Listen and Weep | Eric Metaxas | EP 371

and that thin theological view that some  Christians have of what it is to have faith   is profoundly wrong it is unbiblical and and  that's where we have drifted to this idea that   people say I can be against something in my mind  but I don't have to do anything about it [Music]   hello everyone watching and listening today  I'm speaking with author speaker radio host an   incorrigible Eric mataxis we discuss his most  recent book a letter to the American Church   which argues that it's a betrayal of Faith to stay  silent in the face of tyranny we parallel the rise   of the wannabe Arbiters of speech across history  against those making themselves manifest today   and detail the responsibility to act against  falsehood that's an intrinsic part of the   abrahamic tradition although increasingly  non-existent in the American church today   so you recently wrote letter to the American  church I released a podcast a while back or   I guess it was just a monologue which was  message to Christians and uh so obviously   to some degree we're thinking along parallel  lines Why did you think it was necessary to write   a letter to the American Church what did you  mean by the American church and uh tell us about   the letter and what the consequences of writing  that was that was 2022 that was released right   yes um I uh I'm I'm large uh I contain multitudes  you know who said that I believe it was Chris   Christie just kidding uh I I'm very eclectic  I'm very eclectic and I have to tell you that   um some people know me principally as a writer  because I've written whatever 14 plus books   many children's books uh I do of course um radio  show TV show and so on and so forth but almost   everything that I do I do for everyone in other  words I'm trying to reach uh a broad audience   not just I want to sell more books but because I I  feel God created me to speak to a popular audience   to to a wide audience this most recent book which  is my shortest book letter to the American Church   um is the first time I have ever written  something specifically only for those who claim   to be Christians I thought to myself well I  shouldn't say I thought to myself I've I had a   I had a number of thoughts rambling around in my  head that became increasingly highlighted uh in   a way that I couldn't uh I don't know how some  people will take this but but I've never felt   God called me to write something the way he did  this book in retrospect all of my books Bonhoeffer   and so on and so forth it's it's it's exceedingly  clear to me that God's hand was in my writing them   but never have I felt a burning passion that I  knew was God calling me to write this specific   book so it's a strange and unique thing in my  experience there's a uh you know if you think   of of the title letter to the American Church it  would be natural to think what kind of hubris are   we talking about here that somebody would dare uh  to write letter to the American church as though   he's a modern day Paul or something like that but  on the contrary because I felt it was God wanting   to say this uh I had more humility than ever  in writing it thinking that I cannot get this   wrong I have to really be sure to take myself  out of the way as much as as possible to to   let God say what he wants to to say and I don't  mean this in any mystical sense but I was very   um soberminded to write something with a title  letter to the American church and the reason I   wrote it in a nutshell is that um in 2010 I  came out with my my longest book a biography   of Dietrich Bonhoeffer the German Pastor who  was involved in the plot to kill Hitler um I   knew when I was writing that book uh that it it  sort of I could I could smell what was happening   as I was writing that book I could smell that in  our future in the west not just in America but in   America specifically and in with the events of the  last few years uh let's say the last three years   um it was impossible for me to avoid the thought  that just as the Silence of the church in Germany   opened the door to Hell on Earth which we now  know because we know what happened and of course   I documented in my Bonhoeffer book and in this  new booklet to the American church but I but but   the thesis of this book letter to the American  church is that precisely as the German church   was silent and precisely as that opened the door  to hell to every kind of evil it is the silence   of the church in America now this minute that is  similarly opening the door to hellish uh things   on a number of fronts the the parallels are so  marked even the parallel of the excuses given   by uh theologians and Christians in the 30s who  said we don't want to speak out against Hitler we   don't want to these are our reasons dramatically  similar parallels among many uh evangelicals and   others in the American church today for why they  are being silent on issues that they ought to be   screaming about issues that you and others have  shouted about the evil of the transgender uh   lunacy and on and on and on and on so I I said to  myself I can't believe it but the parallels are   are so dramatic uh to The Silence of the church  in Germany that I am just burning to to speak this   hoping and praying that God in his grace would use  it to wake up those who might be awakened we know   that some people will insist on sleep walking to  the abyss that they're they they cannot be reached   but I know that in Germany in the 30s there were  many good pastors who got this wrong many good   pastors who were fooled um deceived uh who allowed  themselves to be deceived until it was too late   many of them woke up and then it was too late to  do anything so I wrote this book hoping to reach   those specifically who call themselves Christians  who dare to call themselves Christians uh with   the idea that they would say yes I have been  complicit in my silence in my inaction uh these   excuses are not biblically based I must speak  out okay so let me ask you there's a lot there so   let me go through some of the questions that  we might address I'd like to know what you mean   by God's hand say rather than your hand in your  writing and so that people can understand exactly   what you mean by that and how that appears to you  and how you distinguish your voice let's say from   from the spirit of inspiration then I'd like  to know what events of the last three years   that you you think are particularly problematic  because there's no Hitler staring Us in the face   at the moment so that's the obvious historical  parallel there's systems of Warring ideas and   and you're you're on the Christian side of  that war let's say you said dare to call   themselves Christian which is an interesting uh an  interesting phrase so let's start let's start with   your description of some of the books that you've  written is that you know they were inspired you   know and my sense is that you can separate out an  attempt to write a book for instrumental Reasons   from an attempt to write a book to put forth  what you believe to be true right now they're   mingled a little bit because you you sort  of have to select your audience although   when I wrote myself everything is by definition  mingled there's there's no yeah there's no getting   around that unless unless you know a a demon is  speaking and you're doing automatic ghost writing   or something like that in other words the we are  created in God's image and inevitably you can say   this about the New Testament itself about the  New and Old Testaments I mean they're inspired   but Paul does not erase his personality to  speak uh for God God created Paul with his   personality so that God could use the medium of  the human being that is Paul to to say what God   has to say so it's it's different from you  know there are people I know who will hear   the voice of God they will hear God speak a  sentence or speak a scripture or something   um I'm not talking about that uh that happens  but that didn't happen to me for me it was and   it's a funny thing it's like develop a muscle  where you become increasingly sensitive to uh   you're able to use it and and I think literally  over the decades I've become more sensitive   to um to um in other words in the past I  think uh you know I've since I became a   Christian uh you know rather dramatically in  1988 I have all I wanted every moment God to   use me to to use me in my gifts uh uh which are  strange and various and I and I've always uh   assumed that that he would and that he was doing  that and in the various books that I've written   and the various things that I've done even in the  jokes that I've cracked that God is with me but um over the over the years I've become a little bit  more sensitive to these moments where I feel I   would say you know God is particularly in this I  can sort of feel it it's almost like a highlighter   going over something the words are the same but  you could sort of see this highlighted the text   is highlighted or something like that I don't mean  that specifically with with my books I'm speaking   about talking about my thoughts and things that  I think that these these thoughts feel like God   is uh particularly behind them could I be vager  I'll try no no no no no no this is a hard thing   to get right so you know there's going to be  some wandering about in the darkness trying to   get it right I mean one of the things I try to do  when I'm speaking and also when I'm writing is to   feel I I would I wouldn't use a visual metaphor  for me it's more like feeling my way forward   for toe holes I the image that always comes  to mind for me is walking across a swamp   of dirty water where there's Stone  pathway underneath and then you can   feel out with my feet if the next  thing I'm standing on is well water   or or crocodile or or solid ground and I'm  always searching for that sense of solidity   but it's interesting there's a presupposition in  what you're saying that there is a path forward   there's a right way in a wrong way and that's  that's a presupposition that you've just put   out there in other words you operate with that  piece of position there's such a thing as truth   and I don't want to get it wrong and that  alone is right is a big thing to to put   that out there right well I would say that  well I agree well it's truth right well I   think that's Akin in some ways to to your claim  that you're you're attempting to be directed by   as close as you can manage to divine inspiration  when you're writing I mean it isn't it isn't a   set of axiomatic statements like I do believe but  forgive me for interrupting but it's gonna it's   gonna sound like I'm claiming that that I'm being  led by God and everything I write I don't want to   say that I'm just basically I'm I'm a writer I'm  a speaker I do my best the only time uh I felt something more palpable of of God's inspiration  was in writing a letter to the American church I   I felt like I've never written anything as  as sobering and Urgent and so I had a more   keen sense that I really need to get this right  because what I'm saying is so serious and and so   urgent uh so but I don't want to imply that there  was anything uh mystical about it or that every   word was uh you know chosen by God but I just  had I suppose a sense of humility something   there is something I suppose  mystical about that intuition that   there's a distinction between words that  are false and words that are true yeah and   it isn't easy exactly to describe how you know  the difference I mean you know the difference   the way you know the difference between truth and  falsehood if you do in fact know that difference   and haven't clouded your mind up too bad it's  no different than the instinct to know what's   it it's no different really than the instinct  to know what's funny if you're a jokester right   right I am to know the timing of why would  it be funnier if I hesitate if I if I if I   if I if I stutter the phrase uh why will it be  funnier that the timing all those things are   instincts that uh we all develop in our various  ways through life or at least ideally we that   we would so it has something to do with that it  becomes it doesn't feel conscious uh it it feels   like something that it's it's an inner knowing  a sense of of things but uh I mean I've I've had   numerous genuinely mystical experiences uh  miraculous experiences um but that's not what   I'm talking about here here I'm talking about just  what it is to be a writer uh but as I say it kind   of became pointed with letter to the American  church because of the seriousness of what I was   writing well okay so let's let's turn to that  now because of the seriousness of what you were   writing and you pointed specifically to the events  of the last three years and this is probably we'll   get this whole discussion canceled on YouTube by  the way good because that's increasingly happening   yeah well three they've taken three of my videos  down in the last month by the way um so um what   is it exactly that you think is afoot why do you  think it's akin to the source of things that were   happening while the totalitarian state was rising  in Germany and you've just you've just said it   the YouTube canceling your your conversations how  extraordinarily Preposterous and sick is that it's   mind-bending that in the west we would have some  Arbiters out there deciding what is okay and what   is not okay that's despicable as speaking as an  American it is profoundly anti-American I think   of the blood of patriots who died for freedom for  freedom of speech so it is on the one hand deeply   offensive to me in that way but as a human being  it's deeply offensive to me uh as a Christian   it's offensive to me because I believe that we  are all free to speak truth so the idea that   we would be alive at a Time in the West where  in places like Canada and America and the West   somebody would dare would dare to be shutting  down what you and I and most people know   are perfectly wonderful conversations we know that  it's not like well yeah I guess they had a point   they had less than no point and by my show the  Eric matax's show was flourishing on YouTube uh   getting more and more subscribers I'm very  eclectic so uh I'm you know some of it is   comedy some of it is serious discussions about  faith some of it is politics some of it is I'm   interviewing uh uh authors about their books  two years ago I dared to have Naomi wolf who   was one of my classmates at Yale uh liberal  feminist I had her on the show I interviewed   to talk about I know yeah to talk about yeah  vaccine I didn't even choose the subject   I had a few other people on the show to talk  about some things but the show was not focused   you know on on those kinds of things but you too  wiped my program out completely didn't just take   some videos down wiped the entire program the  Erica Texas show ceased to exist on YouTube   and I thought to myself if you're standing back  objectively looking at the situation you'd say   well that's interesting why would they do that  in other words this is not uh this doesn't look   good for the people at YouTube they look like  fascists they are acting in a fascist way they   are globalists they are uh cultural marxists but  of course there's a good dose of fascism in there   they don't believe in Freedom they don't believe  in free speech they have an agenda and they have   tremendous power which they are now using because  as we all know they are scared to death of the   truth they are so scared that they're willing  to look like the monsters that they are because   they have nothing left to lose so when we say  what are the parallels to to Germany in the   30s you don't suppose that in 1933 most people  knew what was coming nobody could have dreamed   of the death camps I mean they didn't discuss  the final solution for another eight years uh   nobody saw what was coming but people with eyes  to see people like Dietrich Bonhoeffer they could   smell this they said um if you follow the dots  they lead in this direction the people who are   seizing power now and being allowed to seize  power now by cowardly people by confused people   those people trying to seize power when they get  the power they're going to use it for very Wicked   ends their presuppositions are the antitheses  of our presuppositions they are atheistic they   don't believe in good or evil they only believe  in power and and the cultural Elites the globalist   cultural Elites today are working with the same  presuppositions they couldn't care less about the   things that most of us would would take for  granted the Dignity of the human being the   sanctity of Life all of these things that people  have uh lived for and died for they are not only   uh not interested in those ideas they're at war  with those ideas and so there are you know some   parallels that we can make and some that we can  make but but basically we you and I have never   seen anything like this in the west and it's it's  it's astonishing the speed at which these things   have been happening in the last week YouTube  took down my discussion about what is a woman   and Associated issues in that direction with Matt  Walsh and they took down a video that was a year   old that I did with Helen Joyce who's an economist  journalist and a very credible person on the   trans minor surgery scandals in the UK which have  resulted in the change of a number of UK policies   not that podcast specifically but those issues  but most relevant as far as I'm concerned they   took down a discussion I had with Robert F Kennedy  and the reason for that in principle was he veered   into the vaccination criticism domain and you know  it's not like I walk arm and arm across the desert   with Robert F Kennedy I think he's an interesting  person he's a bull in the china shop just like   Trump and God only knows what he's up to or what  he'll do but but here's the issue he's running for   president and he's in the middle of a presidential  campaign and YouTube took down one of his videos   and I'm looking at this from outside my country  Canada is as screwy as you can possibly imagine   and then some but I never expected to see this  in the United States that a corporation would   interfere with an ongoing presidential candidates  in the United States is it I mean when you're   dealing with Google any of these companies they  are and this is an interesting thing and this is   why if you're a [ __ ] for money you don't care  whether someone is patriotic or has any Fidelity   to American principles and most people most  politicians don't care uh but we need to care   so the idea that you would have Google uh allying  itself with China and uh you know as I say why   for money okay what could be more difficult well  you know I well no no I can tell you something   that's more Despicable than that I think that if  you're whoring for money so to speak that there's   actually something predictable and admirable  about that and let me lay the argument out   okay partly because if I know that you were are  actually motivated by money and even if that's   your single there's there's nothing wrong with  being motivated by that but you you and I know   that there are limits if somebody says um you  know it's like that scene in the third man uh   if I know I can make a certain amount of money  Orson welles's character you know if a few of   those people disappear who cares in other words  this has always been the question right somebody   says well you you can make a lot of money but  it's going to involve you're aligning yourself   with people who are torturing and murdering and  sexually abusing people are you okay with that   most people would say I hope no some people say  well I don't know um but the point is what we're   talking about right now is people who are looking  the other way they would gladly do business with   slave Traders they would gladly do business with  the Nazis if they could make a buck they cynically   some of them believe listen if I'm not going  to make a buck here someone else will I might   as well make a buck and that's what we're dealing  with now with all of these globalist corporations   well I think it's worse on the YouTube front  because they've left me alone up till now   and I think that what they're doing to buttress  their ideology is actually counterproductive at   least in this situation on the economic front the  thing that frightens me about the YouTube video   log types is that I think that they would act  even against their own narrow economic self-inter   correct push their damage well that's what I mean  by worse if you're honestly greeting I agree with   you no no no no okay I agree with you okay but the  point is it's mixed the point is yes when Hitler   uh took over in in the 30s um some people  it's just like today's exactly like today   because this is human nature they simply  didn't want quote unquote any trouble so   they were willing to look the other way  when something bad was happening there   were some people didn't want to lose their job so  there's an economic thing but the point is evil   never operates in a vacuum it works with  things like human interest and the question is   there's this amalgam of things going on for some  it's purest greed how much money can Pfizer and   Company make they don't give a damn about  the side effects or the what they're people   who are in it for the money and there's so much  money that they're willing to look the other way   there are other people who are pulling the  levers uh other people that uh couldn't   possibly need more money whether it's  George Soros or Bill Gates so it's an   amalgam of things and we're dealing with all  these things we're asking the question how   does evil operate that's how evil operates in  in every kind of way and every single person   has a choice whether to participate or to say  I refuse to participate I would rather do the   right thing uh and trust God with the results and  that's why in letter to the American church I'm   writing specifically to those people Christians  who claim uh to believe in in the god of the   Bible to believe that Jesus defeated death on the  cross well if you believe that you are going to   presumably behave differently uh because you  believe that because you have okay so you said   okay you said something core there you know  um and I finally scored to no no no no no no   no no we're just getting closer and closer to the  point which is a good thing to do in a discussion   so you you're implying and also stating explicitly  a theory of Christianity and one of the key points   that you just made was that if you have faith  which by the way I think is a form of courage   it's a form of existential courage it's a decision  to stake yourself on something you will you said   do the right thing and let God care take care  of the consequences okay so my understanding   of that is that I've been I've been trying to  conceptualize faith I suppose to some degree and   you know the atheist types and the materialists  think that faith is the willingness to suspend   disbelief in the service of a fairy tale and I  think that faith is something entirely different   than that I think it's the willingness to stake  yourself on the truth in the faith that whatever   happens when you tell the truth is the best thing  that could possibly happen and not regardless of   the short-term consequences right because people  lie because they want to manipulate the short-term   consequences they think they can get away with it  they think they'll gain something from it okay so   I think no no you tell the truth and sometimes  you're going to pay a price for that but it's   nowhere near as much of a price as you're bloody  well going to pay if you lie now you might be too   stupid and willfully blind and naive and crooked  and devious and deceptive to understand that but   doesn't mean you're right so this so you said  do the right thing and let God take care of   the consequences well that's the statement of  faith now this letter you wrote is that the   message that you're sending to the to the American  church are you telling people say what you believe   to be the case or suffer the consequences  is it or is that is that the central issue   uh in a word yes yes uh those were that was two  words but it was the same word so it counts as one   word yes uh that's the thesis if someone claims  uh to believe in the god of the Bible which I do   um then there's no question that God requires of  us to behave as though we believe what we claim   to believe and one of the Theses of my book letter  to the American church is that just as the German   Church drifted tragically um in its conception  of what is Faith so to the American church has   drifted in other words they have adopted a kind  of uh Enlightenment rationalist view of faith   faith is what I believe which means what I what I  believe intellectually I sent to I assent to these   ideas so I ticked these boxes these theological  boxes somebody says what do you believe and they   say well go go to the website of my church there's  a statement of faith that's what I believed well   that's a fig Leaf it does not fool God it does  not fool the devil if you actually believe   what the Bible says what the Nicene Creed says if  you actually believe those things you will behave   as though you believe those things it will  affect your life you will live with courage   um because you know too much not to live with  courage you're afraid of living fearfully so   I thought to myself that idea Bonhoeffer wrote a  book uh the cost of discipleship where he famously   talks about cheap Grace because the excuse given  by the Germans uh the theologians and and pastors   at the time was that well uh it's all about  Grace it's it's less about what we do because   Luther said oh we're not saved by our works well  congratulations you're correct you're not saved by   your Works however there is a little scripture in  the Epistle of James that says faith without works   is dead in other words if you're foolish enough to  believe that you can have faith and not events it   in how you live then you're a fool then actually  biblically you have no faith and so I think that   that bad idea about Grace and Faith which you  know we we get and again these are always you   know these are good ideas taken to extremes right  oh you know faith is what I believe uh yes that's   that's a nice idea but it can become unmoored from  the reality that what you believe has to be lived   out it has to be an integral part of of who you  are it has to be holistic and and the Germans were   particularly guilty of this and what I'm saying is  that the American church is particularly guilty of   this today and it's always manifested in the idea  that oh we shouldn't be political and I thought to   myself what that's preposterous if if if you're  against slavery uh and you you live in the mid   19th century uh people will say oh you're you're  being political just stick to the gospel well   that's what Hitler said to the pastors just stick  to your little your little gospel I'll worry about   the Third Reich I'll worry about everything else  you just worry about your little Theology and that   thin theological view that some Christians have of  what it is to have faith is profoundly wrong it is   unbiblical your theology has to be lived out it  has to be integrated into every part of your life   um and and that's where we have drifted to this  idea that people say I can be against something   in my mind but I don't have to do anything about  it I don't have to live out my life heroically I   don't have to put my life on the line I don't have  to put my career on the line if you believe these   things then of course you have to put your life in  your career on the line otherwise it's obvious you   don't believe these things the Bible is a root  of wisdom inspiration and spiritual nourishment   the Hallow app empowers you to explore the Bible's  profound teachings and to effortlessly incorporate   them into your daily life a great place to start  while you deepen your understanding in the Bible   is to check out father Mike schmitz's Bible in a  year available on the Hallow app exclusively for   brief daily readings and Reflections here you can  dive into an extensive library of Bible reading   plans accompanied by insightful Reflections  and audio guided meditations whether you're   a seasoned Bible reader or just starting your  journey hallow provides a platform for you to   engage with scripture like never before studying  the Bible's 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have the Privileges of a king doesn't  mean that you're uh what walking the road to the   to the kingdom of heaven right the mere fact that  you've been provided with or perhaps even earned   that's more complicated with a certain degree of  material Prosperity isn't uh a signal message from   God that you are on the right side of things  so you can't confuse works with Grace or with   Redemption and you can't assume that someone who's  rich is a more moral agent than someone who's poor   merely because they have plenty so that's the  point I think Luther was trying to make that's   my I actually I wrote a uh 450 Page biography  of Luther uh and nowhere in my book do I touch   on that idea so I think it may follow from some of  what Luther says but I don't think principally he   I mean what you just said is an important point  but I don't get it from Luther I mean I get it   from other places he he doesn't seem to me ever  to have worried about that that doesn't seem to be   uh on on the list of things he was dealing with uh  yeah well I could walk back my claim I I would say   then in that that my understanding is that that's  the underlying rationale of the Protestant claim   that you're not saved by works it's more that the  works themselves and their manifestation aren't   inevitable proof of of what would you say God's  appreciation for your existence all right let me   let me uh let me put it this way the the point and  I think my dear friend Dennis Prager and I would   would differ on this and it came out in your  conversation with him but I think the idea uh   you know one of the principal ideas of the New  Testament and one of the principal things that   Jesus was trying to say to clarify you know uh why  uh many of the religious leaders of his time were   off was that um what you what you think uh your  inner life is vital is is is Central so if you   write a big check to some wonderful charity um  yes it counts it goes to to help you know medical   research for uh cancer in children yes that's  there's a reality there but if in your heart   you only did it uh to impress some woman that  you want to sleep with God sees that he doesn't   just grade you on the externals he's interested  in your heart in the disposition of your heart   um and so so Luther uh I mean there's so much  to there's so much to Luther but I think the the   issue is that Luther was making this distinction  what what he was worried about was this idea that   uh you know you go through the mumbo jumbo and  the rigmarole of the church and that's all that   counts and he was saying no no no no no no uh it  is your faith that counts and in other words right   and you're and you're making an existential case  in some ways for that Faith which is that it's   not Ascent to a series of explicit propositions  but a mode of conducting yourself in the world   and part of that mode is that you say what  you you say what strikes you as true that's   what you do that's how you live your life and  if you do that well that's part parcel well it   reveals Christian faith yes it reveals that you  a that you believe there's such a thing as truth   and B that you believe that the  author of that truth who is god   um is with you in this in other words you don't  say well hey I'm just gonna I'm just gonna do   this because it's the noble thing it's like no  no I believe in a reality where God is with me   and only with me when I speak the truth and live  the truth and I can trust him with the results   um trust yourself how do you trust yourself  like so fair enough I I buy the argument I I   think it's I think it's accurate I think it's the  most accurate argument some ways but then you come   to the next problem which is well there's God and  then there's you and you're just a confused human   being and so how the hell how do you take steps to  ensure that your judgment about what constitutes   the truth is reliable even in your own eyes  well first of all you have to want it to be   you have to care you you have to uh have enough  humility to know that you could get it wrong   um and therefore to cast yourself on God and  say Lord help me because I know that I'm a   fallen sinful uh human being I got that much  that's clear to me and so it without your help   I will screw this up um so so it's it's um this is  part and parcel of what it is to be free you know   that that it comes with risks you can get it wrong  but to be cynical and not to try to get it right   is really wicked so this cheap Grace you talked  about too which so so I have this interpretation   of I'm sure it's not unique to me but of one of  The Commandments which is do not use the lord's   name in vain and people like to think that means  don't swear and I think in a very trivial sense   that is what it means but what it really  means as far as I can tell is don't pretend   to be doing the work of the Divine when you're  Feathering your own nest right and I really   see this as a particularly egregious sin of  the times pride is the sin of the times and   so is deception pride and lies and of course I  think those are the two canonical sins in some   real sense but this notion of easy moral virtue  almost everything I see on the ideological side   appears to me to be an attempt to Proclaim moral  virtue and the accompanying status and perhaps   even the pathway to Redemption without doing any  of the work at all and I think the universities   are terribly complicit in this because what  they basically tell students is the secular   equivalent I think of what you're complaining  about on the Christian side which is well you   don't really have to be a good person which  by the way is a very difficult thing to do   um and the consequence of not doing that is any  everyone ends up in hell but you don't really have   to be a good person you just have to be against  the right things and conveniently that'll require   um you know a little protesting on your part and  conveniently it will enable you to to what would   you say see the devil and everyone else and not  in yourself at all and then you've paid your price   and you can trumpet your moral virtue and Away  you go down the road all of which is a satanic   counterfeit of the truth uh I I was at Yale in the  80s and I saw this for the first time I grew up   in a working class home um uh no one had gone to  college so here I am uh at Yale and for the first   time I saw that we didn't know the term virtue  signaling but it was all there already in yeah   so yeah what are you taking in the in the Academy  I was taking penicillin but we can't talk about   that just kidding just kidding no I was I was uh  I guess that's how you Canadians put it I was uh   I was an English major uh oh yeah yeah English  literature at Yale yeah but but the thing is   that that concept well I managed uh to avoid uh  critical theory and and all that although I did   once escort Jacques derida across a courtyard with  an umbrella I wrote a poem about it but the point   is that while I was there for the first time I  saw the virtue signaling and I was taken in by   it I was young and naive and and foolish and I  for the first time saw you don't say this you   say this uh be careful about this but you know we  we don't say Oriental we say Asian we say this is   what we're supposed to believe that we're all of  that kind of stuff and I kind of thought oh well   you know to get along because I I have to yes but  it was there in in strength in the 80s already and   of course it filtered its way down down down into  the culture and right right from Yale and right   from The English Department as a matter well  that's true that's quite that's quite right   quite right yeah it's unpleasant to talk about  so let's avoid it but but um the point is that   it is ultimately I mean there's great irony irony  is is the happy way of putting it it's it's uh   think about this you're dealing with cultural  Marxism they don't believe in God they don't   believe in truth they don't believe in good or  evil they believe in nothing but power but somehow   they have to cannibalize truth and they have to  talk about things like racism and they have to   talk about things like that's right and that's  wrong and we care about the marginalized and of   course what we want to ask is excuse me why do  you care about those things in others you say   racism is wrong I agree but I know why it's wrong  why do you say that it's wrong if you don't get   your values from the Bible which says that we're  all created equal in God's image if you get your   values from quote unquote science and blind  Darwinism then who's to say that some people   aren't more evolved than others in other words  according to what you claim to believe you have   zero basis on which to make any claims about  morality about what's right or wrong so you're   gaslighting all of us you're telling us shut up  don't ask questions do this don't do that don't   say this don't say that and everybody is kind  of uh bullied into going along with it oh okay   okay but we ought to say excuse me you know not  only are you wrong about everything you're not   you don't even have any basis on which to make  any of these claims so the idea that this was   uh born in you know derida Foucault critical race  Theory critical theory uh gram sheet this kind of   bubbles its way through the decades until here we  are living with Madness on every front we are to   be pro-reality is to be a radical in this day and  age to be a revolutionary and a radical is to be   pro-reality so let me throw another idea at you  so I've been doing a lot of writing and thinking   about the biblical stories well for a very long  time and very intensely recently and I've spent   many many hundreds of hours I suppose thinking  about the story of Cain and Abel which is a story   that never ceases to terrify me right to my core  and what you see in that story is the the story   of two principalities making themselves manifest  in some way for the first time right so you have   Abel who makes the proper sacrifices who dedicates  himself to God who looks upward and does what's   actually necessary and true and reaps the benefit  as a consequence and then you have Cain who you   know he's not so much into the sacrifice thing  and his sacrifices are second raid and he's trying   to pull the wool over the eyes of God and that  doesn't work out very well and so then he calls   God on God's misbehavior and says to him I don't  know what sort of Cosmos you think you hacked   together here but I'm busting myself in pieces  and all I get is misery why don't you straighten   yourself up and God says well if you did things  properly things would probably go okay for you   and that makes Cain murderously angry and envious  and resentful and bitter and cynical and so then   he goes and kills Abel and I think that's exactly  what's happening today is that what we point to   as Marxism is just the most recent rational  manifestation of the eternal spirit of Cain I think that's accurate I think you're a  pretty sharp cookie I think you're ready to   go professional uh honestly that's the one all in  man you no but I mean that's that's a wonderful uh   exegesis I I had never thought of that really but  uh it seems to me dead on and I think that it only   took me 40 years to think it through yes well but  it's but but the thing is what you just said uh   I don't remember your phrasing but it's the same  thing over and over and over again in other words   we're talking about human nature right and in fact  you see this happen even earlier in scripture uh   than Cain and Abel when uh when Adam and Eve  make for themselves aprons of fig leaves right   in other words that's the first religious act  religious in the negative sense let's fool God uh   we know something's wrong okay so all human beings  throughout history have known something is wrong   uh how do we address it well that's what religion  is right we say that there's this gulf between us   and the gods there's this uh break uh how do we  deal with that well that that's what religions   purport to do to to somehow repair the breach or  to climb the ladder uh from here to there we know   we're not there we need to get there to to Heaven  uh to to some place other than here how do we do   that how do we appease the Gods uh how do we lure  the Gods uh into coming to our Aid that's what   religion is and in our hearts we we we we we often  do it in a way that there's there's deception   notice it's like well how do I fool God Adam and  Eve say we're going to cover our nakedness with   with with fig leaves now which apparently aren't a  very good covering I talked to Matthew pejo about   that and fig leaves turn out to be not exactly  the sort of leaf with any that anyone with any   any sense would ever use to cover themselves so  it's a pathetic attempt as well as a deceptive   attempt well it's it it I didn't I didn't know  that nor is it relevant but since it's your show   we're going to let that ride let me tell you why  the Fig leaves are insufficient God then this is   just an amazing thing you've probably seen this  but I'm I'm fascinated by this that in the first   few verses of Genesis it shows Adam and Eve doing  something to sort of fool God they know something   is wrong because For the First Time Of course  something is wrong they're no longer Walking with   God and they're they've broken the relationship  with God and they try to do something about it and   God deems what they have done insufficient and it  says he makes for them animal skins in other words   blood had to be shed innocent animals had to be  killed and blood had to be shed in order that they   could be covered which is of course a prefiguring  of the sacrifice and the death of Jesus blood has   to be shed you think you can cover these mistakes  on your own with these little religious acts and   things and God says no no you don't understand  the depth of the horror blood innocent blood   has to be shed to cover what you have done and  of course when you refer to Cain and Abel it's   the same kind of thing I'm trying to do I'm trying  to do this and this this and God and God says no   this is what's required right it has to be a real  sacrifice that's able sacrifice crisis right and   there are also sacrifices that involve blood so  imagine where we are to today that you have people   um I mean they've effectively created a false  religion which is particularly horrifying and   wicked uh it's it's almost like a you know  we're we're seeing it now with the with the   with the sheer lunacy of the The Pride uh  Juggernaut you know that everybody has to   be bullied into agreeing with what whatever  it is and not agree but it's celebrating and   worshiping yes if you don't say Heil Hitler  loud enough people will look at you funny   um why you you seem to say Heil Hitler with  some trepidation Perhaps Perhaps you don't   like the fuhrer uh you know in other words  if if you don't heartily express uh Your   Enthusiasm and approval of X Y and Z people  look at you funny and so if you don't have any   um connection to God or to truth or to reality  then you you look around and go oh what what do   I need to do so that people won't look at me  funny so that I might not lose my job or lose   my friends what do I need to do what do I need  to post on social media what what how do I need   to uh you know out before what do I have to not  say and so that's again you know you see this all   through history uh but the reason I wrote letter  to the American church is because you know it's   my thesis that Christians have no excuse uh  in this you claim to believe in the ground of   all being you claim to believe in the god of the  Bible that he you know not just died for you but   literally bodily rose from the dead and defeated  to death if you believe that which you claim to   you will behave differently you will behave  fearlessly as Martyrs and others have throughout   the centuries that's what's required of us  and we've been kind of drifting along with   everything you know pretty fine we kind of  thought like well we don't we don't actually   have to give our lives or or maybe lose our  jobs or whatever you have a lot of pastors   um you know to put this even uh more pointedly  who they're worried about maybe losing their   501c3 tax deductible status by saying something  vaguely political from the pulpit and I thought   what kind of cowards can you be you're supposed  to be speaking truth you're supposed to care about   people out there not just in your congregation but  out there in the world so that if you were alive   in slavery times you would be speaking against  this satanic abomination of the slave trade as   Wilberforce did uh and against slavery as people  did and when people say oh you're being political   just stick to theology you say excuse me what  kind of theology do I have what kind of gospel   am I preaching if I don't care about people  who are suffering Horrors if I if I'm silent   everyone's talking about how chat GPT and  artificial intelligence are going to change   the world Microsoft and Google are investing  heavily in AI they're also the same big tech   companies that determine your search results only  now they get to cut out a whole new layer from the   information you see that's why I use expressvpn  to add that layer of protection back between me   and big Tech the expressvpn app hides your unique  IP address on all of your devices this makes it   much more difficult for big Tech to identify who  you are expressvpn is so easy to use all I have to   do is tap one button on my phone or computer to  turn it on and that's it but expressvpn doesn't   just protect me from Big Tech it also encrypts  100 of my online traffic keeping me safe from   hackers and prying eyes and the best part is one  expressvpn subscription covers up to five devices   at the same time so stop letting big Tech Leach  onto your data freely by visiting expressvpn.com   Jordan that's exp r e s s vpn.com Jordan and get  three extra months free if expressvpn.com Jordan in Canada and I burst onto the scene I supposed  to speak so to speak in 2016 it was on this trans   issue peripherally but for me it was the  government was mandating a certain form of   speech right the government said well here's the  words you have to use and I thought there's no   goddamn way I'm letting you bikers take control  of my tongue because I know what happens when   that happens and what happens is everyone ends up  in hell and although it's sort of like hell being   in Trudeau's Canada it's not as bad as it could  get but it'll certainly get there if everybody   holds their tongue when they have something to say  I've been reading Jonah so here's something cool   right and you tell me what you think about this  it's sort of like the Cain and Abel situation so   God comes to Jonah and says well you got some  things to say there buddy get yourself to the   city and make some noise and Jonah being a very  wise man thinks up yours God I'm going the other   direction like anyone sensible would right right  and so he jumps on a boat right and away he goes   but the storms rise eyes and he admits his sins  and the sailors throw him overboard and then you   think well that's pretty rough on poor Jonah God  told him to SPO to speak and he was silent now   he's going to drown and then you'd read and you  think oh well drowning would have been real good   for Jonah because the next thing that happens is  the worst possible Creature from the darkness of   the Abyss comes up and pulls him to the bottom of  reality itself where he cooks away for three days   and so you don't just end up in the damn water  you end up in hell if you shut your mouth when   you have something to say you've just given it  a vaguely jungian gloss which I will pretend not   to notice um honestly uh these stories I mean  I don't know how to respond except to say yes   uh again wonderful exegesis and look these  stories which are from sacred scripture are   their uh they're fathomless you know the meaning  truth I mean it just uh it's I I run a series   um a conversation series called Socrates in the  city um and the idea is Socrates uh you know being   Greek I had to uh name in soccer season City but  Socrates said the unexamined life is not worth   living now he was not a Christian but he had the  good sense to believe that there's probably this   thing called Truth we could probably arrive at it  by asking questions and honestly trying to answer   the questions and that again there's a pre  supposition that that Socrates has and he   says it's worth risking and it's worth examining  Our Lives when he says the unexamined life is is   not worth living and I think you know you have  to be a particularly fearful shallow person to   say I don't have time for that I just want to  get by tell me what I need to do how many Jews   do I need to kill how many blacks do do I need  to enslave like you tell me what I need to do   oh do I need to say this oh no now today I need  to say the opposite of that just tell me what   in other words the idea that you would you know  sell your soul for a mess of pottage to go back   to your Cain and Abel reference it's an amazing  thing and I I think if we're honest we know we   are all guilty of that to some extent but to the  extent that you are aware of your guilt you want   to wake up others and that's what I I'm hoping  to do is to say folks those of you who claim to   be Christian this is again I I write all of my  books for everyone and I can make the case for   why I believe in the Christian faith but I'm  talking in this last book led to the American   Church specifically to those who already claim to  believe this and I say listen if you believe this   you're on the hook for for actually leading the  way in leading in in in leading the way in showing   people what courage looks like in showing people  that no no there is this thing called Truth and we   are made uh to speak truth and to act truth and we  believe that you know what even if I lose my life   I don't lose my life but you know Bonhoeffer uh  famously when he was being led to the Gallows   you know he he knew that he says you know this is  this is the end but for me the beginning of Life   if you know that Jesus has risen from the dead you  know that this is not all there is you're going to   live dramatically differently than someone who's  scared to death of dying um and so what I'm saying   to those who claim to be Christians today is you  ought to be leading the way you pastors ought to   be shouting this from your pulpits fearlessly all  of these lies uh all of these efforts to silence   us are satanic and by the way they are harming  human beings just as the Silence of the Pastors in   Germany led to the uh you mean double mastectomies  you mean those human beings that is one   prominent example if you care about them and by  the way God commands us to care about them and   to love them then you will speak up for them if  you don't you're not loving them and God judges   you as guilty and he will hold you to account  because you claim to Believe In The God Who says   you're supposed to care about them so that's  one issue one very dramatic you know there's   also there's a a line I was just writing about  this the other day about stripes and so Christ   says if you do not know and you transgress it's  something like that you will be punished with a   certain burden of Stripes but if you know and you  sin then you will be punished much more harshly   and this is the situation the Christians you're  addressing actually should find themselves in   because they've already made this claim to know  right they've already made this claim to Faith   and are attempting to accrue the status that goes  along with that and some of them actually do know   you know that they need to tell the truth or else  and the the notion there is that if you do already   know that and you still lie um you're going to be  punished much more harshly than those who lie who   are also ignorant and I believe that's also true I  certainly saw that my clinical practice if because   it's partly because if you lie there's a sin there  obviously because you go off the path but if you   know you're lying and you're transgressing against  your own moral code then not only are you lying in   the moment but you're betraying your innermost  self right you're betraying your ultimate core   in the most real sense and you are absolutely 100  percent going to pay for that and so is everybody   around you this is what verified me I want to  ask you why you became a Christian like what   terrifies me into religious submission it just  seem like this thing yeah okay well you went   to Yale and you're in the English Department  and that was before you had a conversion what   happened to you what happened in the conversion  and why did you switch your tune laughs that's   the funniest way of putting it that I've ever  heard thank you for that why did I switch my tune   um yeah I was you know I was raised in the  Greek Orthodox church and I had a vague Faith   um at Yale which is extraordinarily was then  and of course is now dramatically more secular   hostile to genuine biblical Faith um hostile  to uh the ideas the American ideas of freedom   and so on and so forth I uh you know foolishly  drank that Kool-Aid and drifted into um genuine   agnosticism and I was dramatically lost I was  really um you know I wasn't some proud atheistic   sinner I was just lost uh and um ultimately  we could talk about this later but ultimately   um I found myself horror of Horrors moving back in  with my parents my European immigrant uh parents   who had worked menial jobs to put me through Yale  University and they're kind of looking at me like   so why are you back here again what are you doing  here but I was totally lost and in that season of   my life I was 24 I got this horrible menial job  uh as a proofreader at Union Carbide in Danbury   Connecticut the uh the Hebrew word is gehenna it  was awful and and in that misery I met someone   who began to share his faith with me and I was  initially hostile or at least not wanting to   hear it uh for for many many months and long story  short around my 25th birthday uh I had a dramatic   miraculous dream uh in which in a nutshell God  spoke to me so unequivocally that there was no   going back it was game over I say it's like  going to sleep single and waking up married   would you tell me the dream now sure um it's it's  actually hard to do justice to it um it it uh   it it encompasses three parts of my life part  of the reason it was so staggering to me as   I was having this dream because I don't I don't  dream very much and I had never ever had a dream   anything like this this was a this was another  category of dream it was like having a vision   in the context of a dream I was  unconscious of course I was sleeping but   um I have to say a couple of things for the for  background so you get the vocabulary number one   grew up uh as the son of immigrants my father  from Greece uh you know very like most Greeks   inordinately proud of being Greek and wanting  to uh raise his kids in in that tradition and   so that was a very important part of my growing up  that I am Greek that I uh this is my my identity   um once uh my father uh we were at a light I  mean I I I I I still drive there today and at   this light we saw the car in front of us on the  bumper that had one of those you know Chrome fish   this is in the 70s and my father says do you  know what that is and he explains to me that   that's the Greek word for the Greek word for  fish uh is is um is ichthys and it's spelled   um you know it's an acronym well the word is  ichthys so but the early Christians adopted   that symbol of the fish as a symbol of the  Christian faith because the word fish is an   acronym for isus Christos Theos Iman sotir Jesus  Christ the son of God our savior so they use the   symbol of the fish because to them the symbol  of the fish meant ichthys Jesus Christ the son   of God our savior so it's the secret symbol of the  Christians and my father was you know thrilled to   tell me that's a Greek word and that's where that  comes from uh and so I always Associated that fish   with with Christ after I saw that so again it's  by way of background fishing was very important   to me growing up also I should say that you know  if I had a hobby other than like watching sitcoms   um it was uh it was fishing that was very  important to me so you like so all things up from   the depths don't get young in on me you do that  on your own time okay so so yeah yeah of course so   um basically uh around this 25th birthday if you  said who are you you know in your guts it was well   the Greek background and my family was vitally  Central to who I was secondly this idea of fishing   this was this was my main my only hobby the thing  that I did when I when I had time but thirdly the   life of the mind when I went to Yale suddenly I  cared about the meaning of life and I really was   an English major I realized even somewhat at the  time because I'm trying to figure out the nature   of Reality by reading these great novels in the  western Canon I'm putting together these pieces to   figure out what is the nature of reality what is  the meaning of life and I was actually doing that   uh without doing it particularly intentionally  it was just instinctively the life of the mind   um and I came up and I have to say  this so then the dream will make sense   I came up with um you know as only a  pretentious undergraduate could do I   I think I've I've got to figure it out uh  that uh it's it's kind of like a literary   Trope it's an image of of a frozen lake uh and  what all religions world religions mean to do   is so this is where it becomes Freudian  and jungian and you must forgive me but   the idea of a Frozen like I thought this is a  perfect image for what religion tries to do you   have this ice on the top of the lake which is like  the conscious mind the ice is the conscious mind   and our goal is to drill through the ice to touch  the water which is the collective unconscious we   want to touch the Divinity the godhead again  Jung's idea not the Bible's idea but but this   idea that uh that's what God is the collective  unconscious so I had this image that I developed   you know as an undergraduate like okay so that's  what all religions are trying to do they're trying   to drill through the conscious mind to touch the  other side to touch the collective unconscious   which is the kind of new age idea of the Divinity  the godhead whatever that is so I I bring all   of this you know into my 24th year and around  my 25th birthday have this dream in the dream   I'm standing on a frozen lake Candlewood Lake in  Danbury Connecticut I'm ice fishing with friends   and I look at the whole in the ice and I see what  you never see if you're ice fishing I see a fish   pointing its snout out of the hole and I look  at it and I reach down and I lifted up by the   Gill because it was a a pickle or a pike they  have very sharp teeth and you'd never lipland a   fish like that so I I pick it up and in the dream  I lift it up and it's a large uh pickerel or Pike   and anybody who knows that fish knows  that it has a kind of bronze coloring but   on that glorious winter day the Sun was  shining brightly the sky couldn't be   Bluer the ice and the snow couldn't have been  whiter and I hold up this fish in the dream   and I see that because of the sun it looks  golden and suddenly in the dream I realize   no it it doesn't just look golden it is  golden it is a golden fish made of gold   like in a fairy tale but it is alive a living  golden fish and in that moment in the dream God effectively drops this into  my head like in paragraphs I knew   this is God saying to me in this dream you want  it to drill through the ice to touch inert water   to touch the collective unconscious the Divinity  that God had I have something else for you I have   the golden fish ichthys Jesus Christ my son your  savior Jesus Christ how did you know that why   did you make the association between the fish  specifically at that point in Christ what did   that happen in the dream no that's what I'm saying  it happened in the dream I knew but in realization   took place in the dream too the realization took  place within the Dream Within the dream I knew   within the dream that this is Jesus Christ the  son of God our savior I had been searching for   this thing this for to touch in earth water  and God says I'd like to uh I'd like to   um one-up you with your own symbol system I'd  like to give you what you're really looking for   my son your savior Jesus Christ a living being  and when you think about it theologically a   fish coming out of water what is what happens  when a fish comes out of the water it dies um   the idea that God came from his medium to our  medium to die um all of this came clear in the   dream and when I was in the dream holding this  fish I was flooded with joy because what I had   believed you could not know that that the Bible is  true that Jesus is God in the dream I realized no   I I know and as I was holding the fish I realized  I I I I have I have what I'm looking for what I   was looking for which I didn't believe could be  found I this is God he's given himself to me and   in the dream I was flooded with joy within the  dream before I woke up I knew this is true and   I just had this choice so the next day I went and  I told the friend of mine at work the story I said   I had this dream and he says what do you think it  means and I said and I never would have said these   words these words would have made me cringe at any  previous day I said it means I've accepted Jesus   I never would have said that I I Was Made  uncomfortable by people who said that but   uh I knew that I had jumped over the  broomstick uh that I was in another   world that I had accepted Jesus and that's you  know that happened right around my 25th birthday what happened well that's a great Dream by the  way I mean that's that's quite the archetypal   blast you got there that'll that'll thank you to  fish around in the dark yeah you never know what   you're going to catch yeah I really feel like I'm  talking about Jordan Peterson uh it's it's so yeah   it changes everything I mean I was a different  person from that day forward my life changed   very dramatically how are you different how are  you different what changed about you well the   first uh most immediate uh embar uh somewhat  embarrassing manifestation is I immediately   stopped sleeping with my girlfriend of three  years I knew I I can't do that that's for   marriage and I uh I I want God so that's the  sacrifice well yes and no in the sense that   you know people often say that you you know God  always out gives you that whatever you give up for   him is nothing compared to what he gives you and  I had such a sense of his presence in those first   days of my conversion that I thought I wouldn't  give that up for anything I wouldn't do anything   to hinder that that personal relationship with  the God who loves me and died for me and created   the universe that it it was so beautiful and  extraordinary that you you wouldn't do anything   to screw that up you you just know that that's not  about anything well I mean and again but I have to   be real clear again I was unconscious during this  dream this wasn't like I reasoned my way to this   and I could take any credit or particular pride  this happened to me so this is the definition   of a gift from God uh I I knew it was a gift  from from from God and and I just thought I   don't wanna I don't want to screw that up right  right so how did you change in your behavior you   said you stopped sleeping with your girlfriend  and so is that not good enough for you Jordan   yeah that's pretty dramatic that was pretty that  was pretty dramatic for me at age time I suspect   for your girlfriend too well yes of course that's  that's the thing is is that uh you know we when   you choose God you don't know where that's going  to lead you uh but it really that's the fun of it   well that's that's correct that is the fun of  it because God that's the abrahamic adventure eh   whom we can trust wants to take us on a glorious  Adventure he invites us to this glorious adventure   and when you turn it down you think you're turning  down some kind of bummer and it's like no you   don't understand this is what you were made for  this is the adventure of your of your life it's   uh what's the Pink Floyd line you know and did you  trade a walking a walk-on part in the war for the   lead role in a cage you you're being given uh a  role in in the battle between good and evil which   is real God says come with me on this adventure  participate with me in in in this extraordinary   Adventure you've been given the privilege to to  be on the side of good and Truth in this in this   war and you know you follow uh my banner and you  walk with me and this is what you were created   for and imagine saying no no I want to be the  star of my own show uh you know I want I want   to I Wanna I wanna I want the lead role but you  know as Pink Floyd says lead role in Sex in the   City it's well actually it's it's miltonic right  I mean you know I I'd rather reign in Hell than   serve in heaven what could be more foolish than  that nothing yeah right right absolutely well that   that's that's what I think about Power claims too  it's like because people will say well people who   use power are successful and I think well if  you're ruling over hell and are you the least   successful are you the most successful or the  least successful and it seems to me that the ruler   of hell is actually the least successful person  in hell and that's where you get if you use power   so you might be able to rule but it'll be hell and  you think you're the winner but you're actually   the ultimate loser it's it's actually painful to  contemplate I mean genuinely yes well that's why   you should contemplate it that's exactly right  you know I tried to learn the lesson of the of   the Holocaust because that's what we're enjoined  upon to do right never forget well that means   understand and that means while figuring out how  you take those first steps to hell and then the   next steps and then the next steps and then drag  everyone along with you and you definitely do that   by lying there's no doubt about that well I mean I  became the what you're saying you know the the my   Bonhoeffer book which uh you know it's it's it's  it's a 600 Page biography of a German Pastor who   saw these things happening and knew that he must  speak out against it and he tried to wake up the   church because he knew that God specifically  called the church to be the conscience of the   state you claim to believe this and this and this  and this you must stand against this evil and   we know what happened so the idea that all these  years later something similar could be happening   and how many people have said you know we never  we're never going to repeat that again never gonna   and you ask the question okay how are you going  to prevent it did you learn the lessons did you   learn that there is such a thing as satanic evil  when you look at the Death Grips I mean listen   that's the question isn't that the question they  uncovered the death camps I think most people in   the world couldn't believe it it was too horrible  it was too horrible there's something inside us   that says I I can't take that in and I think  that's what we're facing today uh when Naomi   wolf you know dug into the Pfizer documents and  you look at the evil it's it's too much to take   in it will change you when you see the evil uh  of of the the the Chinese Communist party's Will   To Power it's painful to look at and yet we must  look at it we must deal with it we must ask what   what is the answer uh for us what what are we to  do you know you have to respond you cannot look   the other way but the temptation to look the other  way is dramatically strong and that's what I think   people like you and I are hoping to do is to to  tell people no no God is with you in this don't   be afraid yeah yeah well you can be more you can  even be more pessimistic about it in some ways   you know you can tell people well it's going to be  pretty damn brutal if you tell the truth but boy   you want brutal you just keep lying and see where  you end up that'll be brutal Beyond Your Wildest   imaginings man that's absolutely 100 percent for  sure in the course of writing that this new book   my shortest book letter to the American church  I came to the conclusion that as horrific as it   is to think about what the Silence of the German  Church led to the Silence of the American church   now if we do not repent and begin to speak  out boldly against every one of these things   the result will be worse even if possible  than what happened in the Holocaust yeah   well we're more powerful now so why not think  about the whole 20th century as a trial run   and there were no wiser obviously because people  are still you know what did they say they still   allow the cat to have their tongue it doesn't  matter if I don't say what I believe to be   true it's like yeah well you just keep walking  down that road buddy and see where you end up   so hey so what happened what kind of  response did you get from the church   to your book what kind of or what kind of  response are you still getting who's to say   what the church is but I will tell you that  the response has been um very very positive   um I I'm very happy to say that because I had  no clue I didn't write this book as some career   move or a way to make money I just thought I  have this I must write this but the response   has been extraordinarily positive uh I I am I've  never ever gotten as many speaking invitations uh   people email emailing us daily we I bought 20  copies to give it to every Pastor in my area I   I've been thinking this with the thank you for  saying this and stuff so it's uh in fact later   um next week I'm I'm flying to LA to film a  documentary uh which is this book in in in film   uh form to get the message out to a wider audience  uh because the response has been that dramatic in   fact I spoke about this uh at a church uh in in  California some months ago and some people there   and who are in Hollywood and they said we've got  to make a documentary film of of what you just   said of this book we've got to get this message  out so I can say with cautious optimism that uh   the the response has been genuinely  um better than I had feared uh   better than I had hoped even um and I'm I'm  you can understand why I'd be glad to say   that because I have hope in other words I feel  that there are people joining the battle there   are people understanding you know what I got this  wrong and I see that now I was uh you know in the   early days of covet we shut down our church and  we just did whatever the government told us to   do we we'd never seen this before but you're  seeing first of all um wherever I'm invited   to speak it's usually by some heroic pastor and  the story is the same every single time they say   our numbers in this church have tripled quadrupled  quintupled because we were Brave in in the early   days of covert we kept our church open and people  are flocking to us because they say those people   must know something they they they seem to believe  in Freedom they seem to believe in something and   and and those churches have exploded in numbers  the churches that were playing it safe uh are   withering when Jesus right that's no church  plays it safe no no absolutely not no the   church is a real church is the most dangerous  place you could possibly be well that's right   so that's the safest yeah how weird is that  and I well of course well you know the truth   is paradoxical well that's just the the nature of  things but I have to say that you know it's kind   of like if somebody says to George Washington  in 1776 hey George how do you think it's going   um you know I'm seated here on the very Island uh  uh well actually across the East River which is   not a river um from where they had the Battle of  Brooklyn the Battle of Long Island if you'd said   to George Washington in 1776 how's it going how  do you think it's going to go in the natural his   answer would have been we don't know if Providence  before us and we fight with everything we have   um God may give us the victory but he wouldn't  have said like hey we got this you know it's good   no and that's where we are now we are in a battle  uh for Freedom between good and evil and our job   is to fight our job is to fight and to look to  God for leadership and guidance and the results   are in his hands but the the response to this book  has given me reason uh to hope that we might uh   fight on and might eventually uh win in some ways  and might eventually uh yeah what would a victory   look like you know I've wrote this on the Russian  Ukraine front but let's talk about it on this   front Okay so there's a victory all right so what  are you aiming at what's the victory here what is   that well like compared to what's happening now  the the uh the restoration of uh of this nation   America to um foundational principles uh to the  Constitution the uh the draining of the swamp   that is the Deep State the unelected bureaucrats  who are at war with we the people who are at war   with the freedoms enshrined in our founding  documents uh that would be a big part of it   um the the idea that we would again be free that  I would go to a to vote uh and know that my vote   is genuinely counted I wouldn't doubt that um  there are a host of things that would happen   um our freedom to speak the truth whether it  makes people uncomfortable or doesn't the the our   freedom to question things like is this vaccine a  good idea uh our freedom to question whether there   was chicanery uh in that election I mean that's  basic stuff that we have the freedom to question   these things and people can say you're full of  it and we can say okay let's let's debate it   let's discuss it let's open the books let's look  into it that's so basic and those again those are   foundational principles and uh you know to put it  on a higher plane when Lincoln talked about a new   birth of Freedom uh I think it would look like a  new birth of Freedom uh a re-establishment of uh   of freedom and of the promises uh you know quoting  Martin Luther King Jr no the the promissory notes   of our founding documents we have yet to live out  a lot of that uh in many ways we've gone backwards   in the last 50 or so years and so the the  bureaucratic deep State the these people that have   become authoritarian anti-American anti-freedom  I mean all of that has to be dealt with and   um I think that you know we don't know where it's  going to go but not to try uh not to fight and to   try and to pray and to to do that is just you  know beyond pathetic it's complicity with evil   uh and you know Bonhoeffer didn't say it probably  but it's often associated with him silence in the   face of evil is itself evil not to speak is to  speak not to act is to act God will not hold us   Guiltless there are many people that think like  I'm just gonna take a a third I'm gonna I'm gonna   be neutral yeah and you think no you know what  Christ says about neutral people in the Book of   Revelation right yes that's good Cold's good but  sitting in the middle you better watch the hell   out buddy well it's sort of funny though that  people again this is the parallel phrase no no   he didn't uh but but in Germany this is what a lot  of these religious leaders thought that that well   there's a safe religious path we're just going  to stick to quote unquote preaching the gospel   we don't want to get political we don't want to  speak again and that's when you realize that the   parable of the talents in the scripture talk talks  about that that that somebody who cynically says   I'm gonna I'm gonna take this Talent I'm gonna I'm  gonna bury it uh that way I can't lose it and it's   like no you don't understand God requires of us  to be all in if you're not all in you're judged   guilty and there are a lot of people that right  now are just wanting to not get involved I don't   want to be divisive I don't want to bring this  stuff up and you realize well God is is is asking   you just to try to get it right you might not get  it right but you have to try and to not try and   to just to cover your rear end uh is ends up being  Wicked because people are going to suffer because   of your silence people are going to suffer because  of your inaction your passivity and trying to   paint it uh along some religious lines makes you  even more guilty because you're trying to give   this religious excuse for something that is at war  with God himself with his purposes I'm going to   bring Eric over to the Daily wire side because we  haven't we're not on the dark side enough yet so   we might as well go there and uh we're going to  talk a little bit about how his ideas developed   how they made themselves manifest across time  we did that a little bit with his description   of his quite remarkable dream and so a few people  who are watching and listening are inclined you   might want to head over there it's not such  a bad idea to throw a shackle so to speak the   daily wire way at the moment because YouTube has  decided to go to war with us and Them let's say   um of course we didn't say anything inflammatory  today so just to maintain the peace can I say   something inflammatory one final inflammatory  thing hey man I just I wanna no but just because   we we touched on so many things and yet there's so  many things we didn't touch Sean I would like to   shamelessly ask people simply to visit my website  which is ericmataxis.com because there's so many   things that I wanted to say in the course of this  and obviously wasn't able to but it's just my name   if you can spell it it's Greek Eric mataxis.com  but I just um talking to you Dr Peterson you know   it's such a joy because there's so many directions  that we can go in and so many directions that we   did we didn't get to go in but these things are  important these are all profoundly important   beautiful things and let me just say thank you  to you from the bottom of my heart for being   uh a courageous voice in the midst of uh the din  around us well thank you very much for agreeing   to talk to me today and for everybody watching and  listening your attention and time is not taken for   granted we appreciate the fact that you're coming  along for the ride so to speak I'm going to switch   over now to uh the daily wire side and continue  this conversation and uh well very nice to meet   you Eric I'm sure we'll meet again uh no doubt  we'll talk again God willing and uh thank you   again for everybody who's watching listening  to the Daily Word plus crew for putting this   together facilitating these conversations to the  film crew here in Toronto that's much appreciated   as well and uh sayonara sir we'll talk to you on  the daily wire side thank you [Music] thank you

Channel: Jordan B Peterson

Views: 1,236,375

Keywords: Jordan Peterson, Jordan B Peterson, psychology, psychoanalysis, existentialism, maps of meaning, free speech, freedom of speech, personality lectures, personality and transformations, Jordan perterson, Dr Peterson

Id: 41elK59iygE

Length: 93min 14sec (5594 seconds)

Published: Thu Jun 29 2023