don't have that with this edition   what you get instead in this new edition of Dune  is a basic mode which is all most people will ever   play and then an advanced mode which is basically  like a warehouse for all of Dune's most tedious and   complicated rules every faction gets a new player ability then you get the advanced combat and increased   spice flow there's a special use of the Karama  card that is only written down in the manual   the reason that this is a problem though is that  in the advanced mode is some of the most Duney ideas in Dune there's the fact that the Fremen  get a whole deck otherwise unused of storm cards   so the faction that lives here knows exactly how  far the storm is going to move every turn that's   awesome the Harkonnen get to take prisoners when  they win a fight cementing their status as the   villains around the table that you just don't  want to fight or best of all the Bene Gesserit get   a power that whenever anyone ships any army to the  planet they always come with a helpful Bene Gesserit advisor who then becomes a soldier as soon as they  wander off by themselves which is interesting and   thematic and hilarious we should attack the city  tonight I'm sure of it sure my lord sounds great   yeah do you have to hold that like that close oh  it's no it's it's kind of a religious thing it's a   symbolic uh, um... Oh it's part of the - yeah - I, I didn't mean  any offense - oh, it's fine just, just, if you could just   keep I just I'd advise you keep looking that way  just keep looking that way - of course - and uh, for now   until just waiting until... look I get it I understand  that these basic in advanced modes will gale-force   ninth best case scenario for pleasing everybody  who's been waiting 30 years for a new version   of Dune while also ensuring that all of the rules  are balanced because you're playing with none of   the extra stuff or all of it but for people like  me and probably people like you this decision is   just annoying if I play basic then I'm leaving all  of these cool components and ideas that I paid for   in the box and if I play advanced I'm teaching  all of my friends these rules that demonstrably   make the game slower without making it better  and in another example of Gale Force Nine being   perhaps afraid of change Dune has 36 characters  35 white people and a raisin which shows a real   lack of imagination when the rest of the game is  almost entirely brown and this is despite Dune   having so many Arabic sounding naming conventions  the characters in the books declare actual jihads   one of the factions are a desert people and they  have announced the casting of the 2020 Dune movie   and it's way more representative of what you'd  expect from this setting in a way that leaves   this feeling jarring finally and this is perhaps  unforgivable considering how old this game is but   Dune is full of rules queries that the thin manual  makes no effort to answer for example the Karama   cards that everybody can get stop anyone use of  a player's power but the Emperor's power is that   they are rich so can you stop them from spending  money or the Bene Gesserit has an amazing ability   because don't forget so much of Dune is amazing  they can pick a faction that's gonna win and a   turn they're gonna do it and this is completely  secret but if that faction wins on that turn the   Bene Gesserit win instead that's great but can you use  a Karama card on it because the game is already   over at that point additionally in a deviation - oh  thank you very much - from most board games deals   that you make in Dune if you pay a player that  much money and say you'll do this right that is   binding which is great fun but then what that means is that if the circumstances around   that deal change then do you still pay them the  money if I say I'm gonna pay you money and you   if you do this then you half do this do I pay  you half the money that's pretty enough Matthew   thank you very much oh that's gone right to the  gentleman vegetables oh I can't even stand *up* so finally we arrive at the question of should you  buy Dune which is so difficult for me to answer   that I will be eternally grateful to Gale Force  Nine for making this edition affordable they're   not some cash grab full of miniatures plastic  first player tokens or whatever this box is   just $40 which makes it that much easier for  me to say that if your group is interested in   heavy games why not just buy it and try it but  if you're still on the fence then I would have   you ask yourself how often do you really play  the board games that you have I always say that   with Twilight Imperium you can play that game just  once or twice and it's so memorable and fun that   you feel like you got your money's worth with Dune  as I've said I feel like it hues a lot closer to   the War of the Ring where your first game may  well be this uncomfortable enervating disaster   but on repeat plays with the same group you can  get rid of that friction and enjoy a smoother   more entertaining experience that is up there with  the best that board gaming has to offer but War of   the Ring only requires that you find one other  like-minded person with Dune you're looking at   four or ideally five other people and that is  a huge ask so for me I think I'm going to be   keeping Dune I think I'm gonna be all the happier  for having this in my collection I think this game   is a masterpiece but like a lot of masterpieces I  don't know what this game is going to be good for   aside from making me feel good but also gathering  dust that's the end of the review can I get in   a bath now, can I get in a bath - uhh - please? - what, in my bath? yes uh, ok fine, you go ahead and get in the bath I'll, I guess I'll ... wooo wo wo wo wo wo wo wo wo - uh, hey you know what's happening in October? It's SHUX it's the Shut Up & Sit Down convention and we are getting really excited  for it it's the biggest convention in Canada and   we work super hard to make it the friendliest board game convention around if you're interested   there's a couple of videos right on one side  of my head probably one of them is a little   bit of information telling you what SHUX is and the other is an update with all the funnest   stuff that we've added to it just in the last  month I hope that I'll see some of you there!

Channel: Shut Up & Sit Down

Views: 913,465

Rating: 4.8922415 out of 5

Keywords: Shut Up and Sit Down, SUSD, SU&SD, Board Game Review, Review, Board Games, Board Gaming, Boardgame, Board Game, Gaming, Tabletop, Fun Games, Quintin Smith, Matt Lees, Dune

Id: O6BKjk_2UTE

Length: 28min 27sec (1707 seconds)

Published: Fri Aug 30 2019

Reddit Comments

[u/thesupermikey]

Right off the bat, I want to say this may be SUSD's best looking review.

[u/boardgamebarrage]

When you listen to Quinns talk about board games that he likes, it is infectious. You start smiling and then start itching to play whatever game is he talking about.

[u/TheMadDoc]

I have pretty much no chance at all of ever getting my group to play this, but I love the books AND I WANT THE GAME SO BAD. I think I'm going to end up buying it just to have it.

Edit word

[u/mrquinns]

i dunno who this guy is but dang he has some correct opinions on the bene gesserit

[u/ZeroCalorieBacon]

I’d love a video or two of Quinns talking about some of his favorite science fiction books. The opinion that the only good part of the dune (book) series is the first half of book one is controversial at best.

Loved the review!

[u/[deleted]]

V good review. Nailed the balance of humour and content. This is one of those "if only games" I'd like to pretend I'd find time and a group to play with a few times but probably never will

[u/GunPoison]

Was the Silk review just an excuse to establish the characters of Worm and Goof Generator for this review?

[u/BrettAlanMiller]

I am out of the loop I didn’t even know they were finally reprinting this

[u/nicktherat]

I get my copy today. Did the internet come up with the ideal mix of basic and advanced rules yet?