Postmillennialism: With Pastor Doug Wilson

Joshua Lewis with the remnant radio the video you're about to watch is a production from our ministry remnant Radio is a theology broadcast we broadcast every Monday night 8:30 p.m. Central Standard Time here on youtube we have different pastors teachers from different churches and denominations coming on the show too that discuss a wide range of theological topics many of our guests we agree with and many of our guests we disagree with but our goal is to understand God's Word so that we can then understand the God who has given us his word so we hope that you enjoyed this conversation we hope it's been a benefit to you if you do enjoy this video and want to continue to help us produce content like this we'd asked you to go down into the description of the video and donate there's a description link there in the video and it would help us continue producing content just like this be blessed hey guys we're talking about post millennialism we've got Doug Wilson on a Skype call if you can't tell we are here in a different space we are not using our normal remnant radio studio space it is under demolition I will soon be up hopefully under construction it'll be under construction yeah we've been breaking down and now we're which we might do some of that today yeah logically that is correct that'll be fun hey so you you're actually about to teach through the book of Revelation you are going to be diving into that that's why we're actually doing shows on this so that you can figure out what you I'm through like the easy part the first five chapters now I got to get into the hard stuffs okay so pastor dog maybe you can help us out a little bit let's introduce our guest yes pastor duck tell us a little about yourself in your ministry well thanks for having me on my name is Douglas Wilson I'm the senior minister at Christ Church in Moscow Idaho Moscow Idaho's in the panhandle or the chimney of Idaho so we're up in the beautiful part of Idaho it's it's gorgeous here I've been pastoring here for 40 40 years saint church for 40 years Mary brought my brought my three kids up here they're all married they all live here and I have 17 grandkids so that's great that's the short form our talk today is gonna be on what is considered post millennialism what's called post millennialism I want to have you unpack that before we dive too far into our conversation and questioning but for those who are out there watching the live stream feel free to ask your questions we will be addressing those throughout the program so if you have questions keep them coming so so Doug tell us a little bit about post Millennials what is that and how can we come understand it there's great to start with definitions it's somewhat unfortunate that the three main positions on eschatology which is the study of the last days so there's and there's two forms of eschatology there's eschatology that deals with Heaven and Hell sort of the ultimate final final day and there's eschatology it has to do with the end of human history there are three basic views about eschatology in that latter sense the end of human history there's the pre mil premillennial a millennial and post millennial and these three and the thing is somewhat unfortunate is that the word millennium occurs in one place in the Bible and that's Revelation chapter 20 and it's one of the most difficult chapters in one of the most difficult books in the Bible and so alt so all the positions are named after what you think about the second coming of Christ with reference to that millennium so the the pre Millennials the premillennialists believe that Christ is coming before the millennium pre the post Millennials believe that Christ is returning again the second coming after the millennium post millennium and the AH Millennials are the odds of term of negation so the amillennialists don't believe in a literal earthly millennium which the premillennialists and the post millennialist s-- do so the premillennialists believe that christ is going to reign for a thousand years literally on the earth and he's going to come again before that happens the post millennialist s-- believe that there's a thousand years either metaphorically or literally of gospel peace on earth and Christ comes at the conclusion of that post-millennial then the AH millennialist believe that we're raining spiritually with Christ in heavenly places but there's no earthly manifestation of that millennium okay and now could you give us maybe you're sort of like one two three go to scripture some of the the biggest most important scriptures in defense of post millennialism all right sure the the thing that I would encourage people to do is not to trip over the word millennium because like I said if you're gonna defend your position you should be able to defend it from all of Scripture and if the word millennium only occurs in Revelation chapter 20 then you're not going to be able to defend post-meal pre mil or any kind of mil from all of sky I so I'd prefer to talk about the kingdom when Jesus when Jesus arrived on earth when he began his earthly ministry he was preaching the kingdom the kingdom of God is at hand the kingdom of heaven is near the Apostles do the same thing in the book of Acts so if I wanted to my go to passages to defend postmillennialism would be basically probably two Psalms Psalm 2 and Psalm 110 and then various passages from Isaiah probably Isaiah 11 so okay with with Psalm 110 it says that and Psalm 110 verse 1 is the most quoted verse of the Old Testament in the New Testament the New Testament writers quote that verse more than any other passage in the Old Testament the Lord has said to my lord sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool alright so Jesus quotes it arguing that basically how is it the David calls his own descendant Lord so Jesus is using it as an argument for the Incarnation someone descended from David was going to be someone that David looked up to in a worshipful demeanour and calling him Lord well the Lord said to my lord so this is God says to my lord sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool well who's at God's right hand Jesus Christ ascended that we're told repeatedly in the New Testament that Jesus Christ ascended into heaven at the Ascension and he was ushered into the throne room of the Ancient of Days and he was seated at God's right hand so then the question is how long will he be seated there how long will he remain there well he will remain there until all his enemies are made a footstool all right for he must reign it's at first Corinthians 15 for he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet that's first Corinthians 15 alluding to Psalm 110 so Jesus Christ is in heaven now and he's going to remain in heaven until all his enemies are subdued and hunters feet with one exception first Corinthians 15 tells us and that exception is the last enemy death right so Jesus is going to come personally at the second coming and the dead will be raised and when the dead are raised at the second coming that's when the last enemy is conquered but all the other enemies are conquered before that time before Christ comes again now if the premillennial view is correct then and everything just goes on pretty much the way it has been and then Christ returns and the dead are raised then it would have to follow that the first enemy to be destroyed is death but Paul says the last enemy to be destroyed is death so the preaching through the preaching of the gospel and the expansion of the kingdom and the planting of churches and the growth of the kingdom through all the throughout all the world all the enemies of Christ are going to be subdued to him the world will be successfully evangelized and everything is going to be brought under his feet with one exception death and then he's going to return personally to do that so that would be how I'd handle Psalm 110 okay so okay and then and so where does the casting of Satan into a lake of fire where does that happen for the post-millennial perspective so that's on another enemy that will be destroyed and so pre-death right because deaths the last enemy so we're just where does that fall in this game right so you have a number this is a first you're alluding to what is described in Revelation 20 which is like I said earlier a challenging passage to interpret but litsen can contextualize it the Bible tells us in a number of places about how the devil is already defeated mm-hmm so Jesus says you can't rob the strong Mans house until after you tie him up right so Jesus is the one who binds the strongman and pillages his house Jesus came to dies it says in hebrews hebrews chapter 2 Jesus came to die in order to destroy him who had the power of death that is the devil so 2,000 years ago the devil was destroyed to destroy him at the power of death that is the devil or in Colossians where Jesus in his crucifixion made a public humiliation of the principalities and powers but by his crucifixion so there's something about the death of Christ that that that topples Satan okay now I think jumping back to answer your question about Revelation 20 I don't believe that revelation 20 teaches that the devil will be annihilated or vaporized I think that if you look at the the passage it's it's the binding of Satan and I believe that Satan is bound with regard it says this specifically he's bound with regard to his ability to deceive the nation's so if you look at the old the Old Testament empires like Babylon or Persia the great empires of the Old Testament had a spiritual force behind them the the tyre had a spiritual entity behind them when Daniel is praying the angel shows up three weeks late and says I would have been here earlier but I got in a fight with the Prince of Persia on the way so there are spiritual forces behind the ancient empires of Babylon and Persia and in Greece and so on and I believe that Satan is bound with with respect to his ability to do that so there's no there's no more possibility in the Christian era of a new Babylon arising or a new Persian Empire or a new Roman Empire there have been attempts the Third Reich was an attempt to do that but it came crashing down within just a few short years excellent so so I've got two questions that have come in from different people that I think you can probably they're softballs they're pretty nice if you should be able knocking about real quick we've got a BJ Alan asked the question about Jesus Christ sitting at the right hand of the Father if Jesus Christ is sitting at the right hand of the Father and this inaugurates or initiates this period of time where where the father is making all of his enemies his footstool hasn't hasn't Jesus been sitting at the right hand for at least a thousand years now I think you addressed not to get too caught up in the Millennium but then I've got another question from someone whose name I won't even pretend to pronounce but they said that they are a post millennial another post but they are a preterist and they want to know if the post millennial position is more of a preterist position or a futurist position okay so great the the first the first is that you have to divide post millennialist s' naturally into two camps right most of one camp is dead but the 19 should have lasted that I feel bad now poor guys the nineteenth-century post millennialist s' 10 all look so all post millennialist believe that the church age the Christian era which is 2,000 years thus far and it may go for another 10,000 years we don't know that that Christian era is one of gospel triumphs the older post millennialist in the 19th century believe that but they believed in a literal 1000 years which was the concluding thousand years of the of the church era so the older post millennialist s' said there's going to be this glorious time of thousands of years the last thousand years of which is a literal millennium so they were post millennial but they didn't believe that we were in the millennium now most contemporary post millennialist s' simply take the millennium as a symbolic representation of the church age so if the church age goes for seven thousand years the thousand years of peace represents that church age okay so then the second question you had had to do with preterism pressure is the Latin word for past and so basically a preterist is someone who who believes that that the prophecies of the New Testament were fulfilled in the future of the person who made the prophecy but in our past so many common prophecies that people think are talking about the second coming of Christ preterists believed were fulfilled in the first century now contemporary post millennialist s' are almost all what I would call partial preterists okay they they take most of the prophecies of the New Testament that people usually attribute to the coming of Christ and apply it to the action of Jerusalem in 70 AD that would mean that the fulfillment of Matthew 24 let's say Matthew 24 is not talking about the end of the world Matthew 24 is talking about the end of Jerusalem so that happened 2,000 years ago in 70 AD and so my view of Matthew 24 would be a preterist view again there were post millennialist s-- who weren't preterists but most contemporary possible any lists are partial preterists they do believe most most orthodox post millennialist SAR i say partial preterists because any prophecy that has to do with the resurrection of the dead at the end of the world we are we are still futurists when it comes to those prophecies right okay I'd like to ask you a question about the difference between a millennial and post millennial because I've noticed that you've you've noted several similarities one the and just to bring these up you didn't necessarily call these similarities but I'm making these identification so you can correct me if I'm wrong but one is that both the Ammal and post mil perspective often often interpret a bulk of say whether it be revelation or Matthew 24 as preterist with the exception of certain like resurrection type passages or Jesus return there's a willingness to maybe interpret more symbolically rather than literally whereas the pre mil is more in the literal camp and then you also talked some about the binding of Satan as being in Revelation 20 something that happened in the past through the life death and resurrection of Jesus so all of these are very similar between post mill and all mill and what would you say are the chief differences between the tube now before I give you a chance to answer that question we have a quick word from our sponsor and then we'll come back and revisit it hey guys the song you're listening to right now is from stone bridge worship now Stonebridge is sponsoring this episode of remit radio and last week they sent us a Dropbox link to this full album and I'm telling you this album is awesome it's edifying the quality is spot-on and if you haven't checked out stone bridge worship just go over to your Spotify channel and type in worthy is Jesus that's the song you're listening to right now the song is amazing and if you don't have Spotify man go check out their YouTube video link I put it in the description of this video at the bottom you can watch the full music video that you're watching right now and another big thank you to stone bridge worship and sponsoring this episode of remnant radio am i back alright so the question differences between post mill and all mill great before jumping to that I did want to say one thing about a passing comment you made about the premillennialists yeah and that has the the literal symbolic thing you're right that the on those and the post mills generally interpret certain passages symbolically in a similar way that is the similarity but it's not over against the literalism of the pre mills because they they interpret symbolically also but they just interpret with a different set of symbols and they like to pretend that it's literal so I want to hear a little bit about this kid can we park on that for a second yeah sure whatever whatever you see in the book of Revelation if you find at Apache helicopters in the book of Revelation you are clearly in there you would have to do it by means the symbolism right yes right so that's a symbolic interpretation but nobody says that oh you you guys interpret the Book of Revelations symbolically because you come up with Apache helicopters right right that's a good point okay so back to the omnibus bill thing the the difference you're right that you could read anomaly Niall exegete for any number of passages and not be able to tell if he was on mill or post mill right I could read it I could read an article by an amillennial guy working through Matthew 24 profit by it agree with much of it if not all of it and not know that he was on mill right in fact I read a I read a book not millennialist one time and I thought the whole time I thought he was close mill so there there is the that there is the possibility of blurring or smudging the the edges at the end of the day the difference between the amillennialist and the post millennialist is this the post millennialist has optimism with regard to the course of the gospel in this world so the the AH millennialist believes if we're talking about what happened to Israel in the first century and what happened how the book of Revelation relates to the first century how Matthew 24 relates you're probably going to come up with a lot of agreement between the post bill on a nominal okay if we're talking about what's going to happen in the future of 2020 then you're gonna have the expectation of the post millennialist that things are going to get better and better as the gospel progresses throughout the world and the AH millennialist will believe that there will be advances and setbacks but things will pretty much go on the way they always have yeah so I I've got just a question on that that optimism you know second Timothy chapter 3 talks about perilous times that are coming in the end how is it that post millennial I always get afraid that I'm gonna say premillennialism an accident instead of Postma it make sure my get my my prefix we fix I was gonna say preposition I was get that wrong - my prefix correct so when talking about post monism how do you interpret those passages that say that the end times are going to stink it sounds like what you're telling me is that the end times are going to be awesome that as we're wrapping this but Jesus is gonna be glorified more and more more people are coming to salvation the Gospel message is going out and it is in fact conquering and winning the world is coming to salvation so how do you how do you parse that those warning passages about those end times that's where preterism comes in so when someone says in the last days thus as such will happen the first question that comes to my mind as a post mill is the last days of what are we talking about too often modern evangelicals just simply assume the last days of the space-time continuum the last days of the cosmos the last days of the world well post millennialist preterists post millennialist s-- will take a number of passages including the one you just mentioned as the last days of the Judaic a on so god worked with his people over centuries in the Old Testament and that age was coming to a close the the the Judaic a on ended convulsively in 70 AD when the temple was destroyed the Christian a on began forty years before that so there was overlap between the two like a like the exchange of a baton in a relay race so there was a time when the Judaic Aon was coming to a close and the Christian Aon had been launched so the Christian Aon was launched in right around 30 ad with Penta at the day of Pentecost and the Judah Judaic Aon finished in 70 AD all right so when the New Testament writers I believe that the New Testament was overwhelmingly if not entirely written during that 40 year period where you had the Judaic a on wrapping up and the Christian a on starting and so when they say in the last days last days of what last days to Jerusalem last days of the Judaic a on last days of the Old Covenant that's how I take it okay all right so an another actually sorry I want to come back to the just the optimism thing or really just just stick with that and so could you just maybe speak to I've heard you just in some of your YouTube videos talked about you know Jesus being the savior of the world and and just some of the scriptural undergirding for your optimism so rather than necessarily saying hey defend why you view this in a preterist way I'd like to maybe let you go a little bit on offense as why you think this is such a big deal why you why you think that the the scripture is teaching that we should be optimistic about how the the gospel is gonna go forth and conquer and and bear fruit etc yeah if you gave me enough if I were going to speak to a pre millennialist conference on this topic and they promised to be nice to me and they gave me one timeslot one shot you've got one shot to talk about this what would I talk about what I'd talk about the love of God I talk about the love of God for the world God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son um and but that's the most famous verse in the Bible John 3:16 you see it at all all the ballgames but what's the next verse for God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved so what what are we talking about the reason I'm optimistic about the world is because Jesus died for it okay Jesus died for the world behold the lamb of God John the Baptist says who takes away the sin uh who takes away the sin of the world in first John he's the propitiation for our sins and not for our sins only but also for the sins of the whole world God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world 3:17 John 3:17 but what do most evangelicals think Jesus is going to do when he comes again they think he's going to condemn the world yeah right but God didn't send his son to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved so the reason I'm optimistic is because if you couple these universal passages about the the atonement of Christ with the fact that I'm a Calvinist who believes in definite atonement I believe that the atonement doesn't give you a shot at getting saved or it's not a Redemption roulette it's when Jesus dies for you it secures your salvation so those for whom Christ died are going to be saved if Christ died for the world the world is going to be saved that's why Jesus is called the savior of the world he's not called the potential Savior of the world if they only believe but they probably won't that's not what it would have been too long maybe is that the only way that the amplified you're not looking in the Amplified Bible that's right he's the actual savior of the world that's good right but you're not as Universalist at the same time so I believe I believe in hell I believe that hell is a terrifying reality I believe that people go there but I don't believe the world is going there so to help us with this when we when we when I hear people talking about postmillennialism what I frequently hear is people showing up and saying well you keep saying that the world is going to get better but like you look at the Middle East and the way that they are taking advantage of underprivileged individuals if you look at China where people are losing their life for their faith if you look at different areas across the world we still see the world as bleak as it's ever been what makes you think that the world is getting do you see any evidences that would point to the world actually becoming better because of the Christian witness yes so I would say that people are not looking at the world they're not zooming in at the they're not zooming in on their time-lapse map in the they're not using the right increments okay so if I could um PJ PJ O'Rourke one time said that he could he could make the case for progress in one word he said dentistry so would you would you rather just whatever what in terms of medical technology in terms of political civil rights in terms of religious liberty in terms of life expectancies whatever you know all those all those metrics would you rather be alive today or 500 years ago 500 years ago or a thousand years ago a thousand years ago or 1500 years ago well if if I had to go to the airport and decide where I was going to fly where I was going to go I'd want to go to now okay and I'm just speaking in terms of what how bad the world is right the the bulk of the world live 500 years ago 99% of the people in the world lived in grinding poverty grinding poverty and when I was born in 1950 that was still true of the overwhelming majority of people in the world within the last few decades hundreds of thousands million people have been lifted out of grinding poverty things things are getting objectively better on a material level if you say yes but that's material we're not materialist we're not idolaters I'd say okay fine South America is turning Protestant right now today at a faster rate than Europe did during the Reformation okay Africa is becoming Christian Africa and the reason for the Islamic blowback in in sub-saharan Africa just below the say Sahara has to do with panic not is it's not there they're not confident they're losing Africa the the Muslims used to have a hegemonic control over at least the northern part of Africa which they're rapidly losing China is in the process of becoming Christian in other words this is the golden this is the golden age of mission I didn't yeah yeah Christians are losing their lives yes Christians are being imprisoned that doesn't keep it from being a golden age that's that's how we conquer right that's how we okay good and do you believe that the my understanding of post mill is that there's really kind of two views as to when the Golden Age began and I guess you might have addressed this earlier so I apologize if I missed missed this in your answer but are you in the camp that believes the Golden Age began kind of at the turnover of the age from the Judaism to the age of the kingdom and and Pentecost and after that and we've been in Golden Age ever since or do you believe it happened you know sometime later or do you believe it will happen sometime in the future I mean I guess you believe it's happening now I need to begin I believe the millennium began in 30 ad with Pentecost okay and the Judaic Age ended in 70 AD and so the millennium began then I I would say it but if you walked around and looked at the world 150 AD after that I wouldn't call it a Golden Age yet because the kingdom of God Jesus says is like a mustard seed that grows slowly or it's like yeast that a woman puts in three measures of flour it it / it works through the loyalty' process it's a process so I do believe with the older post millennialist that at the end of the millennium we will be able to see with our eyes that it's a golden age we will be able to see tangibly palpably that Christ is ruling right now we see it by faith okay now this was one of our listeners and you guys are so I think it was GE Carlin he has this question and and I'm sorry we just we can't get away from this revelation 20 pastor Doug but but this is I think a good question GE Carlin he says how does Satan being released off his chain fit in with the post mill view what will the world look like when this happens so to summarize for our viewers what what he's talking about is that revelation 20 it talks about how Satan is bound for a thousand years but then at the end of that he'll be released and so if if it's true that Satan was bound 2,000 years ago through the life death and resurrection of Jesus it what is him being unbound even means symbolically or what does that even look like in the post ya view so I'm I'll say personally I'm not settled on that particular part but I can tell you what most posts Millennials think about that historically what they say is that the gut the gospel is going to be victorious the world is going to be successfully Christianized all the nations will have come to Christ and then Satan will be released at the last so that and the argument is so that we will not give ourselves the credit you know it'll be easy when when things are going so well for us to say oh it's not the gospel it's not Jesus you know we're just civilized we've got our act together when Satan is released there will be a brief abortive rebellion right at the end of all things and that rebellion will be immediately quashed okay now is this the rebellion where it's like the the Gog and Magog and all the kings and the nations gathering together for battle is that what you're referring to base they surround the beloved city and yeah and so it looks dire for a little bit there but and that's the core to the view they you have to take account of Satan wrecks some havoc at the end of the millennium and so post millennialist s' don't believe that it's all going to be unicorns and fluffy clouds up until the Lord comes again there will be though there will be a sharp conflict a sharp war of some sort at the end of the millennium yeah so so speaking to the proverbial unicorns and puffy clouds can we can we talk about how this affects government in education and there seems to be a growing movement within kind of the Pentecostal charismatic vein called seven mountains and and it came about through someone having a dream as things do in the Pentecostal charismatic world and they decided that God was assigning them to take over areas of influence like the government and education systems and arts and entertainment those kinds of things this sounds in many ways very similar to that though it didn't come from a dream or vision and in fact came from Scripture help us understand what is the Christians responsibility in impacting the world from this post-millennial perspective yeah from a post mill perspective a post millennialist are generally hyperion in their view of the the church's cultural engagement so we we would want the church to be salt and light in business salt and light in education salt and light in arts and entertainment salt and light in literature salt and light in politics and so on so so yes we believe that when it comes to cultural engagement we have got to let the clutch out we we can't just be regular people go worship differently on Sunday and keep it irrelevant we have to take take what we believe and apply it to the actual world so so do do I say does the average post millennialist hold to kind of a theon evo of government that Christian should in fact find ways to because I know in America we have a difficult time of understanding the separation between church and state and if Christians should actually follow that as a way to not affect policy how do you understand that I've seen you do quite a bit of work on this talking about this and how Christians should get involved and I just want to make sure that we we at least talk about that since that's been such an impactful part of some of me sitting this is how Christians should get involved in some of these areas so when is one of the things we do when we talk about these things is that we trip the word so if you if you use the word it's the enemy for a lot of Christians that's a scary that's a scare word it's a oh no he believes in the enemy well if the enemy simply means God's law and we're living currently under man's law man's law thinks that a boy can be a girl man's man's law thinks that that two homosexuals can marry men's law is dictating these absurdities to us and when Christians kick and say that's that's absurd I don't want to live under that well the only alternative to man's law is God's law okay so but I would but because people when they hear the word theory they think about you know they they automatically jump to executing homosexuals or you know something like that I would prefer to I prefer to talk about the kingship of Jesus Christ all all societies are theocracies the only the only thing that separates one society from another is who is Theo that's very good point all right what's up the people or right it's the god of the system okay in American secularism Dimas we live in a democracy so Dimas that people are the god of the system mm-hmm Dimas the people demand what they demand and that's the way it is well I'm a Christian so I believe that Jesus ought to be the ultimate authority and and Jesus says in the Great Commission this is another reason for being post-metal he says all authority in heaven and on earth notice not just all authority in heaven but all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me Jesus says therefore go disciple the nation's and the direct object of the verb disciple there is nations he doesn't say go into all nations and get a reasonably sized Bible study going he he doesn't say get get at least 1% who can hide in catacombs he says all authority in heaven and earth is given to me therefore go disciple the nations baptizing them and teaching them to obey all that I've commanded so we are commanded to Christianize the world that's the Great Commission Christianized the world ok and I think our response ought to be ok well if we're teaching the world to obey everything that Jesus said then how is that not theocratic it's good yeah ok alright well I want to I want to just put out there two scriptures that I'm sure you hear these all the time when you talk about Jesus is he's gonna save the whole world he's gonna and I know you're not a Universalist but when you use this grand language to talk about you know the world becoming Christianized in all of this one scripture Matthew 7 narrow is the broad is the road that leads to destruction narrow is the road that leads to life that's one of them okay the other scripture Luke 18 I believe it's verse 9 when the Son of Man comes will he find faith on the earth seemingly the implied answer would be no that he's not going to find much okay so how would you respond to Matthew 7 and Luke 18 okay so let me do Luke 18 first week I'll do that in a more summery way although I hope it's adequate this goes back to the point I was making about the last days post millennialist believe preterists and post millennialist believe that the second coming of Christ is not the only coming of Christ they believed that Christ came in judgment on Jerusalem so when when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD that was an act of judgment from Christ himself judging the city that had that had so grotesquely mistreated him and rejected him and he tells he tells the high priest when he's on trial you will see the Son of man right you will see the Son of Man so when Jesus says and this is what why the high priest tours robes and said you've heard the blasphemy etc but Jesus is quoting Daniel 7 the Son of Man I saw the ones like a son of man coming on the clouds of heaven but he's not coming on the clouds of heaven down to earth he's coming in the clouds of heaven into the throne room of the Ancient of Days and there is given Universal Dominion so when when Jesus says when the Son of Man comes when when he comes will he find faith on the earth I think it's talking about the last days of Jerusalem and the answer is is no right all the believers all the believers had been told to get the heck out of there when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies head for the tall grass so that I think all all of that has to do with AD 70 now okay Jumping earlier to Matthew 7 brought us the way narrow the narrow the way to life what many Christians have done is they've made that sort of a timeless truth that in any given era there will always be more people taking the broad way to hell and just a handful of people struggling up the goat trail to heaven there's there's a little tiny or the sheep trail but only 144,000 get saved so but but again what is the context so Jesus if you look at the parallel passage to that passage in Luke so in in Matthew even brought us the way narrows the way but if you look in Luke the the people protest and say you know are there few that be saved and and Jesus is answering the question and so then the question is safe from what because the people who were asking the question said we we heard you teach in our streets we we heard you we saw you we saw what you did so it's clearly talking about first century first century Jews who heard Jesus teaching in the streets of Jerusalem so Jesus answers that the Broadway for the for the first century Jews the Broadway is the way to destruction and the narrow way is the way to salvation and few there be that find it now how do we know that that matters well because right after that in Luke he says many will come from east and west and sit down with Abraham Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom so only a handful of first century Jews make it and then many Gentiles flood in and they sit down with Abraham Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom many will come from east and west beset us so in the context of one of those passages Jesus is talking about Gentiles flooding into the church alright so I don't think you could make it into a universal dictum that one person is saved out of a hundred ninety-nine out of a hundred always go to hell I don't think that's the I just don't think that's right right okay all right no I see that you've got your Bible verse written down no well we have several directions I could go but I feel like I should address something that did a lot of our viewers I don't even think I could point to one question because probably had six or seven people bringing up they're really interested in certain preterist interpretations especially when it comes to the book of Revelation a lot of questions about the plagues and the Antichrist and and just basically everything from Revelation six to nineteen a lot of questions about do you really believe everything except for the return of Christ was in the past I don't expect you to address every single one of those but maybe you could hit a few highlights okay um thank you this is a great it's a great question so let me i'm contrasting here preterism with regard to revelation and futurism with regard to revolution the first thing to point out about the futurist position is that if I say that the book of Revelation is fulfilled 50 years in our future it's all going to come to pass in Year 2070 okay if I say that if I take that futurist position the first thing I discover when I'm writing my book is that the future is infinitely malleable that I can make I can make the future I can make 50 years from now walk on its hind legs I can make it do anything I can make it roll over I can make it bark like a seal I the the future is something that's it's putty in my hands right but if I want to say the book of Revelation was fulfilled in the first century the first first century history happened the way it did and I don't get to make up my own first century history so if I if I adopt the preterist view and I apply it to of Revelation and I applied to the first century I'm I'm working within fixed constraints in a way that the futurist is not working within fixed constraints that's the first thing the second thing is that when you do that you discover and you recognize the kind of literature you're reading which is apocalyptic apocalyptic literature which is highly figurative highly symbolic once you learn how to read it because zechariah is apocalyptic Ezekiel is apocalyptic Daniel parts of Daniel or apocalyptic once you learn how to read that genre of literature and you look and you're and you're well versed in what actually happened in the first century a number of things all of a sudden swim into focus so first thing you mentioned the Antichrist the first thing I'd point out is the Antichrist is not mentioned in the book of Revelation ever the Antichrist is not in there the Beast is in there in the popular dispensational imagination the Beast is the Antichrist and the Antichrist is the beast but in biblical parlance the Antichrist is a false teacher within the church the beast is a persecuting civil ruler okay so in modern parlance an antichrist would be a liberal Methodist bishop okay someone who denies the g'd a Liberal Methodist bishop who denies the incarnation he denies that that Jesus has come in the flesh John says that's the spirit of Antichrist that's many antichrists are going out that's that's false teaching within the church a beast is the persecuting king or an emperor okay so you look you look in Revelation where it says that there's a seven-headed beast and the seven heads are seven kings and the seven heads are seven hills okay Rome if I said the Big Apple everybody knows I'm talking about New York if I said the Windy City everybody knows I'm talking about Chicago if I said the Big Easy people know I'm talking about New Orleans if I talked about the city of Seven Hills in the first century everybody knows I'm talking about Rome Rome was built on seven hills and the Beast the seven heads of the seven-headed beast it says are seven hills and it says they're also seven kings five were one is one is to come so you start counting with Julius Julius Caesar Tiberius Caesar Augustus on down five were the one that is is Nero Caesar okay so five were one is and then after that there'll be one for a short time so right after Nero is our is the year of the Four Emperors Galba Vitellius autho and then Vespasian comes back from the siege of Jerusalem to take over so when when Nero launched the first persecution of the Christians he did so in 64 AD Nero was forced to commit suicide in a coup in 68 AD so the first the first persecution of the Christian Church by Rome happened between 64 and 68 AD which is a period of 42 months well the book of Revelation says the Beast is going to persecute the church for 42 months what do you what do you want egg in your beer you know yeah that's clever so so what about like even in dialoguing with historic premillennialists with dialoguing with even people who were a mill they look at partial preterism and they say hey man there's a lot of things that I think were fulfilled in 70 80 or before 70 AD however they kind of see it as this repeated prophetic pattern so like in I think it's in Isaiah I know it's in Isaiah I think it's in chapter 9 where Isaiah takes his son Asher batur cheb and he goes to a King Ahab Ahab is that correct - ghost king in chapter 9 he says hey and this is gonna be your sign a child will be born right so he goes to a partial fulfillment in the day of Isaiah but a greater fulfillment at the birth of Christ so they make this kind of illustration that apocalyptic maybe that might not be apocalyptic prophecy but prophecy can I have a partial fulfillment now and a future fulfillment that is completely fulfilled in the the last day so so what would you say to those who who said you're taking your partial preterism too seriously and saying yes it was all fulfilled there is no future fulfillment what what about a potential repeat of what has happened in the past oh I I think that a potential first I believe the point is well-taken and i believe in prophetic echoes or prophetic reverb reverberations God is a storyteller who likes to use the same themes over and over again yeah right man so you have exile and return all the way through the Bible you have you have the underdog story all the youngest brother brought all through the Bible you have death and resurrection patterns all through the Bible I don't have any problem seeing that what happened in the destruction of Jerusalem in the first century would be something that God would bring out of his toolkit again right so so in then to this same to repress the clarification Nathan Johnson asked a very similar question just saying hey you said that the Second Coming took place at the destruction of the temple is there a third coming is the third coming the judgment or like haha course probably not his favorite way race yeah yeah yeah he's and I think the way the question is worded is actually a it's probably a popular way that you're asked to this question I would imagine right so I believe I'm I would prefer to call the coming of Christ at the second at the end of the world I prefer to call that the second coming simply because if you call it anything else you're going to cause endless confusion so the second coming of Christ is his coming in the flesh okay he returns physically to earth and he raises the dead and inaugurates the eternal state so I would reserve Christ's coming in the flesh but his bodily return I want to call that the second coming but I do believe that Christ came in judgment on Jerusalem I was a manifest manifestation of Christ's spiritual authority when he destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD the Romans did it but they were the instrument in the hand of Jesus right okay I have a question about that because you talked about especially like the first time you answer that question in a kind of full way you talked about I want to say it's Matthew 26 around 64 or so where you know Jesus is Jesus is responding he's saying from now on you will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven so you have this reference to Daniel chapter 7 and the way I understand your point Doug that you're making is that hey Jesus was was telling him hey you're gonna see it in your lifetime you're going to see me coming on the clouds of heaven thus this was this sort of call it an intermediate coming a coming in judgment on Jerusalem and the temple etc now it's got a really reasonable interpretation that's the way I understand it but then I see that same Daniel 7 passage in say revelation 1 said of course Daniel 7 is all over the New Testament but in Revelation 1:7 it talks about the son of man coming on the clouds of heaven and there it says every eye will see him it seems to expand beyond just the Jewish people would you say that this Revelation 1:7 is just using Daniel 7 in a different way are there multiple ways we can use it like hey and one sense it speaks of of Christ coming in judgment upon Jerusalem in the temple but in the revelation 1:7 since it's speaking of Christ's true what we call the second coming how do you know buddy oh yeah the question makes perfect sense so I don't I I believe that you can take it as Daniel 7 is being used in different ways at different levels of expansion but not in diametrically opposite directions so I don't believe you can have Daniel 7 quoted in one place to have Jesus coming into the courts of heaven and then quoted in another place where he's coming to earth I do think that you can see him coming into heaven and you will know that he's in heaven ruling at the right hand of God the Father by looking at the effects of his rule right when when they look at the effect of Christ rule in the destruction of Jerusalem they're gonna look on the one whom they have pierced there they're gonna lament because they look on the one whom they pierced when everybody is invited to look on the one like the son of man in Revelation 1 I think it's the same sort of thing where people are being invited to believe on Jesus because they can see the effect of his reign in the destruction of Jerusalem the effect of his reign was devastation in other places the effect of his reign is glorious liberation it's good very great so we've we've got to wrap up the show we need to go around or do some closing thoughts were some closing thoughts that Michael and Doug both have as people are walking away something that they really just want everyone to to consider as they walk away from this interview but before we have those closing thoughts I really want to get you guys to get those reminders set on your youtube we've got some videos coming out this week that are just going to be phenomenal tomorrow we've got pastor Tim Ross for embassy Church with Matt Chandler from the village coming on in Wednesday that we got Jack Deere coming on in June we've got into you right coming on in June we've got some really great interviews that you're not going to want to miss so if you are watching this right now let's watch all the way out until we get those closing thoughts but after this video make sure to go to our home page it hit the set reminder button so that you can watch those live our usual programming is at Monday night 8:30 p.m. Central Standard Time but because of corona we've been able to snag some of these really great interviews so make sure to set those reminders let me start with Michael we got some some closing thoughts for today's with you absolutely Doug first of all it just really appreciate you it's really it's really great for us to have these kind of conversations I think it sharpens all of us because obviously not all of our listeners or post mill and so it should look great to have these kind of conversations I think you were very gracious and and very well informed so thank you a couple of thoughts one I really love I love the optimism of postmillennialism I think it's great because the that idea that like you know 17 people are getting into heaven you know the rezident like its honestly discouraging as a Christian and and to just say like hey the answer is Jesus died for the world I just I just am inspired by that I think that's an important inspiration because you know nobody wants to go fishing in a lake with like in the Dead Sea right nobody wants to go fishing in a lake with no fish and it's inspiring to fulfill the Great Commission and to seek to fulfill the Great Commission when you actually think there might be success in this this is going somewhere and so and then just seeing the the fullness of the Great Commission and making disciples in every area of life I just think I love how you started with Kingdom let's talk about the kingdom and what it looks like to bring the kingdom as we make disciples so then pastor Doug some closing thoughts just people walking away from the video what do you want them to remember consider city and those kinds of things yeah I'm I would like them to remember that the world this world is not God's Vietnam it's it's not God that was two birds with one stone that's very good it's not like you got involved in this fruitless attempt to save a country that didn't work and then the rapture is all getting helicoptered out of Saigon I don't I don't think it's like that Jesus Jesus is the savior of the world so I I think that this is the sort of thing even even my pre-meal brothers and Armijo brothers I would love them to walk away thinking you know I don't buy it but wouldn't it be great if it were true wouldn't wouldn't it be great if the world really did come to Christ and wouldn't it be great if the most of the human race winds up in heaven and not in hell you know hell is a terrible reality but wouldn't it be wonderful if the population of heaven vastly outnumbered the population of hell wouldn't that be wonderful wouldn't it be wouldn't it be wonderful if school children looking back at ten thousand years from now school children were struggling trying to figure out who lived first CS Lewis or Athanasius you know and and they said I can never keep these early church fathers straight because for for most of the for most of the future church we are we are the early church we we're just getting started this is just beginning and if you imagine envision a an evangelized world that goes for generation after generation with billions of people each generation loving and serving Jesus Christ and filling up heaven that way wouldn't it be wonderful if it were true it's awesome amen I love it thank you so much it's an honor to have you on the show we look forward to following your ministry and some of the stuff that you are continuing to produce do you have anything that you're really excited about on the upcoming future books that you've released conferences that you're doing there's no one's really doing conferences now but do you have anything that you're looking forward to you as far as cutting probably probably the the most obvious thing to connect with would be entice in with the subject of this episode here and that is a reason my most recent commentary is a commentary on the book of Revelation and it's called when the man comes around so if they go to Canon press and look for when the man comes around it's a commentary on Revelation and it's all there that's great hey thank you so much again for coming on for those of you who are watching right now go ahead like button if you like the video if you dislike the video hit the dislike button twice make sure to hit subscribe and we will be back Monday night 8:30 p.m. Central Standard Time every Monday but we'll be as back as soon as tonight tonight caleb caleb sutherland yeah talking about church planting movements it's been exciting that's great make sure you guys subscribe alright thanks guys have a great leader

Channel: The Remnant Radio

Views: 71,169

Keywords: doug wilson, douglas wilson, end times, doug wilson postmillennialism, doug wilson eschatology, Postmillennialism, post-millennials, postmillennialism, postmillennialism explained, postmillennialism doug wilson

Id: Q23uHdaDyI8

Length: 63min 1sec (3781 seconds)

Published: Mon May 18 2020