Dr. Shannon Curry Pt. 2 | Johnny Depp v. Amber Heard (2022)

all right you have your seats all right cross-examination you can sit down here thank you Dr Curry you're not board certified correct no I'm not not in Clinical Psychology or in forensic psychology correct no I'm a licensed clinical psychologist but you're not board certified no okay and you also have only been practicing approximately eight years is that correct that's not correct how many years I've been licensed for 10 years okay and I've been practicing for about 15 years okay and that includes what you went through with your different trials in Hawaii and everything else that you testified to correct yes okay now you went to Mr Depp's home for dinner and drinks before you were hired as an expert in this case correct that's not quite what right I was interviewed at Mr Depp's home by his legal team dinner was served in attendance with Mr Depp was Adam Waldman correct yes Ben Chu correct yes Camille Vasquez yes okay and the dinner lasted approximately three to four hours correct yes and it includes the interviews correct yes dinner and I believe drinks were served okay and this was before you were hired as an expert correct yes this was an interview so that they could make an informed decision as to whether or not to retain me and don't you think that's a little odd that you're getting interviewed by Mr Depp to decide whether you're going to testify adversely against Amber Heard I was interviewed by the legal team and Mr Depp was present it was his home correct yes and he was serving dinner and drinks he was not serving dinner well it was at his house at his behest correct yes it was at his house okay and you were contacted by Camille Vasquez somebody you knew in the community in February of 2020 is that correct I knew of Ms Vasquez professionally we live in the same city and I work with many attorneys and at that time you not only knew Johnny Depp you'd seen a number of his TV and movie roles and you believed he was a good actor correct not correct I did not know Johnny Depp I've seen several of his movies you knew who he was yes right and you believed he was a good actor yes okay and then you provided an expert designation in this case before ever seen Amber or having an opportunity to review any documents or records isn't that correct I did not provide an expert designation that's that's an attorney thing my opinions are contained in my report it's all about plaintiff's exhibit 884 please this was plaintiff's designation identification of expert Witnesses in this case and this is dated February 2021 that's a year after you went to dinner at Mr Depp's house correct yes okay and it attributes if you go to page 13 it says you have three opinions the first of those is that Amber Heard quote exhibits patterns of behavior that are consistent with co-occurring cluster B personality disorder traits especially borderline personality disorder did I get that right I'm reading that here that is not my opinion okay well but it's a current opinion but this was not an opinion of mine then I didn't have any opinions at that time it says Dr Curry will testify correct that's what it says yes okay and this is a signed pleading correct on behalf of Mr death I I'm not sure I understand what that means we don't understand what a signed pleading is no okay do you understand that Mr Depp's Council prepared this and served it on Ms herd's Council I I'm not an attorney I don't understand necessarily all of these procedures okay are you aware that Mr Depp is on an audio recording years earlier taunting Amber Heard that she has a borderline personality disorder I was made aware of that in this case yes so you were actually not necessarily It's haunting but I do recall hearing that Mr Depp had used that phrase so it's a coincidence that you now think she has those attributes after the attorneys listed it in February 2021 before you'd looked at anything and Mr death had made that accusation to misheard years earlier my opinions aren't based on coincidence objection I'm sorry doctor yes compound I'll sustain the objection all right it's a coincidence then that you came up with symptoms of borderline personality disorder years later after Mr Depp has been taunting Ms heard in an audio tape Clayton can't speak to whether or not there's a coincidence but I can tell you is my opinions are based on the results of my evaluation and it's a coincidence that Mr Debb's Council attributed that to you that said that to you in February 2021 before you looked at anything correct I'm not sure okay now would you agree that a disproportionate number of women are tagged with a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder no that's not quite right 75 the way you phrase it is not quite right tell me tell me what's right okay so there are more women who have been diagnosed with bipolar disorder than men it's more prevalent in women and Trauma can cause borderline personality disorders can't it no never right now we know that there are people who have borderline personality disorder who have sustained childhood trauma there are also people who have borderline personality disorder who have had no childhood trauma so like most personality disorders and really like most mental health issues in general there seems to be both a biological component in this case with borderline personality disorder the research tends to support a genetic component and possibly a neurological component and then there is also possibly an environmental component triggering those genetic markers do you know the percentage of women who are victims of ipv intimate partner violence or domestic abuse who are diagnosed with borderline personality disorders I can't tell you the percentage off at the top of my head but I do know that there is a larger women with borderline personality disorder tend to have a higher prevalence of being involved in Intimate power partner violence relationships being the receiver of violence and being the perpetuators of violence now you've never been asked to testify or serve as an expert with respect to whether someone has a bipolar disorder is that correct a bipolar disorder yes that's not correct okay all right bear with me yes ma'am [Music] thank you thank you do you recall having your deposition taken in this case yes on March 21 2022 I believe that was the date yes and were you under oath at that time yes all right I'm going to ask you to turn to page 207. and the question was have you ever been asked to testify or serve as an expert with respect to whether someone has bipolar disorder and your answer at that time will you please read to the jury I'm sorry page 207 207 line five uh could you know okay thank you now when this designation was served in February of 2021 you had not rendered an opinion that quote misheard exhibits patterns of behavior that are consistent with co-occurring cluster cluster B personality disorder traits especially borderline personality disorder correct I'm sorry I I missed the first part what was that when this designation was served that you have in front of you as plaintiff's exhibit 884 okay you had not rendered an opinion that quote Ms heard exhibits patterns of behavior that are consistent with co-occurring cluster B personality disorder traits especially borderline personality disorder correct no I had not rendered any opinions my opinions weren't finalized until after my evaluation right so when this came out you had not rendered that opinion I had not rendered that opinion okay the second opinion that's listed in the February 2021 is that misheard repeatedly and character illogically perpetuated severe physical and psychological intimate partner violence ipv toward Mr Depp over the course of their relationship end of quote did I read that correctly uh it says perpetrated but other than that yes okay and so it is it correct that they that this pleading says in February 2021 that you are going to testify to that this document yes okay it says that and you have never been asked to testify as to whether anyone has behaviorally or characterologically conducted conduct that suggests they may be an ipv perpetrator correct I have I have to ask that again because I stumbled I can't think character logically that one's just a tough one for me okay you have never been asked to testify as to whether anyone has Behavioral or character logical conduct that suggests they may have been an ipv perpetrator correct no I've never been asked to testify for that okay and that was not your opinion in February 2021 correct no and in fact you do not hold that opinion now and you were not even asked to provide such an analysis or opinion isn't that correct no or that is correct that's correct okay and you have never held that opinion correct no that is correct yes okay and your third opinion if we can go to page 14 was it misheard exhibits patterns of behavior that suggest her allegations of abuse against Mr Depp are false end of quote do you see that I see that you said it's my third opinion that is not my opinion all right but in this pleading it says that you will testify to that correct yes that's what this says okay and that was not your opinion in February 2021 was it no as I said I had not formed any opinions at that time I had just been retained and in fact you have never arrived at this opinion as an expert witness in this case correct in terms of the opinions that I've rendered are provided in my report and you hear what I'm testifying to today and you have never arrived at this opinion as an expert witness in this case correct I I I also sustainable you have never arrived at the opinion that misheard exhibits patterns of behavior that suggest her allegations of abuse against Mr Depp are false correct that's correct okay and in fact you've said that has never been my opinion correct what I'm saying is that this the opinions in here I these are not my opinions my opinions are provided in my report can you please turn to page 255 of your deposition and if we can start on 254 to give that I don't have that page I'm sorry 254 line 11. oh okay and the question is now the next one is quote misheard exhibits patterns of behavior that suggest her allegations of abuse against Mr dab are false end of quote was that your opinion in February 2021 and you answered at that time no correct that is correct and then I asked have you ever arrived at that opinion in the time that you have served as an expert witness in this case and your answer was could you read that to the jury please yes so no it's not the task I was cut off or I essentially what I read I what I said then was drought the task of Dash that was never my task to determine can I say what that means no and then the question is so is it fair to say that you have never arrived at an opinion that quote Ms heard exhibits patterns of behavior that suggest allegations of abuse against Mr Depp are false end of quote and what was your answer well there was an objection all right I'll I'll read it for you if you're having difficult your answer was under oath correct that is not my opinion that has never been my opinion isn't that what we're said on growth on March 21st okay and then I wrote do then I'm going to ask you do you know who wrote this portion of the designation suggesting that these were your opinions in February of 2021 and what was your answer I said no no as of the time of this initial expert designation you had not reviewed any materials reached any opinions correct I believe I just started to review materials I I believe that I indicated that in my deposition I had not yet rendered any opinions I hadn't completed my review and I hadn't conducted an evaluation okay and in fact you've never testified as an expert on ipv intimate partner violence isn't that correct I believe that is correct but I may not be remembering all of my cases so let's go to page 200 okay line 17 my question was have you ever testified as an expert on ipv and your answer under oath then at line 22 was what oh gosh let me catch up line 22. no and you've never testified as an expert on emotional distress damages associated with ipv is that correct that's correct okay and you've never been asked to testify with respect to emotional damages associated with domestic violence or abuse isn't that correct uh again that I'm reluctant to say that's correct because with 15 years of experiences I'll experience a lot of my cases have been complex and that may have been a component but I don't remember explicitly a case being just about that let's go to page 199 line 20. my question to you was have you ever been asked to testify with respect to emotional damages associated with domestic violence or abuse and your answer under oath at that time was no I've not right sorry on the page in time okay you said no I've not but I have not okay now you also have never been asked to testify on whether an individual is being truthful in saying that they are a survivor of ipv is that correct that's correct okay and you have never qualified as an expert to speak to whether a person suffered from ipv intimate partner violence or was a victim or Survivor of ipv is that correct that's outside of the task of a psychologist to determine whether an event occurred we assess Behavior we we assess mental status we don't detect crimes so you have not been asked to testify to that correct it's not something that occurs so no I have not and you were not ultimately asked to provide any opinions on that correct no I was not okay now you did not disclose in any of the designations or your report that you had met with and had dinner and drinks with Mr Depp did you I'm sorry can you repeat that one more time you did not disclose in any of the designations or in your report that you had dinner and drinks with Mr Depp correct I did not disclose that I was interviewed by the legal team no I asked a different question are you trying to resist that you didn't have dinner with Mr Depp and drinks I'm not trying to resist that but it's not quite right did you not and what you had drinks with Mr Depp did you know drinks were served I this was over two years ago I may have had a drink with dinner yes in fact you thought you had a mule something right possibly yes okay and you didn't disclose that you had met with Mr dap Mr Waldman Mr Chu and Ms Vasquez at Mr Depp's house for three to four hours and had dinner and drinks correct I did not disclose that it's not significant to the report you don't think that's significant correct I don't okay but you've never been asked to meet with a client in his Council before being retained as an expert either before or after have you no and you Justified that it was okay in this case because it was a high profile case that's not quite right I Justified it in this case actually I sought consultation about it first of all the person who had retained his attorneys was unable to come to my office with his attorneys and yes this is a very visible case it's been going on a very long time and I understood that there would be a need to interview me and determine make an informed decision about my qualifications foreign can you look at page 240 please line three is my question would you agree it's a highly irregular to meet with the subject in a litigation and your answer on that occasion was I would not say it's highly irregular I would say it's not something that I would typically do however I had not yet been retained on the case this was a large high-profile case and I understood that I believe that it was appropriate for a person retaining me with such a high profile to meet me to be able to vet me essentially with the attorneys present prior to retaining me on his case do you recall that yes that's what you said under oath correct yes and then I said have you ever done that before and you said no correct and then I said have you ever done it since and you said no correct correct okay now would you agree that if you did not find something that would be in favor of Mr Depp and a negative to Ms heard that you wouldn't be an expert in this case essentially you're into court if you're going to say the MS hurt is right Mr Depp is wrong correct so as a forensic psychologist my obligation is to the court is to the fact finder I present science regardless of what that science may be now when I take a case my retainer agreement is explicit about that and I just asking you I'm asking you a question I'd like you to try to answer okay question you understand that if you found favorably to misheard and negatively to Mr Depp you wouldn't be here right you wouldn't be testifying Jackie inspect would have no I okay sorry hold on the objection of speculation I I that's that's not speculation no I'll sustain the objection if you want to ask okay if it goes to bias your honor I assist in the objection next question all right you were in fact so excited about being involved in this case that you told your husband even though this was a highly confidential matter that you were going to be conducting the examination of Ms heard didn't you that is not accurate you not only told your husband but you told Ms heard that you told your husband correct Miss bread off that is not accurate what is accurate you're incorrect that is not correct is your testimony today under oath that you did not tell your husband that you were going to be conducting the examination of Amber that is my testimony okay let's go to page 306. foreign so the question that was asked was because you brought muffins you said from your husband right you get and you gave those to miss heard correct may I clarify what occurred so that we can stop talking about the muffins what happened was that I was getting ready that morning I frequently bring muffins to the office my husband did happen to know that there was going to be a celebrity client coming in because on the mornings that that occurs which often occurs we have to actually clear the office and move the staff to the other office so yes on the one hand he was aware of that I was getting ready I asked him to go to the bakery near our house and pick up the muffins for me because I was running late he often has to do that because I often do run late he brought the muffins back to the house I brought them into the office Miss hurt and I enjoyed the muffins together I think I made a comment to her along the lines like we can thank my husband he brought or my husband got these for us today meaning he purchased the muffins we are now enjoying them because of him did you say on pages 305 and 306 that you frequently have examinations of high profile clients you want to just take a quick look and tell us uh what 305 306 yeah that's where we're talking about it is there a line you'd like me to look at you can start with uh 15. line 15 305. just read through that and tell me whether you said anywhere in there that you have a lot of high profile examinations you do this frequently I don't agree I want to approach please so why did your husband get the muffins for Amber Heard he did not get the muffins for Amber Heard he knew you had a high profile client and he was and you were preparing for a very long time and you asked him to pick up the muffins correct I asked him to pick up the muffins for me yes okay now would you agree that domestic abuse can be verbal absolutely yes would you agree that domestic abuse can be emotional yes certainly would you agree that domestic abuse can be psychological yes would you agree that domestic abuse can be physical yes now you indicated and I believe you testified in your direct that it's very important to review the treatment records before forming opinions is that correct yes okay in fact that's the first thing you would do correct not necessarily the first but it's part of the evaluation go to page 261 and let's go to 260 because that's where I start the question the question I asked was and do you recall whether you'd review any of these by the designation on February 19 2021 and you said okay I can't say for certain what I can tell you is that knowing my normal procedure I would have reviewed the treatment records first did you testify to that under oath then yes okay now before we start getting into the ones that you testified about I just want to be really really clear about what you actually uh have as an opinion with respect to the borderline personality disorder and the histrionics you didn't diagnose you didn't actually have a DSM-5 diagnosis that Amber Heard suffers from either borderline personality disorder or histrionic personality disorder correct that's not correct you're in fact your report says Ms heard demonstrates psychological symptoms of a combined borderline and histrionic personality disorder would you agree yes I did say that in also what designation was that I believe January 18th that report was included yes okay and that's what you said at that time correct yes okay I said a little bit more than that as well you said and I'll read it I'll quote it quote based on the combined results of my interview with Ms heard behavioral observations psychometric test data and review of the available records Ms heard demonstrates psychological symptoms of a combined borderline and histrionic personality disorder bhpd that's what you wrote in your report as one of your conclusions and that's a DSM-5 diagnosis and it did not say that you were diagnosing with a DSM-5 for borderline personality disorder or histrionic personality disorder did it that's what it says in different semantics oh so so so what you meant it did not use the words you just said now let's talk about the treatment records that you said that you reviewed but I'm going to start with Rocky Pennington your testimony was that out of the blue Amber hit Rocky Pennington correct I can't remember exactly what I said but I did reference Miss Pennington's deposition that misheard struck Miss Pennington in the face in fact Ms Pennington testified that she hit Ms heard and in response to that she can't recall but misheard either pushed or slapped her correct I don't recall that's a pretty important distinction don't you think my recollection is that there was some sort of violence both ways in the relationship either way it seems that both of them might have been unstable I'm only evaluating miss her so so now we have an evaluation of Rocky Pennington no I just said but that was not relevant to my opinion because I'm only evaluating Miss hard but you testified to that undirect that that was a factor right yes okay well wouldn't it make a big difference if Amber struck first or just responded back given the dynamic not necessarily no it would not have so so now you're an expert on Rocky Pennington and her Dynamics with Amber hurt s okay so now let's talk about Dr Cowan you not only reviewed his treatment records and his text messages and documents but you also attended his deposition did you not yes okay and do you recall Dr Cowan testifying that Amber told him about depth physically abusing her contemporaneous with the events I don't recall specifically his words but I remember him recalling that she had disclosed abuse in their treatment yes and do you recall Dr Cowan testifying that he received a text message contemporaneous uh that Johnny did a number on me tonight I'm safe in my support tonight but I need some real help do you remember him testifying to that I don't remember the testimony but I do remember seeing that text message as one of the exhibits and do you remember Dr Cowan testifying that on another occasion Amber sent him a text Johnny beat me up pretty good last night end of quote again not in this Constance she she can rely on it thank you thank you I didn't need to argue that far I guess do you recall that again I don't recall the testimony but I do remember that being an exhibit I've seen it do you recall Dr Cowan testifying that not only did he believe Amber in her reporting of the abuse by Deb but that she had no ulterior motive I actually don't recall that I'm not saying that it didn't occur okay do you recall Dr Cohen testifying that he believed the relationship was toxic and he was concerned for Amber's physical well-being I do recall him saying that he believed the relationship was toxic and you don't recall I do not oh insane that he was concerned for Amber's physical well-being I don't remember those exact words do you believe do you recall Dr Cowan testifying in that deposition that you were present for referring to Mr Depp quote his controlling nature jealousy and suspiciousness addiction to drugs and alcohol and violent and indulgent temper do you recall him using those terms to describe Mr death I remember thinking that would be an inappropriate impression for a treating provider of a different person to give but I do recall him making that statement do you recall Dr Cohen testifying that if he pushed her she was going to push him back and I never had the impression that she was the provocateur but that she was indicating to me she had a hard time you know de-escalating these types of situations yes okay and do you also recall him saying that she didn't say she pushed him she just said I got right back up he told me that she told me that he pushed her down and she got back right back up I remember him saying that misheard told him that yes and do you recall him testifying you could interpret it that way I kind of interpret it more you know metaphorically that when somebody comes at her she goes back at them you know in a similar way whether it's verbally or she protects herself I love that I I may I recall something along those lines but it was a six or seven hour deposition so the specifics are not fresh in my mind do you recall Dr Cowan specifically testifying that he believed Amber Heard when she reported the physical abuse by Mr Depp I recall him saying that and following it up with a statement that you have to take the patient at their word when you're the therapist you recall that yes do you recall him saying he took her that he believed her that he found her Believers yes that he found her believable okay um now you also testify about Amy Banks do you recall that yes and before we go there Dr Cohen has been a clinical psychologist for 40 years correct I'm not sure okay well he testified to that didn't he in the deposition I don't recall and he also saw Amber Heard for over two years correct yes from 2014 approximately August 2014 to 2000 through 2016. correct yes he did for a period of time would you agree okay and he also testified that he did not diagnose Amber with borderline personality disorder do you recall that testimony he also testified that he doesn't use diagnoses but yes I do recall that and do you recall that it was in those words were in his notes but he said he had written that down but then he discounted and determined that that was not correct for her are you an approach all right now let's jump to Amy Banks Dr Banks is a psychiatrist correct correct yes and in fact she went to medical school at Georgetown and she did her psychiatric training at Harvard Medical School correct I believe that's correct I don't recall 100 all right and she was a psychiatrist in Massachusetts that Amber Heard had reached out to yes after the Australia incident to try to help her relationship with Mr Depp correct I let me back up you attended Dr Banks deposition as well did you not yes I did and Dr Banks testified to that correct uh I don't remember if she testified to that I don't have the notes right in front of me or the deposition transcript all right do you recall Dr Banks testifying that she understood that Amber was in a relationship with Johnny Depp that had gotten violent and out of control I I don't recall specifically no do you recall Amy Banks testifying that they had physical altercations and his drug use had escalated and Amber felt she was at risk I don't recall do you recall Amy Banks testifying that Amber was reporting the Violence by Mr Depp and it was not consensual I recall Dr Banks stating that Ms heard was reporting violence to her yes I do not recall a statement about consent do you recall Dr Banks testifying that there was discussion about Mr Depp cutting off his finger and she said only that it was a middle of one of these very con kind of out of control escalated fights and that did make a fairly big impact on me I remember something like that all right and do you recall that Dr Banks saying it was a whole other level as I remember it told to me he actually cut off a part of his finger during one of these altercations meaning to me the way I digested that if you will was that things had gotten particularly out of control I do not recall that exact statement I'm not saying it didn't occur I just can't recall it all right and you recall that Mr Depp was in sessions with Ms heard with Dr Banks correct I yes my understanding however is that they met with Dr Banks and then it was primarily misheard meeting with Dr Banks for treatment after prescriptions and therapy all right and do you recall Dr Banks saying that she was not surprised that Amber was seeking a restraining order because of the violence that she knew existed in the relationship I do recall that and it would be impossible to know that violence exists as a treating therapist or as a psychologist again we're not investigators however I do recall that she said that because I remember having that thought and do you recall Amy and she's a psychiatrist right psychiatrist and do you recall Amy Banks saying that it was clear to her that Mr Depp was the one who initiated the violence I don't recall that all right do you recall that Dr Banks said that she knew for certain that Mr Depp was the one who who had committed the violence because Ms heard reported it in the presence of Mr Depp and he did not contradict I do not recall that okay and do you recall that Dr Banks ultimately concluded that it was her belief that Amber was a victim of domestic violence at the hands of Mr death there you want to approach this and what was your answer to that last one I'm sorry I uh think I can't recall but I also can't recall that last question do you recall that Dr Banks concluded that Amber was a victim of domestic violence at the hands of Mr death I don't recall that okay now you also reviewed the records of Laurel Anderson and you reviewed her deposition is that correct um Let me refresh my memory for a moment uh um I reviewed uh Dr Anderson's deposition yes okay and do you recall that she reported that that Amber Heard had had reported physical violence by Mr Depp to her I recall that she said that Ms hurt had reported that yes okay and do you recall that she said that it it changed over time I don't recall that specifically and do you recall Dr Anderson saying that she had witnessed her face being bruised after the December 15 2015 incident I don't recall that you don't recall that okay um and do you recall that Dr Anderson said that Amber had reported that uh he had pulled out her hair bruised her face kicked her leg and hit her in the head yes Miss heard did report that to her according to her testimony okay and do you read you recall that Amber Heard said that Mr Deb was scaring her I don't recall that specifically okay and do you recall that Dr Anderson said she believed that Amber Heard was a victim of domestic abuse at the hands of Mr doubt I recall uh no I don't recall that statement all right let's go to Bonnie Jacobs you said that you reviewed the notes from Bonnie Jacobs correct yes and what you testified to was that you discounted these because the first notes from Bonnie Jacobs indicated that she already had all of these symptoms correct just I'm sorry I don't understand what you're saying I discounted tell me why you discounted Bonnie Jacobs notes I did not discount Bonnie Jacobs notes you said that she the Bonnie Jacobs in her notes had already determined that these symptoms were present for Amber Heard before the relationship with Mr Depp did you not what I recall saying was that within Dr jacobs's notes she's documented instances in which Ms heard reported to her over the course of therapy that she was experiencing nightmares recurrent nightmares in fact about childhood abuse okay now the very first entry on Bonnie Jacob's notes and these are the notes right do you recognize these I do and we received more uh sort of at the tail end just a couple months ago all right so the first of Bonnie Jacobs notes is on 10 17 2011. do you recall that I I don't recall the exact date I don't have anything in front of me and she was already Amber Heard was already in the relationship with Johnny Depp at this point was she not I believe she was yes okay and in Bonnie Jacob's notes she documents however oh go ahead she documents multiple multiple occasions that Amber Heard reports to her physical violence upon her by Mr Depp does she not there are several notes that indicate that Ms hurt has reported Violence by Mr Depp yes many many correct I wouldn't qualify it as many many I'm not sure what you mean by money how many would you say I don't know I don't have the notes in front of me okay well what do you recall in deciding to make your opinions in this case well I'm confused about the dates because I know that Dr Jacobs treated Miss hurt even while she was in her prior relationship leaving her prior relationship with her last wife and Dr Curry I'm not going to ask you to try to bring in extraneous things I'm asking you what you recall of these but the dates would have been different based on that alone okay and I recalled that there was quite a bit of information because these were copious notes spanning back in time from her relationship with Tasha Dr Curry please answer my question how many occasions do you recall Dr I don't know Dr Jacobs documenting Amber reporting physical abuse I don't know foreign now you also said that you listened to audio tapes in this case correct yes did you hear Mr Depp admitting to head-butting misheard that is not what I heard you didn't hear that I heard a conversation about headbutting I did not hear him as you said admit to headbutting misheard okay that's your characterization of it correct yes okay um did you see the videotape of Mr Depp in the kitchen yes okay did Ms heard imagine that or create that or was she responsible for that somehow I'll sustain the objection next question okay um what if any impact did you have did that have on your opinions watching Mr Depp in that video I'm not sure it was one of many pieces of the exhibits and other collateral data that I considered I'm not sure what the direct impact was or if that could be measured all right now Council asked you whether you had conducted any type of examination on Mr Depp and I believe your answer was no correct no you did not review any medical records or psychological records from Mr Depp either did you I reviewed all of the records that were available do you recall reviewing medical and psychological records yes do you recall Dr Blaustein referring to Mr Depp having rage no I actually recall him referring to misheard in that note your testimony is that Dr Blaustein was referring to Amber Heard as having rage I transcribed several of the notes and I may be missing a time when he I said that about Mr Depp the handwriting was very difficult to transcribe but there was one instance in which I recall transcribing him stating that Mr Depp reported that Ms heard had rage Dr blaustian's deposition was taken was it not I don't recall do you recall so I'd take it then you don't recall him testifying that Mr Depp told him he had rage and demons I don't recall do you recall Dr blaustian testified that Mr Depp looked at his wife Amber like his mother or his sister that he didn't like I haven't seen his deposition I don't recall that okay now did you see and do you know whether Mr Depp has ever been diagnosed with any personality disorders my that's not relevant to my task to conduct an evaluation of misheard so I do not know that he has had one it was not in the records that he did all right so one way or the other you don't know whether Mr Depp suffers from any personality disorders there was that's not my task okay let me go to uh ipv perpetrators would you agree that accusations of infidelity can be considered one of the characteristics of a personality perpetrator of ipv it can be a characteristic of a lot of things it is something that can be weaponized if somebody is trying to or is having rage toward their partner let's go to page 270 line three my question was are accusations of infidelity considered one of the characteristics of a perpetrator or personality perpetrator of ipv the objection the question is is vague and ultimately ambiguous I I don't understand the objection all over all the objection and your answer can you remind me of the page I Thought page 270 line three was where my question was okay and your answer is at line eight you said it can be correct yes okay and interrogating your partner about unfounded accusations of infidelity can be abusive would you agree it can be if they're unfounded yes okay um and psychological consequences for a victim of ipv can include diminished self-esteem correct yes depressed mood yes anxiety yes fearfulness certainly diminished self-agency yes feeling powerless yes loss of sleep yes an ipv is a traumatic stressor would you agree it is all right and ipv is capable of resulting in PTSD is it not it is okay and ipv is capable resulting in other trauma-based disorders correct uh yes okay now Amber's medical examination she was cooperative correct her psychology yes she was cooperative and polite okay and and in the twofold days of examination you felt she was polite and answered all your questions except in one instance where she furrowed her brow when you were asking about friendships in high school correct that's not correct all right let's go to page 275. [Music] so we start on 274 with the was she polite you said yes what's your Cooperative yes did she answer your questions for the most part yes this is uh now we're on page 275 lines four and five and then my question was did she at any time become combat combative or unfriendly with you or angry and your answer was there was one instance in which she appeared annoyed and the posturing forward a bit more assertive tone furrowed brow when I was questioning something following up on data that had been inconsistent about friendships in high school other than that she was very polite is that your answer at that time that was my answer at that time and it's inconsistent with the question you had just asked me and would you agree that appearing for this examination with an expert who had been retained by Mr Depp more than a year earlier might be a little stressful yes okay and in fact not only had you been retained by Mr Depp but what had been communicated by Mr Depp's team was that you had called Amber Heard a liar and a perpetrator of abuse correct first of all I I'd like to clarify that I was not retained by Mr Depp I was retained by Mr Depp's Council and what I can say that yes any examinee in a forensic context you would consider that they're probably stressed all right would you agree that all perpetrators of ipv have anger management issues yes and a large portion of ipv perpetrators have substance abuse issues not uh it it's one of many factors that correlates with intimate partner violence but there are certainly many people who perpetuate intimate partner violence who do not have substance abuse issues let's go to 131 line 17 1 you said yes find 12 is what I have here and I'm talking about you said and just to give context remember I was asking you how many what percentage of uh people you treat that are perpetrators and you'd said five percent do you recall that just for substance I see that here okay and then I S then I said um of the five percent that are ipv perpetrators that you've treated over the last eight years how many of these perpetrators have substance abuse issues and your answer was I see that I answered with a figure of speech a large portion okay thank you and it's common for the perpetrator to essentially Gaslight the victim accuse them of being the perpetrator right are you in a different area or are you asking me I'm asking you a question oh um sorry can you please repeat it yes and it's common for the perpetrator to essentially Gaslight the victim accuse them of being the perpetrator would you agree that's exactly how I was asked on the deposition so I understand it is a compound question okay objection and it's common for the perpetrator to essentially Gaslight I don't think that's your honors I think it's just one question um let me try it to Gaslight the victim isn't it that's a characteristic of psychological abuse yes okay and and it's common then for them to accuse them of being the perpetrator the victim that's a characteristic of abuse from women perpetrated against men it's actually very very common about 90 percent of male victims of ipv have reported that a female partner who abuses them makes threats to report their partner as an abuser it's less common for men to make that statement to female Partners just because there's less potential consequence isn't it true though that some form of gaslighting is often present in these personality-based ipv scenarios yes okay and it's distressing for the victim to be accused is it not absolutely it causes them a lot of fear certainly and it causes them a lot of distress absolutely yes and in fact they feel falsely accused correct yes and they feel paranoid yes and they feel frightened yes afraid that everyone's going to believe the perpetrator correct yes and in fact they're afraid they're going to lose their security correct can you clarify what you mean by security I'll ask the next one and they're afraid they're going to lose their reputation correct okay now let's talk about the testing for a moment you [Music] talked about the mmpi2 but that's not the most recent mmpi is it no it's the most researched okay now you you need to have an elevated on the mmpi there was only one section that had elevated uh elevated scores correct no that's not correct it was the K section correct that's not correct okay and was there any elevated score over 65 on the mmpi I would need to take a look at it if you know I provided a 25-page interpretation outline if you're able to pull that up I'd be happy to go over any of the individual scores for you can you recall any clinical scales for the MMP pi2 for Amber Heard that were above 65 as you sit there today again there are multiple multiple scales on this test 25 Pages worth listed so if you can pull it up then I can review and give you a confident answer what can you recall as you sit there I I'm hesitant to do that because I don't want to make an error By ignoring hundreds of scale scores and would you agree that you can't make a pathological determination or diagnosis if the scales are not elevated on the mmpi too I would not agree with that okay now one of the answers that Amber gave is that it's hard for her to feel safe correct what are we are you talking about the mmpi too again I don't recall there are 567 items on that I would need to see her results well it's a common trauma symptom isn't it to not feel safe sure and safety concerns are common among women who have been victimized correct women and men yes okay and common especially for sexually victimized people would you agree any any type of victimization yes okay and hard to trust that's a common after effect of interpersonal violence related trauma correct sure and memory difficulties Amber said she felt she had holes do you recall that I do and her account was different than typical memory difficulties with trauma it is common for individuals who have experienced and it's actually not common no it's a symptom but it's the least common in fact a DSM-5 diagnosis for PTSD includes a quote inability to remember an important aspect of the traumatic event end of quote am I correct yes okay and memory difficulties are a symptom of PTSD correct certain types of memory difficulties yes okay now do you recall when Amber says the first incident of abuse took place I believe it was oh the first incident in which she yes so she stated that it was early on in their relationship do you recall it I don't recall the exact date off the top of my head do you recall it being a tattoo something related to a tattoo I do okay now if someone had been subjected to a four-year relationship characterized by repeated ipv they can have symptoms correct yes intense anxiety yes certainly depressed or irritable States actually this it's not so much states when you're looking at a real trauma reaction it's pretty uh persistent it's less of these transient States intimate problems yes relationship difficulties yes and these are symptoms you're also attributing to the personality disorder correct yes there are some key differences okay now let's talk for a moment specifically about a couple of the profiles on the mmpi this is not an exaggerated profile for her is it no actually that was something unique when she completed objective Broadband measures where the questions you don't know what the questions are getting at they seem completely random she raised scores that indicated that she was trying to minimize any mental issues and and appear completely free of pathology when she took tests that asked questions that were specific to trauma that's when you'd see these extreme exaggerations all right let's go to page 337. foreign [Applause] my question on line seven this is not an exaggerated profile is it for her and your answer under oath at that time was no it is not an exaggerated profile do you see that yes I'm talking about the mmpi here you testified under oath at that time correct yes that's correct now the profile is also not consistent with malingering correct the mmpi2 profile it's specific to how she approached this test and you're correct for this test it was a defensive profile not an exaggerated profile so my question on line 10 was this is not a profile consistent with malingering correct and your answer under oath at that time was correct on this test it is not consistent with malungri period right yes that was your full answer okay now is it your testimony under oath today that you have not been asked to testify concerning Ms heard's behavior in the context of her relationship with Mr Depp including any abuse that's correct okay and you have not made any determinations including any of opinions that Ms Ms heard abused Mr Depp or Mr Depp abused misheard correct correct that's outside of the scope of psychology okay and you cannot testify whether Amber Heard suffered any emotional distress as a result of any of the defamatory comments that she has alleged Mr Waldman made through Mr Mr Depp made through Mr Waldman correct what I can testify is that there was no indication of a decline in psychological functioning showing any injury since she's been with Mr Depp you you cannot testify one way or the other on that correct your honor may we approach okay [Music] Dr Curry yes in your report nowhere in your report would you provide any opinion of whether Ms heard suffered emotional distress as a result of the defamatory statements is that correct that's correct okay thank you I have no further questions all right redirect foreign you were just asked a question about malingering yes and made reference to the mmpi to is there another test that you did to make a determination with respect to malingering yes so I also well malingering is a term that most psychologists we try to be careful of it because it indicates an intent for secondary gain I prefer feigning which you had brought up earlier because it indicates that somebody is intentionally exaggerating but I don't know necessarily why so I think that's a more accurate term in General on the mmpi2 yes there was no exaggerated profile I also gave her though the Caps five I don't know if you'll remember but that is the clinician-administered PTSD scale consistent with the DSM-5 and on that there were signs of gross exaggeration I also looked at the test results that were provided by Dr Hughes and on an objective test of trauma there is a scales specific to intentional exaggeration on that test and Ms heard was in the 98th profile 98th percentile meaning that she is uh she indicate she had engaged in extreme levels of exaggeration thank you you were asked about intimacy problems relationship difficulties associated with ipv and and you then said that there were some key differences yes what are those so what you see when we're talking about the personality disorders is there is a very consistent pattern of the aggression the violence the irritability first of all it's escalated but second of all it occurs when there is either for the borderline component a threat of Abandonment a perceived slight feeling like the person is about to leave you about to walk away to get some space from an argument it's all it also occurs to a more mild extent but when there's a loss of attention and a need to manipulate to try to get that attention back but it's not when somebody has PTSD that irritability is sort of at a low constant level or it's completely random for instance you might have a Vietnam vet who went straight to bars for a period to get into fights with the hope that he would kill somebody and just self-destruct so it's a very different type of presentation ipv it might be more irritability but that's actually less of a symptom for female ipv victims usually what you'll see is somatic symptoms the depression a lot of fearfulness and anxiety but typically more complaints about somatic symptoms okay you testified that some of the professionals involved this case had to take their patient at her word what did you mean by that so when you're providing therapy you're in a very different role than an examiner when you're the forensic examiner you're just really looking at data to make a decision when you're a therapist you're an advocate for your clients well-being and in fact it's considered extremely unethical for a treating provider to ever provide opinion testimony like I'm providing because it's so well known in our field that you're going to have an automatic bias for your client it's almost a sense of protection advocacy wanting their best which is why we also know that it's very inappropriate to convey any sort of opinion about whether a crime occurred whether abuse occurred we can certainly believe our clients we can support them in their therapy and take them at their word but when giving opinions and consultations we have to be very very cautious and really only provide the the facts we would state things in terms of my client did report this I saw this here was our treatment plan here was the diagnosis it's a we just we're taught we're trained to stay away from making any sort of opinions understanding that most of the time and most of Ms herd's providers were just treating misheard they had never so much as done an initial value or initial interview with Mr Depp and gotten his whole life story or his symptoms or his side of any of it and they're going to be advocating and and the treatment relationship is about helping your client achieve well-being not making formal psychological or psychiatric opinions so you're asked a question about a series of doctors Dr Cohen treating physician yes he was a psychologist yeah Dr Banks training physician Dr Banks yes treating psychiatrist Dr Anderson yes uh treating psychologists every one of them had to take Amber where did Andrew heard his word right yeah excuse me I think overruled on that thank you no further questions all right is this witness subject that's right uh is this what it's subject to recall oh yeah all right since you're subject to recall Dr Curry please do not uh discuss your testimony with anybody and please do not watch uh anything of this card okay all right thank you thank you you can stay there for a moment okay all right ladies Jim we'll go ahead and take our afternoon recess for 15 minutes do not do any outside research and don't talk to anybody okay

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Keywords: court tv, court tv full trials, court tv live, court tv live stream, court tv trials, live court, johnny depp amber heard, johnny depp trial, amber heard, amber heard trial, johnny depp defamation suit, amber heard johnny depp, johnny depp, depp vs heard, dr curry johnny depp, dr curry testimony, dr curry amber heard, personality disorder, personality disorders psychology, dr shannon curry, shannon curry psychologist, shannon curry, elaine bredehoft, amber heard elaine

Id: Pbob1PDw4aM

Length: 68min 3sec (4083 seconds)

Published: Wed Dec 21 2022