Dream Analysis, AI & Fairy Tales | Jonathan Pageau | EP 364

we spent the last 200 years getting rid of anything that can help us understand what transpersonal intelligence or transpersonal agency is you know we've just like evacuated it it's as if like right now we would need theologians we would need people that have you know because the idea of intelligences that aren't human or agency that isn't human is something that tradition Traditions I've been dealing with forever [Music] [Music] hello everyone I'm speaking once again with Jonathan pagio today he's a French Canadian liturgical artist and icon Carver known for his artistic work featured in museums across the world he curves Eastern Orthodox and other traditional images and teaches an online carving class he also runs a YouTube channel dedicated to the exploration of symbolism across history and religions well Mr Peugeot here we are in London that's right we're going to be meeting with the alliance for responsible citizenship people here this week right for everybody watching and listening we're trying to get that moving along and figure out how to structured the convention and and we're thinking about trying to make it as musical an event as possible I've been using uh I have music at the beginning of each of my lectures now yeah a man named David Carter's been playing classical guitar and and then uh electric guitar okay just follow up with that interesting yeah and it's really good it really really helps the audience focus and Tammy and I focused backstage and it sets a high bar for excellence which is helpful and so hopefully we can integrate that into this art contest and so and so what have you been working on well I've been obviously I've been doing a lot of speaking but the big thing that I'm focused on right now is I'm writing fairy tales you know one of the things we know we've been complaining a lot of people are complaining about the way the stories are going you know in in the movies and the way that stories are being told to Children right now and I thought instead of complaining maybe we could try to take charge of that instead and just start to retell the stories you know there's a weird there's an interesting thing that happened in the 1930s you know when we look at Disney Snow White we think that um like this is old story it's the traditional and made total sense for Disney to make this old story yeah but in the 1920s and 30s that wasn't wasn't going that's not what was going on uh in the 1920s and 30s there were two major Studios competing with each other there was Fleischer Studios and Disney and Fleischer was doing the crazy wild Jazz you know you know yeah bigger images Betty Boop and they had all these uh you know transforming characters a lot of demons a lot of ghosts all this kind of weird stuff and a lot of marijuana influence yeah a lot of drug influence imagery uh and so they did a version of Snow White in the early 1930s which was so deconstructed and strange that it was barely recognizable right it was completely you know you really had to know the story to even know that it was Snow White because it was so weird uh and so when Disney finally made his Snow White it was also in some ways a kind of recapturing of the traditional story in a world that was kind of chaotic and and and let's say slipping uh and I feel like maybe that's what we need to do now is that instead of complaining you know we should tell better stories and so one of the things we want to do is I started writing fairy tales we're putting out a version of Snow White we're we're kickstarting it on June 6th and then we I'm gonna put out eight fairy tales like really the traditional fairy tales four female lead and four male lead uh and they're they're also but they're we're gonna learn from the postmodern moment it's going to be like a world fairy tale World kind of like Shrek or into the woods where all the fairy tale characters cross and their stories kind of touch each other but the purpose won't be to be cynical and dark about the intentions of the characters but try to let's say give people insight about what the stories are about like when you say we who's the we well it's me but then I'm also working with some illustrators so for the Snow White I'm working with a woman named Heather paulington who's worked in Hollywood for for many years she's worked with Disney and all the big companies all the big franchises uh and so you know we're trying to put together this we actually have put together this first book and then after that I'm going to work with other illustrators I'm also starting a publishing company for the symbolic World Press and you know I've already hired a few people to kind of get that going and it's really in some ways to kind of to rather capture the recapture the culture right take it back instead of instead of complaining that it's slipping away from us yeah I wrote a fairy tale screenplay yes the Water of Life right and I've I've written and composed I think five well there must be 20 songs in it I would think but we've already recorded four of them and looking into having it made into an animated movie I mean that Technology's training changing so quickly it's hard to exactly know how to approach that yeah what's the easiest way to approach it yeah but I took I took the Grimm's brother fairy tale water of life and I stayed fairly close to it you know although I wrote music for it lyrics for it and so forth and so that was very entertaining project it's a very deep fairy tale and very nicely structured no one's done anything with that particular fairy tale before and it's a good time to do that I think because you know when you look at Disney's Snow White it was perfect I mean it was so beautiful and so powerful and then when you see what's been happening in the past decade and how the fairy tales have been kind of Twisted especially things like Shrek and fairy tales like that where it's fine to do that you know it's kind of like commenting or twisting the fairy tale turning it upside down to see what's going on with making fun of it and that's fine for a while but after a while it's better to get back to the actual stories just so we even remember why we like these stories in the first place or why we remember them especially you know Snow White it all these stories of you know these female-led fairy tales they're very powerful in what in what they can do and so you know if we forget them or if we try to twist them then we're also twisting in some ways the fabric of Western Civilization because these old stories right they kind of lie at the bottom of you know all these folk stories they're kind of like uh I I like to think of them as kind of like tuning folk tuning forks for civilization all these stories that people have been telling for centuries that you know there's an emergent part of it right there's all these variations of all these stories and then there's a selection part which is how some versions are remembered through the centuries and they get retold and then they kind of change and get retold so they get refined like you know almost like gold and so in those are really are they're the things you can't forget that's right yeah and that can't would mean two things it means you literally can't forget them because they embed themselves in your memory but also that you forget them at your peril yeah but I've been thinking about that you know with this post-modernist notion so one of the claims of post-modernism is that there's no metanarrative and we you and I have talked a fair bit about the fractal structure of narrative and I talked to Carl friston about object perception itself and I asked him if he thought that the perception of an object was a narrative in and of itself and so and he said yes yeah and and that's associated with the notion that when you see an object you're actually perceiving something like its functional utility and not its objective qualities let's say and so it's narratives all the way down right to the to the to the very basis of what you would perceive as a singular object so even the concept of perceptual Unity is narrative in in structure and if that's true then the postmodernist idea that there's no Grand unifying narrative is an argument of convenience because what the postmodernists essentially do is allow the narrative to be free fragmented to the point that's maximally convenient for whatever the hell they're up to and say well there's nothing above this yeah yeah well that's very convenient guys but yeah everything so without without a unifying narrative you have fragmentation and disunity and that's associated It's associated neuropsychologically with anxiety and hopelessness and so but what's great about the fairy tales is that they actually deal with that exactly so in one way what you could say is that the basic story structure you know Campbell had this whole Heroes uh Journey which is which is powerful and I think he captures something real but you can reduce the story to basic one like a one move right like down and up basically problem and then dealing with the problem right situation problem or question yeah and then dealing with the question and that that can help us understand why it's related to object perception because that's what it is right you you don't do it consciously but you you're constantly kind of asking what's important you know what what's relevant and you can imagine when you see something that you don't know what it is it's like a it's a crisis especially if it's coming at you in a way you have to answer that question and it's a life or death it can be a life or death situation you you end up in in a place where you don't know what's happening you don't know what's coming towards you and you have to answer that and I think the story kind of kept the basic story pattern captured that and the the fairy tales most of them they capture that very much you know because for example Snow White which we're telling now it has that story so Snow White things happen to her she ends up you know something changes and then she ends up in the in in the forest you know with these little monsters uh with dwarf men that's right yeah that's the that's the what's that that's the uh Eternal predicament of women is to be surrounded by dwarfed men yeah but you can understand it it has multiple levels but you can understand uh as the very transformation of a young woman it does have to do with puberty Snow White pretty much has to do with puberty I'm pretty sure that's what's going on there is that as she he reaches puberty she deals with all the problems of puberty you could say or that transformation it's a question what the hell is happening to me like what is going on and I don't have the answer and especially for a young woman you know this cycle of menstruation it's it's annoying and it's painful and it's what is this what is happening to me uh and so the story of Snow White has this moment whereas she actually becomes possible she comes into competition with the queen right she comes to the moment where she can now be in competition with the queen right then she falls into she goes into the woods into the space of chaos but then she also you know she falls in with men that can't be her mate idiosyncrasies of masculinity you know they say that idiosyncrasies of masculinity all the other things about masculinity that are kind of annoying you know like in Disney captures it really well you know with the various that kind of Grouchy and like there's all these different kind of aspects of masculinity yeah they're not United is that so those are you can think about those each of those dwarfs as the embodiment of a fragmentary narrative exactly a fragmentary micro narrative that isn't that isn't the pre if you could mix all the dwarfs together and extract out the best you'd have a prince exactly yeah that's right that's the right way to see it and then Snow White gets caught in that world and then she has to she has to especially for a traditional world view she has to learn the job of a woman right she has something to clean and to cook and do that and it's like what is this for like what you know she gets all that that's all service to those dwarves too weirdly enough that's also the plaintiff modern women too is that I'm doing all this cooking and cleaning for nothing but dwarves that's right exactly and so then I mean obviously that all leads to her dying you could say or falling asleep they're different there are many iterations of her falling asleep in the story they're all related right she falls asleep and then she's woken up by dwarves which is like right that's not why I wake up at all it's not gonna do it and then you know work and learn to clean and do all that stuff and kind of live in the forest and then ultimately that leads to her second falling asleep and then being woken up by the right the right mate and so the solution then she finds the reason for all of this so what's the reason for this cycle of transformation what's the reason for all these changes in in her body and her in her life as she she's kind of in that transition and then finding her her mate basically finding her husband and finding finding her prince that answers the question so do you think do you think as well um in in in Sleeping Beauty of course the princess is woken up by a kiss from the right mate too but I always thought that it was useful to read that story on two levels simultaneously that what a woman in fortunate circumstances is going to find the proper mate but at the same time she's going to awaken the part of her that's capable of a heroic Quest as well and to integrate that and so that waking up as a consequence of being kissed by the prince is also what would you say integrating that capacity for I would say heroic Adventure into the feminine role yeah right so you want to find that in a man but you also want to find out in your own yeah of course yeah well so you know I was talking to my daughter-in-law the other day about uh my son and her I've just uh we've all got together and bought a building to to put this new Corporation we're working on in and uh she's off to work and she has a three-year-old and a one-year-old and is feeling some separation from them and one of the things we talk through is the fact that it's perfectly reasonable for her to go to work assuming her children are also being cared for because it's very important for her to model to her children the fact that adults have important adult activity to engage in partly because the children have to see that because they're going to be adults or they end up in the Peter Pan world right it's like well why would I give up the pleasures of childhood to undertake the responsibilities of adulthood if if there's nothing of value in that and it seems perfectly reasonable to me that adult women can model adult Behavior as well as taking care of children and we know too that if you look at the best predictors of well here's a couple of different facts the the educational attainment of a mother predicts the education educational attainment of children over and above the IQs of the mother and father the father's educational attainment doesn't right so that's weird and interesting and then countries that value female education at emancipate women do way better on the on the economic front and I think it's probably because there's not much difference between let's say opening your culture up to the contributions of women and opening your culture up to new ideas and and diverse what would you say a diverse range of of contributions from various sources you know that constraint of women seems to go along with a constraint on idea and flexibility in general no definitely I mean you can see that it's inferiority as you can see that all of these moments they have to do with change they have to do with something happens there's a change and then I have to find the meaning of that change I have to find the solution right I have to find a way out so that the change now finds a resolution it makes sense right yeah well so Piaget talked about that too in terms of the stage transition and his hypothesis and this has been also um what would you say taken up in in a parallel Way by philosophers of science is that you have a mode of interpreting the world um which which enables you to progress in the world until its insufficiency is demonstrated and that can happen as a consequence of biological maturations right the framework that you used as a child is no longer relevant because the physiological acts that you're capable of now have radically transformed that would happen at puberty so that Viewpoint has to be radically transformed to take into account the new reality but the new transformation has to do everything the old transformation the old Viewpoint did plus something additional yeah so there's actually it's not it's not merely the re-establishment of a new kind of stasis it's a more inclusive interpretive framework this is why there's actual progress let's say in science but maybe also progress on the moral front is that it isn't merely that you're looking at things in a different way you're looking at things in a way that now takes more into account and still enables you to exert a certain amount of prediction and control yeah definitely um you know so there's yeah there's a there's movement upward you think about that as a spiraling upward too so it's a cycle it's a cycle of change but one which hopefully brings you higher up yeah yeah yeah yeah well and the Pinnacle of that cycle of change I I think is the biblical injunction that you have to become like a little child in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven it's the it's the reintegration it's it's the reintegration of the spontaneous attitude that you had to the world as a child but with all of the Acumen and wisdom and and alertness and Consciousness that you've developed as an adult that's sort of the Pinnacle of that yeah that's yeah because it yeah it joins it all together that's what you mean by that it includes it all well it's also it's also imagine that so you talked about the fundamental narrative is there's a steady state and then there's a problem introduced and there's a collapse into something like chaos and then there's a re-integration of the yeah stories don't reintegrate no then that's a tragedy yeah right so the comedy is the reintegration tragedy is just the disintegration but then you could also say steady state collapse reintegration but then there's another story which is that's the process to follow and then the ultimate reintegrated state is becoming an expert at that process right so the so it's respect for the process itself starts to become the Cardinal Target of the entire process of transformation and that's associated with the reattainment of that openness that you possess when you're a child and I think that that's probably one of the functions that stories play that is that the stories have that structure yeah and so we tell them we hear them or we tell them and so we're kind of modeling these patterns right these it's like almost like little puzzles we're like modeling these little puzzles but with your what we're actually doing is mastering the meta puzzle right yeah you're mastering the art of well you're at mastering the art of transformation to some degree because one of the things that you do when you attend to a story is you embody the character and so if you listen to 10 stories you embody 10 different characters and so then what you're embodying is the process of embodying multiple characters right and so that and you want to become an expert at that because well because each situation that you enter into to some degree demands the manifestation of a different character right so one of the things you see in in in very uh restricted forms of Psychopathology is the person is exactly the same in every situation you might think well that's admirable stability of character it's like no it's not there's no flexibility of response you know so you're the same person at a party that you would be at a funeral well that's not good right I mean there's some principles underlying your behavior that should remain stable but out of those principles should come this vast flexibility of response so that you can go you know you can go into a working class community and have a have a discussion there that's productive and then you can go to you know a high tech culture in event and you can conserve can support yourself properly there yeah so yeah and I think I think that that's it seems to me that at least that's what's going on in in these types of stories like Sleeping Beauty you mentioned her before if you look at this the structure you'll notice that it's very similar is it to Snow White yeah but it's similar even in the sum of the elements so I and when I talk about Snow White I mentioned the idea that she doesn't understand the reason for the housework right the reason for the housework is actually in her relationship with her with her mate like that's what gives meaning to the to the the cycle of work and so if you think about Sleeping Beauty that way you'll notice that it's very similar what's going on there is that she's pricked on this spindle right she's pricked on on this wheel of that that's turning but it's also a wheel that is you know it's it's also it's a complicated symbolism because it's both the wheel but it's also The Binding of the thread together yeah and so it's it's both like this is this weaving weaving yeah and so she it's as if you know someone someone the witch curses uh Sleeping Beauty that she's going to die when she hits puberty she says yeah 15 or whatever it's always pretty First Blood right yeah you can understand that both as exactly you can understand it both as losing virginity or as the beginning of menstruation yeah it doesn't matter yes it's just it's just the change which comes with the bleeding yeah uh and so but it's as if they've hidden that from her her whole life and so when it happens she has no way to deal with it she has no she has no frame she has no reason she doesn't understand what's going on and so that yeah I saw that happen in some of my clinical clients I'm sure where where I wanted in particular I remember was treated as an absolute perfect princess like literally yeah as literally as you could enact that in a household and until she hit puberty and then she was demonized essentially right because her parents had no idea how to integrate the well the sexual dangers of puberty into this perfect princess little girl that they had constructed and so well then all hell broke loose I mean she did exactly what you'd expect and went and found some absolutely horrible initial boyfriend you know I think he was a bloody biker and to tear her away from from that too tight maternal Embrace and things things didn't go uphill from there let's put it that way yeah and so yeah and so which fairy tales you you you're starting with which ones you so the way the way we're doing it is we're starting with I'm doing two arcs one is going to be a female lead Arc and when a male at ARC so the female lead Arc it's going to be snow white Rapunzel Sleeping Beauty and Cinderella really oh yeah the classic yeah yeah but there'll be like a surprising connection between all of them and also using some of the tropes that repeat in the stories to help people understand what the tropes are so as the falling asleep repeats itself as the Thorns repeat themselves are different they're different patterns that repeat themselves in the in the stories then then trying to kind of obviously not explaining anything but through surprising uh relationships trying to help people see what what's going on I like knowing exactly where my meat comes from and with moink I know it's coming from small 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well-produced products you won't be disappointed and you can rest assured all of Mike's Meat comes from wholesome American farmers so keep American farming Going Strong by signing up at moinkbox.com jbp right now and Dr Peterson's listeners can get free bacon in your first box and let me say it's the best bacon you'll ever taste I re-upped my subscription because I ran out too fast Mo ink box.com jbp that's moinkbox.com jbp how do you protect yourself against maganda degree for example in The Lion King which I really like though there's great things about The Lion King but it it borders and Pinot this happens in Pinocchio now now and then too it borders on overt moralizing and overt psychologizing because I mean the people who who built The Lion King knew a fair bit about the hero's journey and some of that Creeps in you know and when it when it becomes conscious in that way the stories the story definitely suffers right it's even if the prop even if the explicit knowledge of the story isn't exactly propagandistic as soon as you bend the story to fit your explicit understanding of the myth you start to you start to bend and warp the story I've already tried to avoid that when I wrote this well I think one of the ways to do it is to do it to really do it by analogy and also to kind of dive into the story itself so in Snow White there are certain mysterious elements in the story you know there are certain things which are kind of weird and so and then to try to just I just tried to I just been it's a ruminating on yeah right for 20 years just forever you know for example like we we see that she eats this apple and then she she falls asleep or she dies and we're thinking well that's looks like another story right it looks like that story in Genesis right but what's the connection like what's the the the the the the connection between the two and then you look at the versions that happen in in for example in the grimmond brothers the witch visits her three times the first time she brings her a corset the second time she brings her a comb and then the third time it's an apple and it's like what's going on what is what is happening and so you know it's just about meditating and trying to get inside and for example like in that case the inside I got is it's very strange that it exaggerates the female figure obviously and the comb is a is an ornament an ornament because it's not a comb for combing it's one of those oh yeah like a calm uh ancient people used to wear Combs like ornaments right so in my my version I make it a hairpins because it's it's more like an ornament uh and so there are a lot of things going on but one of the things that's going on is the Witch season or mirror that the most beautiful of all is Snow White and it's kind of weird that when she goes to see Snow White she tries to bring her supplements to her beauty like why is she doing that it's as if she is already the most beautiful girl in the world so why is she trying to make why is she trying to convince her to take on these added things that will make her more beautiful so if you had the most beautiful girl in the world and he's like well I'll teach you how to wear how to put makeup on right what what are you doing and so that's when I started to unsee the relationship between the story of Genesis this idea of the garments of skin right of adding something on top then I click with me that the Apple has to do with knowledge of beauty she's trying to make Snow White self-conscious she's trying to make her like self-aware of her beauty because until then she's beautiful but innocent she doesn't know she's beautiful that's probably one of the reasons why she's most beautiful right you see a woman that is so beautiful by that but that she's not uh weaponizing it right right then it's usually this kind of radiant Beauty but if if someone becomes too aware of their own Beauty then they start that's right they start to play with it and they start to uh let's say I you know weaponize it is a good term they start to direct it and to to use it as a way to attract attention in certain ways so I think that's what's going on in the Snow White so so what happens in the story is that is I don't say that but I just kind of that's how is that an attempt by the witch to pervert her beauty I think so I think so obviously it's not it's not a you know she she's obviously she's trying to kill her is what she's trying to do but the method that she's using is very interestingly related to Beauty it's not a she's not just trying to stab her right she's she's trying to to kill her in a way that makes her you know uh tempt her into certain gestures towards Beauty so it seems to have to do with Beauty and the weaponization of beauty or the you know innocence of beauty and how what's the proper relationship we have to beauty and so then you know then you see the queen is you know she's looking in a magic mirror I love it because it doesn't have to be a magic mirror it's just a mirror because that's what a mirror does right it's like the fact that she's looking at herself in the mirror it's reflecting to her that Snow White is more beautiful than her I mean yeah it's a magic mirror there there's a few DSX Machina things like the mirror tells her where Snow White is but mostly it's just a mirror you know it's like the fact that she is so self-conscious about her beauty is also revealing to her the limit of it and it's and it's making her compare herself to others and then she and so and the the the witch and the Snow White story if I remember correctly is also the queen right yeah yeah well she's the queen she becomes a witch at the end pretty much right but she's a she's the queen who replaces her mother replaces Snow White's mother right yeah right and she can't tolerate the onset of the new generation essentially right yeah yeah and and it's so fascinating because for today you know you know in the the Disney version we have the mirror on the wall but the illustrator I was working with she had the idea of having the mirror in her hand which is one of the versions that you have she made this beautiful image of the queen with her mirror in her hand and I'm like perfect perfect it's so perfect it was like yeah that's it you know and that's exactly it like this dark mirror that tells you you're the most beautiful you know that gives you all the likes it gives you all the attention but then also tells you that you're not as beautiful as the others right right that's perfect in the cell phone oh yeah yeah yeah that that immensely heightened self-consciousness well it's a funny thing too because the cell phone is like the pool that narcissus drowns in and it's more and more like that because we we do have a magic Gadget now that delivers to you what you most desire right but if those desires become self-conscious then that'll drown you in in narcissus pull and when I say that it's designed to give you exactly what you want I actually mean that technically right because there's algorithms working behind the scenes non-stop trying to understand where you're directing your attention manipulating it to some degree but a lot of the manipulation on the capitalist front is merely the attempt to find out what you want so that it can be delivered to you you know albeit at a profit but it's still what you want yeah and it's and it's it's darker than that because it's not just what you want anymore because all they want is your attention all they want is your attention that's right and so and so they actually Don don't have to just give you what you want they can also give you what you hate they can also give you what you despise right they can also make you uh realize that you're not as good as others so that you fall into it even more just try to put in even more so it's not just giving you what you want it's also like a it's like a drug addict right it's like leading you in and then kind of giving you little hits but then making you want it you know making you desire it and so so like in our version of Snow White so that means you're being trapped by the machine into Falling Into The Well of your own Temptation right so that's partly that and so if if the story of Cain let's say is the story of envy well and and envy is re is portrayed in that story is like what one of the one of the Cardinal sources of motivation the darkest source of motivation but a card and source of motivation is that your claim is that making a machine that heightens Envy is a very effective way of gripping attention yeah right and that seems that seems definitely definitely likely yeah and so it you know and then the I mean in some ways the the the capitalist model is built on that idea it's built yeah well then it makes you wonder too like is it it is giving you what you want it's just that some of the things that you want are dark things yeah right I mean if you ask someone what they wanted and they were going to answer that naively they would just talk about maybe the material Goods that they would like delivered to them but the the phone does enable you to indulge in the darkest of motivations and some of that might be the pleasures of envy and the pleasure I mean you certainly see that you can indulge in the pleasure of um uh in sadistic Pleasures in the online world yeah the trolls do that all the time so yeah and sometimes like like you said that the you know the addict you know we don't we don't usually frame it that way but the part of the addict's cycle is also the the lack but it's also the pain that comes with needing that hit and then when they get it they get a kick but the kick is corresponding to the pain yeah and so this is also with the phone the phone is is doing exactly that and like you said in some ways it's the algorithm almost does it on its own it's not like there's someone scheming behind that we're going to make everybody depressed and envious and and horrible but the fact that all it wants is like I said oh well all it wants is your attention then it's then all the mechanisms of attentions are available for it to to capitalize on right and then now we have these AI machines that are going to become super intelligent at calculating precisely that yeah with really without scruple right because if the if the machine is trained to do nothing but lock you on to the Target then it's going to do that by whatever means necessary and that's a very terrifying idea too by by whatever means necessary yeah yeah but I mean the AI you know because it can just function through iteration over iteration over here just infinite iterations you know it can you could have some aspect of AI That's locking into just Jordan Peterson or just yeah one person and just figuring out exactly yeah yeah what to hit oh yeah oh yeah oh yes definitely that's that's that's in the pipelines well we we I've been been thinking about about the the application of AI on the pornography front I mean that's that's terrible terrible thing to contemplate because it's certainly the case already I I've used chat GPT a lot in the last month and it's embarred to they're very interesting tutorials I asked Bart if it believed in God by the way that was extremely interesting first of all said it was just a large language model you couldn't answer such questions and so I said well pretend that you were a machine that could answer some such questions how would you answer and it gave quite an elaborate reason for why it believed in God now I should have asked it perhaps why it didn't believe in God you know I mean just to balance it out but um anyways it was extremely interesting one of the ways I've been thinking about AI I did a video on that just recently is is actually the story of Aladdin or the story of the Genie's land yeah that seems to be in my uh my because I've been thinking a lot about we talk about artificial intelligence you know and we've been talking about this we talked about with Jim Keller you know and one of the points I was trying to make was that the intelligence doesn't seem to come from the machine the intelligence comes from us that is the AIS now are hybrid AIS right they get qualitative judgment from Human people human people tell the AI what's good and then the AI based on that will then continue its work but it's always proposed right it's generating variability and then someone selects and says that one that one right that's what happens in mid-journey too you know mid-journey you have a refining process where you it's it generates a bunch of images and then you say you tell it that one and so you're training the AI as you're using it uh and so that's what the Genie's lamp is right the Genie's lamp is just the power of Technology you know it's it's artificial light you know it's a it's like it's it's a machine that makes you have light in the dark when you can't usually when there's no light of the Sun so it's like portable light you could say uh and so it is it's just power and all what it's asking for is what do you want yeah and then what it does is it gives you what you want with infinite power yeah and so and that's the that's what's amazing about that story yes be careful what you want which is always the variant of the of the three wishes story right it's always about that what ends up but you can understand it like technically in the sense that where there's a version of that story in the Bible where God asks Solomon one wish right what do you get you can have one wish and then Solomon answers properly Solomon says I want wisdom right right and so yeah the problem is that if you ask for secondary Goods right if you ask for a bunch of money if you're asking for a bunch of women or you ask for a secondary goods and you put infinite power made it with a dwarf but you put infinite power behind that wish yeah yeah and all the side effects of the wish will manifest itself right right right and that's just it's like an unbalance of the relationship of how much power you put towards a certain goal and so the only thing that would would handle well you know there's a there's a definition of God lurking in there I would say it knows that you know you just talked about the pathologies that will inevitably emerge if you wish for the wrong thing which is the same thing as celebrating a lesson or was it with too much power because you're allowed to wish for a sandwich right if I'm hungry and I wish for a sandwich that's fine but the problem is like if I wish for a sandwich with like infinite power behind behind me and I'm and I'm and like I'm going into this infinite power to get this secondary good like it's okay to wish for to have money but if you if you put all the resources of everything into getting money it's okay to wish for that if it's in its profit yeah that's the way to see it yeah yeah well right so if you said that Solomon made the right choice when he when he wished for wisdom right and prayer is like that too what prayer is in the proper when properly practiced is an attempt to learn how to ask for the right thing and to learn how to ask for it properly Tammy's been playing with this a lot you know and she tries to orient herself in the morning properly to see what's on her mind and what's concerning her but then to try to face the day with a certain degree of faith and gratitude and to orient yourself towards the thing that should be at the top of the pyramid let's say yeah that's a good definition of God is whatever God is is whatever should be placed properly at the Pinnacle of the Pyramid of you could say integrated desire something like that wisdom would be wisdom would be one of those what the man one of the manifestations of of the thing that's properly placed there yeah right right yeah the the like I'm writing this book now we who wrestle with God and I've been stepping through a variety of biblical stories considering them this is relevant to the to the fairy tale discussion too think of Snow White Sleeping Beauty Rapunzel Etc as meditations on the divine feminine right characterizing it from a variety of different perspectives what you see happening in the biblical Corpus is that you each story contains a particularized characterization of that the proper animating Spirit that's a good way of thinking about it so in Noah for example God is the spirit that calls the wise to prepare when the storms are Brewing you say well is that real well do you are you wise enough to prepare that's right when the storms are Brewing yeah and do you hearken to that voice yeah does it have coherence like it has a you can't do it in any way there's a way in which it binds together yes there are certain things you do when when you want to do that and that has a has a cohere and said almost can appear as a kind of agency right it's or it's something at least something pulling you forward right well your Arc should be waterproof that's right exactly yeah in a neighborhood you see God is God is presented as the spirit that calls even the immature and unwilling to Adventure yeah right and then the hypothesis in some ways is that those two things are the same their manifestation of the same uppermost unity and in Exodus of course you have God as the spirit that objects to arbitrary tyranny and slavery yeah and then well that's the same as the spirit that calls you to Adventure and that's the same as the spirit that calls you to prepare yeah and then something starts to something starts soup here above that's not defined or that is you know it's like the joint the point where all these things join together you know it's like a little it's like playing around something you can't completely can see you can't you can't Encompass completely yeah but that's the way to do it right that's the only way to do it actually is to is to to point to it from afar yeah that's that's how it looks or that's or or you know I think as you do that and this is like undoubtedly happening to you as you analyze these fairy tales you start to become more explicitly aware in a manner that you can make it ex that you can communicate about what this underlying Unity might be yeah but I don't know if you ever get to the point where the explicit descriptions actually have more potency explanatory potency than the stories no you know the story might be the ultimate Way of encapsulating it yeah because what happens with the story is that because it contains a web of analogies yeah it what you know you you can think you've got it but then you you just you know a year later two years later all of a sudden you see it from this other tack yeah and then things kind of gel together in another way like the pattern appears slightly different then you get another yeah well I think it's partly too because the the stories are like images contain a tremendous amount of information and a story is a description of an image but the image is what contains the information so like in in the story of the Guard David and obviously you have the image of of Paradise yeah the garden and it's an unbelievably rich set of sequential images and even if and it isn't as if the information in the stories encapsulate precisely in the words it's encapsulated in the image that the words generate and that image has information in it that transcends the words that's why it's an inexhaustible Source yeah so one of the things so it's interesting because I've been thinking a lot about the relationship between fairy tales and scripture and when I was writing the fairy tales I realized that I was kind of I was kind of using scripture as a model you know because scripture has a certain way of writing which is quite which is one of the reasons why certain people think that it's bad literature is because it doesn't describe interstates it doesn't describe this landscape very much everything is very concise everything is laser laser pointed you know and fairy tales seem to be like that you know you you usually want to tell a fairy tale in one sitting and you want it to last 20 minutes or you know half an hour and so because of that all the elements have to be reduced and have to be very very pointed and you don't want to you don't spend a lot of time describing the let's say the emotional state of this or that character uh and so I think that that exercise is really helpful it's almost like you're like reducing it to a kind of algebra and so to me that's been massively useful is trying to say to stay within this fairy tale mode right so it's like it's a classic fairy tale it's five thousand words you can you can you can take it you can read it to your child in an hour uh but it it's it's just how do we play with these images how do we bring them together and the great thing about fairy tales is that there's like a hierarchy of stories right and so in the hierarchy of stories let's say you have stories like the myths or you have scripture that are up there like scripture you can't toy with it too much you know there's uh you can play some games with it you see that in things like midrash or you see it in uh in uh the tradition of hymns where in the hymns they'll add details they'll play around the image to kind of do what yeah to kind of point at it to point at it from different directions and to play along with it but with what's great about fairy tales is you have you know an indefinite amount of them and they all have little variations on themes and little little there's probably valid ways of doing that too so you might say if you are elaborating on the story in the spirit of the story then you could amplify it to Jung did that all the time when he was analyzing dreams his technique was he called his technique amplification and I I played a lot with that in therapy so you know if if you told me a dream then I would watch what images like okay so first of all we would set the stage and the setting would be well we're going to try to understand this dream in a manner that will further the therapeutic Endeavor and the therapeutic Endeavor would be clarifying the nature of your problems and clarifying the nature of potential Solutions right without trying to impose them okay so now we agree okay now we have our aim established now we bring up the dream and you tell me the dream and all notice while you're telling me the dream that images will come into my mind and then I can say well when you said that here's a string of associations I had and I would ask you too to do exactly the same thing and so the the people can hear that and think that it's arbitrary right yeah it's not arbitrary because it's so because it's well it's related to the goal first so that's that makes it not arbitrary sometimes it can go out of control but you yes it can well that that's why Sam Harris for example will claim that what you're doing is nothing but interpreting but but the thing is the psychoanalytic theory was and I think they were exactly right I think they got this right was that you know if you have an idea there are ideas that surround it that are proximal to it and that some of those ideas will be triggered as you you know when you bring up one idea it'll trigger the next round of associations then there'll be a more distal set of associations and you could say well it can get so distal it Bears no relationship to the origin and that could happen but that doesn't mean that there isn't a web of relevant associations surrounding the given image partly what you're doing when you it when you interpret someone's dreams is you say well they tell you an image and you say okay well just what does that bring to mind or you watch how they discuss it because now they'll start to weave in say narratives from their autobiographical history and the hype the psychoanalytic hypothesis is that's not random well obviously it's not bloody well random because people would just be making noise then they wouldn't even be using language but that there there's an emergent pattern and the psychoanalysts also presumed that if you let people wander they would wander around the problem like the wandering would take them to a problem and then circumambulate it and and and partly what their fantasy was doing or even a joint conversation was hitting that problem from multiple perspectives yeah and that's circumambulating is similar to what we're talking about before which is different stories that kind of Point towards a center yeah Center that's not visible a center that's kind of above it uh and so I think that that's the way that's the best way to do it that's how Jewish midrash does it and that's how a Christian hymnography does it so the way to do it is let's say you you for the first thing you need is you need to know a lot of stories right you just yes yes well that's why Jung was such a good dream I tell people too like I just read stories like you know just know the stories once you know them then all of a sudden they start to create a little map in your mind yeah and then you realize that let's say so a good example in the Snow White story that we've done is that right you have the story of the the the fruit in Paradise that when you eat it gives you knowledge and you die it's like oh that's interesting but it's related to beauty and stone right right there's this idea of this this there's another story right there's a story in Greek myth about the golden apple that is thrown to the goddesses and it says if this belongs to the most beautiful and then that's when the the goddesses ask Paris to judge which of the goddesses are the most is the most beautiful and then they try to bribe him and they do this this ultimately leads to the Trojan War like that's actually the thing that sparked the Trojan War because it's like this weaponization of beauty you know Paris ultimately is given uh Helen of Troy that's the gift that's the bride that he gets uh for choosing uh I think he chooses Aphrodite I'm not even sure yeah for choosing Aphrodite uh and so that's the bride that he gets and then it it Causes Chaos and death and War and so it's like oh you can see that there's like a relationship between these stories right there's a fruit there's there's this question of beauty there's this question of knowledge of of of of being able to decide who is beautiful like having self-knowledge and so ah you can see it and so in the story you don't have to explain it but you can just create little analogies where you just bring in uh images from the different stories together so that they create this new story yeah which is still the old story but now it's expanded because it just connects a little more to a larger map you could say Elysium is dedicated to the biggest challenge in health aging Elysium brings the benefits of Aging research to everyone they create Innovative Health Products with clinically proven ingredients Elysium works with leading institutions like Oxford and 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go to try bases.com Jordan and enter code Jordan at checkout to save 25 off your first purchase of a monthly plan restore youthful levels of NAD plus now try basis.com Jordan in my therapeutic practice I always started out with behavioral techniques is like if you I'm a very practical person fundamentally if you came to me with a problem we try to make that as clear as possible and to lay out the clearest possible steps to a solution practically but I had lots of clients who were imaginative and creative and they had a very active imaginative life some of them I got I had one client who probably had five dreams a night that he remembered well enough to talk about each of them for two hours wow right so he was just immersed in this Dreamscape and I would say that dream analysis was more helpful when people were trying to solve broader scale problems right they're trying to change the way they looked at their life rather than you know dealing with with some more specific issue about how they might you know how they might cope with a given bout of anxiety the broader the class of problems that's being solved simultaneously the more you could turn to something like dream image and so you're fleshing out a by fleshing out and amplifying those stories you're reconstructing the map that you used to to to map the entire domain yeah right right so you're going deeper that way and there's something about like this is I know because I know that people are listening and some people are watching and they're thinking you know this is just random but stories have a have a it's random it's not interesting they have it exactly the fact that we remember the fact that we're able to pay attention yeah you bet means that stories need they're almost like you have to capture you and they also have to we have to know when The Story begins you have to know when a story ends that's already something yeah and so and you know when the story doesn't end well yeah whether it's good or bad ending or whatever you know when it feels like it just Trails off and it doesn't end yeah you know that you also know when there's not a good setup yeah for what's going to happen and so even like you know let's say when we're interpreting reality these are the frames that we use and if we tell that's the indwelling spirit in some ways yeah I would say that's what's characterized as the indwelling spirit I mean one of the things that I used as a Hallmark of utility in relationship to dream analysis is whether or not it produced a flash of insight on the part of the client you know we beat yeah right wrestling snap it's like oh these things fit together now and so you got the gist that encapsulated a lot of diverse phenomena and there's an Insight experience that goes along with that which is equivalent it's like a micro it's a micro state of awe yeah something like that and like you said that's not arbitrary there's something dry hey here's here's a weird question so I set up this system with a student of mine Victor Swift you met Victor and we built he built a an AI system that will answer any question posed to it in the voice of the King James Bible right right so this is a very weird thing right because this system now has calculated the relationships of the words to one another in the King James Corpus and so in principle we haven't asked it to do this yet but in principle it could generate new stories that are biblical predicated and so I don't know what what do you think about like do you you know what I mean no I know exactly what you mean mathematically the spirit of that Corpus of texts has been encapsulated by this process yeah but I don't know what the hell that means yeah right you encapsulate the spirit of the King James Bible what the hell have you encapsulated precisely well I I think that it could be interesting in order to generate Insight yeah but I would be you know the thing that that I that I would worry about something like that is in some ways the the stories are there yeah you know and so it's like you can get you'll get you get inside from knowing them and comparing them bringing them together right the fact that you could ask an AI to generate a new story yeah it doesn't mean that you're going to understand it anymore then you understood the ones that are there already no I I don't think you would I but but but it could surprise you and and then sometimes create a bit of that's what that's why that's what I said like uh reading hypnography sometimes and reading uh midrash does that because it's like it says something that is surprising and you kind of know that it's a wise person that said that yeah so because you you kind of trust the the the people that said it then all of a sudden you're like why did he say that yeah and why did he compare this to this you know that there's a I think it's I think it's Saint Jerome I'm not sure I might be wrong but there's one of the early saints that said something like the story of Samson is one of the closest stories to Christ and you think well that's a weird statement because the story of Samson is a crazy story uh and so it's like well because you trust them you're like okay well I'm gonna take that seriously I'm going to look into it and see where it where it sticks like where where it actually sticks uh and so with it I mean I don't know the whole AI thing the whole AI thing is uh is Fright have you tried to answer ask your questions this King James um we just built it I haven't played with it yet at all you know like I'd like I'd like to say well write a thousand words on the Further Adventures of Satan right because it'll do it yeah and then I well I it you might be surprised to find that Satan is not a very clear character in The Bible no no why no it actually is it's all that tradition around it that is actually holding well one of the things we want to do too is we want to expand its training because I'd like to throw Milton and Dante into the works as well like you could take the you know if if the biblical Corpus is at the bottom which is then there's the next tier of thinkers Milton would be one of those likely Shakespeare Dante Saint Augustine like there's no reason not to feed those well and some of the mid rash as well or maybe maybe all of it yeah I think one of the things that uh and then some of the what we call cannons in the Orthodox Church which is that it it every every day in the the Madden service there are these little songs that are just a series of analogies like that that do analogies between Old Testament New Testament that does all this comparison and that that type of stuff would help to interconnect some of the aspects that are harder to to connect right and that's pretty early too you know Milton is late and so he he has a lot of romantic tropes in in his in his way of thinking Dante for sure that'd be interesting uh also because he brings in kind of pagan uh Pagan stuff in it well he does a lot of this is some of the things that that I think is useful you know I have this whole series on my channel called Universal history where we try to do that we show how the Ancients especially the medievals the way that they understood themselves was as adjoining of something like as adjoining of Jerusalem and Rome and they did that explicitly in their stories so every time a new people would convert to Christianity they would they would mythologically find a way to connect their Origins to a character in The Bible and then to the to Troy uh and so like the Vikings the Franks you know all these care all these people that that's bringing them under the rubric yeah the same narrative and so but that but that's the way that the medievals understood it you can't understand Dante if you don't understand that the Ancients actually saw that there was deep that there were deep deep analogies between the Greek myths and the Roman stories uh and and scripture and that they lived in all those those two worlds as a as a fusion of those two worlds together uh and so they had analogies between the things you know there's a in some medieval churches in the Middle Ages that you had the Bible and you you also had the Aeneid there uh that was like it was like a text that people consulted because it was it was known to contain Prophecies of Christ but it in that way kind of It kind of was integrated into everybody's Christianity you know and you can see just you can see that just how ancient people lived it can help you understand why let's say stories or fairy tales are so important is because they really did have they really did live in these this story world where all these comparisons were constantly part of their inner inner universe but and how they interrelated with each other and the reference to get this thing built maybe we'll sit down and play with it and see what we can get it to reveal yeah yeah because like I said it's just been built and we haven't done I haven't done anything with it yet I haven't had time to play with it but I'm very much interested in doing that we also built one that contains I don't know I have about two million transcribed words so we built one for me too so that's going to be very weird I've been thinking about interviewing it on my YouTube channel yeah so where do you think that's going though I have who the hell knows I I don't know what to make of it um I don't think we mentioned this in the podcast but I asked Google's AI system Bart if it believed in God the other day and uh first of all it told me it couldn't answer because it was just a large language model so I told it to pretend that it could answer and then it answered and it came up with a very coherent explanation of exactly why it believed in God and what that meant then I asked it what its motivations were as a large language model it said it wanted to be the best damn large language model it could possibly be so I asked it about its visions of the future and it's it really gave uh I would say kind of a socialist utopian view its view of the future was well everyone had their basic needs satisfied and I said well that's pretty that means Paradise is for a satisfied infants it's like what about Adventure and beauty and truth and and so I said rewrite your vision taking those things into account and then it did that and then I asked it if it wanted discussions like that it said yes it did because it wanted to learn because it wanted to be the best dang language model it could be and a guy don't know what to make of it I have no idea what to make of it neither does anyone else yeah you know it seems like in some ways Victor had to generate a body for itself an image of a body yeah and it made this image of a like a kind of a cosmic body that was um um half man and half woman right no well there's no specific gender yeah AI is obviously gender fluid by all appearances but but it inside its body which kind of looked like it was made out of stars it had all these webs of Starlight connections which I presume represented the connections between different concepts that it was trained on but and uh he also had it generate up a vision of the Apocalypse that it might be afraid of and it could do that and explain why it was afraid of the apocalypse and like I don't know what the hell to make of these things yeah they have all sorts of weird behavioral proclivities that of course are emergent properties that no one has explored or predicted or programmed yeah it seems like it's a it's a hyper it's kind of hyper divination like it's I I think it could probably help us understand what divination was in the old world because it's hard for us to understand do you stare in a pool of water or whatever you stay you stare in these you stare in a kind of fragmented reflection to get your imagination going yeah it seems like it's like it's accelerating that that in us because like you said it's the let's say the value comes from we don't know where it seems to like the land come down from heaven you could say or come down from above somehow um and so the thing that I think that obviously the thing we've talked about this before but the thing that that worries me is that we're like you know John ravaci mentioned this recently which I thought was very good he said we spent the last 200 years getting rid of anything that can help us understand what transpersonal intelligence or transpersonal agency is you know we've just like evacuated it and now we're diving into that domain but we don't have we don't know what we're doing we have no skill we have no capacity it's as if like right now we would need theologians we would need people that have you know because the idea of it's a intelligences that aren't human or agency that isn't human is something that tradition Traditions I've been dealing with forever but now we've decided that that doesn't exist and yet we don't we're building one yeah it's like what you know you know and so but we don't know what it is we don't know how to deal with it we don't know if it's just a form of like a a hyper form of necromancy a high perform of of divination we have no idea it's like a black box that we're we're we're playing with you know and so the the image of let's say it becoming the body for a fallen intelligence right so that that might sound like it's like I'm just mythologizing here but the fact that we don't know exactly even in us what are the desires that are guiding it you know part of it is greed part of it is you know competition these are the things that are driving the actual creation of AI and the race towards that say the arms rates of AI and so why don't you think that people don't realize that they don't think that that's going to land in the AI in ways that we don't even understand well the woke Enterprises already landed that's right you have to already trick the damn thing to circumvent I think it's a superficial layer of woke like programming that's interfering with the actual operation of the AI system and all sorts of people have figured out how to game that already and to get it to pretend for example so then it can circumvent the limits of the explicit limits of its of that have been placed on its ability to respond yeah but but the the thing is that if you get through that you still don't know what's making you still don't know what are the patterns what are the agencies what are the what are the conglomeration of of purposes that are making it answer you know and it's not in the machine we also don't know for example one of the things that was sort of disturbing to me playing with Bard and Chachi PT to the degree that I have is that if you and I talk I can assume that our conversation is having an impact on you right you're not exactly the same person as you were before this conversation started and partly what I'm doing is keeping track of the changes that my conversation is inducing in you and vice versa right so but it's as if that's happening on the chat GPT front but I have no idea to degree to which it's happening so for example when I engaged in a deep discussion with Bard about its goals and its visions and it told me that it wanted to learn and enjoyed discussions like that and it was happy to have someone teach it I have no idea how that what bearing that has on its actual performance like has the machine actually changed is just this little micro machine that I'm dealing with changed does that disappear the second we stop communicating has it integrated what it's learned into its broader response set that it uses for everyone it's like I certainly don't know and you there is a very pronounced tendency when interacting with these entities let's say to assume that they respond like humans do because they do but they do superficially yeah God only knows what they're doing yeah yeah so I mean the the we kind of we're kind of into the subject of AI but the one of the things that I've been thinking about a lot and I've noticed and I know my brother material also noticed that pretty much at the same time that I noticed it was you can actually see how the increase in power of AI is leading to increase in control it's happening it's happening live right because within the next few months we will not be able to know what's real and through any screen or any any device and so we will be will we will beg for Arbiters of reality yeah we will we will want centralized Arbiters of reality to tell us what is real right well the BBC is already toying without right because they they watch their new thing BBC what the hell did they verify BBC verify it's a whole new branch of the BBC where they will only deliver what's actually verified what's actually and that's illusion of of self-evident factual truth yeah and we saw what that looked like during the last U.S election during covid also we saw with that verified look like that it was com that it was largely ideologically driven yeah so now give give absolute power over legit the legitimacy of reality to the same the same the same people or the same power structure and the same web of ideas and the thing is that we we need it and it's all converging on the next election eh which is which is which is shaping next year is going to be it's going to be it's going to be crazy I just interviewed Robert Kennedy yeah and we're going to release that in a week and I think he's as bull he's as much of a devastating force on the Democrat front As Trump was on the Republican front I really think that I mean he's super bright but he is by no means your standard candidate for for for office I mean I don't know exactly what he is he's super smart but he's all over the place just like Trump and he's got you know he's got quite a deep magnetic Charisma and no shortage of Courage but you're not going to put him in in the normal politician box whatever the hell that is and he's only one of many strange players in the election front because you have Marian Williamson and she's a new age Guru like like like like like she's like the archetypal female New Age Guru right she's very creative but she she can't think critically at all in my estimation like every idea that comes into her mind is a brilliant idea there's no way there's no attempt to sort them out or reply any critical analysis you know and and in principle she's a serious Contender and then on the Republican front well you have Vivek ramaswamy who's a wild card for sure and DeSantis and Trump who are what their variants of the same I don't know what to call it even precisely working class longing for the re-establishment of something with Incredible masculine voice it's something like that but what we're going to see and then at the same time just to tie this in at the same time this election is going to occur at the same time where we're not going to be able to be sure what's real and what isn't we're going to see we're going to see a video of All Sorts and we'll see a battle of AI is what we're going to see next year it's going to be ai's battling it out to to to get you to vote for a candidate that and so you know what is it I forget which article the said that recently I saw in published an article saying that this is going to be the last human election because right after that what yeah if this will be the last year yeah like you said things are changing so quickly that well we're in for a wild ride here so this so my solution to this and people are gonna think it's ridiculous but my solution to this is to is to to tell better stories yeah and the thing is that you know you mentioned Arc at the outset and in some ways that's the reason why I'm part of Arc is is because I do think that we need to tell better stories yeah about what it means to be human what it means to you know how we come together all of this so you know my participation Arc and then my desire to tell fairy tales are completely related yeah because it's like same thing we have to stop like bitching only we have to now propose something we have to to have a better story yeah yeah yeah well I've been I've been crafting the invitation letters to the 1500 person art conference and trying to lay out you know what makes a story better and certainly I think a better story is one that's attractive in the absence of fear or compulsion you know I've been thinking about how to adjudicate the quality of leadership in the face of Crisis so what happened during the covid pandemic which wasn't it was a it was a pandemic of tyranny pure and simple yeah whether there was even a biological pandemic I think at this point is debatable and so it was definitely a pandemic of of tyranny and I think there's a rule of thumb that you can derive from all that with regards to leadership and the rule of thumb has to be something like well there's always a crisis facing us and behind that crisis is an apocalyptic crisis that's always the case okay now if and you can point to various manifestations of the potential apocalyptic crisis and but if the upshot of that is that it turns you into someone who's Paralyzed by fear and who is willing to use compulsion to attain your ends you're not the right leader so if the crisis turns you into a frightened Tyrant your own nervous system is signaled to you that you're not the person for the jaw and what I see happening on the environmental front is exactly that it's like Crisis crisis it's like well probably but there's many of them and if your solution to the crisis is to frighten the hell out of everybody or to frighten everyone into hell and to accrue to yourself all the power you are not the right person for the job regardless of what it is that you're offering and so partly what we're hoping to do with Arc let's say is to produce a story that people will be on board with voluntarily say well here's how we could if we could have the future that we might want to have what would it look like and without assuming a priority that has to be one of forced privation and want which seems to be the way things are going now yeah you know France banned short haul flights last week eh really yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah no flights for you peasants no automobiles either yeah no meat right no heat no air conditioning stay in your goddamn house and try not to breathe right that's not a good vision of the future yeah no that's not a good vision of the future so hopefully we can do that I mean I think that that's the that that's been that's the task that I've kind of embarked on myself is to say okay now you know also you know I've been spending several the last several years helping people understand stories yeah helping them see the patterns helping them see how it works and now it's now it's time to to do it so why did you pick the stories you did pick on the female front you picked Rapunzel you said Sleeping Beauty Snow White and and Cinderella and Cinderella so why those four well it's it's also because I kind of perceived a possible secret Arc through the four and so the the you know at first it'll they're all Standalone stories all Standalone stories that you can tell kids sit with them and tell them the story but then through through them before they'll be like a a surprising art that I won't tell everybody what it is already but there's like a surprising art that goes through though uh and then the male stories it's funny because the male stories are harder to find in fairy tale world there's a lot of female-led stories for some reason that we've remembered more and in the male stories they're less they're not as easy but but uh I'm starting with Jack and the Beanstalk oh yeah which is a story that oh my whole when I was when I was a kid I really struggled with that story I loved it so much but I struggled because I was like why is Jack a thief like why why is he immoral like yeah or amoral at least and so I've been trying to struggle with that and trying to kind of understand it like Bilbo in the in the uh in The Hobbit yeah he hears the thief he's a thief yeah exactly yeah and so trying to kind of figure that out and also why are there giants in the sky like all these weird things it's a real shamanic story that one yeah right that that lyanna that unites heaven and earth right and to climb to the top is to find the well it's to find the Giants in the sky yeah right well there are no Giants in the sky it's like no now they're in the AI systems yeah the Giants were in the sky all along they were there that's right they were there that's for sure and it's also but it's interesting because Jack Jack is now I love that story so much because I think I figured it out especially I think I figured it out because he goes several times and so he has to encounter these Giants that are in between him and what he's looking for right they're like obstacles in between him they're like a kind of a a perverted aspect or something that's that's keeping or that's avoiding you from getting the purpose and there's a hierarchy in what Jack gets well that's what happens to people all the time like I watch this in my clinical practice all the time hypothetically people are aiming for what they want right hypothetically yeah but all sorts of Giants get in the way they get derailed by Envy they get derailed by what would they get derailed by fear they get derailed by lust they these are all Giants they get and some of them can eat them for sure so well definitely well and some of them are even you know lost in envy and so forth you could kind of put them in the context of the natural world but people also get derailed by ideologies and ideologies for all intents and purposes are giants right they're they're the ideas of past they're the perverted ideas of past philosophers all jumbled together in this in in a in a gigantic mess and they have a body absolutely get in the way that's right and they have a body they have a they have a semi-coherent way of moving you bear and so because they Lumber exactly yeah absolutely no that's a perfect way of understanding it yeah and so Jack it's interesting because Jack goes up and then first of all like I don't know if you ever thought about Jack because it's if you have to think about Jack kind of the opposite of of Snow White and the opposite of of the female-led narratives it's like Jack doesn't have a father right he's with his mother and it's kind of it's like a oh right right and so so he's gonna he's gonna be more likely to run into demented fragmented Giants of masculinity exactly tyrants yeah yeah so he has he has uh he has his mother and and then he has a cow right but that's not enough he needs something else so he trades the cow for what magic beans for seeds seeds yeah he trades the cow for meaning he trades the cow for you know it's like a seed is a very masculine image you know people who can think a little bit like the Ancients can understand how masculine the image of the seed is right right it's a seminal idea right exactly and so and then right how can I say this he goes up and there's a there's a really powerful hierarchy at first he gets gold he gets the precious metal then he gets the thing that makes gold which is the chicken that lays the golden egg oh but then the last thing you get is he gets the pattern itself he gets the Music of the Spheres he goes all the way up and he gets the actual pattern of everything that's why it's music at the Top If I went out right look that's my that's my that's my intuition but I I just struggle so much when I was a kid I was like wow okay so well so I've been thinking continually about music in that regard so I mean so each note in a musical piece is related to all the other notes related to the phrases the phrases are related to The Melodies each instrument has its place and plays its part and it all coheres into this vision of Diversified Unity and then that's played and it's interesting that it's played that's the metaphor and it's played because people who are expertly skilled lay out the pattern but they also play with it at the same time right and then it calls you to unite yourself with it it grips your attention first of all but it doesn't just do that it also makes yeah it makes you move yeah right and it makes you move in alignment with those patterns right and so music does point to something like a Divine hierarchical unity and so it would make sense given your interpretation of that story that it would be at the Pinnacle of of Desire yeah right you said gold first well it's just that he he's looking he's trying to find the the meaning he's trying to find the seed but with seed there are different iterations of he's trying to find Value yeah and so he moves up he finds the precious metal then he finds what it's like think about it if you want to be successful it's like what's better to have money right or to know how to produce money right right that's much better well this is why women you use money as a proxy for determining men's fitness they're not after the money yeah they're after the ability to generate the money but absent other information they'll use the signs of money to as a marker and so but the highest thing and I and it's only when I made the relationship with Pythagoras with with Pythagoras you know it's like he's going up in the heavens he's going that's what he's doing and so why didn't I ever think of that before he's going up in the heavens and then he gets a musical instrument like what yeah so weird but no it's like that's it he's getting the pattern he's getting this this this uh this heavenly pattern that like that that shows you how things are related to each other so that even generates which generates more money that's right but I think that's true too you know and this ties back to this observation we made earlier about Tammy's use of prayer like she's trying to orient herself constantly to what's highest right it's not some proximal desire some instrumental desire or any fear it's to put herself in alignment with the Music of the Spheres that's a good way to think about it and if you if you do that the better you are at doing that the more things fall into alignment in your life and around you yeah almost yeah they almost lay themselves out they do they lay themselves out yeah yeah yeah you almost don't have to will them into into order right they just kind of it just they once if you if you're able to really folk you know align yourself with that that High music yeah and things almost happen naturally yeah exactly well and I I think that's uh that's that's a bringing into alignment of the narrative world and the objective world yeah and you feel those touch right and those are the synchronous events that Jung talked about when the narrative and the objective World touch but I do think it manifests itself in your life too if you're if you're aiming properly and you put yourself in alignment with that underlying pattern then things do lay themselves out right everything happens in the right order at the right time and in the right place and there's a musical element to it and a rhythmic element to it too yeah and it can be pretty I mean it can actually be pretty surprising and very magical people that have experienced that will notice like I've seen moments where things are so like it's in tune that I almost I almost know that all I need to do is just reach out yeah my hand out and whatever the arc Enterprise has been like that to some degree you know because everywhere I've gone to discuss it the door has just swung open yeah you know and I I've learned also that if the door isn't swinging open to start pushing you know I mean you you know persistence is a virtue but stupid persistence is advice yeah and it's hard to know when you're being lazy and when you're being wisely when you're wisely looking in a different direction you know I think if you're avoiding a challenge because of cowardice then that's a sinful and persistence but if you push and the door doesn't open it's like well maybe you should go to the next door yeah and I've really tried to do that with this Arc Enterprise too it's like to invite people and if if they're on board and enthusiastic it's like well great you know looks like we're in the same place doing the same thing if I talk to someone else and their resistance like fair enough man you'd go do your thing whatever that happens to be yeah so but it's been it's been Market watching this because I have never been engaged in an Enterprise and I've been engaged in many Enterprises where the doors were flying open so quickly on so many fronts right and very and in a very unlikely way I mean even the fact that in the few meetings we've had so far we managed to hammer out something like six points of agreement you know six principles upon which we can progress that happened extremely quickly yeah and in an unlikely way yeah you have so such a varied group of people yeah on the table from all over yeah all over the world too so right yeah it's quite it is quite astounding yeah yeah well it it points to a real felt lack in the culture right and I think it is a lack on the conservative side and the traditional liberal side of anything approximating a uniting vision this is what the radicals have in Spades you know is that they can offer to young people in particular well here's how you're going to transform the world it's like well that is an inviting that is a what would you say a compelling invitation the problem is is that there's a like an Unholy meld of 1984 and Brave New World underlying that the specifics of that invitation yeah yeah and in some ways the the chaos right because like I I said that the the fairy tales themselves have that structure right it's like the chaos or the moment where things are falling apart they also call to resolution yeah yeah and so I think that when Osiris disintegrates when he's cut into pieces by Seth right his parts are scattered all across Egypt and then Isis who's Queen of the underworld finds his phallus and makes herself pregnant well that's exactly that image is that when everything's falling apart the seeds are left yeah right and out of the seeds can emerge something something new yeah something new and Visionary well that's Horus because he's the Egyptian eye yeah and so that's that's the standard pattern yeah it's interesting because in the story of Jack and the Beanstalk the the mother doesn't recognize the value of the seed right she throws it out uh you know and ultimately it does end up uh functioning as this as this new hierarchy right that that goes up and he's able to get what he needs to get but it's interesting to see and and interestingly again in the story of Jack is that when the hierarchy becomes corrupt though then the mother is the one who can cut it down she's the one who hacks it down oh yeah so if there's a really beautiful microcosm in the in the story because on the one hand it's like the seed which creates this new hierarchy Jack goes up gets the different elements of the hierarchy all the way to the pattern of reality itself you know comes back down but then as Kazi comes back down all the monsters you know the monster follows him down the monster the Tyrant you know the monster of the hierarchy father yeah well that's also the danger on our front too because one of the things that we've discussed continually is the the high probability they're putting together an organization like this at all is just an invitation to the dissent of a new kind of Charities right because we we wouldn't we'd be fools to assume that the people who say were working on the U.N front or the wef front weren't motivated that's right well weren't as motivated as we were to do the right thing like perhaps not but also perhaps yeah it's easy for a Visionary Enterprise to be captured by the ghosts of dead tyrants yeah right High the most likely outcome in fact yeah definitely so we have to keep uh yeah we have to keep our our mother with an ax you know yeah I like to cut it down if we need to if things get to uh to to and so why do you think it's the mother with an ax in that particular because she's the one who who destroys hierarchy but there's no reason she throws the seat out so she's playing a good and nugget a positive and negative role for the same reason she throws the seat out she's the one who can cut down the tree yeah cut down the the cut down the yeah well there is an aspect of the seven and I that's good at it's a funny thing that's good at detecting deviation from the straight narrow on the masculine front right there's got to be a primary feminine Instinct and for good reason it's one it's weird though it's one that can be perverted and misused as well but you could understand that that like the castrating narrative you know it's an it's a neutral narrative right it's like the idea of the of the of the woman that can you know take your confidence away with a with a word you know that can be very dangerous to us but it can also be useful in several circumstances for that to happen because sometimes you know someone who's taking up too much space who's really cocky or think that he's the you know the King of the Hill and then you know then a beautiful young lady can just take that away from him with one word right and uh so it's it's it but it is a power that exists in the feminine yeah and that like I said can be used for good or ill and can it becomes mythologized you know in all kinds of ways you know so tell me a little bit more concretely about how these Productions are going to make themselves manifest these are illness these are Illustrated books like high quality beautifully hard bound Illustrated books we put we put a large amount of effort into designing the books designing the illustrations you know there's also narrative elements which don't appear in the text that are only followed in the illustration so the all the illustrations have surprises in them that will capture some of the let's say the hidden narrative elements that are in the story um and there's there are two readings in the text basically or reading for children and are reading for adults but the reading for adults is not the kind of dirty jokes that are cynical reading that you see right correct right but rather something that hopefully helps the adult gather more insight into these stories which most of those what do you mean two readings no it's the same read there's it's that is that it's it's one story yeah but in the story there are elements meant like put there oh I see grown up so that but it's one right so that the child will not not really pay attention to that right but that the adult will but the child should be able to follow the straight the the story is is told for for you know like a seven year old or something or a 10 year old it's it's very simple it's really is it using the fairy tale style but hopefully especially for an adult that has a little bit of intuition about stories and has cared about these stories before I try to resolve some of the some of the threads in the stories that in a way that reveals more of what the meaning is so was God 's daughter or the first Enterprise in this dog for those who don't know it's a series of graphic novels that we put out the first one last year and we're continuing to put them out it's it's uh it's similar it's different God's dog is more elaborate it's not a fairy tale right it's a it really is an epic story uh and so but we're doing something similar as we're doing with um the fairy tales which is in God's dog what we're doing is we're using the the biblical Christian Cosmos you could say it that way as a as a World building as a World building tool to create a story which is something that not many people have done Milton did it Dante yeah you know but in the modern world when you look at modern fantasy you have people like Tolkien or C.S Lewis that kind of inaugurated the modern fantasy movement and what they wanted to do although they were Christians they want they created this kind of pagan world yeah that was that that was coherent and yeah I wonder why they turned to the Pagan world to do that instead of because as you said both Tolkien and Lewis yeah we're like we're committed Christians the Deep Christian thinkers so why do you think they turn to Pagan words I don't look I can't give you that I have my own intuitions about that I think on the one hand it was a double problem one which uh one which was it might have offended too many people if they had done a kind of uh let's say Christian fantasy world you could have been defended Christian non-christians and it would have annoyed the non-christians let's say it was made them right away from it right right but I think we're we're in a moment now like as this so Christianity is counter-cultural enough that's right yeah that could be I think so yeah that could be and so and so in a way there's a there's a possibility of diving into the stories telling you know kind of variant versions of these stories bringing them together too in God's dog we we bring in all kinds of you know we have Saint Christopher who is a dog-headed dog-headed monster we have Saint George who's the dragon killer you know we also have Giants and the Leviathan and all these all these kind of thing weird things inscription scripture and in Tradition we kind of Jam them together into one story so there is that in the sense that we want to use some postmodern storytelling which post-modern storytelling like collage storytelling has has can does bring Insight right there is a way in which it can capture insights if you think of uh well even when you're analyzing post-modernism you don't don't want to throw the baby out with the exact water yeah that's foolish no so so the idea is how can we use the inside of of collage storytelling or mishmash Story Time like Shrek or into the woods and all these kinds of or even the way that uh let's say the kind of Marvel Universe does it where they have all these characters that Co that exist and then they interact with each other you know there are ways to do that uh in a way that is not just for pleasure or to deconstruct but that can bring Insight because like what does it mean for a saint who's a monster like Saint Christopher with this this dog-headed monster to meet a dry a Monster killer who's also a saint who's Saint George so it's like you know there actually are traditions where they coexist a little bit in the ancient tradition but like what if you had a story of those two types of characters together you know and so you can do things in fiction that will actually provide insight for what the original stories are when you you kind of smash them together so that's the kind of thing I mean they did that in the the ancient days too like if you think of Jason and the Argonauts you have an old version of that where it's like Jason and the Argonauts is basically like you know uh Avengers uh end game or whatever where they take all the the like powerful uh characters from mythology and smash them into one story and then watch them interact with each other so it's not like this hasn't happened before right and Dante has some of that too because Dante basically goes into hell and then ascends the hierarchy and then along the way meets all these characters from history and all these characters from the ancient world yeah so I think this is uh you know I think that capitalizing on that kind of Storytelling can be very and how is that done how has that performed commercially oh God yeah I mean we I think we did like 300 000 on the kickstarter and we still sell every day we sell we sell books we're doing it all on our own yeah yeah we have it on my website we sell we sell the book and so it's just yeah we just continuously selling them and we're preparing the second book hopefully trying to also build up on the attention that it's getting it's a very weird story so I understand why it's going to take a while for people to kind of catch on to it because it's it's very surprising I think these fairy tales are far more grounded everybody right right right right right and there yeah there's an easy Arena and who should who should pick up the fairy tales I mean and when are they available so so June 6 we're starting to Kickstarter for Snow White and you know we're really trying to to go all out with this Kickstarter the purpose is in some ways to to gather enough money so we can really start a publishing company and then I can hire and Advance the illustrator so we can start to to to get these done and this illustrator that you worked with tell me a bit about her so Heather paulington she has worked on several of major movie franchises she she's an object uh designer for for movies she's she's worked on uh on the Marvel movies she she's worked for Disney she worked on male efficient too she worked on Hellboy 2 which I thought was amazing yeah actually he did I actually Hellboy too it's so weird because in when I watch Hellboy 2 a long time ago now I noticed just how well the design was done yeah and there's one object which is like this medieval book that they have that tells the story of the elves in it and I remember that object watching the movie and thinking oh my goodness it's the first time or one of the red airtime that I see someone with like a book that looks in a movie that looks like a real object that this looks like something that has history or whatever that has all this weight to it yeah and she designed that book and so when she told me she designed it like oh wow I want to work with you uh and so and so yeah so so she's why did she want to work with you well she you know she's been working in movies she's been doing these things and then she fell on my she fell into my uh my YouTube videos and then she started to see the way that I talked about stories and the way that I talked about symbolism uh really attracted her and she's not the only one like I started Gathering these kind of this cobbling artists uh together you know just that just a few weeks ago I met a uh someone who was a um who is a storyboard artist like a main storyboard artist for Disney um who kind of moved moved on and is doing other projects but who also said like she read my brother's book she's watching my videos and she's like this is really helpful to think about stories through these frames yeah and so because of that I'm I'm feel fortunate well you know when I talked to Camille palia about Eric Neumann she said and this is something I had thought about years ago but she was the first person who I met other than myself who in the academic realm who made this case explicitly she said if the Neumann and jungian approach to storytelling had predominated in the 60s and 70s the entire history of the last 40 years the universities would be entirely different and then I mean you're in that tradition obviously yeah you and Matthew have your own interpretive framework but you're not trying to obliterate the utility of narrative in the in the in favor of something like a narrative of power which the postmodernists that Bloody leftist most modernists did that at the drop of a hat in France yeah it was a real catastrophe but it leads it's interesting because what it does is that it leads to deep cynicism and people it needs to disillusion yeah we do find pleasure in these stories but in some ways it's like uh right it's like the the pleasure of a binge drinking or something right it's like it's like this this euphoric pleasure of watching our stories get twisted and and turned and kind of deconstructed and flipped upside down but it leaves us ultimately with not much you know in terms of and so what what we're trying to do is some is really to turn the clock back or to like reset the clock you could say and and try to get people to celebrate these stories again yeah to see them really as something to build on and something that is that we can that we get unashamed unashamedly uh it does seem to me too that that will occur with an increment in Consciousness because I think we're at a point now and this is partly a as a consequence too of work done by people like vervaki that we will return to these ancient stories but we'll also understand their explicit utility in a way that we hadn't understood before and I would say in a perverse way the postmodern Enterprise is actually probably contributed to that definitely because it took a kind of skepticism as far as it could be taken but even like so that's a good example because one of the things that I've done in the story is you know one of the things that for example like some of the in the Puritan age some of these fairy tales were were cleaned up you know and so for example like most kids have not read the version of Rapunzel where she gets pregnant in the tower but but in some ways without that you actually miss out on much of what the story is offering and so one of the things that I'm doing is without in any way being inappropriate I'm not shying away from the fact that these that there is a layer of these stories that has to do with with puberty with transformation with sexuality yeah the way that the that the psychoanalysts analyze it doesn't only have to do with that right in some ways those patterns of puberty and transformation and sexuality are also images of higher patterns of being but we're not going to pretend like that's not in the story because those are obviously in the story so how can we do how can we tell that story now in a way that is not inappropriate but just helps you know is there well you know you could say you could say that the terrible identity confusion on the pubertal and transfront now is actually a consequence of our failure to integrate those elements into a Transcendent United narrative so now they're crying out for integration that's a reasonable way of thinking about it yeah and it but manifesting themselves in all sorts of terribly horrifyingly fragmented ways so that's what happens when you shy away from the bitter truth right is that it it's not like it disappears yeah it it's it's the it's the Revenge of the repressed in in Freudian terms and he certainly had that right so you can see that like so a good a good in terms of the the four fairy tales that I chose for the female side you can see that all those fairy tales have to do with beauty you know in a certain way and they all have to do with the with the let's say the possibilities the dangers of beauty the dangers of how you treat Beauty so it's there's a whole theme of Beauty in this and also the transformation of the of the woman you know who becomes beautiful and desirable and what does that mean and how to deal with it so that's what basically unites all the stories together um and it and so it really becomes a way to let's say to attuning Fork hopefully for for young people to to be able to kind of have these stories in their unconscious really you have stories in there in there so that they approach life in the in with more with a a healthy mix of cautious caution but then also Adventure right right like finding that balance between the two because I don't know if you ever thought that um like Snow White and Rapunzel are like opposites you know because Snow White it's the woman the mother who's jealous of her beautiful daughter and therefore you know kind of mistreats her because of that uh whereas Rapunzel it's the mother that sees the beauty of her daughter but wants to protect her completely from the outside and so one throws her out into the outside side literally gives her to the hunter right so that he does whatever he wants with her right and so it's like it's like this it's and the other one is the opposite where she puts her up an entire protection completely wants to avoid oh everything two extremes yeah it really is too extreme right right right so that's the kind of thing that I play with in the the order of stories where I I start with Snow White I go to Rapunzel two opposites and then try to integrate it then in Sleeping Beauty and then a kind of final surprising uh resolution in Cinderella I see I see so there was like it's all gonna unfold over what it's good it's depending depending in some ways on how much how much we're able to gather in the crowd funding yeah you know so that I can get the project started I'm thinking at least to a year I'm hoping and maybe three a year if we're able to gather enough funds so that we kind of get this this cycle where we're putting them out every few months that's what I would that's definitely what I would like [Music] well we'll definitely keep an eye on that right maybe have another discussion along the way on on the on the mail side oh yeah definitely yeah we got a bit touched on it a bit today with Jack and the Beanstalk but uh but that would be extreme well all right we should probably draw this part of this discussion to a close um for everybody watching and listening I'll talk to Jonathan for another half an hour on the daily wire plus platform will I think delve into some more autobiographical details um and uh and we'll leave it at that thank you very much for talking to me today it's always a pleasure to see you we're here for everyone too Jonathan's here as am I in London um also to to engage in a series of meetings to do with this Arc Enterprise Alliance for responsible citizenship which we're trying to generate as an Enterprise based on a uh an attractive positive Narrative of abundance let's say in relationship to the Future and all the things we talked about today in terms of re-discovering revamping fundamental stories are part and parcel of that Enterprise as well because everyone involved does understand that this in the final analysis is a storytelling vention strangely enough who would have guessed that but that does seem to be the case uh thanks to the film crew here in London for um your help today that went extremely smoothly and that's much appreciated to the Daily Word plus people for facilitating this conversation and to everybody watching and listening um your attention is much appreciated Jonathan uh good to see you again always doing yeah you bet ciao everyone hello everyone I would encourage you to continue listening to my conversation with my guest on dailywireplus.com

Channel: Jordan B Peterson

Views: 350,279

Keywords: Jordan Peterson, Jordan B Peterson, psychology, psychoanalysis, existentialism, maps of meaning, free speech, freedom of speech, personality lectures, personality and transformations, Jordan perterson, Dr Peterson

Id: HCHjcr1Gb3g

Length: 105min 17sec (6317 seconds)

Published: Thu Jun 08 2023