A Conversation on The Book of Revelation with Dr. Craig Keener

[Music] hi I'm Craig Dumont with Pentecostal pastor dot-com and with me graciously for one more session here and I'm very thankful as dr. Craig keener he is the author of a multitude of books he has a website where a lot of popular articles are posted at Craig keener com we have just concluded an interview about his book on spirit hermeneutics it's one that I recommend every Christian leader pastor all the way down to adult Bible teacher and really it's good for anybody who wants to study God's Word you can pick up but dr. keener you've uh you know through your study your word you have some things that that are on your heart you'd like to share and one of those is just on the book of Revelation can you can you just give me a little kind of a little bit of insight and maybe you know as you've studied that maybe what you found the structure will start there maybe maybe your interest is maybe the structure mm-hmm well when I was a young Christian I was so excited to get to the book of Revelation and then I got there and didn't understand any of it what in the world is going on here and it actually was when I first it was a few years later I was taking Greek and I decided to work my way through revelation in Greek made me slow down pay attention and also I started reading some other you know by then I'd read the Old Testament and I started reading some other similar kinds of writings that helped me to understand Revelation better and it really started falling into place and making sense eventually I was feeling like the Holy Spirit wanted me to write something on Revelation and proposed it to Zondervan and the strange thing was I'd never written anything for Zondervan before at that point so I didn't quite get around to it I was working on my John commentary at that time when an editor from Zondervan called me and said we have a cancellation in the NIV application serious would you consider writing one of the commentaries I was like well I am so busy with this John commentary I don't know if I if I have time but I thought well maybe just in case it's on Philemon there's something second John they said what what's it on he said revelation yes so well that was I ended up reading the revelation commentary for all okay and they've since done a video lecture series based on that as well but in terms of the structure of the book of Revelation of course you have the the narrative introduction well the epistolary introduction first it starts like is if it's a letter to the seven churches and the narrative introduction as john meets the risen christ again and then the the letters in chapters 2 and 3 and after that you have three three sets of judgments you have the seals the trumpets and the bowls and you have some interludes in between them especially between the especially interesting from eleven nineteen through through the end of fourteen mm-hmm and of course you have the much-debated millennium of chapter twenty you know then the New Jerusalem in chapters 21 and 22 but in terms of the structure of the book that people I think make me struggle with more are the seals trumpets and bowls consecutive or are they simultaneous and I want to make an argument for why they're simultaneous is that the book of Revelation is not arranged chronologically from start to finish because if it is then the Lord comes back four times or five times depending on how you count it but rather the seals the trumpets and the Bulls all landed about the same time so the sixth seal you've got things that kind of sound like the world would have to end at that point you know cosmic dissolution stars falling from heaven and and so forth the the final trumpets you have the same thing and then the final the final bowls and every island and mountain was moved from its place and so forth so it looks like they all end at the same point now the question of where they begin is is also a debated quite actually that's a really really debated question is this talking about the same period of tribulation that Jesus was talking about based in the Book of Daniel and if so what do you do with the fact that in Matthew 24 it speaks of that being fulfilled within a generation like I mean I I believe the Lord is still coming in the future but and I believe Matthew 24 does talk about his future coming but as for the abomination of desolation there you know some of that was fulfilled 40 years after Jesus spoken this revelation is probably written after that so some people would argue you look at Revelation chapter 12 verses 5 & 6 the 1260 days begins when the child was caught up to rule the nations with a rod of iron is caught up and that might suggest that he's taking the image of the endtime tribulation and applying it to the whole course of history between the first and the second coming that's at least one one interpretation of it so just to say that the way we've often taken it is not the only way to take it and maybe I can summarize some of the different interpretations through history yeah most of the earliest church fathers so far as we can tell like Irenaeus before he a pious just an order and in the 2nd century they seem to believe in the future thousand year period but as far as the tribulation they either believe that they were in it or about to go through it and then after that period Tomalin yield you which actually just the murder shows some people already held in the second century the amillennial view predominated which in its current form is that the period between the first and second coming is the Millennium not just the tribulation but the Millennium its Christ reigning through the Saints on earth it's the flipside of their other suffering so we are overcomers we are victorious even as the world is overcoming us like revelation 12:11 they overcame them by the billion ruben testimony at the same time thirteen seven that the beast is overcoming them and then that we was dominant once Constantine became Emperor people said no no the tribulation is over with now we're in the Millennium and so that that you became dominant and actually Eusebius writing in the 300s says that the people before him who were but he says we could talk most erratics won't listen to us but one kind of heretic we can talk out of their heresy by the premillennial of Caesarea thought they were heritage Augustine later a more solid foundation for that you are Martin Luther John Calvin they were amillennial know in the many of the Puritans and also be in the first and second Great Awakenings here in the United States most of those leaders were post-millennial it is they believed okay Heaney do well when the good news has been preached among all the nations than the in return which of course we all of you Matthew 24:14 but they said we would establish God's kingdom on earth for Christ and then he would return because it's it says sit at my right hand until I make all your enemies a footstool for your feet so after all the other enemies have been subdued then Christ moves back and by the late in your book on spirit hermeneutics I noticed that you made a mention in there that the earliest kind of constants tended to be post-millennial I didn't know they were no no I didn't I didn't see your least constants were personal okay okay but many people that they looked up to I'll go spinning John Wesley kind of held a couple dollars okay but Charles Finney Jonathan Edwards no meters and the Great Awakenings would post-millennial okay now in the in the 1800's 1830 John Nelson Darby came up with form of premillennialism called dispensationalism that's not it was different from the earlier premillennialists and even from the premillennialists to this day he argued that there's a future thousand years but also the church will be raptured out before the end tribulation because God deals separately with Israel Church he doesn't deal with Lucas so that was the beginning point of what we were for lack of a better term rapture theology what is that was either one that kind of originated that ya idea now if by rapture you mean catching up to dawn in the year right right yeah but but if if if by rapture you mean the rapture before the tribulation I separate from the second coming yes nobody in history is documented this believer here before 1830 okay and of course that view became very dominant you can understand when people would like it but that knew became particularly dominant in the late 18-hundreds through through CI Scofield scope of reference Bible but then you particularly disseminated the early 20th century through a lot of little prophecy conferences and so on the Scofield reference Bible at the founding of the Assemblies of God in 1914 in Hot Springs Arkansas one of my professors who was an Assemblies of God Church historian Kari McGee told us that most of the founding leaders of assembly said Scofield reference Bible so it wasn't written into the doctrine officially as as pre-tribulation ilysm but there are reasons why it became common and the Assemblies of God historical reasons and actually I I have seen with the Church of God by the way I mean I'm not sure if it came from the scope Eli I don't know about that God has it written into our declaration of thing that that's what that we browse in the decoration fade yeah okay with the Assemblies it's a position paper but it's not part of the by 1916 fundamentals in some parts of the world where most of the missionaries came from the UK the churches are all millennial and where some other parts most of the churches were founded by missionaries from from the u.s. most of the churches are reachable a tional premillennial partly because we've been hearing their doctrines yes and one reason I like to give my students a survey of some of the views historically is to free us up to just go back and look at the Bible for ourselves and say okay some of this is tradition in my church this is what my denomination teaches but this is where it comes from let's go back and see what the Bible itself since there have been men and women of God with many different views yeah through history God still bless them regardless of their differences on details of eschatology and really the Creed's really only I mean the priests just simply say that we believe in Jesus Christ shall return right yeah yeah we believe that's what all Christians believe but you know that may be the timing is a little bit different but right yeah so so the so so as you got into this study and it started right I'm just going to curious look at it what as you as you went through this you obviously it's almost impossible to read the book of Revelation and then you know in the context specially as it's been popularized and evangelical culture without coming to some of your own conclusions based on like maybe you know as you talk about the timing of Revelation either the way it's structured but also maybe who Babylon is and did I mean what's where did you what do you what's your thoughts concerning that as you kind of walk through this because that's a big one yeah revelation realized a lot of interesting passages not just general judgment passages which it does but also gentlemen passages specifically babbling the babble on that was already judged but this might why is Babylon the the I mean why because babbling destroyed Jerusalem enslave God's people so you read in the Book of Daniel about 14 MCM including Babylon well by the first century the view of the fourth kingdom was normally that it was wrong and so Rome also ended up destroying the temple destroying Jerusalem and enslaving God's people and and even before that happened Rome was already seen as this fourth beast because they were already oppressing God's people and the Empire controlling God's people an evil empire so so they saw wrong as the you know the successor of Babylon and in Jewish literature sometimes Romulus is called Babylon and of course in Revelation 18 sorry revelation 17 the first part you start with verse verse 9 I believe it is it says that this is the city it is on seven mountains and Rome was regularly you just read randomly through ancient Roman literature called the city was founded on seven hills yeah and they had an annual celebration in the septum on tiim commemorating their founding in the seven others also the city that rules over the kings of the earth well that would be news to parthia or China or India but or you know Africa like Nubian kingdom of marilla but it was in terms of where the seven churches in Asia Minor were here they would think of Rome also you look at the imports in chapter 18 verses 12 and 13 imports that are brought into battle and there are the imports that we know were being brought into Rome in material it's a mercantile entire Revelation chapter 18 well the only Empire and particularly the fits that comes anywhere close we'd be wrong so there are a lot of features that hit Rome but when you look at chapter 13 so what it says about this you know they had wounded to death and so forth many of the descriptions in verses 1 to 7 go back to Daniel chapter 7 it talks about these four beasts and then after these four beasts comes the one like a son of man and it's not a beast is God's kingdom comes in Jesus but revelation doesn't just speak of in the fourth beast it doesn't just speak of the beast in the description of the fourth beast who Daniel it coalesces all those images together so even though Babylon was the Rome sir ron was the Babylon of John's day it doesn't mean that the spirit of a blur died with Rome this is the spirit of evil empire and it can be expressed in different ways into the times and so I believe that that spirit of evil empires still is still with us but still it's significant what it meant for the babble of John Stape because here was the mightiest Empire that is part of the world of ever known it seems poised to crush the tiny Church of God and yet in chapter 18 John hears a funeral dirge fallen fallen is Babylon the Great so here's this exiled profit on the on depatment banished by the Roman Empire who has the audacity to report the downfall the coming down fall of the Roman Empire within a few hundred years Rome fell yeah and and all the Empire's the past now lie in the dust but the Church of Jesus Christ is alive and well and it continues to grow it was spread John was a prophet and he and you look at some of the other things he sense that people from every kindred and try the nation will be more God's throne worshipping him just in the past century how the heavy church has shifted from you know like these aren't the exact statistics but it was like something like the vast majority were in the West what we call the West uh-huh and and now the vast majority are are in Africa Asia Latin America yeah so John it's alright it's got so bad that work I mean to actually get I know the Anglicans in order to get believing priests bleeding pastors actually have to import them from all over the place they can't even get from here for what if you're an anglican priest from here he's speaking in general residence that's right yeah oh that is that's absolutely true I didn't mean to bake a minute but it is interesting I I have I've dealt with some friends of mine were in church up in Lansing Michigan and they the I think he was a South South Korean they when they brought me their search took them to South Korea brought over I think he was South Korean but brought him over and wonderful man love the Lord but they but in their at least their case they were having trouble finding someone who within their within their organization that would actually you know the wood was yeah I'll just leave it at that with it but because absolutely I don't want to I mean with shooty right I mean you know I love that he writes that he's Anglican so I wouldn't want to have that apply to him and many others but so so let me let me ask you and so there's some other things that so Babylon here there's revelation you see it only as a historical book that we just kind of what would what's your view on how that what does revelation have to do with us today and after we talk about that I actually want to ask you about in another at least in in popular literature without the bucket of market obese and maybe even the beasts themself but but what once your what's your take on how the book of Revelation when you're when you're doing this and you're writing about it in the commentary what where's your heart at in terms of what does this mean to the church today it's very applicable today but it has to be applied the right way of course often introductions revelation summarize four major approaches the idealist approach it says it deals with timeless principles but they're not really anchored in particular time it's when it's taken this complete conclusion the historicist approach which basically makes it a reading of church history and it has to be updated every every few years as history goes on longer than except that it was more popular in the 19th century than it is today but another approach is the preterist approach since okay this was all not just relevant to the first century but this happened in the first century that's the it's I mean there are different levels of preterism the most extreme preterists you know I talked with one who said that the resurrection of the Dead is already panacea and I said you know that core calls that heretic all right this is well again but anyway that's death the extreme premise the other predators sensitive a theoretical but and then the futurist approach that says there's all future no most people hold at least somewhat of a mixture yeah because I would think that's true just from yeah just from pastors I know I and I would say myself this I you know it's that's where I would fit in in all those revelation 12 when the child is currently having the world nations at the rod of iron almost everybody agrees it's Jesus and that already happened right so at least that much is is passed and in terms of the symbols so that he used in revelation hirato more symbols that were widespread in that day they were they were things that would be intelligible to readers and that Davis understood saying and then well there's no doubt that the churches were real churches and yeah they were and they were speaking to real situations it did unfold in their day but yeah that doesn't but again that doesn't mean necessarily there's no Apple or that God did not want it to be applied right otherwise there'd be no reason we recorded in Whitney and when Paul writes letters to look lighter important we don't allegorize this church yeah that's right and these are letters to the seven churches not in Revelation but then also almost everybody agrees that revelation 21 and 22 whatever they think about 20 they think revelation 21 and 22 is future so most people have at least some futurism in at least some passed out and in terms of the ideal principles I mean all Scripture is inspired miserable for teaching so you know there have to be principles there there has to be a message there that still speaks to us today but what we normally do with other parts of the Bible we read them in their historical context sometimes like case studies we say okay this is what it said with them in their situation well that has long to do for our situations today and we just take into account the different situations yeah in in the case of revelation some people they want to say no it's it's all future or almost all future because some of these things haven't happened yet because you can't interpret things symbolically well there are different genres in the Bible some things and interprets pretty literally and some things you interpret a lot more figuratively for example in Hebrew poetry when joke says my steps are bathed in butter or in the Song of Solomon where the bride I believe it is but icicles Ashman are they literally pulls a Cushman you know she sits up rice just drip right out of her head your neck is like the Tower you know does that does a harlot actually sit on seven months right yeah you know she's the mother mother of prostitutes so you meet a prostitute you see oh I read about your mom or in Revelation 12 the woman clothed with the Sun yeah I know an average we're like 93 million miles from the Sun but but this woman is clothed with the Sun I mean that's that's pretty warm yeah and in Revelation even says Revelation chapter one in verse 20 it interprets some of the symbols it says the stars are the angels of the seven churches the lampstands of the seven churches but lampstands being the standard symbols for Jewish congregations throughout the ancient Mediterranean world Star of David comes a lot later and so you have things that are specifically understood as symbols within the book of Revelation and then Revelation also even even verse 1 where it says that God sent it signified this message the word signified Cimino is a cognate of the word samay on sign which is used for the woman in heaven the great red dragon in heaven now these were signs and symbols and in God was communicating the book partly in symbols because the tradition of Hebrew prophecy you know most of the writing prophets prophesied in poetry before the exile after the exile that wasn't necessarily the case but they still used a lot of symbolism look as agar ayah yeah clearly a lot of symbolism and so that's not to say that everything has to be symbolic but we need to we need to ensure the revelation in some terms done with a pre-existing well everything has to be literal that's not the way you were supposed to interpret you violated literature and you can compare other kinds of works that were composed like first Enoch second century BC not really written by Enoch by any means but it talks about these stars falling from heaven and impregnating these cows now you read it in context in Pristina gets talking about the sons of God bringing their daughters and then but it's put in symbolic language so by the time you get to the book of Revelation people were used to not just in the Old Testament but even in other documents that are circling they're reduced to the idea of yeah sometimes these things are communicated in symbolic language as to what the symbolic language means a lot of the symbols are taken directly from the Old Testament yeah and and some of them are taken directly from first century trip around the world we we sometimes want to read we do what's called what I call newspaper hermeneutics yeah where prophecy teachers will keep revising their interpretation of passages as the newspaper headlines changed so for example the kings of the East in Revelation 16 until World War one the Western interpreters adapt in Europe and well Western Europe and in North America interpreted that as a Turkish Ottoman Empire under the seven churches in Asia Minor would they think of Turkey as East you know but but Turk the Turkish Ottoman Empire that was the threat as far as the these Western interpreters were concerned after World War one when the Empire was dismembered the threat on the horizon now from East they said this refers to Imperial Japan well after World War Two and the u.s. and Japan had friends they seemed only refers to Communist China the Great Red Dragon of course but if you actually look at at what it says in Russian I mean oh yeah yeah yeah yeah I mean I bet across the board after yeah you know the u.s. becomes friends with China they would interpret it that way the river euphrates across which the Kingsley's travel was the boundary between the roman embarking employers and the parsons were the most feared enemies of the romans so using the language of its day it's speaking of a terribly fierce invasion the worst conceivable invasion now if you were reading first century newspapers instead of instead of modern newspapers to see what the what the imagery comes from well in just maybe five or ten years before revelation was written perkins actually did cross the river Euphrates invaded Asia Minor where these seven churches were and claimed that Nero would die be wrong but had no been persecuted Christians Nero was at the head they thought they it wasn't the real you know the great hero was a big head of this invasion and it was repelled but this was something that would be present in people's minds and parts not saying you know let's let's expect literal Parthian to come back and cross the river Euphrates or you know people saying these were helicopters or something you have I remember at one time one big popular prophecy preacher was saying I was talking about the build-up of forces you know they were going to use forces to invade any things like that yeah yeah that happens quite often doing well in when people apply and say yeah I think it was held in see these are Apache attack helicopters you know that's not what the symbol meant but if it were written in our day that might be the symbol that would be used right yeah for invasions so I don't think he was interpreting right but I think he got you know he translated some of the images into the scary kind of image has been that really communicate the point you better be right with God yeah you better repent if you're not right with God because because things are going to get worse did this tendency to misinterpret revelation or set dates worse worst of all it's been going up a long time I'm Hippolyta's said the world would end by the year 500 of course I didn't know this off a little bit yeah one of the other early church fathers st. Martin of Tours said that the Antichrist had surely already been born Martin died in 397 so if he was right the Antichrist is very old but of course first John 2:18 you've heard Antichrist is coming even though there are many else anyone who denies of Jesus Christ yeah but you look through history and there's all you know it's been going on during during the Reformation period somebody was saying okay Strasburg is going to become the new Jerusalem and he died in prison there ten years later somebody else was was saying that the peasant revolt is going to precipitate the end of the age and it did for him thousands of peasants were killed he was taken prisoner and executed back then in time speculations died hard sometimes literally and and you have this continuing in subsequent centuries I know I know and I know I mean you know I'm not familiar with a lot of those i I do know like at 1000 AD lot of people thought that round was coming and of course at corresponding with 2000 AD and yeah you know and both night in the eve of 1900 there were a bunch of people who took out newspaper ads saying you know the world's going to end at the turn of the century oh we played with God Wow okay so it's been going on for a long time and y2k you know the reality remembers that in 2000 but one of the big ones was 1988 they said you know I already ate 40 years after 1948 you know this is going to be it based on a complete misinterpretation or passage run but in 1987 there were no it was 1988 there were there was a book called 80 reasons where the rapture might be in 1980 and that book sold three million copies I had a friend who worked in bookstore then and the owner told her make sure to sell as many copies of that as you can before December 31st is in 1989 nobody's gonna buy the book and sure enough in 1989 the same author sold a revised edition 89 reasons where Jesus would come back in 1989 yeah for some reason it didn't sell very well let it never be said that North American Christians were easily deceived two years in a row by the same person the one thing that predictors of times and seasons all had in common is they've always been wrong yeah so let's just stop with that stuff but here the message of Revelation and he teaches us about prayer moving history the prayers the Saints with history in the book teaches us about God's judgment that God is just yeah and it ended he doesn't look the other way in a world of evil but he brings everybody down to the same level before him we we read about God's promises to us victory and hope we it is a revelation of Jesus Christ right I mean yeah it's it's in Jesus is worth dying for yeah you see that all the way through the book of Revelation and in the letters the seven churches are so applicable well so with the with the mark of the beast that scares people today I mean it you know I remember growing up as a kid but by the way I remember in 1980 we had one of our top in our camp beat up in Michigan we had one of our top evangelists coming campaign scared the daylights out I did I almost didn't go to college I mean I really it was like you know we have a thousand days and you know it was a hole you know and everything and of course that thousand days has come and went but but the I was gonna say but but the there's this fascination with the mark of the beast but I remember as a kid I remember it was the credit card at first and then it was the scanners remember that I some of the stuff is so you look back is so crazy because scanners and you know that they have the grocery stores and that was going to be I can't remember all the mark the beasts if you know and and of course they're coming out with new ones all the time but you know you have any thoughts on you know I'm a marketer and one person said that this you know this kind of falls into the Christian version of Stephen King people love to be scared and say instead of Stephen King they have their own spiritual version but building ideas or you have any thoughts and both the beast and the mark of what that may be yeah well as far as credit cards if they tell you you have to deny Jesus to get a credit card obviously yeah but I mean that's the that would be the principle there but of course they didn't have the credit card in mind when that happened you look through the rest of the book of Revelation from mark some people aha Revelation chapter 3 in verse 12 it says that we will be pillars in the temple of our God most of us don't take that literally the ruble ceiling but there are often inscriptions on pillars and it says that will be pillars in the temple of our God and that you'll write on this the name of our God and the name of the New Jerusalem in chapter 22 it says that his servants was certain before his face whose name will be on their foreheads in chapter 17 it says that Babylon the Great has a name written order Babylon the Great Jesus comes back in chapter 19 with the name written on him now Jesus obviously is literal but his battle in a literal woman with its opening literally written on it and also chapter 7 we have the righteous who are sealed with with sealed sealed by God and that idea goes back to Ezekiel chapter 9 the sealed with God to protect them Ezekiel chapter 9 the angel an angel goes forth and marks God's servants so the judgments won't touch them and then another angel goes out answered slaying everybody else it isn't about mark there's none of it I'm sorry I'm trying to rebel but but isn't there some stones to they have the name on right and is it in 217 speaks of a white stone to what LK and it with a new name okay yeah also there was a document goes back to 1st century BC so it was widely circulated by this point the Psalms of Solomon not not written by Solomon authenticly but the Psalms of Solomon speaks of a mark for the righteous in the mark for the wicked uh-huh so this idea was already understood but it was a marker was only seen by God in by angels so essentially this is speaking the words ownership so in 13 16 through 18 that speaks of a mark of the beast okay chapter 14 and verse 1 the very next verse there's no chapter divisions in the original it speaks of 144,000 with the lamb on Mount Zion and on them is written being the Lamb well so the message is you've got to serve somebody you're really going to have the name of the beast written on you the name of the Lamb what are you going to serve now somebody actually goes around stamping living people and we don't want them right but but the message of it is relevant to every generation and that is choose who you'll serve what I'm just saying Jesus said you are of your father the devil yeah I mean so I mean so to be your Melissa oh yeah okay searching months and even the hundred four thousand there's a lot of things from your Testament that are be applied in the book of Revelation why is why is the New Jerusalem shaped like a cube well in the Old Testament the Holy of Holies is shaped like a cube we're going to be in the presence of God and distracted fullness of his word for ever and ever in terms of the hundred four thousand twelve thousand each other each of the tribes well those numbers get reduced under courted more from twelve thousand appeared in Revelation 21 as the dimensions in Greek some of the translations don't have it because they try to get me to miles and kilometers but in Greek it's it's 12,000 stadia squared and then the wall is actually cubed and then the wall is under 14 bits so numbers get reused lease this is the New Jerusalem this is the City of God for the people of God then you did 100 foot of a thousand we're standing with the lamb on Mount Zion in chapter 14 are the major whistlin lights and so in Chapter 7 you know it's it's 12,000 from each of these 12 tribes and immediately after that there's another vision now sometimes in the Old Testament another vision is something new sometimes it's another way of looking at the same thing like Joseph's dreams Pharaoh's dreams and so in Revelation 7 it goes on to speak of this innumerable multitude from every kindred and trying people a nation so not just in the Torah and they they're not just a hundred thousand or innumerable yeah thousands of thousands of times that I mean it's yeah yes but but then you look at what it says about them it says that the lamb was in the midst of the throne believe in the Springs of living water will either hunger and thirst either cold or heat or the Sun will be down on them and so on July 20 from neurons that's taking from two texts in Isaiah chapter 49 verse 10 and also Isaiah chapter 25 and two different to tus changes are made there because Isaiah is talking about Israel God's people and is talking about what God Yahweh will do first people yeah in Revelation the two changes are it now refers to God and the lamb so Jesus is divine and secondly it's about these people every Tribal Nation revelation has already said that these people from every kindred and tribal people a nation will be kingdom and priests before him so that we will be that's language taking them Exodus 19 applied the Israel so in other words this is for Jewish believers in Jesus messianic jews but it's also for all the gentile believers had been grafted into heritage of israel that we we all worship God together well that's why the churches are portrayed as lampstands which was a symbol or Jewish congregations nimma in the Roman Empire so one hundred over thousand it's not the first Jehovah's Witnesses right yeah and there's a couple ways to take it either it either it's Messianic Jews and then it's complemented with Messianic Gentiles so to speak or the number of symbolic and the identity Simone but this refers to all the people of God with Jewish and Gentile who are part of the heritage of God's people I think it's probably the latter but you can measure argument to the Roman right I would this actually the way I will suck your most so because I I'm just thinking in terms of you know when that when the veil is you rip right down there's neither you know they I mean they're it's it's not two peoples one people now I'm just going to thinking out loud yeah I haven't really yeah I'm not a I am you know I'm staying away from revelation terms of any expertise so I depend on on people like you I I because I you know I'm up I look at it I think wow that's I mean there's a lot of stuff here a lot of stuff to unpack but but when it comes to that I would I would kind of think that I'm just reading he'll going through it that it would really be everybody because it's it's of all nations and all being born you know we still have our distinctive cultural identity and some languages you know and like if my wife francophones first language is French if she comes out and starts people do some friends for me to be able to follow everything she says but or if I speak in English to somebody doesn't speak English but the good news is that we are the new Jerusalemites yeah people the City of God the people of gardens are home all of us were followers of the Lamb who is the rightful king of Israel just one so so be so we talk about the market being good so that in so the beast when it's not about the beasts s can miss talking about the ownership talk about owner or the mark of the beast on ownership and so the beast is safe the Satan or the Satan well the dragon is safe greatness enjoy yourself the beast is described in similar terms with the horns and then heads rolled out so that you know like like father like son yeah the Beast is the offspring of Satan and and then that you've got this prostitutes seated on the Beast dressed in purple which which was a high-class prostitute yeah yeah the ordinary prostitutes were slaves but this is a high-class prostitute normally prostitutes how much they charged was depending on how beautiful they were sitting to be you know that sexist the little things yeah evil you know so it's not like saying this is a good thing but imagine you know the world is attracted to this and yet she's she's sitting on this beast with with seven heads and ten horns but you've got this running contrast in the book of Revelation between Babylon and the New Jerusalem the you know Tale of Two Cities babbler the prostitute New Jerusalem the bride uh-huh most of the world lives for temporary gratification they live for Babylon but if we're willing to keep ourselves chaste before the Lord we're willing to be loyal to to Christ if we have faith to live for the future and keep ourselves pure but like the hundred forty-four thousand were said to be pure then we get to be the bride so again it's this choice you can live for this world you can really believe in the world to come and live and mind it becoming room Babylon is decked out with gold and pearls the New Jerusalem is built of gold and it's dates of girls yeah this will has nothing to compare with God's promises I I want I just want to ask you a question I don't know I don't want to catch up guard on there but I just you see and we talk about you talk about New Jerusalem what when you were as you're going through that I'm just curious what your commentary well I haven't got a yeah I'll go get it but what's what you come to the you know we always think especially maybe go on back a little bit to the dispensational getting caught up going up to it but really New Jerusalem we see we don't see people going up there we see I mean we see a safe on but we see New Jerusalem coming down and we don't hear very much commentary about that at least in today in today's environment what where were you or how did you deal about or what was your box concerning that revelation you have a major theme about you the contrast between heaven and earth right when it speaks they haven't dwellers that's good in this case the earth dwellers they're worshiping the Beast or person came to my chest and so on and so but the language is very similar to other gender and language like what you have in John's Gospel where the son came down from heaven haha he's going to send a heaven and so on so it's it comes from God and when it comes to the earth it's a new earth and it's been sure if I'd prepared for the kingdom of the Lamb okay well good so so the world isn't just I mean we worry about the symbolism of the you know the world has burned up everything I mean there's symbolism there but it's not I mean when you have a new heaven new earth it'd be like we're a new creation I mean God doesn't just trash our precious we may be transformed and so and so your Xperia yeah we have another indication of God's love for the earth I'm talking about talk about everything about the earth as a as a creation because God created it good very good and and Jesus of course was and clashed she became flesh which which you know signified that this is this is good me it was it had sinned and fallen but it fundamentally it was good and so New Jerusalem coming down is just another point of reference that God you know God's doing a work here and that this is not just you know you know something to be scorned Debbie it's this is not our home in the sense that in its present form it's right but it's it's going to be our home in its new form right paul says were citizens of heaven chris he said that the Libyans who were honorary citizens in Rome even though they've never been there yeah but that's Libyans 320 at the same time our citizenship is in heaven from which our Lord Jesus will come back ha ha and he's going to transform our bodies to be made like his own glorious body and I think that's when we'll be able to withstand the promise of his glory because we're like were five bodies and as the priests couldn't stand before the Lord example because of it the heaviness that the role of the glory of the Lord but he's going to give us bodies that will be able that will be suited for right nonstop worship and non-stop enjoyment of response right yeah and and and and it leads I mean it at least in my thinking I mean Paul says you know at one point he he he says hey don't you know you're going to be judges of angels so I mean there light goes on I mean there's there's activity is going on all of it to the glory of God all of it to bring you know great I mean and I mean it's uh yeah just one last question so through all of this what does your thoughts on our current past nation with a dispensational premillennialism I mean you want to go there do you want to or you out if you want do you want me to leave that for another time another huh that's sure yeah I mean if you look at revelation it's really relevant because it's a message for us debate as well and that is where some of the churches were suffering some of the other churches were compromising the values the scene world system that was killing the road the sisters elsewhere and it actually more the churches would compromise them than being persecuted with time the revelation was written and part of the message of Revelation is werden thesis it's going to get worse before it gets better so you need to be ready to suffer through Christ well you can you can recognize that whether your preacher or poster girl in truth right not read or whatever but in terms of this is teaching that the church will be raptured before the tribulation the wouldn't be also has said anybody who says that has simply never read the New Testament that's hyperbole obviously you know but you look at at what the passage is actually saying after my conversion will start pre-trib as well as a bunch of other things most of the doctrines I was taught were for sound but that one none of the texts seemed to me to say all there but I thought okay well you know I this is what I've been taught by people who know more than I do that's exactly to be honest with us exactly what I mean I I was pushing from my earliest recollection I mean I remember you know actually praying the prayer but I mean I when I was really young but at least for me to eat years old on but but I remember getting handed when I was like 19 20 it has to teach the book of Revelation I don't know why any 18 20 year old kid should be doing that but that you know and I basically used the hell is what I was taught and then we had some people in the church that had just come to the Lord and they didn't have the they had we had none of that with them and they started asking me questions and I actually teaching that that class and it was because I couldn't answer them and like you just said that as I started to read the scripture and when I actually read I started to go back and read instead of just the scripture here scripture there and you know I actually started doing if I did in the middle of a bird yeah that's exactly wrong and I'm just and and what happened to me as I thought and I don't get that so I actually stopped I just thought you know it's ridiculous I I don't get it and at the time I thought that I was wrong I thought I just don't get it if I don't get it I'm not going to teach it I'm wrong but I don't get it sold and I went on that but the more I read it that was kind of my thing - it took me a while but so I'm sorry I mean you read the verses in context I mean they made it so complicated where it's this is the rapture this is the second coming and really the texts there's no way you can separate out a lot of them and so I began to notice it didn't fit and a guest evangelist was very gracious with this time you can be aside and said no this is why you should create read every verse can we bring up I would look at it in context and saying look here it's talking you say this is the rapture before the tribulation this is talking about when Jesus comes in every I didn't see him I mean this is you know this is going to be after the tribulation up before it and finally after a few hours of this exasperated this was in the 1970s he he said well look all men of God have pre-trib Jim Baker's pre-trib Jimmy Swaggart that's random Jim Baker is no longer perturb but it was then all men of God pre-trib you've got to believe it and so you know what I said I said you went Who am I to to disagree with bone and abroad even though he looked at me like this wasn't what the scripture was saying so I went on my way and just try to keep my not think about it and and then I was visiting another congregation but my pastor was he didn't he didn't fight about it either way you know I mean he was pre-trib but he wasn't like anti you know other other views but this I was I was listening to somebody else and pointed out but nobody into 1830 believed in the pre-tribulation rapture you know and he named a bunch of men and women of God from our own time who didn't believe in what yeah and I was like well that means I can just be free to go back and look at it for myself so I determined I was going to go back and read the Bible just with this question in mind if I hadn't been taught either way yeah when I separate the rapture in the Second Coming I conclude there's no way but it was in fact sometimes people Michael Brown and I are going to be writing a book together on those tribulation rapture or just not pre-trib you live it it's all one that ratchets incoming at the same time and yet when people ask me what book I would recommend in this you know there's some Goodman's lads blessed hope was there the good really women hungry in church and tribulation is when I read them was younger but to be honest usually what I tell people is just okay read the New Testament you can also go back and read the end of 12 when you read read the Bible with this question in mind honestly because you fear the Lord and you want truth what I see that these are two simple comings or what I see that it's all the same thing and and then and then also get a book by a preacher relations like broadly look up all the verses in context you don't do the end of you being pre-trib yeah because it's not defensible right when we look at the verses and conscience you look at the arguments like the church will not live through the wrath of God versus no means one ten five nine and then they jump to Revelation and say look the tribulation is God's wrath well before you jump to Revelation how does Paul normally use the term wrath normally he's talking about like Hellfire for judgment at the second coming usually as we means and if you're going to jump in revelation from maybe the first book of the New Testament written into the last look at the new tests are written if you're gonna go to a book that the Thessalonians didn't have access to fine but Paul uses the Greek term or game or gay in the book of Revelation always refers to be a judgment never to the tribulation the term that's used for the tribulation dumas half the time even that one's used for the day of judgment so that argument actually is self refuting I mean it shows that and then people say okay well it has to be before the tribulation because it can come at any time no one knows the day nor the hour all the texts that talk about Christ's the imminence of Christ's coming every one of them where you can tell it all from the context is talking about is coming after the tribulation none of them in context talk about it coming before the tribulation which shouldn't be surprising because there's not a single text anywhere that says that he's coming before the tribulation there's not a single text anywhere that says the rapture happens at a different time in the Second Coming there's not a single text that says there are two last days when the resurrection of the last day and that blew I mean you can't have Laster than the last thing the last trumpet the resurrection to last trumpet window last enemy death is put down Chris Corinthians 15 well if the last enemy is death you can't have an antichrist afterwards and in the last trumpet if the resurrections the last trumpet well I think Paul knew about what Jesus said about us being gathered together at the end of the tribulation with the sound of a trumpet and you have that in verse Sicilians of 4 and 5 second Thessalonians 1 and 2 a whole lot of allusions back to what Jesus taught here the classic rapture passage were caught up in the air to meet the Lord in the clouds sound a trumpet goes back to what Jesus said about him coming in the clouds of heaven us being gathered to him and with the sound of a trumpet and there's so many points I mean I've found like 10 or 15 points in one paragraph verses lunians in that context where he's referring back to what Jesus taught and you view it in that light it's pretty clear Paul was believing in a rapture after you know at the very end uses the same language Garcia there's there's just so many the revelation if you're premillennial Revelation chapter 20 the first resurrection happens after the tribulation where do people get revelation 3:10 will say well he says the church in Philadelphia because you've kept my word I'll keep you from the hour of testing what does keep from being this mean preserve you or does it mean keep you from going through it actually that those two words toretto a car used together only one other place in the New Testament and that's John 17:15 where it specifically says Jesus specifically says father I pray not that you would take them out of the world but rather he would keep them from ie protect them from evil one it's just second Thessalonians chapter one will receive rest from our affliction rest from our tribulation when when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire you know the day of the Lord coming like a thief in the night you know suddenly unexpectedly what happens at the be able would coming like the people in like second Peter chapter three the heavens pass away with a great noise the elements melt with fervent heat but that's the beginning of the tribulation pray tell where are we going to have the tribulation I thought so I mean you've got this all the way through it's just inconceivable people continue to hold this you yeah I you know um I kinda said that you know the bit the one of the big reasons is because nobody wants to die you know yes that's true I mean so I mean it's always handy to think I mean unless I I'm not criticising curable did farm warned the king and God that I would ever do I mean he built the university of ghent but this is really no interest you know Jerry Falwell you know famously said he couldn't even though he wouldn't set the date he couldn't imagine that Christ's return would come you know he had to come before his death and of course but at the same time you know it's a good thing to be honest with you it's a good thing to all of us as Christians are schizophrenic because at the same time he's doing that he's you know he's building a university it won't really cracks me up is uh you know he you know he put a plan in place so that their football team was started with nothing you know he his goal was one day would play for a national championship well you know that's not good I mean that's that's you know that's got some type of a time horizon not just you know the world's gonna end tomorrow but be that as it may be you know so what you're saying but one of the thing the takeaways here is the way that the way that you understand well it's almost it's almost I guess you could take this either way but the way you understand Revelation or the way that you to understand Revelation changes you're if you look at it through new eyes rather than you know with kind of the things that have grown up around it you know that really are new like you were saying that have nothing to do with the Bible or sound interpretation and those are my words not yours I'm just saying it but but changes the way that you not only understand revelation but will live your life it is I mean has this is this isn't just well we're just going to take around here but this has real life and real faith in real future ramifications that right yeah Jesus is worth everything yeah you know in in Acts we see a different side of it we see the you know Paul his friends were Asia arcs you see that elsewhere in the bye week in terms of relation with with the people in the world we can have good cordial relations loving our neighbors that's what we're supposed to do that sound at the heart of Christian ethics but John's Gospel 15 25 for 1516 through 25 and also the book of Revelation give us another side of it that ultimately there's a dividing line in you're on one side of it or the other and we can expect the world secret we can expect you know Jesus if you want to be my disciple you have to take up your cross and bone you have to be ready to die so the moment we become believers in that sense our lives are portals so you know when we when we don't have to die for everything well praise God we get to live for right now but if we do die for everything we don't say oh oh I shouldn't have to die for my faith we say well this is what I signed up so I cheat Jesus has my life I live for him if I get to live for me I need to die for him well you know that's what I'm going to do second Thessalonians 2 people talk about well you loose string of lawlessness it doesn't identify the videos they're like 30 different major views other than it is but one thing it can't be is the church because it specifically says earlier in the chapter now concerning the coming the Persie of the Lord I'm sorry no I'm just one of the interpretations that the man of lawlessness would be the church no not the man of lawlessness the restrainer of the main applause oh okay I'm sorry I know I know I misunderstood that also is a win okay so so the so what you're saying is that the restrainer of the man of lawlessness cannot be the church okay that's okay so okay now I get it I'm sorry so what we're saying so because of because it's the chapter starts by saying now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to him and in Greek leezar these are connected and then for the end of the passage is going to speak again of the words coming his policy to wipe out the man of lawlessness well he says don't let anybody deceive you by any means because that won't happen the day of the Lord won't come so the day of already surroundings like a people a night beckon versus learning spine says that day will come the day will come or gathering the animal calm until the apostasy comes first or the rebellion translated either way there's neither net and a man of lawlessness sets himself up in the throne of God there's also a lot of debate about what exactly that means but what you can't say is that the restrainer of the man at Wilson's taken out before the mayor walls disappears is the church because he's just said that the church won't be gathered until the man of lawlessness appears so you know the restrainer could be God's restraining hand it could be in Daniel chapter 12 it says that Michael Israel's guardian Prince was protecting the Israel it stands out of the way so Israel can experience the tribulation you know they're different different a lot of different possible interpretations but we know that that one isn't we know that right wrong so it's so definitely a look and when they came up with it they were when they came up with pre-trib Darby wasn't trying to say the church won't be persecuted that may be what made the dunker popular but that's not what it was about I think you really wanted to do the missions didn't he I mean did he want to I mean he wanted to he wanted to he wanted to kind of stimulate the whole idea of we have to do this we've got to go into the world I mean wasn't that his elderly actually the idea of evangelizing all the world before Jesus comes post millennialist swear the ones deceased on that especially but you know whichever new you hold obviously Jesus said that and that's you know that's the one prerequisite yeah that's the one thing where we can be looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God was bringing a second Peter 3 the one and we can do to help get things ready but when when Darby came up with this it wasn't actually he didn't start with scripture references that's why in a bit very well right right he started with the premise God doesn't deal with Israel in the church at the same time of course 1948 and half and the other anything with that but but he started with the premise these they God doesn't deal with both the same time then he goes back and tries to find how that can work out with Scripture but it doesn't really fit yeah yeah we'll have to come back and talk about that some more sometime oh yeah I'm fasting by the I'd like to talk I'd like to pursue this it would take a whole session and in and I and I'm definitely not the one I would love to talk to someone who has thought the thought about it but the whole it you know of course we're we focus you mentioned about Israel coming back and and I you know my thoughts on that is Israel is everything Israel is nothing I mean both at the same time I mean you know there is I mean that definitely there's something there because God's promises are there and yet and yet you know we're all part of that thing and so I mean it's uh so it's you know I'm not really sure how to deal with with that because that I mean that's that them coming back as a nation that's with a lot of the dispensational premillennial is always point to and and I'm not saying that there's not a significance to that in some way but the Romans 11 is not talking about 1948 but ya talking I mean Messianic Jewish movement today maybe leading towards Romans 11 fulfillment and and and 1948 God that can fit into God's plan although that's not the consummation that we're looking towards and what it has to do with our lives of course even Romans 11 the funds of the Gentiles comes in first and so you're back to you know let's get with it with evangelizing the world yeah and and you have that in a number of passages yeah well we'll come back and visit above you know if if we ever have it if you ever get of course I could park out here every week and you have to get rid of me but but at some time perhaps we'll well with us what does the ones comment here coming out with well we think you could ask me when rapturous with is Lindsay once the commentary coming out with a revelation yeah oh that came out in the year 2000 oh that's that's been up but your other one the cultural one is coming out is the one that's gonna come out soon or doing the culture what else is up is already an that was up to that one came up to 16 yeah the woman working that Associa is an abbreviation of my because my axe commentary is 4,500 pages long so I'm doing a shorter one with Cambridge that'll be one volume that will be more accessible ittle bit like John Holland's I thought you know John Owens Alethia all the the the huge thing on Hebrew it said so you've got actually for the you have you have a four volume series in the book of Acts album which is which has been out and available but you're coming up with kind of a condensed version of that and taking it by yourself rather than letting editors go you're gonna go through yourself right yeah that was good yes and yeah I've got galatians coming out this year and yeah there's a bunch of a bunch of stuff I just I love God's Word but but that the pre-tribulation wisher actually for me was a turning point not just because of the eschatology I mean whether your preacher burr post-trib Jesus said you need to be ready to lay down your life for me uh-huh but what and I actually already at that time I've been beaten and had my life threatened for my witness on the streets sharing Christ on the streets where I'd been converted from but no let me it's a you're what you're saying is is you kind of went back to the old historic premillennialism is that hard or do you don't you think that's even modified mmm well whether in premillennial or amillennial like since the first day of the week right yeah yeah if I had to come down somewhere officially I'm premillennial because I'm that one more days of the weekly no more neo but I'm not really I don't have us I mean that's that's the interpretation in one passage it's not like pre-tribulation yeah I oh yeah I didn't mean I but I mean in term but I mean what you're saying is is that I mean the turning point would be would be away from the idea of that rapture that would be pressured with yeah so because that that's kind of the but what I was gonna say was the reason it was a turning point for me it was a training point hermeneutic lead because I decided from that point on I wasn't gonna just take it because this is what all men of God say yeah I was gonna go back and search the scriptures for myself and see what does God's Word say yeah and that changed the rest of her life of course the the caveat was that that wasn't what all God's people said opened up all new Vista yeah yeah well great I appreciate that that's uh that's that's good stuff and

Channel: PentecostalPastor.com

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Keywords: Keener Revelation, Craig Keener teaches Revelation, Craig R. Dumont, Craig Dumont, Conversation on the book of Revelation, Interpreting Revelation, Craig Keener commentary on Revelation, Pentecostal Pastor, New Testament studies, Revelation and symbolism

Id: SO-qYJbbHus

Length: 74min 57sec (4497 seconds)

Published: Thu Jan 25 2018