[music] Raymond: Welcome to "Conversations the World Over." I'm Raymond Arroyo. This week the conversation turns to the subject of demonic possession. At no time in history has so much attention been focused on the phenomenon. It is a popular plot point in many films and TV shows and there's recently been a lot of controversy over satanic black masses at Harvard University in Oklahoma City. Even Pope Francis regularly speaks in his homilies about the devil and demonic influence. Several years ago, I had the opportunity to speak with the former chief exorcist for the Archdiocese of New York. He helped us separate fact from fiction regarding demonic possession and the Catholic ministry of exorcism. It remains one of our most popular segments, and oftentimes the fact is just as disturbing as the fiction. Here's my conversation with the late Fr. James LeBar. Tell us to begin, what is the difference, in your opinion, between demonic possession and oppression? Fr. LeBar: Well, possession is much more serious than oppression. In oppression, the devil bothers somebody from the outside, sometimes by poking them, sometimes by--where the word comes from, oppression, really pressing down on them, causing difficulty in actions and such. Possession is when the devil actually takes over the operation of the body of the person and the person doesn't even know what's going on. It's much more serious. Raymond: How common is this sort of diabolical manifestation? Fr. LeBar: Well, it's kind of hard to say exactly how common it is. Certainly in the time of Jesus, we have examples in the Gospels of where Jesus exorcised people, the devil from people. And down through the centuries, the Church has always been involved in helping people get rid of the devil. Rites of Exorcism were developed as early as the 1200s. There was one in 1583 and the current one, 1614 has just been replaced by a new one put out in 1999. Probably 5% of the cases that we look at need an exorcism and we look at maybe 30 or 40 cases a year in the Archdiocese of New York, but they come from many places, not just from New York. Raymond: Right. Father, who is most susceptible to demonic possession? Fr. LeBar: Well, again, it's kind of difficult to put a caption on. It depends on so much. Basically, a person who has a weak faith, a person who has given up on God would be most susceptible to the devil moving in. A person who is doing evil things--crime, debauchery, evil things--and once in a while a person will sell their soul to the devil or give their soul to the devil such in exchange for riches and such. And then,the devil has a good opportunity to move in. Raymond: Tell me about-- you've done a lot of work on cults. How much do, how much of an impact do cults and the occult have on this problem? Fr. LeBar: Well, for the past 25 years or so, there have been a lot of religious or pseudo-religious cults drawing people away from the true faith or from the other faiths in the world and giving them a rather strange and unusual view of the world, we could say. Some of these deteriorate into an opportunity for the devil to move in. There are also satanic cults. There is the Worldwide Church of Satan, there is the Temple of Set and of course, the Church of Satan. And these people have dedicated themselves to the worship of something. They don't want to say it's a real person, the devil, but we know that it is. So these people see the direct opposite of everything that Christians and other religious people see. That which is good for us seems to be bad for them. Those things which are bad for them, for us seem to be good to them. So they rejoice in pleasure; they rejoice in illicit sexual activities; they rejoice in, in harming people or harming... Raymond: Themselves as well. Fr. LeBar: ...themselves at times too, yes. So it's really hard to say just what exactly causes it, but basically it's a lack of faith. Raymond: Father, a couple of quick questions. We often hear today about Wicca, the practice of witchcraft and then we hear, "I'm a member of Wicca, but I only practice white magic," they say. Is there such a thing as "white magic" in your opinion? Fr. LeBar: Wicca are people that practice the pagan religion of worshiping the elements and such. They call that "White Magic", but it's neither white nor magic. Magic itself is basically black. It's evil and it has to do... The word "magic" itself means doing something outside of the regular way of doing things. But the witches, in order to --or the wiccans--in order to validate their own existence will call it "White Magic." "We only do good things." But they can't really pinpoint what's good. Raymond: And that's also a portal to the satanic and a portal to the devil. Fr. LeBar: Oh yes, very often the people who get involved in the Wicca will find themselves involved with the devil if they're not careful. Raymond: Let's talk about the marks of possession. In your experience--and I know you've performed several exorcisms--what are the marks of possession? What do you physically see? Fr. LeBar: Well, sometimes you don't see anything. But a person who is truly possessed generally has 3 or 4 characteristics. One, they possess great strength. Somebody I knew, who was possessed, could pick up a 200 lb. bag of cement with one hand and throw it. They have an ability to see things from a distance--we call it a clairvoyance. Now, I should say also that some of these things could be good or bad. Some of the saints have had clairvoyance. Some of the saints have been in the ability to be in more than one place at once. So some of these things we talk about as marks of a possessed person have an orientation towards the evil side. Raymond: Right. Fr. LeBar: But there's a corresponding holy side of these things, too. So the ability to have clairvoyance, to see what's going on at a distance, the devil can't make things happen but he might know what's going to happen tomorrow and let us know ahead of time, making it look like he's causing that thing to happen. Raymond: Right. How does someone know if they are possessed, Father? Are there, are there things that a family member can look for? Are there things that a person themselves can look for if they feel they are being oppressed, an unnatural way? Fr. LeBar: Well, generally speaking, a person who is possessed doesn't know that. The devil's taken them over completely and entirely. They don't know that. We have to depend on the family members and other people to let us know, first of all, that they're talking in strange languages they never studied, that they have possessed this great strength, and that they can foresee something happening someplace else. Those are the 3 basic things we look for. And of course also, on a lower level but perhaps a little more easy to understand and see, they might have a great aversion to things that are spiritual. They are having direct hesitation to stepping inside a Catholic church where the Blessed Sacrament is. And they have a direct aversion to anything that's blessed by Holy Water. Those are the 3 main things. If we see those things happening, we know we have a problem here. Raymond: Something's up. Father, how does one become an exorcist? I supposed that's a question you often get when you're traveling about. Fr. LeBar: Well, I do and it's easy. You get, you become an exorcist when the bishop appoints you to do that. Every bishop can be an exorcist in his own right but a priest has to have the specific and direct appointment of the bishop for each particular case that he does. Raymond: And how do you train for this? I mean, obviously, you're going to battle with satan. How do you prepare for that sort of heighten task? Fr. LeBar: Well, sometimes it looks like it's an awesome task and a very formidable one. But really, all it is is proclaiming the Good News of Jesus Christ. And to do that you have to have a deep and abiding faith in Jesus as the True-- as Savior and True God and True Man. You have to have a belief in the power of God and the mercy of God. Raymond: But there is a training period though. There is a course of training, if you will, a mentorship. Fr. LeBar: Well, naturally anybody who takes a special position in the Church--be it exorcist or a Master of Ceremonies, has to learn what's going on and has to know just what to be. So what happens, basically, is from one--that the experience and the ways are handed over from one exorcist to the other. In the case of the Archdiocese of New York where we had nobody for a long time, because I was involved with the cults and the occult, in the matters-- in earlier years, of looking into these matters, I was asked to give a training course which consisted of looking at the ritual, examining it, seeing what it does and why we do it, seeing some cases that happen, and then looking and seeing what do we need to look for when a person comes to say they need help. Raymond: Walk us through the rite if you will. What is the first thing you do? I suppose it is diagnosis; is this person possessed? Fr. LeBar: Right. When someone comes to us seeking an exorcism, we first of all have to find out if they need it. Generally speaking, if a person says they want an exorcism, they don't need it. The devil, when he possesses a person--which is the primary need for exorcism-- the person doesn't know anyone what's going on. But oftentimes, the family can come and they can tell us what's happening. Sometimes the devil possesses somebody temporarily. So I learned a long time ago that I made a big mistake when I said, "If they can tell us they want an exorcism, they absolutely don't need it." But that's not correct totally, because they may be partially possessed and know that something happened back then, last week, last month and something's wrong. So they're looking for an answer. But if they come specifically and say, 'exorcism,' then generally they don't need it. But if the person has an aversion to anything that's good--the person has an inability to walk into the Presence of the Blessed Sacrament; the person absolutely revolts against the sprinkling of Holy Water upon them and if you bring a rosary and try to give it to them, they're liable to throw it across the room. So anything that's holy, anything that's sacred is no good for them. And the more they have that, the closer they come to being, needing the exorcism. Raymond: Tell me about these introductory prayers. There are introductory prayers as a part of the rite. What do those do? Fr. LeBar: The Rite of Exorcism basically--and let me just add this. You didn't ask it yet, but... Raymond: Oh, go ahead. Take it. Take over my job. [laughs] Fr. LeBar: Yes. It dates from the 14th century. Raymond: Right. Fr. LeBar: And the formal Rite of Exorcism was about the year 1583. They revised it again, and the last revision took place really in 1614. Raymond: And then last year it was revised again--the Pope just revised it. Fr. LeBar: Right. Raymond: What were the changes there? Fr. LeBar: And there was one more revision when the local languages were able to be used, and now in 1999, the long sought after revision or redevelopment of the ritual took place and was published this year. This ritual takes away a lot of the word-pictures that were there before. Remember back in 1614, we didn't have pictures, television, radio or anything like that. So we had to give an image of what the devil is. So there were a lot of flowery words--"seducer of evil," "trodder of the trampled upon--the downtrodden," things like this. Anything to describe the horrible nature of the devil. These were used repeatedly in the prayers of exorcism so that the person themselves was helped to see this horrible creature that was there. The newer ritual doesn't have that because now we have television, we have pictures and all that and we have a lot of other ways to find out what the devil looks like. But the basic element of the Rite of Exorcism is to expel the demon in the Name of Jesus Christ and by command. The new ritual also gives a lesser form by declaring the devil to leave. One is called Imperative, "Go." The other one is Declarative, "May the Lord take the devil away." Raymond: What's the imploring formula? There's something called the imploring formula. Fr. LeBar: That's the imperative. Raymond: That's the imperative. Okay. Fr. LeBar: "In the name of Jesus, go," commanding. Imperative meaning more commanding than pleading and the other one is, the lesser form used oftentimes in deliverance ministries. "May the Lord deliver us from all evil," things of that sort. Raymond: Right, right. Fr. LeBar: But it also now is part of the Ritual of Exorcism. Raymond: And pleas to Our Lady--now, the Virgin Mary has been incorporated to the.... Fr. LeBar: That was the other part that was in there. Thank you for reminding me. You see, I can't remember everything. Raymond: [laughs] You do it. I'm just trying to... [laughs] Fr. LeBar: But in the ritual for the first time were prayers of intercession to Our Lady because as the Mother of Jesus, She has a very special place to play and the devil resents Her Presence very much. Raymond: How long does this normally take, Father, when you go in to exorcise someone? How long does each session take? Fr. LeBar: The ritual itself takes about a half hour at the most. It includes the "Litany of the Saints," it includes other prayers of intercession. You can stop whenever you have to repeat something because the devil is being ornery or something. One of the things we have to do at the beginning is find out the name of the devil and... Raymond: Why do you do that? Fr. LeBar: We do that because, I mean, the ancient Hebrew practice--and maybe ancient Eastern practice, too, for that matter--that if you know the name of someone, you'll have control over them . So if we're sitting here and I want to ask the camera person to do something, if I say, "You there, do this," he's not going to pay any attention. But if I say, "Mary," or "Jane," or "Jack, would you do this," they perk up and they do this. Or they may say, "I can't do it." But when you have the name of the person, you have a certain amount of control. And in the ancient mind of the Semitics, I guess or maybe all of ancient civilization, if you have and if you know the name of the person, you have a certain amount of control over that. Raymond: Why the questioning, Father? There, there is almost an incessant questioning of the devil in the possessed. Why do you do that? It's almost a toying with him. Fr. LeBar: Well, it might seem that way, but actually what it is, we're trying to find out who the devil is. We have to find out the name and why he's there. And once we have those 2 pieces of information, then we have the spirit, the spiritual things we need to push the devil out. Raymond: Do you also find out why, how he entered, why he entered? Fr. LeBar: Not necessarily. Sometimes that comes out and whatnot. The devil will protest and tell us why he's bothering a certain person. But for the most part, the devil tries to hide things. He's a master of lies. So you have, also have to filter out what's going on. Many times, for example, the first thing I'm greeted with in the exorcism--as the other exorcists are, too-- [deep growl] "What are you doing here? I hate you." I say, "Thank you very much. I know I'm in the right place," [laughs] when that happens. Raymond: [laughs] You have confirmation that you're meeting your old foe. Fr. LeBar: Right. But seriously, it is a confirmation as such and it is an indication that it's not just a playful spirit there. It's one of the demons themselves that are there. And we ask for the hour and the date of their departure so that they know they're going to have to leave. Raymond: This has to be an exhausting process for you. Is it? Fr. LeBar: Actually no. Raymond: Really? I suppose... Fr. LeBar: I'm tired after it but I don't find it exhausting, meaning, "Oh, I wish I never did that." Or, "Oh, I'm not going to do this anymore." But I find in it a spiritual experience of working with Jesus in the elimination of an evil spirit. I know some exorcists will say they lose something every time they do an exorcism. But I don't feel that way. I gain something. I gain the greatest strength of Jesus within me. For this reason, perhaps, I get the more hateful remarks from the devil all the time but at any rate. It's Jesus who does it. Not me. Raymond: Father, your personal experience--you have battled satan. What was the most surprising case in your, in your more than 20 years now as an, as an exorcist? Fr. LeBar: Well, no, no, no. Only 5 years. Raymond: 5 years. Oh, okay. Fr. LeBar: I've been working on diabolical problems and cult problems since 1973. But I've only been an exorcist since 1995. Raymond: Oh, very good. Okay. What was the most surprising case during that time for you? Fr. LeBar: Well, I think the case where I met Beelzebub, and it was in the person who was troubled for many years and, by the grace of God, I was the one to discover Beelzebub there. He's still there. We haven't got rid of him yet. But we're working on it. Raymond: Are some demons more powerful than others? Fr. LeBar: They're more persistent, they're more powerful in the sense that satan himself, if he were to come, Lucifer is also satan. But Beelzebub, the prince of demons, is a very, I found out a very difficult one to dislodge. He is particularly unhappy when he sees me, and I don't say that out of, "look how important I am," but the power of the priesthood. That's what I see. It's that which he sees and doesn't like. Raymond: Has, have these experiences made Hell and satan more real for you? A lot of people think of satan and hell as theoretical concepts. Some say it doesn't exist. Fr. LeBar: That's very true and I run up against that every now and then, too. But in my own way of thinking, Hell has become very much more real. Of course, having encounters with the devil--both in word and in action sometimes --has certainly showed me that he's very much around these days and very much into trying to bring people down. It's--I guess you might say it gets very discouraging at times when you see how many people fall for the wiles and wickedness of the devil. So, again, I feel as God has blessed me in being able to fight this particular battle. Raymond: You're never afraid when you go in? I mean, my goodness, if I saw someone there with this deep voice, superhuman strength, some describe a stench in the room. That's got to be eerie and frightening, on a human level. Fr. LeBar: Well, it's eerie, certainly. But again, I am a priest and it is the priest in me that is fighting the devil, not little ol' me. Therefore, with the mandate from the archbishop, with the tools that the Church has given us, I have faith that these things do work. Raymond: Father, we have an e-mail.... What would you say to that? Fr. LeBar: Well, good question. What's the answer? Well, twofold. One, the devil wants to get as many souls as possible. So to up his number, he'll work on the people with weak faith, but he also works on people with strong faith in the hopes that he can change them, in the hopes that he can get them to despair or to turn over to the side of evil. So he works on both. But oftentimes he doesn't bother the people with weak faith too much because that's no fun. Raymond: Is there protection for people--for the faithful Catholic, for the faithful Christian watching --is there something they can do to protect themselves from demonic attack? Fr. LeBar: Well, of course and the very first thing we have is our Catholic faith. We have the Blessed Sacrament, reception of Communion and if we're leading a good Catholic life--good Christian life, because I don't want to exclude non-Catholics either--we are filled with the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit is within our heart and soul, there's no place for the devil. Raymond: This is John from Connecticut. You're on "The World Over Live." What's your question, John? John: first of all, I'd like to say, I appreciate Fr. LeBar's work and God bless him for it. Fr. LeBar: Thank you very much. John: And I was wondering if he sees anything during the exorcism rite? In the Bible, the devil is described with horns, a hoof, cloven, horns, a hoof, cloven hoof and a tail. Excuse me, I'm nervous. [laughs] Raymond: It's okay. John: The devil obviously is not a physical male but a spiritual male. Raymond: Father, you... John: The Bible says how he is made lowlier than the beasts. Raymond: Right. Father, I suspect what John is after there is, are there physical manifestations of the devil? Have you seen any indications of how he appears? Or how have you, how has he appeared to you've perhaps? Fr. LeBar: Well, much of our concept of the devil is formed by art and such detail--the tail, the horns and such. And oftentimes, people who are possessed have reported seeing the devil manifest himself with the face of a goat, with the body of an animal and the face of a goat or they'll mention the horns, they'll mention the, the tail and such. But for what it's worth, I have never seen anything like that. I've heard a lot of things but the devil, Thank the Lord, has never appeared to me and I hope he doesn't. Raymond: Father, do you think, in many ways, these depictions and our popular idea of what the devil looks like are deceptions because they allow us to then disbelieve the normal way the devil operates in our everyday lives through the temptations and other ways? Fr. LeBar: Well, certainly some of the more unusual movies and such have given us a picture which is not exactly true. "The Exorcist" movie, "The Lost Souls" movie are good representations. There's also another one called "Possessed," which is on Showtime now. But you get something like "The Omen," or "Stigmata," or some of these movies, they mix up things so that there is a false picture. Even though there are elements of correctness there, there's a little bit of false element there. One of the things--and I can't pinpoint on any one of those--but the false, one of the false things would be that of despair. There is always hope. It is true that if a person is possessed, they are tending very much to despair and not being able to be helped or anyway. But God can always help and I think that's one of the mistakes some of the media presentations make. On the other hand, you can have a little thing like "The Devil and Daniel Webster" where he sells his soul to the devil and eventually the devil loses. So that's fine. So there are many things to look at. But the main thing is, the devil is out to gain somebody's soul, put them, to bring to Hell so he can claim another soul away from God. Raymond: Here's an e-mail, Father... Fr. LeBar: Well, as far as I can determine, the physical illnesses and such do not indicate the presence of the devil. What can happen, however, though, the devil can make the illnesses in a person as a means by which he is taunting them, just trying to bring them down and such. To give you one case--do I have time to tell you one little case? Raymond: Sure, Father. Fr. LeBar: One situation that I never saw the persons but I dealt with the persons on the phone. There was a case of severe AIDS, HIV positive. The person was in the hospital dying and the mother was able to find out that the person had made the pact with the devil. We got her to renew the baptismal, the person to renew the baptismal promises --to renounce satan, his evil works and all that. And to make a long story short, we finished 364 days, 23 hours and 53 minutes before the pact was up, just before midnight. Raymond: Oh my goodness. Fr. LeBar: At midnight--I wasn't there but the mother called me, told me that, excuse the expression, "All hell broke loose," and all the machines in the ICU and everything went coo-coo and they pulled the plugs out, they were still making noise and all this sort of stuff. And so everybody came running and reset everything. But the person who was concerned here, those they couldn't stop, even though they pulled the plugs out. Finally, everything calmed down. The next morning, the doctor came and said to the mother, "You can take your daughter home now. She's okay." The AIDS was gone. The HIV was gone. She was okay and she went home. Raymond: Fr. LeBar, for me, what this really does, though, is highlight the reality, the supernatural reality that perhaps many would like to deny, or in fact, do deny. Fr. LeBar: Well, that I can testify to 100%. When there is a provocation or when there is a manifestation, it's real. Raymond: Father, another e-mail here... How does that occur, Father? Fr. LeBar: There's the other side of things. The devil goes after people he can gain for his own kingdom, you might say, but then he's also going to annoy, to a very serious degree at times, those people that are doing good in the world. Priests, sisters, brothers, parents, social workers, anybody at all, if they are doing good to keep evil out of things, the devil's going to be on their case. And somebody like Padre Pio or the Cure of Ars, for example--St. John Vianney-- he was greatly bothered by the devil. He'd be in his bed. His bed would shake at night. He'd hear pebbles on the window and there'd be nobody there throwing them, and one time he was even in the bed and the bed started to spin around and around in, in the room, the guest house that he was in and the other 2 priests came up to see what was going on. They said, "Father, if you wanted the bed moved to the middle, why didn't you come and ask us?" [Raymond chuckles] And he said, "I didn't do it. Old Grampin did." And that was a sign for him that a great sinner would be coming. The... Raymond: Isn't that something? Fr. LeBar: The devil works in many, many ways and the cure for it all is faith and hope and love. As we know from the Gospel, love conquers all. Raymond: Let me know what you thought of tonight's show and which of our interviews you'd like to see on an upcoming edition of "Conversations the World Over." You can always write me at raymond@raymondarroyo.com. The new show premiers each Wednesday at 5:30 p.m. Eastern time in the U.S. and for those of you outside the United States, go to ewtn.com for your airtimes. Next week, editor at large at "National Review" and author of "The President, the Pope and the Prime Minister," John O'Sullivan. On behalf of the staff and crew of EWTN News, I'm Raymond Arroyo. The Conversations continue. Don't miss them. See ya next timee. Bye now. [music]
