Aldous Huxley interviewed by Mike Wallace : 1958 (Full)

this is aldous huxley a man haunted by a vision of hell on earth a searing social critic mr. Huxley 27 years ago wrote brave new world a novel that predicted that someday the entire world would live under a frightful dictatorship today mr. Huxley says that his fictional world of horror is probably just around the corner for all of us we'll find out why in a moment the Mike Wallace interview presented by the American Broadcasting Company in association with the fun for the Republic brings you a special television series discussing the problems of survival and freedom in America good evening I'm Mike Wallace tonight's guest Aldous Huxley is a man of letters as disturbing as he is distinguished born in England now a resident of California mr. Huxley has written some of the most electric novels and social criticism of this century he's just finished a series of essays called enemies of freedom in which he outlines and defines some of the threats to our freedom in the United States and mr. Huxley right off the bat let me ask you this as you see it who and what are the enemies of freedom here in the United States well I don't think you can say who in the United States I don't think they're any sinister persons deliberately trying to rob people of their freedom but I do think first of all that there are a number of impersonal forces which are pushing in the direction of less and less freedom and I also think that there are a number of technological devices which anybody who wishes to use can use to accelerate this process of going away from freedom of imposing control or what are these forces and these devices aside so I should say that the there are two main impersonal forces the first often is not exceedingly important in the United States at the present time they're very important in other countries this is the force which in general terms can be called overpopulation the the mounting pressure of population pressing upon existing resources I this of course is an extraordinary thing something is happening which has never happened in the world's history before I mean let's just take a a simple fact that between the time of the birth of Christ and the landing of the Mayflower and the population of the earth doubled it rose from 250 million to probably 500 million today the population of the earth is rising at such a rate that it will double in half a century of why should overpopulation work to diminish our freedoms well in a number of ways I mean the experts in the field like Harrison brown for example pointed out that in the underdeveloped countries actually the standard of living is at present folding that people have led to eat and bless goods per capita than they had 50 years ago and as the position of these countries the economic position becomes more and more precarious obviously the central government has to take over more and more responsibility for keeping the ship of state on an even keel and then of course you're likely to get social unrest under such conditions with again and in the area an intervention of the central government so I think one sees here a pattern which seems to be pushing very strongly towards a totalitarian regime and unfortunately as in all these underdeveloped countries the only highly organized political party is the Communist Party it looks rather as though they will be the heirs to this unfortunate process that the Veii will step into the position of power well then ironically enough the one of the greatest forces against communism in the world the Catholic Church according to your thesis would seem to be pushing us directly into the hands of the Communists because they are against birth control well I think this strange paradox probably is true there he said it's a an extraordinary situation actually I mean if one had to look at it of course from a biological point of view the whole essence of biological life on Earth is a question of balance and what we have done is to practice death control in a most intensive manner without balancing this with the birth control at the other end consequently the birth rates remain as high as they wear and death rates have fallen substantially alright then so much for the time being anyway for overpopulation another force that is diminishing our freedoms when another force which i think is very strongly operative in this country is the force of what may be called over organization as technology becomes more and more complicated it becomes necessary to have more and more elaborate to organizations more hierarchical organizations and incidentally the advance of technology has been accompanied by an advance in the science of organization it's not possible to make organizations on a larger scale that was ever possible before and so that you have more and more people living their lives out as subordinates in these hierarchical systems controlled by bureaucracies either the bureaucracy is a big business or the bureaucracy the government now the devices that you were talking about other specific devices or methods of communication which diminish our freedoms in addition to overpopulation and over organization well there are certainly devices which can be used in this way I mean let us so take a probe piece of very recent and very painful history is the propaganda used by Hitler which was incredibly effective I mean that what were Hitler's method Hitler used terror on the one kind brute force on one hand but he also used a very efficient form of propaganda which he was using every modern device at that time he didn't have TV but he had the radio which he used to the fullest extent and was able to impose his will on an immense mass of people I mean the Germans were highly educated people but we're aware of all this but how do you equate Kepler's use of propaganda for the way that propaganda if you will is used let us say here in the United States in suggesting that Anila parallel need is to say it's not being used in this way no but the point is it seems to me that there are methods a present available method superior in some respects to Hitler's method which could be used in a bad situation I mean I'll but what I feel very strongly is that we mustn't be caught by surprise by our own advancing technology this has happened again and again in history with technology as advanced this change is social condition and suddenly people have found themselves in a situation which they didn't foresee and doing all sorts of things they didn't really want to do well now what do you mean you mean if we we develop our television but we don't know how to use it correctly is that the point that you're making well present the television I think is being used quite harmlessly it's being used I think I would feel it's being used too much to distract everybody all the time but I mean imagine which must be the situation in all communist countries where the television where it exists is always saying the same thing the whole time is always driving along it's not creating a wide front of distraction it's creating a one-pointed of drumming in a single idea all the time it's obviously an immensely powerful instrument so you're talking about the potential misuse of the instead be exactly we have a quote all technology is in itself marvel in neutral these are just powers which can either be used well or ill it's the same thing with atomic energy we can either use it to blow ourselves up or we can use it as a substitute for the coal and the oil which we're running out you've even written about the use of drugs in this light well now this is a very interesting subject I mean in the look if you mention this book of mine brave new world I postulated a substance called soma which was a very versatile drug it would make people feel happy in small doses it would make them see visions in medium doses and it would send them to sleep in large doses well I don't think such a drug exists now nor do I think it will ever exist but we do have drugs which will do some of these things and I think it's quite on the cards that we may have drugs which will profoundly change our mental states but without doing us any harm I mean this is the the pharmacological revolution which has taken place that we have now powerful mind changing drugs with physiologically speaking or almost costless I mean they are not like opium or like coca cocaine which do change the state of mind but to relieve terrible results physiologically and morally mr. Huxley in your new essays you state that these various enemies of freedom are pushing us toward a real-life brave new world and you say that it's awaiting us just around the corner first of all can you detail for us what life in this brave new world which you fear so much of what life might be like well to start with I think this kind of the detection ship of the future I think will be very unlike the dictatorships which we've been familiar with in the immediate past and even take another book prophesying the future which was a very remarkable book George Orwell's 1984 but this book was written at the height of the study NIST regime and just after the Hitler regime and he there he foresaw a dictatorship using entirely the methods of Terror methods of physical violence now I think what is going to happen in the future if the dictators will find that the old saying goes but you can do everything with bayonets except to sit on them but if you want to preserve your power indefinitely you have to get the consent of the rule and this they will do party pide drugs as I foresaw in in brave new world party by these new techniques of of propaganda they will do it by bypassing the thought of rational side of man and appealing to his subconscious and his deeper emotions and his physiology even and so making him actually love his slavery I mean I think this is the danger that actually people maybe in some ways Hettie under the new regime but there is the happy in situation where they often to be happy that would let me ask you this you're talking about a world that could take place within the confines of a totalitarian state let's become more immediate more urgent about it we believe anyway that we live in democracy here in the United States do you believe with this brave new world that you talk about corn let's say in the next quarter century the next century could come here to our shores I think it could I mean I that's why I feel it so extremely important here and now to start thinking about these problems not to let ourself themselves be taken by surprise by the new advances in technology I mean the example in in regard to the use of the of the drugs we know there's enough evidence now for us to be able on the basis of this evidence and using a certain amount of creative imagination to foresee the kind of uses which could be made in by people of beared will with these things and to attempt to to forestall this and in the same way i think with these other methods of propaganda we can foresee and we can do a good deal to forestall i mean a forbidden price of freedom is eternal vigilance you right in enemies of freedom you write specifically about the united states you say this writing about american political campaigns you say all that is needed is money and the candidate who can be coached to look sincere political principles and plans for specific action have come to lose most of their importance the personality of the candidate the way he is projected by the advertising experts are the things that really matter well this is the during the last campaign it was a great deal of firms this kind of statement by the advertising managers of the campaign part is this idea that they the candidates had to be merchandised as though they were so for toothpaste and that you had to depend entirely on the personality I mean the personality is important but there are certainly people with an extremely amiable personality particularly on TV even might not necessarily be very good in political positions of political trust what do you feel of men like Eisenhower Stevenson Nixon with knowledge of thought thought we're trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the American public no but they were they were being advised by powerful advertising agencies who we're making campaigns were quite different kind than what had been made before and I think we shall see probably all kinds of new devices coming into the picture I mean they for example this thing which got a good deal of publicity last often a subliminal projection I mean as it stands this thing I think is of no menace to us at the moment but I was talking the other day to one of the people who has done most experimental work in the psychological laboratory with this we're saying precisely this that it is not at the moment a danger but once you have established a principle that something works you can be absolutely sure that the technology of it is going to improve steadily and I mean his view of the subject was that too well maybe they will use it to some extent in the 1960 campaign but they will probably use it a good deal and much more effectively in the 1964 campaign because this is the kind of rate at which technology advanced and will be persuaded to vote for a candidate that we do not know that we are being persuaded to vote okay I mean this is the other alarming age that you're being persuaded below the level of choice and reason in though in regard to advertising which you mentioned just a little ago in your writing particularly in enemies of freedom you attack Madison Avenue which controls most of our television and radio advertising newspaper advertising and so forth why do you consistently attack the advertising no I think that bird is meant plays a very necessary role but the danger to me in a democracy is this I mean what is the democracy depend on a democracy depends on the individual voter making an intelligent and rational choice for what he regard as is enlightened self-interest in any given circumstance but what these people are doing I mean what both but there are particular purposes for selling goods and the dictatorial propagandists are doing is to try to bypass the rational side of men and to appeal directly to these unconscious forces below the surface so that you are in a way making nonsense of the whole democratic procedure which is based on conscious choice or on rational ground of course well maybe maybe I have just answered this this next question because in your essay you write about television commercials not just political commercials but television commercials as such and how as you put it today's children walk around singing beer commercials and toothpaste commercials and then you link this phenomenon in some way with the dangers of a dictatorship now could you spell out the connection or how do you feel that you have done so sufficiently well I mean here cake this whole question of children I think is a terribly important one because the children are quite clearly much more suggestible than the average grown-up and again suppose that that for one reason or another all the propaganda was in the hands of one or very few agencies you would have a an extraordinarily powerful force playing on these children who are going to grow up and be adults quite soon I do think that this is not an immediate threat but it remains possible Thresh and you said something to the effect in your essay that the children of Europe used to be called cannon fodder and here in the United States they are television and radio father well as I'm dr. Dave you can read in the in the trade journal the most litical accounts of how necessary it is to get hold of the children because then they will be loyal brand buyers later on but yeah I mean you gain Lee you just translate this into political terms the dictator says they will be loyal ideology buyers when they're grown-up we hear so much about brainwashing is used by the communists do you see any brainwashing other than that which we've just been talking about that is used here in the United States are the forms of brainwashing not in the formula that too has been used in China and in Russia because this is essentially the application of propaganda methods the most bad and kind to individuals it's not a shotgun method likely the advertising method it's a way of getting hold of the person and playing both on his physiology and his psychology till he really breaks down and then you can implant a new idea in his head I mean the descriptions of the methods are really blood-curdling when you you read demand not only methods apply to political prisoners but the methods applied for example to the training of the young communists administrators and missionaries they receive an incredibly tough kind of training which may cause it's about 25% often to break down or commit suicide but produces 75% completely one-pointed phonetics the question of course that keeps coming back to my mind as this obviously politics in themselves are not evil television is not in itself either evil atomic energy is not well and yet you seem to fear that it will be used in an evil way why is it that the right people will not in your estimation use them why is it that the wrong people will use these various devices and for the wrong motives well I think one of the reasons is that these are all in instruments for obtaining power and obviously the passion for power is one of the most moving passions that exist in man and these after all it's the all democracies are based on the proposition that power is very dangerous and that it's extremely important not to let any one man or any one small group have too much power for too long a time after what are the British and American constitutions acceptive Isis for limiting power and all these new devices are extremely efficient instruments for the imposition of power by small groups of a larger message well you asked this question yourself in enemies of freedom I'll put that I'll put your own question back to you you asked this in an age of accelerating overpopulation of accelerating over organization and ever more efficient means of mass communication how can we preserve the integrity and reassert the value of the human individual you put the question now here's your chance to answer it mister axon where it is obviously first of all the question of education I think it's terribly important to insist on individual values I mean what is there is a tendency as you probably read a book by white the organization man a very interesting valuable book I think where he speaks about the new type of group morality group ethic which speaks about the group as though the group was somehow more important than the individual but this seems as far as I'm concerned to be in contradiction with what we know about the genetical makeup of human beings that every human being is unique and it is of course on this genetical basis that the whole idea of the value of freedom is based and I think it's extremely important for us to stress this in all our educational life and I would say it's also very important to teach people to be on their guard against the sort of verbal booby traps into which they're always being laid to analyze the kind of things that are said to them well I think there is this whole educational side room and I think there are many more things that one could do to to strengthen people and to make them more aware of what was being done you're a prophet of decentralization well they yes if this is feasible it's one of the tragedies it seems to me I mean many people have been talking about the importance of decentralization in order to give back to the voter a sense of direct power I mean an enormous electorate feels quite impotent and his vote seems to count for nothing this is not true where the electorate is small and where he is dealing with a with a group which he can manage and understand and if one can as Jefferson after all suggested break up the units into a smaller and smaller units and so get a real self-governing democracy well that was all very well in Jefferson's day but how can we revamp our economic system and decentralize and at the same time meet militarily and economically that does the tough challenge of a country like Soviet Russia well I think is the answer to that is that there it seems to me that you were the production industrial production is of two kinds I mean there are some kinds of industrial production which obviously need the most tremendously high centralization like the making of automobiles for example but there are many other kinds where you could decentralize quite easily and probably quite economically and that you would then have this kind of decentralized I before you begin to see it now you can travel through the South this decentralized textile industry which is springing up there mr. Hart so let me ask you this quite seriously is freedom necessary far as I'm concerned it is love is it necessary for a productive society yes I I should say it is I mean a but genuinely productive is that I mean I think you could produce plenty of goods without much freedom but I think the whole sort of creative that life of man is ultimately impossible without a considerable measure of the individual freedom of that initiative creation all these things which we value and I think value properly are impossible without a large measure of freedom well mr. Hutz Lee take a look again at the country which is in the stance of our opponent anyway it would seemed anyway it would seem to be there Soviet Russia it is strong and getting stronger economically militarily at the same time it's developing its artforms pretty well it seems not unnecessarily to to squelch the creative urge among its people and yet it is not a free society it's not a free society but here is something very interesting that those members of the Society of actually scientists who are doing the creative work are given far more freedom than anybody else I mean it's a privileged aristocratic society in which provided that they don't poke their noses into political affairs these people are given a great deal of prestige a considerable amount of freedom and a lot of money I mean this is a very interesting fact about the new Soviet regime and I think what we're going to see a is a people on the whole with very little freedom but with an oligarchy on top enjoying a considerable measure of freedom and a very high standard of living and the people down below the Epsilon's down below drawing very little and you think that that kind of situation can long endure I think it can certainly endure much longer than a situation in which everybody is is kept out I mean they can certainly get their technological and scientific results on such a basis well the next time that I talk to you then perhaps we should investigate further the possibility of the established of that kind of a society where that where the drones work for the queen bees up above we've been used but I must say I still believe in democracy if we can make the best of the creative activities of the people on top plus those of the people on the bottom so much the better astac slay I surely thank you for spending this half hour with us and I wish you Godspeed sir Thank You Aldous Huxley finds himself these days in a peculiar and disturbing position a quarter of a century after prophesying an authoritarian state in which people were reduced to ciphers he can pointed Soviet Russia and say I told you so the crucial question as he sees it now is whether the so-called free world is shortly going to give mr. Huxley the further dubious satisfaction of saying the same thing about us stay tuned for a preview of next week's interview till then Mike Wallace good night [Music] [Music]

Channel: someoddstuff

Views: 415,781

Rating: 4.9142227 out of 5

Keywords: Brave New World, Aldous Huxley, Mike Wallace, prediction, happy distracted slave

Id: alasBxZsb40

Length: 28min 12sec (1692 seconds)

Published: Wed Sep 28 2011

Reddit Comments

[u/Ulysses1978]

Chapter seven in his book Ends and Means covers the subject too.

“...the political road to a better society (and do not let us forget that, if we would reach the goal, we must advance along many other roads as well as the political) is the road of decentralization and responsible self- government. Dictatorial short cuts cannot conceivably take us to our destination. We must march directly towards the goal; if we turn our backs to it we shall merely increase the distance which separates us from the place to which we wish to go. "

https://archive.org/stream/endsandmeans035237mbp/endsandmeans035237mbp_djvu.txt

[u/BBQ_RIBS]

Brave New World is an amazing book.