disproving pre-tribulation rapture: With Dr. Craig Keener

you know the video you're about to watch is a production from our ministry remnant Radio is a theology broadcast we broadcast every Monday night 8:30 p.m. Central Standard Time here on YouTube we have different pastors teachers from different churches and denominations coming on the show to that discuss a wide range of theological topics many of our guests we agree with and many of our guests we disagree with but our goal is to understand God's Word so that we can then understand the God who has given us his word so we hope that you enjoy this conversation we hope it's been a benefit to you if you do enjoy this video and want to continue to help us produce content like this we'd asked you go down into the description of the video and donate there's a description link there in the video and it would help us continue producing content just like this be blessed hey guys Josh Lewis remnant radio we're talking about the tribulation and eschatology and what would be a more accurate view of the eschatological system those big words yeah in times I would like to though speak just briefly to maybe some of the trolls out there who were disliking the video this is a first we have three people dislike the video before it started dislikes like how could you dislike the intro video you know I thought I kind of get it bigger because like when we talk about end times it gets so confusing and people get like so heated and mad at each other and I could imagine maybe maybe some people think that's what this is about but if you watched rim their radio you know that's not what we're not about like you know beating each other over the head with the Bible because my views right we have people of all different person you just heard Josh on the intro videos say this and so we actually want to get a pre-trib rapture person come in and you know at probably the next month and share from the other side so so so when we talk about this we say like hey we want to dialogue with different positions what are tell us some of the interviews we've had just in the last couple weeks oh man we've had some great ones last week Matt Chandler the American gospel and moralistic therapeutic deism a huge one and it's getting a lot of traction with people we also had Doug Wilson just really cool he explored postmillennialism another eschatological perspective end times perspective and and really cool just love the hope that he brought we had somebody else named Tim Ross he's he's kind of local but he has a lot of influence here and the dallas-fort Worth area and and he shared about the Holy Spirit man it was just a rich time coming up next week we have you're not gonna want to miss its Eric Metaxas and he wrote an incredible biography on Martin Luther and it just really helped me understand to greater depth just the Protestant Reformation and what really happened there and what Luther had to go through really powerful book we're going to talk about Martin Luther and Protestantism and then and in that same week it's the same week right next next week Frederika Matthews green into your right Eric Metaxas yeah we got in T right talking about the new heavens and the new earth and and so it's gonna be really powerful and and Frederico Matthews green so is her second time on the show in the last month but so many of you were saying bring her back bring her back we were bringing her back and it's gonna be good so when you guys respond hey this is who we want to listen to we we we we we respond with your input we care about you we do we like you really great stuff I'm looking forward to you today's episode what you guys don't know is we've actually taped this episode before and we had a technological remnant radio had a technological problem so uh without further ado I would love to turn it over to dr. Craig keener have you introduced yourself in your ministry for those who may be unfamiliar with you well I'm really glad to be on your program today because I understand you only have people back you like and you're properly for having me back again I really like you there's three dislikes for even before they could see me here anyway we're really excited about today's topic but but like I said tell us tell us a little about yourself and your ministry before we dive into this to the subject matter sure um I've written about thirty books whoa which is more books that I've read [Laughter] I'm sorry I'm sorry I definitely feel that that gap between education between you one of them is a little cartoon book but anyway okay 29 books not yeah 29 a half but most of them are more academic they're not I mean they're specialized for certain area of certain areas of studying detailed commentaries can be used by pastors or scholars or whatever both in just a few more popular level the IVP Bible background commentary is useful for people who just want bible background on that you know basic level you can keep it by your side when you're doing your devotions and you say how was this passage talking about or what what's this thing about the head coverings or what's this thing about you know the rich dragging the poor to court or you know different settings that you're not familiar with this can this can help with that it's based on a lot of years of just working through ancient literature and and so on and then there's also the love story of my wife and me impossible love which talks about her as a war refugee in Congo where she's from and that was yeah there was some scary times there but but those are on a the real basic level and then from there they go on up to have a revelation commentary with the NIV application series and academic John commentary with Baker academic for volume acts commentary with Baker academic Cambridge published a one-volume Acts commentary they just it just came out and Corinthians commentary and galatians commentary and anyway stuff like that ya know and and this makes you kind of an authority on this subject hope crews phone is not broken that's thought was so I'm curious when we're talking about this subject matter what is your eschatology I know last time we had you on the show you were saying like you know you're kind of undecided as far as the millennium and I'd love for you to kind of explain where you line up on your eschatology and I think that's really interesting to for someone who's written so many commentaries and has taught the Bible so faithfully that you are humble enough to say I'm not sure about some of this I think I'd be encouraging for our audience before we start getting into the stuff that we for sure don't believe in but that's so where do you line up eschatologically yeah yeah on the millennium I mean Eileen Eileen premillennial but I know the arguments for either side I mean I can argue it either way but I personally lean premillennial but I also personally recognize I could be personally wrong but anyway I know the arguments for either either that or a mill and not post mill but and I and I do believe that there will be a turning of the Jewish people at the end so but coming back to my eschatology centrally what I believe this and this is actually stressed in just about every passage of the New Testament that talks about the Lord coming back we we we are looking for him with hope we're looking and we should live holy lives we should live in readiness for his coming and we're uh yeah that's the that's the most essential focus focus of it okay so could you talk to us a little bit about the post tribulation 'el versus pre-tribulation 'el view and maybe even just in that context explain what this tribulation even is yeah no that's more than one question there but let me start by telling you the way I was trained in it Michael Brown and I co-wrote a book on this both of us were originally taught the pre-tribulation review that we would be raptured before the tribulation and of course you can see why that would be popular I mean who wouldn't wanted me in fact if we could be raptured before any tribulation that would be even better right raptured being just caught up going into heaven I'm getting to miss out on all these seals and trumpets and bowls of wrath being poured out on the earth yeah or if we could even yeah just as soon as that we're converted just go that would be anyway no no are you having technical difficulties with the camera no no all are you are you having technical T difficult go to the camera no I can see you but I can't see me but I guess that's alright you oh no no we're good we can see you just fine all right well I'm glad I'm glad you can see me because I don't know what would happen if if the Lord suddenly came back and we're left behind what a timing of the Lord it would be you know that's just like dr. Keener's got a truck he's gone oh oh he's fake left behind [Music] he told us before this video started he goes I didn't prep he submit all of his preparation I find that right trumpet sound but no I was originally taught that we would be raptured before the tribulation and you know I dutifully accepted that along with the other things they taught me but I noticed you know all the Bible verses I memorized for this didn't make the same sense as the Bible verses I was learning for other things when I would read them in context and so there came a time when they started reading like 40 chapters of the Bible a day to get through the New Testament every week or through the Bible once a month and I began to notice mmm and all these verses are out of context and eventually I'd be can persuaded no this isn't what the Bible's teaching that you know if you just read the Bible by itself the rapture and the Second Coming are both the same event there's no there's no distinction that's explicit in any text and if you hadn't been taught that there's a distinction you would just assume that the same thing and so a guest evangelist who was visiting the church you know my pastor was he was pre-tribulation but he didn't he didn't mind so he but but the guest evangelist this was his big thing so he took me aside and very patiently for for a few hours was taking me through all the diversity used to prove that the rapture would be before the tribulation and one by one I would say well let's look at these verses we look at him in context and none of them actually said that in fact you know all the texts about he can come at any moment or something like that you know the thief in the night all those texts if the context specifies any time at all it was always at the end of the age when every I would see him when you know the the wicked would be judged it was never before a tribulation and so you know but he he finally concluded by saying look who do you think you are I mean you were converted from a completely non-christian background just a few years ago but all men of God Jim Bakker Jimmy Swaggart this was like 1976 Jim Baker since changed his view but all men of God he said are our pre-tribulation and so I uh I said you know you're right I I can't disagree with all men of God so even though I don't see it in the text I will believe what you said but it was really hard for me it was like man this is so confusing you have to split verses in the middle and so on to make them come out this way and then finally I was visiting another congregation Haim no Christian Center in Canton Ohio where the the pastor was teaching on this he had studied with Walter Martin and some other people and he said no you guys may think I'm crazy but let me just tell you this is I'm gonna talk about the rapture and I was like oh here we go again he said nobody in all of church history up until 1830 believed that there would be a rapture before the tribulation and you know so Jim Baker a surgeon Baker he said Martin Luther John Wesley Augustine none of them I mean they held different views in the millennium some of them but none of them believed that there would be a rapture before the tribulation okay now I better explain what I mean by rapture before the tribulation because that was one of the other questions you asked yeah great okay so there are different views about what the tribulation in the Bible means but normally when people talk about a pre-tribulation review they're talking or a mid-tribulation review they're talking about a rapture becomes either seven years or three and a half years before the end of the age and that comes from you go back to the Book of Daniel that speaks of 70 periods of seven years and it speaks of the the final after an abomination of desolation a desecration of the temple there's going to be three and a half years and time times and half a time or forty-two months it's it's called a few different things and then in the New Testament it revisits that and in Revelation if you have up all the three and a half year periods it comes out to like ten and a half years probably they're all the same thing it's probably just three and a half years but if you take it literally in all the passages then that's considered a period of great tribulation it's three and a half years long or you know if you add two of them together it's seven years long and then many people have said especially since 1830 began to get popular then especially popular in the early 20th century the view that that that was just for Israel and God can't deal with Israel in the church at the same time Chris since 1948 people usually don't put it that way but God would therefore rapture the church before that period but okay if you if you look elsewhere I mean if you look in the New Testament in terms of be you know if we're speaking in terms of that period you have God's people being resurrected when the last enemy death is subdued you can't really have a light a later enemy than death so you can't have an antichrist afterwards we're resurrected also at the last trumpet Paul since you can't be having trumpets after the last one on the premillennial view were resurrected at the first resurrection which includes those who've been martyred during the Great Tribulation in Revelation 20 you don't have any expression of a catching up or resurrection of saints together in Revelation until you get there to that point or any description of Christ's coming except the you know introductory chapter one over seven where you know it says every eye will see him and it's talking about a future coming you you have a lot of texts to talk about his imminent return you know were to be looking for we're to be ready for his return but in context I mean it's the end of the age so second Peter chapter three the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night in which the heavens pass away with a great noise and the elements melt with fervent Heat and I could keep on going it was second Thessalonians chapter one we will receive rest from our tribulation at the same time the order of the Greek says at the same time that the wicked are judged will receive rest from a tribulation when the Lord with his mighty angels in flaming fire dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus and then he goes on in chapter 2 to speak of his coming and our gathering together to him and again in Greek it's probably tying this together that that won't happen until the man of lawlessness appears and the falling away happens so the man this would be a good question I think in this line here when you're talking about the return of Christ and the rapture of the church there is a word we used in the Latin Vulgate for the catching up that is the word raptured if I'm not mistaken but you don't see that being a separate event from the second coming pre-tribulation rapture teaches that there is a secret rapture Rick yeah your voice just went off your sound went off Sarika this this cable will be switched out before our evening show because it's done that's frustrating so so there is a in the pre-tribulation rapture position the church secretly gets raptured up into heaven and then Christ comes down at a later time to defeat his enemies in the crowd and the church comes down with him at that time your position is that yes there is a catching up you went out again that correct yeah yeah yeah first Thessalonians says we'll be caught up to meet him in the air we'll be caught up to meet the Lord in the air but the context of 1st Thessalonians 4 all the things that it says in that in that passage and going on into chapter 5 are the things that you have in Matthew chapter 24 talking about Jesus coming and the only coming that's mentioned in Matthew 24 is after the days of that tribulation when it comes he gathers together as chosen ones it comes with the clouds and both sound of a trumpet in both there's the angel or angels in both in the core second Thessalonians the the man of lawlessness probably corresponds to the desolating but in the temple response of the desolating sacrilege in Matthew 24:15 mark 13 14 you have oh no so the first Thessalonians 4 is also more explicit in terms of you know the this hope of when we're caught up to meet him in the air it'll be with the sound of a trumpet which Paul elsewhere says is the last trumpet again after the days of the tribulation in Matthew 24 and he says that when that happens he'll also descend with a loud shout in ancient literature usually when you have a shout conjoined with the trumpet it's it's a war cry so this is preparing for the last battle also going on into into chapter 5 where he speaks if the day of the Lord comes like a thief of night but you're not in darkness that you should be overtaken in other words you should be ready for this but but coming like a thief in the night Jesus says that again in the context of the second coming some people say well but in in first Thessalonians it doesn't say he touches down in the earth I'm not sure he actually says that in Matthew 24 either but but that but the I mean there's so many correspondences between the two which is you know one of the arguments that those of us who defend the reliability of of the Gospels we say look you know here is one of Paul's earliest letters and it confirms that these teachings were already in circulation well before the Gospels were written anyway yes I believe in one second coming one hope makes it a whole lot less complicated you need experts to interpret it for you just we're looking for Jesus to come back and when he comes back it's what's called an epiphany ax and appearance a glorious appearance and and yeah throughout so so the the shout that you mentioned I hadn't heard that before so that's a that's a battle cry and it it seems the reason I ask is I think the relevance for you in this is that when Jesus returns in the second coming that's that's tied in to Armageddon like Revelation 19 and and it is that kind of why you shared that or am i I'm sorry I'm trying to read your mind I suppose but the reason I ask is is I've heard pre-trib pre-tribulation 'el folks I've heard them say hey there's no mention of Armageddon here there's no mention of a final battle it just seems like hey we just get caught up into there with the Lord and weren't together with him so it seems like those who believe in a post tribulation Ulrich's tis about that this really is just a rapture it's not the second coming because there's no Armageddon tied to it but what I hear you saying is well hey this is a battle cry yeah there's a classic name for that kind of argument it's called an argument from Silence you don't have every detail in every passage but we sure have correspondents of a lot of details and and we don't have any passage that mentions the church being taken out before the tribulation now the single passage explicitly says that and you can say well that's that you're arguing from silence just because there's no passage it says that well that can be true in a sense the problem is that if you would you admit that there's that silence then you have to also recognize that you're definitely arguing from silence that there is such a catching up before the tribulation and you have to admit that you have no biblical evidence for it right okay so let's imagine that let's say I want our argue for the pre-tribulation rapture I say well hey when Jesus came the first time it's not like there's like this whole contingent of people saying hey our Messiah is gonna come twice first in mercy and then later in judgment and and a lot of these prophecies would seem to kind of merge them together the first and the second coming of Christ I mean take Isaiah chapter 11 it talks about Jesus being this sort of stump of I see in the Spirit of the Lord is a bonham and and it speaks of just seeming like his earthly ministry but then it flows straight into what occurs at his second coming and the lion and the lamb will lay down next to each other and like it's gonna be this unprecedented peace and all of this and so I can imagine somebody saying well hey this is just the way Biblical prophecy works it's not necessarily crystal clear and sometimes they can merge together distant occurrences in history within a single prophetic statement and and so that's just what's happening here so how would you respond to that well that's actually an argument that we can be used in support of a premillennial coming but in terms of a pre-tribulation coming at least with the Millennium you've got one passage you've got Revelation chapter 20 but regarding the tribulation there's not a single passage that says he's coming before the tribulation so you can say well maybe it'll happen we don't have any biblical evidence for it but maybe it will happen but if you didn't say that well maybe there'll be six or seven raptures you know I mean it's it's it's a speculation that we'll say okay well this this we believe this but why do you believe it if there's not a single text that actually says that and in the texts that are used for it I mean like first Thessalonians 1:10 and 5/9 the church will not go through the wrath of God I agree that stretch will not go through the wrath of God well what does that mean that the church will not rid of God 1st Thessalonians 1:10 and 5/9 I mean it's pretty much the same language as you have in Romans 5:9 which everybody applies to salvation we we are not destined for wrath but for salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ what the wrath were saved from if you look pretty much everywhere in Paul's writings I mean occasionally he'll speak of God's present wrath and you have that mule Testament too but especially the wrath of the second coming so help fire-type Ralph we won't go through that kind of wrath what what people will sometimes do they'll say well no this isn't referring to the wrath Paul means elsewhere this is referring to the wrath in the book of tribulation sorry the book of Revelation which is referring to the Great Tribulation the problem without argument is first of all the original audience of first Thessalonians could not flip over to the book of Revelation to see what Paul meant second been written yet I mean one of the Paul's first letters to the last probably the last book of the New Testament but they couldn't flip over to Revelation to see what he meant second if they could usually in the book of Revelation wrath refers to the judgment of the second coming not to the tribulation and finally if you're going to use the same Greek word that Paul used or gay rather than film us that always refers to judgment at the second coming in the book of Revelation never refers to the tribulation the the one passage you know in a few if you say well through moths we're gonna film us instead of Paul's word even there half those references refer to the judgment of the end so the Greek word in 2nd Thessalonians 1:4 wrath always refer first Thessalonians which anyway okay that it's always used to speak of second coming wrath it's never used to speak of something like tribulation allure earthly wrath is what you're saying in the book of Revelation right in the book of Revelation okay impulse impulse usage there's even less reason to think it's the relation so you you've said a couple times that there's no text in the New Testament where talks about a rapture where people are being caught up what about the frequent text that's being used Matthew 24 talking about the two men that are out in the field and then one is taken how do you interpret that text it tells you where they'll be taken one will be taken and the other will be left and it's in the context where it talks about in the days of Noah a few were saved the rest were taken to judgment and and and lest you think I'm I'm doing too much with context there I mean in Luke chapter 17 you have the same the same phrase where Jesus says one will be taken and another will be left and the disciples specifically asked for clarification they say where Lord Jesus says wherever the corpses that's where the vultures will gather that's not the rapture doesn't sound like heaven to me yeah okay well speaking of I was gonna say speaking of arguments from silence but not are typically very very kind to people that we disagree with we're very gracious and we would have a pre-trip person on here in our totally would but one of the things that that that we've we're talking about here is just I have such a hard time with this one because it's a it's a modern like he said before 1830 no one held this position like you have to like have these ridiculous maps drawn out and like have lengthy teachers with PhDs to it yeah do you like it personally I have I have leanings in certain directions on endtime stuff but I had really this one well I just don't know what I believe honestly I I do not lean toward a pre-trib rapture but I lean like historic Premal but like I'm not tempted by yeah I we're with you dr. keener we're looking we're just looking for his return I hope for sure but but you know I do think this is worth answering because I hear this so often hey the church is mentioned I can't remember something like 47 times in Revelation 1 through 3 and then in chapters 4 through you know 19 or 18 it's not mentioned at all and so what is the explanation for this gap well it's interesting in that he's addressing seven churches in Asia Minor that's where most of the references to the churches are in the chapters one two three you don't have the church mentioned on earth in the what we call the might call the tribulation chapters maybe if you haven't mentioned in heaven so does that mean the church got annihilated you say well there's saints in heaven they're Saints on earth too and the only way it mentions Saints getting to heaven in those chapters is that they died they got martyred it doesn't mention that being raptured to heaven and so it has to be read into the text people say well you know Revelation 4:1 the voice of a trumpet come up here they come up here has also said to John a couple other times in the book of Revelation the voice of a trumpet is in Revelation chapter 1 and verse 10 where where he hears a voice behind him on the Lord's Day and a trumpet so I mean revelation 4 it's not speaking to the church it's speaking to John inviting him to have visions of what's going on in heaven so it you again revelation you see Saints being persecuted in the earth Saints bearing witness for Jesus on earth and then the Saints being resurrected at the first resurrection in chapter 20 again this is in the premillennial view of course the amillennial view is yeah that would we should say that for another time because that will take more yeah so exposed to pick up before your you had said that anyone who gets to heaven in in the book of Revelation seems said they've gotten there by the the the violence of the sword right like they have been they have been sent there by the enemy but I'm curious any station yeah yeah I'm curious how you understand interpret Revelation chapter 310 this is a text that frequently as used to say hey we're not actually going to be in during that trial and in Christ is gonna keep us because you've kept his word you're gonna keep you from the hour of trial what would you do with Revelation 3:10 yeah actually that's one of the better ones if if I were pre-trib I would appeal to that the problem is the context to the rest of the book of Revelation is God protecting people from his judgments revelation 7 in the reseals people protects them and so on but in terms of taking out we don't see that in Revelation so what does he mean I'll keep you from this hour of testing the same words appeared together only one other place in the New Testament which also happens to be Jesus speaking and John recording that's in John chapter 17 verse 15 the Greek words are tera om keep you from and in John 17:15 Jesus says father I pray not that you would take them out of the world but rather that you would keep them from the evil one so specifically keep from there does not mean take out of it means protect from while you hear and that's what we see in the book of Revelation okay I just have a practical question so in your view the Second Coming occurs were caught up in the sky and the clouds with Jesus and there's a gazillion angels and saints and you know we're high five and st. Paul up in the sky but then like 17 seconds later we're on the earth so I mean is this like you know a six flags or I like like like what is what is that about like that's so weird right just we're going up and we're going down whereas you know a pre-trib rapture person says hey it kind of makes sense we go up we stay up there for seven years then we come back down why the yo-yo so practical question you know when in antiquity and using the Greek language they spoke of different levels of heaven in a higher level was ether air as a lower level we were gathered to meet him in the air so it's not in the the highest heaven we meet him on his way down in fact the wording that's used normally means that doesn't always mean that but that's the what it means everywhere else in the New Testament where it says it's you know will meet the Lord so shall we ever be with him the it's the Greek word up and TASIS for meeting and normally it means you're meeting somebody on their way so if a king or a dignitary was coming to a city and this a word that was often used for that was a parasya for their visit which is a word that is only coming correct like the coming of the Lord was coming yet it can have other translations in other contexts but if there's a power SIA then going out to meet him the oppan TASIS means we become his escort on the rest of his way he doesn't he doesn't meet us halfway and then turn around and go back to heaven we meet him on his way down when the kingdom of this world becomes the kingdom of our God and of his christ and he will reign forever and ever it's it's not it's not a secret rapture it's not something that you know nobody nobody recognizes when it happens when he comes that's the Blessed hope the glorious appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ Titus says every eye will see him he's gonna judge the nation's we will be publicly vindicated second thessalonians chapter chapter one this will happen when he comes to be glorified in his Saints on that day amen okay so a slight shift here I want to come back to something we were talking about a little bit earlier you went into Daniel chapter 9 and as you were talking about that you touched on a hermeneutic principle that is you know do we interpret these texts to Israel in the Old Testament as though hey this is only to Israel for instance Daniel chapter 9 Daniel was told hey these this these words the words of this prophecy pertain to you and your people or take Jeremiah chapter 30 it talks about a time of Jacob's trouble which most people understand to be the time of Great Tribulation and so the fact that that tribulation is applied to Jacob and and in days like Daniel chapter 9 seems to apply to Israel a person a pre-trib rapture person what's really behind all of this is the interpretive principle that like hey what was said to Israel was for Israel what side of the church is for the church and we need to maintain these distinctions you know of course what we call dispensationalism so can you speak into that and maybe why you don't necessarily believe that's how we should understand these words about the tribulation and maybe I'll just make it specifically just to narrow this question maybe in the context of Jeremiah chapter 30 in Jacob's trouble why should we not understand that it's just an Israel thing yeah I probably defer that to Michael Brown other author cuz he's worked worked in that more he's the Old Testament scholar okay but you know in Daniel chapter 12 it does say that Daniel you know go your way you'll be resurrected at the end of the days that he's been talking about he talks about a period of Great Tribulation Daniel explicitly is is to expect getting resurrected at the end of the tribulation so some people say well the Old Testament Saints get resurrected at the end we get raptured at the beginning I don't think that works and in terms of dispensationalism John John Walvoord who was the president years ago of Dallas logical seminary did say that you can't come up with you can't defend pre-tribulation ilysm without the system of dispensationalism and of course that's where it originated with released was popularized John Nelson Darby in 1830 held a very strict form of dispensationalism God does not deal with the church and with Israel at the same time so if he's going to deal with Israel at the end he has to take the church out but again like since 1948 who's gonna say that God can't deal with the church in Israel at the same time no I should also say that progressive dispensationalism is different from John Nelson Darby 'he's dispensationalism I think it's moved in a very solid direction and great friends were progressive dispensationalists like can you give us like a quick little distinction between those two what does it dispensationalist what's a progressive one progressive dispensationalists i think would be more more likely to realize okay yeah god as a future for Israel that's dispensational but we also recognize that you know spiritual believers believers in Christ I think they would say certainly I would say that we're grafted in to the heritage of Israel so we can you know we can sing father Abraham as many my song Hey we've already had you imitate the rapture once and now we get a song I feel so privileged dr. keener we need one more wild antics before the show is over like this you you've got radio people dr. keener you have twenty more minutes in this show to have one more wild antic we've kind of separating it into thirds I've got times times in a forum Liberty in just times time time yeah because what I would say is the believers are grafted in okay and so when it talks about I mean it uses language all over the place in the New Testament even in Revelation 7 9 through 17 it specifically says God's people from every kindred and tribe and people and nation and then it applies to them passages directly applies to them Isaiah 49 10 Isaiah chapter 25 he will wipe away every tear from from their eyes he will lead them to Springs of living water I mean these are these are passages about Israel applied to people from every kindred and tribe in people a nation you know I mean how many of you plan to be in the New Jerusalem that's for new Jerusalemites I just raised my hand but they couldn't see it okay there's so much I mean I could go all through the New Testament and show you things like this but just yeah yeah so one of one of our pre-tribulation brothers who believes at the tribulation takes place or the rapture takes before the tribulation his name is liberty and justice I say his name very well him or her they have the question because I don't I don't have genders here in YouTube and it doesn't say mic so I'm just assuming they they asked the question about Revelation chapter 20 verse 4 it says that these are only the the Saints who have been beheaded during the tribulation these are those who have died during what is your answer for why all of the Saints throughout history aren't present it does call it the first resurrection so if the other Saints are going to get resurrected they're gonna have to get resurrected at that time O'Casey specifies it's the first resurrection so so your your you would say that hey it mentions that those who have been beheaded but that's not necessary and that's not necessarily saying it's only those who died during the tribulation because at the first resurrection that should be everyone is that yours that you're part of this goes back to what the Rivoli what the tribulation means in the book of Revelation which will get more complicated I mean with just context pretty easily we can see you know all the passages about about being resurrected all the passages about meeting the Lord if the context specifies anything about it it's it's you know after it's at the very end but in terms of what the tribulation means in Revelation that's more disputable Revelation chapter 12 speaks of 1260 days does it mean the same thing as in Daniel because what you have in Daniel 11 seems like it was fulfilled in the time of Antiochus Epiphanes run you 5 BC according to the sequence of events what you have in Daniel chapter 9 looks to me more like it happened in the year 70 well the The Anointed Prince being cut off I take that if we take it to be the Messiah which is what I think it means you know anyway the first century 30 and then 70 the other part but then you've got it associated with the resurrection of the Dead in chapter 12 of the annual so are they all talking about the same thing or is this something that keeps repeating in different ways through history just like we had to fill in those twice for those of you who don't know we did film this twice this is the second take our first one we just taped it and audio is corrupt so but here we are alive and aren't you glad the video from the first one and then just the or the audio is crowned from this one anyway no but second Thessalonians 2 does seem to speak of a future man of lawlessness so it's like or first John 2:18 says you've heard that an Antichrist is coming even though there are many antichrists it's it's something that keeps happening as long as the spirit of evil is in the world the climactic one is gonna is gonna be like the worst which is really hard to believe after Hitler but anyway but in any case Revelation chapter 12 it speaks of the child who might be Jesus being caught up to God and to his throne and then the woman fleecing in the wilderness this is verses five and six the woman flees into the wilderness for a period of 1260 days now there's a couple ways we can look at that one is that from Jesus being caught up until this period just before the end it's the time clock has stopped that's that's what some people argue the other possibility is that he's using like he uses a lot of Old Testament reuses a lot of Old Testament imagery symbolically in Revelation to make a theological point the lion becomes the lamb and and so on well which isn't to say he's not a lion but to say he's also a lamb in in Revelation chapter 12 he may be using the the period of Great Tribulation not to say there's not a future tribulation but using it as a for the whole course of the age between the first and the second coming - to say that the whole course of this age is that the same quality as as the final tribulation is if to say in this world you'll have tribulation but be of good courage I've overcome the world now there's and that would fit Revelation being written after 70 because when Jesus speaks of what's the abomination of desolation let the reader understand in Matthew 24:15 he also speaks of things being fulfilled within a generation I think he's speaking of the destruction of the temple that took place then now again it could happen again but if it happened then then revelation can be reusing the number and not meaning the same thing the same exact period of Antiochus Epiphanes the same exact period the Jesus spoke from 66 to 70 and and so on but that's that's a whole other can of worms yeah so it seems like so you take the 1260 days or 42 months or time time and a half time or three and a half years however the scripture words that you take it as symbolic when it's reused and picked up in the New Testament of what Daniel was talking about when Daniel used it speaking of mintus Antiochus Epiphanes is that what you're saying yeah in Revelation 12 they do yeah in Revelation 12 I do think there is a final intensification okay so that will last three and a half years not really she's written twenty nine and a half books you have to know this shortened no no one no one would survive and since he says the days would be shortened I'm thinking he may mean the days so it may not beautiful yeah you know I've read in some of the church fathers that they that and I wish I could quote like which one or ones said this but that some of them thought hey we think it's gonna last three and a half years but we think it might be actually shorter than that because Jesus says it could be shortened for the sake of elect the elect or whatever the wording is the the church fathers held various views and some things in the second century pay pious Justin Martyr and Irenaeus all believed in a future thousand years AHA but they they believed well actually Justin Martyr said that there were people who disagreed with that it wasn't a fighting issue but after that the the amillennial view dominated through a lot of church history aha but the Church Fathers until Constantine pretty much all believed that either they were in the Great Tribulation where they were about to go through it now after Constantine you had people saying no we're in the Millennium now no I'm I'm interested in I'm seeing these comments coming in when when we talk about the pre-tribulation rapture I'd love to go when I was only like 10 minutes left here but to go back to the very beginning where did this thing come from okay so if this is a new 1830 it was put in the with the Scofield City Bible yeah it was so deal Erised that way how is it that this pre-tribulation rapture has not only come on the scene relatively recently but has such a strong impact in the West like I don't know of any Western Church that doesn't have to wrestle with this but if I go over to Middle East if I go over to China if I go over to the Coptic Church and I asked them about the pre-tribulation rapture they just laugh like you know you've never been persecuted but but explain to me how of the West has so taken is how is it but this is has grown so quickly yeah I was actually diminish headquarters when China came open in in the 1980s late 1980s after Mao's purges and and some missionaries went back there and we heard the report from them that when they when they went there the the Chinese Christian said you know we don't really need your help now when when you left around 1948 when you left we thought you'd all been raptured and we've been left to go through the Great Tribulation on our own miss taught but in any case now there's some people who say that there were there were some people in history who distinguished between like two stages of the second coming before 1830 but not very many it's not very well documented some of the ones that they say clearly we're not saying that in fact some of that some of the references are pretty much like what you have in the New Testament it's just like he's coming like a thief of the night whatever but but in 1830 you have it articulated clearly by John Nelson Darby now some people say he got it from a vision from Margaret McDonald I read her vision and I don't think it clearly articulates a pre-tribulation rapture so I think it was just Darby with his his dispensational idea but not yeah the really radical dispensational idea the there are some people are so radical with their dispensationalism that only the prison epistles are for the church you know ephesians philippians and colossians I love those epistles but yeah that's really extremely I'll say that that the Lord's Supper is not for the church because it's not in those those letters but Darby was fairly extreme in the sermon the mounts not for believers all this stuff's not for believers and of course I think all dispensationalists today would say you can you can draw principles from those texts even even though I haven't said it enough before I do want to say we're brothers and sisters in Christ so this is not like an attack for sure it's a friendly you know we banter back and forth in a friendly way absolutely we a question this is from a Danny llame baby okay so please ask dr. keener if he is a partial preterist or aam millennial just want to be clear so I think just kind of going off the fact that maybe that you interpret the the length of the tribulation as its portrayed in Revelation chapter 12 to possibly be more symbolic are you willing to extend the symbolism and revelation into the different plagues that are poured out that this was just well you know the water didn't is not really gonna turn to blood a partial fulfillment of at I guess or the partial of like all of that so how symbolically are we willing to interpret revelation how preterist are you that's actually not the preterist approach okay and again there's a loved one to heretic you're right that I misspoke but for preterist in the sense of like yeah anyway a number who were preterist who say a lot was fulfilled in 70 but they still believe in the future coming they study resurrection the dead but there are people who say even that's already fulfilled and so these partial preterists call those preterists heretics right which i think is true i mean yeah i don't know any other way to say it yes if you don't believe if you believe the second coming already happened yeah that is heresy there's literally a Bible verse for you guys to talks about it second one second Timothy chapter 2 those who say the dead the resurrection the dead has already passed I mean that's that's extreme that things were fulfilled in 70 but you can believe that and still believe it's it's a type of something yet to come I think a lot of dispensationalists would say that I mean I shouldn't be speaking for them but in terms of Revelation the plagues and so on the images of the seals and the trumpets come from the book of Exodus and in Revelation chapter 11 and verse 8 it speaks of judgment on the on the great city which elsewhere is called Babylon in the book of Revelation but in 11:8 it's called Sodom and Egypt and where our Lord was crucified uh-huh well geographically that doesn't work Babylon Sodom Egypt and Jerusalem are not the same place so when you speak of well why why the name Egypt that's where the the plagues came what we're not speaking of literally these being the same plagues that happen on Egypt in Moses day but we're saying these are the kinds of judgments that came and Moses as day but anyway that's that's all aside from the issue of pre-trib and post-trib that's that's a different question about how we interpret revelation well we have interested viewers who do want to like they want to learn at all so hey I'm just we're kind of scattershot here another question I want to ask you why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there so this this is a reference to John chapter 14 I have a place prepared for you etc so I want to give you that question but first we're gonna play an ad and then we'll come back and have you answer that question okay hey guys the song you're listening to right now is from stone bridge worship now stone bridge is sponsoring this episode of ribbon Trey do and last week they sent us a drop box link to this full album and I'm telling you this album is awesome it's edifying the quality is spot-on and if you haven't checked out stone bridge worship just go over to your Spotify channel and type in worthy is Jesus that's the song you're listening to right now the song is amazing and if you don't have Spotify man go check out their YouTube video link I put it in the description of this video at the bottom you can watch the full music video that you're watching right now and another big thank you to stone bridge worship and sponsoring this episode of remnant radio oh we're back yeah you were worshiping here that's good alright so why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there I almost didn't even deal with that in the in the book because I thought the answer was fairly obvious and then I realized note some people use their text well they just had by the time by the time I realized that they didn't have much space left to talk about in the book but in in in the context of that passage Jesus says I'm going to prepare a place for you I'll take you to be with me where I am and so the issue is we're going to be with him where he is no he says in my father's house are many rooms that reek term money is used only one other place in the entire New Testament and that happens to be later on in the same chapter in 14:23 where it says the Spirit will come and I am the father by means of the Spirit will come and make our dwelling place or Monay within you the verb form of it is used Meno throughout the context he will dwell in us and we in him as to what the father's house is in that context there's nothing that to believe that he's talking about heaven in fact the other two references to the father's house in the Gospel of John one is in 216 or so that's referring to the temple and the other is in I think 835 of the father's household what the father's house means in the father's presence and how do we get into the father's presence is this a second coming verse and you already know I believe in the second coming but the question is what is this verse talking about in context well his disciples didn't originally know either they said you know Jesus says where I'm going you know and the way you know and they said Lord we don't know where you're going how can we know the way and jesus answered I am the way and the truth and the life no one comes to the Father except through me now is that a second coming verse that's a Salvation verse and if that's a salvation verse answer in the context what does it mean how do we come to the Father through Jesus when when we come to the Father and salvation we come through Jesus he's the only way right so when he says in my father's house are many dwelling places where are you going I'm going to the Father how will we get there through Jesus the way when we are converted he comes and makes his dwelling place within us 14:23 that's what the whole context is talking about it's not even talking about the second coming and it's certainly not talking about heaven now having said that I'm sure that are the only places in heaven will be absolutely wonderful but really you know at the resurrection where we'll need our bodies isn't in heaven so much is on the new earth it's good man excellent well hey it's been such an honor for to have you back on the show I mean super thrilled to have you back on and to discuss this topic like I said we will definitely invite other people who are of the pre-tribulation perspective to come on the show I just approved that were where were like-minded were interviewing of people of all different kinds of positions to speak of that we have tonight a Calvinist coming on the show neither of us are reformed but we're gonna have a blast tonight talking about reformed theology I would love to just get everyone's closing thoughts or some thoughts from my Eagle thoughts from dr. keener on on just takeaways as people are walking away from this discussion what's something they need to study or read or to really consider as they're listening to our presentation today and just to remind you guys if you are watching this program right now this moment like alive we don't have the city guide up yet but there is a study guide coming from Dawson Dawson does all the research on the show so almost every single episode that we come out with there's going to be a document as a PDF file in the description of the video detailing the in-depth study of any given topic so whether it be new heavens and new earth whether it be the life of Martin Luther he's done quite a bit of theological and/or historical research on those that really encourage you guys lots of work has gone into those so if you haven't checked them out start doing so it would be helpful if you want to study more in depth as these are more just conversations so Michael let's start with you what are some closing thoughts for you man as far as pre-trib rapture yeah well again I think first of all whatever you believe about the end times if you believe in Jesus you're my brother you're my sister we're truly just awaiting our Blessed hope the return of our Lord second though I think that this subject can be so intimidating that we can want to not talk about it we can want to not study it and so there's this fine line between end times obsession and end times avoidance and the book of Revelation chapter one right at the very beginning it pronounces a blessing upon the person who reads these words aloud hears them and then keeps them that's kind of hard to do if you're anti end times and so it's so I say this I feel like I'm speaking to myself because you know the Lord had me preaching on Revelation this year and I was like no Lord I don't understand it and there's so much about it I don't understand a I'm a pastor I feel like it's like your jobs to understand the Bible right well revelation really confuses me I'll be quite honest and I've been countless hours studying it but but and it has been such a blessing doing so and so I think that my my thing would be lets walk that fine line let's not avoid it like one of the plagues but let's also not be obsessed with it let's just let's be obsessed with Jesus and and at its core the book of Revelation isn't primarily like revelation of plagues it's a revelation of Jesus and his character that's what you see setting in the context in Revelation chapter 1 this incredible son of God God dr. keener some thoughts for me sir yeah that's our Blessed hope the glorious appearing of our Lord Jesus I can't wait to see him I mean I I long to see his his reign I long to see him make things right in this world and so again whatever the details that's our hope we live for that hope we live in light of eternity so it's not just the not even just the passage about the second coming but you know in terms of the renewing of your mind not thinking according to this age romans 12:2 but thinking in light of what things are gonna be like a billion years from now how we can make a difference in this world in light of our lord's glorious return man hey man hey we shouldn't want to think again you dr. keener for coming on the show again and thank everyone who is watching in the comment sections slam are in I see liberty injustice I see Melissa in there I just want to thank you guys all tuned in almost every single time we do a live stream and we've been doing a lot of them recently so I just thank you for your viewership and the support you guys give on the show so I'd really encourage you guys make sure to hit the like button if you like the video the dislike button twice if you dislike the video hit the subscribe button like this we only got five discs five dislikes and we started with four before even doing the show dr. caner that's a compliment it's pretty good you only got one legitimate dislike twenty-three likes blessings to all of you but but we're going up together whatever the sequence is yeah and that's my final closing thought I reserve the right to change my position on the rapture mid-flight so we're if you're being caught up and we go early I'll change my position on the way up okay it's not not an essential view as far as Christian Brotherhood is concerned I would eagerly have a pre-trib guy work at a church that I was pastoring it really is on that level for me you can do fellowship and ministry together and disagree about the rapture in my opinion but looking forward to future conversations on eschatology as we're moving forward make sure to subscribe and we'll see you next time monday night at 8:30 p.m. subscribe guys a little bit early blackout but that that's all be blessed

Channel: The Remnant Radio

Views: 71,340

Rating: 4.3444057 out of 5

Keywords: disproving pre-tribulation rapture, pre-trib debunked, pre tribulation rapture lie, disproving pre-tribulation rapture: With Dr. Craig Keener, Dr. Craig Keener Rapture

Id: yzHZEyjihXk

Length: 66min 34sec (3994 seconds)

Published: Mon May 25 2020