Cars, Coffee, Theology (1:5) Matthew Levering

my guest today is the warm-hearted and well respected Roman Catholic theologian dr. Matthew levering we were in route to the airport so we didn't have time to grab coffee sadly but we did have a delightful conversation well I cannot tell you actually how excited in modern honors for me and I've read quite a few of your books good well my question I always like to ask people it's not about theology is what was your first car so I grew up my parents moved around my five I was a college professor I can but he he'd ran up on an orchard so we moved around to Maryland to Indiana and then finally to North Carolina where I went to high school I mean Davidson so he ended up at Davidson College okay and this area is American history oh yeah Cold War that's awesome yeah so his is he's a big basketball fan so he does he would love the fact that he taught a couple passes to Steph Curry Curry's American history that's a really smart guy but the thing thing is that my dad though seems to be a stickler because when one of the stories that he brought out of this he he got along great with he's a really sociable person curry is I'm doing this but great great work on the basketball team and they're going they went to the final eight and and so he's he's called something my dad and says hey can I I guess he emailed my dad can I have an extension on the paper it's extension on the may be it on the test I can't remember it was one of the other and he said no yeah dad said no no that tanks have tanked Curry's great I mean he didn't have he didn't have any time to say loser there al but I don't know about that I can't that's the little but okay well let me get back to my question I distracted you what was your first car first car was a Ford Fairmont Oh station wagon station wagon yeah with a stick shift Wow but your car yeah as my car having died I didn't I didn't buy it I failed the driver's ed test the driver says three times using the Ford Fairmont stick shift station because I it was just I wasn't at one time I forget I was rolling a little bit at a I've rolled a little bit and then I sort of drove I drove away my dad so to never never try to do it in a Ford Fairmont I think yeah you're living in Chicago now I'm under Mundelein so yeah not too far from Trey do you live near the campus yeah I live about 10 minutes we live in Libertyville okay yeah a lot of a lot of Ted's professors in my days yeah that's right and there's there seven night salmon Scott yeah I was I think myself as living into a place where a famous theologian is not myself but Scott it with Scott and Kevin this or those are two two of the best news oh yeah so actually I wanted to ask you you've moved around a lot I mean you were a little bit of Notre Dame right but also especially a obviou both places yeah now here well the Notre Dame thing was just that's a fun thing to get to get a sabbatical it seemed like a fun thing to do it was there was just I was just at a at a center and I got to I got to meet alasdair macintyre that's huge I went to it I just was there for years as a fellow so I couldn't Allen Steere magneri Thomas and I try to think hard I'm going to think I had a really profound question to ask alasdair macintyre this was it I can't whether profound question I get where it was but I asked the question and he he answered it very politely very well in about four words and then I couldn't think of any other question no that said there that I came up with one more question and I knew that and I came other question but unfortunately he doesn't answer that by saying yes oh my god I think or something it wasn't in but it wasn't implied it was a beautiful thing but I said then just a few a month or two later we were you know the director of the center who was very wonderful and very close friends with with Astrid McIntyre his name was David Solomon we were at David Solomon's house with alasdair macintyre and and Ralph McInerney and some and semi I was there this sort of sitting there and then my but my wife I I looked over and my wife is sitting there having this wonderful conversation with Alastair back in time and I said I went to over try said how you doing yeah after after after the party or whatever I said how do you do it you know she said he said he's just a normal person you have to talk about normal things you know just like you know good you know you know actual good actual human thing yeah that's how you do ask you to choose a random number between 1 and 241 ok up to 17 17 okay so you are particularly difficult guest guests to know what book to talk about this one's pretty early in your career you still like it and give these so what the number to say 170 or 17 if you would turn to page 17 and read about okay so it says um here's a paragraph okay in other words human transformation requires and takes place within relationships that are not outcome based but rather are rooted in celebration of the other for his or her own sake and that's a short paragraph okay good yeah you wanna say something about what's going on in that if you can recall it was 15 years ago you probably wrote that oh well essentially the basic one of the basic arguments of this is that is that the I mean the argument that I'm starting off with an introduction it says why why do we why do we study the Holy Trinity why do we it's essentially like why do we do theology yeah you know and and so we the one thing I'm trying to say there which was taught to me I'm getting all of this for my teachers you know was just that we don't we don't study the Holy Trinity because the Holy Trinity is is relevant to us or because the Holy Trinity is going to is doing something for us the first source is that the first source is simply the wonder wonder and praise for for who who God is I mean that's the deepest the deepest source the Biba source to me a theological study is just you know it's just simply [Music] not an effort not an effort to to instrumentalize God but there's simply a joy of love a love for that that this glorious wonderful creator and Redeemer it does exists and does a love that he exists and and a love for him and desire to to contemplate and praise that to me that's the fundamental root of theological thinking yeah maybe could you define metaphysics very briefly in light of this I mean I think I have an idea of what you mean but surprised to hear what you mean by metaphysics in this time well well metaphysics the thing was that when I wrote the book I'm not even sure that I really knew why metamemory I'm a learner really I'm a constant beginner yeah yeah in fact in the year in the year I think was around 2007 I do that or maybe to an eight I tried to go back and become a New Testament scholar under Richard haze okay yeah but I couldn't I couldn't persuade him that I asked him if I could applied to the ph.d program but then they asked me how much my languages did I have a language background and I just and I had to admit that really I didn't but I could pick it up announcer you could have yeah but but they they just thought that was a bit dicey so they thought they thought it may be actually going the th he I could apply they have a great THD program but I wasn't I wasn't really able to do the difference in finances was too much I couldn't I couldn't do that okay so I would always love to be a biblical scholar so yeah and I would say when I read this again I'm I'm a beginner essentially and so metaphysics as it's used in the book of course there is a technical study in metaphysics and I hardly dared I hardly dare to find that on camera right you know but the tech to the techno study is it's it's moving up from physics where physics is setting things and causes and and so on in in the world and then minute.what metaphysics studies is being as such you know and so yeah yeah yeah but then how are you using it you're using it but I'm using it more broadly here in this in this thing that's essentially essentially you know Greek Greek stuff really the book is the part of the book is sort of Athens and Jerusalem how do we bring together you know classical Christian theology and and scriptural through personal narrative and scriptural history you know how do we how do we bring things together that's that's been a deep deep goal of Maya yeah so I mean it struck me again I've worked I've read this more recently you have so and probably but it struck me that your concern was like what you're saying kind of a two-part concern so you had to go I wrote it down was the relationship of yeah theologic theology or theological metaphysics to the scriptural witness that's a and then especially rethinking the Trinity not with everything about the Trinity with metaphysical categories because the current turn even freak people who would dare care about the Trinity they're arguing it on a more either social issues or biblical so function as opposed to ontology that's what I gather from what you're getting at that was particularly interested to see of course you address Tom right and Richard welcome you know not only literature Vodka being you know my supervisor and some of it I had worked with closely and I know and I do love ya mm that's so much to offer but it wasn't that was a very interesting chapter and of course you're very charitable it gracious and I think I think Richard fares a little better than Tom does in that in that chapter and I think probably I think rightly so I mean I think it when it comes to rights excellence in so many ways at the end of day and historical reconstruction is the heavier foot I think as opposed to metaphysical or ontological or theological Richards you know more nuance on it because you know he's he's lived both lives you know he was a theologian before he was a biblical scholar he's what I want he's what I want to be I want to be that you know he thought 15 years that's right but I was curious about what you would say about his idea of identity as a way to keep the other so again the issue just so everybody's tracking with us the issue is when we think about who God is do we primarily think of him through ontological or metaphysical categories or do we think event through though the witness of what he does so functions am I getting at this right I think so I think so and and the main asset yeah I mean honestly the main point is that there's no need for people to be scared of of the Greek context which Jupiter was received maybe that's to me that's the main point I'm trying to get across yeah and the and the truth is that that I'm NT right for example in this recent book I forget where the title is it has two different titles the British title in the American title but I've forgotten what it is it's on for its own virtue I said after you believe yeah after you believe you believe yeah yeah yeah that's and it's it's a wonderful book he he's really drawing heavily on the Greek on the Greek reception so scripture but and then he's it's very beautiful of course he occasionally every now again he's this says that he says that he'll bring in a line where he just makes the point that you know Aristotle this really didn't understand their subtle Aristotle's you know not too good and we're doing scripture here and then he goes back to using a lot of Aristotle right right and and so it's wonderful you know but in other words he uses it I don't care if here's my fundamental concern my concern is that for the wrong for the wrong reasons people are trying to separate the scriptural the scriptural heritage from the from the Greek reception yeah you know from in the old days and so what I see what I see is a ripping a part of the Christian tradition where that where our scriptures are then separated from our are separated from the fourth century and from the other later centuries and and so then the in scripture becomes sort of a terrain that we sort of we have to sort of dismiss we all these false paths and it's like the Holy Spirit hasn't been at work yeah yeah and so in Scripture becomes some far I mean anyway anyway so I'm trying I'm trying in the book to basically say that that look you know metaphysical reflections not that bad is essentially taking the scriptural realities which are given to us and narrative and then and then then trying to ponder the the reality for example the reality of Father Son and spirit you know in trying to trying to ponder that reality and to our minds that need to be be purified or the way the way we use concepts to think about about the mysteries that have been revealed to us we need to be sure that we're not anthropomorphizing and we so that it's sort of a a an aesthetic purification it's it's something that it's to me is called for by scripture in the fact that scripture reminds us that God has God's ways are not our ways gods God is holy yeah you know God is you know so utterly glorious a contemplative comes in yeah and a bit and of course big part of argument is that Aquinas does resource that in a way that the concerns of the biblical studies people and other people that shouldn't shouldn't reject I mean that Aquinas is doing a lot of the same things in affirming yeah same things that's part of what you're yeah that's that's part of it so so what so people sometimes wonder about about um you know my injuries and Aquinas and yeah and that's I don't see myself as really a necessary expert an expert in Aquinas even though I do over the years in every book I picked up although I do it I do remind people that I probably written say eight or ten books where where he's not he's not okay or anybody you might say that in the best books he's there because the other stuff is just so anyway anyway the basic idea though is what what I'm using Aquinas for is because he's he really received for example just an example that I like to repeat Aquinas in in just the second part of the Summa just simply the the second part he he cites half the chapters of the Old Testament mmm does simply his second I remembered the Summa has three parts and in the second part he cites half the chapters amazing of the Old Testament now no and and as you know um the second part is devoted to to sort of an anthropology and sin and virtue okay and and so on and so it's essentially like a but ask yourself in in moral theology among the moral VLANs that that we know the standard textbooks you know how many of them quote half the chapters of the Old Testament as they go through their meditation now now now Aquinas doesn't necessarily expose it all these chapters but they form they form the patron oh yeah they're the matrix yeah it's if they you some voices that's it that's it they are they are the voices the voices of Scripture is very powerful so for him he he really models the two things you care about a deeply contemplative theological concert we didn't yeah that's right yeah because he's he's not he's not doing theology you know for for for some for some pro he's doing theology because he loves Jesus and he really wants to he wants to rejoice and to he disassembly wants to rejoice and the things that that are given are going to us and so another thing though in Aquinas is that he's able to he cites follows from east and west so he really has a strong knowledge of the the Christian tradition prior to him and and his knowledge of the Christian trisha tradition prior to him is it's very rich it's very broad and so so they're there so essentially when I'm using Aquinas for then it's he's a stand and for you know basically a stand-in for essentially a way of a way of integrating Christian tradition into into a contemporary theology and that involves to the Christian tradition but also involves scriptures so and so on well I just discovered you know to my own just ignorance that he had written this commentary at Matthew that's a recent English translation thoughtful cursory and Matthews that's like 20 years of Antigua and not realize this I love contemporary historical critical especially especially by believers yeah yeah you know I just love to read it I find it so so edifying and and so so I think that bringing bringing together these these insights yeah you know I'm from from believers my basic idea is that is that when believers read scripture and those believers include people from the past Thomas Aquinas and and and John of Damascus and you know going going all the way down you know it says that that it's it means it's a symphony essentially so I've been influenced by concerts and bubbles are in this way you know it's a symphony of voices yeah yeah and that that the task of a task of Christian thinkers like yourself or me to the degree that I can is to just really try to to integrate to bring these voices together and to to show that share the power of the gospel the power of the word through through the whole of the Asher surely the the spirits been guiding you know this this labor but the main the main the main idea is that I think that we can you know we learn I'm you know from the Fowler's from from the medievals and so on but but also also the contemporary bivolo second-gen critique and can enhance our knowledge in ways that critique i'm the tradition to me that that's completely fine but right you know i am i do press toward toward seeing it as an integrated whole because i think i just think that our christian faith isn't so much enriched by by having that symphony of voices it does even so I'm definitely open to learning learning new things so from Google Scholar yeah absolutely all right so let me change heaters to talk about one other book that I read last year that was I'm not gonna make you read out of this but was the Reformation mistake and what I mainly wanted I want to say one thing and ask you one thing about it one was what I so appreciate about this book was the idea of biblical reasoning and why again I hadn't sort of thought of it this way before I don't know but I mean your argument seems to be that a lot of the things that as a Roman Catholic that you would adhere to especially you might Luther set the agenda of the news that Protestants is screwed a concern to the yajes concerns those things aren't you want to you try to show that you it's not that you don't care about the Bible it's that those things are reasoned from the Bible right so that's that was just really helpful again not all Roman Catholics would argue that way probably but you certainly do because you really love for both the ology and movie Scripture but I appreciated that that was really helpful hmm I was also of course so impressed and thankful thanks so impressed and thankful for Kevin Ben who xor's response first of all that you let him have the last word in your book with you you wrote the book and then you got some notes disagrees have the last word so the question I have for you is or the opportunity I want to give you the last word now do you want it do you want to I mean obviously Kevin's a good friend but now's your chance man yeah bastard you you took the low road and gave him last word now you can give the word the or get up good ol Kevin I mean you can't you can't compete with Kevin then I do want to really emphasize especially to my my wonderful Lutheran friends that I present Luther and solely as just a way of he has this wonderful wonderful prose that kind of gets it right out there so it gets the problem he gets the problem out there he doesn't hold back yeah and the promise is still there in other words like all of these problems I do nine problems yeah but but they're all still they're still with us you know he kind of nailed Ian Snell and every time every time he had snail on the hip and their problems that are still there so divisive they're still trash dividing it's not it's not losers fault that they are it's just that he does he was so good at naming problem yeah right so it was and and really the the truth is that the Catholics of his day just simply had didn't have any answers yeah because they were what was happening was that they were faced with a historical essentially historical research historical research was developing at that time in the Renaissance is coming and so and so everybody everybody then Erasmus and others you know these people were actually quite learned it yeah yeah and and what they discovered was that like where did these great of these these the papacy and and on and on you know it's these ideas greater you come from and as a because they were you know it became clear that that they the church church history this didn't sort of Jesus just didn't kind of give all that give all the these these doctrines and then and then and then sort of a sin right and there's been the same and so and so not now people like Thomas Aquinas had always known there'd been development of doctrine but of course that was evident in Nicaea right and all the different councils so they knew there was development adoption but but they the extent of it was the extent of it in the way the way how do you defend it how do you how do you you know defend this is this is this biblically true you know so that every density are units right yeah yeah yeah so it's simply it was simply devastating for it in terms of the the you know Luther and his fellow Catholics does they there was a separation of separation among you know among people that among as it were Catholics who Catholics who I agreed with Lutheran catalyst who didn't agree with left right so and this this was just it was simply they didn't have a way of handling and that could could preserve unity exploded then yeah they couldn't they couldn't preserve unity with each other because in the end for good reason they just they couldn't tender it was just it was just an impossible situation yeah as I see it and so that's what the books about and Kevin's response is that's what I want to butcher course is all very gracious and you're right never want to have to give a paper after van Hooser he's the most clever around here creative funny profound I mean here I would have only done the book with with Kevin or something I can't imagine anyone else hardly because because you know Kevin was the one who enabled the book to be to sell you know Kevin's all the Protestants so yeah Kevin's a star so his argument basically is thank you that's awesome but the fundamental problem is still we need Romans more than Rome there's anything is one clever way again it puts it that is role of the church's theological constructs I think I hope I'm not misrepresenting what he's arguing and you could speak to is within the Roman Catholic view would still be stronger than from Scripture so even though you do make biblical reasoning you know that's it's still more Rome over Romans I think that's fair to what he's saying is that true yeah probably that scent that sounds a sense right I mean that um and if so how onto that like this well you know so so there it is it is the case that that I think that there's certain modes a biblical reasoning for example church councils or you know or Petrine ministry I think these are modes of biblical reasoning that are warranted by the Bible okay so I think to be a biblical Christian involves these modes of biblical reason I you know which at which I would include its councils like councils what happened in Jerusalem in the book of Acts and then and then the Petri ministry but but I think what Kevin would say is they it's like well well the church is sort of the Catholic Church is sort of over determined these these biblical so head so your modes a biblical reasoning how do you really know that you know that what you actually have the actual instantiation of them like church councils or or Petri ministry how do you know that these are really instantiating you know the the biblical mode of reasoning that you say is warranted by the Bible right right and my answer that would be well the Bible tells me that that the Holy Spirit is going to guide the the Christian community in its exercise of typically warranted modes of biblical reasoning right okay and so that'd be kind of my responses of that all right well you got to catch your flight but I have one more question and that is I'll get this out you're way down in the little slot there on the side of your door you'll see some envelopes there if you'll grab one you can save it any color and these have random questions in there and you'll answer the question that all answered as well it looks like that was our do you put the I used one in there okay okay you know I'm not good with time so so if I'd miss my flight one I've often missed my flight I you just get I don't tell anybody else get a little hotel somewhere and just fat try not to admit it so the question is I'm what is something you want people to remember about you hmm I want to be remembered by God I mean to me that's that's the key thing is um so I'm often very moved by it by this sense of you know but in the Old Testament where where God remembers his people you know God God remembers his people he here as where he hears their cry and he remembers that he he comes to them and they they cry out um that's what it is I feel I feel that I'd like to be I'd like to be remembered as as as part of the church our stories our individual stories are part of the story of Israel's part of the story of God's salvation so part of the story of the church and so I'd like to be part of that whole story I remember it as part of you know a tiny part you know if God remembers remembers us that that's the kind of remembering that I that I want to be a part of and included in that's really and so and so they were there I just had a Catholic point to that you know which is um you know we do remember Saints and and basically we're remembering Saints and we think a lot we think a lot about Saints and we we asked them to pray for us and all that kind of thing but the basic idea there is is that we're not we're part of this whole story it were that God is God isn't working in his people and so and so it's it's not really there remembering the remembering is really a you know we we see that that God God remembers his people by by raising up people of holiness who have given their lives to Christ and so got the main point though is that God remembers his people and and so that we we are part of this whole people that God remembers and so we we want to remember that we have to remember that we are we are part of these people and those people that spans fans all the all the centuries which God has been working out his plan well that makes my answer kind of sucky I mean I would want to be remembered as a person of love especially yeah you've got a bunch of kids I've got six kids I think you've got a bunch of kids yeah it's cuz I read Aquinas when I was a seminary student for Canton about it no more kids in fact I've never told anybody there very few have but you know as I socially think about my kids and the heritage I just want to and my students that I that I was a person of genuine love wow this has been I was looking forward to this this has been even better than I thought so appreciate it well thank you so much out of conversations we can have a man a man John okay hey thanks so much for watching three really quick things if you like this video subscribe to our YouTube channel and connect with us on social media we'd really appreciate it secondly check out the comments section below we've put a bunch of program notes and links to interesting things there and third check out some of our episodes you can see linked here thanks we'll see on the road peace

Channel: Cars, Coffee, Theology

Views: 3,976

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Id: Ve6XvH7rk9o

Length: 30min 56sec (1856 seconds)

Published: Fri Dec 14 2018