Do Babies Go to Heaven? A Biblical Examination (The Mark Series pt 35, 10:13-16)

as you guys know I like to tackle tough difficult challenging confusing issues often times and dig deep for biblical clarity like survey all of Scripture trying to pull together different elements different verses that give us like something to hold on to and then to compile all those things we can hold on to into like a comprehensive teaching on an issue well the issue we're gonna tackle today to do that with is what is the fate of people who died as infants either infants very young children or people who are mentally handicapped so that is to say they're mentally they're the equivalent of an infant or a very young child can we say they go to heaven or hell or limbo as the Catholic the traditional Catholic theology would be nowadays limbo is in limbo whether it's a thing or not officially or is it some sort of reincarnation where they make a let a decision later on in some future life experience or are we just in the dark do we just throw our hands up in the air and say we just don't know we're just gonna trust the Lord and we move on with life well I think we can actually get some pretty strong answers and I'm gonna serve a scripture today but let me start by saying this if you've lost a child and you're listening to this I want to say I can't I can't imagine and I don't intend to drag you through the mud I'm not trying to pull your emotions around here I wouldn't want someone to do that to me if I were in your shoes I also want to ask for your grace towards me because I the scripture may not fall short but I will fall short and I'm not gonna even try to fix you or poof you're better now I don't think it works that way I don't think that's how things function in life especially with such terrible tragedies so I want to give you solid answers though what sometimes people do even pastors sometimes is they they try to minister to the heart when you're when you're at some point you're asking the question of the head what is in my in my head like as I analyze Scripture like what what what is the result of the analysis like someone give me that where they're not just trying to hold me with kid gloves but they're trying to help me process what is the teaching of scripture on this topic that's my goal today I think that that will bring you more benefit then then whatever poetry I could quote because I'm not so good at that anyway so we want and we need Scripture and many people say the bible is unclear on this topic but i think it gives us so much to go on that we can at least rule out that well let me put it this way I think these babies are in heaven and I think I can build a strong biblical case that you will be with them again if you are in Christ making your salvation your primary concern when it comes to seeing them again so what happens to people who died as infants or who died with severe mental impairments at least some severe mental impairments a lot of people will answer this question by saying hey God is good God's gonna do the right thing God's gonna do the best thing that's what's gonna happen and I trust him I trust God's character and I want to say this that is a good starting point and a good ending point and if we have nothing to go on that should be a good enough answer for us whether we like it or not whether we get upset hearing that kind of answer is a second issue that has to do with our hearts God's goodness is a perfectly good answer for the unknowns of my life and the tragedies of my heart in my life and the things I go through that is a good and fully sufficient thing to land on but in addition to that I do think the bible does give us a lot more to go on but because these verses that that are used are sometimes used like wrongly I'm actually gonna start this survey this could be a longer teaching video I admit ahead of time I'm gonna start the survey of Scripture with five passages that I think we should not use to say that babies are in heaven I think these five passages don't work that way and I've heard them used I've read a couple books on this topic and in the past week you know I've been studying a lot on the issue I've been giving a lot of thought over the years as well but I think these passages don't work and even prominent pastors I've heard use them people whose names you would know and so here we go we're gonna start with that what verses we don't want to use to answer this question then I'm gonna survey a bunch of passages we will use to answer this question I'll give you the conclusions at the end and then I'm gonna leave you hanging with a bunch of other questions cuz babies in heaven then leads to a bunch of other questions and I'm gonna answer those next week questions about freewill questions about sin nature those types of issues I'm gonna deal with that next week all right so first corinthians chapter 7 verse 14 this is our first verse we're gonna dig into today never mind that I'm in Psalm 79 okay hold on first Corinthians 7:14 this is one verse that's used I'll read it to you and then I'll make the case as if I'm using this verse and I won't use it I'm gonna say that we shouldn't use it for this purpose but the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband for otherwise your children are unclean but now they are holy and so this is taken as a statement that hey the kids of believers if you're a Christian then your kids are holy and that means that they are saved so by virtue of having at least one Christian parent then you've got saved children that's that's pretty much the whole case right there now I'm gonna read this this passage in context to show you that that I don't think at all that you I don't think it even could mean that and I think it like provably doesn't mean that so we're gonna dig into it also I think that it's problematic because if you're gonna say only Christian kids kids if Christian parents are saved what are you saying about everybody else so 1st Corinthians 7 12 says but to the rest I say not I not the I let me start over but to the rest I say not the Lord that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever and she consents to live with him he must not divorce her and a woman who has an unbelieving husband and he consents to live with her she must not send her husband away so here and by the way I'm using the NASB for today's study the whole Mark series I'm using the NASB for consistency as far as Bible translation but here at verse 12 and 13 establishes this this is about husbands and wives who were unequally yoked a husband who was married to a non-christian wife or vice-versa Christian woman married to a non-christian ma'am and he's like hey stay together stay together and then he offers benefits of staying together in verse 14 at 13 or 14 a woman who has an unbelieving husband RC me verse 14 and through 16 for the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband for otherwise your children are unclean but now they are holy now here's what the first thing you need to know is the word sanctified here and sanctified here and holy here is all from the same Greek word ha Geass which means holy so what what we're saying about the children Paul is also saying about the husband whatever he means by sanctifying the husband he means something very similar about the children so if you're gonna say that the children are therefore saved because they're called holy in this passage and sometimes holy refers to people that are saved but not always if you're gonna say they're saved because they're called Hagios you know one of the terms that uses ha Geass as its root then you have to say then the husband is also saved because it's the same in the Greek it's the same root but in verse 16 that's refuted for how do you know a wife whether you will save your husband or how do you know a husband whether you will save your wife so according to Paul the salvation of the spouse is actually in question right they're not a believer yet they might become a believer so whatever sanctification is happening it doesn't equal salvation that's the point that I need to make here so the same word is used for husband's being sanctified as children being holy same same word and there's another issue there which is if this was about salvation let's pretend that all that that wasn't the case for 16 didn't exist and we were like theorizing this was about salvation it would mean that the husband saved and the kids are saved as long as they're married to a Christian woman or a Christian man you're you're saved this causes a lot of problems right but in addition to the Hat it wouldn't mean that you're saved when you have a Christian parent because the context in 1st Corinthians 7 is Paul telling Christians not to divorce their unbelieving spouses and these the consequence of a divorce is your children are unclean you get a divorce or your kids are unclean well if you're saying that holy means they're saved then you're saying that a Christian parent divorces their non-christian spouse kids are now going to hell right this is not what he's talking about Paul is not talking about this issue at all he's like saying look Christians have a have a like salt and light impact on their families a wife impacts her husband when she's a believer and she impacts her kids and it has a sanctifying effect upon them and so does just a marriage being together it has a sanctifying effect on the family and divorce causes harm causes her to the kids causes a lack of relationship and connection less salt and light into their lives and that's all he's saying there that's that's all that we're getting out of this passage yeah so it's about the positive impact of a believer on their family it's not about salvation of kids it's not related to that all right the next passage is Jeremiah 1:5 another passage I'm not gonna use to support my views here Jeremiah chapter one verse five says before it formed you in the womb God speaking to Jeremiah I knew you and before you were born I consecrated you I've appointed you a prophet to the nation's now some say you know Jeremiah here is it's been it's being shown that he's saved Jeremiah is saved and he saved in the womb now I don't know this this would give us something right because if he is saved then it's like hey at least you can be saved in the womb it's possible but the problem is that this is like a rare exception right this is special Jeremiah you're not like everybody else I consecrated you to be a prophet to the nation's so Jeremiah is like I like he's seemed like an exception like a rare thing that God consecrates him for these exact purposes so it's a double-edged sword if you're saying this shows that Jeremiah was saved and this is the basis on which infants are saved then it's also you're saying only some special people are consecrated and saved from the womb and I'm concerned with that view I don't think it's consistent with other scriptures that actually teach on this but also this verse just isn't about salvation I don't believe God consecrated him right he appointed him so so Jeremiah was was set aside and destined predestined by God for this ministry of being a prophet to the nation's and this is to encourage him right Jeremiah you're not just some random selection man I chose you for this I chose you for this be encouraged have courage that Jeremiah one God's encouraging him to have courage because he's scared he's scared of stepping into this ministry that'll be hostile and it would be hostile Jeremiah had a rough ministry so I don't think that this verse gives us anything in relation to the salvation of infant's another passage is first Kings chapter 14 and put up verse seven here so this is about Jeroboam Jeroboam is one of the kings of Israel and it said that all of his kids are gonna be killed his kids being his descendents not his not his babies that's not well I don't think we should get that out of this passage but his descendants that would be in hey he's a king right he would they would be inheriting his kingship but God's cutting off his line and his descendants when they die they're all gonna fail to be buried because basically they're all wicked so they won't be buried now this is kind of like casting a shadow on their salvation their actual salvation seems to be in question because the symbol of you won't get buried is the what's implied as you won't be resurrected in the in the good resurrection so there's one exception Jeremiah's son God says of Jeremiah's son hey there's something good in you there's something good that God is found in the his son and so some say well this means that his son was saved and it's because his son was an infant that he was saved so let's that's the background of the passage we're gonna go ahead and read it now just preface before verse 7 before we get to this verse Jeremiah finds out that his child his son is sick and he sends his wife to the prophet in disguise to ask what will happen to my son and so here's what happens the prophet responds says go say to Jeroboam thus says the Lord God of Israel because I exalted you from among the people and made you leader over my people Israel and and toward the kingdom away from the house of David and gave it to you yet you have not been like my servant David who kept my Commandments and who followed me with all his heart to do only that which is right in my sight you also have done more evil than all who were before you and have gone and made for yourself other gods and molten images to provoke me to anger and have cast me behind your back therefore first 10 behold I am bringing calamity on the house of Jeroboam and will cut off from Jeroboam every male person all the potential future Kings from his line both bond and free in Israel and I will make a clean sweep of the house of Jeroboam as one sweeps away dung until it is all gone so God it's Jeroboam is disgusting to God it's like getting sweeping poop away you want to get it out of there verse 11 anyone belonging to Jeroboam who dies in the city the dogs will eat so they won't be buried get that that's a really big deal to them and he who dies in the field the birds of the heavens will eat for the lord has spoken so they're cut off they're cut off this may again reply imply loss of ultimate final salvation that may be implied here it's not super clear but it seems likely but there's an exception now you arise go to your house and win your feet enter the city the child will die but there's an exceptional the kid's gonna die the kid that's already sick the child's going to die it doesn't say that this is part of judgment or not you might think it is it's contextually perhaps but verse 13 his death is different all Israel shall mourn him and bury him for he alone of jeroboams family will come to the grave and here's the key because in him something good was found toward the Lord God of Israel in the house of Jeroboam okay so there's the verse and it's like look jeroboams whole family's wicked but this this child is infant there's something good in infants and so even when there's wickedness in the family or wickedness of mankind like God receives the child and his burial implies his future resurrection if if we can follow that implication through and I think there is some consistency there here's where it falls apart in my opinion while I do think it implies salvation but the passage doesn't give us any indication about how old this kid is that's where we're making assumptions and I like this but I'm like ooh there's a cool passage I'd like to be able to use this but there's nothing here to say that he wasn't a fifteen-year-old there's no reason to think he wasn't the only indication of the age of the boy is the terms used in Hebrew to describe him now are which could be boy lad or youth and it can be used of infants up to seventeen year olds like right you could use it for this whole range and it is used for that whole range yell ed is the other term in the hero and it's often used of very young children it is often but it's also used of young men as well young young men right men who could produce babies of their own they're that old and so we just don't have enough data to like say this is about an infant and so I have to set this passage aside as like indeterminate you might say but yeah it doesn't seem to work there's also a Jewish tradition and it is a tradition is it accurate I have no idea and the Jewish tradition says that that this child of Jeroboam Abijah he actually was helping people against his father's wishes he was helping people in doing godly deeds in the Land of Israel and in Jerusalem and that's why God honored him and so at least in Jewish tradition they think of him as an older son all right let's do another passage and this one is about where Jesus says children have angels or at least that's how it's interpreted so the logic goes like this children have angels and angels are specifically assigned to the saved so the implication is kids are saved so here we are Matthew 18 10 it says see that you do not despise one of these little ones for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of my father who is in heaven and by the way side note I should have mentioned this earlier this is the mark series part 35 I've got like links to the to the whole playlist for the mark series you're like Mike you haven't even a mark yet this is true but in the mark series I do these theological detours occasionally where we hit a passage in this case mark chapter 10 verse like 13 through 16 is where we're at today and as I read this passage and it brings up Jesus receiving children this is one of those texts that weighs in on the question of infant salvation so I decided to tackle the topic of infant salvation and produce this topical video that will be sandwiched in the middle of our mark series so here we go Jesus says do not despise one of these little ones for I say to you there angels in heaven continually see the face of my father who is in heaven now the way you use this first you couple Matthew 18 10 with Hebrews chapter 1 verse 14 which says that angels are ministering spirits sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation so if the purpose of angels is to minister to those who will be saved then babies having their own angels means that babies will be saved I mean that logic works the logic works I don't know how ironclad it is but at least at least there's a reason given there here's where I think this doesn't work though when you go back to Matthew 18 and you looked at it in context right I want to say babies go to heaven just like you'd probably do too but I want to have biblical reasons for it right and here in context it's not what this passage is talking about Matthew 18 verse 2 it says he called a child to himself and set him before them Jesus and uses this kid as an illustration says truly I say to you unless you are converted and become like children you will not enter the kingdom of heaven whoever then humbles himself as this child he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven and whoever receives one such child in my name receives me and here's a question when Jesus is talking about children here in verse 5 doesn't mean little literal children or does he mean people who humbled themselves like children well I think he makes it even more clear as we go on so let's read but whoever causes one of these little ones those would be the children right and he qualifies it who believe in me whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble it would be better for him to have a mill heavy millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea he gets the millstone award you messed with the little ones except the little ones in verse six are Christians who believed in him they're believed they're not infants in other words they can't be infants because they have a present state of belief in Jesus so they're believers adults or those who are of age who believe in Jesus they're like children there is little ones so then when you get down to verse 10 Matthew 18 10 Jesus is saying don't despise one of these little ones these are saved believers in Matthew 18 10 the illustration of a child yes but the application of saved Christians so I can't use this one and I don't think that that that one works this text does give us something though we're not like without any sort of help moving forward with the text because by using children as an example of how we must come to Jesus for salvation it at least adds favor to the idea that children are welcomed into God's presence at death why well why would you use people who are rejected by God as your example of people that will be received by God right that does seem strange so at least there's something there and I think our last passage is Ezekiel 16 20 and through 22 and this was a popular passage I I got excited when I heard about someone say that I was like where's that in the Bible and as I went to double-check the context which you should always do I went I don't think that's saying what they think it's saying well it goes like this God says moreover you took your sons and daughters whom you'd born to me and sacrifice them to idols to be devoured or your harlotries so small a matter you slaughtered my children and offer them up to idols causing them to pass through the fire so God calls these children and here's how I've heard it said in a couple different sources I mean children of pagans God calls them my children they're my children and so God Clay's claim over all children everywhere around the world and I think there's a problem with this there are other reasons why God calls them my children that may not have to do with their salvation I think they're saved I think I'm gonna build a case for that I just don't think this verse gives us that so in Ezekiel 16 if you read the whole chapter you and check out the whole chapter yourself look I highlighted something what was that that was for a different issue if you look at Ezekiel 16 the whole chapter you're gonna see that it's about God's relationship with Jerusalem as though Jerusalem's his girl Jerusalem his his woman is his bride and he raises her up out of the dirt out of the filth out of her blood and he draws her to himself and then what does she do now this is an allegory of Jerusalem the people right what does she do she takes the kids that according to Ezekiel 1620 that she bought to him the sons and daughters whom you born to me well in the analogy was Eagle 16 God is the husband they're the bride and so the kids belong to him too and he says you sacrificed them they were my children and so that the my children is specifically this is important to hope you follow with me on this the my children claim is about them being in the Covenant or in the relationship with God that Israel had with God now I have two problems with this one if that's the case then it would only mean salvation for kids when there of Israel and Romans makes it very clear that this is not the case right because it's children of promise right that are that are counted as the true children but also God has plenty of salvation accessible and available to all people he doesn't work through Israel but this my children thing isn't about salvation and the other issue with it is that there's specific examples of children of Israel who were not saved so even in Romans as well of those who were of the children of Israel they're still called the children the descendants of Israel but they're not actually saved so yeah the case for is yeah god calls in my children and their children ultimately of pagans because they're not really pay I mean they're pagan in practice but they're actually descendants of Israel so it's a little bit muddy but there's other reasons why God calls them children also there's other reasons in scripture where God has a special claim on to the kids of the descendents of Israel so in Exodus 22 29 in Exodus chapter 13 verses 1 & 2 God claims the firstborn sons of Israel as they belong to him personally and his house to do with Passover and all those other issues so it's hard to say that's a claim that applies to every kid everywhere seems unique to Israel in in Scripture when God calls the children to be Abraham my people it never means that they're saved right so we we shouldn't take this my children thing and say therefore they're saved because of that there's other reasons but not that one so the passage doesn't show that children who die are saved it does give us something else though it does show us that God has special concern for children even when their parents are disgustingly horribly wicked that's important because one view I'll I will absolutely fight against is the idea that if your parents are godly you're gonna be saved and if your parents are ungodly you're gonna be damned I think there's lots of scripture to refute that here's one of those verses that pushes against that view alright now we're gonna build our theology those are our five passages that we're not gonna use to support our doctrine or at least I'm the thing I'm trying to convince you of here my understanding we're gonna build our theology but we're gonna back up we're not gonna start from verses that talk about specific individual kids we're gonna talk about scriptures that talk about the state of children in general and my children I don't mean of all ages kids that are very young that fall into this category that you're about to see so the first point I want to make is this and it's answering this question our kids responsible for any sin whatsoever does God hold them responsible for sin not do you want him to or should he or shouldn't he what does the Bible actually say about this issue so we know that he holds us responsible for the sins we commit but I'm gonna suggest it's totally different with children God refers to children as innocents yeah but he doesn't just mean innocent of certain crimes they're innocent in a unique fashion in a unique way so the biblical teaching is that children are in a unique state and hear this word carefully of moral in capability or moral incapacity and that that changes how God deals with them when it comes to judgment so here we go we're gonna look at Deuteronomy chapter 1 verse 31 Deuteronomy 131 it says and in the wilderness oh by the way I'll back up and tell you so in this passage God is dealing with the children of Israel that they're walking up to the edge of the promised land there's like those giants in the land we don't want to go in you brought out here you brought us here to kill us God you want to get our kids killed and so God's gonna have that whole generation die and he's gonna bring the next generation into the land forty years later if you're familiar with the story so Deuteronomy 131 judging the older generation look what he says about the younger generation he says and in the wilderness where you saw how the Lord your God carried you just as a man carries his son and all the way which you have walked until you came to this place that is not the reverse but it's still a good verse I wanted verse 39 all right moreover your little ones who you said would become prey and your sons who this day have no knowledge of good or evil shall enter there they'll enter the land and I will give it to them and they shall possess it look at what God says not as a statement about one Oh what's going on like camera connection that's not ever happened before alright I think it was just the connection I just have to not breathe okay just hope it'll be okay you still hear me there okay I'm good all right look at what God says now this is supremely profound he describes not one kid not one individual like Jeremiah or somebody like that but rather it's a blanket statement about the nature of kids they have no knowledge of good or evil consider this in light of the fact that the same author who wrote Genesis wrote this down and in Genesis it says that Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and yet here's children they have no knowledge of good and evil now I'm gonna argue they still have a sin nature but they don't have a knowledge of good and evil and it changes God's posture and judgment toward them this is really significant they're not morally perfect they're morally unaware they're morally unaccountable you see they're different than adults or people who are passed some point of accountability who have now knowledge of good and evil there you're past that point that's a different scenario than the kids who are before that point this is so much of the theology is gonna hang on that understanding this point so let me support that with another scripture that shows that this is just the normal way of thinking about kids it's not a one specific kid it's just the way kids are and the Bible knows it and you know it too right you know infants don't understand three-month-old baby doesn't understand the moral dilemma of Corrie ten Boom whether she lies to the Nazis about the Jews hiding in her place or not no knowledge of good and evil they don't even know language so Isaiah 7:14 therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign behold a virgin will be with child and bear his son and she will call his name Immanuel he will eat curds and honey at the time he knows enough to refuse evil and choose good for before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken so Isaiah 7 here is it's it's I consider this like a double prophecy when you couple it with Isaiah 8 and 9 but it's talking about ultimately about the Messiah but it's also referring to Isaiah's kid and Isaiah's kid look at what it said now with you agree with me that on that or not it's irrelevant but verse 16 it's just assumed that everybody understands that there's this stage of life where Isaiah's boy doesn't even know it to refuse evil and choose good there's no awareness that's there there's no culpability then because there is no capability that's the point there is a temporary state that every human being goes through where they just don't know right from wrong like legitimately don't know I'm not talking about a psychopath who is has awareness of right and wrong but doesn't doesn't care doesn't feel a conviction about it or something like that at least that's my understanding of it I'm not talking about us a hardened conscience who is who was at one time aware of right and wrong but through repeated sin is NOLA is now clueless like they're actually drawn into sin without real awareness like they've entered into darkness as judgment on them no no we're talking about kids that just aren't morally aware yet they're not sinless they're just like not pure perfect and holy like everything they do is right there just like there just isn't really a moral rightness and wrongness to their actions because they're not morally aware how does this play out then let's take these Brits principle about kids all kids are like this how does it play out in judgment so we can see how God deals with kids or once to do with kids what his posture is his hardest towards kids who are in this place of not knowing right from wrong well in the story of Jonah in the Book of Jonah when he goes to nineveh jonah once Nineveh to be destroyed he's a prophet who's preaching to them but he wants them to be destroyed he wants to God's wrath upon them God wants to rescue them so he warns them first give him an opportunity to repent at the end of the book God is trying to reason with Jonah about why he should also want Nineveh to be saved and he gives him two reasons both which are not really culturally that significant back at the time but biblically in our Christian worldview they're very significant there's kind of out of nowhere for God to do these two things especially the second one but he says should I not have compassion on Nineveh that great city in which there are more than 120 thousand persons who do not know the difference between a right and left hand so the first thing he says is who is Jonah they deserve judgment but I want to have mercy on them even just for the sake of the children because the children are perfect and holy no he doesn't say their holy he says they don't know they don't know the difference in right and wrong this is huge now I'll mention the second one just for those of you who as well as many animals God cares about animals He healed he'll judge there'll be collateral damage in judgment yes but he doesn't want to do that he wants to give me an opportunity to repent and this also means kids are what if if kids suffer in God's judgement they're collateral damage they're not the targets they're the collateral damage of the sin and the consequences of the sin of man that's a pretty big deal we should understand this it should seem obvious I just like having a scripture that also supports this as well so if they shouldn't be killed in Nineveh these kids why not if God doesn't want them to die what's what's the reasoning here well it's it's not because they're holy rights because they're ignorant they're just not accountable for anything yet and so God wants to not have that fall upon them it's not a good thing to do it's not something he desires and if it was just all kids it wouldn't happen it's a result of collateral damage of judgment community judgment that God brings so God's judgment on adults impacts children and we see this all the time but the judgment itself is not on the kids that's a consistent thing I think we should see in Scripture I think we should see that and if we see kids as welcomed into God's presence upon their death then we see that what God did was he delivered them into his own glorious presence even though they went through a short period of suffering as part of the consequences of somebody else's sin and that's how I would couch and understand the flood or God's larger judgments on say the land of Canaan or something like that even though people overstate what those were here's another note another note we get from Nineveh wicked evil unsaved parents who literally deserve to die for their sins like early judgment not even God waiting for them to die to judgment but like he's gonna smash Nineveh those kinds of parents God still wants to have compassion on their kids the parents were guilty and deserving of judgment the kids were not guilty of it and they did not deserve this judgment that's pretty significant notice this - if I can back up now to the to the Deuteronomy one passage because this is similar in Deuteronomy one right and Deuteronomy 139 we read that that God speaks of the kids as having no knowledge of good and evil but look what he says about the parents these same parents he says not one of this evil generation shall see the good land which I swore to give your father's so the parents are terribly wicked the kids God sees them totally differently they're in a different category when it comes to judgment they have no knowledge of good and evil they have no awareness of right and wrong now there's another passage that supports this as well so I'm here saying you shouldn't say the kids go wherever the parents would go that that's not right is he he'll 18:20 then teach them this hold on oh I went to Exodus I'm like what that's not what's supposed to say there we go Ezekiel 18:20 it says the person who sins will die the son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity nor will the father bear the punishment for the sons iniquity the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself and so each one's accountable for their own issues now this starts to make it hard to say that kids are getting judged right because they have no accountability for their parents issues and they have no awareness moral awareness so they just judgement doesn't seem to apply to them and I'm gonna argue that even more strongly in a minute let's though take this because some people would say Mike there's a there's a contrary verse there's a verse that contradicts what you're saying here Mike that kids don't suffer punishment for their parents sins I would actually argue they don't but here's the verse that someone would use to argue against me I think Exodus 20 verse 5 you shall not worship them or serve them for I the Lord your God am a jealous God visiting the iniquity of the father's on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me now some people say well it's only of those who hate me so the iniquity of the father will only be upon them if you continue hating God in those subsequent generations that may be the case but there's another scripture that seems to say the same thing without that caveat of of those who hate me I will say this though that visiting the iniquity of the father's on the children is not the same as punishing the children for the sins of the father there's a difference again they're kids here are collateral damage they did they're they're hurt suffering as a result of the parents sins but aren't being punished and certainly not eternally for sins they committed let me give you an example let's say that a dad he has three kids he's got a wife and he goes out in Rob's banks and he and he hugs people and does all sorts of sinful things and he gets caught and the government punishes him by putting him into prison and by putting a lien on his house and funneling all of his money to the people that he had stolen from the kids will suffer greatly but nobody thinks they're actually being punished but the iniquity of the father is now visited upon them so this warning is to parents that their sins will hurt their kids that would be how I understand it and then the point here of course is that God shows loving-kindness to thousands that his loving-kindness is that much greater and now much more overwhelming than even judgment and punishment and suffering and so yeah that's how I would respond to that so we've got two things so far two things so far and the two things are this one children are in a unique state of not knowing right from wrong not having the knowledge of good and evil which is the very thing that Adam and Eve certainly had after they ate of the tree they don't have it yet they will develop it naturally over time so they don't have the knowledge of good and evil and then too this means that are not yet personally accountable because of that lack of knowledge they're not accountable if they grow older they will all sin eventually and then they then they are accountable so this is this is a stage of accountability I won't use the term age typically because the age would be different for every person since the it's based on knowledge not on age right it's based on awareness not on how long you've been outside the womb and so it would be different for each person people develop at different rates anybody with different multiple kids knows this people mature at different rates like I was like super slow you know and and so you know that's just what happens in life where we mature different rates some people might have a mental impairment that actually has them effectively like a little child and the Lord knows exactly how much they know and he will only hold them accountable if they in fact can rightly be held accountable so let's build on this though I think there's more that I can say so I so perhaps stage of accountability or time entering into a ay-ay-ay state of accountability might be the better way of understanding it although age of accountability no one will ever stop saying it because we've all been saying it for so long so we're gonna build on this we're gonna we're gonna go further with our theology here we're gonna look we've looked now at the nature of kids they don't know right from wrong and how God when he's judging even communities of people he doesn't put that on the kids that's pretty significant right because I we're now going to apply it to salvation now we're gonna build on this by looking at how people are condemned by God eternally how eternal damnation happens in the Bible and I want to show you that this just cannot apply to kids I'm gonna say whatever your answer for kids is it can't be hell it just doesn't work I think that we can say this very strongly in Scripture so here we go not yet are youing that babies go to heaven I though I will argue that right now I'm just saying you can't put them in hell that's my answer so Augustine was wrong all right because the conditions the conditions the things that cause people to go to hell the reasons people go to hell they just cannot apply to kids and you maybe you're probably already ahead of me but but it's still important that we build the case so let me give it to you although many of you are probably already there so in Romans 1 through 3 what we have is like a indictment against humanity humanity is told of their like universal condemnation before God that we're all we all sinned and fall short but if you read Romans 1 through 3 you'll notice that everything it says just doesn't apply to babies it doesn't apply to babies it gets silly when you try to apply it to babies right our babies idolaters is this a sin that babies have committed I mean as Romans 1 rips into idolatry well in verses 18 through 21 we get this the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness well I mean try to read that applying it to a baby right our baby suppressing the truth I mean they're just unaware of anything because that which is known about God is evident within them for God has made it evident to them so there's knowledge right one of the reasons the wrath of God falls is knowledge what is it the babies don't have knowledge right knowledge of good and evil they just aren't aware of it verse 20 condemnation on all men who are accountable for since the creation of the world his invisible attributes his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen being understood through what has been made so that they are without excuse we're without excuse because we observe and see that God is real just by looking around the creation screams out that there was a God but if you're telling me a baby that is at six months the gestation is supposed to be seeing the clouds and stars and sky and creation and be dwelling upon their own consciousness and be like yes there's definitely got to be a unmoved mover you know like if this is what they're supposed to do then yeah this it you see this just doesn't apply we go on it says for even though they knew God but we kids don't know anything don't know the right hand from their left let alone God according to the Old Testament they did not honor him as God or give thanks I mean it's not like babies are gonna be accountable for not giving thanks they can't speak I can't give anything but they became futile in their speculations and their foolish heart was darkened professing to be wise they became fools I never heard a baby profess to be wise they exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image of in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures do you see that this is obviously about those who are past that age of accountability or stage of accountability it has to be this is the nature of the condemnation when we get to verse 32 it continues the condemnation that goes on man says and although they knew the ordinance of God that those who practice such things are worthy of death what is it the babies don't know the knowledge of good and evil what is the condemnation that man knows right from wrong and what does the man do he does what's wrong and he gives hearty approval to others who do what's wrong so the three things the baby aren't doing baby doesn't know right from wrong baby isn't doing right and wrong and baby's not rental you know approving of people doing right and wrong it the babies not like a good job punch him again like this you yeah infants certainly aren't doing this certainly aren't doing this yeah they have no knowledge of good or evil Deuteronomy 1 that's the verse that I would want to point you for okay so Jesus also he emphasizes this idea that that lack of knowledge gives excuse or less judgment in the case of babies no knowledge no judgment I think John 15 22 if I had not come to and spoken to them they would have know or would not have sinned I think I'm reading King James New King James in my head here they would not have sinned but now they have no excuse for their sin so Jesus is saying of the people you know before you met me the Messiah before you encountered me you wouldn't have been accountable for rejecting me but you've encountered me you've rejected me now your sin is worse now they already had other sins it's not like they'd have no sin at all they just wouldn't have the sin of deliberately openly rejecting the Messiah when he showed himself to them with miracles which is pretty serious sin also so babies obviously they're I Jesus wasn't speaking to a crowd thinking and you're infants to write like this they're just not considered as part of the group in Romans chapter 2 we have more information about how men are judged and this just doesn't apply to babies romans 2 verses 1 & 2 therefore you have no excuse every one of you who passes judgment do babies pass judgment not know a two-month-old not passing judgment just passing gas a lot but not judgment for in that which you judge another you condemn yourself for you who judged practiced the same things and we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice the same things so you know right from wrong you do wrong judgment is upon you and rightly so but if that's what makes right judgment then what could possibly justify judgment when you don't know right from wrong and you don't do anything right or wrong it doesn't make sense and I don't think you were I don't think we're supposed to apply these things to infants because they don't apply now let's look at revelation 20 revelation 20 so I'm so okay let me just back us up I show that they don't have knowledge of good or evil that God wants to pass over them that the judgment of the parents doesn't apply to the kids not in a punishment sense that would require hell I also showed them from the New Testament that the grounds the Bible gives for why men are judged don't apply to babies and now I want to show you in Revelation 20 in the actual Judgment Day in the throne of judgment where men are brought in and to hell the second death this description of how the judgment works it clearly is not involving babies so Revelation chapter 20 verse 12 through 15 so here's here's the account of this future judgment and I saw the dead the great and the small standing before the throne and great and small doesn't mean Oh big giant people in infants rights talking about important people and lowly people standing before the throne and books were opened and another book was opened which is the book of life and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books according to their deeds what are they judged by their deeds according to their deeds babies don't have deeds and the sea gave up the Dead which were in it and the death and death and Hades gave up the Dead which were in them and they were judged every one of them according to their deeds we get that again then first 14 death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire this is the second death the lake of fire and if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life he was thrown into the lake of fire so we see that God's judging people for their works and their deeds this is the very their knowledge and their sins these are the two things that kids little babies certainly don't have what am I saying my big conclusion that I think everyone who believes the Bible should agree with me here babies aren't going to hell whatever you want to do with them they're not going to hell because all of the reasons one goes to hell that are given in Scripture as the this is the cause this is how the judgment takes place it just doesn't apply to them and to suggest that their parents or that someone else's sin is retroactive Lee put upon them I don't think that that works either for those same verses that I brought now some would suggest limbo or some other location for babies I'm gonna try to give you guys a argument for why they should be going to heaven not just not going to hell but actually going to heaven so this is now adding on to our sort of wealth of knowledge we have we have a lot of good good things to see look at God's heart towards an enemy wants to bring them into the land these are all like implications that would be consistent with heaven but I think we have even more so let's go to the passage that everyone's been thinking about since you clicked on this video second Samuel Chapter twelve verse 19 second samuel 12 19 this is about David here's the background short summary because you'd probably know the story David commits adultery with Bathsheba she gets pregnant he kills her husband to cover up the adultery but it doesn't really cover it up and he you know everybody knows and he takes her back into his house and now it's just this horrible thing that this king chosen by God has done and ultimately blaspheme the name of God in front of everybody and he's supposed to be king David you know what I mean he's the guy and he does this thing and so the child gets sick and God's judgment on David not the baby is that the baby is going to die this is a collateral damage type scenario in my opinion so David and Bathsheba that scenario the child's gonna die and David is fasting he's fasting and fasting and fasting in fact he's fasting so much that when the baby dies they're scared to tell him his servants know the baby's dead and they're like how can we tell him that the child's dead since he might do something to himself he might hurt himself he might do himself harm David might kill himself like in other words David really cares about this son this is not like something he doesn't care he's deeply he's a deeply emotional guy we know from reading it's the Psalms and reading even 1st or 2nd Samuel in particular we we see that his heart but look what happens when the child dies when David saw that his servants were whispering together David perceived that the child was dead so David said to his servants is the child dead and they said he is dead notice this the repetition dead right the over and over again the service today were afraid to tell him that the child was dead and then we get this how can we tell him that the child is dead repeated again and then we get it like what three times the next verse in verse 19 David saw the duh he perceived that the child was dead and he says is the child dead and they said he is dead why is it being repeated over and over again the repetition especially in Hebrew writing is tough word I think it's trying to get your heart to sink with David's the sorrow the sadness the heaviness of it the child is dead I think God knows how much this hurts people and he wants us to feel some of that so then we'll see the oddness of what David does and we can learn from it so David arose from the ground and washed anointed himself and changed his clothes and he came into the house of the lord and worshiped david goes and he worships god like just imagine being a parent who's just lost your kid you were fasting and praying in his case he knows it's because of his sin right at least he has an explanation for it even though most times parents probably don't have any explanation but he goes into the house of God and he worships God and then they're just like puzzled like what on earth is going on so they then he came to his own house and when he requested they set food before him and he eat so he's not mourning apparently he's not fasting he's worshiping and he's eating what's going on the servants trip out then his servant said to him what is this thing that you've done while the child was alive you fasted and wept but when the child died you arose and ate food he said while the child was still alive I fasted and I wept for I said who knows the Lord may be gracious to me that the child may live but now he has died why should I fast can I bring him back again there's a word to some people who are trying to resurrect babies right now can I bring him back again I will go to him but he will not return to me and these little words right here I will go to him that is the big explanation why does David stop fasting why is he now worshiping God why is he now eating I think the explanation is he believes he will see his baby again he believes he will see his baby again David fasted and wept for the child his servants feared he might hurt himself he was so despondent the point here is David looks forward to a day when he will be with his son again if that's not a case for the salvation of infants in general I don't know how else to interpret it and I mean that legitimately like other interpretations I've heard and I'm gonna I'll tell you I would share a couple with you and I think they fail so the the statement I know I'll be with him David you know he knows he's gonna be with the Lord's we reading the Psalms right he's talking about I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever he's got that expectation now some people say David didn't really speak of heaven he's just talking about she ol in the sense of everyone who's goes to the grave they all go to the grave and he's just like we're gonna go to the grave but there's no comfort in I mean what's the comfort here I can't bring him back to me but I can die like that's the big payoff moment that's the big comfort that's why he's cleaned his face and washed and worshipped gods because he's I well I can die is just fatalism that's this whole thing no that's not the case that doesn't make any sense if people think that David is just talking about the grave Dave is just talking about something other than actually fellowshipping with his son in the future seeing him again then I think that and let me say this you're an egghead and you're emotionally unaware this is a father who just lost his son and he says I will go to be with him and you're like well you know historically I think he was probably talking about seolin you probably didn't really think anything about the afterlife because nobody thought about the afterlife because I have some historical reason for thinking this and I'm just like first off I think you're wrong I think those theories that the Jews didn't think about the afterlife didn't didn't believe in it until later times I think that's just wrong headed I think that we have a lot of Scripture that shows that that's wrong that's a video for another day but yeah you've got to be emotionally unaware to think this verse isn't intended by God to comfort parents who lose kids what else could it be it's not a coincidence to think of a parent saying this and not meaning a real future relationship with their deceased child in the afterlife is to just be of low emotional intelligence just put it to you guys frankly I think the Scriptures met for us it's Medford to encourage our hearts so yeah let's compare it to what David said about Absalom just six chapters later second Samuel chapter 18 David his son Absalom another son dies and he is not okay with it this time he doesn't just get up and wash his face and get back to life he's not okay at all when his son dies look at what he says in 2nd Samuel 1833 just 6 chapters later so it's the same book it's I mean here's the death of a son saying guy loses two sons in two different scenarios responsive very differently this is all deliberate by God he said it says the king was deeply moved and went up to the chamber over the gate and wept and thus he said as he walked oh my son Absalom my son my son Absalom would I had died instead of you Oh Absalom my son my son and his heart is breaking because he's lost his son and his son was a terrible guy he doesn't have hope for the future of Absalom it's not just the loss of a life I think it's his fear about the future of Absalom he died in rebellion and wickedness and sin the contrast is impressive for the infant there is comfort for the rebellious son there is not this is pretty powerful stuff and I do think this gives us a really strong reason to support infant salvation a fellowship with them in heaven even if David is referring to a temporary going to Sheol but being in a saved location like Jesus talked about with Lazarus and the rich man he's thinking you're with me and Lazarus Lazarus right like you're not over there I'm not gonna be with you in this sense of oh you're across the chasm far away and suffering no no you're with me so he would still be ultimately in heaven and now that Jesus is resurrected we're gonna be with him and so I believe children go instantly to be with the Lord so how does this interplay with sin nature are we condemned when born I'm gonna I'm gonna dig into that next week that's gonna be something I cover next week but what we're saying so far is we have an age or rather a stage better word stage or time of accountability the age would be different for everybody and for some people that they may never reach that age regardless of how old they are right because it's about knowledge you know capability mentally and comprehension of moral things before accountability of moral things it's then based upon individual moral moral knowledge and acts and so it would apply to children to apply to some mentally disabled people which ones I don't know how to draw that line I mean God knows the hearts of man he knows their thoughts this lines easy for him to draw difficult for me there's a few other texts I want to bring in though before we call it a day I most like I said gonna be a little bit longer study but because I'm covering one topic somewhat comprehensively I want to bring all that I got all that I can on it and I think that it will be fruitful let me know what you think so mark chapter 10 here we are in our marks series part 35 and here we are mark chapter 10 verses 13 through 16 this is the passage that launched us into this study so Jesus blesses the children here and it says in verse 13 and they were bringing children to him so that he might touch them but the disciples rebuked them so don't don't be bringing your kids to Jesus he have time for them that's actually kind of typical back then there's hardly even any writing about kids from the first century because they just weren't even thought about or talked about this is very like not first century what Jesus does here but when Jesus saw this he was indignant and that's the only time that word is used of Jesus indignant he is very upset very bothered by this then refusing the kids to come to him and said to them permit the children to come to me do not hinder them do not hinder them for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these truly I say to you whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all and he took them in his arms and began blessing them laying his hands on them so Jesus takes him in his arms puts his hands on them and blesses them blesses them it's a first question we want to ask is this how old are these kids is it are these infants are their infants present in this blessing and yes there clearly are Luke 18 15 weighs in on this because it's a parallel passage so it's of the same event and it says here and they were bringing even their babies to him so that they would touch him but when the disciples saw it they began to rebuke them and he says permit the children to come it's exactly the same event except Luke uses the term brephos which means infants it's only used of infants so it has to be infants also the word pi dion is used and that could refer to infants all the way up to twelve year olds so that could be a variety of ages what we know from Luke is and he highlights this is even the infants were coming to him and they weren't looking it's not like they lives in a culture where every time someone shows you an infant you had to say how cute it was right like they're just not living in that kind of like culture infants are just like not useful yet right they matter to you to your family and your kids and you're cold in your community or whatever but they're just not useful they don't have any participation in society this is theirs burnt cartoons made for kids there aren't special advertising advertisements for kids parents don't spend their time watching kids cartoons because they revolve all the entertainment of the home around the children like that's just not what was going on back then so it's significant that he takes them in his arms and blesses them and we get that also in the mark passage implication that they're very young because he's able to take them in his arms so he's able to pick them up and carry them and bless them so definitely infants were involved in this now some actually say this marked passage this is a more Catholic position but Lutheran as well or people who insist on infant baptism they'll say this is a baptism passage now if you're not already of that stripe who think that you probably like wait what how is this a baptism passage this passage has nothing to do with baptism there's nothing about Chisolm in it if anything it's evidence of babies coming to Jesus without baptism now some will say and there's a one scholar named Jeremiah who actually says that the term hinder do not hinder them is a technical term referring to baptism I remember hearing this years ago and I was like what it just strikes you with like what and you get suspicious well don't let people pull the Greek over your eyes this is not true um the term Halloween is used here in the Greek and it is used 23 times in the New Testament and rarely refers to baptism it's not a technical term that just automatically means baptism if water is not present it's not talking about baptism that's basically how it works so this passage is actually really against infant baptism or at least it leans that way because they're received with no indication of baptism no repentance no knowledge of good and evil Jesus just welcomed these infants with a blessing because his hands 'm blesses them he was indignant at the idea that people wouldn't let these kids come to Jesus and I do think that this seems like a parallel to them coming to him in heaven it does seem that way I don't think a diverse alone proves it but along with all the other Scripture I've got I think that this adds a pretty strong element to that he says that the kingdom of God to belongs belongs to such as these and yes he's using them as a metaphor but at least it makes you wonder how can they be examples of the saved if them in their current state are rejected by God and not embraced into his presence if they die it doesn't really make them a very good example of say being saved it doesn't seem as consistent it seems more consistent with them being saved than them not or going to limbo or some other location lesser than lesser than heaven and now old Catholic teaching said limbo was actually in hell it was a place in hell and then newer Catholic teaching is you don't have to have hold a limbo it's kind of in limbo whether it's real or not but a lot of them if they do hold it will try to put limbo in heaven somehow the most kind of like in a heavenly location so that's changed over time and probably depends on if you're older or newer Catholic you may even just reject limbo and you can't according to the current catechism of course there are some old catechisms that say you should believe limbo so but I'm not Catholic so I don't have to struggle with that so the there's let's see what else we got Oh since Roman Catholicism I'll quote John Calvin John Calvin wrote the following about this passage he says it is presumption and sacrilege to drive far from the fold of Christ those whom he cherishes in his bosom and to shut the door and exclude his strangers those whom he does not wish to be forbidden to come to him I think that's I think that's a nice quote there's still more there's actually a good deal more so we're gonna keep going here we go what do we learn from John the Baptist this is from Luke chapter 1 verse 41 John was still in the womb in the womb when he was filled with the Holy Spirit and I'm not gonna make this an issue of whether he was saved or not I'll come back to that in a second just notice what it says John Luke 141 when Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting the greeting the baby leaped in her womb and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit you're like well Mike Elizabeth was filled not John yeah well if you go back to Luke 115 the angel predicted that John also would be filled for he will be great in the sight of the law and he will drink know what no wine or liquor and he will be filled with the holy spirit while yet in his mother's womb now the moment that happened is when Mary came and she's six months Elizabeth six months pregnant with John and Mary is pregnant with Jesus and so boom dead like the Holy Spirit comes because John is going to be the one declaring the truth of Christ so this is like a really significant once one-time event I mean it could have happened other times God could do what he wants but this isn't like a normal thing here's what's interesting it doesn't necessarily mean John was saved in the womb although I think if he died in the womb he would be saved but the fact that he was filled with the spirit implies that a little infant at six months in the womb and back then probably wouldn't be viable I don't think they'd be a viable baby a feed been born right then at that point in time was capable of some kind of relationship with God even though there was no rational thinking no ability of speech no knowledge of good and evil no awareness but God who can become inside of a person was able to have a relationship with John in some sense even if you would whether I don't think he was sealed with the spirit I think that happened after the death and resurrection of Christ so the Holy Spirit was coming upon him for a ministry purpose or calling not necessarily salvation related but even if so even if it's not salvation you still have a case here for a relationship with God having a relationship with an infant and you'd be like who can have an evolution but someone who doesn't understand anything I well compared to God none of us understands anything anyways we're all just a bunch of morons and he still loves us so that's pretty cool okay so that was at six months of gestation time let's see my point there infants or persons and relationship with God is possible in some sense that I think is pretty cool because he was filled with the spirit any jumped or here's a couple more points that may add some stuff to my case job in the book of Job he has a preference now this is not the strongest argument I'm going to admit this ahead of time this is why I put it towards the end but in job chapter three verse eleven job talks about he wishes he would have just died when he was born this is how bad job's life got now keep this in mind job never once attempted or kill himself or committing suicide this is like man I just wish I my life is so bad I really wish I just died when I was born look what he says why did I not die at birth come forth from the womb and expire so I'd just be stillborn right there why did the knees receive me and why the breasts that I should suck for now I would have been I would have lain down and been quiet I would have slept then I would have been at rest look at what he says about what would have happened had he died at birth it's preferable to his current situation cuz he would be resting he would be sleeping but look he goes on he describes it more he would be at rest what with kings and with counsellors of the earth who built who rebuilt ruins for themselves or with princes who had gold who were filling their houses with silver or like a miscarriage which is discarded I would not be as infants that never saw light there what's there whatever he would be if he died as a newborn there's an infant that never saw the light where would he be he would be where the wicked cease from raging and there the weary are at rest like the wicked dog aren't necessarily even there they're just not raging there's no raging of the wicked there's no one to combat him and the weary they're resting the prisoners they're at ease and they're together they're the prisoners those who suffer right there relaxing there a piece from the troubles of the world and they're together they do not hear the voice of the taskmaster the small and the great are there and the slave is free from his master so job's description of what would have happened in his hypothetical I wish I had died as a newborn it seems to imply a peaceful afterlife right not just non-existence not just some kind of limbo in fact a peaceful afterlife with those who were oppressed those who were the slaves with free even Kings princes like they all the ones that are in this case I would say saved the righteous dead they are all together now I may add another piece to this in job 19 we see that job thought he had a future resurrection job 19 it's actually one of the most profound passages in the book of Job as for me I know that my redeemer lives and at the last he will take his stand on the earth and here are we read this now with the fullness of Scripture reveal but like to be that's the second coming of Christ you know even after my skin is destroyed yet from my flesh I shall see God whom I myself shall behold and whom my eyes will see and not another my heart faints within me so he's speaking that even after he dies his skin is destroyed he's gonna see God with with his eyes and a new in a new body he's gonna have a resurrected body he's gonna see God he's gonna be with God that's his hope now why do I bring that up this is this is all admit this isn't the strongest Oreimo but I think there's some merit to it it goes like this if Jobe thought that dying as a newborn was preferable to the life he was currently living it's not an and he was expecting a resurrection that he was longing for and hoping for if that's true it's not likely that he would think dying as a newborn was preferable if you were gonna lose the resurrection as a result he seemed to think it makes more sense if he thought that that future resurrection was secure at whatever age he died that makes more sense so this helps support the idea that the stillborn have a pleasant afterlife and also have a future resurrection otherwise how is that a better scenario right this temporary suffering in a glorious resurrection it's only better to die as a newborn in his scenario if you still get the resurrection without the suffering that only makes it better so he likely didn't think being stillborn threatened that resurrection or else it probably wouldn't be preferable to his current situation let me give you another argument the sorting is from collateral damage I'm just throwing all the kitchen sink at you now for you to think about you don't have to agree with me on everything this is my case this is the argument firm collateral damage and it goes like this and I admit I'm on a limb consider this conjecture if kids don't deserve judgment but they do suffer in event events like the flood or the conquest of Canaan you know a problem seems to be obvious that there's kids who aren't supposed to judge but yet they're dying and suffering and then and then what this seems like things don't get balanced out properly in the world but that's made better by the idea that everyone those babies experiences eternal joy with God now this is a pretty subjective argument but I do think it's pretty profound because it completely flips your understanding of those events when you see that these babies have eternal life also we have just another principle another argument I'll throw at you real quick and we're gonna be wrapping things up pretty soon God's general desire for the salvation of all mankind should be weighed in if you look at babies internally well they're not fit for hell that's for sure I don't really know about the David thing maybe I'm not really confident Mike but let me just throw this at you like you know God's heart for the salvation of mankind you know how much God desires and loves and cares for her man kind of wants them to come and know him and once they give them life and that is what he wants and desires right second Peter 3:9 it says that God is not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance John 3:16 God so loved the world so if we just take God's posture of love towards people into consideration that definitely weighs in favor of babies going to be in heaven I think it's pretty strong actually also here's another argument I've never heard someone give this argument so forgive me if there's something completely wrong with well saying that I'm just not picking up on but see if you can follow my logic and it's about creation ok I'm not thinking about babies I'm sorry about creation itself rocks and plants and animals and the Sun and the earth and the moon and all this stuff it says for the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God for the creation was subjected to futility not willingly right creation doesn't have any will but because of him who subjected it in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God this is significant because what we're seeing here is in the resurrection of the Saints is also going to be the renewal of all of creation creation apart from decision making of its own was simply subjected to corruption and futility and God in Christ is going to remake all the world with our redemption comes the renewal of all things there is a blanket renewal that comes through Jesus to all of creation 22 it says we know that the whole creation groans and suffers in the pains of childbirth together until now this is a temporary like hardship and time so if I was to say that I'm having a hard time categorizing you know babies in in the whole scheme of the focus in scripture on accountable beings you know humans who have that level of accountability and I'm a hard time figuring out where babies fit there I can look on the other side and say well the exact opposite of humans as far as fallen things is all of creation right there there's no accountability there there it's just subject of futility because of the ultimate plan of God for salvation but all of that will be brought into eternal glory all of that will have the sin and that the corruption taken away and we'll all be restored and so here you've got like sort of two sandwich pieces right here you have knowledgeable free will fully morally accountable beings who come to Christ and put their trust in Jesus here you've got creation that's just like no knowledge and no awareness just subjected due to the fall and somewhere in the middle you kind of have babies right like they have this potential knowledge they don't really have it fully but I'm just saying like if if this gets restored and they get restored then I'm thinking man kitten caboodle me I like that the whole sandwich goes up to heaven that's all I'm saying that was the most clumsy way to say it and inaccurate but you get my point sometimes saying things wrong is more clear than saying them right so here's what I'm saying let me conclude let me conclude let me conclude this long study although not as long as some of my recent videos I have it there are a lot of good reasons we have to think that babies are going to be in heaven they're not morally aware therefore they're not morally accountable one to here's and I'm just going to throw a bunch at you not even all the ones I gave today - there are specific examples of them not deserving judgment even when their parents do that's pretty significant number three the reasons for people being judged that we read about in Romans that we read about in Revelation those reasons do not apply to babies they simply don't apply at all to these kids who have no knowledge of good and evil no knowledge about those issues no actions that are morally cool number four David's response to losing his son seems to strongly support a heaven view or a view that that we will have saved parents will have fellowship with their kids in the future if they're in Christ number five without good reason to invent a new location other than heaven or hell to just invent a new place for them to be heaven seems to likely be their destination I'm just gonna ad hoc and make up new places I don't I don't I'm not inclined to do that although I'll talk more about next week about those who do that and why they do it number six God's desire to have all saved is consistent with the salvation of infants so if you have any question about it you should lean towards them being saved given God's heart number seven God restores all of creation which has suffered unwillingly because of the fall and I think it's consistent to say that if you have uncertainties about babies you should apply that to them I think that that makes sense now a lot of a lot of issues come up now what will we do with the free will like what about making a real decision if every baby saved like are you saying that they don't make a choice or that they're forced by God to receive Christ I'm gonna do with this next week we're gonna talk about a Calvinist responsible in this response weird options other options that people take on those issues it'll be kind of technical some of this stuff what about limbo and that that other perspective we'll talk about that as well how does this view that I'm presenting impact other areas of theology because it does touch on other issues I'll talk a little bit about sin nature but my conclusion here is where we started we can end you can just trust God's goodness and say I don't know but we have good reason to think that we will see them in heaven if we are in Christ and that is the most important thing you need Jesus to put your trust and faith in Christ you are morally aware you know the sin you've committed you knew right from wrong and you chose wrong and I encourage you to put your trust in Jesus Christ who died for you and rose again so that he could reunite you to himself and give you the joys of eternity so repent and believe man that message never changes alright this is this has been the mark series part 35 I think and thank you guys for joining sorry about the glitch I'll be editing the video to take out the big unnecessary stuff in the beginning and if you've enjoyed this in his minute to you I'd encourage you to just be blessed man you don't need to do anything you don't need to give me nothing share the video with someone if you think it'll bless them or help them my whole philosophy on making content online is make content that helps people that's it that's the whole philosophy so um so yeah God's good I'm really blessed to get to have this this ministry and thank you for helping to make it possible even just by watching so thank you take care guys I'll see if I can figure out how to turn this thing off now because it's not my normal control

Channel: Mike Winger

Views: 45,596

Rating: 4.8993711 out of 5

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Id: d9l0nbqjKHg

Length: 75min 58sec (4558 seconds)

Published: Mon Jul 20 2020