Cars, Coffee, Theology (2:1) JT English & Jen Wilkin

[Music] for this special Texas edition I traveled on the Dallas to be with my dear friends JT English and Jen Wilkin we talked about a couple of Jen's excellent books and also about the great question of theological education [Music] [Applause] welcome to the Texas edition this is exciting it's my guest JT welcome back thank you yeah every January for several years now it's been quite nice so I always like to start with my favorite opening question and that is what was your first car and so both of you guys can answer that mine was it depends I mean I guess technically the first one was a 78 Caprice Classic nice it was silver on the outside and red velvet Wow it was my dad's and it was the one that every single kid got yeah where were you in the birth order I am the third okay yeah and it was still going didn't wreck it no it made it all the way through all five of it okay okay 8-track play nice yeah yeah yeah yeah very good 1896 white Jeep Cherokee no suffering for the Lord right that's right there's Colorado alright we're gonna get back to that and I do think one of the best opening lines of any book I've read in years was from none like him I think maybe it was in his image when if my paraphrase you if anyone would have told me five years ago that I would open a book to women with proverbs 31 I probably would've punched him in the face what a great opening line seriously because we've so so Gordon it off to its own yes because it's so disconnected from the life of the church it doesn't receive the value or the attention that I believe it and then you know women need to be pressed on the thing that is hard for them and so one of the things that I think women's ministry can do uniquely by providing gender specific areas learning environments specifically women let down their guard in a different way it's an all-female group and they give themselves permission to speculate and to hazard a guess whereas they might not do that in a mixed gender group and then there's just the general vulnerability that they can have in a group that's all women and I mean a lot of these things are true actually of the men's groups - yeah well we have men's and women's classes in both environments so I think when you begin to see women's ministry is how are we making space for gender specific gatherings that make sense and that increase the health of the church versus let's just get the women but it's all the same thing it's all decide right that's what I love what you're saying that it's really if there's all about discipleship and then there are some advantages in some situations to have men and women meet separately I mean that's that's really a very different vision [Music] [Applause] [Music] let's talk about theological education and something we all care about and are involved in different elements of it maybe just describe a little bit about what you guys are doing here what your roles are what your vision is and then maybe we could talk a little bit about the church seminary thing as well with you and I have had good conversations about over time it's a part of this for me it kind of goes back to as part of my story I came to faith in college was discipled for a year or two and then leading college I felt the call to ministry which my pastor and said hey I really would love to I didn't have this kind of language but I want to go into ministry is what I was trying to tell him and he said you need to go to seminary and as I kind of somebody was grown up in a post-christian environment that was surprising to me because I didn't even know what a seminary was anyway no there was this whole kind of subculture of evangelical higher education grateful if there is and I loved my time in higher education but I was confused that I had to leave the church in order to eat in the church just to do ministry a question that just nagged me the entire time is why is this kind of education not available in the context of the church one of my favorite theologians John Webster talks about how the domain of theology is the church is the people who are praying and worshipping and living in the context of her life who are most appropriate to be doing theology together and so four years ago we started this kind of experiment of the village church Institute which is thinking about how do we do how do we do theology here among God's people and there's been some big wins some losses some challenges that we didn't foresee and also just God providing and really kind of seen it happen he brought me on to to oversee our adult classes I'm not just responsible for the women's Bible study now I have for the men's and women's classes and then the mixed gender class system yeah then those have been huge ones I mean we have across all of our campuses depending on the semester you were between 2,500 and 3,000 people involved I wanted to build a kind of a year or two year long curriculum where we could just teach people all that I had learned at a church level so we call that the training program and it was gonna be primary sources it was gonna be working for the kid in a year doing biblical theology systematic theology in spiritual formation I'll never forget our first executive staff meeting where I was kind of pitching in no curriculum built I think we should do this what did they think they were higher you need to do well they knew that was something a little bit more traditional and massive portions of Scripture they're doing doctrinal statements scripture memory they're they have to do a kind of a standing deliver of telling the whole story of the Bible right I mean so it's serious it's really community so it's a big thing it's a big commitment for people who are raising kids or working I know yours or I really think looking back it really fits with gens philosophy that if you expect a lot of people they'll rise to the challenge but you were both kind of thinking the same way but every time I raise the bar right worked but I was praying for 15 to 20 people I was actually building a house we're gonna do this from the fireplace kind of wisdom like a kind of Socratic method and we had 459 applicants at first that is crazy and I had always believed theology was meant to be done in the church but it just has happened here the trajectory in the average Church was entirely toward entirely passive learning environments where people come and sit and consume content and in fairness the sermon is a great thing but it's a passive learning environment logical very few people are reading the passage before they get there in almost every environment people were stepping into they were receiving teaching over a topic or passage they had spent no time thinking about themselves before they got in there which means you're not thinking critically about what your T but just neurologically a Pentagon do we know that's the least kind of effective learning that's right and if you study if you study learning just the way that learning happens it starts with dissonance it starts with oh shoot I don't know that right and most of the people sitting in the pews are missing the dissidents they think oh I've got this this is fine and so what we do is we try to give them a healthy dissonance and then help them resolve it in active learning environments where they they are not just receiving content but they're gaining tools to be able to continue learning on their own right I think the church we often see people as consumers of content or information and we're trying to say yeah consuming is important but contribution is more important it's a part of our vision in the Institute isn't just trying to teach people the Bible or teach people theology or teach people spiritual formation it's that we actually view the people we're teaching as contributors to the conversations and allowing them to kind of to either weather words with us or with others teachers themselves I'm very aware of how much we need the Academy you need places that are dedicated to thinking all the hard things but my whole experience has been in the local church and my seminary education as close as I could even call it that would be that RC sprawl had a tape yeah absolutely yeah I mean he's probably been the most formative influence on the way that I teach and why I want to teach the way that I do because what I am aware of in the local church there's red sport coats again for the love of God video but in the local church people perceive that there's an expert amateur divide right there's an expert on the platform and I'm the amateur and so I just need to submit myself to the teaching of the expert and so in the classroom environments that we're putting together we're looking to diminish that perception of the expert amateur divide we want people to think oh I might be able to do some of this because I felt that way but I know that not everyone does feel that way and so to start asking questions about what are the the factors that are keeping people from thinking of themselves as capable of theological thoughts and then how can we again lower barriers to entry and then raise the bar once once they get in there and so JT shows up he wants to do the training program and he's pokes his head around the corner and wants me to work for him and I'm like I don't care about what you want to do I think it's kind of dumb because very nature you never know where you stand with me I'm really you know opaque so I was like we're in this giant church and you want to start something for fifteen people on your patio and I'm like all these people replies well you know all these people don't know their Bibles we got to get them somewhere they can learn the Bible and and then a year later after sitting in on what they were doing I was like I am so dumb this is the best because what it has done is from think about if something like this Bible it's the own oh and what if something like this event at my church 20 years ago when I first perceived an interest in it because we watch your children we make it affordable you're receiving a level of instruction that you know you wouldn't otherwise have to get in my car and drive down to DTS or you know an hour someone's got a feed dinner to everybody when I put here we've removed all of the usual barriers to entry in particular from women and and so it's good for women and for men but especially in the local church where you have women who are thinking of dipping their toe into the pond right they're wondering should I think about seminary but I don't want to lay out a million bucks just to see if maybe it's something that might remover and so it just has really opened actually gotten a testimony exactly like that all right let me change gears so okay Jenna I want to talk to you about this book women of the word which I read and really enjoyed and again I feel like I deserve like a special sticker or something for not that many men are from inclined to read a book called women of the word but we just have a big we have a sticker that has an X on it and we just hey Siri give me a number between 15 and 132 all right so if you'll turn to page 19 and just read first paragraph your eyes you'll fall upon there man this feels risky you wrote it page 19 only okay hey that's awesome read that whole paragraph there so this is a book for those who are ready to start digging this is a book for those who are ready to face squarely the mountain of their fragmented understanding of Scripture and brandishing a spoon commanded why yes okay well perfect I want to ask you why did you write this book and that is a great burger yeah I wrote it because someone gave me a spoon - you know the Chinese proverb that I opened a book with is how do you move a mountain one spoonful at a time and someone did that for me and and I I consistently hear from I would say just women but it's people I hear from people I've been in a church my whole life and no one has taught me how to do this and that shouldn't be that way people should not feel like strangers in their sacred text and it doesn't doesn't mean that every time I pick it up I understand every single you know interpretive and an application point from the text but I should be able to feel like I'm growing in my comfort with what is in there and that that God is revealing his character to me through his word and and then I don't that while he's given us teachers and I'm a teacher so I value that role I mean you know the message is not just go do this on your own but it is you should own this this is for you and we live in a day and age where we enjoy unprecedented access to the text and I would say that we're also at unprecedented levels of biblical illiteracy at the same time so I just don't want that irony to be resolved okay he said explicitly not to do that that was lukewarm milk are you crows you do black coffee next time fill out this sentence okay I hope God may use this book to give women some courage to open the Bible on their own okay and to see them sell up now that sense is getting longer to see themselves as think thinkers I want women to have a thinking faith and so often we've only been resourced with things that encourage us to feel okay and it is frustrating I think it's infantilizing to women and so I want them to perceive that if they want to feel deeply about God and they need to be able to think deeply about God I should have said it is so well written oh thanks I really mean all three of your books were so well written I really I said crap I need to write books this good in terms of just the illustrations right working where these but the one of the like so many little moments and great illustrations but one you mentioned the studies done by neurologists psychologists done pleasure and the pleasure actually develops when you give attention to something yeah and that's such not our current way of thinking and so that you use that as an important illustration for this that if you give attention and energy to studying the Bible then that's actually how the pleasure and the worship of God Himself will increase right that we actually human brain is wired to take pleasure and the thing that we learn about so you know I hear all the time people saying oh I just don't feel close to God I just don't feel and they want that feeling to increase and they think the way to increase it is to like to listen to the worship music a little louder go on a retreat somewhere and it's not that those things don't have an impact on the way that we feel about God but ultimately to know him is to love him right and and and and we are trying to focus our feelings on an unknown God when we don't seek out the knowledge of who he is and the smashers yeah it's good and I love also the unhelpful habits and Bible reading yeah the Sam X approach the pen ball approach the magic 8-ball approach the personal shopper the telephone game and the Jack Sprat I just felt like dang she totally went up to me because then in my reading what I mean did better than I did is what I mean in reading Gusto's wisely and you heard me teach it here too I talk about the WSM method that whatever strikes me not good but that this is way better than my WSM but this is like much more memorable creative and several different versions of it so those are just brilliant but and then instead you recommend five P's purpose perspective patience process and prayer and yeah do you just want to say anything more about those and I can ask some more specific questions but I think really what the book is advocating for is that we reclaim distance so we don't just have a Bible literacy problem our Bible literacy problem exists within a general literacy problem in our culture and so many of us have never learned to read a book much less the Bible right and what I'm asking people to do is just say that acknowledge it it don't feel ashamed of that I'm dr. Fayed and act like you do well and really if you don't know how to do this that's not on you that's on the local church that was on the people who are called to instruct you in these things and so say it and then begin to find help so that you can grow [Music] here's the question yeah so not a not a but but an and so love it awesome book love the method set up here I mean I love everything you've put there but I do have to ask and this is a great question for both of you then so you give a process and you know the five keys that are excellent they're beautiful what's the role of first teachers which you mentioned something about that in your view here and then specifically even more what's the role of theology and the church and and just to clarify what I mean and then I want you both to answer what you've given here is what I would perceive as about the best version of modern and that doesn't mean it's necessarily bad I don't mean that in a boogeyman term but a very kind of modern way of studying the Bible by empowering encouraging people in this case particularly women but really anyone to study with some method and some encouragement and some kind of helpful reminders that there are some ways of reading that are better than other ways all that kind of stuff when I put it down then I couldn't help but ask but there's not really any theology in here there aren't any teachers in here and the church is not in here I know you care about all those things but as a book that's saying here's how to study the Bible encourage you how would you answer that well let you go first and then maybe you want to jump into you know what I'm asking yeah I do know what you're asking and there is actually a whole chapter in there on teaching but yes but ok yes about the room but that's true and that was really great very empowering as well I meant what's the role of teachers in the method that you're giving like you gave teachers so teachers are commentary ok so at the point that you have done your work your portion of the work then you we should go to commentary you say that in there I I don't know that that part came out I say I say wait to look at it until you've done these other things first so it's an order of operation but you're picking up on that is one of the most common disconnects that people get they run completely the other direction because they get they hear me saying hey all you're doing is taking in what someone said about the Bible and so then they think okay so I should just do this all on my own like the inductive style you know part of my right thing is the inductive my English dictionary and there we go I go yeah and so and actually I do talk about it it goes by pretty quickly in the book but about how this is meant to be done with others and then you know the the teaching is something it is a gift that is given from the Lord's Church yeah we must need teachers you know and and a lot of times people will say well how was I supposed to come up with all that historical information on my own and it's well you're not the the church has been gifted with people who have a natural curiosity about that and have spent their lives finding those things for us we can be grateful for that we can receive it so that one yeah the teaching part I think could more easily fit into it but I'm especially interested in the yeah how does theology proper like and I mean theology proper in the sense of just God but how does how does systematic theology constructive theology inform and dialogue with what you're suggesting well obviously I'm trying to reach the average attendee in the church the person who's sitting in the pews for whom the idea of systematic theology feels terrifying yeah and so my assumption in writing this book is that if this person goes through their pastor and asks for a couple of decent commentary recommendations to go along with what they're studying that's going to introduce them to theological cons but ideally someone does get an overview of what systematic theology is does read something that deals with biblical theology themes right and particularly I think I mentioned meta-narrative in here well but not biblical theology I'm talking actual systematic and there's a difference because biblical theology meta-narrative is kind of that's that's still kind of in the realm of Bible study journey as opposed to actual historical doctrinal creedal constructive and systematic no I absolutely think it's important for them to be introduced to systematic theology categories and so like as a teacher what I'm doing is I am using the as we're walking through a book of the Bible I'm using whatever is introduced you know whatever I can attach on to so we're going to talk about the Trinity when we're looking at the baptism of Jesus because in the gospel and that's the role of teacher done doing yes the teacher is putting that in there but again the goal of giving them something like this is not to say oh you don't need teachers anymore right yeah and I didn't sense that yeah as a teacher I would be out of a job I love teaching so I'd like them to keep coming yeah good day to you Anna yeah I think I think so so we're Jenna and I may be I think our methods may be our methods are so in line on so many areas but I think we're we just work where where we believe is maybe a little bit different her big emphasis is Bible literally my began this is theological literacy so I'm regularly asking her the question that you're asking it's actually been great when I feel and I'm metaphorically and literally sitting right between you and this is I'm a New Testament scholar yeah well but I mean I'm a New Testament scholar my world is no my world is literary in historical study yeah but my own journey has been recognizing that you really can't do that not only should you not do it but you actually cannot and are never doing it apart from a theological construct right and so a lot of times people think once they get into Bible study that somehow its precepts yeah that's my concern nothing not that your book cause that concern you just that's an ongoing question my mind you know it's fair it's fair critique I mean that is the thing that the wrong conclusions people tend to draw is I can now just go in it's just me and my Bible and that anything that anyone says about the Bible is immediately suspect right yeah instead of oh no the Lord is actually gifted people to to bring again just be clear yeah I didn't think that you stepped on those minds it just evoked that bigger question I'm asking myself like well that's one of the most important conversations going on I think in that angelical ISM right now is the overall theological method yeah and so I would say one of the so if biblical illiteracy is one of the greatest challenges that we're facing right now and being a pastor and local church I would say it is discipleship is at crisis level like at the right level even in a church like ours just rich and healthy and one of the best preachers of a generation we are struggling with it - yeah and so as a theologian I want to I want to say that one of the ways to solve Bible illiteracy is by coming at it from the lens and perspective of theological literacy and so giving people kind of a catechetical or a theological lens to become better readers of their Bible yeah I would say it's one of the solutions or part of this well and I guess truth be told these are really theology books I mean what am i saying I repent right yes I would say but actually as I think about it more these are these aren't really these aren't Bible studies as you might think these are really dealing with the predicable and community yeah exactly I certainly I would not categorize those as Bible study right yeah i want i want a pure definition and bible study because that's a big part of the confusion if left to is if everything is a Bible study then it's no wonder that people don't know the Bible 20 years down the road when they've done thing but topical right studies and I think that's my hesitation in the comment when JT and I push on this all the time between each other that that systematic theology is topical study and so that doesn't mean that it no it doesn't mean it's bad but when people are existing on a diet a steady diet of only topical studies yeah then then the thing that I want to hit them with first is hey what if he thought about studying the Bible differently yeah and then by the time they hit systematic theology they're not thinking about topical study of the Bible the way that they were before they're looking for the text - they're looking for the theology to emerge from the text rather than attaching the text to the pieces of theology that they're learning one of the one of the ways I would say I think you'd say this Jen but correct me if I'm wrong but that has made our kind of partnership in doing education in the church I would say relatively successful is because of our different emphases yeah that's what I'm struck by is just you guys are perfect combination both formal education not form a theological education Bible study theology that's exactly what I'm trying to say is that just people will spend sometimes seven eight nine ten years and Jen studies and then come to the training program oh oh so last thing I always do I'll let you choose Jen just about one of these I hope that last thing made me cry I don't know no this is not a quote from you or anything you only cry when you code yourself now and run read the Bible but so this is a random question that we all in turn give a short answer to that we're all long-winded people so we got to give short answers to this I have no idea what there's gonna be three must-haves for a road trip that's a good Oh never wants to go first coffee gum Cheetos I would say coffee a good podcast to listen to and a good friend okay she chose channels for the Red Birds who brings Cheetos for me it would be audiobook I listen to mostly tons of fiction on audio constantly audiobook coffee and probably some cheese I eat mostly protein coffee and cheese well not in the same bike I said coffee and she does right yeah come on yeah awesome well this has been really enjoyable I appreciate you guys time and so encouraged by the ministry here and so and it's great for me to get to come down and be with these we love it when you call me so well yeah thank you awesome thanks that's a wrap hey thanks so much for watching three really quick things if you like this video subscribe to our YouTube channel and connect with us on social media we'd really appreciate it secondly check out the comments section below we've put a bunch of program notes and links to interesting things there and third check out some of our episodes you can see linked here thanks we'll see on the road peace

Channel: Cars, Coffee, Theology

Views: 9,225

Rating: 4.9689922 out of 5

Keywords: cars, coffee, theology, jonathan pennington, pennington, sbts, vlog, talk show, theologians, christianity, christian, vlogger, jt english, jen wilkin, the village church, women in the church, women, church, god, jesus, jesus vlog, christian vlog, southern baptist, professor

Id: Z8GfL0P7BBg

Length: 29min 16sec (1756 seconds)

Published: Fri Nov 01 2019