Did John Ever Actually Betray Dutch?

we've discussed the depths of Arthur's loyalty and Dutch's betrayal to the ones he supposedly loved most the gang he considered Family Once upon a time we've talked about Hosea seing Dutch's descent into madness long before it ever actually happened and we even touched on the exact moment JN can be seen beginning to have doubts about Dutch and even hosea's leadership but today I wanted to tackle a deeper topic behind it it's one that'll be covering the ending of both Red Dead Redemption games and some very important reasons as to why Jon is pushed to go after his former brothers in arms in the first game so if you haven't completed both games or you don't want anything spoiled for you I suggest maybe returning back to this video later but for the rest of you let's re-evaluate John and Dutch's relationship and see if Jon would ever have actually pulled the trigger on his adopted father it's dutch playing his games Hosea too getting involved with those two families Master con men working their magic I think it's best to begin at the moment where tension between between John Dutch and Hosea began that was when Jack was kidnapped by the braith weight family as retaliation for the gang's efforts of tricking them the kidnapping of Jack would trigger a deep regret within Jon he would begin to feel responsible for what he could only imagine was a terrible fate waiting for the poor helpless child in John's eyes Jack was being punished for his father's poor Life Choices Life Choices that went as far as disowning Jack as his own son and refusing to make his marriage to Abigail official Jon's doubt worry and lack of preparation as a father would be projected onto the poor boy and his mother and this was something that was apparent for everyone to see eventually this would all culminate with John leaving the gang for roughly a year even when he did return he wasn't fully present or willing to outright claim Jack as his son John would continue to go down this back and forth path of being dedicated as a family man to then switch his Focus from his new family to his commitment to the vanderin gang and that's off fence he would stay apprehensively on the top of until the kidnapping of backck Not only would it trigger John's dedication to his family putting them as His priority rather than the vanderland gang but this pivotal moment would give birth to what I believe is a real start to Dutch's Detachment from Jon that is to say if Dutch really forgave Jon for leaving for that year-long Hiatus that he took and he never actually held a grudge like Arthur did since there's no real evidence on that actually being the case I think it's safe to say Jack's kidnapping would be the moment where the relationship between these two would genuinely begin to fracture as John began to vent to AR about his misconduct as a father he would also begin to voice complaints about Hosea and Dutch blaming their miscalculation about the breth weight and gray family feuds and creating more of a problem for the gang with little if anything to show for it all this would of course all be expressed by Jon to Arthur in private on their way to Shady belt to relocate the gang from Clement's point in this isolated moment between Arthur and John it just comes off as frustration and remorse of the Fate that Jack has to now suffer through which is understandable but this is a mind State John would never be able to fully get out of which is also something Arthur is very quick to warn Jon about once he heads down that rabbit hole and continues to question and look deeper into Dutch and hosea's actions perceiving everything they do and everything they say through this negative filter he'll never fully get out of it by the time the gang sets out to rob the sand Bank Jon begins to become Bolder with his dissatisfaction of Dutch's leadership and plead to do just one more job he would publicly question Dutch and criticize what his final goal is and whether if he's actually capable of achieving that goal without more unfortunate circumstances befalling the rest of the vanderin Gang This Is It gentlemen the last one where have we heard that before what has happened to you John you lost all your heart I'm just trying to stay real about all this real oh how I detest that word so devoid of imagination sure it comes off disrespectful and a little confrontational perhaps it's still some of J's own personal dissatisfaction and REM Mor being projected with some real concerns mixed in that undoubtedly must be laying heavy on everyone's Minds had this been a situation in public display of Doubt at a much earlier point of the game maybe Dutch wouldn't have taken it so personal perceiving Jon is openly betraying him but the entire chapter is s Andes riddled with Dutch being a different person the Gilling of anelo Bronte was seemingly uncharacteristically brutal of him to do and it was only going to get worse with the death of Hosea moments after John questioning him by the time the gang members returned from their halish vacation on guarma it was clear dud had made up his mind about his former adopted son whether if he came to the conclusion by himself or was gently pushed in the direction of believing JN or Abigail or possibly both were responsible for the failure of the sandon bank robbery it was clear saving John from Cisco was not really a priority of his at least not at the top of it when John did return back to camp at Beaver Hollow D's less than warm welcoming would further deepen a rift between the two of them a rift that Jon had inadvertently created by openly questioning Dutch as the chapter of beaver Hollow continued we'll see Dutch continue to distance himself from both JN and Arthur with it eventually culminating and him claiming Jon was shot and killed during the gang's final robbery on the train carrying the Army's payroll Jon would be left behind Again by his former father and leader disguising this betrayal as a mistake that he didn't know that Jon had actually survived during the final confrontation between Arthur and Micah what's never really pointed out is during this reveal Jon was visibly heard by his father's actions before there was enough benefit of the doubt but here it was just too much Dutch John you left me you left me to die my boy I didn't have a choice John I didn't you I didn't have a choice left me the pain anger and confusion all visibly affected JN deeply Dutch made no actual attempt to save him he just left him on the the side of the train tracks claiming that he did all he could interestingly despite everything John suspected Dutch of doing from allowing him to get captured and Son the KNE being okay with leaving him to rot in CIS Penitentiary and even slowly letting M replace him and Arthur as Dutch's favorite JN still felt a sense of loyalty to Dutch I mean it took Arthur twice both during very pressing times to give Jon the talk he needed to hear to be loyal to what matters take your family and get lost the thing about Jon's character throughout all of Dead Redemption 2 is he comes off as very indecisive his priorities became realigned after Jack's kidnapping switching from the vanderlin gang to his family but the commitment to just leave with them is never acted upon until it's forced on to him to be fair he really doesn't have a choice he is wanted by the law the same as they all are but Dutch this gang it's all he's ever known I'm not saying John had a weak character or wasn't capable of doing whatever was necessary more so it's difficult to break the patterns and habits you've been ustom to your whole life even during the game's epilog years after running with the gang Abigail is on John's case for being a brutal Outlaw just like before and just as it's difficult to break away of thinking reacting and living as you've done your entire life it's not as easy to just condemn the man who raised you who taught you how to read write and carry yourself Dutch was the person who did more for these people at vulnerable times in their life than anybody else ever did many of them he took them in when they were children John being one of them and no matter how much Dutch has lost his way and turned his back on them those early years can't be undone the epilogue of Red Dead Redemption 2 would be filled with little word on Dutch it's more so with the characters that do remain Charles sad and John reflecting on what the hell happened during the later stages of the vanderland gang if Dutch really lost his mind if he had gone crazy if he had gotone sick was Micah really responsible for everything and while there's small moments here and there of Sadie Charles and John talking about what would happen or what they would do if they ever came into contact with Micah there's only one conversation where John actually addresses what he thought about Dutch you heard anything of Dutch nothing you no you'd think he's a colorful character word would get out that's one way of putting it look what happened with the gang changed everyone who was a part of it the Dutch who put a blanket around me after the o'driscolls that weren't the same man at Beaver Hollow and now he might not be so colorful no more you see a man whose character changed I see a man who got found out for who he truly was we was fools to follow him I was a fool and I paid for it and I was one of the lucky ones MAA John MAA is the one who said it off I blame me for following Dutch for too long but I blame m for most everything else there's no word on anyone looking for Dutch or what happened to him Beyond just a little bit of curiosity if there's anyone they Phil deserves to receive a visit from them it's Micah sad steers a conversation to remind John Micah is responsible for everything DCH may have left JN twice and chose his side back at be rollow but it was Micah who's going to get what's coming to him that's the mentality of Charles sad and John when the trio catch wind of Micah camping out on top of Mount Hagen they went for a blood payment and it was Micah's to feel nut's presence was wholly unexpected hello son Mrs Adler it's been quite a while the two of them would have words and betraying and shooting at each other and it would end with Dutch turning on Miga glaring at JN as he walked by his son who would only be able to must the phrase thank you regardless of everything that happened I think JN in this game spoke about Dutch from a perspective of both pain and confusion regardless of his apparent frustration he wasn't willing to turn the trigger on Dutch the situation between these two and those that did remain in the area would be drastically different some years later where's Dutch Marston he got away scared to shoot him too much to handle the year is 1911 John hasn't seen Dutch in at least a solid 3 years their last interaction was in 1907 on top of Mount Hagen despite not seeing Dutch in almost half a decade or running with the gang of Outlaws in a full decade John is forced by the Bureau of Investigation to deal with Bill Williamson who's causing trouble in the region in new Austin bill would eventually flee the country to the region of noo pariso at Mexico placing Javier squea on John's Hit List as well now during this game JN is much older much more Cutthroat than he was in the years before his family and the life he worked so hard with his wife Abigail was all forced to be put on hold by The bureo Who are holding his wife and son as captives until he does their bidding and that is bringing down the people used to ride with which for simplicity's sake is Bill Williamson Javier squa and then towards the end of the game it's rumored Dutch is back in the region of Blackwater now during this game JN is very much a morally gray character but it's quite obvious he's still willing to do whatever it takes to get his family back that's still his bottom line while he does what the bureau asks of him he also clearly very much hates every part of it now originally he would attempt to take the path of least resistance and reason with Bill to quietly give himself up instead of going guns blazing there's an exchange between the two of them that betrays a little Sympathy for the people JN used to know so well and of course he couldn't be bothered with falling into this line of work or dealing with people wrapped up in this lifestyle he has renounced so many years ago but for those of us that have played this game we know JN would end up being shot here sparking the series of events that end up with the death of Bill and the incarceration or killing of Javier Javier is the only character that the player can decide lives or dies by John's hand but when it comes to Dutch the situation is is much more complicated with Bill and Javier there would be an exchange and of course some type of reunion but there's no mistake JN is after them and his life has sent him down an entirely different path it's also important to note that whenever John has this exchange with both Bill and Javier the only people that could potentially get hurt are those on either side they're either lawmen they're Outlaws or they're in the middle of the war going on in Mexico when Dutch is introduced he's in the middle of a bank robbery a fairly violent one in the center of Blackwater and he's holding a civilian woman at gunpoint similar to Bill and Javier this is the first time Dutch and John will see each other in some years so there is some level of reunion Dutch would question him how his son and of course Abigail is doing and how Jon is but it's still a very intense reunion if we can call it that Dutch is inching closer to the exit with a woman at gunpoint and during this interaction Dutch would also begin to insult a John talking about how he married a [ __ ] and everybody had Abigail at one point in time but John married her so that made makes him the better man Dutch would say John was always a romantic short and he can have the girl it's a parying gift from Dutch to John we all had her but he married her and you know that makes him a better man than us he's a better man have the girl John easy Dutch she's a pardon gift from me no God damn JN and the sheriffs from Blackwater would pursue Dutch and his new gang but Dutch would end up getting away Edgar Ross would then question Jon's ability and willingness to put Dutch down to which John rebuttal when the opportunity presents itself he'll put a bullet in him he won't like himself for doing it but he'll get it done as an isolated incident disregarding the knowledge we have from Red Dead Redemption 2 on where Dutch and John last left off it's a compelling reunion this entire time there's rumors of Dutch being in the area and recruiting natives as well as any Outlaws in the area willing to rally behind Dutch's leadership just scraping together the bottom of the barrel Far Cry in terms of the quality of Arms Dutch once had at his disposal for his first time exposure to Dutch especially after hearing Jon talks so highly of him throughout the game and the moments where he does bring Dutch up until the end where he went crazy and left him to die it's an introduction for a man who has built up so much that I think pays off but knowing how the last time they saw each other went and witnessing Dutch's descent down a path of anger and narcissism and using anyone when he could as collateral this moment here within the bank perfectly displays just how far Dutch went in that direction even when he spoke to John on Mount haen he still had an air of Doubt to him that just maybe he can still be somewhat redeemed here he spoke warmly to Jon calling him son positioning himself where you can't quite tell where he stands between Micah and John and with the whole narrative in that game as Dutch went downhill it was almost as if you were dealing with two different people when it came to Dutch and those that did follow him could couldn't tell whether if he lost his way or if this is the person that he's always been the only way to really betray that he's kind of lost his way and he's not the man that he was before is that he's visibly unkempt he grew a beard his hands are dirty he's not as clean cut as before even if he's as charismatic and eloquent as ever here in the bank the uneasiness and unpredictability Factor still present as it was on Mount Hagen however there's almost no hope for any good outcome Jon is now hunting him and Dutch well he's become accustomed to enjoying the life of a CO blooded killer JN would make an offer for Dutch to surrender without a fight as he does with Javier and Bill but this would just result in the death of a poor girl and John being accused of being afraid of putting Dutch down the thing about the bank encounter is that sure we can say it wasn't John's fault he tried to rationalize with a man who gave him so much and it backfired despite their past here is still an olive branch for narrative reasons or even if we go down the route of deepening Jon as a character and say he was overwhelmed with so much emotion at seeing Dutch for the first time after so years dud had already inspired mixed emotions but now with his family at stake and hating the side that he was fighting for basically forcing him to come to face Dutch yet again a man that he sworn off many years ago as he's done to him whatever the reason for Dutch's Escape here after this the tables will turn Dutch would appear in blackwat shooting out the window of the hotel John's at telling him he's going to kill John purely for the sport of it a few days later John would track down the location of Dutch's camp out on tall trees where Dutch would shoot at at him narrowly missing and hitting the binoculars Jon was looking through and Dutch's action supported by his attitude towards Jon and Red Dead Redemption 2 might have betrayed Jon was out of his good graces caring less and less for what happened to his former son as long as it doesn't involve him being brought down with him now in this game it's evident Dutch is an actual threat Bill and Javier may have made it difficult for Jon to track them down and Jon of course would meet some Fierce resistance at times but neither one of them had the audacity to chase after JN personally nor do it in a way that was so nonchalant you and and and your friend there the professor we're going to kill the both of you why you want to do a thing like that I don't know sport I guess John had every reason multiple instances across both games that there would only be one way this would end between the two of them one of them would end up in a body bag yet even in the final moments to do what he had to do after being left for dead abandoned multiple times willing to be hanged and shot at by Dutch a handful of times in the final moments he would hesitate offering Dutch one a final chance to Just Surrender I can't fight my own nature that's a paradox John you see then I have to shoot you as Jon stood over the lifeless body of Dutch Edgar Ross would come over and mock him about his inability to kill the infamous Dutch Vander John would respond by saying why does it matter the Man's dead it's the end of an era despite giving Jon multiple reasons to further justify putting him down from his family being at stake to everything Dutch has done to him I mean even when it came to Bill and Javier as well as Dutch seeing the safe return of his family going back to the life he has subscribed himself to for the last few years and redeeming himself in the eyes of the society he hated so much in his youth was Noble of enough reason as you can get to do what he's forced to do of course he was raised and lived by a code of honor and loyalty and that dictated how he moved and carried himself a lifetime ago and perhaps it was one deep down that he still struggled to go against as he brings up how they left him for dead years ago as added justification for what he's doing now as if to justify himself further that it's okay to put these men down when he does talk about being left for dead when it comes to Bill and Javier he does talk as if the blame and responsibility for what happened to him is put on the shoulders of Dutch he was the leader after but when it comes to Dutch he's not as willing to put him down as he was with Bill or Javier on the final R up to Dutch's camp with the Army and Bure agents taking part in The Raid to see to it that Dutch has finally brought down John expresses that Dutch is a better more honest man than all of them he was a good man and went Upon a Time who did more good for the poor than the government ever did and at least Dutch would shoot people in the front not from behind like these civilized people the agents claim to be all the way into the very end dut is still the lesser of to evils in J's eyes he never really held a grudge or S out Vengeance for anything or everything Dutch ever did to him or was expected of doing to him one of the last few words John says to Dutch is he has to shoot him and that's in response to Dutch saying he can't give up fighting is in his nature from Mount Hagen the time in the bank and now here JN certainly had opportunities to deal with Dutch on his own terms if it wasn't for him being forced he would have never come looking for Dutch if he never settled into an honest life finally committed himself to his wife and son son as he should have done long before he obviously would not be put in this position despite the position that he's in along with everything he's been put through killing Dutch was never on the table I don't think it would have been even if Dutch was to pull out the revolver and open fire on Jon and Jon was to shoot him I don't think it would have been a fatal shot it definitely would have been enough to apprehend him but not enough to kill him in his own way in a way that allowed him to still be committed to his family do right by them to settle into an honest safe life he was still loyal to Dutch only now the Loyalty was giving him another chance at a new life how much of a life that really was riding in jail or being hung by his neck for everything he's done throughout his life that's debatable at least he wasn't the one putting him down Dutch killing himself in the end worked out for everyone it up John avoids something he never wanted to do something he probably as he said would come to hate himself more for potentially being the thing that he hated himself most for it would also help Dutch go down on his own terms in the end it's IR iic how dutches perceived betrayal by Jon pushed him down his own path that saw him break off from Dutch but didn't see the death of the love for the man who raised him even when that man was shooting at him and giving him every reason in the book to make everything easier for him

Channel: Cynic

Views: 25,694

Keywords: cynic, red, dead, redemption, rdr2, reddead, red dead, red dead redemption, reddeadredemption, red dead redemption john marston, john marston, john rdr2, john marston and dutch van der linde, red dead news, red dead redemption news, was john ever willing to shoot dutch, john was always loyal to dutch, johnmarston, dutchvanderlinde

Id: felNM-nD3YM

Length: 21min 17sec (1277 seconds)

Published: Mon Jul 01 2024