Debate: Virgin Mary (Walter Martin vs Mitch Pacwa)

tonight John Ankerberg will examine the evidence concerning the position of Mary in the Roman Catholic Church and why it is that Protestants disagree the high elevation of Mary can be seen by examining the church's current teachings and papal encyclicals Roman Catholicism teaches today that Mary is the mother of God Pope Pius the 12th encyclical in 1943 said she is the mother of our head Catholicism claims Mary is full of grace therefore free of original sin and kept from all actual sense the Pope's encyclical agree claiming Mary is free from any personal or imperative lenez Catholicism asserts that Mary is perpetually a virgin that is Mary was a virgin not only before but during and after the birth of Jesus in addition to Follis ISM claims Mary was bodily assumed into heaven where she now reigned with Christ the folks encyclical says Mary now glorified in body and soul reigns together with her son although it is not yet officially sanctioned Catholicism has given to Mary the title of va tricks of all graces and the Pope has agreed teaching it was an answer to Mary's all-powerful prayers that the divine Redeemer spirit was given to the newly born church and by her intercession obtains from him that his Jesus abundant streams of grace to all the members of the mystical body another title not yet officially sanctioned but still given to Mary is that she is co-redemptrix with Jesus the Pope affirmed this in his encyclical by teaching Mary offered Jesus to the Father for all the children of man who are defiled by Adam's unfortunate Falls and by bearing for immeasurable sorrows she has supplied what was lacking in the suffering of Christ for his body the church Protestants believed Catholicism has elevated Mary to godhood for example Protestants can agree that Mary was the honored mother of Jesus who was God but object to using the title mother of God claiming it sets up a misrepresentation in most people's minds Protestants maintain that all Christians believe God is eternal and without beginning therefore he has no mother both sides agree that Mary was the mother of Jesus who was both God and man but she did not add the vinegar to Jesus's human nature therefore Protestants say the title mother of God should be flopped because it is a misleading term secondly Protestants believe it is not biblical to teach that Mary was conceived without original sin and committed no actual sin during her life Thomas Aquinas the supreme theologian of the Catholic Church declared that only a sinner needs a savior and Mary must have been a center since she stated my spirit rejoices in God my Savior Protestants also think this doctrine deprives Christ of his uniqueness as the sinless one third to say Mary is full of grace does not mean as Catholicism implies that Mary is finless scripture also says Steven Elizabeth Barnabas and others were full of great yet no one claims they were sinless forth Protestants do not believe that Mary was a perpetual virgin the Bible according to Matthew 12 and March 6 plainly shows Mary had other children v Protestants insist that Scripture nowhere teaches that Mary was assumed bodily into heaven and finally Parsons insists that Mary cannot be comedia tricks are co-leading tricks with Jesus since the Bible states there is only one mediator between God and man the man Christ Jesus and only Jesus can forgive a man's sin so tonight both sides will present the evidence concerning the place of Mary in Christian thinking John's guests are father Mitchell Paco an ordained Roman Catholic priest who is a member of the Society of Jesus a Jesuit he has an earned doctorate philosophy degree and is currently professor at Loyola University in Chicago John second gift is dr. Walter Martin director and founder of the Christian Research Institute in California we invite you to join us for this discussion tonight we're talking about the claims and the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church and my first guest is an ordained Roman Catholic priest Father Mitchell Pacwa who's a member of the Society of Jesus the Jesuits this also earned a doctorate philosophy degree and is currently a professor of Old Testament law at Loyola University in Chicago our second guest is dr. Walter Martin director and founder of the Christian Research Institute in California Walter is the author of many books especially the classic classic book known as the kingdom of the cults both Protestants and Catholics read German I like to start tonight with the topic of Mary and here's an issue that has divided Catholics and Protestants down through the years and seems to be going that direction even more so I think we ought to start off by saying that that there's no doubt about the fact that Mary the mother of Jesus deserves a high honor in the church she was picked out to be the mother of Jesus and in Scripture says that she responded to God's call to her and she herself said henceforth all generations shall call me blessed and I don't think that anyone holding the inspiration of the scripture would deny the fact that Mary needs to be honored and recognized for the great things that she has done but the problem comes with some of the other statements that the Roman Catholic Church is making and in fact Walter let's start with you this week in terms of the fact of what do you see happening with the things being said about married maybe you could outline those things you'd like to talk about considering the progress so for Mary and what you think about that biblically I think primarily as you that nari with the greatest woman that ever lived the mother of our Savior and as that should be honored of all women there's no doubt about that however there's been a perversion of the doctrine of Mary now I think that we should define what this perversion is and you ask the question what's the Immaculate Conception what's taken place as I have observed and I'm sure we'll get some dialogue in this subject pretty quickly is that Mary parallels Christ in Catholic theology first of all she is proclaimed to be the mother of God she is proclaimed to be immaculately conceived which means that she was conceived without the stain of original sin she is proclaimed to be perpetual virgin she is proclaimed to have an assumed bodily into heaven after her death which means that she was transformed into a new body she is proclaimed cling of heaven she has proclaimed media tricks of all graces which maintains that as Christ dispenses redeeming Grace to mankind Mary will with him had the final word as to who will or will not received that grace of God and finally number seven as co-redemptrix of the universe now these are what I would call seven steps to deity because mother of god obviously is a term which is indicative of an enormous lehigh position to that she is perpetually virgin means that she was forever throughout her life maintained free from sin she was immaculate conception nature her mother was a that means more to correctly her mother and yes conceived Mary without the stain of original sense I have it correctly she was free from all sin original in person oh yes you go that she is assumed into heaven bodily parallels resurrection of Christ so Immaculate Conception parallels the virgin birth the perpetual virginity free of actual sin parallels the semblance of Christ during his earthly life the bodily assumption into heaven paralleled the resurrection of Jesus Christ the Queen of Heaven parallels Christ as king of the universe media tricks of all graces parallels Christ as mediator and Coler dem tricks of the universe participates with him in the redemption of mankind all of these have raised her step-by-step to the place where Pope Pius the 12th in the Marian year in which you proclaim the Assumption of Mary said enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxiety world we kept ourselves into your arms o immaculate mother of Jesus and our mother Mary God crowned you queen of the universe Oh crystal fountain of faith bathes our minds with eternal truths or fragrant lily of all holiness captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume o conquerors of evil and death inspiring us a deplorable Orwell beloved of God here the ardent cries which rise from every heart and this year dedicated to you convert the wicked dry the tears of the afflicted in the oppressed comfort the poor in the humble quench hatred sweet and harshness in your name resounding harmoniously in heaven may they recognize they're all brothers and finally happy with you we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars you are all beautiful Oh Mary you are the glory you are the joy you are the honor of our people sorry about that she is not the crystal fountain of faith Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of faith she is not the glory in joy and honor of Christians Jesus Christ is our glory and him as the hope of glory Christ is one we honored and it's pretty obvious just from reading throughout the prayer that titles are conferred upon her which belong to God convert the wicked and dry the tears of the afflicted is the job of the Holy Spirit who convinces the world of sin and of righteousness and judgment it is the comfort that she is giving allegedly that is the very reason Jesus sent the Holy Spirit which was to be our comforter now giving Mary all her due right all the positions she is entitled to she is not our life our sweetness and our hope and that we have to confess in the Catholic Church in which we say our life our sweetness and our hope to thee we cry poor banished children of Eve now Mary is not our life Jesus Christ is our life she is not the sweetness of our life he is the sweetness of her life she certainly isn't our hope because Christ in you is the hope of glory well I'm objecting to from a biblical perspective is it the Mary of the Bible is not the Mary of Catholic theology we have now developed what Archbishop Bishops krausmeyer said in 1870 we have made a goddess of the Virgin Mary clothes cook now that I think is what probably obsessed Protestants more than any other thing possibly infallibility of a person which is the idea that Mary a mere creature created by God is paralleled in Catholic theology dogmatically with Christ himself so the Cardinal Spellman in New York wrote Oh Mary gate of heaven none shall enter in except through thee sorry about that sorry I am the way the truth and the life I am the door of the sheepfold I am the gate by me if any man enters in he shall be saved what we see in Catholic theology is the blasphemy of attaching to a woman even her high position the titles and position and offices of God and that's why I feel very strongly that we must deal with it at ibaka come on back yelling he agree or disagree first of all oh I hope that you know you don't come too close to blasphemy telling us to against the mother God the ohm a lot of things on and there's a lot of sub points to try to deal with and I won't be able to go all of them so we'll go on yet yeah first of all being titled America's definitely develop and no way to deny them but they developed in the council's because of defining who Christ is to call her the mother of God is essential for the faith because otherwise it to say that Jesus God and man is not God as long as we all understand what is that lamenting and that is the point Oh call her the mother of God well I call it simply the mother of Christ is as if to separate Christ's divinity from his humanity and that cannot be done by anybody Orthodox you have to call Jesus God and man in the moment of its conception and at no other moments beyond that and therefore from that moment on she is the mother of God and we have to employ councils that define her as mothers God did it because of trying to protect our understanding that Jesus is God from the moment of his conception and not one second later I don't see any problem with with that there may be Walter does I did the Greek I like myself and well if you're saying that she is the one that produced God no and Catholic notes never taught that but it's not like that does know that is only what people who teach heresy would teach but this because the Catholic Church never teaches that a human creature can ever produce divinity she's the mother of Jesus Christ God and man are therefore the mother of God because Jesus is God that it's based on a floral syllogism I was taught Jesus is God Mary is the mother of Jesus therefore Mary is the mother of God you were - all right let's take that syllogism and apply it God is Trinity yeah Mary is the mother of God Mary is the mother of the Trinity the same logic called was devastated and she is the mother of God the Son second person absolutely God in human flesh she gave him a human nature and was also Hilliard but not serious we never have said that she's the mother of the Trinity I know that I'm just trying to show that the syllogism which we have which leads us to the conclusion is only a rod only if you take a to the mother Verity and that is never taken to that point so I ought to point with David is heresy to say she is the mother of God it's because of you our community the problem with it is that you've been in the green with historian and area ever well that's exactly what they tried to deny okay what much is the mother but I like it is such that in your time his divinity I like men I can I can see your basis for saying that but you're getting on to the next four and I don't see your basis all right look move on the other things about it the definitions are married and you know and what what she is again always took place ancillary to defining crust okay throughout the history of the council's if you have in disagreeing with that yeah one disagreement with that the council's do not define Christ the New Testament defines Christ the councils confirm the text but they define what that authentic and Orthodox faith has to be in from Scripture because all the people who claim to read scripture well do not and they pervert the doctrine of the New Testament and so the councils make it clear what that definition is but the but the Roman Catholic publications I have tell me and I can produce the references quite easily that's all that is necessary for salvation all that is necessary for salvation is contained in Holy Scripture right and it's also all contained in tradition oh I will get the tradition right now but which is contained in all the scriptures right scan is right enough if that's true and the father's reproduced all but six verses of Holy Scripture within three centuries right plus the text in the main is correct but that's true right then you didn't need councils to define what they recognize is the already existing body of truth the councils were call for her to deal with heretical doctrine right and one of the reasons that they do along with pride in OSA reticle doctrines is to clarify who Christ is they also make the statements about Mary and that's and that's all that okay let me let me push you right on what you're saying then then the council found this in Scripture the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception maintains that the Most Blessed Virgin Mary in the first instance of her conception right when she was born by a unique grace and privilege of the omnipotent God in consideration of the merits of Christ Jesus the savior of the human race was preserved free from all stain of original sin the doctor revealed by God and therefore must be firmly and constantly held by all the faithful would you tell me where the council got that from Scripture okay first of all you know when you know Mary is addressed by the angel she's said to be the one of grace okay never say on so Costa I not so the third again what we're talking about their focus we're talking about dealing with her in terms Immaculate Conception yeah and the thing about knows the angels addressed is to call her the one that you know the greatest one the ones that look great it sends your own translate one bullet waves and the center of grace and sin being incompatible with each other led to the doctrine of the church being believed by everybody it's not a fact the doctrine that you to give there is defined only in 1850s and it's based on the faith of the community now that's been our important that's a very important statement in and let me finish this I was a statement that refutes one of things you said it and you said on falsely answers of what we believe we do not believe that Mary is sinless apart from the merits of Christ and whether declaration on eunetta conception said she is filled with only because of the merits of Christ and if she could not be seen with any other way quite a marry off her sacrifice in Luke 2:21 percent where did the favor was for her sin if you are and that really offered well what's that uncleanness and open in Jewish Studies as is usual milk does not mean anything necessarily something principal princes if a human being touches the Scriptures you become unclean there does defecting the Bible may be a committed sin was it at cinema vit occurs twelve enough to have a sacrificial offering if you touch the Bible you have to you have to go to Venus I'm saying is why did she think that she had to offer that offering if what you're saying is true okay because along with touching scripture another sacred item is blood and afterbirth for a month or so I'm told I've never given birth but they I'm told that the women continues to have a boot I'm bleeding and so that period of waiting before sacrifice is to make sure the bleeding stopped after giving birth and then the woman is you know considered to be sacred she also has to be something after her period not because that's a sin but because the blood she said is sacred as is all blood and so a sacrifice is often well now Mary goes ahead and offers the sacrifice and not understanding over offering the sacrifice that she had no need to but you did to obey the Jewish law just like Jesus had no need to be circumcised it was he had no need to offer to turtle does for himself but they were offered he had no need to pay the temple tax but he did the Gino never sign remains and she obeys Jewish law to her son who had no Nico's a Jew I know all too want to jump in on it but you also have a straight vote by Mary herself at that point but also one of the things that in terms of 100 look right on that point you know we'll go on because one of the things that in all sets of you to miss a lot of stuff well let me get a response on what we're talking about her legs very homeless yeah a lot of stuff yeah look you said something very important it's really a key mhm you said the Immaculate Conception in 1854 was the result of the long centuries of the accumulated community of the church right right don't you listen to some of the long centuries Clement of Alexandria the word Jesus Christ alone was born without since Agustin Bishop of Hippo one of the greatest theologians in the church he Christ alone being made a man but remaining God never had any sin OD take on flesh of sin though he took flesh of the sin of his mother Ambrose of all that they're born of women the holy Lord Jesus was the only one who experience not the contagion of earthly corruption Saint Bernard for this reason our astonishment is not small in seeing that some of you would believe to be able to introduce a new feast that is unknown to the right of the church that cannot be approved by reason that it is condemned by the ancient traditions the Feast of the Immaculate Conception you and Bernard do not agree and he's canonized and that you're not what what did I finished well I'm not from there but I wanted to think about you know it Bernard is that he was wrong because it was a long existing feast often called the defeat of Saint Anne given Berger conceding Mary and was a program Immaculate Conception but it was a saint in conceiving Maryland recognized English oh no I don't think was one of the things about Bernhard statements is that he does not deny the Immaculate Conception as it's understood he denied in his statement that you're quoting there's an quote the rest of it that she was even either to Immaculate before she was conceived and st. Thomas Aquinas makes the same denial neither Thomas More Bernhard of belief that Mary was sinless before she was conceived but although then she would sell us afterwards either they don't say that but let me give it a resting when they give it to you what honor should we believe in attributing to Mary that honor maybe had you say for her consumption Thomas which was anterior to her birth because without his conception neither Herbert should be honored then would you say if others according to your own reasoning we're to maintain that it is necessary to hold feasts and honor the parents this is logical it's the angelic doctor then it would be necessary to honor her grandparents and her great-grandparents and it would be no end at all there would be feast without number on the earth and it would be converted into a paradise again as Thomas Aquinas okay again Peter Lombard but this is asked on what account and whence is it that Mary was conceived without original sin we say this was impossible Melkor kena's famous professor of Canon Law and dogmatic theology on the subject the dog behold the Blessed Virgin was freed from the original sin was nowhere delivered in Holy Scripture say 99 is if the Scriptures are duly considered and the sayings of the doctors ancient modern who have been devoted to the glorious virgin it is plain from their words she was conceived in sin close quote Leo the first the Lord Jesus Christ alone among the sons of men was born without sin Pope Kalidas it belongs to the Immaculate lamb to have no sin Gregory the first Christ alone was true born wholly innocent the third eve was produced without sin but she brought forth in sin Mary was brought forth in sin but she brought forth without sin [Music] come to that contused reaffirmation here of a dogma that mary is exalted by the Lord is queen of all yeah and she presented him Jesus that is to the Father in the temple was United with Jesus and suffering as he died on the cross and an utterly singular way she cooperated by her obedience faith hope and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to Souls taken up to heaven she did not lay aside the saving role but by her manifold acts of intercession continues to win for us gifts of eternal salvation therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the church under the title of advocate and mediator now let me ask you this where is that coming in Scripture okay a piece odd important text first of all you know Christ at the cross said to the unnamed of assumed John rather disciples is causing the Beloved Disciple you hold your mother you hold the son and we understand that to be a giving up this mother to all of us this must be understood if the body of the church is the body of Christ the mother of Christ is therefore our mother as well second more direct relationship to that is in is of course in the book of Revelation chapter 12 where the woman clothed with the Sun crown with twelve stars standing on the moon gives birth to the Messiah and it's no nation and it certainly cannot be the church there because the church does not give birth to Jesus Jesus gives birth of the church only one woman gave birth to Jesus and that's the woman who is crowned with the Sun seen clothed with the Sun crown with the Stars with the moon under her feet that is in a cosmic creature then also in Luke's Gospel we see that when Simeon you know confronts her at the temple said Anna sword shall pierce your heart so that the sins of men as they insert the inner spot of many might be revealed so that she has a role there by her suffering and her heart being pierced to reveal the inner thoughts of many others one of the other things that that's important to understand her role is the great six maybe eight tricks and so on is that when it's defined it is said to in no way add to what Jesus does or subtract from what Jesus does how about if you can if you cannot if it can't be evil in any sense of adding a subtract over them call a dentist in this in many ways the way all of us have to be in that role hole means with scoldings with but again in the church is clear to make sure that you know you can't do it with without her in the sense that you would never know who jesus is without her unless Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary God is spending and daughters incarnate could not be made known to us that it is through her that the personality of God is a big no medicine very helpful here be very careful here because you just committed the fallacy of limiting the omnipotence of God and saying but if he didn't do it this way he can't do it and you can't say can that's right and the same thing has to be put on your face as well because that shoe means that God can assume her to heaven as he took up a light into knowledge to if he wants to and as you raise up all the people from the dead when Jesus died and if you can raise those people up many people who don't know Elijah you do and Enoch we believe in this would be very self then caning I think his own mother who he must have chosen from all eternity he did not pick a woman at random there was no robbery there was nothing like that but a single game the issues that God chose for all eternity that this woman would be chosen and their wives makes making her blessed of all women so much so that when she approaches and she speaks the first announced of this birth of Jesus John and the room is quickened by the spirit and so is Elizabeth and they respond in the Holy Spirit to her again repeated here but you want a weapon of all wonder but you will tell her you want to respond to the Mary of Scripture not to the Mary of dogma the Mary of Scripture okay says whatever my son says to you do they do it absolutely the son said that you are to consider him the mediator right there is one God one intercessor between God and man the man Christ Jesus but all those things just now now in New Testament theology mm-hmm no one is mediator but Messiah its Christ to offer the one sacrifice to sin forever sit down at the right hand of God enters the heavenly heaven a collaboration where ever after the add another words avec Christ alone who intercedes right now Mary is no no one has ever given any position of mediation accepts that prayer that we can offer on earth for each other but no one is media tricks of all graces no one is Kohler dentists at the universe well again so say you got so little the New Testament and New Testament doesn't say that you assume that the New Testament means that an article sounds exactly and which you are also making my I'm saying the text says that there's one of the air but at the same time look at that they're about the islands look at the text says that you have a pro giant that's a mount Mount Zion beaver City the Living God Jerusalem for heaven - heaven Jerusalem veneers of angels so they set out an assembly and a church or an assembly or of the first boys who have been enrolled in the heavens and to the judge and to God the judge of all men and to the spirits of just men made perfect rise and on into a covenant of a new to a new covenant and to Jesus our mediator into this sprinting of his blood which is better than a crisis or the it absolutely but the same road that approach that says you have approached Christ the mediator who thank God the judge all so says you have come to the Angels and you have come to the spirits what is talking about in the context of Hebrews is what our position is this is what what we've come to we have come to the City of God as agustin says he is another expedition that we can we come to the City of God to all of these marvelous things we've approached all these things because we have seen them by faith and by revelation of God he's not telling us to approach the angels for mediation he's simply saying they're there that's where we're going hallelujah not not so because otherwise the book of Revelation would not show the angels taking all players like negative incense and offering them up to God nor would the book of Revelation show the 24 elders taking our prayers like Nuggets of impression on fire and releasing their part among young know as well as I do that this is apocalyptic literature you know as well as I do that when you talk about the woman with the twelve scars over her head the catholic theologians have interpreted that in various ways of israel being the primary way mm-hmm so why is Mary suddenly with the twelve stars over her head twelve tribes of Israel why is it Mary instead of Israel giving birth to Messiah first of all because the book of Revelation is apocalyptic literature here it does not take away 240 or the Word of God the second heard it literally is to stick your neck out it's just stick my neck out but in some ways interpreting I know Catholic wants the only myself the thing that's the same as beyond the church is done with that in conjunction with Jews they say you can go admit affecting need to go to these people precisely because they are part of the body of Christ yes and as members of the body of Christ they are in union with sins interceding for us even now in heaven you don't confess to angels you don't pray to angels you don't worship angels your love we don't worship an somewhere well your sister oh come on it's the sadly after the admit a second hail holy Queen Mother of mercy our life our sweetness in our hope today we cried poor banished children of Eve daddy where's our sighs mourning and weeping in this valley if that's not worship turned their most gracious advocate and eyes of Mercy toward delight and show it to us the fruit of thy womb Jesus oh yeah sure but but already before you get to show us Jesus you have already read or done again one of the things that attempt though the church rejects is adoration of Mary or anything I would reject that absolutely personally and anybody who does worship a saint is committing idolatry I agree and here and at the church each piece of that as well I have an official doctrine that you ain't may not worship any creature including the Blessed Virgin this is it heretical Oh Mary gate of heaven none shall enter in except by the is a theoretical well first of all not nothing necessarily at all I mean let me add to that stately pope leo xiii state and no one can go to the Father except through the son and similarly no one can go to the son except through his mother Mary that's right because the way that we come to know that the son in son that Mary is that what scripture says well Mary and what it leads us to Jesus but it doesn't say that Mary is the one who leads us to Jesus in a sense that she is the one who had the same authority of Christ what a does show is that unless she had given birth to him you wouldn't know him as Jesus give me one scripture verse in the New Testament it says that Mary is the one that leads us to Jesus I again I said no because we don't say that Mary leads us to Jesus in a sense that Jesus leads us to the Father because she's not God she's not the Redeemer but then why was so only in this influence analogous who are you and I leave run another to Jesus but you see why don't people say there's no LaNasa not if they don't believe it because there's no verses that say that and they don't want to believe the assumptions of a group of people they can't base it on the scripture okay first of all you know again one of the problems is that the difficulties with the anonymous are sweet are roasting from not only then our honesty know what we believe about Mary and imputing to us things that we don't believe prices that we adore her or to her blessing again that never what I taught anything like that ever in my life and I don't believe you were I don't believe you would taught that either but and and I think that it Pius the 12th bitters and well one of the again definitely disagrees them to understanding him but one of the in one of the things about to betray us call her the gate for instance you know Jesus and these things are poetry and if those words the the kind of policy of wealth well if we say Jesus is the way she's the gate all right and we do as a matter of fact talk about Mary Nicolas Jesus is the New Covenant she's the arc Mary is jesus is the son of David and Mary's the power David that reveals into that that holds them in Vatican 2 says strictly that the Blessed Virgin is to be invoked via the church you take that poetry honey you take it oh no he's being broken and asked for her prayers and is ready to give that in the New Testament well first of all it's not the biddin in New Testament and secondly will reduce it one day if this were here welcome it again if you understand that praying for one another is taking away from the mediator ship of Christ then it would be a sin but if praying for one another is consonant with the mediators reiated to the price because a we pray for one another as members of the body of Christ and in the name of Christ and she more than anybody has that right because Christ was in her body and she said he were there at Pentecost I'm sofa with the hospi right right I get vibrate if I pray for you I don't pray to you and say you're my mediator no but you but I think I can play for you but I don't pray to you but you can ask me to pray for you yeah but you don't decorate this yeah but there's a difference between playing to marry and maybe with a message that we're in the run we're getting over getting a field of the one important point here in Mary in Catholic theology correct me if I'm wrong here the basic concept is that Mary is close to Christ because she's the Ark the vessel that brought him forth and so I was taught and you were taught to that what you're supposed to do is to talk to Mary because she can talk to Jesus for you she's his mother she's closer to him than you are tonight okay wrong because in Matthew chapter 12 Jesus has asked the question your mother and your brothers are outside is that who is my mother and my brother I tell you whoever does the will of my father which is in heaven the same is sister brother Mary write to me but therefore she's no closer to him than I am by the blood of the Cross except a year's worth again that to many you know folks on I got a deal with two definitions here first of all let me deal with the one you brought up that praying to Mary is not of praise not effective even a couple were sport in Latin that were used to distinguish between the kind of honor we get to her and the on you get to God and we only worship goes to God not to her honor goes to her the thing that we still in praise of her is to ask her to pray for us if not praying to her as if she is the object of the arm when we call the final object with final cause about prayer it's praying to her so that she goes to her son then in terms of what you're saying here she is above all other women and all other people on earth the one who obeys the will of the father because she hears the word of the angel says how can it be done then let it be done but by her Fiat okay and I might woman I really have what you're saying can you understand this when we say we don't agree on the basis of strict verses that seem to us to logically rule that out completely yeah that's it I thing that I you know also sent is that the limitation input versus by omitting it might like the document the text description that we do use is the one in the wedding feast at Cana where merely ask Jesus to do something he does not want to do and he does it anyway she just she tells him tells the folks do as he says and he listened to her intercession now in some way she has to suffer to that to be sure in his public ministry and he does make it a separation from him and to her and that's you know we believe that that's part of her suffering something that is redemptive in the same way that Paul teaches that our suffering is redemptive in Colossians 1:20 for your maker I make off in my own sufferings for what is still lacking in the sufferings of Christ for the sake of the church but she underwent and seen her son Jesus die hey whoa a lot of paper on that one right there why don't you answer it well and that's what let me finish the sentence first okay we're suffering and see Christ died for having her heart pierced by the sword so that all your thoughts could be revealed she adds Mary Paul adds man okay so you're taking historical accounts and you're making doctrine out of those okay where you won't take the teaching statements of the people themself in the New Testament it's like saying a man you know if you'll you'll add a joke one man went out the Judas went out hang himself the other verses go and do thou likewise things you have historical events but you can't make back in just because something happened you have to have the teaching state you tell the Scriptures over them well one of the things he really also have some more basic differences that we have to talk about and you know some of the time but one of the things that you understand about you know um the use of doctrine is first of all scripture does not forbid us to go to her rather says approach the spirits oh no no no no man what's all that a good just says approach the spirit of adjust no indeed in any way that's where the text read the text says in which the verb to approach them right right and the context of the passage says we are seeing heaven open yeah and we are approaching into heaven through God himself the spirits of just men made perfect and so why not wait a minute why not pray to the just men made perfect life stop with Mary let's go to the angels let's go to them if you're going to take that passage to mean that we go to everybody as a matter of fact one of the things that's a contest first of all says is that our religion is not like Mount Sinai a religion of fear and trembling right all right but rather it's a religion of approaching unlike on Mount Zion and the imagery is the contrast moong Sinai which could not be touched versus mungs ayan which could be post for offering sacrifice and people could come there you can context but in the name that multi-engine in the argument of the verb well and one of the things that it does say then that the nature of our religion is one of approach right and the common to the successive adjust and you learn about intercession but okay solve it again and that's what we don't take that text just by itself it does say a person and as a matter of fact we do approach the other things all right second we need a 30 second wrap up here Walter we're out of time I can only say what I said before on a subject of prayer and worship we're playing a word game when we use veneration and worship so I think we're playing a word game because this is a very clear-cut statement by Pius the 12th receive almost sweet mother our humble supplication supplications our prayers above all obtain for us that on that day happy with you we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars you are all beautiful Mary you are the glory you are the joy you are the honor of our people that's worship and that's what we disagree we do not believe it that's because the angels and the elders of Revelation receive the prayers of the saints you don't adore those elders though John was tempted to do so and don't adore the angel of John this country could do so he built again forbid introduced any was forbidden at play stopped and we also believe that we can worship Mary and we do not worship her and that's by an act of the will but we give our supplications our there's a giver of prayers and the Predators are the same so that they who are with the Lord face to face in heaven now Elijah before him can take our prayers to Christ in a way that's more direct than we who are still caught up in the consciousness of sin one guy not be is as close to one God one intercessor between God and man the man not married Christ Jesus okay one church one body of Christ and members of the body Christ in heaven and on earth United to Christ can offer prayer to the Father in unit M so there's no distinction or no separation I should say between the Saint Mary and Christ all right remember the eyes but interesting discussion thanks for joining us hope you'll tune in next week [Music]

Channel: Veritas Dipolog

Views: 79,249

Rating: 4.6655951 out of 5

Keywords: Virgin Mary, Mary, Bible, Mother of God

Id: SnXu-io7QSI

Length: 45min 34sec (2734 seconds)

Published: Thu Apr 27 2017