Sadhguru: Namaskaram (Laughs).
Prasoon Joshi: I think, Sadhguru, you've already started the beautiful poem,
I got in the middle of it (Sadhguru laughs). Sadhguru: So let me read it to you again full.
Prasoon Joshi: Yes, you have already set the mood. Sadhguru: It... It is about my little finger
(Few Laugh). Not a big subject (Both laugh), ‘My Little Finger’, it's called.
Enough of this false poetry. I break my pen to see that none
of it ever spills upon paper, but the green leaf sings its green poems.
And the brown one about to lose its perch upon the tree, murmurs its own.
The bird upon the tree sets music to its own kind. The insects are ardent
singers of their own bardery, and even the toads echo their gray verse. My heart has a mind of its own
and sings away against my resolve. Now can my little finger
be left behind (Applause)? Please, Prasoon. Prasoon Joshi: Sadhguru, I first of all, I think,
from the bottom of my heart I think this... this interaction is something which you accepted and
thank you for that, because it... it means a lot at these times… at these times when people are
actually facing a lot of questions. And there are various people, various sections of our society,
facing different kinds of questions. Well, there are a few who are in the lock down and
introspecting and talking about life questions, a few who are struggling on the street and have
very different questions. So I think all of us are going through various questions in our life.
So this... this is a time where we need to hear from you. And also I thought I'll share some
poetry and some of the work I've been doing. Sadhguru: We have some music
to start with, Prasoon. Prasoon Joshi: We thought Sounds of
Isha will set the mood for the evening. Sadhguru: Yes, they will (Laughs). Prasoon Joshi: Looking forward to. Sadhguru: They were getting depressed that we
are starting off without them (Laughter), so… Sounds of Isha music – Hey Mhari Heli Ye… Prasoon Joshi: (Applause) Sadhguru, first of all, thank you Sounds
Of Isha for this beautiful song. Before we start the evening, I... if you agree, I have
finished a poem yesterday which I want to give to the musicians there. And by… towards the
end of our discussion if... if they can try, I'm not... I'm not forcing them, if they want
to try till the very end of our discussion. Sadhguru: Oh, are we talking for
three days, Prasoon (Laughter)? Prasoon Joshi: No. No, we are talking for...
whatever time, I know they are magical. I've heard them before, so I will… Sadhguru, and very
fresh piece which dedicating to today's evening, I am reciting that and handing
it over to the musicians there, and we see towards the end of the
program we can hear something from them. Sadhguru: Mhmm. Prasoon Joshi: This is a little
small piece, a few verses. And we're just talking about what is happening to
us today. (Speaks in Hindi – not transcribed) Sadhguru: Should I say “Wah,
wah, wah” (Laughter/Applause)? Prasoon Joshi: (Reciting poem in Hindi – not
transcribed) (Applause). This, I am reading it for the first time (Applause), I finished it
last evening and dedicating to the evening today, and I hope we hear something from Sounds
of Isha towards the end of the program. Sadhguru: We'll have to keep on talking
till they get it ready, Prasoon (Laughter). Prasoon Joshi: We will. I have more
confidence in them, it seems, Sadhguru, than you (Sadhguru laughs). But they're
wonderful. Sadhguru, to set today's mood and you started the poem, already. What I
am… I’ve been noticing a lot of people have been doing a lot of work in our fraternity
also, a lot of artists have been coming out, and I've been speaking to my fellow musicians and
poets and other artists also, and there are two kinds of creative work which is emerging out of
this... these times. One is born out of tension, which I have always considered an integral
part of creativity. It's like, you know, without tension even a sitar does not give you
the right sound. It has to have the tension, the right tension in the... in the
wires to be able to give you the music. If it is loose, it doesn't give you that sound. So
that… one work is coming out of tension and which has got anxiety, which has got tension built in.
And another kind of work which has been coming out is kind of a self-expression, self-exploration
kind of work which is coming out. Sadhguru, you're... you've been writing poetry, you've been
doing paintings – to that... to those paintings, I'll come a little later. But what is your
inspiration, Sadhguru, when you are writing, you're creating, what kind of mindset you have
when you are, you know, exploring thoughts. Sadhguru: Oh (Laughs)... Prasoon Joshi: Now, I'm asking
Sadhguru as not a spiritual leader, I'm asking Sadhguru as a... as
a poet, an artist right now. Sadhguru: (Laughs) I... I don't definitely come
out of tension, nor is it a self-expression of any kind. This will... Maybe what
I say, will be little, what to say, off-key, or maybe even sounds little stupid.
Or maybe if you look at it from another side, it may look a bit arrogant probably. But the
reality for me is whether... No, you said “not as a spiritual leader but this...” but whether it
is, you know, whatever spiritual work we're doing or poetry or this artwork – don't tell anybody,
I'm just pretending to be one (Laughs) – suddenly I decided I will paint something. I've painted
many things in my mind but never painted with my hand. So I just started doing something,
because there was time and there was paint (Few Laugh). So, this may sound a little strange
or people may even think I'm trying to dodge the question, but I am not. Let me try
to find some kind of expression to this. When it comes to poetry I am like, it's... you
know, like when I write it, I don't even read it the second time and fix a few words or nothing.
I just write it, and that's it, I will just send it to the office, they will print it and then
send it back just to check if typos are there, that's about it. I don't think and I don't
write. I don't think of a particular concept, nothing. In some way, it's like I drip poetry
a bit. That same thing may be in some form, becoming some kind of a painting which… which I
don't think it's much of a painting, but people are saying it's good, people are buying it for
a very good price. So (Laughs) (Applause)... Prasoon Joshi: Yes, I heard Sadhguru. Sadhguru: That's their generosity, not my artwork. So, whether it... whether I am speaking or
writing, painting or doing many other things or I will put all these under the same category
– when I drive, when I ride, when I teach, when I write or paint or whatever – for me it's
just about the same thing. Something of me just finds... expression is not the word because if
you want to express you must have some thought or some idea or some philosophy or ideology.
It's like I drip these things. It's more of a drip than an expression. Well, sometimes if
the situation – not me, I'm always willing – if the situation is willing, I will become a
torrent, otherwise I will drip (Laughs). Prasoon Joshi: Yeah. Sadhguru, for you, what
I'm... I will, you know... of course you... you are humble, so you will not say that but
people, if you are connected... I had written a number of times about being a (Speaks in
Hindi – not transcribed). The question is... Sadhguru: Please tell me in
English, what is that dariya? Prasoon Joshi: So sir, the question is that...
the thing is that you are not the electricity, you are the wire, and electricity passes through
you and you become by accident an artist. That's how I have expressed a number of times and I have
felt also that where did the thought come from; sometimes you just feel that you are
lucky that the thought happened to you, and… so Sadhguru, one hand it is about being
a medium or being.... expressing the medium, where does then the craft come? Is… Is…
Is creativity inborn? We often hear that everybody's creative. What is your, Sadhguru,
take on that? Or is everybody creative to begin with? But then we see some people
create better, some people create well, some people pursue that. Is creativity
inborn or is inculcated or is nurtured? Sadhguru: I feel what we are looking at as
creativity, whether it is poetry or painting or various other kinds, whether acting or whatever
it is, is essentially coming from keenness of attention. Certain people are very attentive
to sounds and words and meanings, so they, you know, bounce back certain things. Certain
people are very attentive to forms, colors; they will find expression in a different way.
Certain people are very attentive to sounds; they may become… you know, may be able to produce
music, very effortlessly able to create those things. It is a question of attention, how keen
and profound is your attention that reflects in you, in some way. So, essence of what I've
been trying to do – I'm using the word ‘trying to do’ intentionally because I'm still trying
to do – is to get millions of people to become really attentive, attention without intention,
simply, intense attention without any intention, not towards anything, simply attentive. If this
one thing people do, every human being will be able to be very... multi-dimensional creativity
is very much possible. It's not that they have to practice, they have to do this or that –
what is lacking in human being is attention. So what is taking away human attention is
simply their own cerebral activity. People do not know how to handle their memory and
their attention separately. Their memory always floods into their attention and clouds
it, all the time. This memory... This clouding of the memory, people may call as thought
or emotion or whatever else they like to, but essentially it is the accumulated memory
which interferes with one's attention. Otherwise, it is very natural for you to be attentive
– when you're awake you're attentive, how else can you be? It is only
because memory seeps into every aspect. So, this is the fundamental work that I've
always been trying to do that people should be able to separate their memory, their attention and
their imagination. Imagination is not a problem, because imagination is an extrapolation of
one's memory in many different ways. So, this simple aspect of life that... See, all the
animals are very keen attention, but they don't have a vivid sense of memory as we have. They have
some memory, but not the kind of memory that human beings have; it's very vivid, like as we saw it,
we can remember, we can replay that whole thing, we can experience things that have happened
ten years ago, twenty-five years ago. Now instead of using this memory as a phenomenal
capability, most people use this to cause misery to themselves. What is it that human beings are
suffering? Most of the time they are suffering what happened ten years ago, and they may be also
suffering what may happen day after tomorrow. Right now these times are like that, people
are already suffering what is yet to happen. Prasoon Joshi: Sadhguru, very well said.
Sadhguru but, you know… so you're saying memory and so... and you talked about animals
who are in a complete state of bliss, out there. Sadhguru: No, no, no. I did
not say they're in bliss, no, they have their struggles, but
they are not suffering their memory, they are suffering life. Human beings are
just suffering memory most of the time. Prasoon Joshi: So where does the creative idea…
See, the…the… the desire to self-express, where is it born? Is it born out of a certain restlessness
inside or certain anxiety, otherwise why do I want to express myself? What is the (Sounds like –
need in it?) basically, and especially, Sadhguru, in these times, as you said, people are troubled,
and I have seen a lot of expression coming out if you see social media, and a lot of work has been
coming out, all kinds of, you know, anxiety has been showing there. I'm not saying there’s anxiety
in work but definitely great pieces of work also coming up. And one heard that in the times of,
you know, somebody said that in the plague times, Shakespeare, you know, went on to write a
lot of stuff and lot of art has been born. You know, if you look at Dadaism which was after
the World War, they started saying that “Why should art be special? And everything which is
ordinary is art. So hence there is no art.” So lot of… lot of these questions happen when turbulent
times comes. So is it important for creativity to have, like, a lake being shaken or the calmness
has been shaken? Is it important for creative work or ideas or poetry or music, an expression to
come out of some sort of turbulence or anxiety? Sadhguru: See, Prasoon, this needs to be explored
in a certain way. The problem with most human beings is, unless you put a pin into them they
will be half alive most of the time. Inertia is a choice that people have taken to. Because
of inertia, nothing may be happening. So, if you sit on a sofa, you become half alive. But,
suppose somebody put a pin there, the moment you sit there, you will become fully alive (Few
Laugh). So some people who are in that state, whenever threat comes, a war comes, or a
pandemic comes or something else comes, or in their own life some tragedy comes,
then they will become concerned about life. It's an unfortunate way to be, you must
have this concern every moment of your life. Concern is because of involvement, not
because of being instigated by some situation. When your concern comes out of instigation of
some terrible thing that is happening... that is happening right now or it's impending right
now, that is not the way. This is why I said attention, what is lacking is simple attention.
We know life only to the extent we are attentive to it. What is the depth of your attention, only
to that extent do you experience life. If your attention is very profound, your experience of
life is very profound. When your experience of life is very profound, will you definitely express
it? Not necessarily. It may find expression, it may find expression in just the simple work
that you're doing, it may find expression in poetry, music, whatever, that depends on things.
About Shakespeare creating King Lear when plague was on or, you know, Alexander Pushkin doing
something else when he was in quarantine – well, that's because of time. As I'm painting (Laughs),
I've become a painter now (Laughs), not because I want to express something, simply because there
is time. Otherwise I would be too busy to pick up a brush and do something. So, essentially if the
richness of experience is happening within you, it is always possible to find expression
in some way. What kind of expression you will find simply depends upon what…
what sort of attention do you have. Is your attention simply there for everything? Is
it like a simple light bulb – if you turn it on, light bulb falls on everything – is that
kind of attention you have developed? Or you attend to only certain type, some... As
I said earlier, somebody is paying attention only to the sound. So when hard times come,
unknowingly they may start creating music. Somebody is paying attention to only colors
or forms, they may start becoming... painting, or somebody is paying attention
to their thought process, they may start writing poetry or prose or whatever.
So essentially, most people can pay attention only to a certain thing that they think is
of interest. To be able to pay attention to anything without discriminating what
is of interest, what is not of interest, what is worth your attention, what is not
worth your attention – this is a wrong way to look at life. Because right now the
virus, see what a fant... – I mean right now I'm going to become extremely unpopular
– just see what a phenomenal thing it is, an invisible damn thing can make the whole
humanity go down on its knees. So, the source of creation did not pay any less attention to
creating a virus than creating a human being, obviously. So brilliant it is, we have no clue
what to do with it. All our science, all our medical science, brilliant people all over the
place, we still don't know what the hell to do, simply because virus is outsmarting us completely,
so obviously the source of creation did not pay less attention to the virus than it paid to
making you. When this is the nature of creation, who are you to decide what is worth paying
attention, what is not worth paying attention? Prasoon Joshi: Yeah, so Sadhguru do you think
that, you know, virus has an equal claim on the life on this earth, and we are… we are
sulking as a human kind far too much or virus has an equal claim on the earth. Is it, you know,
something which we should have... we should be, you know, looking at, you know, with... with
equal... equal right a virus enjoys to live here (Sadhguru laughs), or how does...
how does one see it? Is it an enemy, or is it... how does... because humanity sees
it as an enemy. And what I'm hearing from you is that virus is co-existence with us and so as
everyone, everything, every living being. So, what should be our response to a… as an
enemy or as a co-inhibitor? What is it? Sadhguru: See, right now in this body if you go by
the number, that is the number of cells that you have and the number of bacteria and virus that you
have within you, fifty-two percent of your body is actually microorganisms. (Laughs) I'm saying your
parentage, your genetics and who you are, doesn't exist in majority. If you go for election, they
win straight away even within this body (Laughs). Prasoon Joshi: Yeah. Sadhguru: So, anyway today we
have chosen to be democratic, that means they definitely are more significant
not just on the planet; in this body also if you take a planetary situation they outnumber
us a millions of times or trillions of times, there's no question about that. So our
existence is impossible without them, but their existence goes on well without
us. There's no question about this. They were here before us, they will be here after
us. So we came now, we have to... do we have to coexist? There is simply no other way. If you do
not have enough bacteria and virus in this body you cannot exist. In fact, many of the scientific
studies are now saying – the development of mammalian life on this planet was seriously
influenced by virus about hundred million years ago, that mammals which are primitive mammals
developed the ability to generate placenta in the body which is the main source of being able to
bear a full-formed child within the mother's womb. So virus has been playing significant role in
every day of our life. Today we got a virus from another place, that is, they were inhabiting other
animals for a long time, we... forever probably, but now it jumped to us. Why? Maybe there are not
enough of those animals, so they are looking for new terrain. So, even now, even with this virus,
it is only killing those people... virus has no intention to kill, virus wants to live and the
habitat is you. But it lives with such vigor, we don't have enough vigor to withstand that.
So, even now it is killing only those vulnerable sections of population largely, because wherever
immune system is not good enough, it's going down. As a generation of people, in modern life,
the way we are today, living in cities, living in... always on paved surfaces, not being
connected to the earth, our immune system if you look at people who lived here two hundred
years ago, who wor... who tilled the land, who were constantly in contact with the soil; to
those people and our immune system, I would say safely we are fifty percent less than what they
were in terms of immun... immunity. You will see, this right now, all these migrants, these
millions of people have gone from Mumbai, Delhi and everywhere, literally from
all over the urban centers to villages, but you will see in the villages such a wave of
killing will not happen with this virus, because generally people who are working with the soil,
their immunity is way higher than the city people. Prasoon Joshi: But, Sadhguru, this... this sounds
a very ruthless argument of survival to me, because you know survival of the fittest, and
when we come to a compassionate world where even the weak should survive. And that's what
the human civilization has been all about... Sadhguru: That is why we are
doing lockdown, isn't it? Prasoon Joshi: Yeah. But at the same time if we
consider virus, something which is, you know, surviving with us or not an enemy of us, but all
said and done, the human civilization we have created is created on compassion, on the fact that
the weaker sections of our society, weaker people, even they are older people, the emotion of the...
of people surviving, not necessarily the bodies. We were not interested in the fit
bodies to be... to be surviving, we are even considerate to people who are... who
are disabled, and we have to create a system which protects every... everyone around us. And that's
the reason maybe we are so… so much in awe of people who have gone out and actually, you know,
risked their lives for, you know, other people. And, Sadhguru, do you think that we will… if
we… if we talk about human civilization we have come to a juncture where we'll have to actually
truly decide which way we want to go from here, because this protected lives are also part of our
master plan that we are protecting each other, not necessarily the (Sounds like – bare?) plan which
used to be survival of the fittest in the jungle, where if you… if you… if you... I was reading
somewhere that the femur bone when, you know, and that was circulating in social media quite a lot,
that when people who... who are… who couldn't walk started surviving is when the human civilization
had a turn... turn... turning point, because before that people could walk or
for some reason, are limping will be eaten by the predators. And the moment they started
healing means somebody was taking care of them, and taking care of others became the basic nature
of human civilization. So do you think from here, are we going to a more ruthless world where
the fittest and more immunity… the people who've got more immunity will survive and
the ones we can't face it, will finish off? But that's not the world we envisaged. That's
not the human civilization we talked about. Sadhguru: No, that is not at all what I
was saying, Prasoon. What I'm saying is, nature or creation, out of its magnanimity
has given a certain sense of individuality or individual experience in our lives. But life
doesn't happen as individual. Life is happening as one whole. I'm saying this, without
the participation of bacteria and virus, there is no... no such thing as human life.
I'm... What I'm saying is, without us, they live well. Without them, there is no way
for us to live. So our idea of individuality we have taken it too seriously. This is our problem.
So slowly we are becoming such glass bubbles that we are becoming devoid of life. All we have is our
own thought and emotion. Our thought and emotion is a luxury when life is happening well. This is a
luxury that creation has allowed us. First of all, the great luxury and magnanimity is, though
we are nothing in this universe, in terms of size and value and whatever in this cosmos, in
spite of that we have an individual experience. We can sit here and experience ourselves as
individual self, which is not a small thing, it's a tremendous thing. It is out of that all
this thought, emotion, philosophy, civilization, everything. Having said that, now people are, you
know, in different countries, they're, you know, proposing different kinds of philosophies.
Somebody, you know, in United States they're saying, "We have the freedom to have
haircut. We don't like this lockdown, we want to have haircut, so we will go out.
So we'll go out with guns and have a haircut.” In India, you saw they opened the
liquor shops in Delhi and other places; you know what happened. So, these people are
now throwing scientific language at you and say, "The only way out is herd immunity." Herd immunity
means seventy percent… sixty to seventy percent of the population should get the infection, only then
herd immunity will happen. Herd – the very word ‘herd’ I don't like with reference to human beings
(Laughs), but they are looking for herd immunity. They are not talking science, they are pitching
for their own compulsions, they can't sit at home, they want to go out, they want to drink, they
want to have a haircut (Laughs). So if we go for herd immunity, we will wipe out the geriatric
population. We will wipe out all those vur... vulnerable segments of population – for some
reason, their immune system is down. I was not talking about that. I am talking about the way we
are forming life right now, the way we are living in the cities, we are living in such a way that
our life itself, the very life breath is weak. If you live like that, every single virus that
comes by in the next few decades or centuries, every one of them will threaten our existence.
This is because we have lost connection with how life happens. Life doesn't happen just
here. Life is happening all around – you need to imbibe it all the time. Otherwise, your
life is of no substance, it will go away. Prasoon Joshi: Sadhguru, this… this… this constant
struggle with nature, and please you… you can, you know, throw light on this, this constant
going loggerheads with nature is something which I probably feel was not part of at least Indian
culture, where I... I grew up in Uttarakhand, in the mountains I was born, in my childhood I've
been there… I lived there. I never competed with the... with the river. I bowed down to the river.
I was never... In fact, I did not even know that adventure sport will become such a big thing later
on and I would see whitewater rafting and stuff like that. When I go to the Rishikesh today, I see
that. But in my childhood I saw more befriending the nature, more bowing down to nature, more
taking orders from the nature and when the sun is down, is the time to sleep. You know,
there was certain, certain respect and rhythm, which... with which we were brought up. Where
did we go, you know, getting into conquering nature? And where did human civilization start
competing with nature? When did this happen? Sadhguru: Well, in 1947, the… when the British
left, our brains also went away with them (Laughter). So now, whatever comes from there,
that's what we do. So, this whole, you know, brutal way of producing things. Well, yesterday, I
was talking to somebody from Manchester, so I was telling him, "You are the guys who started this
whole business of mass production. And for this mass production, you started mass production
schools, all you have is nuts and bolts; half of them are nuts, half of them are bolts"
(Laughter/Applause). They, of course, fit into the economic engine somewhere and they're useful.
But what kind of usefulness is that, when people don't live, when people don't have profoundness
of experience of life that all my... the value of my life is, you know, I am worth two billion
dollars? I am not, I'm telling you (Laughter). But the value of my life is some number, in my
bank account or the area of land that I own, so, we have created this thing that our
accumulations are the value of life. See, this is something you must see – still
fortunately prevalent to some extent in Tamil Nadu – suppose you go to a function, let's
say you go to a wedding, if you see outside the choultry, (Referring to wedding hall) –
usually South Indian weddings 5000, 10,000 people would have gathered, we have to change that now
with social distancing (Laughs) but – if you go there, you will see every kind of vehicle will
be parked, Bentleys and Mercedes and this and that and everything and also lots of TVS mopeds
and bicycles and everything. If you go inside, if you go towards the men's section – if you go
towards the women's section by looking at how many kilograms of gold is around their neck, you
can judge who is rich, who is poor but – if you go towards the men's section, everybody will be
in the same white starched shirt and dhoti. You cannot make out who came in the Bentley, who came
by TVS moped, they will all be same, they will sit in the same place, without any distinction. Only
by age and respect they get some prominent place, not because how much money they have, how much
property they have. This has always been the ethos of this culture, but now we became a number game.
How much money do you have, accordingly… So who... If you say a big man in this town, what does the
big man mean? Does it mean he has a big brain or does it mean to say he has a very big heart?
No, it means he has a big pocket, nothing else. We've just reduced ourselves into a marketplace.
Marketplace is not just in the Dalal Street. Dalali (Referring to Hindi word – brokering)
is happening in everybody's minds and hearts. When people are getting married, they're...
before marriage they're signing a prenuptial agreement – when we part, who gets the dog,
who gets the car, who gets the house. Wha... How do you weave two lives together when
you have such a calculation in your head? I'm saying this is in many ways destruction
of human civilization. Civilization means, as you said, it is born out of compassion and
love for… and concern for other lives around us, that it is not about survival of the fittest. Now
we are once again going back to survival of the fittest in the name of so-called modernization,
this completely convoluted idea that being modern means you have to be Western has to go.
Even in United States, there is a… quite a significant movement starting now that you know,
people should not be recognized for their wealth, for their money but something else – what
that something else they do not know, they're struggling to find that something else,
but at least there is a thought and there is a movement in that direction. And you see the
richest people wearing all torn clothes, but unfortunately the torn clothes cost thous... you
know, thousands of dollars because of the tear. Tch, if they genuinely wear the same thing
what the poor people wear, which happened in the sixties, you know, when everybody
started wearing the same kind of clothes, we don't want to be looked upon as, ‘this is
rich, this is poor’, no, everybody wears the same sort of clothes – that was a good thing. But
now, a tear is costing you a 1000 dollars more. If it's not torn, it is less; if it is torn,
it's more. This is again another convolution. So fundamentally this market mentality in our
head is going to be in many ways destruction of our civilization. When I say destruction, it
need not necessarily mean death. Death is a relief in many ways. When human being starts suffering
immensely, death becomes a relief for most people, but destruction in terms of the fundamentals
of why we come together. The reason why we come together in the form of a village or a
town or a city is because individually if we exist in nature, there are too many challenges,
every day, to survive. So we came together so that all of us can survive with the kind of
a – what – coalition of our capabilities, a cooperation of our intelligence. This is the
reason why a society is formed. But is that the way our societies are building themselves up?
Societies are worse than the jungle now. The social situation in the cities is worse than
the jungle in terms of survival of the fittest. Prasoon Joshi: Yeah, Sadhguru. So definitely you
know, what... what you talked about. And... And I was referring to nature and I was... my
question was also about that how the man is competing with nature. And I think somewhere
that has resulted into us... even in... when the Kedarnath happened in Uttarakhand, I had
written a poem also about that. Somehow, if you go to the rural… the rural
area (Overlapping conversation). Sadhguru: You mentioned Kedarnath, I
have something to say about that. Can I? Prasoon Joshi: Yeah, please, please, Sadhguru.
So my point was that... that time also, you know, I've been brought up in that belt, I know, you
know, they were even not allowed to speak loudly in a vicinity of the temple and the jungle. They
said that vandevi (Referring to Hindi word – deity of forest), you know, gets disturbed. There was
a way of building folklore tales, religion into respecting nature that you should... you should
not do it, because the vandevi will hear it, and she will get disturbed. Now, as a child you
heard that, so, in that vicinity, forget building homes, forget digging that place; you didn't
speak loudly. Now this is the way we respected the nature and the delicateness of the nature and
the nuances of the nature and the murmurs of the nature. Somewhere that disconnect has come. Is it…
You're saying part of market economy, is it come because of the market economy and consumption
economy? And Kedarnath of course. So I… Sadhguru: No, we lost the necessary awareness
to keep the market in the marketplace, we got the market in our minds. That
is a big problem. About Kedarnath and the place where you come from...
What, you are from Joshimath, hmm? Prasoon Joshi: That side only, I'm from Almora, but, yes, that whole Garhwal
belt _____(Unclear) belt, yeah. Sadhguru: See, from the age of nineteen,
twenty-seven years every year I trekked that region, the Char Dham region, mostly alone and
later on I started taking a few people with me. So about Kedar (Laughs), Oh, I don't know how
many dozen times I've been there. But I didn't stop at Kedar, I went further up to a place called
Kantisarovar. This place is very important for us because this is where Adiyogi first started the...
his first yoga program, for the seven disciples of his, today known as the Saptarishis began in
that place. So, when I went there to... to this Kantisarovar, it's a glacial lake, this is what
burst and became a flood a few years ago. So, when I went there, I saw this is a glacial lake,
an incredibly beautiful place. And every year, because the glacier pushes this rubble and
rubble has become like a dam, and it holds the water there. And when I went there, the first
time when I came down, I met an army captain. And, you know, he – because those days even
getting a chapati was a big problem, it was not like how it is today, too many tourists
and all that, so I went to the army camp to get myself a meal – so he invited me, and he was
interested (in?) who I am, and we were talking. Then I saw that Kantisarovar is sitting up
there, a dam which is just by pebbles… rubble that is moved by the glacier. So, inevitably,
inevitably, once in whatever number of years, some geologist or somebody can make a
calculation, but in my simple calculation, I know, maybe once in fifty, sixty or hundred
years' time, inevitably that lake has to burst and come down. And now we... if the lake bursts and
come down, where it will come, that valley, there they've built all these silly hotels – hotels
means very basic dwellings at that time – and above all, the army camp was also in that valley.
Then I said, "See, all these idiots, they've put up this stuff right here, when the lake opens up
one day, it will wash them out. That is, they have no sense of anything, they've put it up there.
But how can the army engineers put it here? Where is your sense of strategy that you put army camp
also in this?" One part of the army camp was also into the valley, one part was built on a higher
ground. I said, "How can you do this?" He said, "Oh, how do... how do you know this?" I said,
"Well, go... you have been there." The army people are always trekking to that place. I said, "See,
the volume of water that is there, inevitably it's going to open up someday. All right? When the...
one hot summer, when it is hotter than usual, then the amount of melting that happens, it… it is
bound to open up, there's no question about that. It is a natural phenomenon, it has to happen. And
when it happens, you have so many people living here. If it happens, it will inevitably happen in
summer, not in winter, that is when it melts. So obviously it will come." He said, "I will inform
my officers about this." I said, "That is fine, but why, why is it that we are not thinking?"
Why you should not even speak is, because in the valley the reverb is such, if you just clap
(Gestures) your hand, you may start an avalanche. That is how reverberations are, but here we went
and dug tunnels, we built dams. (Laughs) Ganga, you know, right from ancient times... Well,
what happened in ancient India nobody wants to believe that anymore. There is a whole... As I
said, our brains went away. But even the British, the English always took Ganga water in the
ships because that was the only water which stayed fri... fresh up to sixty days on the ships.
All other water would go bad. Mughals, when Akbar and all went on campaigns, for his personal use he
carried only Ganga water. Because otherwise other water would go bad, and he didn't want to drink
water just about anywhere. He carried Ganga water, because it gave him a new sense of vigor.
Our Sunderlal Bahuguna, I went to meet him at that time wanting to become a full-time volunteer
in Chipko Movement, I only met Vim... Vimala Devi, but I didn't get to meet him. He repeatedly
said, he was... all his ailments went away just by drinking Ganga water. I must tell you for
days on end, I've been without food, trekking in the mountains, just living on Ganga water. This is
not because of somebody's belief. This is because of thousands of years of experience of people –
we know this is what this particular water does to us. People think this is religion, this is not
religion, this is just basic sense. It is true now somebody is selling mineral water which comes from
Switzerland and say,” This is thousand years old.” This cost this much, that much, it costs hundred
times more than a liter of water anywhere else. People are buying and drinking that. When that is
sensible, if you say gangajal (Referring to Hindi word – water of Ganga), suddenly in the country,
it's become like you're some kind of a fanatic.
Prasoon Joshi: Yeah. See, the problem is, I think
– Sadhguru, very well said and I think it needed to be said – that somewhere a lot of things we
did, everything which has an experiential value, which had an experiential value, we converted into
exchange, exchange value. If there is no exchange value, it's not important. A fire goes and burns
a jungle, it's not important and reportable for journalists, because it does not have exchange
value. A oil tanker bursts, suddenly because the market fluctuates because of that, suddenly
it becomes important. So anything which does not have exchange value became unimportant for
us. Somewhere, I think I would want a little bit of poetry as we had decided today. And
I think one poem I wanted to read is that; is us in whom all kinds of people reside. You're
not one. You... You have other people living in you, you have various sides of you. So, this
poem is called "Tujme koi aur rehta hai," and then I would… Sadhguru, of course we would
be requesting you to also recite some work. Because this is a combination of poetry and...
and also I have to definitely ask you question about your painting. Tujme koi aur rehta hai
– Somebody else resides in you – that's... but I'll read it... I'll explain it to you later.
(Speaks in Hindi – not transcribed) (Applause). Sadhguru, this is about exploring yourself; and
the stupidity or the destruction resides in... very much in you, and it depends which chord has
been struck. And that's where someone like you, Sadhguru, comes in, who strikes and evokes
the right side of you. Do you think, Sadhguru, in... in a human mind or human
being, the good and bad resides together? Sadhguru: Well, I would like to separate the human
mind and the being. About so many people residing in us, my entire life's work is that I exorcised
all of them (Laughter/Applause). My... My ancestors, my parentage, my teachers, my friends,
my loved ones, I exorcised all of them and... Let me read this poem. Because you said this, I had
this ready. Let me see. And anyway, I'm going to send you... I'm going to literally torment you
with... I'll send five hundred poems to you, you must write a introductory, I'm publishing
a book, five hundred poems (Laughs) (Applause). So, this is called “Empty Page”. When thoughts that are too profound for words form
in one's mind, heart swells, lifts tides high. The veil of time cracks and reveals the
roots of past and what portends as future. When thoughts that are too profound for words form
in one's mind, heart swells, lifts tides high. The veil of time cracks and reveals the
roots of past and what portends as future. A man who lives through this, is no more
just a man, the world will label him a sage. But in truth, he is a fathomless empty page. A man who lives through this, is no more
just a man, the world will label him a sage. But in truth, he is a fathomless
empty page (Applause). Prasoon Joshi: Nice, Sadhguru, very nice. Sadhguru, just picking
on one (Overlapping conversation)… Sadhguru: If I can... If human experience in
many ways is reflection of what we perceive, if what we perceive sticks to the mirror of our
minds, suppose we have a mirror at home and you have appeared in front of that mirror 10,000
times, even if it remembers ten percent of your past appearances, that mirror is no good
mirror anymore, it's finished. You have a mirror, it reflects you perfectly well right now, the
moment you're gone you're gone, totally gone, no memory left. So the entire spiritual work
is just about that, you want to exorcise your parents, your friends, your loved ones,
your ancestors, your genetic values, your... even evolutionary memory, so that
when you sit here, you sit like an empty page. So, all these people who reside within us, means,
in some way we are yet to become an individual, because an individual means something that is
not further divisible. If there are... If there is a crowd inside, this is the only reason why it
is so hard to transform people, because they have loved ones in their heart. They are willing to
give up their enemies, at least outwardly. But they have things that they like they can't give
up. With a crowd inside, you cannot go through transformation. To transform, first of all,
you must have a form. A crowd never has a form, it's a nebulous piece of thing. As you said, this
moment you are a symbol of peace, next moment you are violent, next moment you are this, next moment
you are that, simply because it... crowd is always a nebulous form, it is not a form. So when we talk
about transformation, the first step is to become a form. It is just reverse of what you want. First
you become a form, you become an individual form, then only you can transform. If you remain a
crowd, there is no room for transformation, you can just make the... you can make the crowd
more complex by peppering it with more stuff. Prasoon Joshi: But, Sadhguru, it’s a great
thought but at the same time going back to what we were talking earlier – now, India has
been a collective society where your existence, your individuality did not matter that much as
now – me, myself, people have started talking, children have started talking about, ‘me
time,’ you are talking about ‘me’ being very, very important. In fact, I was trying to see and
people are saying that you know we have to become more participative, interactive. And if you
go back to the tribal... tribal culture, I think even art is very collective, you see
the tribal dancers, they don't... there is no active performer and a passive audience, there
is an active performer and an active audience, where they are co-creating something, they're
together. In folk songs, I've seen that people participated in folk songs and you see that people
get up, sit down, they perform together. There is not a individual which is trying to outshine you.
And if I have become a seeker of individuality, don't you think this individualism will
lead into a society which is very selfish? Sadhguru: See, there is something called
an individual, which is a nature's gift to us – creation’s magnanimity has been showered
upon us that we are individuals. Individualism or individuality is something that you philosophize
your individuality and try to build something else out of it. Now, when you say, ‘this society was
not individualistic’, that is not so, because this is the only culture which has been talking
about individual mukti, individual transformation. Everywhere else they've been talking about
collective stuff and that's the reason why today individualism is spreading from the West not
from the East. But here also we have become more West than West, that's a different matter,
but I am talking about West and East more metaphorically, not necessarily geographically.
So when we say, ‘we are a society’, if you look at all the religious teachings in the western
cultures, everything, they always talked about the herd and the flock should grow together.
That will never happen with the human being. Individuals will always grow as individuals, but
individualism is a reaction to this flock that they forcefully made. When you make them flocks,
now, there will rise individualism. Here every individual was always allowed to seek his own
spiritual path. It doesn't matter... see, right now in every other religion once you say, ‘this
is the word of God’, you must just follow that, because God has said it. But this is the only
culture where even if so called god-like entities came, we only argued with them, we only debated
with them, we only asked them thousand questions. You just see Shiva tries to speak to his wife
(Laughs). She freaks him with thousand questions. Krishna after many years of waiting, that too at
the edge of a battlefield tries to speak to his... this one guy who is so dear and close to him.
Look at that guy, how many questions! And look at me – all these idiots, asking how many questions
every day and night (Laughter/Applause)! Because… Because in this culture, individual growth
is most important. So this is what logical mind fails to understand – growth does not mean
you will become a big individual, growth means your individuality dissolves, and you become
universal. But instead of being an individual, you try to make a herd. Then in reaction,
people develop philosophies of individualism, this ‘me-time’ has come now. Time is there
for all of us, who is stopping you? What is this ‘me-time’? ‘Me-time’ means you get
lost, that's me-time (Laughter/Applause). Prasoon Joshi: Sadhguru, what I was... I
absolutely understand what you’re saying and, you know, final dissolving and finding oneself, what
I meant was… this four line I’ll read. See, I have used the metaphor of, you know, a diya, a lamp
quite a lot. And mostly I've used it in a sense that the one which fights with the storm, and, you
know, shines. But I was talking about the mothers, the silent people ____(Unclear) our lives, our
relatives, our teachers who are different kind of lamp. And I said, I wrote this kind of a little
humor in it. (Speaks in Hindi – not transcribed) Very domesticated lamp you are. (Speaks in
Hindi – not transcribed) (Sadhguru laughs). This is a different kind of lamp I was
talking about (Sadhguru laughs) (Applause). Sadhguru: See, if we... if we look at our own
mothers… Please, whoever will listen to this, listen to this carefully, because I'm not saying
this with any disrespect or without appreciation of what these garelu diye (Referring to Hindi word
– homely lamp) – people (Laughs) – without them life is not the same (Laughs). Okay? So let's say
we take our mothers as example. If we look at it from outside, in today's context, the way people
are looking at life in today's context, not when we were growing up, we did not see it that way.
Now, when we look at it from today's context how everybody's talking about ‘me-time’, such a
thing never occurred to our mothers, no ‘me-time’. Because... Is it because their selfless service,
they're dedicated? It's not like that. It is just that they formed their identity little larger
than themselves. For them ‘me’ was ‘my family’. So, this situation happened when I was about
twelve years of age. I mean today, I know, especially in the West and also in urban
centers in India it's becoming necessary that mothers have to tell their children every
few days, "I love you, I love you," otherwise children will question, "Do you really love
me or not?" Because they want something, if you don't get it, suddenly a doubt arises
whether my mother loves me or not. My friend's mother loves him more than my mother loves
me – this kind of things are happening. Such things never happened to us nor did our
mothers ever say, "I love you," to us. Never once my mother ever said, "I love you."
But that was never in question. She lived for us. It is not even that such a thought
existed that she lived for us and all this, but there was no such questions because they
created an ambience, where such things did not arise. So when I was around twelve years
of age, she had this – I don't know if I have to call it a habit or a weakness or an insight
– that she would end up sharing things with me like I'm almost like her elder brother. She never
treated me as the youngest child in the family. I was never treated that way, I was not cuddled,
I was not carried because I didn't like those things right from a very early age (Laughs).
So I was... she would share things with me sometimes that she wouldn't even want to share
with her husband that she worshiped, literally. So one day, some emotional situation, not exactly
"I love you" kind of stuff, but she said something which is expressing her emotion to me. Then...
By then my mind was crazy with questions, then... by then I’d produced a few... I was also
a billionaire by then, because I had a billion questions (Laughs). So, when she expressed this, I
asked her, "Suppose I was born in the next house, would you still feel this way about
me?” I thought it was just a question, but her eyes welled up with tears, and she
walked away. I thought, "What did I do wrong, I just asked a question?" But after about ten
– fifteen minutes she came, and I was still there. And she came and touched my feet, like
she would do to some elder. She came and held my feet and did like this (Gestures). I thought
what's happening here, I'd no clue at that time, but I just asked a question and it evoked so many
things in her. Because at that moment when I asked that question, it struck her so strong, because
she wouldn't feel that way if I was in the next house, I'm sure. I just asked a simple question
in my mind, because I was a billionaire, you know – a cloud of billion questions were always
following me at that time. It took me a long time, full-time dedication to clear up all that cloud.
So, this garewal... What garewali hmm? Garewali? Prasoon Joshi: Garelu. Sadhguru: Garelu
(Laughter/Applause)… See, don't... Prasoon Joshi: Domesticated. I have to
spend some more time with you, Sadhguru. Sadhguru: To teach me some Hindi (Laughter)? Prasoon Joshi: I have to come to the ashram. Sadhguru: Garelu diya, right? So, these people
shine not because they want to shine. These people shine, simply because inclusiveness
has become their way of existence. If only their inclusiveness grew beyond the family, they
would become fantastic, which my great-grandmother was – she was, you know, somebody that everybody
came to. Always I saw this happening. My grandfather is a big, you know, moneyed man.
Everyday in the morning, transactions happen, people come for payments, this, that, and there
he handles it in his own way; like a king he sits there and deals with things. In the backyard, my
great-grandmother sits there. After they're done with horrible transactions with my grandfather,
they will always come to visit her. They have no need to visit her. She's not going to give
them a rupee because she doesn't have any, but they come there simply because they like
to be with her, they'll simply hang around. She will just abuse them nicely, lovingly abuse each
one of them (Laughter). The more... The more she abuses them, the more they love her (Laughter).
So her inclusiveness went beyond the families. Suddenly people almost looked at her worshipfully
simply because of that. So, what we say as mother, you know, a few days ago was Mother's Day, today
is some Nurse Day, whatever – all these things what it means is, somewhere your care and concern
went beyond your individual nature. You did not take your individuality too seriously. Nature has
given you this out of magnanimity that you have individual experience. Don't become too serious
about it, because that is not true. When the virus comes, at least you must realize, you're not
really an individual, they are living within you. Prasoon Joshi: Exactly. Well said, Sadhguru.
I think… to your point and I think if... if our… if these mothers and these grandmothers
and these… these were too individualistic, and they... if they did not sub... were not ready
to subsume their identities and look after us, we would be, I think we've talked about it
earlier, that, you know, we never called them working women, we called them non-working
women, because they did not bring pay-check. Sadhguru: They were having a love affair. Prasoon Joshi: Yes. Sadhguru: Yes. Their love affair with
not just with one man, their love affair with whatever they considered as theirs,
absolute love affair, totally all the time. Prasoon Joshi: Yes. And I think we are the
product of that... that care and love and that love affair. And I think we have
not done badly. So I think that… that… that… that whole structure was... was somehow
very good. Sadhguru, coming to your painting, I think I was intrigued that I was looking
at... I always look at your work with a lot of admiration and respect. And... And I have
also asked you earlier. Sadhguru, your imagery of snake, now, of course, you've talked
a lot about snakes and the significance of it and especially the audience who’s
sitting there, they are much enlightened, but I still would want you to talk about why
does in your subconscious, to the conscious, everywhere this occurs a lot? What is the
significance of snakes, and... and also why does it connect? Why does it connect with all of us?
We all of us get, you know, mesmerized, entangled, intrigued, inquisitive about seeing snakes in
any form. What is that so mystical about snakes? Sadhguru: Oh, you opened up a Pandora (Laughter).
When the snake comes out, it'll become an endless story, Prasoon. Maybe they will get to find
music for your poetry by then (Laughter). Prasoon Joshi: Yes. Maybe I'm doing
it for that (Sadhguru laughs). But a little brief touch upon it,
Sadhguru, would be great, I feel. Sadhguru: I will... I will do that. But for
many people who will listen to this and you also because you're a intellectual person
– an intellect will naturally try to find meaning. Meaning is very important for
an intellect, because anything that you cannot strike down with “this is the meaning
of this,” intellect becomes uncomfortable. It cannot exist in a meaningless space. So I'll
read this little poem for you, and then we'll talk about the snakes, because I don't want
people to give meaning to me and my snakes. Prasoon Joshi: And then I will also... I’ve
used snakes in a very different context, I will also read that for you(Sadhguru laughs). Sadhguru: This poem is called, ‘Of Meanings’. Call it what you want – love,
friendship, purpose or even God, you are scanning the invisible for an illusion
that may assist your life to find meanings. In abandoning this search, shall you find
the invisible presence sans meaning to ride this great phenomena of creation,
without contamination of meanings. (Applause) So please do not contaminate my snakes
with meaning, because... well, at one time I died because of a snake bite, at another time, I have
come alive because of snake... snake bite. Well, after making a wreck of my body after the
Dhyanalinga consecration, today I'm, you know... If you had seen me fifteen years ago, today I look
much younger, better, healthier, everything – not because of the lockdown, even before that, I'm
saying (Laughter). Snake's venom and snake’s connections with me have always been the source
of strength for me. And let us not try to find philosophical or mystical meanings in that. There
is... There is creation, which all of us can see and feel with our five senses. But it's very
obvious that there is something creating this. Being human beings, the first simplistic thought
that comes to human mind is, it must be some man creating up there. Somebody who is sitting up
there, who has a head office up in the sky, and from there he is creating this. That was
a... That looked like a relevant explanation when our idea of creation was just this
planet. Once we saw creation is such that this planet doesn't even matter, it is such
a small thing, in that we are even smaller, though we think too big... too much of
ourselves, it is nothing. When we saw this, suddenly this idea of one man sitting up
there and creating is becoming irrelevant, though few people are still hanging on to it. But
generally that is dissipating and fifty percent of the world's population beginning to question,
“Why is it a man?” that itself dismantles the man, fifty percent. And this is happening.
Why I'm saying this is, see, we're always trying to find an explanation.
Why we explain everything to ourselves and in turn try to force it on everybody else is
because mind cannot live without meaning. When I say mind, I'm talking about the intellect,
cannot live without a meaning, it needs a meaning. If there is no meaning, it will become disturbed.
Now the most important aspect of exploration is, if you want to explore, whether it is
science or you're just a wild explorer, there is no more room on the planet to explore,
but if you are an explorer of space or whatever, or you are a spiritual seeker, the most
important thing is you don't make up meanings. You don't look for meanings. You
just look for how to deepen the experience, how to make this experience of life more profound
and more profound, because only what you have experienced has actually lived with you. Meanings
come and go. You see how every... every two years, three years, scientific explanations are coming
endlessly. That means we are admitting we were wrong all this time, clearly. So what is the
guarantee you're right this time? There is no such thing. So, profoundness (of?) experience
is more valuable than you finding a meaning, because meaning is just a logical
conclusion we make about something. Having said that, ‘Why these snakes?’
– see, among various creatures which exist in... on this planet, different animals
have different kinds of capabilities, they've evolved in different ways. Snake has evolved in
a certain way that one thing is it has no ears, probably a whole lot of people don't know this –
a snake is stone-deaf, it has no sense of sound. So it has its whole body to the ground. Probably
a snake did not le... develop four legs mainly because it has no ears. This is how I've been...
In my childhood I went on thinking about it, “Why is it this one creature did not have
legs and still its locomotion is so good?” Because, you know, I've caught hundreds of snakes
right from the age of six, seven years of age. And I know how quick you have to be to catch a snake.
And he is doing this without legs, no legs, but look at his locomotion how it is. How efficient
it is on the terrain that he is. Only if you put him on a smooth floor, then he cannot do that,
but otherwise he is super-efficient with his locomotion. And this... this possibility of... it
is possible that he developed a very keen sense of feeling everything because he has no ears.
I have met some people who have been born deaf. And because of that they couldn't speak also,
but they have a very keen sense of everything, simply because they cannot hear anything, they
are super-alert. So snake became super alert like this, so alert it started perceiving things
in ways most people cannot perceive. This is why the imagery that always next to Adiyogi there
is a snake, not at his feet, right next to him, because he's as perceptive as the yogi.
So I must tell you this. These are times when, you know, always for some reason, I have some
understanding now of that but always I went for long meditations only in the afternoons. Everybody
would do it in the morning or evening or night, but for me afternoons were the best time.
Somewhere around 2:45, three o'clock if I sit, till 7:00 in the evening I will be sitting
somewhere in one jungle. If I simply sit there, after a few hours if I open my eyes, there would
be five – ten cobras right there in front of me, all waiting for me to open my eyes.
No other creature will come like this. They simply have a perception. The moment you
transcend your physical nature even a little bit, if you show that sign, they will be there.
So one thing that I found was – because I've been bitten by them early on, but later on I have
consumed the venom in so many different occasions, sometimes publicly, many times privately
– so when I took this, I clearly know it brings a separation between you and your body
just like that. It is dangerous to do that, nobody should try this, because it may separate
you for good (Laughter/Applause). It does; if you don't take care of
it, it... it will do that. But venom is not poison, there is a difference
between venom and poison. Today, modern medicine is trying... is... much research is happening
how snake's venom, scorpion venom, spider venom, all these things if properly used they could be
the future answer for all neurological ailments that human beings are going through; much research
is happening in this direction. Why this is so is, see, our neurological system, the complexity and
sophistication of our neurological system is what is giving us such a profound experience.
You're writing poetry only because of the complexity of your neurological system. If you
had the neurological system of an earthworm or a grasshopper, no poetry will come out – only
eating, reproduction, this is what will happen. This whole thing of experiencing life in a certain
way, with a certain sensitivity and be able to express this, all this is because we have the
most complex neurological system. And this venom, triggers the neurological system in a certain
way. Well, when it comes to death by snake bite, it works differently – some venoms work
on neurological system, some on, you know, pulmonary system, that's a different matter
– but still venom has a significant impact on one's perception if you know how to make use of
it. So in this context by possessing that venom, snake has become competent to perceive things in a
certain way, if you know how to handle them. See, this is one thing. If you have... Because
they are always going by your chemistry, you can go in the jungle and just pick
up a venomous snake just like that, not by holding by his head and all,
just like that. If you just take him, he will simply come. You show a little bit
of anxiety, he will immediately go for you. When I... you know, when I walked
around in the jungles all by myself, people used to always wonder how I
survive, where is the food. Largely, I survived on honey. All I did was I took my
motorcycle petrol tube, which was just fifteen to eighteen inches long, and huge hives will
be there in the Western Ghats, and they will always build in such a way on that kind of a
branch where a bear cannot come. An average sloth bear wears any... weighs anywhere between
seventy-five to eighty to eighty-five kilograms, so, it builds on that kind of a branch that if
a bear comes, it will shake and it will know. So I'm just about that weight, at that time, I am
around just over seventy kilograms, maybe a few kilograms less than a bear. So I crawl up slowly.
And I stick the petrol tube and drink. These are big black bees. If eight – ten of them bite
you in your face, the swelling that it causes, you will not be able to breathe and you will die.
If you open your mouth and if it bites inside your mouth, just one will do, it will kill you. But
they won't bite you. Many times, I'm drinking, you know, up to a liter of honey from these hives
sticking my pipe, they think I'm one of them (Few Laugh). This is... Don't think this is the bee-ing
(Referring to the terms “human mind” and “human being” in the earlier question) I'm talking about
(Laughter). Because sometimes honey is all over my lips and mouth, sometimes few of them come and sit
here (Gestures), but simply I keep drinking. But if you show little anxiety, they'll immediately go
for you. All these creatures which have venom have a special capability of perception. So snakes
became very significant for me in many ways. Whenever I have to do something significant,
they simply appear in my life, always. Prasoon Joshi: Thank you, Sadhguru. I will read
this poem and this is something which talking about the venom as you said. But I have used
the snake as – snake is surprised to see me, after biting me, snake is looking at me, and is
very surprised that I haven't died – so this is the poem about that. It's not only about me
or a person, it's about Indian civilization, it's about India, it's about us, it's about the
culture. So lot of metaphors you will see coming, but it's all about being used… or as
a civilization being used to vish, vish, (Referring to Hindi word –
poison) and how to absorb the venom. (Speaks in Hindi – not transcribed)
(Sadhguru laughs) (Applause). Sadhguru: I know it's a profound
thought, but can I tell you a small joke? Prasoon Joshi: Please (Laughter)... Sadhguru: You know I... early on when I started
first teaching, it was like a crescent for me, I would ride on my motorcycle and teach in three…
four cities – Hyderabad, Bangalore, Mysore, Mangalore, this was my route. This I'm talking,
what, nearly forty years ago (Laughs). So, when I was in Mangalore, Mangalore is probably
the only place or maybe one of the few places where there is a homeopathic, you know, medical
college, a medical college with master's degree and everything in homeopathy. So I met a doctor
who was over seventy years of age and he came to my program and we kind of... very nice man.
And we met a few times and we had conversations. After a few years, when I did not go back to
Mangalore for almost maybe five, six years, then I just went back and I thought I should meet
him and I went... walked into his clinic, he was still keeping a clinic, he was over seventy.
As I was walking in, I saw an advertisement that somebody had put up – some local medicine,
which is kind of an antidote for all kinds of snake venoms. I looked at this. Because I know
enough about snake venoms, I've been bitten by them. There are some which will affect your
cardiovascular system, some will affect your neurological system. They're definitely different
and they need different kinds of antidotes. So when I was in the course of conversation with
him, I said, "How did you allow this... somebody to put up this board in front of your clinic?"
Because somebody claims there's a common antidote for everything. So he's a very wise man. He
said, "See, the thing is ninety percent of the snakes in India are non-poisonous. So it works
ninety percent of the time" (Laughter/Applause). I was just wondering if it was that kind of
a snake that bit you (Laughs) (Applause). Prasoon Joshi: No, no (Laughs). Sadhguru,
we are definitely moving into, you know, I think we had already planned for an hour,
we kept on going. A couple of more questions around the times we are going through. Lot
of people are spending lot of time with their loved ones and themselves. So two people,
they're spending most time with these days, in the lockdowns – either with their loved
ones whom they felt they love and they are feeling the overdose of them (Applause). And
they are peeling off layers and layers, and they are telling each other, "All the layers have
been peeled off, now nothing is left out there, you'll have to rediscover me altogether."
And another one is that people who are trying… I mean spending time with one-selves
and very uncomfortable in fact, even that, that... and then we hear that there is... in
the West, of course, I'm hearing when I talk to my counterparts in... in US, in New York, I
all hear is the mental tension and mental health of the employees of the various organizations in
the lockdown. One th... One hand is relationship, another hand is time with oneself. This
is giving birth to lot of questions. Do you think is it... it is unnatural
for people to spend this much of time with a few people? And is there any
remedy or guideline you’ll suggest how to (Both Laugh) survive this
phase as far as relationships go? Sadhguru: You must request the Prime Minister to remove the lockdown before
(Gestures) (Laughter)... Prasoon Joshi: Yes, he is going to talk
at eight o’clock now (Sadhguru laughs). Sadhguru: So I was in conversation with a
few police officers. And one of the officers who works in the women and children's cell in
Tamil Nadu, who is... heads that department, said there is an enormous increase of
domestic violence because of the lockdown. So, people are bashing up their loved ones
(Laughs). That's what is happening. So we need to understand this that there is no need to deceive
ourselves with all these grand philosophies and beliefs that we have, "I love you, you love me."
Actually, it is not that there is no love at all between people, there is but fundamentally human
relationships are need-driven. There are needs. There are physical needs, psychological
needs, emotional needs, maybe economic and social needs. To fulfill these needs we form
variety of relationships, family is one of them. So we kind of exaggerate these things
into such an unrealistic space. Now when you're put together in one place it can become
terrible. Some people are enjoying this time, it's not everybody is experiencing it badly. So
many of them are coming to reality which is I think is a good thing, at least you know where
you stand. I always tell people... "Sadhguru, I've been disillusioned by this person." I said,
"Disillusion must hap... Disillusionment must happen at the earliest possible time, because I
don't believe that you must live in illusion for the rest of your life. You must be disillusioned
as quickly as possible and learn to live with reality the way it is. Why are you trying
to create a parallel reality of wonder and something else in your mind? The creation is too
much wonder; there is no need for you or me to invent anything. If you look at a leaf, if you
look at a grasshopper, if you look at anything, everything is too absolutely miraculous. There
is no need for you to create other kinds of miracles and other kinds of nonsense in your head.
Well, human beings have needs, we come together, we can conduct this gracefully in a sweet
manner. We call that love, affection, whatever, is perfectly fine. But when you exaggerate these
things because you watch the movies and come, and you think life is all about… you know,
family means you must be just blowing kisses to each other all the time – that will
happen because you're all the time going away. Prasoon Joshi: Yeah. Sadhguru: (Laughs) But if you stay there, you
need to understand family means management, family means cleaning the bloody house, family
means doing so many chores all the time. Somebody else was doing it, you never paid attention to
it, everything was okay. When it comes down and you understand the mechanics of what makes people
living together work. See, right now, suddenly we are appreciating the people who clean the
streets, people who do this work in the hospital, we must understand... we are even appreciating
the police that we are always complaining about, because we must understand society is
a larger family. If this has to work, those who clean the street, those who take care
of the hospital, the police, very vital – without all these people working and doing that work
that you think is a bad work or dirty work, without that work, you will have no society,
no family in any reasonable sense. So right now coming to that reality, the sooner you come to
that the better it is because with that everybody can behave more responsibly and sensibly
towards each other and to ours... ourselves. Above all, right now the struggle with
being with myself, people who are alone immensely struggling within themselves.
I've always been talking about this. See, if you are with me and you're suffering, maybe
it's me. But you're alone and you're suffering, obviously you're in bad company. You never
did anything to fix that company. Well, if your company is so bad to you, just
imagine what everybody else is going through (Both Laugh). People who work with you,
people who live with you (Laughs). Please this is one thing you must fix, you may not be able to
fix the whole world. At least this one person you must fix, that if you sit here it's a pleasant
experience. This is why Inner Engineering, constantly we are going on. Right now in this
time we are offering this in a big way to people, because if you do not make yourself in such a
way that you are a wonderful company to be with, for yourself, how will anybody else
enjoy your company, I'm asking? Prasoon Joshi: Now, Sadhguru, you have said it
number of times, in fact repeatedly, and I have always admired that, not even in people, you’ve
talked about education like that, it starts with fixing the person, and if you prepare good person
– to begin with, I mean “good” is a very loose term – and you will see the manifestations of it
everywhere. I… I… we get that message always from you. Because we're talking about relationship,
and we have talked about different kind of poetry, before we reach towards a few last questions,
I would recite this one. This is about breaking relationships, Sadhguru – what happens when a
relationship breaks and people who like that kind of poetry would probably like it (Laughter).
(Speaks in Hindi – not transcribed) And, Sadhguru, you had said you are going to recite lot of
poetry, so don't think that I'm imposing and getting the audience in for free (Both laugh).
(Speaks in Hindi – not transcribed) (Applause). This was a… just I found an opportunity,
I never recited this. All the work I was trying to recite today is all fresh,
new because in the presence of Sadhguru, I'll never get that, you know, the great sort
of blessing and his, you know, audience. So I thought I will... Sadhguru, do you like to recite
anything, anything more today or should we move... Sadhguru: I will... Yes, I would like to say
something about this. See, in the Hindi cinema, the town in which you live is still... this
cinema is still talking about, you know, man, woman coming together, breaking up – there was
no breaking up thirty years ago in Hindi cinema, there was no such thing as breaking up, they
were talking janam, janam, janam (Laughter). Now, it has evolved into a place where they come
together, they break up and miserable things happen, all this. But if you go to Hollywood,
they're talking about clash of worlds, different worlds, aliens coming and clashing. So (Laughs),
this is just expanding from one to another. What I'm saying is, this is why that question
that you asked about Uttarakhand and you know that evolution of how a human evolution was handled in
this life in a certain way – this is why, in this culture, we held one goal. Our goal in life is
mukti, liberation is the only goal. Everything else arranges itself around us according to our
needs. This is the most honest way to handle life. What this being always seeking for is to be above
everything to... It may not be conscious in most human beings, but always this longing is there, so
we made it a conscious cultural process that every human being has to aspire for their liberation. On
the way you may do business, you may get married, you may have children, you may form thousand
different relationships in the society, variety of activities you may do. But all this must
be constantly used only to make yourself free, not yourself... get yourself entangled. This
with... With this one fundamental direction, this much dard (Referring to Hindi word – pain)
need not happen, I'm saying (Laughter/Applause). Prasoon Joshi: But Sadhguru,
where does death figure in this? Sadhguru: Hmm? Prasoon Joshi: Where does dast… In the mukti, you have always said that death is a cosmic
joke. Where does death figure in that? Sadhguru: Death? Prasoon Joshi: Is it a termination
or is it a transformation? Sadhguru: Death for... for statistics... Prasoon Joshi: I am also talking about this death,
Sadhguru, because your book has just come out and we spoke about it earlier. And we also spoke
about it, whether death is a termination or transformation. And my... my problem, Sadhguru, is
that we've been for centuries telling people that death is just transformation, is just a journey,
but still people have so much of fear of death. We still see the whole human civilization
absolutely obsessed with death. If this is such a... If mukti is such a fundamental truth, why
does it need teaching? Why does it need coaching? Why does this truth doesn't dawn upon people
naturally? Why do we have to try so hard to accept this truth that ‘I am just transforming (Speaks
in Hindi – not transcribed)’? I am going into a... why... why do we have to repeat it so much, why is
it not felt easily if it is such a natural truth? Sadhguru: See, is it true that it is natural
for every human being wherever they are, they are striving to be something more than
what they are right now? This is mukti, but only problem is because of variety
of things that have happened to them, they're seeking an ultimate possibility in
installments. There is no human being who is not striving to be something more. Now when they get
little sick, they may say, "I don't want anything more." Tomorrow morning if they are well, again
they're ready, they want something more. This something more may be happening in terms of money,
wealth, power, pleasure, love, whatever – whatever their currency, whatever they know best in
that form they will seek – but essentially what they are seeking is they want expansion.
How much expansion if you look at it, they want limitless expansion. Well, that is mukti.
Is death a termination? If you're identified, if your entire experience of life is limited
to your physical framework of life, definitely it's a termination. But if your experience
of life has gone beyond your physical form, when I say gone beyond your physical
form, most people are not conscious on a day-to-day basis that they were born as
little children and slowly they accumulated this body over a period of time. So what we
accumulate cannot be us, it can only be ours. So, now our identification with our
physical form or the framework that we call as body has become so total, this is
the fundamental ignorance. Because of that, we go in installments, because physical form
can only expand in installments. The moment your experience of life goes beyond that,
then mukti is not after death. When... You must live in mukti – that's the most important
thing. You must live in absolute freedom and liberation. So, let me read a short poem
that I'd... These are all lockdown poems, all I'm reading today are lockdown poems
(Laughs), because they're giving me time. Prasoon Joshi: They will be good
to liberate (Sadhguru laughs). Sadhguru: This is called as ‘Human’.
Even when at home, I longed for home. Even when at home, I longed for home.
Searing pain of longing for home strangely got cured in being homeless.
Searing pain of longing for home strangely got cured in being homeless.
When the walls of home dissolved, a pristine home, unwalled and unfettered, devoid of love, affection,
or companions blossomed. A pristine home unwalled, unfettered,
devoid of love, affection or companions blossomed. Shall I call it... Shall I
call it my being (Applause)? So... See we're the only creature on this
planet who is being referred to right now as a being. We don't call a tiger a tiger-being
or an elephant an elephant-being or anything else. Only a human is a being, what this means is
you have the capacity to be the way you want. I said “capacity.” This doesn't mean everybody is
exploring that capacity. Now this struggle of, you know, whatever the relationship struggle,
this, that, everything, is just that you are surrendering your capacity to be. You are
making yourself into a bundle of thoughts, emotions, ideas, opinions and prejudices
that you formed in your life. Well, these are things that you acquired. But you are
a human being, that means you know how to be. If you know how to be, you are naturally
liberated, there's nothing else. Because it is… the entanglements are only in your
body and in your mind. The accumulation of body and accumulation of mind if you create
a little bit of space between that and you, this is the end of all entanglement,
this is the end of all suffering also. So, right now we believe that if there is
no suffering, there will be no profoundness, because all... you know, I'm not saying this
in any derogatory way, that is the way society experiences and cinema expresses, what... you
are born with pain, you are live with pain, you will die with pain, all the songs are there,
you know, tch. Dard se hi... something, something. Prasoon Joshi: Yes (Laughter). Sadhguru: So... Prasoon Joshi: Sadhguru, it's a... You
know, when we talk about creativity, and I feel that whatever needed
to be created has been created by the Almighty. The nature is biggest
creator, we just have a vantage point. Life, the same river, which I… which I experienced
at the river bank as a quiet, shaanth, someone who is struggling with the… with the waves experiences
that... the river as aggressive. The same river from different vantage points is experienced
very differently. I see creative work like that. Whatever is being created is already there. It's
just that we experience it in our own unique way. And I think whether it's a relationship of two
people, whether it's your relationship with God, your relationship with nature, I think we
have our own unique way of experiencing that, and that's what creates creative work. And
so I think there is nothing big or small because the... in that sense if I ask you
a question, is there any… is there anything called high-art, low-art, popular-art,
fine-art, do you distinguish between these two? We do distinguish between a high-art and
low-art. Do you think art has hierarchy at all? Sadhguru: No, not at all, but I would... if at
all if I have to, you know, make some kind of categorization of art, I would say, art coming
from deep levels of frustration and art coming from joy, you could separate like this. I
think this art coming from deep levels of suffering and frustration, became the style
of European art at a certain period of time, and the whole world is trying to imitate
that now, which is a very negative thing, because when such things are always on your walls,
slowly it will have an impact on you. If it cannot have any impact, it cannot be called art. It
is art, because it is capable of impacting you, not just visually, in many more ways.
So art that comes out of very deep suffering, because somewhere we have valued suffering
unfortunately, religions in the world have eulogized suffering – no, in this culture we've
always valued anand, blissfulness, ecstasy is the highest value. Suffering is not value because we
always saw suffering as self-created, joy as not self-created, as when you're connected with life,
you're naturally blissful; when you're unconnected with life and become a mental mess, then you
have suffering and frustration. So that art which comes from that deep level of frustration
and suffering, and that which comes from a joyful expression of life – I would like to categorize
art in these two ways, not as high and low. Prasoon Joshi: Okay, thank you
Sadhguru, I think that was very, very enlightening. It’s great to hear your
poetry as well and talk many a things, we have already spent couple of hours. Let’s hear
the _____(Unclear). (Overlapping conversation) Sadhguru: Let us see if they
have mutilated your poem enough. Prasoon Joshi: Yes, I would like to request
them if they have something, Sadhguru. Sadhguru: I'm sure they will have (Laughs). Prasoon Joshi: Thank you, Sadhguru. It was great. Sadhguru: Thank you very much. Sounds of Isha music – Hindi song Kuch Kehena… Sadhguru: (Applause) What, Prasoon… Prasoon,
they have done justice to your poem, eh? Prasoon Joshi: Yes, yes I think,
beautiful. Beautiful composition. Sadhguru: Wonderful (Applause). Prasoon Joshi: And I think this should be
performed by them and I would be happy because I think what the tune also has captured, the… the
longing for a solution in this and I think which has come out very well. But Sadhguru, it was a
privilege as always to have the conversation with you and look forward to the lockdown opening and
physically being able to sit with you and talk. Sadhguru: (Laughs) Yes. Prasoon Joshi: But technology has done a great
job and thank you to everyone in Isha there today, to be able to organize this and it was
wonderful and everybody who's there, god bless. Sadhguru: Thank you. Thank you Prasoon.
Blessings to you and family (Applause).
