Christopher Hitchens on Nelson Mandela (1985)

for the nation South Africa is back in the front pages again this week you've just returned from a trip to Africa as we sit right now on the close of 1985 are you optimistic or pessimistic about the situation in South Africa huh well I've been following it for a long time and as a British person we were all kind of brought up on South Africa because one of my earliest memories of it being expelled from the British Commonwealth for its racial policy and I've been saying sort of repetitively for years that if the government doesn't change it will be changed by force there will be a revolution and I suppose I've been saying that as someone who thinks that would be a just thing to happen and I think that there the revolution isn't round the corner it has now begun so to that extent I guess I'd have to say I was an optimist but in another way it makes me sad because it needn't have come to this it needn't have got this bad and it's going to get worse and a lot of people good people are going to die and that's needless so I doesn't make me a pessimist but it qualifies my optimism good morning thank you for joining us this morning our topic South Africa our guest Christopher Hitchens sees Washington correspondent for the nation let's start off telling people about your magazine before we talk about South Africa that's great well the nation is the oldest weekly magazine in the u.s. founded in 1865 by a group of abolitionists and liberals and we've held true to that tradition ever since we wouldn't mind being called the left end of the mainstream spectrum we come out every week we have published at 72 Fifth Avenue New York City and which subscriptions can be obtained thank you very much and I write a column for it from Washington but I summarized take that column elsewhere and I just took it to Southern Africa it how many subscribers here and also it's got a UK price on it too how many subscribers in Great Britain good question I think we have about 70 thousand subscribers all told I don't think very many of them are in are in Great Britain very few of my friends there do you read it I'd love to say we think the number of readers per copy is very high a lot of libraries and institutions of higher learning take us I don't know what our true leadership is I should have I should have checked it out probably about a quarter of a million on on 70,000 it would be which is far too few given the generally conservative turn of the American press and mass media these days about your column first of all the reason for your trip wanted to keep myself up to date I have been in South Africa I've been in Namibia and Angola I've been in some Bob way Zimbabwe was a great passion of mine for a long time I wanted to go this time to Zambia to Lusaka to see the African National Congress I succeeded in seeing them and in seeing Bishop tutu when he met with the African National Congress actually in Zimbabwe I went to her r8 as well it was the first time I think that they've officially met I mean he has contacted them before but they're a band organization in his country and it was quite a delicate matter for him to meet in public at a World Council churches meeting with the leadership of the organization that says it will take power if necessary by force your intention was to get into South Africa itself well they've just put a freeze on all press Jesus now I mean they they've got a lot to hide and they hide it rather clumsily by means of censorship banning orders restrictions and so on even now in South Africa itself you need a permit to go to Soweto or to go to any of the black townships unless you're a black person in which case are not allowed to leave the township and if your black reporter they can't tell you you can't go where you're forced to live those kind of anomalies aside I mean what one has in South Africa is a pretty fully fledged totalitarian stage you didn't even attempt to get in or you knew right off about you mean doesn't going to look better in that okay the thing that's interesting about this column and we hear a lot of references to African National Congress without many explanations about what it is perhaps you could tell our viewers well the ANC as everyone calls it there's a slogan in South Africa that says you a and see nothing yet was started in 1912 as a very modest lobby for what were then called native rights and it was something like what the n-double-a-cp used to be here fairly polite well-mannered middle-class fairly Christian at any rate religious was eliminated nominations in South Africa and it kept on in that vein for several decades legal was their legal organization wasn't banned until the 1950s but as the white minority moved to consolidate power absolutely by law to say that South Africa would be totally segregated and that no black person would ever be allowed to frame the decision on how he or she would live the Congress had to become more militant and in fact in 1961 it took the decision to set up an armed wing called and contour with this way which means the spear of the nation but it already been banned by then so it's really a growth classic case of the evolution of a modest lobbying pressure group into a revolutionary organization by force of circumstance like to read a paragraph from this and because it's something I don't think I was aware up to the references to apartheid before says the political strength of the ANC lies in its advocacy of a non-racial as opposed to multiracial society apartheid as people tend to forget does not merely separate black from white and minutely denominates blacks by tribe and language at demarcates indians from cape coloured it separates chinese and muslim and even designates japanese for commercial purposes as honorary White's your comments yeah it's worth remembering that because apartheid people think of as literally a black and white question which in many ways it is but the the system operates really on the basis of divide and rule for example in Soweto most the policemen tend to be recruited from Zulu rural areas so as to use black on black but it's a different language that they speak for example a different background it's a rather tragic thing to see you stole my favorite point already or rather didn't steal it but you mentioned it that they'll show the real absurdity of racialism that the Japanese are counted as honorary Aryans honorary White's because they have a good commercial relationship with South Africa it's also important to remember that the the ruling national party in South Africa is the only ruling party in the world that took the other side in the Second World War I mean most of its leaders were quite openly and explicitly on the side of Hitler and because of his racial theory it used to be officially anti-semitic as a party now because of its relationship with Israel that slightly been watered down but not by no means entirely it's very strong streak of anti-jewish prejudice in the in the Afrikaner leadership also so that some for the ANC the task is very difficult because it has to as well as oppose white fascist ideology it has to prevent tribalism and other kinds of racial feeling breaking out among the different groups of the oppressed and in my view its greatest achievement is to have done that on its executive in exile in Lusaka there are Indians there are colored people there quite a number of whites in the leadership also by coloured we mean those of mixed-race we just for this purpose we borrow the official definition and there are different kinds of African all different languages and tribes are represented and they say that in in the South Africa of the future your race should not count it shouldn't be a social category at all in the site in deciding your citizenship we have a caller on the line so I don't know if you can answer this question quickly but given that view of the South Africa as the ANC would like it what happens to the political side well the political side is I think inevitably socialist in that the the belief that there is no meaningful definition of racial definition of a person's right and necessitates really belief in the Equality Brotherhood if you like a man and if you say that that socialist they say yes it is some of them would say they were communists also so you're many people say that will automatically invite the influence of Soviet Union into well I wouldn't be a bit surprised if that's what this questioner has in mind okay I certainly webbed up the question let's sad go to the phones we have about 45 minutes to take your calls for Christopher Hitchens telephone numbers are on the squared screen as a question or a comment comes to mind throughout this hour let's take our first call from Lakewood New Jersey one of you subscribers ooh hello hi Merry Christmas thank you what I wanted to say is I just can't understand this government a lot now just going along with this what really upsets me is the right-wing that keeps saying that the zulus do not go along or you know go along with the ending of apartheid that they want to try to I'm a little bit nervous yeah don't worry what everyone is I'm excellently they want to run in other words they go along with the government help the government and overcome this but they don't realize that the Jews are the policemen and that's why you know it's not it's kind of reminds me of Clarence Pendleton you know I have never seen such a replica in all my life really I can't even watch him so you upset me but I just hope that the Congress gets the governor you know gets here mr. Reagan often fluffier and there's a little bit more to try to because they really are embarrassed when they feel as though this country is not backing them okay well well let's not malign the zulus I mean it's a bit harsh I think to compare anyone to Clarence Pendleton especially at the season of goodwill the zoo is are of course opposed to apartheid there's no question about that one of the founders of the African National Congress was Chief Albert literally who was a Zulu leader and was I think I'm right in saying the first black man ever to win the Nobel Prize in 1955 there are many Zulus who support the ANC there is an organization led by chief gotcha butcher lazy excuse me I'll say that again she's got shirt bottlers it's called Encarta it's a Zulu organization and an political party and it's tribally based and tribally organized it is of course not in favor of white minority rule but it is hostile to the ANC and it's non racial policy and as a result it is an organization with which the South African government can do business in pursuit of a divide and rule policy but you shouldn't mistake Zulus for Uncle Tom's and I think it would be it would be an actor as well as unfair say that go out to California for next call where's your town Santee California for about 17 miles northeast of San Diego okay you question a comment well I suppose I'd like to ask you a question Susan we should program but I would like to make comments so regarding your gift first of all he kind of alludes to the fact that he would like to be referred to as as left let me just say this man is not just left he is a pro communist mindset the South Africa you know the Communists are writing an issue taking a worthwhile issue you know anti-apartheid it's certainly worth well thing to be involved in but these people are doing just what you know the ANC is there's no doubt that their communist infiltrated they fly the communist flag talks we've seen that with Bishop tutu standing there with the flag flying behind them the race cliff cliff fists clenched fist and also the the apartheid movement you know is wrong and these these people are writing it but they're going to do just what they did in Ethiopia they're you know was just announced today that they're moving populations lead to Ethiopia not not because of job but because to relocate that for or control politically now the the thing I'd like to say is some months ago I watched your program with Jerry Falwell when he came back to South Africa and the course of watching that program after his remarks a mr. Lowry in very except Minister with fancy you know really far out dressed appeared and he he did the big lie and he said that after after Ebola thought he said I'm not a pro Jerry Falwell person I was curious and I watched it he said that the Jerry Falwell didn't even visit with the people that he flew around in helicopters that he spoke from the other hand how could he ever really communicate and find out what's happening in South Africa is black is being said against black there are people who are in leadership positions that are positive and pro America that are you know this man would like to call Uncle Tom but they are not they are people who are set and are working toward a democratic solution but these others these radicals won't let them they're doing they're killing them just like they did in if the communist method they did it in South Vietnam they've done it all over the world how about that question for a second I'm asking you is how come you didn't expose Lowry about the big lie how come the press has sat and gobbled him up and applauded they sneered their questions toward Falwell were pointed slanted and their questions to Lowry were just applauded whose question from you as the press that c-span didn't catch that didn't investigate it didn't reveal it didn't bring out the big lie and why they were playing this down is why Paul well basically it's been sized and okay why did she folks do that alright and thank you for the comments sue c-span is a public affairs network doesn't do any investigative reporting so that's the short answer but I'd like to get your comments to them any observations yeah I don't I don't mind a point it all started questions either and I don't feel that they're illegitimate and I don't mind even the one you asked me which I'll come to right away the South African Communist Party is now and was for a very long time has been for a long time the only political party in South Africa that doesn't discriminate on grounds of race in its membership this has earned it a position of respect and admiration among a lot of black people as you'd expect I think it's to the credit of the Communist Party I'm afraid I can't think of any other way of putting it that that's always been their view it's the only thing that is to their credit in every other respect politically speaking they're an unusually conformist Moscow line group but some of their people in particular some of their lawyers have acted in my opinion heroically in the past now what makes me so confident about what I say about the ANC and what makes me so sure that Jerry Falwell is yet again either being sold a bill of goods or selling one or both is this there is no survey of African opinion in South Africa that does not consistently reveal whatever the question is and however it's put that the popular leader is Nelson Mandela and Nelson Mandela is the honorary president of the African National Congress if I'm wrong about that I can be demonstrated very easily the following method and Nelson Mandela can be freed from prison and invited to contest a democratic election I would abide by that verdict and so would he it's a very simple challenge to make I made it on the television the other day with mr. William Keyes the black PR man who the South African government is hired in this town for I think it's 350 grand which I don't think he's worth his response was to me was to say that that would be like calling for the release of Charles Manson if you'll buy that you'll buy Jerry Falwell I will simply repeat that I will abide by the result of a democratic election I think Nelson Mandela would win it but if you want to prove me wrong you have to address your question to South African government Sheboygan Wisconsin good morning hi I have about four questions I'd like to ask your guest speaker on South Africa okay begin happy holidays thank you the same to you sir look I don't know if he will be able to answer them but here goes anyway it seems that tribalism has always been a fierce force in all of Africa shows a little sign of ever stopping what makes you think that this fierce tribalism would stop in South Africa if the blacks were to get any kind of power second point all the boycotts have been lifted against Russia and for anyone to tell me that South Africa is the worst political poor force in the world and leave out the genocide that goes on in Cambodia the hostilities that Russia is putting against Afghanistan is very naive it seems that we have selective indignation against the South Africans okay next point it seems that little is said it seems that the news media is saying that the South African Armed Forces is insignificant they have yet begun to flex their muscles from what I understand they have a large standing army very powerful Air Force and an effective Navy what would be the role of this force if the whites felt that their backs were against the wall okay the last point is there are still in the news media very little coverage about atrocities and the rest of black Africa very little coverage is given how blacks leave other parts of Africa and go into South Africa don't get me wrong the conditions aren't that great but they appear to be better than in their own land in some of the border areas between South Africa and the rest of black Africa there's barbed wire people are shot their bodies are left to rot these are by black governments that let this be I hope you'll be able to answer my questions I've called it some other time and given this kind of questions and they seem to be always looked over okay thank you very much take care bye-bye well let me try not to disappoint you on your first question on tribalism yes it's the curse of Africa and every African nationalist knows it and it's the reason for the existence of the OAU which is in itself the organization of African Unity one of the most dissapointing organizations in the modern world is that at least they recognize that that is the problem it's a it's a double problem because the borders of Africa that that denominator nations and differentiate States we're not drawn by Africans they were drawn by colonial powers a very large number than were drawn by my fellow countrymen the British and don't follow or conform to tribal or other differences at all they're drawn for the convenience of outsiders and Africa is still saddled with that what I was saying about the ANC is that it realizes that this is this is the main problem and says that to join the organization you give up your claim as a tribal or otherwise racially defined person you have to try and decolonize as it were your mind and all I can all I can say for them is that they have made that leap of recognition and they are the only organization in the country that does give the promise overcoming tribal feeling but it would be a fool or an optimist or utopian who didn't recognize the the depth of it I mean for example in Zimbabwe where all Africans were agreed that white colonial rule should cease that was about all they did agree about and there is still a very deep going a political quarrel between the matter Billy and the Mashona in the country as we speak whatever the answer to that is though it is not white colonial rule I think we have to move beyond that stage I hope you don't think I've dodged your question then on tribalism on the double standard and the boycott thing yes and no I didn't say anything about Cambodia or Afghanistan because I was asked about South Africa but I would have done if I had been asked the difference I think the inescapable difference is this the Soviet economy is not dependent on Western capitalist corporations the South African economy to a very large extent is that's to say we are in the West responsible for South Africa in not just in the moral sense but in the practical sense money is made by American and British corporations principally but also by French ones and West German ones from that economy its labor practices and its system of double oppression that's to say people oppressed both as workers and as people of a different color is in our camp thus the call for sanctions and boycotts is not just a matter of a gesture it's a matter of accepting and recognizing a responsibility that I think distinguishes it from say the Polish economy though though if you were to say to me that the Polish economy is largely written by Western banks you'd be right and I'd be in favor of taking the point in the same way I'm not for a double standard on the Army and the sorry minor point we've got a color that's been waiting a bit and rather than write up his long-distance choices why don't we take that call we'll go back to the last two I just I'm anxious because the questioner said he had his questions sloughed off before I'm keen to take them on the chin okay we will get back to them okay sure Portsmouth Virginia go ahead please good morning good morning morning well Christopher I like to encourage I think that you one of the most fun is bend a tie it up observe a few years I like that make two comments and I'd like to make an invitation to you first of all president of glory Enterprise and Educational Foundation 13:17 East Brampton Avenue North Junius 2/3 504 and I know you're smiling but the reason I'd give you that Christopher is because I'm hoping that you would have the opportunity to come to Virginia I think that the citizens of Virginia need people like you to address them doesn't there like understanding of world of global problem what you speak as we have to go beyond white bungle ISM is I would say that we'll be on back premising I think one of the things that we need to consider is that there is a Lou babies are being affected by the oppression around the country and I heard little mention about back to these innocent little children caught up between the struggle my comet here first insect mister is do you view the world prices as outrageous gross human rights violations is my first question and my second question Christopher is would you say that these men yield to God our world leaders do they even conceive in it at all that little children of in deprived freedom okay thank you for the call it's not obviously just at Christmastime that one thinks of what a reproach it is that any child should have to suffer for the stupidities and crimes of of people you know better are people like ourselves but I suppose that makes it a more appropriate time for some people anyway even people at myself want aren't lucky enough to have a belief in God sustain them aren't immune from the the Christmas sentiment that's I suppose why South Africa moves people so much because though we know that the human race has all kinds of inherent difficulties and possibilities that it will it's by nature unhappy there are some things we can see that are done that are just unnecessary that we know we can kill and that are that are needless and one of these is is racial prejudice any any thinking person can see through it and outgrow it and to see it in practice is is an outrage and to feel that one's own government or one's own system is in any way condoning or supporting it is a terrible reproach also so I hope that's I hope that's a sort of answer to you will take a call from sant antoni and then we'll get back to those two questions glass our producer to hold off with calls for just a second so we can get those two responses san antonio good morning morning i think you make a good point on the multilateral nature of the problem in south africa and i'm glad to hear that the african national congress also recognizes it i think it's easier to unite against something like the whites then i think you would see the divisions among the african national congress be much more pronounced if they came into power and but the government and media in the united states seem to make this a black versus white question and ignoring in other countries oftentimes black on black and intertribal between black problem i think the fear of some of us there are a little more to the right of yourself is that will exchange in south africa a racial elite for a communist elite i have two questions for you though you seem to think that of the revolution is underway do you think the president government and the moderates that are in that government are finished and the second question you see the anc if they were successful in the coming in power at being pro west or pro-soviet thank you okay this is part of the answer to the question of a for last as well i don't believe the story about the the moderates in the both the government I just don't know who they are they've never successfully been identified and certainly there's no action by which we could recognize them as moderate as I say the the ideology of the National Party the ruling party is not just a racial one it's it's a fascistic one it's it's one that grew out of admiration for the Third Reich and the losing side in the last war and that's an important I think thing to bear in mind if they were ever going to be moderate they've had ample chances to prove it I mean even at the time of the Sharpeville massacre when there was such an outcry in 1961 around the time the ANC was banned the government was saying are but you wait there's a reform program on the you know what what is all this international outcry about we're changing for the better quite to the contrary it changed for the worse and continue to do so I think that down the road and here's part of the answer to the South African army question I was asked earlier there's the real chance for military coup in the country certainly at the moment the army under general Magnus Milan effectively has a great share of state power and for instance by the use of it keeps Namibia Southwest Africa an independent country under complete occupation and subjection I also think and it's a it's a terrible prospect but I think a real one and one that hasn't yet been written about there's a serious problem of from death squads in South Africa a large number of people opponents black and white of the regime have been disappearing or being mysteriously murdered I think there's almost no doubt as to who's behind it and very little doubt that it will increase I even wonder if the allegedly anti white bomb in Durban yesterday was planted by anyone who's really opposed to the regime I'm afraid that the ideology and the entrenched racism of the National Party is likely only to get worse as it approaches it's it's death agony will go back then since you've answered three out of four the fourth one is on the atrocities in the rest of Africa yeah well yes I mean I often I mean I'll give people the benefit of the doubt on that I mean just to say well the rest of Africa it's all black I mean as if you know they all look alike to you which is the unconscious assumption of a lot of these questions I find objectionable but let's admit that whatever the problem in the Congo is for example or Uganda it isn't white minority rule what I think is distinctive about South Africa and this is very well put it by Joseph Reilly felt in the New York Times in his really excellent book on the subject it's called move your shadow it's published by New York Times books I really recommend it it's the best anatomy of the topic that I've yet read is this if you are poor in South Africa which is a very rich country it is because you're black it's it is a matter of state policy if your maltreated and if you're exploited and if you're told where you can and can't live and if you're told that you can't vote all the rest of it it's deliberate it's a it's a systematic policy you're intended to be like that now that isn't true in the same way of an unfortunate in the middle of the you can you had a civil war for example it isn't it isn't such a deliberate infliction on him even if his condition as it would be in some cases is a worse one objectively I hope I hope that point has come across I I think it's one that explains what some people always want to ask which is why does one go on about South Africa so much that's why did I leave anything out why do people go and work there when they're black because South Africa dominates the regional economy it is it is the it holds commanding position in minerals and industry in capital if you live in Mozambique for example over the border do you have two options you can either cross the border and work as virtually a slave as an indentured labor with no rights whatever even fewer rights than a black South Africa or you can have no work at all I don't really think therefore a person who resolves that problem by crossing the border as an indentured labour is paying any compliment to the South African system newspapers this morning have many editorials on South Africa from The Washington Times to the Washington Post so take our next call from Grand Rapids to show you the Tony auth cartoon in the Philadelphia Enquirer on South Africa good morning caller you're on the air good morning morning I want to ask mr. Hitchens about South Africa and why everyone seems to be so against a homeland concept maybe the way it's implemented right now is wrong and I'm not certainly in favor of apartheid but it doesn't seem to me after living in the country for a few months that there's actually going to be a power-sharing it that that it's possible it's workable down there it seems like a division of the country and a separate rule is just about the only way that there's going to be peace and peaceful solution thank you well some people have said that the the end result of all this will be a repartition of the country with in effect the whites building themselves about to start and not trying to rule everybody else as well as themselves I think myself that's unlikely because a repartition of the country would mean them giving up the areas that are rich in gold and uranium and the other endowments and the other reasons that they're there in the first place but your question is good I mean the there are there only there are only two possible outcomes one is a generalized collapse of the country in which every racial tribe low national group tries to grab something for itself including the white tribe and the other is the solution of the ANC which is a non-racial republic which reminds me I do have a question unanswered which is what form of government whether Pro Eastern or pro West and I think that would take I think the answer to that question lies very much with the United States it the United States has it in its power to resolve that question if it persists in the present policy of actually I think they're too embarrassed to continue calling it constructive engagement but anyway of effective collusion in collaboration with South African regime then the successor regime will not be friendly to the United States Norfolk Virginia good morning yes I have a question about the what you said so being the economic strength of nation is so and I was just wondering about really formed Congress of South African trade unions leader mr. Lodge 3re I don't that's been asked or not he is a challenge government he's given him like six month who mr. both abolished ask pause yes and I was wondering if he was there's like $5 Oh under this Union right now joining a string oh we have a slightly vague connection I'm afraid I'm not hearing everything you say um caller would you start that sense over again we just lost that one good start your last sentence over again okay do you do you see a strike by this Union as they're barely crippling the nation and what do you see the United States doing okay thank you okay well yeah as I said earlier I mean the the certain system though it is based on a racial demarcation is also a system of exploitation I mean MIT if it even if it was everyone there was the same color it would still be an outrageous system of exploitation and the emergence of the Congress of South African trade unions is one of the most powerful signs of that discontent in the last several years for the very reason you mentioned which is the extreme vulnerability of an economy that's so heavily based on foreign investment already you see foreign investors are beginning to doubt whether they're they spent their money wisely and are reluctant to invest any more the round the national currency almost went through the floor the other day because of foreign confidence and its erosion so I think that a mass workers movement is a very likely means for the for the Advancement of the of the black and Democratic cause if you've just joined us recently we're talking with Christopher Hitchens this morning he is the Washington correspondent for this publication in the nation he has been with the organization's since 1978 also Washington correspondent for The Spectator based in London and writes a column on the American scene for London Times Literary Supplement your prior assignment you were for another of the new statements and author of a book called Cyprus oh very well influenced we've got about 20 minutes left with mr. Hitchens let's go next to Houma Louisiana good morning yes mr. Hitchens the last time I saw you on the television was an interview that you did with that uh South African black PR man and I found that a very interesting interview because of the fact that a black man was supporting the basic apartheid government what was it televised uh if you don't mind me saying it was on the cable news network okay on crossfire and the think it was I found very amazing is that Robert will be one of the course the correspondents that was in the interview really like Apple was I forgot some of the words that he used either she felt like that you were backing a communist type government South Africa think about that for just a few short questions number one does the white government in South Africa have enough artillery to to keep the black population from just flat-out overthrown them if you came down to that number to do what do you say I know we've kind of really done it around on this the whole program but what do you think will be the final outcome of South Africa and that's all that's all right like that okay thank you yeah um actually I was I still realize I've left a question to angling which you've reminded me of about the Armed Forces so Africa has tremendously sophisticated Western provided armaments it ranks really almost as a NATO member with some of its alliances and with the sort of equipment to which it has access either from the West or from Israel it also has nuclear weapons which it acquired from the Israelis in the French or the technology for which it acquired from the Israelis in the French but none of this is going to do it any good I mean they can invade that they do invade Angola they've made incursions into Mozambique in Zimbabwe they occupy the whole of South West Africa Namibia and they could certainly beat any army that the rest of Africa combined could put in the field but it's not going to help them against their own people I I think there are fanatics in the government who would go as far as say Somoza did in his dying days and literally bomb their own cities they're not going to nuclear bomb their own cities the nukes are no good to them they are in effect powerless if the black majority simply decides to fold its arms and withdraw cooperation which i think is an recently likely scenario because the system is based on the exploitation of cheap labor the white song kind of starts going down the mines and doing all the all the dirty work they're going to collapse if that happens they will of course go to great lengths to ensure that it doesn't to try and decapitate the political leadership to keep some of the statue of Nelson Mandela in prison for a quarter of a century and so forth but see how little good it's done them I mean people who weren't born when Nelson Mandela went into prison and he hasn't been quoted in a South African newspaper since then it's illegal to quote if it's illegal to print his picture or his name and everyone in South Africa knows who he is and he's a hero to people who weren't born when he went inside in the end the whole attempt to keep this going by force is futile it may end in blood and fire or it could end quickly and cleanly and the reason why I go on about this is that the West could make a difference that economy is plugged into ours we could decoupled really bring pressure to bear that what the administration fails to see is that doing nothing is a policy doing nothing is a decision and looks to those on the bottom like a decision to stay with those on the top and there's no escaping a decision of that clarity in my view me share another editorial before we go to our next call this is this morning's Washington Times this is Mandela's show they write every incident such as this weekend's manhandling of mrs. Mandela no matter how provocative chips away at the idea of ending apartheid gradually State President PW Botha must act promptly and yes radically to consign that monstrous system to the past that's the Washington Times let's let's go next to Rock Hill South Carolina good morning caller good morning all right go ahead what's your question paper what is your question sir a questionnaire bro actually why this is really great for my hands are possible although that they another thing that our peoples want in South Africa they friend that's all that that's what the action for they're not asking for nothing against went to George rule they have freedom that's what they have okay thank you for your call I agree I mean I I don't think I'm that needs I think that was its own comment can you a lesson on National Public Radio the commentators were referring to this scenario between mrs. Mandela and mr. Burrowes government as a chess game could you comment on what what is happening or at least your overview of it no chess is much more fluent and fluid and subtle game than than they know how to play I mean that was just another stupid manifestation of of the apartheid regime people say why do they act so dumb Lee you know why do they get themselves in positions like that it's the nature of the beast I'm afraid if you if you say first to mrs. Mandela because you're black you have to live in Soweto she can't choose which pile Johannesburg she lives in then they say well you're free but you can't go home to the place we otherwise say you have to go to what you've done is simply expose the ironies if you like the contradictions the stupidities of your own system none of the none of the apparent blunders of this regime analyzed in the West as blunders are blunders at all they are they are apartheid at work New York City good morning Maury morning the South African government has been reported saying that they would release Nelson Mandela if he renounced violence like you comment on that and also don't you feel that in order to stave off a resurrection if you will from the right from the army that you mentioned before it's necessary to have not quote moderate because the time has come for terms like that to be eliminated but someone who represents very very much the establishment to take the steps to move South Africa in a direction that perhaps we might consider more acceptable for their general populace okay the renunciation of violence is just a trick what they say is we'll release you a few surrender Nelson Mandela says don't be ridiculous he countered by saying he would he would stay in prison if the South African government itself renounce to islands I mean that's you know that's simply propaganda the time for it is a long time ago if they wanted the ANC to renounce violence they could have dealt with it when it renounced violence itself I mean the ANC was a pacifist organization till very late in the day Chief Albert was truly sir it's it's chairman I think certainly was a pacifist and I think I said earlier it was only 961 the decision was taken to move to resistance Mandela will would rather stay in prison would rather die than tell his people to surrender and that's a measure of his stature in my view I don't think anyone really fell for boaters kontrick there as for the moderates we you said yourself it's become an absurd term so I don't know where you're going to find the person of goodwill I'm afraid that the Sun that seems to be something in the nature of the ideology of the National Party that prevents it from evolving moderates I would think that the element of its ideology that prevents it from evolving moderates is to say that moderation is the agency of the devil and that their rule is biblically ordained that doesn't kind of conduce to moderation if you're watching this program live on this December 24th we invite you to stay tuned in about ten minutes we'll be having our open phone session and the topic this morning is the man of the year next week Time magazine will be coming out with its annual issue naming the event or person who for good or ill has changed the world this year and we'd like to hear your nominations on whom you think would best be awarded the man of the year this year let's go for Christopher Hitchens way out west to Chula Vista California good morning you're on the air caller you're on the air sir hi good morning doctor your uh your guess holes right there go ahead uh you know you've already come across a couple of times about South Africa right yeah and you know I do agree with some of their philosophies there are certain things I don't agree with yours so no okay why don't you name one and we'll respond to it okay one of them is white easy Eliza Americans are welcome to Tsavo South African government arrests that lady in that government right what do you disagree with sir why is it I want to know why they arrested her okay I think we did respond well yes but I mean I can just say quickly because she is while her husband Nelson Mandela remains in prison where he's been for 21 years as the spokesman of the black majority she very courageously acts as his spokesman and as she believes he would wish her to act while his pop excuse me while he's powerless for this she has incurred the hatred and the repression of the South African government and has for the last decade at least been in in restriction as they call it which means that she's been confined to her home the column that you've written in the nation this week is called Minority Report have you been filing some columns from Africa as you travel that was the second of two that I did from from southern Africa yeah it's always called Minority Report that's it's its name how many do you anticipate writing on this topic you have a schedule tomorrow um well it looks like it's not going to go away as an issue it's going to stay in the headlines so I hope I'll be able to keep up with it and I hope I'll be able to return how long were you actually there I was deaf three weeks okay let's take our next call for you from Knoxville Tennessee good morning morning okay your question sir first of all I'd like to say that I enjoy your program very much and secondly I'm very much against apartheid as a whole but I think there are several questions that have to be answered people think that there are going to be two things happen first of all the blacks overthrow or there will be some kind of compromise but I think you're dealing with the situation much like you had an Indian when they first achieved their freedom I don't believe there's any blacks who can really rule the country of South Africa they've been suppressed for so long and even if Nelson Mandela you know were released for prison by any stretch of imagination I don't believe he's able to rule South Africa that does not say that they don't deserve their freedom I believe they do but you know the country is a very important economic force in the world and it can just not just be um thrown to the wind of revolution thank you thank you if you were took the executive of the African National Congress and added up all the university degrees and other qualifications that they have between them not to speak of the decades in prison that they have amassed as well the wastage of their time or rather in spite of all that you'd find that it easily easily outbid the collected expertise and qualifications of the South African cabinet there's no question at all that the ANC if it's permitted to can form a an orderly transition regime there and could be voted into power if an election was held if that isn't allowed to happen it's not the ANC's fault and yes there's a possibility if the extreme right go down fighting that the place could go through a Lebanese experience before it gets to its independence but what you can't stop is people wanting that independence by one means or another they've taken the decision as I put it in my article that this is the last unfree generation that they will survive the regime that decision once taken is is quite impossible to untape so it'll come one way or another and I repeat the Western democracies have a large role to play in deciding whether it'll come by by democratic means or not just Hitchens next calls from Anchorage good morning good morning not the greatest show in the world gone oh thank you sir happy holidays - happy holidays do but I wanted to discuss is the advocacy of disinvestment in South Africa on the part of all sorts of American entities university trusts on municipal retirement funds etc and way below we up in Alaska believe it or not we have a thing called our permanent fund and have from our oil revenues something in the order of 10 billion dollars invested in Wall Street and various securities it just seems to me believe that there are those were advocating this have it backwards so to speak I think there's a tendency upon those who are acutely concerned about apartheid South Africa the advocacy of disinvestment seems to be backwards it's like running it's like playing Pontius Pilate washing one's hands of the situation for example if the state of Alaska rather than disinvesting if we were to go on to the stock market I believe of the 500 international corporations non-american corporations the nine largest in South Africa and make the list some of them are available for purchase in no case do any of those corporations have a stock market value of a billion dollars so are we could effectively go in state of Alaska's Permanent Fund go in and buy an operative control of the seven of the nine largest corporations of South Africa and that's without getting into most of the gold mine stock and I just wonder if really that wouldn't be the way to go about it just effectively have our pension fund by control of all the South African corporations and then maybe we could tell the corporation's maybe you up to allow the families to live with the with the workers we're going to build housing we're going to have equal pay and by golly if it costs us a little bit for a while maybe we'll just break even instead of making a profit and then where is the South African government going to get their revenues I have a suspicion some of the people who are heavily advocating this just don't like the profit motive they don't like owning equity in corporations they from other philosophical positions they might have a lie even nation magazine and but I think it might be a more responsible way to go and I think we might get more bang for the bunk be acting responsibly and putting it into apartheid thank you very much ok we're running out of time sure um first very flattering to get a call um all the way from Anchorage from the great state of Alaska who's Senator honest Gruening actually used to be editor of the nation before he took Alaska into the Union so I was feel a fellow feeling for anyone in Alaska and that's certainly the most ingenious question we've had today I think we'd have to say that it had never occurred to me before actually to buy them out and I really don't know whether they'd sell I think the African National Congress would probably say that the resources the most of which are actually underground in South Africa it's a tremendously mineral-rich place belong to them into the future and they want to have a say in whoever owned them but and I think that would actually be their first response but I just congratulate you for an amazingly ingenious proposal all the same two minutes left our last calls from Roanoke good morning excuse me good morning how are you today fine sir I would like to find out so why it is perfectly OK the monkey that the American people shouldn't be able to monkey with the government from an external point of view with a government that is non communist yet you as a newspaper wish to prohibit us from monkeying with a communist government to turn it around to a free government no not quite what I said earlier was this we already are intervening in South Africa that's to say the the flow of capital investment and weapons into South Africa all comes from the West so the the the interventions already been made point is if we can intervene one way why can't we intervene another since that relationship doesn't exist between the United States government and any communist one I don't think your analogy holds but if it did I'd be in favor of the same policy we're out of time for Christopher Hitchens thank you for joining us this morning thank you thank you for your questions and comments on South Africa interesting morning

Channel: hitch archive

Views: 1,581,676

Rating: 4.829699 out of 5

Keywords: Nelson Mandela (Author), Christopher Hitchens (Author), Interview (Ontology Class)

Id: HD9UycYavi4

Length: 55min 18sec (3318 seconds)

Published: Sun Jan 26 2014

Reddit Comments

[u/robklg159]

I miss Hitchens and the men and women of reason who used to be around. We could use a resurgence of people like that but I don't see it coming soon. We should, as a society, feel badly that we let people like this who worked hard and cared deeply down so badly with the direction we've let things go. We should strive to make things better and embrace better practices of disagreement and comingtogetherness, otherwise it seems to me that revolution would be boiling under the surface already and things are going to get much worse before they get any better...

[u/ZZ3xhZz]

I would like to see what Christopher Hitchens has to say about present day ANC. The ANC a present day is threatening to take white farmers land, and have already implemented affirmative action where white people are excluded from many businesses. The ANC is also highly corrupt, and the country is failing on meeting it electricity demands resulting in rolling blackouts through the country. Their currency is also the worst performing currency in 2019.

[u/thugangsta]

Thank you for posting this! This was great. Listened to the whole thing while having my morning coffee and breakfast. Fascinating stuff. Also makes you realise how similar the defence of apartheid SA and current day Israel is.

[u/Zazo0321]

Please can someone post a TL/DR <3

[u/mr_loose_cannon]

Everybody in this video is a class act, including the callers.