DEBATE: Is Homosexuality Consistent with New Testament Obedience?

hey we want to welcome and thank these four who have courageously come to do this important work so I want to introduce them to you I'm so excited that they're here so first is dr. Michael Brown he is the author of answers answering Jewish objections to Jesus president of fire school of ministry his radio show line of fire is phenomenal I hope you check it out follow them on social media he comes to us and we are so excited to have him here dr. James White I think dr. James White it's the people drove the longest to see you and who's who's here from Chicago okay dr. James white is the author of the King James only controversy The Forgotten Trinity my favorite the Potters freedom everyone go by the Potters freedom in director of Alpha and Omega ministries please check them out Reverend Ruth we're so excited to have you here she's a native of Jacksonville both of these guys are residents here in Jacksonville so we thank you for coming Reverend Ruth Jensen for Bell founded First Coast Metropolitan Community churches we're really excited she's led the effort the community AIDS coalition of st. Augustine and she's working back down in st. Augustine doing great work down there and pastor Dwayne Robinson he is from called out believers in Christ Fellowship is that correct excellent he leads workshops on worship conferences on the grace of God and healing from church hurt and thank you so much for being available to us I wanted to take just a quick moment to thank our favorite sponsors there in your bulletin Pat's our family veterinary clinic I gotta be honest they've been taking care of my pets they are phenomenal and c12 led by Bob shallow here in Northeast Florida I don't know if you noticed from our parking lot we are a tiny Church we are way out of our depth to be able to afford such an awesome event so in order to love these guests well would you please consider sharing some of what you've brought tonight to just give them a gift to say things Keifer tonight if my Usher's would come up front let me pray for this and we're gonna get on with our evening if you're making out a check or if you're going online if you just note apologetics event we're not keeping a dime this is just to take care of everybody and say thank you for their time all right Heavenly Father we thank you so much for your time for setting up sight this time in place for this to happen or would you bless this gift that we can thank our guests for coming that you would be glorified in what happens here tonight in the name of Jesus amen and now I'll introduce our moderator Matthew Henson well good evening it's good to be with you all this evening my name is Matthew Henson I will be your moderator tonight my job is twofold to ensure quality debate and to be relentlessly neutral so that is exactly what you will see out of me this issue does often cause passionate debate which we welcome provided that that passion is directed towards ideas and not people with that in mind we're going to have to work together audience participants moderator and everyone to ensure a good evening so from our participants we have been emailing ad nauseam for the past couple of months hammering out some rules I'm going to give those in brief now that our four participants have agreed to during their a lot of time you'll notice this is a two-on-two debate and so there's some questions about who goes when but during their allotted time the affirmative or the negative side may have either participants speak here at the podium they're permitted to tag-team but of course this doesn't change anything about their allotted time the thesis of this debate will rather the question is is homosexuality compatible with New Testament obedience and if we were to turn that into a statement it would be homosexuality is compatible with New Testament obedience you can choose to affirm that statement or to try and negate it that's where we get our affirmative and our negative side so the negative side on my right your left and the affirmative side on my left your right the length of each individual segment has been pre agreed to and our time enforcement will be consistent if a participant chooses to ignore the time expired notice any time that that participant goes over will be deducted from the ten minute closing statement if a participant excessively violates time allotment moderator may choose to verbally intervene but I don't anticipate that that will occur if technical difficulties are encountered the clock will stop until those are resolved we will have an audience question time at the end and we'll go over more about how to submit questions and how all that works at that time that'll be via index card our participants for their opening statements and really for everything except for the cross-examination period we'll be addressing you from here but during the cross-examine back and allow them to directly address one another so I thank you all for being here and at this time I'd like to call the affirmative side for their 20 minute opening statement thank you one more point of order that I did neglect to mention is that we appreciate enthusiasm on this topic but the only sound we would like to hear from our audience is the sound of pages turning and flipping as you look up biblical references if you are a bit more exuberant and choose to verbally express that we appreciate that but we may ask you to observe the rest of the proceedings from another venue thank you a 20 minute opening statement for the affirmative side begins now and is that the time the the clock will be behind me up on the wall this one will count down the final five minutes but they will be in sync once the five minute time hits all right thank you so you see my information in your bulletins I did want to add a couple of things first of all thank you for this opportunity if you said courageous one more time I was going to be very very nervous and let you know that I've never ever debated anyone I'm not a debater I'm not trained as a debate or so I'm here to learn from evidently experts so thank you very much I also want to say that what it might not be it is not in your bio of me I am so happy to have my wife here we've been married for 30 years married before God and because that was the only choice we had and then when it became legal we did become legally married in 2005 so we're celebrating 30 years together this year and I'm so happy that she's able to be here with me when I was looking at this and actually Duane and I discussed this I looked up obedience because it's not a word that I have come to use regularly in sermons or any kind of teaching and when I found out what it meant I said oh well sure obeying the word and for for me as a Christian my word comes from Jesus and so when I think about consistency is it consistent this is the part that really confuses me just a little and so I want to tell you where I'm coming from especially my debaters over here consistency says to me that you do obedience the way you understand it and as I said for me that is the word of Jesus Christ as a Christian I believe that I serve a God who unconditionally loves all of creation and I serve Jesus Christ so to me being consistent is to never ever not serve Jesus Christ I know I'm a sinner falls fall short of the glory of God and praise God for that because that's why Jesus died on the cross for me so that's where I'm coming from and I also try to keep Jesus commands and part of what I've done is an ordained minister is promised God to do whatever God calls me to do now I do want to warn any of you who might be looking toward ordination perhaps you're already there when you make a commitment like that it can be very dangerous because here's what's happened to me I had a plan for my life I thought I was on the right Road I was serving God and then God said no that's not where I want you to be and I was kind of enjoying being where I thought it should be but God said we need to have a church in st. Augustine and you are the person I've chosen for that and I said well okay so I said I can do that and I can still teach I was a teacher I enjoyed being a teacher I was an educational media specialist if you all know what that is and I hope some of you do we're the librarians in schools but it sounds so much better to say educational media specialist doesn't it so I thought I can do that I can go start this church everything's fine and then God said now you know you can't be doing both these jobs and then a colleague of mine said you will feel like you're on vacation if you quit your job and devote your life to God and she was right she was absolutely right and so I worked lots harder for lots less money but I felt so wonderful about it so I founded First Coast Metropolitan Community Church part of the universal fellowship of Metropolitan Community churches I started that and I was happy to start it and when I got to retirement age actually a little past I was so happy to retire and if you are not retired yet you know be happy about it for as long as it lasts because I'm 72 years old I retired at age 70 and I thought for three months I enjoyed it so much for three months I kind of got the sleep bin and didn't have a schedule and didn't have to look at the calendar every minute of the day and then God spoke through Metropolitan Community churches when I received a call about a congregation in need of an interim pastor and I am a trained or interim pastor in Mobile Alabama now that's a straight shot over on i-10 if you know that it's a six-hour drive with a time change when you get there and time change when you come back and so I've spent the last year and a half at mobile helping them heal helping them re-energize and I was pleased to participate in the installation of their brand-new pastor through all of this I say I've found out that the love of God can do anything in fact God can do anything and I know it I believe it I've witnessed it and for me this whole topic comes down to Jesus and Jesus said in John 14:15 if you love me keep my commands and Jesus made it so wonderful for us as Christians because if you know anything about Judaism you know anything about the holiness code there are over 600 rules and regulations and when Jesus came Jesus said I come to fulfill the law and when asked for the greatest commandment he could have said anything but he said here's what the greatest commandment is that you love God with your whole heart soul mind and strength but he did not stop there he said the second is just like it love your neighbor as yourself there was something in common in these commands from Jesus and the word was love and so for me it's all about love it's all about loving people and I have to say this our young people today don't need rules don't need judgments they need love they have to know that they are loved exactly the way they are they have to be loved through the decisions and problems that come against them they have to be loved through the assault of the evil one they have to be loved through finding out who they are as a child of God and I believe we are all children of God and I believe our bottom line has to be love thank you [Applause] as was stated before I am Dwayne J Robinson of the called out believers in Christ Fellowship and I'm very pleased to be on this distinguished panel with these wonderful doctors and very grateful to have been invited by your wonderful pastor and I come from a culture I'm black man and I come from a culture where we appreciate our pastors and so I was taken aback just a little bit when the pastor said I am the pastor I wanted to turn the table over but you all were sitting there very calmly so I want to say that I just do appreciate the pastor of this church for inviting us and the leadership and the forward thinking that he has to bring these kinds of issues to us to make us think to not box us in so that we are able to give a count in that last day about the Word of God that is in us I am NOT here to defend anything I am here to affirm God's love for his people an undying love a never-ending love a love that has to snatch us out of the bowels of hell a love that has come to make a way for us when there was no way for us and so my position about this particular subject having lived through it but even before I lived through it my my position about this like Reverend Ruth's position is it is found it has to be rooted in love and so there are many things that I can assume because I've viewed these kinds of debates before sat in the audience I too have not debated before an audience before but we have a panel every year at our church every other year at our church where we invite people in and our audience of people are people who are LGBT that's the word you're going to hear that you that you might not be familiar with that's lesbian gay bisexual and transgender or same gender loving that's another word that you'll hear me say not out of fear of the word homosexual but to take the notion that homosexuality is merely about sex in the same way that your marriages heterosexual marriages are not merely about sex if that is what your relationships are merely about they will not last long because as we age amen and so I want to use those terms not that I'm afraid of the other terms in our debaters may use those and not feel offended the other thing I want to say is I don't want anybody in this room there was a very gracious and hospitable atmosphere as we came in but I also saw that there was a leaning towards trying to make us feel more comfortable than other people and again as a black man I've experienced that too where when I walk in the room the temperature of the room might change simply because I'm black I'm a human being and we're all human beings being loved and judged by the Word of God at the same time these things occur they are co-occurring at the same time and so we want to get it right when it comes to the Word of God we don't want to play games with the Word of God we don't want to wake up one day and end up in hell amen and so that's why I'm here so I'm here to talk about the that covers a multitude of sin and brings us into a consciousness and an awareness of sin and what sin is and our debaters will talk I'm sure a little more about that as well my take on that is the HAR Mattia it is that part of God's grace that causes any and every one of us who are missing the mark the word means the word sin there means to miss the mark any and every one of us who are missing the mark the mark of the high prize that is in Christ Jesus that grace comes like a wind underneath any of us to carry us to that place that we're not not one of us is worthy of and so I want to talk about that kind of love I don't want to skirt the issues of the Old Testament talking specifically about homosexuality being an abomination to God I understand that I I've lived through that kind of condemnation that was put on but the Word of God comes through that st. Paul who is going to be quoted in just a cute a few minutes to say there is now therefore no condemnation to those of us who are in Christ Jesus whether we are bond or free whether we are Jew or Gentile whether we are male or female and we might get away with the whole Jew or Gentile argument we might get away with the bond or free argument but you won't get away with the male or female argument there is now therefore no condemnation and so when I talk more about this later after some things have been introduced which I highly expect will be introduced then we'll come back and we'll apply these principles that we've talked about on today to those principles that I highly expect will be brought up but again I want to say I've felt nothing but love probably over love in the room as I know that people want to make sure that we feel welcomed and we do not feel in any way hated in any way shape or form there's nothing but loving this but that's what Christianity does that's what Christ does and so we don't want you to think by any stretch of the matter nation at Chicago light on us let loose because at the end of the day the Bible says let God be true and every not some every man a liar amen [Applause] to our affirmative side you have an additional seven minutes do you wish to address the podium further No okay we now call our negative side to the podium for their twenty minute opening statement well thanks so much everyone for being here everyone who put things together and especially our debating poet opponents but many years of doing ministry work so so and fear not we will let loose because that's what love does because love tells the truth in fact amazingly in Leviticus 19 where it says about half to the rack'em okay love your neighbors yourself it also says you must rebuke you must tell the truth in the very same context I want to present to you tonight Jesus the only Savior and the only Lord Jesus who shed the same blood for a heterosexual and homosexual and Jesus who came to say he can say that which was lost and Jesus went after the marginalized the outcasts the tax collectors the prostitutes the sinners but he did not affirm them where they were he did not practice affirmation 'el inclusion he practiced transformational inclusion he reaches out to where we are and changes us by his love so amen were here to speak about the love of God and Jesus came full of grace and truth not grace or truth but grace and truth and often the church when it comes to LGBT issues has been very strong on truth but often lacking in love and sometimes we've given the impression that if a gay man comes into our congregation we're all going to get AIDS or they're all sexual predators and for that from the heart I apologize because often we've not recognized the rejection that folks have lived through that was alluded to earlier some of the obstacles that have to be overcome but here's the tragic mistake that we're going to work against tonight because we love people someone's growing up maybe they're growing up in the church they discovered to their surprise their same-sex attracted they pray they fast they they get counseling people try to drive demons out of them and then they don't know what to do they get online they find out about quote gay Christians and they begin to look into things and they see I read books for and I read books against it I'm not sure but they said I know God made me gay I'm sure of that and then they go to the Bible through that lens in other words they interpret the Bible through the lens of their sexuality rather than interpreting their sexualities through the lens of the scripture and that's why there's so much confusion and once someone puts gay lesbian as part of their identity they have now identified in the way contrary to the way God sees us he sees us as human beings who have sinned and fallen short all of whom need the grace of God to forgive and transform now we're focusing on New Testament obedience but I want to underscore the essential harmony of Old and New Testament when it comes to these foundational issues we know in Genesis the first chapter God creates the human race male and female and then in Genesis the second chapter we see that there's no suitable companion or helper for Adam it says Adam it's not good for the man to be alone but notice God does not just say I'll give him a suitable companion but a suitable helper now in God's sight men and women are equal in what sense is the woman a helper the man cannot fulfill his destiny to be fruitful and multiply unless they're his union God's intent from the beginning is one man one woman joined together for life Jesus himself affirms that in Matthew 19 4 through 6 this is the way God established in the beginning and it's not polygamy either it's not Adam and Eve and Evette and Yvonne that's not there either so God establishes one man one woman and when when Adam sees the woman he calls her Esau why because she was taken out of the eesh he calls her woman because she was taken out of the man and says you are now born on my bone flesh in my flesh and the two come together and become one only male plus female can become one because there is a complementarity biologically emotionally and spiritually the woman came out of the man and that's why when they join together in marriage the two complementary halves become one once again now you might say yeah but if this is such a big issue how come the Bible doesn't mention it that much let me give you an analogy that a friend of mine uses let's say I put together a recipe book healthy dessert recipes and you read in the beginning because we don't believe in sugar we think it's unhealthy you won't find sugar in any of the recipes in fact every single recipe here is sugar-free and you notice I use the word sugar just three or four times in the book because of which you conclude sugar is not a big issue no it's such a big issue it's excluded from every other recipe in the book every recipe and the Bible for marriage for family is male/female only honor your father and mother reinforced in the New Testament husbands love your wives wise respect your husbands there there is no other pattern given anywhere in the Bible every reference to homosexual practice is explicitly condemned every reference to marriage to family to mothers fathers it is all heterosexual and that means and I don't mean this in any demeaning way and I don't doubt the devotion that these couples have for each other but if you're reading Scripture and now we're reading Paul it's New Testament husbands love your wives wife loves your husband who's the husband who's the wife in a same-sex relationship the pattern simply doesn't fit let's take this one step further we talk about Leviticus 18:22 we know the the verse we can go through it very carefully in Hebrew if we need to I'm happy too and it says plainly that for a man to lie with a woman it's literally the the way a man lies with a woman that that is abomination there's something detestable in God's sight you say yeah but God gave lots of laws in the Old Testament like the food laws and certain kind of garments and so on aha God gave certain laws to Israel to keep them separate from the nations like the dietary laws which he never commands the nations to keep like certain types of garments which he never commands everyone else to keep and then there are other laws based on universal moral principles like don't murder or don't commit adultery how do you know which is which well the Bible tells us which is which plus those that the universal are reinforced in the New Testament so when it comes to homosexual practice not as only is it explicitly forbidden in the Old Testament that that prohibition is repeated in the new and the Book of Leviticus tells us also this is not just for Israel this is not just part of a separation code this is a universal moral principle read the end of Leviticus 18 read it carefully for yourself God judged the Canaanite nations for practicing these very sins if he judged the Canaanites and it was wrong for them it is wrong for all people this is a universal moral prohibition and I say this with all respect if God says something is detestable it's no less detestable if you do it with someone you love and it's no less detestable if you do it repeatedly with the person you love it doesn't change the fact it's contrary to God's sacred and holy order which is then reinforced in the New Testament and that's why Jesus says in Matthew 5:17 to 20 if he didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill when it comes to the sexual moral standards of the Torah like adultery what does Jesus do he takes it to a higher level not just adultery of the Act but now adultery of the heart when it comes to hatred when it comes to murder when it comes to other sins better that are prescribed in the Torah Jesus takes them to a higher and in Matthew 15 Jesus himself teaches that it's not that which goes into the mouth so the dietary things those those laws that's not what defiles but what comes out of the heart and then he lists their sexual immorality and as we have it in the New Testament it's the Greek word porneia in the plural which means all sexual acts outside of marriage and Jesus has described marriage for us as the union of one man one woman in Matthew 19 what what's so sad to see is that there's been universal agreement on these passages for centuries really for almost two millennia and before that in Judaism these were clearly understood it's only in the aftermath of the sexual revolution and the declining of our culture and the loss of our moral bearings that we've gotten spiritual confusion but the Word of God has not changed is not altered in any way consistent testimony throughout the entire Bible marriage is the union of male and female homosexual practice is explicitly condemned the good news is Jesus died for all offers freedom and transformation for all thank you when when the Son of God rose from the dead and left behind that empty tomb the first thing he did when he met with his disciples was to direct them to the scriptures he opened their minds to understand the scriptures and the testimony those scriptures had of him so it should not surprise us then that those very same apostles when they put pen to paper and wrote to the churches had a very deep consistency in their application of the Word of God to those churches and so for example when we go to the book of Romans and we listen to Paul's gospel as it's presented that very very important church at the beginning he lays out the universal nature of sin and the fact that rebellion against God twists the relationship between the creator and the creation it doesn't change God but it does twist and change the creation that exchanges the truth of God for a lie there are results from that when you derive your life from God and then you rebelled against God there's going to be results within your own experience and so in Romans chapter 1 we know that Paul derives his background from the book of Genesis if you look at verse 23 of Romans chapter 1 when he talks about how they exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God in the likeness of corruptible man and and four-footed beasts and crawling things and and he starts describing the created order when people heard that they recognized ah those are the very same words that were used in Genesis in the Greek translation of the Old Testament to describe the order of creation the very same words and so Paul is is deriving from the Old Testament there is consistency he's talking about the created order and why is that so important because 45 words later after describing the being given over and the desires their heart unto uncleanness and dishonouring their bodies amongst themselves you then have the words of verses 26 and 27 most would recognize a verse 26 is the only explicit and direct reference to lesbianism in the New Testament but both verses 26 and 27 are describing clearly homosexual relationships they are not simply those of slaves and masters or anything like that because it says they burned and desire one for another it was a mutual situation but here's the point what is said in both verses is that they went against the natural order the natural order and what has happened over the past number of decades especially has been an emphasis trying to say well I see natural order isn't really nature it's just simply what was societally expected in Rome or something along those lines or or try drive it from like dr. Brownson does from stoicism or something like this here's the problem as we saw the context the apostle paul is specifically deriving from the book of Genesis he's driving it from the created order this is the immediate context and so if we're gonna be fair to Paul if this was any other subject if there was if this was any other subject we were simply approaching Paul and saying where's Paul deriving his thought pattern from there would be no question that oh we need to say he's using the exact same words that were found the Greek Septuagint that means we this is where he's going to and so we need to look back at that context we need to allow that to be very important to our interpretation of what he is saying and so when we look at verses 26 and 27 and if we recognize that this is central to Paul's definition of what human sin is and what it does then we see that verses 26 and 27 when they talk about being against nature we're talking about nature as ordered by the created action of God himself going all the way back to the beginning same thing Jesus did in Matthew chapter 19 that Michael already mentioned from the beginning it was not so this is how God made man and female and female this is how the family was to function you go back to the created order as the foundation of these things and so this is what is being stay in verses 26 and 27 there are many even homosexual exegetes that recognize that that is indeed exactly what we have going on there but my time is very limited and so I ask you to turn with me to another text that is relevant to the very same issue of the consistency of what we have between old and new Testament and that is found in 1st Corinthians chapter 6 now again context is very important in 1st Corinthians chapter 5 a very tough chapter the Apostle it had to address the church and said you and Corinth you you have a sin that even the Gentiles don't don't seem to experience and that is that that you have a man who's had his mother this is an incestuous relationship and he says the church you should have known you should have grieved about this well how would they how are they to know well he uses the exact same Greek words in 1st Corinthians 5:1 that are found in Leviticus 18 8 the holiness code Leviticus 18 8 that prohibits incestuous relationships they should have known because they have God's moral law so the fulfillment of that law doesn't mean it becomes irrelevant the one who fulfilled it takes the penalty for us sinners but he upholds the law and it's good moral character in his death upon the cross and the church continues to recognize what this this this this is something that reveals God's heart this is what this is what tells us about God being holy and so when we come to 1st Corinthians chapter 6 it is very true that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus but the same man who wrote Romans 8 wrote 1st Corinthians chapter 6 and there he goes through this list he says do do not be deceived do not be deceived do not let anyone mislead you because the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God do not be deceived and as he lists the various sins that are found there such as idolatry I mean that's a that's a tremendous offense before God he uses two terms Malachi and arsenic oi ty and that term arsenic wait a SART Stanek oi ty we look in history Paul may have coined it himself he there may have been an earlier Jewish source so we don't have any longer that that utilized it before him but he seems to be the first one to use it in our recorded records and guess where it comes from once again if you go back to the Greek translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint right there in Leviticus 18 Leviticus 20 the very same words that are used of men lying with men what men do with men in bed and he's put them together as a single descriptor there can be no question as to what he is referring to here though many people have tried to revise it and by putting it together with Moloch oi which means soft many people believe and I believe this is an accurate understanding that what you have here are the active and passive partners in a male homosexual relationship and they are listed together they aren't the only sins that are here but they I don't I don't I haven't had anyone else come along and say well we need to promote Christian idolatry and so we're not having debates on that people say you're all you know got the wrong emphasis no we have to deal with what's being claimed here's the key what does Paul say in verse 11 and such were some of you the word were is in the imperfect tense eita such were not such are and as long as that imperfect tense which refers to a continuous action in the past is a past tense and not a present tense that must be the ultimate authority for the church today such were some of you but you were washed but you were sanctified but you were justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit of our God and that is the great message that we have this evening it is a message of hope such were some of you but you were washed but you were sanctified but you were justified these are things that God does I am sorry if there have been those who have - maybe you're here this evening and you experience same-sex attraction or you you have decided that you are gay I'm sorry if you've heard someone say well there's no hope for you you've just been turned over because the Bible doesn't say that the Bible says such were some of you but and then you have when you talk about being washed when you talk about being sanctified justified these are all things that are only possible because Jesus Christ died upon the cross of Calvary we can't do these things for ourselves but his sacrifice is powerful to achieve these very things and so I hope this evening no matter what else you hear we have to stand firm upon the truth we have to handle this word a right to honor God if this is God's Word we must handle it right but I hope what you hear in this discussion I know it's Michael and i's heart God's love God's redemptive purpose and the power of the gospel to actually change lives that is really what the issue is this evening and I hope that you will hear as we seek to proclaim that and defend that thank you for being here this evening [Applause] thank you to our participants for their opening statements two minor points of order there was a misprint on the screens and in the programs that says that the rebuttals will be ten minutes and the closing statements will be fifteen those times are actually flipped so we have a 15-minute rebuttal and then a ten minute closing statement for each side at this time we'd like to call the affirmative side to the podium for their 15 minute rebuttal of the negative as I thought many of the arguments that I thought would be presented were presented and will attempt to bring rebuttal number one there was a statement about the tragedy of having the event the experiences that many people experience when they are coming out of the closet or in the closet and trying to reconcile suicides and all of those things that do happen when people are trying to reconcile their sexuality with their spirituality and one of the questions that I had as I was listening to I believe it was dr. Brown that's dr. Brown talked about this was when did Jesus condemn any individual I heard I heard I believe I heard you say that he ate with the sinners sat with the sinners sucked with the sinners and then he would say go and sin no more but I don't hear a condemnation from Jesus additionally when Jesus is talking about issues like Sodom and Gomorrah Jesus talks about their lack of love their lack of hospitality but he never talks about the things that are typically talked about when we talk about Sodom and Gomorrah in essence he didn't say and you homosexuals and that's a matter of scriptural record additionally the Bible says or that dr. Brown said that people who are living through a particular phase of homosexuality tend to maybe it wasn't dr. Brown maybe it was give me your name again I'm so sorry dr. white I'm gonna get it it's two colors I should get it I believe it was dr. white who said that people reinterpret through the lens of their experience well anytime that we're interpreting anything any of us including dr. Brown and dr. white are interpreting through the lens of their experience they don't have another person's experience to interpret through they can read what other people have said they can read commentary they can read the scripture itself but when they get ready to interpret when they get ready to understand it has to be interpreted or understood through their own lens so I think we're all on equal grounds with that I don't think that that's something that's unique to a homosexuals experience or prostitutes experience or whoever else you want you want to talk about well the other thing is he referenced that God God's intent was for male and female to be fruitful and I kind of talked about this a little bit when I was up the first time there are men and women in this audience right now who are infertile and who have been infertile since birth and if that was God's intent for marriage yes the scriptures say be fruitful and multiply but that is not the intent we discovered the intent in Genesis chapter 1 when God is looking for a companion for Adam and it may come as a surprise to you but in your Bible God considered the animals before he considered putting Adam to sleep now I didn't put that in your Bible I didn't wake up this morning and sneak in each one of your houses and put that in there but that was a consideration that God thought worthy of putting into the Bible I certainly wouldn't have put it there but it's in your Bible and then God said Adam said he couldn't find any companion among the animals and then God put Adam to sleep and took out of Adam his rib and formed Eve and the Bible says that those chiu that were made in God's image and I want us to pause for a moment and not be religious but pause for a minute and think about the fact that the image of God was not clearly expressed until God had taken from Adam what was in Adam and formed Eve which means that the image of God is male and female now I want us to think about how that shows up in science today how that shows up in a living breathing human being today if a living human being looked like God looked before he took Eve out of look like Adam look before he God took Eve out of his side what would we call that person today we'd call that person or more for that and I hope they're not any minors in here I know we're streaming and all of that but I have to be candid as we have this conversation we would call that person of her more fidei now you take that home or fidei and you ask that home or that I which one they are and most often they are by society forced to conform to the image of whatever their mother or their father picked for them now this is adult conversation but it is truth nonetheless and then there are some who will not conform to what their mother our father picked for them and then they put on a dress and you look at them crazy not you but people now this is the reality of the world we live in we would not which one of you would dare to tell your child who was born in that condition that they are somehow not loved by God and that there's no heaven or hell or that there's no heaven for them and that hell is their only destination well what happens when that happens to an individual inwardly now that's the adult conversation that we have to have we talked about the purpose of marriage being for fruitfulness no the purpose of marriage being so that we can have the image of God expressed in the earth and the other place that that image is expressed in what is in what we call the church now when we look at there was the reference made to a sugar reference sugar being in it and because you say that there's no sugar in it at the very beginning there's not really a need to talk about the no sugar throughout well it's a clever reference but the fact of the matter is that the Scriptures talk about male and female throughout the scriptures talk about husband and wife throughout the scripture and it reiterates it over and over and over again and I think there was the reference made that said well which one is the husband and which one is the wife well what we know is from that culture there would not have been any way in religious conversation to describe that because it was prohibited we talked about that I conceded that at the beginning of the debate that if we're talking about the Old Testament there's no place for that conversation at all you're either going to be a male who's married to a female or you're gonna be a male who's singer for the rest of your life or a female who's gonna be single for the rest of your life and if you're a female who's single for the rest of your life in the Old Testament then you have really no part-and-parcel in society because you have nobody to vouch for you marriage was just as much a contract with society as it was anything else and that's the Old Testament that I have to concede to so when Jesus comes along I'm looking for him to have a negative I'm looking for him to prohibit this I'm looking for him to say no no no no no part in every conversation where he talks and I believe somebody brought up him talking about the Jesus defining male and female in the marriage well that's only because he's been asked the question about divorce and he says Moses said that you can put her away for this cause in this cause only and what was the cause that was the cause of being found in sexual immorality so I'm still looking for Jesus saying the negative will go to the first Corinthian reference and a latter part cuz I want to make sure I don't take all the time I'm sure glad Dwayne's with me III like I love the way he preaches always have met him a long time ago we actually sat together on a panel about couples homosexual couples and have being faithful to what we've done so I'm just gonna have to not be the debater here because I'm just gonna share with you I'm a child of the church literally I was raised in the Lutheran Church here in Jacksonville some of you may remember that shirts that used to be in Springfield st. John's it's still there st. John's Lutheran Church the pastor of that church had a brother his brother specialized as an ob/gyn and many people would come to him from other places mostly Georgia by the way to have their child and then put their child up for adoption because you didn't have a child out of marriage and really do well in Georgia that's my understanding I was one of those children and so when the doctor said to his brother the pastor I have a child it's going to be born that needs a family and so he came to my mother and father and he came to another mother and father who could not have children and let them decide who would take me which later on they adopted a boy and Stephen and I often talked about how we could be an opposite families and I say this to you because I'm a child of the church who has always been raised to know that God loves me unconditionally now here's what I have to say to you no one who's gay LGBTQ no we did not choose it no one would choose it many many many of us have prayed to have it taken away I never did because I knew from the very beginning I was a child of God and I knew God created me exactly the way God wanted me to be I was blessed with a mother and father who never never was negative about any part of my life I went from wanting to be a tugboat captain which my father was to a veterinarian then a doctor and I mean I just was all around and then oh my goodness it came to me at the age of 12 God called me to be a pastor and then I got the rude awakening my friends women could not be pastors in the Lutheran Church my pastor whom I adored said to me well you can be a Deaconess and I thought about that for a moment and then I decided that's not what God was calling me to do I continued to be very active in the Lutheran Church president of Lutheran Church women here in Jacksonville president of Florida Lutheran Church women and then on the national board of directors of lutheran church women I did whatever women could do in the church but my calling was always there and this is what I want to say to you my creation as a lesbian was always there please take no offense brothers in the room I was never ever a tracted to a man oh I had many many good friends and when it came prom time my best friend also in the Lutheran Church he and I he said you want to go to the prom with me I said sure mark I'll go the prom with you years later we both discovered we were gay but we were kind of hanging around all the time did church events did events at school went to the prom together and Mark and I later mark got married had a beautiful daughter and he's very glad that he had that daughter but he never never denied the fact he was gay many people have coming-out stories I was never in that's the truth I knew who I was from day one and I was I on 'red that when I found Elizabeth I knew she was the person for me because she was called by God - she was called to serve God and we were privileged to serve God together although she will be happy to tell you she was an administrator before I was ordained she was a church administrator still is even though I'm retired and so I can tell you this and if there are people in the room who disagree with this just just listen for a moment you know in your heart your sexuality you can pray it try to pray it away you can have people lay hands on you as you gentleman mentioned it will not go away if it's from God I've always believed if something is from God nothing can stop it and I am Who I am and I preach the truth to the people that I touch that God loves us exactly the way God created us to be and God does not want us to exchange the natural for the unnatural for me the natural is being a lesbian from you it may be heterosexual but I know God has a plan and I know that plan is the truth and I honor it every day [Applause] okay we'll now have our negative - affirmative rebuttal lasting 15 minutes and as we're just told the gentlemen have elected to stay at their table to do so so your time begins momentarily [Music] that is the norm for our behavior that is above our feelings our experiences or anything along those lines and so immediately no matter how strongly we may be committed to our own personal feelings there has to be a recognition that one of the dividing lines is okay but has God spoken to this particular subject and has he spoken to that with clarity I think it's very important that we therefore understand that we talked about obedience have we presented New Testament and Old Testament evidence together consistently that we can then answer the question is this something that God actually approves of outside of what we feel in his external revelation that I think is extremely important so the issue is not how do I feel or how if I always felt we were just told if something's of God that won't go away everyone here deplore its pedophilia how many times does a pedophile pray for that to go away and it doesn't go away what does that prove proves were broke and fall and race and we need a savior is what it proves and if we think about some of the points we made in the book of Genesis did God consider really consider that Adam have a giraffe or an elephant as a part obviously God is illustrating a point of the uniqueness of the woman for the man but notice God never tried another man okay that was never an option how about another man let's also consider that Genesis 1 lays out when God create it's male and female he creates us and it's the very first word he blesses us and says be fruitful and multiply a heterosexual couple is not violating the male/female design rather there's a defect because of which they cannot biologically reproduce when two men or two women come together they are openly defying the clear of biological design from God and the question was Adam 'him Aphrodite that would really be pushing with Genesis - the same but bonolon God didn't even if you think he was which I would say clearly he wasn't God didn't leave him like that okay instead God distinguishes made male and female and notice that the image of God is fully seen in male plus female not male post male not female post female so the very argument my friend was trying to make and by the way we got the you got the male female black white we got the brown white so we're sitting here - okay the very argument my friend was trying to raise completely refuted itself because the image of God finds expression through male and female coming together as one and Jesus himself makes that point I think we need to look again at his words in Matthew chapter 19 yes he was answering the question about divorce but he grounded his answer in creation itself and noticed his words when he answer he said have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female and therefore said for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother choke and cling to his wife and the two shall become one flesh this is God's intended created order and here even in the face of all the rules and regulations that were developed in the traditions and everything else Jesus goes back to creation grounds us in those purposes and my my assertion this evening is we are seeing in our society tremendous confusion and the reason we're seeing that tremendous confusion is we will no longer allow that word found in verse four the one who created them we have a society now that has no creator you're not allowed to believe that God created well if you're gonna follow Jesus Jesus believed in a creator who could define male and female and what their relationship was to one another I think it's vitally important that we hear those words and again we have not heard any positive references anywhere in scripture to these types of relationships only trying to open the door for the possibility rather than the positive statement in Scripture so we come then to what Jesus did and didn't say if you use an argument from silence during real trouble because you could say Jesus had no problem with incest because he never condemned it you could say dr. white and I believe in Martians inhabiting the earth because we didn't speak against it tonight and for the record we don't to be clear but there was no you don't need to ask certain questions when everyone knows what's believed in in first century Jewish thought it homosexual practice was universally condemned in the strongest possible terms as I imagine my colleagues here would know so you Jesus did not need to address that and yet he does address it in three different ways as we emphasize remember not only Matthew 19 the pattern around yes he was asked a question about divorce but it doesn't just answer the question about divorce he goes back to God's original intent for the human race but then in Matthew 5 to go there again he says I didn't come to abolish though all the prophets but to fulfill so for example he's the blood sacrifice that fulfills the need for blood sacrifices he's the great high priest when it comes to the moral Commandments of the Torah all right adultery what does he do he takes it to a higher level so the same way the prohibition against homosexuality the prohibition against incense he doesn't remove those he takes them to a higher level and reminds us in Matthew 15 that all sexual acts outside of marriage which he has explicitly defined as the union of one man and one woman for life he says that those things defile and then when we're told that it's only the Old Testament that reinforces husbands wives no no that's reinforced throughout the New Testament and I quoted Paul husbands love your wives wives respect your husbands who the husband who's the wife we have to deal with Paul we have to deal with Jesus we have to deal with Moses because they all spoke by the authority of the one true God and when we say that well but you're you have your own interpretation of lenss we're all putting our own interpretation lens on these things you see that's why we have to engage in meaningful rules of exegesis so that we can try to take our lenses off and look at the text as it was intended by the original authors that's why you do the hard work of interpreting in the light of the original languages in the original context so you can hear what the original authors are saying what Michael had said that was a reference to something that Michael had said about rereading the text in light of your sexual experience that's what he was talking about and that's what we've seen happen for example all you have to do is go online and see all the revisionist writings about what arsenic oi taste means at first Corinthians sex that it doesn't have anything to with homosexuality or what was really going on in in in Old Testament situations or the actual application Leviticus 18 Leviticus 20 which is why I pointed out for example the continuing abiding validity of those moral laws in the life of the church in 1st Corinthians chapter 5 as part of the context the point was that if you have revisionists who say my experience is the ultimate lens to which I will read scripture you'll end up overturning what the lexicons say what the grammar says and everything else we want to hear what God said as I remember as I remember it was said in the presentation we don't want to wake up one day in hell well the best way to stay out of that is to listen to the one who gave us the way to make sure to escape that and that's found in the Word of God that's what we need to allow it to speak for itself with clarity and the idea that Jesus didn't condemn yes God did not send his son to the world to condemn the world but to save the world and that's why he warned us about coming wrath and judgment how many times did Jesus warned us about Hell more than the entire Old Testament combined and didn't he say if your right hand causes you to sin cut it off throw it away he's speaking metaphorically but talking about you got to deal with sin radically we heard a reference to John eight as you have it in most of your Bibles that Jesus did not condemn the woman caught in adultery but he said go and sin no more so we say that everyone here was same sex attracted everyone here that identifies as bisexual everyone here that that has heterosexual lust Jesus didn't come to condemn but to forgive and to transform and then to say go and sin no more not go and send some more there is a major fundamental difference so when we're told there's no condemnation what does Paul me we'll read Romans 8 no condemnation to those who are in Christ which he then defines as those who don't walk after the flesh but after the spirit he said if you walk after the flesh you will die and when he said to re-emphasize what dr. white said when Paul wrote in Romans the first chapter contrary to nature he didn't say contrary to how you feel he said contrary to God's created order of male/female in Genesis chapter one it's very important to continue with what Michael was saying in regards to you know Jesus does not condemn any individual the problem is if you're calling for repentance what was the first element of Jesus is preaching according to the Gospel of Mark repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand you have to know what you need to repent from and there is a given reality amongst the New Testament writers and amongst the experience of Jesus in speaking to them amongst other Testament writers that there is a clear revelation from God that tells us what sin is and what righteousness is and someone says well Jesus didn't condemn anyone they're coming to him and repentance because they already knew what the law said there was no question about what the law said to to to Zacchaeus Zacchaeus knew that what he was doing in taking usury and and and the things that he was doing he knew that was wrong why because God's law said so-and-so they're coming to him already knowing their sin and finding in him the one that can bear that sin but you need to understand when we look at the cross of Christ if all you see if you do not see the righteousness of God's law and his wrath against sin at the cross you'll never see the depth of the love of the cross such an amazing thing for the Son of God to do to give himself in that way requires that God's law likewise needs to be recognized as reflecting his holy nature and so there is a deep consistency between old and new all the way through the text of Scripture on this subject of the revelation of God's truth in regards to sin and repentance it's also important when we look at Paul stating there's no male or female those are not categories of sin or obedience he's saying there's no caste system in the Lord there's no class system that in Jesus we are equally priests of God male and female alike equally members of the body equally sons and daughters of God equally branches of the vine there's no caste system or class system but he doesn't say there's no obedience or disobedience there's no sin or rites assists no those are different categories entirely so we need to be reminded of that and when we talk about things like suicide Jesus sets us free from depression and Jesus delivers us from things that lead to suicide and I have friends who are ex-gay they are genuinely ex-gay they are some of them happily married in heterosexual relations some of them grandparents some of them celibate but they are celebrating their freedom in Jesus and their new life in Jesus and I met a man a pastor loves the Lord kind-hearted man X gave for several decades he showed me a picture from decades ago he and his friends all professional men all accomplished in different ways they were hanging out they were vacationing together over a ten men there ten 20 years later he was the only one of them alive all the rest had died of AIDS and he had found new life in Jesus Jesus saves from death and delivers from death don't let anyone tell you when you preach the truth and love that you're leading to suicide and depression quite the contrary so in closing for our rebuttal period the thesis of the debate is is homosexuality consistent with New Testament obedience the assumption of the very thesis is that the New Testament is sufficient to define for us what obedience to its teachings would be and I believe we have presented very clearly not separating the New Testament out from the Old Testament but the consistency of God's law coming from the Old Testament text into its application by Jesus and then it's explication by his Apostles application within the church and the statements that Paul made in 1st Corinthians chapter 6 do not be deceived those who practice these things will not enter into the kingdom of God but such were some of you and so if obedience to the New Testament is the issue this evening then we have established that the New Testament teaching is but you were washed but you were justified but you were sanctified that is the consistent New Testament teaching when you look at it from its consistency in the entirety the Bible when you look at from the original languages the context in which the people lived whatever it might be that is the consistent message of obedience the New Testament and the fundamental fundamental error that we heard in the rebuttal period was where did Jesus speak against this again he did not need to again he addressed outer Scripture that made clear where he stood but since Jesus knew what the Old Testament taught and since he knew what Jewish people believed in that day and since he surely saw where church history was gonna go if homosexual practice was right or good he should have firmed it somewhere he should have made a positive statement somewhere he never ever did once thank you gentlemen that's the end of our 15-minute rebuttal period we are now going to move into our cross-examination period first it will be our affirmative side cross-examining our negative side a cross-examination time is a period that is more question-and-answer in conversation it is the time during the debate in which both sides may directly address one another and attempt to further understand points or demonstrating consistencies we have a few ground rules for this period the first of which being questions need to be need to have a question mark at the end of them and must be phrased as such it is okay to provide some perhaps some context a sentence or two but we ask that you limit questions to the bare minimum words needed to convey the thought answers also in order to have a lively discussion between one another we'd like to limit those so that a simple question is not asked and then the next nine and a half minutes be taken up with that response to our audience this is the part of the debate in which there is like I said traditionally a more lively exchange we ask that you please hold all applause until the very end of the debate there will be a Q&A period as you see on the screens that we will get to at the very end but please hold your applause after each period and after each question thank you so we will now start a 10-minute clock this will be for our affirmative side to question our negative side and that begins once I click my buttons here okay you may begin what happens to transgender person at the end of their life same as happens to any other human being on the planet and transgender separate category you would agree in terms of it's not a matter of sexual attraction but gender identity but the same as any other person if they have rejected God's mercy if they have lived in disobedience to his commands they're lost if they have received His grace and mercy and lived in new life they're saved so what it would mean explicitly is saying in your case as much as you're devoted to your spouse's and believe your scripturally right if you do not repent of that and turn to the Lord in obedience I would fear that that you be lost just like millions and billions of other people I'm Jewish born Jewish I didn't ask to what family I was born in I believe my Jewish people have rejected Jesus the Messiah and if they continue reject him they're lost so this is not a discriminatory thing this is across the board and ultimately it's not my opinion the question is what the scriptures say and I believe Scripture is clear on that is my question to everyone on the other side has actually to do with Romans chapter one okay there was a lot of presentation made on that but is Romans chapter one Paul's sermon or homily on homosexuality or is it his homily on idolatry Romans chapter one of course is part of two and a half chapters that Paul provides demonstrating the universal sinfulness of man so in Romans chapter one you have the universal sinfulness of man Romans chapter two the Jews say yeah that's right and then Paul says however this applies to you and then in Romans chapter three up through verse 20 you then have Paul saying see we conclude that all or under sin and so what I asserted since I gave that information is that Romans chapter one specifically verses 26 and 27 flow as part of the argument of what idolatry results in in the creation itself and hence the issue of homosexuality is an illustration it's not the central aspect because Paul moves on from there but it is an illustration of the twisting of the creator creation distinction and relationship and that's the illustration that he uses a follow-up question along the same lines please at the end of Romans chapter 1 this same argument that you've said to us is about idolatry he then prescribes that they are murderers and these other things do you believe that homosexuality leads to the things that Paul prescribes therein no it's no it's it's a common error to think that because Paul mentions actually a huge catalogue of sins at the end that that means that everyone commits all of those sins that's that's not the case at all the point is that when a person exchanges the truth of God for the lie there is a result and the reason that homosexuality is mentioned versus 2627 is because of that use of phrase natural order the way God made us what this means is sin touches us at the very core of our being the very identity of our being and twists that relationship even at that point there is no connection to therefore saying that means you're gonna automatically be disobedient to parents you're automatically good speak evil of authorities or anything like that all those things flow from rebellion but not every sin flows from every other sin it's it's also interesting to note that we affirm all the other things our sin murder idolatry sexual immorality we don't say they're only sin in the context of idol worship or if done in an idol temple we all affirm that all those who sin and somehow people try to just pull out men with men women with women and say that doesn't mean what what Paul said it meant so again this is the the progression when we reject God that it leads to this to this to this and hence the fallen human race and there are many many different manifestations of our fallen nature so then you believe you don't believe that he uses the word therefore after talking about what you've described as homosexuality to describe behaviors that come out of that homosexual description because he says therefore God gave them up over to reprobate minds after he says these what you describe as homosexual which first year referring to I do apologize they didn't pull up the verse because I have haven't memorized thank you so much the 24 comes before the description I thought you had just said afterwards after we read 24 and 25 yeah therefore God gave them over but then first that's first 24 26 is then therefore God gave them over to dishonouring passions and the women and so on and so forth so there's two they're fours but they're they're introducing it and it sounded like you said there's something afterwards the same how connects it without the Weisse list and that's what I'm sorry the words there are for this reason and it's in verse 26 and then we find and then down in verse number 28 and even as they did not retain the retain even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge God gave them over to the base mind this is after he has described that that's what I'm talking about well but you'll notice that specifically in verse 20 and just as they did not consider it right or good to keep God in their knowledge God gave them over so again the point is in each one of these instances going all the way back to verse 21 when you refuse to see yourself when you are in sin when you do not submit to God and the lordship of Jesus Christ there is going to be a resultant disruption of your relationship not only to God but to the creation around you and the point of verses 26 to 27 is that is even something that occurs in wordly even in our understanding of our attractions and that which God has given to us to even continue the species and so the point is that idolatry and sin touches all of mankind it's not just an external thing it touches every aspect of our being and again Paul is explicit about this being contrary men with men women with women contrary to God's created order in Genesis 1 and he's not talking about the same person throughout this whole thing this person gets worse is where he stood about humanity and again that that's why the progression keeps going the way it goes so I wonder then at what point in someone's life can they accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and Jesus says whosoever believes in me shall not perish but have everlasting life so if you're a sinner which we all are of course and I'm sure we continue to sin even though we may not want to I think Paul said I continue to do the things I know I shouldn't do and I fail to do the things I know I should so as we are continuing to sin in one way or another and as we know the scripture does not categorize sins as worse or better the Catholics do a good job of it but but the Bible doesn't so at what point out on our deathbed do we stop sinning yeah great question first I want to make clear that the sin is not to have an attraction or a desire the sin is not to find what you're attracted to the same sex or you could be attracted to many piss in estat to affirm those things or act on them jesus said plainly not everyone who says to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but only those who do the will of my father Paul wrote plainly that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord must turn away from iniquity so it is one thing to affirm sin and to practice then which you would be doing by saying that we have been married to same-sex partners and it's fine in God's sight it's another thing to say god I recognize I'm falling short I'm asking for help I'm acknowledging my sins so confession starts with the acknowledgment of guilt the acknowledgement of sin and then asked for mercy and forgiveness if you said hey we're struggling we're asking God for help he's the judge I'm not the judge none of us ultimately are the judge we stand before him however if my answer is no I'm going to continue to do this because I believe it's right then that's what Hebrews 10 deals with if we sin wilfully then there is no sacrifice there's no forgiveness so that's the key thing not struggling not to say that we're sitting here perfectly righteous and looking down our noses at you but rather if someone affirms that which God speaks against says it's not sin and I'm practicing it then we are rejecting the lordship of Jesus and we're doing with Paul wrote and for Corinthians 6:9 and 10 we are practicing this and Paul says no one who practices this will enter the kingdom of heaven but my problem with this is is simple if when the Holy Spirit reveals to me that my life is good that I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing it sounds like you're rejecting my relationship with God and the Holy Spirit speaking to me yeah I'm saying the Holy Spirit is not contradicting the Word of God that's the bottom line and you and I tell you to if I tell you the Holy Spirit spoke to me that you're wrong then you have to reject the Holy Spirit speaking to me ultimately Scripture thank you everybody for that first round of cross-examination we're now going to move unto our negative side cross-examining our affirmative side [Laughter] this I'm feeling a little oppressed here this this this point of order is noted and rejected yeah hey thank you everybody for that yes so we will now move into a ten minute cross-examination by our this side of our that side there we go your time begins now gentlemen okay first thank you again for being here and thank you for conducting yourselves in such a gracious way really much appreciate it and thank you for also reminding us that that there are people that passionately believe that what they're doing is according to Scripture we have these deep differences first question can you give me one explicit positive statement anywhere in the Bible that affirms homosexual practice not just the general God loves us but any explicit statement we know all the negative ones any explicit statement anywhere in the Bible that it's fine for a man to be with a man or a woman with a woman well [Laughter] I always look to not because my name is Ruth but I always look to Ruth and Naomi it was a very interesting relationship I'm sure you know the story and when when Naomi chose to leave her family and her religion to go with Ruth back to her country and God saw fit to use that relationship between Ruth and Naomi as an ancestor to Jesus when Ruth slept with out of marriage by the way slept with Boaz conceived a child scripture tells us that she gave that child to Naomi and Naomi saw that child as her child now you can say there were lesbians or not that's not the point this these are two women who God has used to get exactly where God wanted it to be as the idea that Jesus ancestry went back to moe as and so that's that's important to me as a woman it's important to me to know that God uses every part of humanity to get the plan done and for me that is a very positive thing God allowed something that may be looked at as a sin Ruth lying with with Boaz out of marriage and yet used it for something I believe very positive as that was the ancestry of Jesus and I think many times what we do and I'm gonna take one little point again to respond to you because I think we and I'm saying this as we Christians a lot of times are judgmental about God its relationship with other religions you said you were Jewish my sister-in-law is Jewish you know my niece and nephew are you are Jewish but what I know is God's gonna make God's gonna make a way for people to find their way back to God not he God not she God but God who is above those terms of male or females okay can I just can I just jump in though just out of respect to the specific question just to clarify since the Bible explicitly presents Ruth and Naomi as heterosexual both married women and then Ruth remarries with no testimony whatsoever of any sexual or romantic attraction or activity between them would you agree that that is not an explicit example of God affirming to lesbians in the Bible no so you're saying that it does affirm that even though you said we don't know either way you're saying it is an explicit example by God to do what needed to be done and you said but is that an example of a lesbian relationship and if you wanted to find that whether they had sex or not you're saying two women who love each other so that's the only way that two women can love each other if they're lesbians no I think it's the way two women can love each other who do not have husbands actively in their lives right that's an undo with lesbianism as many women here would attest maybe let me ask a question that didn't get an opportunity being if I'd rise before you to answer the same question first the original question our our purpose for being here our formal debate is is homosexuality consistent with New Testament and your question was do we have an explicit example from the New Testament that run around the Bible right anywhere in the Bible because we have the whole the whole Bible speaking against it if I might also say guei from what I was about to say to that issue - I was invited here to talk about the New Testament I conceded to our the gentleman that invited us that if we're going to talk about the Old Testament then I'm on your side I'll sit over there obviously argument argument has been in a consistency between the tubes so if you wish to limit that I've heard you say that three or five times now I'm here to talk about the New Testament and and I'm talking about that and that's very important to me because Christ is the originator of this New Testament he says explicitly that this is my this is the New Testament of my blood or the blood of money of this New Testament he is proclaiming that his blood has power over all that has happened before to bring us into a new and transformational I believe that's your word and I agree with it relationship with him so my answer to that question that was posed is I do not have a affirmative explicit example any more than you have and if negative or a condemnation from Jesus we stand on the New Testament of any explaining we're a nation in the words of Paul did Paul give us a positive example anywhere you know and what I'm saying to you is the same thing that you just said when I asked you the Saint or the or posed the similar thing which was do you have I'm still waiting for Jesus or Paul or anybody to talk about and I understand your interpretation of Romans chapter one but I believe in you conceded that it's about an idolatry and it's not about homosexuality no I did not you'll see that at all I said the exact opposite but when so let's talk about the specific reference to homosexuality in in 1st Corinthians chapter 6 then could you respond to the lexical information the contextual information where Tamala koi which arsenic which I were neither homosexuals either the active or passive partners will inherit the kingdom of God and such were some of you what what you didn't get a chance to respond respondent I did not and and and and it is so those two words were very ambiguous and they still are very ambiguous even your even scholars who are on your side of the belief concede that those words are ambiguous such as what we know is the context that this is written in the historical context that this is written man we know about temple worship and we know what was happening they and we know that this work that those same words are interpreted as prostitutes male prostitutes and you you kind of poo-pooed on that a little bit earlier but that's not new belief that's that's as old as the lexicon it's that in fact it's in their lexicon which one both both I can't save the Greek words I'm not I don't know how to say those no I I'm sorry I thought you said it's in the lexicon which lexicons strong strong strong isn't a lexicon it's a concordance re so if you if we look at vines and on and on all of those words are there okay well pull everyone here pull up Bible hub and look it up yourself okay first Corinthians right so so you actually haven't read any of the modern scholarship that that would substantiate what I indicated and that is that both arsonists and cueto are found right in the Greek Septuagint in Leviticus 18 in the biggest 120 in the holiness code and that they refer very clearly to what men do with men in bed and that fact even the online LGBT encyclopedia recognizes that these are not ambiguous words and the only reason anyone says they're ambiguous is because of the rise of the sexual revolution not because of any advancements in our knowledge of the of the new test so by contradiction to that is you don't find those words in any modern translations of the Bible prior to the 19th as a matter of fact the 20th century that's a truth so when you say and then you just English I'm sorry are you saying English translations determine the meaning of the Greek words no they do not but you just said it's new research you said have I read into the newest research I haven't and then you and then just a few minutes ago when you were talking you talked about how the new LGBT people are this I forget the exact words that you use but this this new theology or whatever words you use you can't have it both ways you can't have new theology that agrees with you and then have new thing I'll you know and then I'm sorry what I was asking about our modern lexicons your everything you've referenced is at least a century old so that the moderate the standard electric in today is called Bower donker aren't in Gingrich Biddy AG okay so you haven't looked at what the words mean as they're used in something like that's thank you for all of our participants here in this round of cross-examination we're now going to take a 10-minute intermission we'll return with another round of cross-examination so thank you very much so we've concluded our first to cross our first to cross examination periods and we've come up with some new terms for our participants here so negative and affirmative may not be in our lexicon anymore so at this time however I'd like for I'd like for our affirmative side to question these gentlemen here because I am myself stumbling over the word so we're going to begin a ten minute timer on this is will be our second cross-examination period in this direction and you may begin when you're ready I'll take it I'll take it well just seemed appropriate you can call us the black and white table we're fine with that too so in in all of our discussion I guess it comes down to and I have to say I feel this way so just please take it as part of this whole thing to hear somebody say to me a lesbian Christian whosoever who believes in Jesus that I'm condemned it's really hard to hear so when you encounter people in your ministries in your life and your friends whatever is that the way the best way to present to someone that you want to transform well actually I was responding to your question and and I quoted words for the New Testament back to you so I I regularly hear from people who've come out of homosexuality that because they heard love for me because they heard of God's transformative power because we were not the negative hateful bigoted stereotypes and because we spoke the truth in love that that was a key for them coming out and experiencing transformation and new life in Jesus so what I present is what I present at the beginning Jesus the only Savior and Lord Jesus the one who died for heterosexual and homosexual alike Jesus the one who came to seek and save the Lost and Jesus who does not affirm us in our sin but transforms us out of our sin preached the same way and offer liberty and hope and new life to everyone recognizing how deeply folks feel and feel they were born this way or that they couldn't change or try so with always compassion sensitivity but it is a message of tremendous love to look someone in the eye whoever they are and say if you don't turn to Jesus in repentance and faith you're lost that's a universal word of love offering hope and new life in Jesus love speaks the truth so so there's a phrase and I maybe miss quoting it so excuse me that have you ever heard love the sinner hate the sin yes I don't use it because it's it it would be offensive to someone who identifies as LGBT because they would say this is not what I do this is who I am and they would hear it as if I was saying that I that I hate you so I don't I don't use that personally because I feel it can be misunderstood well I could but what does it mean to you that phrase okay so specifically God loves human beings but he doesn't love our sin if there's pride in my life if there's lust in my life if there's greed in my life he loves me but he doesn't love those things notice he affirmed those things in me so we universally recognize that none of us would think God loves adultery or God loves murder or God loves pride and those are all things that some people find to the core their being their prideful thoughts or self-centered thoughts so we go to the cross with that rather than affirm that but when it comes to saying someone saying I was born this way I was born gay or born less which I don't believe it's biological anyway but someone feels that way okay that's the bottom line they feel that way that's the thing that we're now affirming so we turned the Bible upside down to affirm someone's feeling and experience as opposed to saying all of us come to the cross broken all of us come to the cross with issues all of us need forgiveness and transformation I was totally engaged [Laughter] we'll go back to the to the hermaphrodite thought cuz like it keeps going through my head the biological piece and I'm I'm curious to know you you started on the path but didn't go anywhere with it I'm curious to know what you would say to that individual in lieu of the scripture well if you're talking about someone who actually is has genetic aberration and hence has either no sexual organs or sexual organs representing both both genders or something along that not only is that an extremely small number of people but in that situation it's the requirement of the church to come alongside and to deal with that person as they would someone anyone else who has that kind of genetic abnormality the problem is and this sort of goes beyond the issue of homosexuality because there is no proven genetic component as in gene mapping or something the the problem is that when you look at transgenderism today the vast majorities individuals are not hermaphrodites there is there is no X Y chromosome elaborations genetically with these individuals and so it would be a pastoral issue as to how you would approach a person who actually has that but that's a different thing than what we're seeing in transgenderism today where the the created categories of male and are being violated based upon what I feel today that is a I view that primarily as a rejection of the creation categories that Jesus himself affirmed so while you will acknowledge the the biological you wouldn't make no allowance for the psychological while I recognize that there can be those a very very small number of people with a genetic component to a genetic disorder that's not the same thing as someone who feels that they're a different gender but they do not have any physical reality that corresponds to that that's not the same thing I would add that obviously I don't think that a three-year-old child or four-year-old child who feels like a boy trapped in a girl's body is a transgender activist or some evil rebel but I would say it's a problem and the solution is to try to help them from the inside out as opposed to put them on hormone blockers before they come into puberty and then sex change surgery then hormones for life and they'll never be able to fully function as either male or female after sex change love is to get by those parents and that kid and recognize that 75% or more once they get past puberty will no longer be gender identity confused but to try to help them from the inside out so we I recognize it as a genuine issue one psychological one biological but I don't now affirm the exception and affirm the problem I said let's find a solution to it the same way if we have someone that's say deaf in our school we don't require everyone to stop talking a new sign line which we try to accommodate that person but now everything gets turned upside down so that the boy who identifies as a girl uses the girls bathroom and everyone else has to submit to that reality or else that's where we have the problems expound on that last analogy that you because I've genuinely I'm enthralled so expound on that last analogy that you just made so if we have someone say intersects so androgynous him hermaphrodite were we're biological chromosomal abnormality we recognize that as an abnormality and we come alongside that person try to help them find wholeness and if there are biological solutions you know and any types of things that can be done the same thing we do with anyone else with a handicap with a defect with a problem we compassionately stand with them right we don't turn reality upside down we stand with that person and help them so conversely when it comes to transgender activism I can now be penalized if I work in New York City and I don't know if you now say that you want to be Janis and I have to identify or Delores instead of Duane and I don't call you Delores I can be fined up to $250,000 and and and if little Johnny is convinced that he's Jane let's say little Johnny is now 15 years old and this convinced he's Jane he can play on the girls softball team and share the girls locker room that that is absolutely absurd and crazy love would say well look you are biological male okay that's your chromosomal male let's help work with the mental and psychological issue from the inside like we do with everything else if your kids convinced he's Napoleon you don't dress him in the Napoleon outfit you say okay son we love you but you're not Napoleon so the same way sudden we love you but you're not a girl that's what love would do no further questions okay very good we will now have our final cross-examination period and then we'll move on to our closing statements so gentlemen your time begins now all right so just to to build on something that that Dwayne is do my first name okay has been just not even mastered our colors now you got to learn our names so the beige guys either the beige guys okay so all right so sane you know i categorically differ with you that Jesus had to condemn homosexuality by name but let's take something else assuming you agree that adult consensual incest is wrong that it would be wrong for two men or to a brother's sister okay when did Jesus ever explicitly condemn incest in the New Testament he didn't but I believe Paul did okay so based on that and I'd be curious to know where you said Paul did 1st Corinthians 5 I imagine so that was fine for you though it's Paul condemned homosexual practice by name but that wasn't good enough for you you wanted Jesus to do it also I didn't say it was good enough for me you asked me where okay okay okay got it so do you agree that Paul never gave a positive example of homosexual practice and that he also spoke against it right okay but that's good enough for Paul it's not good enough for Jesus Jesus also had to explicitly forbid it well because Paul isn't our Savior Paul is an imperfect man writing imperfectly and he comes to a place in his life where he actually admits that at the end of his life where he what where he actually admits that he's imperfect Ruth quoted that earlier okay so then everything we heard up to now about the authority of Scripture has just gone out the window I'm sorry say that again everything that you said about the authority of Scripture it's got to be according to God's Word just went out the window because what Paul wrote a song Cosworth I didn't say that what Paul wrote wasn't God's Word what I said was what Paul wrote was imperfect so the Word of God actually Paul actually makes that argument in first Corinthians chapter 15 as well for those that are getting driven he says for we know in part and we prophesy in part but when that which is perfect is come that which is in part will be done away with I'm not trying to be anti scripture I believe that the scripture is the firm foundation on which we stand no other foundation can any man lay except that which was laid by the holy apostles so I get that but but we're talking about the New Testament which is the New Testament that Jesus paid for with his blood so he speaks with authority about it and when the master says something we can't come along and contradict it or we can't make up stuff to add revelations so so are the red are the red letters more inspired than the black letters you know I don't want to have a trivial no I'm because it sounds like what you're saying is if it's in Jesus's words even though it's recorded by apostles so my point is Jesus is talking about Sodom and Gomorrha and he has every opportunity to talk about it in a negative and to extend this conversation over into homosexuality by virtue of the common understanding of the story of sodom and gomorrah and he does not what does he say about Sodom Gomorrah what specific sins does he list he talks about sexual immorality no no and when Jesus talks about Sodom and Gomorrah what specific sins let us know this gentleman do you have that verse he just references its destruction he didn't need to reference it since so but but I'm just confused though to be perfectly honest and I think others are confused when I asked you did Jesus ever consent can dem incest you said no Matt Hall did right okay well then that's not good enough because Paul's imperfect so maybe it's okay oh that's your argument that incest is though no I'm asking based on your reasoning sir with all respect so if Jesus didn't condemn it right and Paul did but Paul's in perfect we need Jesus to condemn it to satisfy you and he never did by name right so then it must be okay no well then homosexual practice did Jesus condemn it explicit you say no Paul did but Paul's imperfect right so we're both making the same argument about two different subject no I I think clear enough if it's not if you can't connect the dots there I have connected that okay all clear I could say the same thing back to you on the argument that you know all right so so well I'm 100% consistent okay that Jesus does not condemn homosexuality by name but explicitly condemns it in three ways in the New Testament and Paul explicitly condemns it and Jesus does not need to condemn incest because it was part of the law that he came to fulfill and bring to a higher standard there was no debate about it Paul simply affirms that anyway yeah and I I agree a thousand percent let me just read you get your comment on on this citation this is from the online gay lesbian encyclopedia on Paul's view of homosexuality says the meanings specifically in 1st Corinthians 6 the meanings these Greek nouns have been the subject of lively debate largely provoked by gay authors anxious to show that Paul in the early church had not intended to condemn homosexuality per se as harshly as been traditionally supposed but only a degraded type of pederasty associated prostitution and child abuse recent scholarship has shown conclusively that the traditional meanings assigned to these words stand now this is this is homosexual scholarship recognizing this how do you respond to that original meanings standing that this is that this refers specifically to well if I can give you specifically the low and needed definition arsenic oi tastes a male partner in homosexual intercourse homosexual then right below that mala costs the passive male partner in homosexual intercourse homosexual first corinthians 6:9 to 10 okay so if we look at what the definition you just read at that time it doesn't talk about anything but sexual intercourse is that correct that's what arsonists and Cueto would be male penetration male sexual activity yes one who does that and we have to to recognize not only around homosexuality but about other things in Scripture that the understanding at that time and the understanding now has changed we know that about a lot of things well you talked about creation and and whether or not you want to look at scientific I don't see it as contradictory creations creation they had a limited understanding of the universe they thought that the world everything revolved around the earth they thought that there was heavens and pillars and you know all this but we've come to know some different things and I think when we talk when the word changed when homosexuality began to be a part of translation which was in the 20th century prior to that time that wasn't used as a sodomite is a fairly straightforward everybody knows what that meant perhaps but I my contention is this we're not talking about two men who love each other who don't have wives who don't you know maintain separate household we're talking about about a different thing today we do not take our relationships lightly we believe in monogamy we believe in in responsibility and above all else we believe in respect and so homosexuality cannot be looked at from one prism and that is sex homosexuality is much more than that so the question I would have then is how could the New Testament writers have addressed what you have defined to be homosexuality or was it not simply not possible and therefore they're the the thesis of tonight's debate cannot even be answered because New Testament obedience on this subject could not possibly even be defined well New Testament obedience and I'm glad that you brought us back to that New Testament obedience says that we follow what Jesus commands that that's my understanding and when Jesus spoke to sinful people he did not ever talk about their sin he talked about God's forgiveness except in one instance he very much seemed to demonstrate a hatred of sin when it occurred from religious leaders and otherwise when he talked to in in Luke 7 when the woman came crashed the party I know you know what I'm talking about and she probably was a prostitute that's what scripture tells us yet Jesus said go and sin no more so so she knew that that was sin because it was revealed in Scripture right in Jewish culture perhaps yes a prostitute yes but is is that not is that not in Scripture specifically stated absolutely and Jesus said to her your sins are forgiven so whether or not she went to continue he didn't say go and sin no more to her that's not a description you don't you don't think that would be a proper given that the first preaching of Jesus and Mark is repent for the kingdom of heaven his hand if you do not repent you too likewise shall perish it might be part of his overall preaching perhaps perhaps thank you to our participants there was a very lively cross-examination we're now going to move into closing statements we'll begin with our affirmative side and again just a point of order this is a ten minute closing statement not a 15 just slight shift there we'll then move into audience question time so we recognize our affirmative side for 10 minutes - my thought process that was intriguing my position is as we've stated before that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should perish but have everlasting life I am in a little bit of a conundrum with how one believes on the Lord and become saved and then somehow or another because of a loving relationship one is negated that very same salvation which is afforded to him by the love of God I know that any of us in this room who would have had a gay and lesbian son or daughter who came out would probably be very upset in the beginning and over my experience with dealing with hundreds of young people I've heard all kinds of stories from their parents putting them out to their parents have you know being very angry with them in the beginning and but then there's a reconciliation period that does not involve that individual somehow becoming something other than they are and so I'm reminded of the scripture that says how is it that you being evil people know how to give good gifts to your sons I I don't understand how we come to the conclusion that such a loving God would cast out people for love I get the person who is out there being promiscuous and risking their lives and other people's lives partner after partner in illicit sexual behavior I get that I get somebody who leaves the confines of a foot of the fidelity of a marriage who's made a vow before God and who breaks that vow in the heat of passion and or in a calculated move I get why that person would would be in violation against the will of God I get why incest would be a prohibition I get why all of these sexual sins would be a prohibition I don't get why love and commitment that God calls for in his word is prohibited simply because of genitalia I don't get that and I don't find that in the Word of God I want to make this very clear I'm a gay Christian I have been all my life and I believe the Holy Spirit revealed to me if I am to honor God I am to honor God as a gay Christian it's very difficult for me to be able to say to you that I am Who I am and I understand many of you do not agree with that but I'm okay with it because above everything else I am a whosoever I believe in Jesus I have accepted Jesus as my sovereign and Savior and so I know that whosoever believes in Jesus is guaranteed eternal life I am in a committed loving relationship I have been for thirty years I believe that I am going to attain eternal life and you know the interesting thing is to me is that it's not any of our call anyway and if we can debate all we want and maybe some of us will be very surprised when we arrive in heaven maybe some of us will be disappointed that other people are there that we thought shouldn't be but you know it's really not our call there's a story about someone I hope that you admire as much as I do and that's Billy Graham and how he was kind of brought to task over not saying to President Jimmy Carter when he admitted to lusting in his heart not in reality that he didn't condemn him for that and Billy Graham said something that I think was exactly on target and it has become for me more or less a mantra it is the Holy Spirit who convicts not human beings it's the Holy Spirit who convicts the Holy Spirit will convict us of our sin it's the Holy Spirit that convicts that's the Holy Spirit's job it's God's job and God's job alone to judge we can say anything we want we can believe anything that we want to believe about another person how they live their life we can condemn someone from being too rich and not sharing that money we can condemn someone for not helping another person but it's God's job to judge period but we have a job - my friends and Billy Graham said it he said it's our job to love it's our job to love and so he said that because when he was criticized for not saying something to President Carter about the lust in his heart he said that's not my job my job is to love ya in the remaining time I did think about something that I didn't say I wanted to correct the record about Leviticus you look in your Bibles for yourself in Leviticus I didn't address Leviticus because we were talking about the New Testament but it's I've got eight minutes three oh I can't count yes okay Leviticus every other chapter there says Moses say to Aaron or Moses say to Israel it's very clear who he's talking to there in this audience of people I'd like to have some folks join me on my side if you look at the tags on the back of your shirts you'll see that some of you are not sitting here with pure fabrics that's a prohibition any of you that enjoy like I do crustaceans seafood with the that doesn't have scales on it that's a prohibition I see some males and some females who shaving their hair and weird the church there's ways that's a prohibition anybody with a tattoo that's a prohibition anybody who's eaten anything that crawled on the ground you know we like to shoot some stuff out of the off the off the telephone line that's a prohibition and on and on and on and on and on the Scriptures call not just a prohibition but use that same word abomination so I'm saying all of that to say this we need the redemptive blood of Jesus Christ we need it we cannot live without it and if anybody says that they are without sin I'm looking for some stones to come rolling up this aisle I'm not saying that homosexuality is a desire to life to live I think Ruth said it best if any of us could have chosen another way we we would have maybe there are some people who don't ascribe to that I'm not one of those people I spent 20 years in the church in a heterosexual marriage one my aim and ambition was to be an elder in the church and the only way you could do it in the church system that I belong to was to be married I didn't marry her for that reason but that was certainly along those goals my entire life has been to serve the Lord and to do so with gladness so the saddest two years of my life were the two years where I thought I was lost and that there was no hope for me because I did not fit into the mold that the church had created when I studied the scriptures for myself I didn't learn it from some LGBTQ side I don't read them cuz I often disagree with what's written there I don't like new theology I come from the old school give me that old-time religion it's good enough for me so I found the love of Jesus in Scripture for myself and I'm inviting anybody who knows somebody who has left the church because of no matter how welcoming your church is there are people who will not darken the doors because they feel like they're not welcoming it's no reflection on you it the feeling that they have I'm inviting those people to come to the called out believers in Christ Church 13:45 naira Street Jacksonville Florida where they will find people like them who love them unconditionally and where you don't hear sermons about homosexuality every Sunday you hear sermons about the love of Jesus Christ the unconditional love that's afforded to us if we'll just accept it and let the Holy Spirit do all of the changing and transforming that he is well able to do that's my closing statement thank you very much well now reset our clock for a ten minute closing statement from our other side and we will begin first may I present you with my book can you began Christian for your continued studies and and let me say with with utmost sincerity with deep love we've just met but with genuine love and and with degree a brokenness in my heart tears coming to my eyes God has a better way for both of you that's the love of God dewayne just underscored the point that I had made about dietary laws and clothing God never condemned the Canaanites for that he never condemned the nation's for that when it comes to incest when it comes to homosexual practice that comes to bestiality comes to adultery Leviticus 18 says this is wrong for everybody it's quite distinct read it through Leviticus 18 1 to the end of the chapter God judged the Canaanites and expelled them because of these very same sense what I found fascinating was we agree on the importance of monogamy where'd we get that from the consistent testimony of the old and the new testament the standards of the old reinforced in the new fascinating we agreed on incense there are scientists now that talk about GSA genetic sexual attraction and that family members have been separated for life meet later and have this tremendous love in connection and there are different countries now that are saying incest should not be illegal if it's adult and consensual in fact this being put gameofthrones pushes it all the different shows push it why do we say it's wrong even though the culture put there's a lot we love each other why not because the explicit testimony of Scripture Old Testament reaffirmed in the new and what's interesting is that their Jewish traditions that could have well been known in Jesus day that dog one reason God condemned the world and Noah's day was because men were marrying men was this concept is not a new concept you had a Roman Emperor marrying his male lover Paul was familiar in Greek culture of long-term committed same-sex relationships that's not new and and the Bible in many ways is written against the same cultural background this today and yet God's Word was explicit was clear with all respect to Dwayne and Ruth reaffirming Scripture reaffirming Scripture I heard a deep undermining of Scripture I heard a clear undermining of the authority of Jesus words as much as they were exalted because even though three different ways he made clear homosexual practice was forbidden that was put aside I I heard the dismissal of Paul's words as a product of their day and I heard the hint of Universalist and that all religions will somehow make their way to God you compromise in one place it will ultimately show up in other places as well and it's interesting when it comes to judging yes on the one hand when Jesus says don't judge list to be judged he's talking about judging superficially judging hypocritically and condemning and we don't sit here to do this but it comes to within the body people claiming to be followers of Jesus and practicing something that scripture condemns Paul says judge that one another it's an explicit command in first Corinthians the fifth chapter it is your job to do that in Jesus says in John 7:24 don't judge by outward appearance but Judge righteous judgments and that's why Billy Graham but he loved people I've gotten closer with people who are close with him what an incredible man he was and when you heard him preach he preached repentance he preached against sexual immorality preached against greed and and sins of our culture and interestingly when marriage was up for debate in in the state of North Carolina he paid for an ad to be taken out saying marriage is the union of one man and one woman because that's what love does love tells the truth and to everyone struggling with same-sex attraction to to those with family members I encourage you never to give up and to keep praying not so much to become heterosexual but to become holy and boy it's awesome when I get a call on my radio show I'm number one woman calling who would come out of lesbianism and said I'm so thankful my mom kept loving me she kept a relationship and she never quit praying for me and Jesus saved me and transformed me he's the one we preach he's the one we declare don't let anyone mislead you with empty words the words of Paul don't let anyone mislead you with empty words the words of Jesus why does the way to destruction straight is the way narrow is the gate that leads to eternal life god bless you I want to pick up in the last five minutes that we have in presentation on the statement that was made it is the Holy Spirit who convicts and that is quite true but we need to recognize that the Holy Spirit was the one who gave us the very precious words of Scripture our Lord Jesus himself in the Gospel of Mark said David spoke by the Holy Spirit and then what did he quote his own feelings no he quoted from Scripture and so when we say it is the Holy Spirit who convicts how can we tell who the Holy Spirit is what is that touchstone by which we will know when the Holy Spirit is bringing conviction well our Lord Jesus would tell us we have what he has given to us and there for it has to be consistent with this the revelation within scripture and when we say well you know Paul was imperfect and so what Paul said might be imperfect but Paul was himself as he himself taught I've been I believe all scripture is they induced us it is god-breathed and so when he speaks in Scripture yes he is speaking it is his words are being used but as Peter said men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit the Holy Spirit is not going to lead Paul or Peter or any of the Old Testament prophets into error as they are speaking from God my God is big enough to reveal his word in the words of human beings and yet it's still exactly what he wants us to have that's how big and how powerful he is and that's how the New Testament writers understood the Old Testament Scriptures that's how we should understand all of those scriptures and when we do that then for example does not the Holy Spirit tell us that the the way in which there is peace with God the Father is only in and through Jesus Christ am I being disrespectful to my Muslim friends when I stand in mosques in South Africa and proclaim to them that the only way they will ever have peace with God is in and through Jesus Christ and his sacrifice and faith in Him as he is revealed in Scripture because I do that and I am convinced that that's the proper thing to do and I am convinced that that's how I show love to my Muslim friends by proclaiming to them the single way that God has provided not many ways that's not disrespectful that's right I'll tell you what's disrespectful saying God has to provide many ways when in his son he gave His life on Calvary's tree to provide the one perfect way I say it's disrespectful to God to say you need to respect other ways other than the way that he himself has provided but is not that same Holy Spirit the one who clearly told us that those who engage those who are homosexuals in 1st Corinthians 6 I I read you the the lexical sources will not inherit the kingdom of God but such were some of you and therefore you were washed you were justified all that list in 1st Corinthians chapter 6 all those sins are forgiven the powerful blood of Jesus Christ and so when we talk about well the Holy Spirit convicts here's my prayer this evening but the Holy Spirit will convict all of us because it's so easy to say oh yeah yeah you're right about that but you know all those those vise lists all those sin lists there are a bunch of other things in there that everybody is sitting in this room is guilty of and so we don't we don't want to point out just one kind of sin and say that sin is worse than all others the reason we have to have these debates is because there's a movement in our day to say yeah those other things are sinful but this one thing God made me that way so we have to address it but that doesn't mean we get to ignore all the other things so as Michael said the the greatest way to address this subject is to pray that God would cause all of his people in all of their lives to seek after holiness in every aspect of their life because it is it is the lack of that holiness in their experience in all of our experiences that has given rise to the weakness of the testimony of the church on this particular matter and so I do believe it is the Holy Spirit that convicts and yet I believe the Holy Spirit gave us this we need to believe what it says thank you very much [Applause] thank you to all of our participants for this this debate this exchange of ideas we're now going to move into our audience question-and-answer time we've had some questions submitted on cards and there were probably about as many cards as there were people in the room so unfortunately we will not be able to get to all of them our format for this will be if the question is directly written and addressed to one of the participants then I'll ask it to you and you'll have 90 seconds to respond to that your colleagues on the other side will have 60 seconds to respond to your response if the question is not specifically directed then we'll just give 90 seconds to either side so our first question and I'm just going to read these as written Ruth how do you hear from Scripture excuse me how do you hear from God apart from Scripture I hear from God through prayer mainly I believe in prayer and I believe in listening not just talking to God but allowing God to speak to you I believe God is still speaking today I believe a lot of people aren't listening and so and I do believe the Holy Spirit continues to can convict today I don't think all the conviction was done and the Bible was written and the Holy Spirit was done I believe that God is still speaking and I make every effort I can to be quiet and listen prayer and answers to prayer are something that some people say doesn't work the church that I founded in st. Augustine the church that that still exists there we are praying church we send out prayers every week so God continues to speak to me through prayer and I firmly believe God continues to speak to everyone everyone if they're willing to listen and sometimes we're just inundated with so much noise around us out mean that literally decibels but so much noise around us but we just need to go and be quiet be still be still and know God and we can't do it if we're not willing to listen and we can't do it by listening no matter how wonderful people may be you can't do it by listening to me you can't do it by listening to anybody else everyone has a personal relationship with God and has a direct line to God thank you gentlemen you have 60 seconds to respond if you'd like I want to reiterate what I just said in my closing statement and that is God has given us his word and that is the touchstone by which we can test our experience and when we have a situation where there may be very strong desires in our hearts that we may feel very strong attractions to certain things that's especially when we need to have an objective word from God by which we can test what would otherwise become a subjective situation where we find in Scripture what we want to find the scripture that's why we have to do the hard work of consistently handling the Word of God that becomes the bulwark that controls us and that allows us to truly hear from God and the only way we can have a unified church is if you have everyone following after that objective standard rather than just going after their own feelings and expressions okay thank you our next question is not addressed to either side in particular it says God is holy and righteous sin cannot be where God is so how can someone claim that God made them sinful and I don't know whichever side wishes to start with that was it 90 for each or 60 90 seconds for each side I'll go ahead I don't believe that God made us sinful the scripture says that God made man upright but he sought out many desires and because of the fall of Adam we are a sinful race just like because of Adam we all died physically because of Adam we all died spiritually and then it's our nature to do the wrong thing one man said many years ago that human beings can go up or down just like a stone can go up or down let it go by itself it falls if you pick it up it goes up so that's why we agree that we need a Savior so we are born broken lonely another every parent here knows you didn't have to teach your child to say no or your child to disobey and every human being here knows that you didn't ask for certain things certain laws sir pride or attitudes or desires that's part of our sinful human nature but God's not responsible for that we are and again in ourselves we can't help ourselves save ourselves that's what we need a Savior so I would no more say God made someone gay and and by the way even if I believed that wouldn't change anything there was if I believe that someone was born to certainly say not God made them that way but if I believe someone was born gay there would be no different than saying they're born sinners we all need Redemption and the word from Jesus says you must be born again so no God does not make us sinful and any sinful desires and our lives are our responsibilities and ours alone but he'll help us if we look to him 90 seconds thank you for kind of segwaying exactly to what I was gonna say because Jesus says we do need to be born again born again of water and the Holy Spirit and I think that puts the power of the Holy Spirit to an a very important place again I want to say I believe God is still speaking and I believe God is still speaking to us by the spirit and I think if we are in direct contact with God which we should be all the time not just when we pray if we are open for God to speak to us all the time and for the Holy Spirit to guide our lives then we will be born again of water in the Holy Spirit and we will enter the realm of God it's very important to me and I hope to you that we have to be okay with what God is asking us to do and we have to be ok when God says don't do it and unspoken in all of that and underlining sort of the arguments that our colleagues are making here is this notion that the 66 books are the only way that God speaks to people now God God's not going to contradict what's in the 66 but when even when Peter and Paul were writing about how the scriptures were inspired holy men of old and that the what we call the Bible had not even been complete they were talking about what was already known through the old texts so anyway times I'm sorry thank you our next question is not directed at any side in particular I'll just read it as as written given the statement that this is how God made me in regard to homosexuality are you affirming that you are predestined to this behavior in violation of your own free will and are therefore unable to make a decision otherwise and since we started over here I think well says we since we started over here I think well now say something that'll get me in more trouble than I've been in the entire time I'm not a Calvinist so I don't know how to respond to that I'm not Calvinists each other so I don't really don't know how to respond to that we could have a whole night on predestination versus freewill and many times we get into those kinds of discussions I'm the one who said I believe God created me this way and I want to say again I did not choose to be created this way and I did pray and did everything I could to not be this way however God through the Holy Spirit and prayer revealed to me this is exactly the way God wanted me to be and maybe just maybe God wanted me to be able to say to people in the same struggle say to people dealing with the same things pray about it one thing I always say pray about it God will reveal to you the life you are supposed to live maybe you're supposed to Sullivan that's okay maybe you're not that's okay too maybe you're supposed to to seek a way to serve god that's unconventional fine if you listen to God and trust God God will show you the way and all of us who believe in that personal relationship with God and are willing to follow God's Way will help all of us reach the the life we should be living I think the Calvinist boogeyman got in the way of what the actual question was because when you think about it what's actually being asked is if you're claiming to have God have made you this way are you saying that there's nothing that you can do about that and you see that the point is I think Michael was just saying this let's say you you honestly confess that you've always had only same-sex attraction the question for the Christian is what do you do with that if you if you if you're a Christian and you have always struggled with tremendous anger or tremendous jealousy toward other people if you're a heterosexual male Christian and you have a horrific time with lust you just simply can't keep your eyes off the female form okay and so are you gonna say how God made me and therefore if the if God made me that way does that does that make it a good thing something that I can then engage in and something that is appropriate and proper and the point is we go to God's Word God's Word gives us a standard of who he is of what his holiness is and then that gives us the objective guidance as to how we as followers of Christ are to mortify the flesh no matter what those desires might be no matter what you know you may be giving great athletic prowess that leads toward pride pride is something you need to get rid of so that's what is revealed to us in Scripture thank you dr. Wyatt we are now have a question that concerns a specific scriptural reference so if we want to take a moment to turn there if you have your Bibles handy this is in second Kings 23 7 so we'll give a few a few seconds to get there before we ask the question second Kings chapter 23 verse 7 and so the question is addressed to Reverend Ruth and so we'll go with our our 90 seconds they're in a 60 second response so the question that is written is did God condemn or approve what Josiah did in 2nd Kings chapter 23 verse 7 and then in parentheses that says tearing down the sodomite houses prostitutes we're in the house of God where the women did weaving for Shara so do I believe that was it did I or do I agree with that do I believe that was true or what I mean obviously this is this is what we've been saying the whole time is that male prostitutes temple prostitutes which included women by the way that is not what God is is wanting people to do it's you might as well you know be a prostitute anywhere it doesn't have to be in the temple I think it's particularly egregious in the temple but that's not my understanding revealed to me by the Spirit of God of what being a homosexual committed loving relationship is not this tore down the temple the houses of the male temple prostitutes I'm not a male temple prostitute okay 60 seconds for our other side yes so the Hebrews clearly totes it latekka they seem so tore down the houses of yes male called prostitutes the point is that term is not used in the Vatican say teen or a parallel term in the Greek is not used in first Corinthians 6 in other words when there was a specific type of cult prostitute there was a way you said it and that's what's here so of course we all agree that that's wrong but there are also female cult prostitutes but was prostitution wrong outside of a temple yes of course so when the Bible condemns homosexual practice it condemns it in the plainest terms men being with men the way men would be with women exchanging the Creator order male with male female with female it's very explicit when it wants to talk about called prostitutes it does so of course we all agree that that was wrong but it also underscores that Leviticus 18 was the universal prohibition romans 1 first corinthians 6 are universal prohibition it's not just in connection with idolatry but what we we agreed that what was done by the king was a righteous act what we're saying is the cult prostitution was wrong yeah thank you gentlemen our next question is not addressed either side in particular so we'll go with our 90 seconds of peace and the question is how does homosexuality glorify God I guess my question did not question our answer so my relationship with my spouse glorify God glorifies God and that we use our lives our individual lives and even our coming together to bring honor to who he's created us to be free moral agents who use our lives for good who use our lives to help people my whole life does not revolve around what I do in the bedroom I think I made that clear I'm of a certain age it's not even I don't even care anymore really you know my life revolves around love it revolves around loving people it revolves around loving myself and it real of revolves around loving God which is what Reverend Ruth commented on from the very beginning the first commandment is to love God and the second is to love your neighbor like you love yourself so if you're asking how a sex sex sex act glorifies God I don't really know how to answer that question and I know that we could go back to that argument about having babies but then we've already talked about that before so if you want to talk about how love glorifies God god is love okay our other side question again how does homosexuality glorify God 90 seconds so explicitly it doesn't it's the violation of God's order and it's an expression of brokenness and something being wrong every example that was given about how Dewayne and his spouse glorify God that's just human beings doing good things it's nothing to do with homeless is zero connection with homosexuality so explicitly homosexuality does not cannot glorify God in itself and I would add to that that I believe that God is glorified when his law and his truth is obeyed and lived in light of and so since were given very clearly what marriage is to be and what its parameters are and that it is a man and a woman together then he is glorified when in that in obedience to what he is revealed we live out that gift that he has been given to us but God is not glorified when we say we're going to change the parameters of what you've given to us we're going to violate those parameters and then say this is glorifying to you anyways that again takes us back to the normative authority of what God has given to us in Scripture and I would say the very normative authority of Jesus's own words in Matthew chapter 19 okay thank you gentlemen our next question is and I believe this one was during cross-examination but perhaps it deserves another look not addressed either side in particular scripturally we're in the New Testament do we see homosexuality approved or accepted and whichever side wishes - okay moving on that's right there that question has been has been handled so okay this one is addressed to the affirmative team together how would you reconcile first Corinthians chapter 6 verses 18 and 19 while living a homosexual lifestyle and if we're gonna take a minute to turn there we can do that before the clock starts this is it for let me read for you flee immorality every other sin that a man commits is outside the body but the immoral man sins against his own body or do you not know that your body is a temple the Holy Spirit who is in you whom you have from God and that you are not your own okay time start yeah so I would have to accept the presupposition that homosexuality is sin in order for that verse to have the power the potency that it's intended to have by the writer the I believe that the writer is saying that homosexuality is sin and so therefore you're not glorifying God with your body and I just talked about how I believe that my relationship and all others like it do glorify God so I don't know how I would because the presupposition is that it's sin and if I can't so I agree with the text I agree with everything the Texas I just don't accept the presupposition good I mean it would you like to finish your time table okay all right 60 seconds say that the Sun 9000 yeah here's this is this is why this debate is so important the the term there is pornea and I do not believe there is any question whatsoever that the Apostle Paul would have understood homosexuality in this very same chapter he's already identified it as poor Naya everyone at that time there simply isn't any source that says otherwise and so you are risking you know you set you yourself were the one who said we don't want to wake up some day in hell you have nothing in the first century nothing in the New Testament nothing in the in the documents around the New Testament that would argue against homosexuality being poor Naya and there it is right there and you're risking everything on well I just don't think that's the case I pray for the conviction of the Holy Spirit because that is what is needed in this situation okay moving on to our next question again this one addressed to no one in particular it says if I continue to practice sin instead of righteousness will I die in my sin is that a general could you repeat that one more time Cherry's not address to anyone in particular it says if I continue to practice sin instead of righteousness will I die in my sin yes yes yes the defense rests think about that one a second there yeah and yeah we say yes yeah okay there was no no clock that made it so they all agreed on there we go sin is bad there we go okay this one I can only imagine will have dramatically different answers from both sides and it is not addressed anyone in particular I'm just gonna read it as it is written how can I high school youth who is straight defend against gay classmates defend against all right let's I'm assuming by defend against you mean defend the position when the defending against people you want to reach out to your friends you want to befriend those if if you have friends that are marginalized or mistreated or get pushed away you want to reach out to them and parents you want to teach your kids to reach out to the marginalized and have them over to your home and love on them if you mean how can you defend your position its first by understanding the Scriptures clearly and there may go through the debate again from tonight look at some of what we've written on this there are other websites that lay these things out clearly there's a great dialogue recently with Sean McDowell and Matthew vines that you could watch and learn from very useful where you get both sides presented in a way that would be good for it for young people so you understand the scriptures and then you reach out and and love people it's it's that simple and don't be ashamed of the gospel you're gonna be called bigoted and hateful now the tables have turned when that happens rejoice when people speak evil of you for Jesus rejoice because he gets cast out you get cast out with him but remember you're on the side of truth and Jesus said that the truth will set us free so learn the Scriptures understand the main LGBT talking points master the answers and then walk in love and reach out to everyone in 90 seconds for our other side if you'd like to comment I actually concur with everything he just said I believe that love is the best way to move forward as I shared with you before I spent the entire first part of my life in mainstream church quote and so whenever we would encounter people who were unlike us in any way shape or form what we were always taught to do was love them James talks about how if somebody comes into your congregation and they're different than you in any way shape or form he's specifically talking about the person who is dressed you know like a popper you love them you give them the seat of honor as opposed to the person who is you know looks like they're very wealthy I think that's the way to address anybody and I think that if we did that I don't believe that you're going to encounter the the persecution that Jesus describes in in Matthew chapter 5 I don't believe you're gonna get a lot of hate speech just because you tell somebody something if you tell them in love I know if I had encountered these gentlemen even on the street talking the way that we talked today I wouldn't have the ill thing to say about them I'd simply affirmed that's you know what you believe and I don't believe the same and if he wanted to do some other conduct I'd let him not be you know and I'd do some other conduct myself I don't think that I think that love begets love I think evil begets evil and I think that what happens is a lot of times we think that we're presenting in love and we aren't we are presenting the scriptures say we have to present the truth in love and that doesn't mean that we don't say things that people might consider it offensive we have to address things that we feel like the Scriptures speak against I do it in my church I have people in Agoura fest have people in our church who have these multi sexual partners when they come to the church and we sit down and we talk about the morality of it all and we use the scripture and many of the same scriptures that we would use that you've heard cited today we don't want to see people go to hell and I certainly don't want to go to hell we can prevent that by love and we have to understand what love is and love is that wagging our finger and being right love is love it's being patient and kind and all those things that 1st Corinthians chapter 13 talks about thank you for your responses on that one we have two more questions it's going to put us over on time by about 5 minutes but if everyone's in agreement we can handle these and then I mean conclude the event address to no one in particular it says my sister is gay it but goes to church will I meet her in heaven respond to that certainly God knows that's it God knows we don't and if if someone in their heart has accepted Jesus Christ as their sovereign and Savior if someone lives a life and unlike Duane was saying we don't advocate multi partners we believe in monogamy we believe in that and what unfortunately happens in families and since this was a sister question what often happens in families is there's less love and more judgment and when that happens you've broken down the whole idea of communication if you continue to speak in love to your siblings if you continue to speak in love in your family you can believe maybe different things and you may be able to transform each other 30 seconds remaining okay our other side 90 seconds scripture is very very clear in warning us do not be deceived neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor homosexuals nor thieves nor the covetous nor drunkards nor revilers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God but such were some of you the question is where are you on the spectrum of the verb of verse 11 such were some of you are we talking about a person who has same-sex attraction but does not act upon that is seeking to live under the lordship of Christ and to mortify the flesh are we talking about someone who says no this is good I'm going to promote this this is way God made me and I will not therefore repent then Paul's statement is very very clear and and just look at any of the other sins or to mention there any the covetous okay let's use covet just because who's gonna defend that right if you have someone who covets and says this is this is something that's good it's something I will not repent of this is how God made me I can't imagine myself any other way will that person inherit the kingdom of God the Apostle the inspired apostle said no because Jesus changes you but if you're on the other side of that verb but you were washed but you were justified you were cleansed that's the power of the gospel so it depends on where in that verb she is okay our final question is rather broad I believe so we'll go with two minutes two aside and this will be our final element of debate the question is do you believe in hell and if so who goes there we can start since they just addressed that question and we'll have a two-minute clock for this one I won't need that long I do believe in Hell and I do believe that anyone who Jesus says if you deny me before men I'll deny you before my father who has heaven in heaven but if you'll confess me before men I will confess you before my father who was in heaven Paul back to Paul says that if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that God raised Jesus from the dead then you shall be saved persons who reject the Lord Jesus Christ the lordship of Jesus Christ and persons who will refuse to confess him and believe on him will find themselves in hell very simple for me and I to believe the same thing and it's it is important thank you for bringing that that scripture up it is important that we confess that we believe in Jesus Christ as sovereign and Savior and when we do that we can all confess in front of anyone it's what I believe but we are all remember we are all sinners and we sin and every day in one way or another you walk by and not do what you know God is asking you to do you have sinned the sin of omission is more prevalent in my opinion than the sin of comission too many of us don't speak up don't speak out don't defend what we know God would want us to do but I believe if we allow the Holy Spirit to work through us if we confess Jesus as our sovereign and Savior and if we do not if we can possibly avoid it fail to do something we know we should do then yes I think then you go to hell and by the way one word I'm going to just grab from the last session we do not neither Duane nor myself promote homosexuality please don't I haven't gotten a toaster oven I don't do it some of you wouldn't even understand what that means but the thing is we're not promoting anything we are preachers we are pastors what we promote is God what we promote is Jesus Christ as sovereign and Savior we don't promote homosexuality thank you for that now our final response of evening 2 minutes gentlemen someone once said the problem with deception is that it's very deceiving and it's very well illustrated when we have folks right here on the same platform very sincere very passionate very serious about these things professing the lordship of Jesus and saying but we all agree on that if you reject the lordship of Jesus reject mercy through his cross and rejects his lordship you are lost you will perish there is future punishment which is the most dreadful subject imaginable and yet when the clear testimony of Scripture goes against what people feel in the core of their being what they ultimately do is reinterpret Scripture and that's the great danger confessing Jesus as Lord is not just words is confessing him as Lord and Jesus again says why call me Lord and don't do what I say so we all fall short but there's a difference between falling short and affirming sin there's a difference between falling short and justifying it and that is where the fatal flaw has been tonight and that is the great danger because if we do not have the clear light of God's Word shining into our hearts self-deception is very very easy especially when you're talking about something of desires that flow from the very core of our being we need to have that external objective source that's why Jesus directed it says worth if we really believe the truth about who Jesus was this these are his words it doesn't matter whether they're red or black they're all coming from the triune God and that triune God has revealed to us in the scriptures what his will is how he's created us and what honors him in our human sexuality and our relationships and I hope that has been made very clear this evening thank you very much for your attention and let's thank both sides of our debate here for [Applause]

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Length: 165min 42sec (9942 seconds)

Published: Mon Sep 24 2018