The Religious Beliefs of the Black Hebrew Israelites - with Vocab Malone

all right we are live uh i'm pastor mike when you're a lot of you guys know me i try to help people learn to think biblically about everything but i've brought on a guest today a special guest i guess you're you're that way uh vocab malone also known as the street apologist and i have a link to his youtube channel down below if you guys want to check it out i've known vocab for a while now we met a few years ago but today we're talking about something that you've spent a great deal of time working on which is black hebrew israelites and this is a particular group that i don't know as much about but i've been asked about a lot and thought it'd be good to bring someone on who knows what's up to walk us through who are they what they believe how to interact with them how to actually reach them and change minds and talk about why why it matters this particular group is concerning for a few different reasons so uh vocab why don't you just tell us a little bit about yourself and then introduce us to the black hebrew israelites like who are they sure when i was uh in high school i started researching my own faith to make sure it was real and i got engrossed in apologetics to answer my own questions and as i did that i wanted to tell other people i started telling other people they had questions so then i had to go research their questions next thing i know evangelism and apologetics were connected and i found myself for lack of a phrase out on the street talking to people and through that interacted with all kinds of beliefs and ideas including the hebrew israelites and so that's when i started really uh studying them more because it at the time there wasn't a lot of resources these days there was a little bit more and i just kind of went in and i just really never stopped because the further i went it seems like the ideology kept on growing and growing and growing and so it was kind of a situation where we needed all hands on deck and so there's a number of us and we we deal with the ideas presented in the ever-changing theology sometimes online and sometimes even out on the corner on the street you know face-to-face as well yeah in fact you were just down in my area a few like last week was it last weekend yeah a week ago basically we were in san diego and uh ultimately we were there because there's some muslims who do dawah that's inviting people into islam at a beautiful park there called balboa park but we knew that wasn't until sunday and so we said well let's also go talk to some hebrew israelites so we ended up talking to saqqari one of the main people who got to have a conversation was adam coleman and it was a decent conversation you know back and forth yeah adam did great he's a great guy it was sad though because they did like a follow-up video and in that they were just really unfair to him and it was it was tough because they they ruined uh somewhat helpful dialogue with with some of the stuff they said in the commentary you know sometimes this kind of thing happens but nonetheless um everyone involved learned a lot you know john mccrae from you know what do you mean he was there sam sherman david wood a number of other brothers and sisters a younger guy named carlton and of course adam myself so it was an awesome time so all right break us in a little bit uh you know big picture if you've never heard of the hebrew israelites or the black hebrew israelites like what do we need to know 101 who is this group uh the key thing is the ideology of hebrew and the essence of it is if you're negatively impacted by the transatlantic slave trade you might just be a true israelite there's different ways you can phrase that but that's the essence of hebrew israelism now there's a lot of things that are generally associated along with it because that claim in and of itself although historically dubious is not heretical per se um it's all the things that get attached and the way this newly discovered if it really is discovered identity becomes the the pinnacle of a person's identity and the trump card and their theology so everything gets thrown out of whack everything's autopsy tervy it's almost impossible i'm speaking anecdotally maybe it is possible but mike it is almost impossible to find a hebrew israelite of any type or stripe who is balanced in their view of christ and in their supposed view of them being an israelite so there's like this issue that probably most people aren't even thinking of that becomes the center of the the unifying truth yeah the movement and then it just from there it branches out and it has really detrimental impacts on sort of central christian beliefs or at least it seems that it does that regularly yes i'll give you i'll go ahead you know go ahead give me something yeah yeah i'll give you examples i want to i want to be a good boy here right be a good apologetics boy give an example of what you're saying uh the trinity is one of the first doctrines to go and i'll tell you how it works there's a few ways that the devil uses hebrews to attack the trinity one is people start reading stuff and and say oh my goodness this is a greco-roman idea inspired by pagan philosophy who knows what sources they're getting a hold of generally speaking they're not very good sources you've seen this stuff online and since now they understand themselves as an israelite there's an oh there's a new kind of oversensitivity towards anything that they're concerned is non-israelite so the trinity now is deemed as this other thing that was an intrusion into true messiah following you know being a disciple of the messiah or also because of this new emphasis on the old testament almost as if the new hasn't even come because of that uh the trinity gets diluted because i think most of us even if we believe the blueprint for the trinity is the old testament understand the doctrine is more explicitly laid out with the incarnation and the subsequent growth of the early church as we see that we understand we want the complete package to have a better trinitarian understanding of god's nature this new emphasis on the old testament really sometimes at the exclusion of the new as if it's kind of like this just addendum and sometimes even wrong saqari the group we were out talking to saturday mike straight up says is one of their points of doctrine paul went off and paul made errors and if we defend him they'll say oh here you guys are defending the doctrine of man over and against the doctrine of god that's part of what they'll say which is ironic right and so that's an example of something that goes often i've only met a few trinitarian hebrews of lights in my life and i i don't think there's any camp or group that's officially trinitarian except for one church i know of and they're off balance in so many other ways that their trinitarian doctrinal statement doesn't save them from imbalance in other ways yeah wow so okay um i think one of the questions that we're probably going to have in the audience right now is wait so are these are these jews are these people jewish they're they're they're saying they're they're from abraham stock is that like a it it sounds like it's not coming from a genetic ancestry going back to abraham or even a faith ancestry that traces back through the faith of the generations but rather a experiential thing like if you went through this experience of the the transatlantic slave trade then you are therefore this people group is is that right yes sometimes i say that the hebrew israelite interpretation uses rather misuses deuteronomy 28 as a genetic test kit meaning most hebrew lights not all a lot are unsure about dna that's not really a place they look now some do get into it don't get me wrong but a lot are very skeptical of it right and they'll say you know that's not what the most high intended us to to do is to look to to this what he intended is for us to look at the signs that would follow his people when they disobeyed him and then they'll list these curses that are in the latter half of deuteronomy 28 and they'll say what's the only people group you know who has experienced all those and they'll say something like the so-called africans because they don't believe that they're actually african they believe they're israelites who pass through africa so they do believe they're genetically israelites they just usually don't use genetic science to get there some of them will use it as a support but generally speaking it's deuteronomy 28 and other passages that they tie together to say we fulfill those so they would use scripture sort of as a way to point to themselves now let's later on we'll go we'll go into deuteronomy 28 and we'll look at you know we'll talk about sort of like how you walk through these issues uh but i just want to get like a big scope understanding of the group as a whole so they're they're saying uh we've gone through experiences that we find described in deuteronomy 28 that show that we're the people that experienced these curses which means we also have those promises which means we're we're israelites we're the true israelites and do they connect that to like a specific tribe or just like the tribes scattered abroad like the despora or something like that so if they're part of what's called a one west camp so think of one west as not a specific group mike but think of if i use the term one west think of it as if i describe the wesleyan holiness tradition right there's not a denomination per se called wesleyan holiness but you understand it's an umbrella term to describe various branches of christianity in the sense of denominational structures one west or one west ism is a certain type of hebrew israelism if they're o one wester a telltale sign of a one wester is to answer your question the 12 tribes chart the 12 tribes chart is usually on a sandwich board if they're out in the street situation and what it does is it has on the left a modern day i'm sorry one of the ancient troll tribes of israel and on the right um a corresponding modern day people group or ethnic uh or even geographical boundary for example we'll say reuben seminole indians simeon dominicans manasseh cubans ephraim puerto ricans you get the idea and then they would turn to genesis 49 where there's cryptic kind of future prophecy given based upon each son's character at the time and they'll say here's how you know issachar had burdens that he carried well the mexicans had the burden of the spanish and the english as oppressors and it says that issachar entered into a land of rest and we see that mexico is a beautiful place where they take a siesta therefore mexicans are issachar so the one westers do go to specific tribes so they're not even really black people they're not even really black heber israelites they're hebrew israelites who have all kinds of different people native american hispanic thrown into their their their group of she is israel other ones non-one westerners mike they don't believe in the 12-tribe shark they think it's hokum they think it's malarkey and they think it's a travesty to add mexicans and native americans for example into the group of israel they they would think it's mainly only black folks and they would think that most of them are probably from the tribe of judah or the southern tribes right that's that's the general consensus and they or they'll say we don't really know who's who we just know you're an israelite if you went through this and those guys you usually don't see on the street an example of that group would be israel of god which mike has a 6 000 seat church in south chicago so we're talking about a big group that's what i've got but you won't you won't really see them on the street yeah you know particularly i think a place called riverdale but it's it's a suburb of susquehanna on that note real quick just okay overall there's lots of and this is what i've learned from watching your content here and you talk about this there's tons of different groups and they're not sometimes not friendly at all with each other there's some infighting that goes on uh so you know hebrew israelites is like a big umbrella that represents a lot of things and you're aware of the nuances there but as far as the umbrella goes uh how many people are we talking about and how quickly is it growing as far as currently that's what's fascinating i'm actually going to read something here briefly from a little article that was recently done and this is fascinating um lifeway research recently mike they did a research on black americans views on israel and listen to an excerpt that summarizes the findings okay many african-americans said they think more positively about the nation of israel because of the historic connections between their journey of their because between the journey of their ethnicity and the journey of the jews so just pause real quick that's sort of historic if you listen to a lot of the old spirituals for example uh there's connections because they saw a parallel in the suffering right or harriet tubman was called moses for example right so that that parallel was understood by many nat turner i'm not saying that uh you know killing babies like nat turner ended up doing was good but he did understand a parallel between israelites and black americans plight right and i wouldn't disagree with that part now the hebrews like to try to claim that he actually thought they were israelites that's not true but that's historic but it's morphed into something more continuing on real quick check this out around a quarter said their opinion of israel has been positively influenced due to historic parallels between the enslavement of jews in ancient egypt and blacks in america 27 and due to the similarities between the two groups overcoming oppression jewish people and pursuing the promised land and african americans pursuing civil rights 26 percent interestingly most respondents to the survey 62 percent said they were not familiar with the teachings of black hebrew israelites so they actually asked them this in this lifeway research which is a big deal so 62 percent didn't even hear about it a group that contends at black americans the physical descent of the ancient islands very few four percent considered themselves to be a black hebrew israelite now four percent may not sound like much so people like oh we don't got to worry about these guys ladies and gentlemen four percent of black america is a million and a half people if you do the numbers depending on how you count it because there's these issues of how do you count so-called bi-racial people and there's these questions about who counts but it's about a million and a half people who self-identify in some way as a hebrew is like now does that mean there's a million and a half people ready to go stand out on your local metropolitan street corner on a saturday and yell at you for four hours no but that certainly is part of an aspect probably the most visible part of hebrews if you live in a city yeah so four percent is actually a big deal yeah i have seen them out here in long beach not recently since covet pretty much but before that up on downey avenue and uh and you can you know i look and i'm like that those are joe's witnesses those are mormons those are hebrew israelites like you could just tell um yeah yeah yeah take me back like 30 years from 30 years ago 1991 like how many were there then in the u.s because it seems like i'd never heard of this before right well uh you know if you go back a little bit further into the 1890s that's the first discernible moment in history that we know of that somebody said black americans equal hebrews right uh william crowdy and shortly after him someone named fs cherry and they established churches and da da da and you don't really hear much about it until 19 uh until the early 1900's then this thing pops up called the commandment keepers but you can tell by the name it's sort of a kind of like a black rabbinic judaism in a way it's a lot more old testament based but out of the commandment keepers group which was pretty big in harlem and a lot of there's a lot of scholastic research on the commandment keepers because scholars have found them interesting although their group has almost dwindled out their legacy and influence is still felt to this day in 1969 a small group of men left the commandment keepers in harlem and eventually established a school at 1 west 125th street and that's why we call them one westers who those who come out of that school of thought and i've actually visited the location the bottom of it is a uh [Music] not a steak and shake but that other one something shake i forget what it's called but shake shack something like that anyways and so uh been there and uh that school had a lot of splits and from those splits in the mid 90s became all these little groups and once they uh learned how to use youtube to promote their doctrine it was on so they were earlier some of them were early adopters to youtube kind of youtube was point you know 1.0 kind of stuff right and the earliest camps that did it blew up because because of the youtube stuff and then sort of in the modern era like the last 10 years where there's been kind of heightened tension and these a lot of these things uh really resurfaced in a more ferocious way in our cities hebrew israelism seems to have benefited positively from that and exploded the past 10 years especially and almost every camp that i know of has experienced growth that's a hebrews a light group and there's been more and more splinters and the splinters grow even in my own city i've seen them go from one corner to like 10 corners just in the past five years and so we are talking about exponential growth and that's why you know people they don't want to take it serious but imagine if you were there in the beginning of mormonism you might have thought it sounded silly but next thing you know they're all over ohio they're all over missouri they're all over utah so you better watch out yeah you don't even have to sell me on this i'm so on the same page yeah it's like catch these things when they're beginning to trend or even earlier if you can help it and and get it now get the content out there that's dealing with it so that people can be equipped to respond to it because in the end this is not a us versus hebrew israelites thing this is about the truth of christ it's about being faithful to the word of god it's about uh really just holding fast to the truth that's it and wanting other people to have that truth as well uh now that so so they're growing significantly and i just i mean just imagine that all of the racial tension that's going on helps because at the core of this is a lot of that and so um that probably assists as well now are the hebrew israelites pretty much the people who are part of the movement are they pretty much all like black people is there a variety that's within there or is like if a white person came and said i'd like to join the group what does that look like all right so uh let's say you're mike winger and you say i'm mike winger um i'm of european descent right yeah you could go to you could you say you said that right you could go to gocc gathering of christ church gocc teaches you you are a gentile you're not an israelite like us but you can be grafted in and a lot of the other groups criticize gocc for allowing gentiles at their passover and so that's one group and they're even a one west group or you could go to israel of god that i mentioned earlier you could go and they would say okay just just let us teach you brother so one thing that's bigger with these groups like israel of god for example is they believe in something they kind of officially almost with a capital p called the protocol and by that they mean you can't go out of order kind of like we would hold well i don't know about you but chris certain christians hold it complementarianism they think there's an established word of creation gocc or especially iog that's israel of god is big on there's a protocol there's an order in god's creation so a gentile that's how they would see you that's how they see me as well can can only teach other gentiles can have no teaching authority over someone who's deemed an israelite doesn't matter the age doesn't matter the level of knowledge anything like that now let's say you said well i still want to teach man well then you've got to go all the way out to tennessee and you can join up with straightway ministries uh and uh you can straightway truth ministries under pastor dao and he'll he'll say um hey you could join in and and we'll even let you teach and one thing about his group is they have a massive internet influence and for whatever reason i think it's because they promote sort of a hyper masculinity not that i'm against not that i'm against masculinity but sort of a toxic masculinity in the sense of toxic gets overused but the way they promote it almost could be well that does seem like an example of toxic vaccine you know it's got to have some meaning anyways i don't want people to think i'm a snowflake over here but but anyways you could go over there they've got a lot of nfl players former nfl players in their group uh and when i say a lot i mean a lot and almost all their nfl players who have joined up with straightway are former professing christians when they were in the when they were in the league so you could join with them or you could go to gms mike so i'm telling you all the cults you can join you can go to gms and say here i am they'll say well who's your father and my father is a mccluskey and he's irish okay well we know that there was black irish do you resonate with our teaching they're not going to say it that way they'll say do you believe what we're saying do you vibe with it and you say yeah and then they say well let me hear your breakdown of such and such and you say hey my spirit says because the the spirit cries out uh in the in the spirit of the prophets discerns they use first corinthians and they use galatians which says our spirit christ have a father and they'll say we discern that you are and it's your life even though you don't look like a stereotypical israelite and and so you would actually be deemed a genetic israelite and if another camp say hey this guy is white how come he's in your camp and they'll say well haven't you read the passage in in daniel and uh i think it's in hosea one says that israel be as a speckled bird and the other one says that there will be confusion of face so they use those two passages to say israel will become mixed looking even though you actually are really an israelite so they're not looking at you mike as we're accepting a white guy they're saying you're a european or you appear to be a european because of the mixture but you actually are an israelite on your father's side it's just you you look the way you look they're not saying you're a white guy we're letting in we're saying you look like a white guy but you're actually is right that's gms so some of the groups will let a white person in but it's under different ways now sure let's say it's isupk last example i'll get they say if you're white in any way you look at how you look you can't even come to our barbecue you are not allowed to eat with us in a public park when we have our barbecue it literally says in our flyer no whites so they must not like paul right like they have to reject what paul says they turn to paul uh i'm sorry they turn to peter and they say look peter says that the the wicked and the corrupt twist paul's letters and that's exactly what you white christians do you twist his so we need to get an understanding on paul based upon an israelite understanding because didn't he say he said hebrew of hebrew not your white european twisting of paul they would say you don't understand paul icp for example other ones like ron shields divine prospect kingdom harbinger ministries and uh saqari they would say paul was simply wrong sometimes or that he's offering a rabbinical opinion for gentiles that has no bearing on me yeah so they have different ways to deal with paul so the interesting thing here is that none of this is actually totally new um so right now there's a connection here between these guys a strong connection and those who are like torah observant and who feel like we're gentiles are supposed to be brought under the law and they wouldn't identify themselves as genetically israel but they would say i'm still coming under the law um that that's what jesus wants and then that group right that the torah observant would would fall into two broad camps of those who say you misunderstood paul and those who say no paul's wrong like these are the same these are the same camps because they have to deal with the same issues so that's kind of interesting um now let's talk a little bit there's even now there's even a little bit of mormon there's there's even a little bit of mormonism in there you know mormons how they teach that the native americans are descended from ancient israelites that's right or at least some of them yeah hebrew israelites of the one west variety teach the same thing but go ahead i'll i'm sorry i didn't interrupt you i just thought you were one more uh i wonder how much of the population of the world they would they would say is actually descended from abraham because it sounds like it's becoming a pretty large amount of the planet that's what i say sometimes to some of them and uh they'll sometimes say well you know white people have a genetic defect you guys are the minority they start sounding like nation of islam members sometimes at that point or they'll say hey well uh sand of the sea stars of the sky you know still curious what percentage they put on it but right but at any rate sometimes i ask i i'll ask what percentage of the curses do you have to experience to be an israelite because some of them say there's still some west africans less than left in israel and i'll say or i'm sorry there's still some israelites left in west africa i'll say yeah but they didn't experience a transatlantic slave trade and they'll say well you don't have to experience all the curses i was like well then how's deuteronomy 2868 a defining aspect of what means israelite if you don't experience it to be in israel okay anyways all right there's okay there's so much more still to cover okay so what are their attitudes generally speaking towards uh what most of us would consider actually jewish people say the nation of israel that kind of thing what's their attitude i'm just gonna say it and they're gonna be mad at me and i just i love them but they they need the truth i've never met a hebrews light who's not an anti-semite never now they'll say how can we be anti-semitic we are semitic yeah right but that's not even a good argument and it's assuming the the issue anyway even the nicest hebrews of light seems to have a strong distaste towards anything they think is jewish and they call them kazaars so they believe in the khazarian theory which is basically their frauds they use revelation 2 9 and 3 9 against them to say they're the synagogue of satan they believe some of them that they're descendants of amalek so sort of one of the worst tribes out of the the amalekites because they're historic enemies to israel so they actually think they're like a head tribe of edom and edom's also a historic enemy of israel so they'll put other things upon them almost all of them have accused me of being a crypto jew at some point they'll look up my real last name and say some jews share this last name but here's the thing they seem to be under this assumption it's false that almost all people who self-identify as jews are white but that's only ashkenazi and it's true ashkenazi are more prominent in world affairs and it's it's a true sort of a lot more people know about them but that's not the only kind for lack of a better word of modern day jew there is there's sephardic there's jews who never left iraq now most of them have left now but when i say left i mean prior to what what has happened in iraq now but the iraqi jews the jews in persia jews in africa all over and they look all kinds of different ways and generally they just discount most of them as being ethnic and religious frauds and they tend to have a strong distaste for them there's some of them mike who dislike israel so much they teach and i'm not joking about this that real israel is in west africa that the jews have actually swapped out the world's understanding of where the promised land is and it's not even in the middle east it's actually in west africa one group that teaches that is called teo ministries it's a real thing they really teach us and you're like bro you're talking about like trading like musical chairs with the map you know yeah it's deeply conspiratorial at that point and that's that's when you realize this is not so much about data as it is about trust like you simply don't trust anyone except your leaders and so whatever they say must be true and any research into data is conspiracy okay well that yeah the maps say that because of all these fake people oh hold it up hold it up that's the one the jewish back it up a bit it's a little too close there you go the jewish masquerade the relationship between modern jews and ancient hebrew israelites so this is like yeah the whole book is about how how uh jews are basically fakes yeah and this is of course one of the problems with this with this movement right because they're you know they're being taught something told there are truths here there are truths here and there are some parallels and and i think helpful parallels that have helped people who've gone through suffering and slavery and stuff like that when they look and they see how god delivered the people of israel through all that stuff but um but it turns into like um something else when they decide they're gonna say no that's us we're you and let's talk about how how you have to change christianity and judaism in a sense jewish history in order to make this work so what do what do they believe about jesus i wish there was a simple answer to that a lot of these guys uh would say they believe jesus is a messiah and that they hold to the authority of the new testament but there is a significant portion of hebrew israelites who adopt in an old testament or tanakh only or non-messianic although they don't like that term of view and where um they don't think jesus was the messiah and at that point you could almost use a lot of the resources you would get from like a michael brown for example to have some of these discussions with some of those guys one prominent guy who i respect a lot you know he he's uh he's he's a respectful uh really interesting guy his name is zion lex he's a prominent old testament only hebrew israelite um the other ones i gotta tell you mike unless unless they're trying to prove jesus looked like them you don't hear a lot about jesus the main time you hear about jesus is when they go to revelation chapter 1 and try to show from the description of his majesty and glory that it's actually a description of its ethnicity so they don't even talk about how this is really a description of jesus's deity yeah because most of them don't believe jesus is god by the way let's briefly talk about that because i've seen this one a lot so what's the revelation passage revelation chapter 1 i believe it's verses 14 and 15. i'll put it up on screen for everybody here so we can discuss this um you know i don't really care you know i don't have an axe to grind on what jesus looked like i'd like to know what he really looked like that's and we'd all like that but uh but there's yeah this is they'll say he'll say yes it is they'll say if it doesn't matter then why why do all your churches have pictures of white jesus in them my church doesn't have a picture of a white jesus that i'm just saying that's the kind of thing they would say in response oh now it doesn't matter now it doesn't matter now that we're coming into knowledge of who we are all of a sudden the white christians tell us it doesn't matter but for generations we've opened up our bible and seen a guy that looks like you it seemed to matter then you see what i'm saying i get that except that i've as long as i've been a christian i never thought jesus was white ever and and i have very little respect for renaissance artists and their theology so that's right so personally it's just like yeah you're just making stuff up about me i don't know what you're doing but um you know jesus was was jewish you know he's middle eastern but okay revelation 114 says the hares explain to us how they use it and how you'd respond to it if you would the hairs of his head were white like like white wool like snow his eyes were like a flame of fire his feet were like burnished bronze refined in a furnace and his voice was like the roar of many waters all right now uh and then i guess you get at the end of verse 16 it says his face was like the sun shining at full strength yeah so the so i i like the esv they so a lot of them use the kjv and just by way of comparison if i i'll look at it so you guys can see how what that says as well sure um just so you can see give me just a sec here make it bigger yeah there's there it is his head and hair were white like wool as white as snow his eyes like a flame of fire his feet were like fine brass oh it looks like i lost lost in just a second y'all how are you like moses off the mountain oh there you go huh are we back i lost you for a second oh i'm sorry about that that was weird uh so the gloss over his head was white his head was white yeah you see what i'm saying because it says it's not just his hair but his head too yes and they'll say well that just means it was shining or something but then the hairs if you look at all their portrayals they have a jesus who's got a hair full of white hair a head full of white hair and uh he looks like he's like 65 years old right and so sometimes we'll joke around with him and say man that is the oldest looking 33 year old i've ever seen not that jesus has to stay looking 33 for eternity but it's just funny they're like here's what jesus looked like and like you know last we knew of them but here's what they zoom in on white like wool they'll say who's the only people who have woolly hair on this planet they'll say the so-called black man but of course notice it says right right after it as white as snow so obviously it's talking about texture because it's like your mama's so fat how fat is she right well his hair was so white how white was it you see i'm saying white like wool as white as snow and i'll say it's talking about tech it's not talking about texture it's talking about color they'll say no it's talking about both and i'll say okay what's the texture of snow if it's talking about both with the wool then wouldn't it be talking about both with the snow what who has texture whose hair texture is like snow you see what i'm saying so usually though they just do these in rapid fashion yelling it out and whenever they get to a point everyone you know hoorahs is so it's very difficult to really get into this discussion they just go over it because this is not a description of jesus on a saturday night you see what i'm saying oh yeah that's the key that's the key yeah yeah yeah that's white snow and his eyes were his flame of fire and i kid you not uh a lot of the groups say that's because i i wish i didn't have to repeat this mike a lot of the groups say black folks eyes get red when they drink and jesus the bible says he's gonna come back uh drinking of of wine uh basically mad as heck right they'll say other language but they actually say uh the fiery flaming eyes because his eyes are red from drinking then again i'm just honest okay listen here's a reveal moment yeah here's a reveal moment for us we don't care about the truth of jesus we have an agenda we want to say that jesus looks a certain way to support our theology so red eyes alcohol right like i'm gonna go that way and this is this is a good reveal moment where you just and when they're hitting you rapid fire a lot of people are like i don't i can't respond that quick but yeah the text is clearly not describing jesus as so you can get his ethnic ethnicity from the description this is this is a glorified revelation that's all deeply symbolic i don't think it has to tell you anything about jesus skin tone or even the color of his hair for that matter uh at least that's my view on that what do you think well exactly i mean look at verse 13 mike and in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the son of man so he's standing in the mix of seven candlesticks that's the church that's about the church so this jesus is not really walking around with seven candlesticks around him do you see him saying so they're gonna make this little that jesus is walking around like with his protective shield like in a video game when you get a star he's got seven candlesticks roaming around his feet or something clothed with the garment down to the foot and gird about uh the pats with the golden girl this is royal uh kind of priestly investments he has on it's showing all his different offices and for each one of these you can look and see the old testament connections same thing with this other description it goes back to daniel chapter 7. that's really where revelation 1 14 comes out of it goes back to daniel 7 that's that son of man and the flame of fire this is the description of yahweh he's teaching and he see he seeks about to to judge because this is kind of the mode and he has this discerning and and the flame purifies right and check this out also when you look there at revelation 1 14 you see after at verse 15 his feet were like burnished bronze refined in the furnace and his voice was like the roar of many waters now i'm going to go back to the part uh about the bronze but first let me say about the voice of many waters yeah they actually say that is the baritone voice of the black man so the the the the voice of many waters is the is the deep voice like the berry white type of voice right right uh james earl jones right yeah now if you look at it mike yahweh when he speaks multiple times in the old testament it says and i heard a voice like mini water sounding it's like this rushing water picture it's the voice of yahweh so by having jesus have the voice of many waters here it's showing you that when jesus speaks yahweh speaks but they cross over that to make it a baritone voice right and it's and it's look they had people with deep voices back then if if you wanted to tell you had a baritone voice the voice is of a of a large man or something like that right but but back then okay there's no speakers there's no amplification there's no stereo systems when you want something really loud you describe the sound of a waterfall or of the ocean during a storm right have you ever been out there yeah it's so loud the water where a waterfall's so loud you try to film and your camera can't even film anything except white noise because it's so loud and yeah so the voice of minnie waters is to say this like super loud like surrounding voice yeah it's about it's about volume not pitch that's that's the thing anyway that that's something a guy with a guitar hanging up in the background would say now check this out last one i'll do uh i don't want to be all over here but i hope this is helpful to people mike oh yeah uh his feet like into fine brass as if they burned in a furnace they'll say what color is something when you burn it and people will usually say black or dark it'll say right so if jesus's feet are black what color could the rest of his body be you think he's going to be a white man with black feet that'd be weird right and so they'll say well look his feet burn at first his fever black obviously the rest of his body is ignoring earlier what said his head was white right yeah his head and hair were white yeah yes now check this out what is this saying as if they burned in a furnace it's actually kind of a fascinating thing because when you when you look at it it doesn't say as if they were burnt uh-huh here let's see you're reading from the uh yes that's a that was a kjv but i'm going to go back to the esv king james has as if refined in a furnace oh i'll show you what it has i'll just the kjv says as if they burned in a furnace but it's still fine because this bur this burn mic it's uh it's a verb of course it's in the perfect tense passive it's participle plural nominative masculine and here's here's the point about saying all that this is an uh kind of an action being done unto it and here's the thing it's not a finish or completed action it's not done yet meaning they're currently burning it doesn't say the english reflects it if you if you if they would just look at it right it doesn't say as if they were burnt it says is if they burned in a furnace meaning as if they were burning jesus is sort of a man on fire and it's actually very evident when you look at the passage as a whole seven golden land candlesticks you see that the son of man and go back to daniel 7 to see how he's described this garment uh perhaps golden girdle hairs white like wool white snow flame of fire fine brass burnish and then you go down even further verse 16 in his right hand seven stars what ethnicity holds seven stars that's not an ethnicity it's a further description of jesus and his majesty and you can get into symbolism that as well adam's mouth went a sharp two-edged sword again that's also not an ethnic description and look at this and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength now right his countenance there so that's verse 16. now again i'm reading out of the cage if you go back over the esv it says his face was like the sun shining in full shrink so he has a white or a yellow face or an orange face if we're gonna make it that no again this is description of yahweh and the glory of the lord you know when you go to moses and the mountain this is the kind of picture we're getting jesus is sort of like a human candy corn in color is the way that's being described meaning it's the point is this burning man on fire representing the glory of yahweh himself and it's really an attestation to his deity his majesty his royalty his power his glory they strip all that away and say this means jesus is black yeah which is in the beginning at the outset it's okay a it's not trying to tell you what jesus looked like while he was walking the earth it's a revelation of jesus in glory be right all these things are symbolic as you're saying to represent truths about christ yes they're not meant to say this is what he always looks like in in his you know human form or something like that and then uh and then see if you really take it as a literal physical description of what jesus just always looks like it doesn't fit any ethnicity it's just like this is he's just he's glowing he's got you know light coming out of him uh he's got a sword coming out of his mouth uh let's talk about that i don't know what ethnicity has swords coming into their mouth obviously this is not meant to be taken that way but this is this is what every cult does they take verses that are you can say them real fast you grab a few points you ask people trick questions and then you move on to a new verse you know and then yeah that happens what are some of the other things though if unless you want to share more on this what are some other things that that they that like when they first initially kind of get people into the movement how do they get you in how do they sort of convince you that this is true deuteronomy 28 is the big one and if you're willing to go there we could but while we're going there i want to encourage everyone you know we're not making up these interpretations about revelation now everyone has an old testament connection but some of them john even tells you and at the end of revelation 1 is verse 20 and he says this everybody as for the mystery of the seven stars that you saw on my right hand and the seven golden lamb sins the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches and the seven lampstands are the seven churches john is literally telling you there's a symbolic interpretation to the way i'm describing jesus it's like hey go find out the rest of it from the old testament but he's like here's some of the here's some of the code the key right here ladies and gentlemen now the problem is when we refute their misuse of this mic they'll say oh so jesus was white jesus was not white it would be some kind of strange miracle in the middle east if he was it'd be it'd be it'd be the weirdest thing it'd make the it'd make the jerusalem daily front page right right but but not being white doesn't mean you're black this bifurcated view of the world like a post jim crow era then it really is a biblical way of thinking and the larger world there's so many more different things and we could even get an archaeology and they've discovered galilean first century male skulls a whole sort of cachet of them and they did the measurements and did this and that and they most closely line up with the jews of iraq today who have now mainly left iraq but they match up with the modern people group as far as the way they look and uh there's even done some artists who who get into this whole thing about reconstructions now and then they'll kind of look at some any contemporary images we have of israelites which are few and far between granted but the mummy portraits are perhaps one place although those may mainly be egyptians but that's interesting because sometimes egyptians were confused with israelites so we can see what first century egyptians look like is a cue to maybe the way some first century jews look like and it kind of goes on a broader array of range so there's a lot to do but the second you start engaging in this they'll just say this is just white supremacy this is you they'll put it off on something else but it's like no let's say jesus was black revelation 1 is not the place to go to find it but uh deuteronomy 28 are you ready i'm ready let's dig in this is like probably the main passage right this is sort of the core of okay so there's a lot of variety within the hebrew israelite movement um who we're suggesting they're not actually hebrew they're not actually israelites but the thing that connects them is this one core idea that they're getting from deuteronomy 28 so walk us walk us through this one well if you actually look for sermons on direct 28 the funny thing is you'll find a bunch of prosperity preachers claiming the first uh little batch of verses for modern day christians to be rich [Laughter] and ignoring all the bad stuff yes so that's that's one interesting thing but when you start reverse 15 the curse section is longer yeah now um it's just like this um here's a rough parallel uh you know there's a business and uh it says uh you know i'm gonna pick up i'm gonna pick up your trash uh every day for the next year and here's how much you'll pay me if i pick up your trash and if i don't here's what will happen and if you break the contract here's what can happen to you now the harsher version of that is these treaties that would be done between a higher and a lesser uh power you know the conquering king with the subjugated people and in these treaties you would you would see this kind of thing well god is doing that with israel here and so this isn't these aren't prophecies in the proper sense these are simply conditions of what god is saying will happen if you do this then i will do this right so it's at the end of the law and it's it's it's like this hey i've given you the law here it is if you break it here's what's gonna happen to you right and here's the crazy thing mike almost every single one of these in some way or another you can find fulfilled in the pages of the old and new testaments themselves you don't need a leap frog to the modern era right to to go look to colonialist and imperialist and slave traders to find the fulfillment of them it's right there in the old testament everything from siege warfare to kings be taken away to um cannibalism frankly and things like that right now when you look at it there's a lot in here they'll read and we could look through a couple of them the key the big one they focus on though is verse 68 would you be able to read that yep let me just get there real quick deuteronomy 28 68 says and the lord will bring you back in ships to egypt a journey that i promise that you should never make again and there you shall offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves but there will be no buyer right now that's the esv which they don't like and i'll show you in the esv but then i'll show you a couple differences in the kjv with it because they think the kjv is better for their interpretation but uh so the lord will bring you back in ships to egypt so they'll say okay who went in slave ships into slavery that you know of and obviously people say well yeah people of offering a dissent and you'll say well wait a minute it says to egypt right now they'll say well if you look up egypt the way god uses it in the old testament it can just simply mean house of bondage so it's using egypt as a symbolic way to describe slavery itself or bondage of some sort so this doesn't mean you had to literally go back to egypt although the ships are literal so you would take literal ships back into bondage in in various places a journey that i promised that you should never make again because i'll ask them well it says make again now can you go back to a place you've never been to so it seems clear that it's talking about egypt because it says i promise you wouldn't make this journey again they'll say no it's just saying back into slavery so again they want a big picture they want to say that the description in deuteronomy 28 is of the uh africans being brought over to the u.s and because it fits so well it proves that they are they are actually the people to whom this promise was given and so you're pointing out specific things okay well but you didn't go to egypt oh well we take that symbolically okay but it says you never make it again which implies you made it once before and how did they respond to that uh they say that's just where you know we wouldn't we god said he wouldn't go back into slavery basically but we're going back because we're breaking the law it's not really about literally egypt it's about house of bondage right uh and they they also use deuteronomy 28 46 as justification for this so here's ronald dalton he wrote a book called from hebrews to negros and here's what he said here's a quote from ronald dalton and they the curses shall be upon thee for a sign and a wonder and upon thy seed forever that's the quote he quotes there from deuteronomy 28 46 because of this they would also lose their heritage to be enslaved and scattered amongst nations that they didn't know neither the land nor the language from what country has the majority of slaves been taken and scattered to the four corners of the earth what race of people has been led into cadet into captivity to the many different nations of the world and so they would look at deuteronomy 28 46 as a justification for how they're misusing deuteronomy 28 68 but then the second part of the verse the second part or the verse mike says this um uh and there you shall offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves but there are no there will be no buyer they'll say okay that's a wrong translation we need to go to the kjv and here's what the kjv says i got it ready and there so you see that do you see the difference and there you shall be sold unto your enemies for bond men and bond women and no man shall buy you do you see the difference yes yeah so in one you're selling yourselves and the other you're being sold right yeah with the with the ancient like context of slavery especially back in the day of scripture it really was like we're in poverty we have no homes then you know yourself like that's what you would do you you'd have a contract with somebody and you'd sell yourself into bondage but here they're saying it's happening to them you shall be sold so therefore it's it fits more with the transatlantic slave trade right now this this uh verb form uh the verb here translated cell or offer is macar it's a reflexive verb form what that means is the subject of the verb acts upon or with respect to itself and so that's why the modern a lot of modern translations are actually better reflecting the grammar of the passage so the nasb for example says and there you will offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves the csb says there you will sell yourselves to your enemies as male and female slaves now a lot of hebrews like to look at upon that essentially as a conspiracy that it's been changed to to sort of dampen the re-awakening right right because listen this is the key i want to discuss with you the meaning of the text but in the back of your head you've been taught there's a conspiracy so anytime you have conflicting information you're just like oh like white lies that's all i and then i move on i don't i don't need to actually research i just need to know i trust these people i don't trust those people then conflicting information is rejected outright yeah no i mean it's it so it is difficult to witness and engage with the hebrews of light with the barriers up but i want people to remember if you've dealt with mormons and jehovah's witnesses and muslims and atheists it's difficult talking to them too and it's difficult talking to joe's six-pack it's difficult to talk to unbelievers about the gospel because they don't want to believe it right and that's why we pray for a miracle upon heart so if someone's like ah it's difficult they're not gonna get saved well first of all they do get saved okay i'm just saying to the audience not to you mike i know your heart but to the audience guys uh people have come out of this and we can give countless testimonies and they're still coming out cultish uh it's a podcast of apology it just did a recent two of our episode with oscar dunlap he was involved for this eight and a half years a number of years officially as a gocc member and the lord brought him out through a number of circumstances and now he's doing great and in fact he's the best christian of all mike he's reformed so it's amazing to see [Laughter] sorry i just had to do that once he went straight to the good stuff mike yeah man i'm not there yet maybe one day i'm just teasing everyone please don't get mad i hope you know me and vocab we don't we don't care uh yeah we really don't i just i i don't even sweat it i i don't want to lose relationships or reform theology yeah but uh yes besides i think i know i'm just not calvinist hey you know what that's all right man you do you know what yeah that's that's all right man nobody starts fires so so what you see is is uh they'll go there and they'll say well you'll be sold into your enemies and now here's the thing with it mike let's go with the kjv for a second which is a less accurate rendering of the grammar right because we understand the car's reflexive there but let's just go with there you shall be sold unto your enemies why would people be selling them if no one will buy them and also how is it a curse if no one buys you wouldn't that be good if you're being sold into slavery hey no buyer i'm free not only that this doesn't sound like an accurate description of the slave markets in the carolinas they were stealing and jacking and kidnapping africans left and right to fill up the the the so-called need of the colonialists and everywhere else sugar sugar plantations in jamaica and everywhere else to to say hey look we got to get more slaves man there was definitely buyers is my point this is not an accurate description of the transatlantic slave trade now let me show you how the rendering that you will offer yourselves for sale is better that shows how destitute and pathetic and sad uh they're gonna be right they're gonna be in this condition and to make matters worse people won't even want to buy them now some of this is fulfilled in some texts like josephus and some other places where it talks about israelites selling themselves into slavery and the prices were super cheap it seems like a fulfillment of this but it is that is sort of an extra biblical thing but even from the bible you can tell israelites were in egypt because uh during the days of jeremiah god speaks to jeremiah about going into egypt with the other israelites so this shows even during the days of jeremiah there were israelites already going into egypt and so you so that's an indication of maybe that one being fulfilled as well but right uh 68 is the key verse but it's not the only one they'll look at where it says you'll be the the you'll be the borrower not the lender that uh people are gonna take your women all kinds of stuff like that right and they'll and they'll point to different things but there's a lot of things they can't point to and that are problematic for them for example it says the king that you set over you will also be brought into captivity with you what versus that uh well let me look i always lose track of the verse i always have to do control f and look for king because that because that happened of course um during the days with israel right that actually happened but but but you don't need to go to but the question is okay where did that happen is it 36 let me see 28 36 but yes it is it will bring you and your king whom you set over you to a nation that neither you nor your father's have known so who is the king over all the israelites in west africa that question doesn't even make sense there's multiple different types of ethnicities who are kidnapped people from mali people from various kingdoms towards the end of the transatlantic safety they even started getting more into the interior it wasn't even just there on on the coast and so uh there is no king to speak of that was set up but that did happen during the very ending of the of the days of judah that did happen that even the kings themselves were into captivity in fact remember the king who's they killed us off his sons and they poked out his own eyes they gouge out his own eyes i mean this literally happened what is described here right now some of them will say well here's this random guy who was a african king they'll just bring up some name sometime right other but i'll say well he's the king of everybody right it still doesn't work or sometimes they'll say well we don't know who came over so sort of an agnostic position other ones mike who believe in reincarnation say this means king david or someone like that reincarnated who will be coming over with us because some of the hebrew sides believe reincarnation but there is no good answer for that and that's just one because the siege warfare is also another example there wasn't siege warfare committed by colonialists and imperialists and and slave traders against these west african kingdoms and if you say that when did siege warfare they'll say oh you're being racist you're acting like the africans didn't have any kings and buildings and and and high walls of no no one's saying that just saying siege warfare is not what happened you know for example where it did and so then they'll say well not all the curses have to happen every time i say oh okay so how many of them do have to happen you see it it keeps on changing to where it's like how does this really describe the transatlantic slave trade then when you have a lot of stuff that didn't even happen at the time but it's once you start asking those questions it becomes problematic yeah yeah so it it's um i i hate to put it this way uh but those who were those who were buying into this they read deuteronomy 28 they hear these connections and then they become part of the movement and they think i'm a hebrew israelite like you're you're being punished for not paying attention to scripture when you fall for this because when you do examine it thoughtfully you just just read you don't need special texts you don't need like a lexicon for this like you just read it carefully you look at it in context you see even the prophets saying look all the curses have happened to us like past tense like later on the prophets mention these things and say they've already taken place so they're acknowledging this stuff's already happened people are suffering for not paying attention to the world to the word of god they're they're they're in pain because they're not giving place to scripture that scripture deserves you know amen so well mike a lot of this is really to be frank with you uh emotional and satisfying a deep emotional longing more than anything and that's the real power of it because it gives um especially somebody who whose dignity and has been denied and the the fact of the reality of them bearing the image of god has been denied in so many ways when we're talking about say in american context for example historically this flips that over and turns it around and makes it where hey actually we're the people of the book who this book is about and a lot of them come out on the other side saying not only are we better than the other nations you other nations can't even be saved anyway you're going to be in the kingdom only to serve us yeah so let's talk about that eschatology a little bit where this goes with eschatology so but first let me mention this that i think the gospel offers the right solution so the wrong solution is let's just flip who's being oppressed and who who's not and who's the oppressor let's just reverse roles and whereas the gospel goes out and says no no let's end this let's just end the idea of these oppressions and the separations there is no jew there is no gentile there's no slave no free in christ we're all one right we're all we're all part of the same brotherhood this is where paul like rips on peter publicly because he won't eat with the gentiles you're talking there's movement there's groups here where they won't uh they still won't do that which is why i figure they have to do something with paul but uh but yeah the unity there isn't in the gospel of christ that we're all made in the image of god and we're all redeemed through christ and we're grafted in okay so there's there's our unity but we're all one we're not still segmented in these different groups but um but there is an eschatology that i've i've cut glimpses of with the hebrew israelite movement can you tell us kind of some of the expectations they have and is it are there any expectations that are fairly unified across the groups almost all of them that i've heard have some type of ethnic stratification in the kingdom so they usually don't talk about heaven or something like that they tend to use just the phrase the kingdom and almost all of them believe in some kind of ethnic stratification and so there's levels of that there's ones that have an extreme hierarchy and there's some that sort of have a softer kinder gentler hierarchy so i'll give you an example of a kinder hierarchy there's a rather uh smart hebrew israelite who makes really good hip-hop music actually and it's pretty positive some of it sounds really christian to be frank with you and i i like him because he's from buffalo that's where my family uh came through when they when they went in new york so so but nonetheless he's confused on a lot of theology he says well that final relationship between the israelites him saying he's one of them and the gentiles will be kind of like the way the husband has authority over the wife it'll uh it'll be a kind of a of a gentle compassionate uh ruling over uh and that's not even really how i view complementarianism in the way he's describing it i don't think that's a good accurate complementarianism but that's he said some stuff like that then on the other side well somewhere in the middle is they're going to serve us but it's going to be a kind service where they're going to willingly do it and we're not going to be harsh masters we're going to be righteous we're not going to be like it was done in the antebellum slavery to us because we're going to be righteous so it's not going to be a harsh thing they're going to enjoy it because they're serving us they're serving god by serving us so this sort of a middle way on the far extreme mike is it's going to be brutal and uh i there's one guy named tahar who says i'm going to kick the that's his term for white people i'm going to kick their ass every day except for the sabbath i'm going to take a break from kicking their a and then start kicking their a again the next day after the sabbath and uh sometimes they do these videos these kinds of guys who believe in a harsh and brutal slavery for all eternity yeah uh they'll do these videos where they'll get a non-israelite in their terminology to bow down to them and kiss their boots or lick the bottom of their shoe right and in those videos yeah they'll sometimes make jokes about it and they'll say you're a good righteous white man you're a good righteous asian i i'm going to pray the most high i get you in the kingdom and instead of only instead of a thousand lashes i'm only going to give you 900. i'm not kidding by the way this is the kind of thing they'll say and they'll say you know vocab for example vocab you better hope you're one of us because if not we're going to be kicking your a all eternity and we're going to pass you around you know this is this is the stuff some of these these more extreme guys really say so they refer to it as a brutal kind of slavery and i even go with that mic i'll say okay so is your slaver gonna be righteous according to the laws of the bible yes of course it is i'll say okay okay so you're gonna kick these butts and and africans and chinese and and japanese and indians east indians and all these other nations you're gonna be killing their butts for alternate right yeah yeah what happens if you uh break their break their jaw and their tooth comes out what are you going to do what do you mean what am i going to do well in the old testament law it says if you knock out the tooth of your slave you've got to let him go uh well i think that's just talking about a fellow israelite slave we're not going to be letting any of our slaves go also it's not it's yeah so i say oh so it's not according to the torah even your slavery that you have is not according to the torah right it's usually think about that so i go with a presupposition and then i'll ask him a question based upon that so if you knock out my tooth in the kingdom bro you got to let me go you know just to show them that the torah is really just a a source of out of context proofs to support their theology they're not actually trying to be consistent they're trying to make the bible consistent with their beliefs which is why it starts to be all weird um so percentage-wise if you have an idea of this are is it like equally split or as far as the sort of the the nice version of of bondage or slavery versus the middle ground versus the extreme is it what's the uh what's the spectrum as far as how many people in the hebrew israelite movement are in one of those camps i think more are probably on the kinder gentler side the thing is there they have a smaller voice because they're not as vocal out on the corners and so they're not sort of the vanguard in a way but i think they're probably a majority but here's the thing mike i'm i'm being very charitable now they'll say oh no vocab vocab is on another channel to slander us vocab loves to go to all these white apologists and slander us all over that's vocab's mission in life because he's a paid jesuit agent and he's probably a crypto jew and i bet this guy's jewish too he's talking to just look at him look at the hand signal he just made dude look at that handle freeze frame right there circle it that guy's letting you know he's part of it right yeah yeah so this is what really really matters what really matters is that i'm white that's what that's all that really matters here yeah so the but here's the thing even the ones i'm being charitable because even the ones who are a little nicer like israel of god i've mentioned them somewhat favorably a number of times throughout this i was in one of their services once because they'll let me attend as a guest and i went once and uh the main guy who i've met in person and is was very kind to me in person he's very warm and i i really have respect for him it's just the theology is really off mike he said now let's go to isaiah 14. let's look at isaiah 14 here and let's read that let's read isaiah 14 this is about us look at this look what this says it says strangers will be joined to them and they shall cleave to the house of jacob verse 2 says people shall take them and bring them to their place and the house of israel shall possess them in the land of the lord for servants and handmaids and they shall take them captives who kept as they were and they shall rule over their presses and then he stops and he says you know i'd really like to have some servants and handmaids wouldn't you amen amen and so they even the kinder nicer ones think that part of the recompense of non-israelite peoples and it's not just white folks people focus on white folks but remember they've got all kinds of other people who are other nations as well like i mentioned japanese chinese arab all those as well are gentiles to them they're going to serve them as well so their picture is they're going to be basically weighted on hand and foot for all eternity and i had one guy the last thing i'll say captain zazariak he said this to me after quoting this verse he said vocab this is this is why i want africans and white people in the kingdom because i'm not i'm not picking no grapes myself and vocab you're going to want to make my coffee and bring it to me you know why because you're going to want to live and not die and so that's sort of the extreme version but even the nice version israel of god still has this picture of being weighted on hand and foot so really mike their vision of the afterlife is just this earth during antebellum slavery flipped over upside down just permanent and it's right because this time the right people are on top a lot of them don't even think uh what was done in slavery is objectively wrong it's just the wrong group was doing it to the wrong group do you see i'm saying yeah it becomes a uh racial elitism entitled supremacy it's it's like black supremacy is what it sounds like well they'll say israelite supremacy because remember a lot of these groups will take uh hispanic and native american they'll say oh black's a slur we're blacks of color what that's not well i'm just i'm just saying i i refer to it what you just said i usually say i use the term ethnic hierarchy yeah i i call it ethnic hierarchy and uh they laugh at the term oh he's trying to use those seminary words but then then when they describe it they basically agree yeah there isn't hierarchy so it's more nuanced than just saying black supremacy there's definitely more nuance than that although it might look like that in many cases but um but in the end this is antithetical to the gospel this is the opposite of yes scripture says you know in the book of acts we see well people don't track this in the book of acts it's beautiful it's this whole idea of like exactly how did the gentiles fit in and then finding that they're full partakers that they they fully partake and we're just brothers and sisters that we're all one in christ ephesians where it talks about the middle wall of separation being the separation between jew gentile and how that has been taken down and that we're all we're all unified we're all one and then we're all co-heirs we all inherit together equally male female jew gentile slave barbarian all this stuff we inherit the glorious kingdom in christ um this is exactly yeah it's beautiful it's it's a glorious glorious message but it's it's the opposite of what we're hearing here or with anybody who leans towards some kind of ethnic supremacy type model of how they view their religious commitments yeah yeah some of them say ephesian 2 was about the rejoining of the north and the south kingdom has nothing to do with the gentiles some of them say yeah i mean i i get why they would have to say that because the text refused their theology it's just exactly it's just that they can't they can't say that and be right it's just no no exactly three differences too guys you don't need help on this yeah a lot of them say that uh when james uh quoted the old testament in acts chapter 15 during that council a lot of them say he went off that he simply made a mistake because if you read james's speech and the way he utilizes the old testament quotation it's clearly in favor of gentile inclusion into this larger body of christ and um it's it's an interesting thing and one way to really determine if let's say you got a hebrews life friend and let's say oh i'm not down with that hate that vocab guy tries to make us all sound like that that'd be like if i said are all christians part of the kkk it's really unfair i'm not like that praise god i hope so now i hope he's got a right view of the gospel i hope she's got a right view gospel here's the thing to ask can i ask you something about your theology do you think it's more important to be in israel or that it's more important to be in christ which one is more important to be a descendant uh ethnically of abraham or a descendant of faith of abraham galatians 3 if they pause and meander or say both are equal you're dealing with someone who's unbalanced you're dealing with someone who so assuming they're right about their presupposition for a second mic is what you're doing there and you're trying to find out i've and almost all of them meander and end up and some will just say it's more important to be in israel because you don't have the opportunity to be in christ unless you're in israel first so it just shows immediately christ is denigrated to just basically a guy who kept the law like we're going to keep the law too and that's it yeah oh man it yeah and i now on the note of the law i just want to mention to to my viewers i've got a series on the hebrew roots movement very different movement but they do keep the law and they think that we're all supposed to keep the law today and i deal with a lot of their talking points and theology and the rhetoric as well so i i'll put a link down below to that later on for people who are interested because a lot of the same stuff will parallel if you get into the discussion of how the law applies today but um vocab maybe you and you could redirect this if you have something you think we need to discuss but but i was thinking at this point maybe you could talk about like specific tactics on how to reach somebody who's part of this movement like what what would you say we should say to them how should we approach them how how might we break through and perhaps some of them are watching this right now they'll listen and consider the things that you're saying i hope so a key is um the supremacy of christ versus the supremacy of any ethnic group and if you just keep on focusing on christ and trying to point them to christ i think it's a healthy uh medicine to what they're hearing by a lot of their teachers every day and uh let me let me tell you guys listen if they if you're talking about hebrews light and it starts getting into these like political racial ethnic and the next thing you know you're arguing about um uh whether you think the latest cop killing was justified or not i'm not saying there's no place for that but i'm saying watch out for that territory because you're no longer really focused on the gospel and you know are you an expert in all those areas i don't claim to be an expert in all those areas right so i'll say hey i don't i don't know let me just approach that with a humble attitude but i this this i do know is important and it's very difficult a lot of times to redirect in a general way the conversation back to jesus because a lot of times there's not a very jesus centered view here so that's one key thing watch out for the land mines and pitfalls and you got to have some thick skin but the biblical way to say it mike is the fruit of the spirit not that we all display it all the time but where there's patience and peace and long suffering and gentleness and kindness and self-control right there and the the core of who you are because the spirit's working and rely upon that and when do you get to see if you're patient it's in the midst of turmoil right how do you know if someone's gentle it's in the midst of those situations my point is a lot of hebrews lights god bless their soul and i'm not saying this in a mocking way they're casually racist without even recognizing it so they might say some off-handed things and you just gotta put that aside i i just to me you can't focus on every slight that they give and everything that they are gonna say right because they're gonna do that they're gonna say well listen the bible is not even meant for you anyway so it's not your book so you don't have any business telling me about it just kind of ignore go over and just focus back on the scripture itself because that's where the power is hebrews 4 12 second timothy 3 16. and you gotta you gotta you gotta watch out there's a thousand pitfalls they'll get you on just because the way hebrews lights sort of process things and you just got to say let me focus on the gospel let me focus on god let me go over here and uh here's the good thing about talking to hebrews lights though mike is a christian gets a chance to see better the relationship of the old and new testament and how christ is the yes and amen and all of us can do better on that and when we read the new testament it's just filled with all these connections to the old and none of us know them all and they're all beautiful so instead of just getting frustrated when you talk to hebrews like because let's say it's at your job it's a long-term relationship it's not out on the corner with a camera or whatever right you're talking to them day by day it can feel very frustrating and very taxing and very difficult just say this is god's way for me to learn the old testament connections to the new better and how christ fulfills them and guess what i'm a christian i love the bible and i love jesus so i'm excited about that so even if he insults me i'm okay with that because i want to see how jesus fulfills the law better and god can use the hebrews light in your life to better do that so guess what it's also about your sanctification i really do believe these things because the church doesn't need to ride through the rise of the occasion because sometimes the hebrews likes have some good points there's a lot of bad churches out there mike and there's been a lot of racism where the church has either been silent on it or uh been down with it now i don't mean the black church obviously i mean the mainstream church this has happened and so there's there there's some valid points sometimes they'll make that doesn't mean the solution is right though right and so i think it's good for us to learn that and go and um and uh just take the challenge and love everyone just take the challenge and love and see what happens yeah so okay um on this what are some like specific angles you you like topics you want to bring up in discussion with someone that's part of the hebrew israelites like you're like thinking here's an issue i want to bring up here's an issue i want to bring up things that you'd like to talk about as opposed to the things that you want to let just pass pass by and not comment on right um how how important is it or has it ever been to be a blood israelite in the first place that's that's one thing and so what there's there's a lot of ways to approach that but to me that's important because i think it can kind of take away um the supremacy they put upon this newly discovered revelation and and some ways you can do that is you can say well let's look at examples of of of non-israelites um that god saved or used you know uh think about this ladies and gentlemen everyone prior to abraham they're not israelites you know so if job is prior but obviously adam noah you know this is before that uh methuselah enoch you know that's that's important to understand uh and then of course you have abraham so he is called out he is chosen and you go on but then with in the story of his descendants you have folks who are clearly portrayed in a favorable light to say the least there's a whole book called ruth ruth is a moabitis she is a moabitis right and and look what she says your god will be my god and your people will be my people and there she is genealogy of christ you know yeah so even jesus himself is not a pure israelite you see you excellent exactly the assyrians jonah was sent to nineveh here you have uh this this thing that's supposed to be fulfilled where israel's supposed to be a light into the nations and uh jonah is called not even to his own people to to an enemy group of people to go and say repent and god gives them grace and mercy there and he says look joanie you need to care about them the way i care about them that doesn't seem like something an ethnocentric god in the way that they view it doesn't seem like something he would do right uh rahab and her family that were saved during remember when they went in the canaanite woman there in matthew 15. the proselytes at acts chapter two it literally says proselytes the philippian jailer there's no indication he was a jew lydia in acts chapter 16 cornelius acts chapter 10 of the italian band right uh he might even been a tenor bad joke but you look and you see cornelius gentile you have the ethiopian in acts chapter nine with philip right you have the roman centurion that jesus dealt with you have the the um the samaritan in acts chapter 8. you have uh the greeks that are mentioned in acts chapter 11. and most of the audience that the new testament letters are written to is a mixed audience and you can even tell by some of the ways things are worded and the things are spoken and then you go to the end of the book in revelation chapter 7 and what is revelation chapter 7 verse 9 for example i believe it is what does it say about that in vision of god's people everybody it says there was a vast multitude from every nation tribe people and language which no one could number standing before the throne and before the lamb they were clothed in white robes with palm branches in their hands it's a multi-ethnic throng worshiping jesus christ right and so i think it's important for people to see the global vision because they'll say well look these promises were given to god's descendants yes the promise is fulfilled and who you got to go to galatians to see it's through jesus but even the abrahamic covenant here's the last thing i'll say even abraham will come i think it's really important for people to see it was to do what to bless the families of the earth or to bless all nations or all peoples depending on what translation used when god first comes to abraham it's what he it's part of what he says why he's going to do through him so it's very important for people to see god always has this grand vision and it's fulfilled in christ and it's going to be fulfilled in that final picture of the kingdom with this all tribes all nations all people all language and that's what the new testament church is supposed to be doing in the meantime connected directly to matthew 28 go to all nations because he recites a lot of them have to make that go to the israelites in all nations but that's not what it says right all ethnos and so i just think that grand vision of what god's intention to do through israel is important to see and that's why you see all these people included in and we haven't even covered them all caleb of joshua and caleb he's not an israelite now he eventually gets engrafted into judah but he's what's called a canozite remember uriah he's a hittite fighting in david's army more righteous than david himself now this is not a good example doe egg the edomite one of saul's guys because he was kind of a bad guy but it shows how there it shows how uh they didn't have the understanding of the hebrew israelites and and and and jesus he gets in trouble because he says things like prophets had to go outside and heal lepers they had to go outside israel yeah they didn't like that because they knew what he was saying right yeah he's like here's a bunch of gentiles and then the next thing he does is he goes out and heals the gentile uh cast the demon out of this gentile woman exactly exactly so um and we haven't even covered the specific teaching passages where the issues of gentiles are brought up like didactically where it's like let's walk you through how gentiles relate to but you're just giving the examples and i think that that's powerful so you would actually it sounds like you wouldn't go down the road of let me prove to you that you don't have this hebrew ancestry that you think you have like you would instead say let me show you that this isn't the thing this isn't what what we should focus on well so here's the thing mike yes i'm saying that in theory but the challenge becomes in practice they are so obsessed with this newly discovered ethnic identity they think they possess that it almost becomes impossible not to it sometimes and so i've tried to learn little things to try to bat it away and get back to the topic at hand becomes very difficult and so sometimes let's say it's in a more combative setting because i deal with some of their their apologies so i'm not talking about your friend at work or your cousin who turns i'm talking about a guy who's leading other people into captivity basically through bad doctrine into bondage into slavery right i i'll deal a little more differently with some of those guys i'll try to be friendly but if they start pushing stuff let's say we're trying to set up i was recently trying to set up a debate with a guy and he said well vocab i want to debate you on does being in does being an israelite matter right that's what he wanted to debate me on i said okay i'll debate you on that after we do a first debate where you prove that you are an israelite well it doesn't matter from an israelite because you know whether i am or not the bible i said no that that'll be the first thing so i have taken a stance when i deal with their apologist guys a little bit more where before they're gonna try to use this stuff or i try to say hey look gentiles too yeah i want them to but here's the thing no given person can go back all the way to jacob and prove their ethnicity on their dad's side even if you were pure all the way let's just hypothetically say which is by the way pretty much impossible you know that's like 86 or something generations removed from jacob where now nobody can do that right and so they'll say well i'm gonna prove in general black americans or something like that but see that doesn't say anything about you and you're basing your whole future and everything out the fact you're an israelite and other people aren't and yet you have no real way to prove that you are an israelite and they get the problem is they can become very upset because let me tell you what's happening there and you got to try to do it in a gentle but also firm way mike it's like getting and knocking down idols this is their new idol they worship at the feet of regardless of what they say and you're you're you're endangering that and they can become very hostile at that point i'm not saying everybody but it you'll see the fangs come out with some of these especially their apologist guys yeah which makes sense because they see there as being like uh ethnic superiority is part of god's created order and his his chosen way for humans interact and they're part of the superior ethnicity and you come and you say no you're not which means they're what they're down here now right now they're part of the inferior ethnicity which is of course a category we reject and biblically we should reject but at least i think in their framework when you say you're not really an israelite it seems like if they if they believe that then they suddenly become inferior um yeah and i just imagine this would create a it's weird because those who are who tend to be puffed up or have also like equally deep insecurities okay when you feel like you're the superiors and all this it's it's jarring to have somebody else be as intelligent as you or as as as feel like they're entitled to as much as you are so you know in in a in another approach you could say yeah let's first tackle whether this whole superior thing even matters which is why you say hey how much does it matter to be an israelite in the first place in christ and and then you you sort of you reframe it then all of a sudden they're not committed they don't need to be israelites to have all this value and have this future and have this hope and have this these promises from god and so then they're more open hopefully to saying yeah okay this isn't historically accurate but it doesn't matter that much either yeah galatians the book of galatians is is is so important every single chapter in there you know paul uh defines the heavenly city as uh something different than just this he redefines zion as the heavenly city versus just a spot on the map in israel when you look at what he talks about it he he does so much there where all the things that they would hold on to are shown to to have a greater deeper significance about the seed of abraham what that means about what it means to be in christ and about what it means to be a true descendant of abraham because the bible does say we as christians are descendants of abraham remember that's the old song mike father abraham admit that's the song have you ever wondered about that that song is more right than a lot of hebrews like theology because it's saying we're we're pat we're we're following the pattern of his faith we have exactly true we're not jesus yeah and that's what we do yes that's the true son or daughter of abraham and the reason we know is because in galatians it says those who are of christ are of abraham's seed that's that's the real thing it's not um some ethnic designation that you can't even demonstrate anyway and titus 3 9 says don't get caught up in endless genealogies and yet these guys carry around a genealogy chart with them yeah you know and so and so uh we look that there's just really uh uh off-balance theology here all right hey tell us explain this to us the hebrew okay so i i forgot i wanted to talk about this but they oh yeah yeah within the black hebrew israelites is some of the most strange and hilarious impressions of hebrew that i've heard could you explain what's going on there like they have their own version of hebrew right only the one westers do oh okay only the one westers do so it's called la shawan quidash and la shawan quidash is a essentially an invented dialect of hebrew where they basically claim that all the modern vowels excuse me are incorrect and so the vowels um which were added later as far as the the the markings were added later to because back then they would be supplied by the speaker because the speaker knew just by looking at the consonants and the passage they still do that in modern hebrew yeah yeah so now you have the little vowel markers they basically say those are all wrong right excuse me i got my italian soda and uh it's it's a okay so so so what they do is they basically turn them all into the ah sound with a few exceptions so even in the term uh which means holy or pure tongue la shawn quidosh that's what it means you see like you would normally have kadesh or kadosh it's kadash and so lion becomes arya and uh you have their names they choose is tazadaki you see that's what all the rise israel which is a chant they chant it's kwam yasharala and they basically just make everything the ah sound and so jesus's name is yahweh shai and uh the the godzilla as opposed to it well what most people would think correct correctly yeshua yeah so it's yeah yeah yeah so you see that there's some kind of could be that i sound i'm speaking english transliteration there and so they would say that the name of god is yahuwah but this only is the one westers if you went and talked to um another group of hebrews lights let's say um but i'll just i'll go with israel of god again they would say we don't hold halashwa in quash we don't think that that's accurate or right so they basically want to engage in a more uh standard understanding of hebrew and so when you hear them pronounce it it's just a way that they um sort of have created a way where you can't understand what they're saying and they're also discounting uh what they call yiddish so they a lot of them call modern hebrew yiddish but yiddish actually is a different thing than modern hebrew right and but they'll just dust it off as oh that's that so if you say yahweh they'll be like that's not their real name it's yahuwah and so a lot of them even begin their videos they'll say um they'll say you know hashem they do like they'll do like a little chant in la chuan quirosho times and when someone kisses their boot they'll say kwam yasharala but uh it's not really um it's not historically based i'll just put it that way and um it doesn't really do much except make them sound odd they don't really get much out of it yeah but it also i think circles the wagons more because we have like you know you learn this way of saying these things you learn these sort of key phrases and it's kind of like a password that shows that you're really part of the in group you're one of the trusted ones and then everybody else is it increases the conspiratorial attitude towards actual people who speak hebrew or who might come in and bring a scholarly view on something it's like no no we've got our own version of everything now yeah yeah uh there's a little article there's a couple articles you can find an example would be you know when you hear it like for example like genesis 1 1 which would be like bereshit bharat elohim or something like that you know it just sounds different but yeah it kind of creates a little code but none of them are even fluent in it what i mean is no one has ever been able to uh have a discussion in la shawn quidosh and whenever you hear them try to use it in an actual sentence and and i have a friend of boo calmer who who is more linguistically advanced than i am he shows how they're using english syntax when they do their la shawn quidosh and so their pronunciation is the stylized pronunciation but their syntax is all anglicized and so it does a lot of times it doesn't make sense what they're saying because there is no one who can say to you where's the bathroom in la shawn quidosh and it's funny sometimes they'll put out these lexicons and they'll have like how to say crocodile or television and la shawon quidosh and it's like silly because clearly it's anachronistic like why do you have television but uh but uh it's kind of a way to show you're down with the old school too because some of the groups are starting to get away from it [Music] all right well what are final words final words you'd have for the audience for anybody who's listening that might be part of the hebrew israelite movement um what's your what's your advice to them your counsel to them well i would like to see more christians engage them on the street i know it's not for everybody and i know it can be a harrowing experience but i mean i just think we should learn how to do this and and uh better you talking to them than an unsuspecting person they're gonna catch off guard and i do wish more christians would say okay lord help me in this situation one day i may be persecuted for my faith and go before kings and rulers i can handle talking to these guys yeah but i know everyone's not going to do that and i know it could be difficult okay but um just just um i would encourage people to to try to do it you know when you see someone wearing the fringes at walgreens you know ask them are you a hebrew is a light you know you might see their fringes you might you might think just try to find opportunities and just ask questions about their theology and what they believe and kind of learn and grow with them and so i just really want people to have an openness and not to minimize and realize you know souls are at stake i really hope people can do and you'll grow in the process another thing i would say is hey get my book i got a little book it's called barack obama versus the blacky bisolites it's it's not about obama it's just a title to make you remember it but it's a little primer it won't answer all your questions but it'll help you and it's on amazon and get it so great they can get that i'll put a link down below to that on amazon as well as just i really like your counsel of uh bring it back to jesus bring it back to jesus that this to me seems like it seems like reading jesus in context is like an antidote to a lot of the things that i'm hearing um and then any verse that is used stop slow down look at it in context unpack it and then and then you're slowly disarming all of the talking points as you do that but um but yeah uh vocab i have links to your content down below for people if you guys want to check out vocab's content down below you can he's street apologist uh but he's also you're part of a group of guys i mean loosely connected to a whole bunch of guys that are doing similar types of things like that so if you guys are interested maybe even interested in you want to do more apologetics like connect with these guys like they're very open they're very friendly and they've got a lot of experience just doing this stuff so i want to see more christians out there you got your youtube channel i want to see more people doing content online and so if anybody's you're thinking about it why not give it a shot why not give it a shot just uh just do it for christ and not for youtube status because that's gonna ruin it yeah no i agree those are wise words yeah come out cattle come out on the street with us when we do go every time i take a a newer christian in the sense of they haven't been out there and they go talk to some hebrews lights or whatever if we go out on the street they always learn a lot and and we have good fellowship and uh i've seen a lot of people develop hearts for these guys even when they're not exactly kind to us people develop more of a heart by being kind of up close and personal and just kind of hearing and looking right there i think it can help if you're if you go in a in a in a right mindset now again you might see some videos where um you know this this is a very contextualized thing so there's sometimes you know you're you're trying to figure out what's the right way to approach this context because they put you in very tricky situations and you know you may not always deal with it right but uh we still got to step out there because ultimately it's the holy spirit and so it's not our perfection and our answers and just be willing and learn as you go so i'm going to give you the opportunity to talk about it phoenix i'm in phoenix so if you guys are in phoenix area maybe you could hook up with vocab that'd be awesome and uh they could come out and meet us when we go to san diego again too that's right i want to next time you guys come to san diego i want to come down and and see it's not too far from me so we'll see but don't tell anybody yeah shh all right all right y'all uh thank you guys so much for joining and thank you vocab for being part of this uh the next time i'm streaming is um friday friday for the q a i've got some other things i'm working on and producing in fact here's a little thing i i always do this and i shouldn't do this vocab this is a lesson i never listened to but um i want to do a video dealing with like the theology of like white supremacy like how but i'm looking to find like someone who seriously tries to use the bible to support not just talking points right where they throw out ridiculous statements but like they really a real smart person really tries to use the bible to support their white supremacy and i have not been able to find it and so i even reached out to a few scholars scholars who've written on the kkk and said help me find somebody in the movement who or even in the past who like tried to really get the theology going and i just had a scholar reach back to me today this morning and she's like yeah um nobody did like they just have like talking points here and there but no one that they know of dug deep in so i'm still looking and it's led me to look into the christian identity movement which is kind of like a modern white supremacist thing so if i can find that or if somebody knows it you can go to my website biblethinker.org and send me a link i do not want a preacher who's white supremacist i want someone who like seriously looks at the bible and they're smart and they actually they kind of make it look like the bible supports their racism like i'm looking for that so i can refute it i'd like to do that video i just haven't found it it's always the worst most janky talking points things out of context so you got thoughts on that vocab well i don't know if these guys would suit your bill but there are the anglo israelites the anglers is it like the mirror image of the uh hebrew israelites yeah if you notice see the tribes asher is ireland dan is the danes and the celts you know oh wow i'm asher oh that's so cool yeah so yeah i don't i don't see italy on here but so you've got um the angular israelites who were actually pretty big about almost a century before the hebrews lights but they've really died out in popularity but there's still some angle israelites around and they use the bible in history to try to demonstrate they're the real israelites and a lot of them uh have some sort of latent white supremacist ideas as well and the christian identity movement has taken some of their theology and co-opted into their movement in the modern era yeah i think i think i'm going to pursue the christian identity thing because i i don't know how many anglo israelites are actually around but uh well this guy has a youtube channel yar davidi he's already write books um yeah i don't know anyways yeah i'll be interested to see what you come up with mike yeah yeah i mean i i just want honestly legitimately i want people who really do think that their racism is supported in scripture to see a good substantive response that takes it on the face deals with it walks through it and then refutes it so we'll see how it goes but uh that's about it that might be months out i don't have any idea i just started the very beginning stages of looking for content for that oh the kinites the chemists the chemist have you heard about them so it's there's a there's a group of of folks and you can sometimes run into an online they're called chemists i think it's k-e-n-i-s-t but i'm but uh i don't know of any prominent ones but in certain message boards they they pop up a lot but but um it's weird mike i think a lot of them are in the far extreme of the theonimus reformed world these canites and i don't know a lot about them but i know they're a prominent or they're they're a real thing within certain sectors of like far kind of reformed the theonimus type circles is my understanding if i'm saying something wrong someone correct me i'm still learning about the kidnites but they you do run into them from what i've heard so maybe look up uh am i saying can i it's kindest i'm i think i'm saying it wrong it's chemists but but it's a real thing maybe maybe one of them yeah i don't know google just thinks i'm meant to type dentists you know what let me send you some stuff on that i'm sorry yeah yeah send it to me check it out all right um thanks vocab thanks again thank everybody for being joining live i'm glad you guys were able to do this uh this was delayed because i have my internet issues but we got it back on track and it's been a long time coming so thanks vocab you guys can check him out down below if you've got nothing else to do go check out vocab malone's content see what you think and uh we don't agree on everything i'm not endorsing everything he says he doesn't endorse everything i say we're brothers in christ and we agree on the essentials so we got that

Channel: Mike Winger

Views: 119,695

Rating: 4.5061383 out of 5

Keywords: mike winger, vocab malone, black hebrew israelites, BHI, who are the black hebrew israelites, what do the hebrew Israelites believe, The religious beliefs of the black hebrew israelites

Id: 1VG_RfqzPVk

Length: 98min 45sec (5925 seconds)

Published: Mon May 10 2021