Canon J. John: Conversations About Faith

welcome to Socrates in the city oxford edition thank you thank you please please please please remain in your seats remain in your seats thank you thank you that this really is a tremendous to be here I've thought about this for the longest time wanting to come and do this in Oxford it seems to me that half of the speakers that I've wanted to have as my guests are all here or near here and I thought wouldn't it be cost-effective and wonderful not to have to pay for business fare airfare to fly them over to New York for example because they're all prima donnas especially what's his name man but no it really is it's so funny I thought would it be wonderful to do a whole bunch of them right here in Oxford please and and so we've done it we've done it but we're just excited socks isn't any case you don't know anything about it is called Socrates in the city because Socrates famously said the unexamined life is not worth living and then he blew his brains out in an alley you probably didn't yeah that was a joke they did they didn't have guns in antiquity no Socrates said the unexamined life is not worth living and so we thought that's true and especially in New York people lead rather unexamined lives wouldn't be wonderful to have a speaker series where I interview people and we talk about the big things that people typically don't talk about certainly not in polite society God the meaning of life does life have meaning all those things that you know get you thrown out of those parties won't get you thrown out of socketing city in fact just the bigger the better we like the big questions so we have a smorgasbord of speakers here at Oxford and back in the States and we we have fun the idea is to have fun the search for truth and meaning ought to be fun it seems to me so so that's what we do we've been doing it for a number of years and you can go obviously Socrates in the city comm number of YouTube videos and interviews and sometimes just speakers we used to do it just where the speakers would would speak but then I couldn't interrupt them and it was inconvenient for me so my guest today he looks poised to leap up here so I better get on with it is very difficult to describe he's described himself alternatively as an evangelist Minister speaker social activist and writer and that doesn't even begin to do it he has spoken at conferences and universities in 69 countries imagine he counted them how how pathetic is that and not 68 no now it's 69 I'm going to put that in the bio and on six continents sadly there are seven continents it's so sad that he wasn't able to make it to Antarctica as if the people there don't need God I joke only because my guess is kind of a big deal many of you are are just in a tizzy that that you're in the same room as Canon J John I've gotten over it he has written but he as AE as a big deal and if you've heard him speak he speaks to zillions of people every year he's written over 50 books a few of them himself and because when you get to that level you have you have staff even your ghost writers have staff you don't you don't even read the books you don't even read the books but who cares there are a million copies of his books in print in 13 languages and I've had this issue - it's a wonderful thing to have your books translated into other languages the difficulty always is to eventually see if you can get them translated back into English so that your friends can read them really no really uh j-john we can ask him about his name in a moment is a Greek Cypriot by birth now this is perhaps the most exciting part of this for me personally and I want to ask him about that because I have a Greek background as well he lives in truly wood hoffa chur halfa - heavy - what is it inherited Hartford and Hampshire hurricanes hardly happened yes the rain in Spain he lives in Hartford sure is this correct hospital thank you thank you and he's married to kilee who is here if you married somebody named kilee we know you're not from Texas we don't have kilise over over by us that's a very English name his goal in life is really to help people discover spiritual meaning in a way that makes sense of everyday life which is why I like this man very much a warm Oxford Socrates in the city welcome please for Canon Jay John yes thank you thank you how'd it go there he is please remain seated at least please remain seated Wow well here we are here we are Eric how are you I'm aiming good heart how are you I like your accent so much that I'm tempted to imitate you are you give it a go no no I can't too late just even the way you say all you are you see I wouldn't say I'd say are you are you say are you and you say oh you you like there's a sort of an edge yeah which is why you're so entertaining to listen to it's it's very warm and a piece I wouldn't go that far no but it is it's extremely warm and appealing we met in New York City what in April I guess it was we finally got together we have a number of friends in common week and they insisted we get together yes and that's even before they realized that you're Greek and I'm Greek and that that's the main point of contact as far as I'm concerned okay so if you don't mind when it was blondie for the at least for the first 20 minutes in great Greek so just if you need to get a cigarette break this would be great time to do it um Tommy la mia mano Alina Katonah Nadine economy lee sooman okay Polly kala Pony holla yeah yah-tchi yah-tchi yah-tchi yah-tchi nae nae Oh Matt's about it okay so uh better switch back to ugly car man why not but that does interest me and interested me when we first met the the larger question I want to talk about today and and I hope everything can sort of tie into this you describe yourself in so many ways and having followed you somewhat and looked at your work I realize it is difficult to pin you down which I would say is a compliment because I think that part of the problem we have in a culture today when we're talking about faith issues or talking about larger issues the issues of life people get uncomfortable and they feel comfortable if they can pigeonhole you and say oh he's one of those thank you very much but when you defy those categories or you defy easy categorization it actually forces people to pay a little bit of attention to figure out what it is that you're saying which is good because then they actually have to hear what it is you're saying so let's start there how do you describe yourself what is it that you do well I'd say different things to different people okay pretend you're talking to me okay so we'll if I'll give you an analogy i sat next to this lady on an aeroplane at Heathrow Airport in London I said hello and she said all hello and I said was a very good imitation of that woman but that's it as I said where are you going and she said Singapore then she said to me where are you going I said Australia I said what do you do so she told me and then she said what do you do and I said well I work for a global enterprise she said do you I said yes I do I said we've got outlets and need every country of the world she says have you I think yes we have I said we've got hospitals we've got homeless shelters we got hostels hospices we do marriage work justice work we got orphanages got feeding programs as in basically we look after people from birth to death and we deal in the area of behavioural alteration and she went Wow by me like really loud people all turned around and looked at us and she says what's it called I said it's called the church should be heard of it you know it's a straight away it kind of it moved the goal posts I love to know what her reaction was did she feel that you were putting her on no will well we spoke from London to Singapore about the church what does it do why doesn't go into Singapore that's a couple of hours it's a bit longer actually huh yeah and I was a little bit annoyed because I wanted to watch movies ah yeah yeah I think what happened you know it kind of picked up there was a curiosity that was created it was like wow and and actually one of the things I tried to do Eric is is is also give people a kind of a different perspective on things to see things in a different way well that's what I'm trying to do that's part of the issue and I want to talk to you about that as well that we live in a culture in the West specifically here in England and certainly where I'm from New York in the states where when you talk about God stuff anything related to it people don't know how to have that they either don't speak that language so it makes them uncomfortable or they've had some bad experience with some freakish I would say heretical branch of the faith and which they mistake for the faith because it was presented as such and so they're very uncomfortable and so to be able to give people a different perspective seems to me the first step in actually communicating anything yeah well a lot of people's understanding of Christianity is actually a misunderstanding yeah yeah so it's engaging in such a way as the clear away those misunderstandings that's the first task of any kind of engagement with people well it's funny because if you think of it and I know you do that was exactly what Jesus does in the Gospels yes or did does it because he was most attacked of course by the religious figures of the day a who themselves had this misunderstanding and who had communicated this misunderstanding to the people so that he must have been initially confusing but what I yes but what I like I I like the encounter with Jesus and a woman known as the Samaritan woman now when Jesus met the Samaritan woman there were big barriers between these two people I mean Jesus was the high high priest and she was living in adultery okay men didn't spit so you've got a moral barrier there's a woman at the well Mormon at the world famous woman as well she got a moral barrier there then men didn't speak women didn't speak to men that they didn't know you've got a social barrier then he's Jewish she's Samaritan so you got a racial barriers was Jewish she was and then Jesus being Jewish there was a religious barrier because she was a Samaritan she got ass moral barrier social barrier racial barrier religious barrier and how did Jesus speak to this woman well he spoke to her on the one thing they had in common which was h2o water people don't often see that but in fact Jesus engages with whatever we've got in common I have never I mean I've heard many sermons on that passage but I've never heard that ever the idea that he engages her on the one thing that they have in common doesn't focus on what they don't have in common it's well it's interesting too because I think that part of the problem that I've seen as many times where people are trying to communicate their faith they're excited about their faith but as they communicate they do it in what I would call a religious way which is initially off-putting because people say I don't speak that language yes but the idea that Jesus himself yes does not do that that he engages her on the level of water yeah and what's interesting if you look at that story which is recorded in in the New Testament of the Bible in John chapter 4 what's interesting is she addresses him on four occasions okay the first time she addresses him she says Jew okay but if you read it in its context it's a bit like this Jew that's the first time she addresses you being a Jew yeah but it's pretty rough yeah right the second time she addresses him she says sir the third time she addresses him she says prophet the fourth time she addresses him she says Messiah so in this conversation her entire perspective changed that's what we're about yeah we're trying to help people see things differently so that they can gain this new perspective well I mean this gets the issue of again in the US and here people often we've gotten to a point in the culture where the idea of sharing one's faith is publicly scorned and people say well I don't mind if you believe this we're but don't proselytize they love the word proselytize don't even know what it means most people but they use it in that negative context to say just don't start with me and I think to myself it's such a bizarre thing because if you feel that you have discovered something wonderful yes you really can't shut up about it so the question is how does one not shut up about it in a way that's not off-putting I mean you've basically told us but I guess my question is can that be learned or is that innate because I know there's some people they're very natural you seem to be very naturally gifted at talking about the big questions but there are other people that feel maybe they feel theologically forced to do it they think well I just share my faith and it comes across forced but is it something that can be learned people ask the same question about writing or public speaking it be learned or is it simply innate no I think I think we can learn it I mean there's two things the one we're talking about content and then two we're talking about communication so we got to get the content right but we also got to get the communication right and sometimes you know Christians should be the way but we do get in the way sometimes the manner in which we convey things are not helpful but they become and and I think we really do need to work at conveying it clearly concisely excuse me my chickens ready I'll be right back I think so I have this one of my favorite parts about oxy those of you who live yeah I don't understand how wonderful this is to those of us who live in New York where we don't have bells yes they've been outlawed by our communist mayor were you aware of that actually I wasn't no way oh yeah but that he should coming in on yeah he know it's just been so beautiful yes isn't it but not during a TV take me now ease when you talk about what you're talking about now it seems to me that part I mean even though part of this can be learned nonetheless there are people who bring a freshness to it and it's it's noticeable people have said that about me at times when I met you immediately I said this is a person who knows how to communicate these things in a way that feels fun or feels natural and obviously it something's very important to me but in getting to know you it struck me that part of the reason is because of your story which in some ways is similar to mine I flipped out as you remember yes when I found out that you weren't just sort of Greek but you were actually Greek from a home yes with a real Greek mother and a real Greek father and smoked me at home and you knew that world of sheer lunacy as I better than I know it and I say that of course with tremendous affection but to meet someone because a lot of times in America I'll meet somebody with a Greek name like my wife yes and people say to your OMA taxes what are you to speak Greeks you know but she doesn't speak Greek my daughter who's here do you speak Greek no in other words they're people with Greek surnames but maybe the grandparents or something cool so to meet you and to realize you're of this ilk I am what's the Aramaic for ilk there is no word but you're of that ilk and I so I I was hoping maybe you tell your story she shared it with me but yes III think it's a window into a lot of what we're talking about well you know when the movie My Big Fat Greek wait came out yes have you seen that movie some of you yeah and friends of mine said to me oh is that what Greek cultures like I said no well it's worse and there is great there is power in culture mhm and there is there's an upside to culture there's a downside to culture there's there's there's great heritage in culture but there are great hindrances in culture and I was born and brought up in a in a Greek Cypriot home right we ended up living in I lived in Cyprus as a child then we lived in London now what's interesting is is that cultures that came from around the world to London try to retain the culture that they once left yeah but the culture back home has progressed right you know exact the Greeks in London yeah are more Greek right and the Greeks back cards exactly that's exactly waiters in the States yeah Greeks in America their religion and their hobby is being Greek yeah what's your hobby I'm Greek I'm great like being Greek cultivating my weakness now that wasn't the case with me because my manager Minh so I felt like an outcast like I have to be like a Samaritan if you will yeah uh and but for you you were in the middle of this oh yeah I mean like me you know my my uncle we I'm every Sunday all the uncles were the auntie's all the cousins everyone together it's like every Sunday and you know my uncle would say John what you gonna be when you grow up and my mother would reply he's gonna be a doctor it's like me first you know it's like there's this culture you've got to achieve you got to be the best you've got to progress my parents ran a restaurant and when I was 11 years of age after school on a Friday my brother and I would have to catch the train go to the restaurant and I'd have to work in the restaurant from I we'd arrive about 4:30 worked on midnight next day we would have to go back to the restaurant 9:00 a.m. work to midnight on yeah Sunday I have a Greek tutor to study Greek and pass all my exams in Greek get them alert yeah and then after the Greek lessons all the family would come it's like yeah and I remember saying to my dad I said to your dad you don't pay me to to work in the restaurant front pay you pay I give you a house you have a bedroom you have food you want pain are you not ashamed of yourself no mummy yeah it wasn't the Greek thing to do to give your kid some money no it was like I've done all this for you well as far as that goes I'm very Greek where's my daughter oh she already slunk out yeah I think that now you have to tell the story too because to grow up in that culture people don't realize when people often say that if somebody grows up in a Jewish culture the idea of becoming Christian is anathema the family is is scandalized if you go up in a Muslim culture it's worse than an apple yes but similarly people wouldn't realize it if you grow up in a Greek which is to say Greek Orthodox culture yes if you have some kind of encounter as I did and you did and you become a instant Jesus Freak especially when you're young and you're outspoken and it's as if you've joined an ashram or a a called yes or or you have said I hate you to your Greek family a really are disturbed by it now I experienced that only to some extent because only my father is is Greek but you really went through it so can you tell that that story and again its culture so basically I was that was my point that was my I just want to underscore the whole point was that it's the culture he doesn't have so much to do with religion so when people talk about Jews or Muslims they think it's about the religion in fact it's much more about the culture they feel that you have your back on them and everything that they've given you in the culture yes so to be Greek means you're Greek Orthodox right okay so it's a little bit like you're Jewish but you're an atheist yeah you're still Jewish right that's it so yeah it's like you cannot be Greek and not be Greek Orthodox so I was at agnostic as a teenager and that was fine because I was still Greek Orthodox right you see and so I then go to college in London and I meet a Greek Christian okay I never met a Greek of someone who is a practicing Christian right I bet he was also Greek and over a period of time I came to understand what it was all about I said at my baptism that my friend Andy economise built a bridge from him to me and when he did Christ Jesus walked over it and and it was like that and when when I decided to become a follower of Jesus the light came on and my mother said to me you're brainwashed I said your mother that my mother said to me you're brainwashed I said mum my brain has been washed if you only knew mum was in my brain you'd be pleased that got washed the thing is my brain did get washed and but I started to see things differently so you had a bonafide conversion experience which is very rare on the nights of February 1975 at 10:00 p.m. that's what is for me you know but some people say oh I don't I don't have a date I don't know and they're a bit kind of Concerned that don't have a date I'll don't worry about that I mean I can't remember the day I was born but I was you know why because there seems to be evidence to suggest it you know so you don't have to worry about the date okay but I did have a date but this was the thing area the the 10th of February I'm walking to college and are you from where I live to where I went to college was about anyway it took me about 30 minutes to walk and I'm walking and I see a homeless man and all and I stop and I say to him hey have you had breakfast he said no I said you want breakfast he said yes so I said well I'll take you for breakfast so I took him for breakfast I said where do you hang out he says you know where you met me that's where I hang out I said no no no normally where do you hang out goes you know where you met me that's where I hang out he says that's where I start in the mornings and then I go to the library in the afternoons and I thought if he's telling me the truth Monday to Friday throughout September October November December and January I walk past him and I never saw him this is the first day I'm now a follower of Jesus and I'm seeing homeless people I thought what's happening to me and I started think goodness I've never I've never ever stopped for a homeless man and then I said to him listen I can't do this every day but I said would you like breakfast once we'd yeah so he and he said can I bring my friends and I'd like goodness I didn't think homeless people had friends and so he would bring four friends and we started Wednesday homeless Club breakfast I approve but it's funny because people say things like this my wife has said this I've had a number of friends say this that if you have a particularly dramatic conversion in fact you can see things differently suddenly something strange happens it didn't quite happen to me that way but but I've heard a number of stories like this that it really is it's bizarre and you you remember it for the rest of your life she's such a you cross the one I surprised myself yeah I like I later on I think I've never had breakfast with a homeless man before why did I do that yeah and why I just said I'm gonna take him for breakfast once a week and then all of a sudden I my vocabulary cleaned up goodness how did that happen and all of a sudden I'm being more kind and I'm being more loving and I'm being more generous and I'm being and I started to surprise myself yeah yeah as I was saying people don't really believe that that happens but I know that you're not making it up I know that to some extent it happened to me and many people I spoken with have described this that it's just it's startling and it can happen that people can become dramatically different so now how old were you at this point eighteen eighteen all right it seems to me that your family would not have liked this I mean you said a little bit about that no what was their response well you were you typically in the Greek church every Sunday doesn't sound like it no but we went obviously Easter Christmas all those and our occasion where special occasions like that but you know I started reading the Bible I started III would eat eat a book a night I could eat one I could it does matter what time I went to bed I'd start reading a book and I'd read the whole book I've won a night I couldn't get enough of it I was reading Christian biographies I was reading the Bible I couldn't get enough of it I just couldn't get enough of it so your parents think you've gone crazy yeah was like he's reading the Bible all the time he's reading all these books all the time and then I started the church said to me what Andy column IDs took me to church and then said to me about going to Bible study on a Wednesday night and then going to church and going to this and I thought oh okay alright so then I was doing that several nights a week so obviously my parents are like what what was he joined what was what the what's he doing and right and all of this could and so there's starting to be quite a bit of friction that escalated to the point where I had to leave home really yes when did that happen I got home and my mother had burnt my Bible and all my books intentionally what everything yeah a lot that for example that was a joke no II got that I didn't actually not no no no but but the long wait a minute but wait a minute the this is very it's funny and horrific yes your mother but every now everything it's one thing to throw them in the garbage yeah she burnt them she bowed to me how she burnt them how do you burn books in the dustbin you know what yeah she burned them but the Lord okay all my books all by I'm out I had loads I like I said I I would read one a night now what what do you think drove her to this because that's very dramatic well Bobby's think Greeks are very there's a lot of drama if there is a lot really yes it's very loud it's very kind of expressive and they go to extremes and there's the shock treatment yeah sort of thing and yes you know but the thing is you know I was becoming a nice person what what happened to your parents when you tell a story like yours and there's such difficulty you you you clearly you said you you ran away from home you had to leave yes I had something similar happened doesn't sound like was as dramatic no one burned anything maybe I got out just in time they might have but I burned all my Supertramp in Kansas albums just to be clear and if you're Christian you need to do that I uh yeah I broke I broke a lot of my record really yes yes yeah that's the devil's music so but but seriously what you know so many years have passed since that time what did happen to Paris did they soften up about your newfound faith well I didn't see them for a number of years and then I met kilee we got engaged so I thought ah here's an opportunity to build bridges new beginnings so I rang up my parents and said having not spoken to them for years how many years probably I may have spoken them once or twice very very briefly but really I didn't think I'd had a good conversation with them for five years that's very dramatic well yeah I must have been very painful oh it was painful but then I ring up and I say look I'm engaged do you want to meet your future daughter-in-law and they said no so I said oh come on so I take it did they know she wasn't Greek I said I said and then we went down and they were hostile and they refused to come to the wedding so that was painful very painful then we had a son so we thought ah it's gonna be different but let me just ask you before you say that when you say they refuse to come the wedding was it because of the faith thing or was it because and I'm not kidding that your wife is not Greek is that but it feels like the same kind of thing it's related that you've betrayed us you've turned your back on everything correct we've wanted for you yeah and you're not a doctor yes that's right you're not a doctor you're you're doing this work which we don't approve and you're marrying an English girl what could be worse than what could be worse anyway but you know one of the things Eric I've been teaching in fact since the year 2000 I've been teaching a series on the ten commandments and one of the ten commandments is honor your mother and father and I've really had to grapple with that one yeah what does it actually mean and I think that commandment can mean different things to different people okay but I think to me there's a verse in the Bible in the book of Romans which says this as much as it lies within you keep the peace in other words don't worry about their reaction as much as it lies within me irrespective of how they treat me how they were you know I respond in a particular way so in a court of law you address the judge as your honor that's got nothing to do with his personality you are honoring his position yes and so I thought right I'm going to honor them and and I decided I will ring them I will keep the door open I would and now even though my mom mother doesn't understand why do what she didn't think I'd do anything actually but you know I ring a once-a-week and I'm amazed they're eight that some people speak to their parents once a year and I'm going well where do they live you know do they live in New Zealand yeah you know and I like my mother lives in Cyprus and I phone at once a week and I think it will that's the least that I can do yeah and it's like saying what's that what can I do because there's no point buying a nice coughing coffin and getting nice flowers when she dies it's too late well that this is a anyone for me honor your mother and your father because it ties in to what you were saying about the idea of it it's about the position yeah your father and mother don't have to be a good mother and father it doesn't matter you're commanded by God to honor them yes it's the same way you're commanded to pray for your leaders absolutely if your leader is Hitler you're commanded to pray for him doesn't mean you're commanded to like him you're not even commanded to like your parents but you're commanded to honor them it's an extraordinary thing the office is what God's talking about it's like he's your father therefore I command you to honor him I'm interesting that the commandment says it's actually good for you yeah it's the only command where it actually says if you do this yeah it's healthy for you yeah and you know there's so much hostility within us hmm and if we could only let go of that hostility that unforgiveness because if we can't forgive we break the bridge yeah which we must cross I've been thinking about that particularly with some family issues recently so it's good to hear you reiterate what what you're saying because it really can be a terrible burden to carry around unforgiveness terrible burden a crippling a crippling burden there are people who are crippled by unforgiveness and maybe they have never heard someone say to them you know God commands you to forgive if God commands us to do something it's easier to do it yeah because you don't have enough to think about it you just go well I must even though I don't want to I must and you do it and things happen absolutely uh you had said something about bringing your when when you had a child born you went to see your parents I don't want to cut you off no saying yeah I look at it we thought okay that would be different you know grandchild and it melted it anyway and that that particular son grandchild is he actually got ordained two weeks ago Wow so he's 28 and you name him yeah Maggie's or something Michael Michael and so he's now a minister so you know we I mean another generation yeah of is following Jesus right irrespective of what's happened along the journey right tremendous Wow I ended up going to Theological College a seminary and I study theology and then I went to work in Northern Ireland and I was working in reconciliation and healing and I worked in a prison in Belfast and did that for a while and then prison in bell--the yes during the Troubles during the yeah what how did you end up doing that well because I was part of community that worked in reconciling an American audience won't know many of them won't know what you mean by during the Troubles okay that there was some serious troubles Island Northern Ireland and Britain yeah and major conflict violence violence bombing and we've been over here your average with and every month so in the midst of that in the mail I was there you were in Belfast yes all places yes but in a prison well in for I was I was in a place called Ross Trevor which was on the border not far from where I lived this loads of soldiers got blown up and we used to go and take the services in Crumlin Road prison which was the maximum security prison where most of these people were and it's that in kind of environment you see your your your trying do you believe that that God can make a difference in these people what if you do how'd it how's it going to make a difference so even as a young Christian I'm grappling with these issues so did that then I went and work for a church in the north of England Robin not and we're Robin Hoods from and I work there and then I started getting invitations to go and speak at universities that's how it started I didn't and then I did one university only two did three and I ended up doing 102 around the world 102 university I did 102 university missions college missions Wow and and it was that where you're engaging with students and trying to answer questions and trying to convey in a convincing manner what it's all about and then I did that then I did towns and then I did cities and then it just it's not that I chose I'm going to do this I'm going to do that one thing they don't work but it brings up sort of a theme of mine this idea that when you're forced to communicate anything not just things of the faith but when you're forced to communicate with kind of a strange group it forces you to find new language yeah it's almost like if you know about you know the circulation system that that when you're exercising your your your your blood has to find new passages and create capillaries and gives you more abilities to to flow and it's the same thing with if you're forced or you could say the same thing about being forced to write a sonnet it forces you to be creative within the strictures of the sonnet yeah and when you're talking to people whether it's children or people in an asylum or in a prison in a funny way you can't rely on the old bromides and the cliches and you're forced to and they're coming to take you away do you hear this yes oh yeah but your foot but it's so interesting because that to me is the difference between what I call dead religion and real faith real faith must be communicated in a fresh way yes and by speaking to groups where you cannot order people where you cannot rely on those well-worn tracks to speak you you cannot go there you have to find fresh ways and somehow only then are you actually able to communicate because otherwise people can hear it and not so to speak I agree but sometimes I think Harry you know you can argue and it's stalemate and you can't I'm not going to win this yeah on my last trip that from Singapore the flight was midnight left midnight from Singapore get on the plane and she gotta wait until it kind of goes up before you can go to sleep really so I've been on planes before you've been on place for right so I'm just giving you the kind of detail so and so I either think right okay I'm gonna go to the restroom and then I'm gonna go to sleep so I go to the restroom and one of the stewards says to me oh hello and as I'm waiting to go into the restroom he said holiday in Singapore work I said I work I said and I said I'll what do you do and I said well I'm a I'm a motivational speaker for behavioural alteration remember this is 1 a.m. now I just sure let's cut it short yeah yeah because wow hey I have to speak to you oh just feeeeel you know and I'm like I need to get to sleep I need to get to sleep anyway I go to the restroom I come out he said we got to talk it turns out he's the purser right the chief guy in charge of you know the pilots in charge of the plane but he's all on the plane on the plane the person's not the bursar no Perot sir so then he starts asking me questions and he Sai said him listen what you know that you believe in God he goes no I'm a free thinker I said listen there's nothing free about your thinking and so that alone ship they got a laugh then yeah yeah yeah but listen so then I'm getting so tired I thought ah I'm not going to argue with you so I said listen can I can I say a prayer for you and nobody had ever pray for him in his life okay so I put my hand on his chest and I pray a simple dry hand on his chest yes yes like this did he have a car I want eaten actually no and then and then I prayed a prayer he was so overwhelmed by the presence of something it totally blew him away okay but I'm tired so I said listen I'm gonna go to sleep I'll talk to you later okay I go to sleep wake up four hours later he's standing waiting he says mr. John we must talk he said what was that I said well that was the presence of God he said I want that I honestly I can tell you stories like that all over the world I've argued with people and it's stalemate but when they've encountered in your presence of God they've understood that's the conundrum because I think that in my case I I needed a fair amount of talking to get me ready to experience God sure and I think that's the key to my mind is that when you're communicating on such big issues everyone is different everybody has brings the whole baggage of course different preconceived notions different woundedness different questions in my case I needed someone to make me feel like this is perhaps plausible before I would sort of open myself up to it sure many people of course are not that way they know that word but for me it was like the brush needed to be cleared away for me to be able to see across you know to what I was looking at but you're right there are other people that the moment I had a miraculous experience happened to me a number of times but not so many I don't doesn't happen to me as often as to you not that you're a better person because I know you and you're not but I do think that sometimes God wants to just blow people's minds boom yeah and there's nothing to argue about they're just stuck that this thing happened that they can't account for it and if and if they're in the right place it changes everything for them but I do agree that arguing to my mind it's useless because you can't argue somebody into faith I even think you could practically prove things and it makes no difference to people it's as if there's a wall and so ultimately and this is what makes it so difficult you're talking about a mystery you're talking about it's a spiritual reality that it's not as if logic doesn't come into it it's not illogical but it's extra logical it's beyond logic so logic can come into it we can have logical conversations I do think that they're people that want to know part of what they're looking for is an excuse to say okay so is it's okay for me to believe that it is logical it is scientific it is I don't have to become an idiot you know if once people feel that then they may say okay I'll go further or a little more for many people that's not the case obviously in the in the third world people I've got all kinds of problems and if you go to pray for somebody it's not yeah you know but but that's that's kind of an extraordinary story have you talked to this purse or you probably have people like this all around the world that you're bumping into well he was so excited again maybe a bottle of Dom Perignon to say thank you as I said well done mate Wow yeah I know oh my god but I tell you it's another story one of our neighbors okay they're not they're not Christians but they call my wife and I the neighbors from heaven that's quite nice as that because you wouldn't want to be the neighbors from the other side right right anyway the lady the lady had a stroke and she fell into a coma and she got transferred from the hospital near where we lived to the hospital here in Oxford John Ratcliffe and in intensive care and the family came to see us and they said we've just met with the doctors and she's brain dead and she's on a life-support machine and after five days we've agreed we're going to switch it off so my wife said well look can we visit her before you switch the machine off and they said oh would you would you choose so fond of you and that would be such a nice thing to do the only day we could go because of our schedule was the fifth day so we go to John Radcliffe Hospital we go into her room and intensive care she's got tubes all over her and I said hi it's the neighbors from heaven and my wife goes don't be so loud you know we're in intensive care I'll get here sorry sorry anyway so I start speaking to her and I say to her we're gonna pray now so I I held her hand I hold my wife's hand kilee held her other hand I said let's pray the Lord's Prayer a prayer that Jesus encouraged his followers to pray so we prayed our Father who art in heaven hallowed be your name your kingdom come and as we said your kingdom come she woke up she's home okay we live we live in a world now miracle and mystery but I mean that is a miracle yeah that is a step what in the world did the doctors say well that's the fast the mystery when these things happen they people can't quite understand it and you know what what do you say she's brain dead they're gonna switch the Machine off we say a prayer we don't even finish the prayer your way you're a bit disappointed aren't you well halfway won at least finish she wakes up she's home no but listen we have prayed for other people and and they haven't been healed of course we live in this world miracle and mystery if you and I Erik could fully fathom and understand God he would be the same as our little minds therefore you wouldn't be worth believing in wow I've never heard that before I've heard almost everything you know I've never heard that before I mean I've heard a similar concept but that's a beautiful way of putting it it's only as we come humbly to God can we begin you know to fathom and understand what do you think has happened here especially in England and Great Britain that people are more and more secular and and more and more hostile to open expressions of Christian faith I mean we're seeing this in the States as well but it seems to have been happening here at a slightly accelerated pace what's your take on how that can be happening I know people say that but I don't I don't believe that I think people are very receptive okay I you know I've been doing what I've been doing for 33 years I think people are very spiritual but it's pick-and-mix so it's a little bit of this it's a little bit of that a little bit of this you my my hairdresser I went to get my hair done and I know I know I didn't have much but you still need a bit done and you know she had a rabbit's foot on her keyring so it's sitting in front of me so I said so why have you got a rabbit's foot on your keyring ah she says that's to bring me good luck I said but the rabbit wasn't lucky so if the rabbit wasn't lucky why would it bring you any luck and she goes I never thought I never and she took the rabbit's foot off in front of me and threw it in the bin but can you see I think there's a lot of people who hold onto things yeah thinking that they're gonna you know bring them luck or sometimes I'll pick up a taxi and the drive will have a horseshoe and I said why do you have a horseshoe hanging on your mirror eyes to bring me luck what how's it gonna bring you luck and then I might explain to them a little bit what it actually represented good really well actually what does a horseshoe represent well nothing that's the whole point oh I thought it was gonna be something into hello all right you know and it right so I think what yeah there's so many things that people are clinging onto that are not the real thing their facades their illusions you know and I I really do believe that Jesus Christ the founder of Christianity is alive today you see for me that's the thing you know if you're walking down a street you get to the end of the street and it branches into two and you don't know which way to go left or right I don't know there are two men line there ones dead ones alive which one would you ask for directions it's a peat centric question no I think I know the answer because being jolly okay they'll often say about other philosophers and other faiths and other things what the reason I talk to Jesus is cuz I had it's not because I've convinced myself he's alive I actually do know he's alive well I'm afraid I would agree with you it's good but it is a funny thing trying to communicate that to people who don't know that it really is it's an extraordinary thing because sometimes it works and other times people it's as if you're speaking a foreign language people don't have categories they said they'd probably say well you're crazy I had an experience actually with a friend actually here in England a number of years ago maybe seven years ago I was in I was I was in Dallas and I by mistake I have about 2000 numbers on back then it was a blackberry so it's probably more than seven years ago and I don't ask me how but as I'm packing to fly directly from Dallas to London to go to Newcastle on time is there another Newcastle yeah nobody one other thought is there okay but I pressed it by mistake something I don't know what as I was packing yeah and I realized I just dialed one of the 2000 numbers on this thing and it's going in to talk to this person and I and I recognise it as the name of someone that I really don't know very well at all but I had the number in it I thought it would be so embarrassing if the call goes through and I have to pick up the phone and say oh I'm sorry I just you know miss dial then and how are you by the way you know we haven't spoken in 10 years and you know this operating so I shut it off immediately and I just looked at the name and I thought what is so it's just such a bizarre thing yeah it's suddenly be you know speaking to somebody with it anyway so I fly from Dallas straight to London then go to Newcastle whatever and I'm at this conference and it's a particular conference I won't go into it but it was a conference I really don't want to be there I didn't know a soul there or actually I knew the one person who'd invited me and I got there late so I said instead of barging into the session I'll just wait til they're finished and I'll wait here and I'll kind of flip through the book that tells me who's here you can read all their biography and stuff so I'm flipping through flipping through flipping through and it's all business people and things that I just don't know anybody don't admit I finally get to the W's and of the 250 people here's the name of the woman yeah I mistakenly dialed you know in Dallas 12 hours previously she's in the room she's here yeah and I said I don't care who you are you think that's a coincidence I know it's insane I mean it's absolutely insane I said this is so stunning to me when you figure out the odds of who could be at the conference who could be in my black light just thousands of numbers so I go up to this person and I tell her does the point of the story I tell her what happened hopefully in a way that you know wasn't just crazy but she clearly got it yes right but the look on her face was horror rather than joy because it was like so that weird stuff you believe might be true you know that's scary to me right knows it was scary and I realized that you can have that reaction right a pure miracle and the person justice is you know or somebody it's like throwing DB's against the brick wall well you you you say some amazing thing and people yeah the brain does funny stuff yes you think no no no no I don't think you listen to the story like this is you know as close to proof as you can that there's something beyond this world and communicating that ultimately it's a spiritual thing absolutely because it can be just checkmate and people say oh I don't care no I don't care well I'm not happy note yeah but I spoke in Sydney University and it was emitted they couldn't find an auditorium big enough for the meet because thousands of students were coming so we had to have it in the open air like red field bit like that I mean thousands there'd be thousands of students and after the first meeting I'm speaking to somebody and this girl comes up interrupts us and says I did what you said so I said all I'm so sorry I said and she said yes she says I think Christianity ruins people's lives so I said oh I'm really sorry that you think that I said look have you got off you've got a few minutes and she's like why as well if you got a few minutes I'll take you for a coffee she's our dinner so I said well look you'd have to make a decision because you know I'm not going to wait here all day but let me know if you want to go for coffee or not anyway we go for a coffee so go to this coffee shop we sit down and I all I said to it was why why are you so angry and it will it all came out by that why she's angry I didn't argue I didn't say anything I said listen I'm speaking on Tuesday come and hear me Tuesday I'll take you for coffee she's odd to know she came we went for coffee I said come and hear me Wednesday hear me and I'll take you for coffee she came we went for coffee I said come and hear me Thursday and I'll take you for coffee she came does your wife know about this yeah took her for coffee right I said to her come on Friday the last meeting and we'll go for coffee on Friday this girl decides that she's gonna become a follower of Jesus okay this girl today her name is Christine Caine she runs a ministry called a21 to abolish human trafficking and of all I did I can tell you this those five talks I gave did absolutely nothing yeah I just listened yeah I tried to help her disentangle things I just you know cleared some of the mess you see God can take the mess and make it into a message and the what people don't realize is the past is past you see it's people's past that but comes a hindrance to the future we can't alter the past but we can bring the past to the author of God when you bring the past to the author of God and you have that sense of healing and forgiveness it totally liberate cyou for all that God wants you to have for the future and really that's the essence of what we're saying what Christianity is it's saying walking with God and being who you're meant to be and enjoying it in the process as I said in my introduction you have spoken around the world 69 countries that's extraordinary six continents how does that work how is it that you come to be invited who invites you how did you get to a place in your life where you are doing something that most people would only dream would dream about doing and have you ever been tempted to preach in Antarctica if you have a dream and a man in a dream says come over would you do it well listen I'm really happy to go anywhere God wants me to go and really if I look back over my life and the work that we've done in over 33 years it's not that we worked out a strategy are we going to do this and we're going to conquer this I'm going to do that I think you you just kind of want to fix your eyes on Jesus and just allow him to lead you to open up the doors to and unchilled I'm not a driven person I'm trying to just follow the lead and be chilled about that I'm never in a hurry it's interesting actually in the garden God walked in the Gospels Jesus walked there's only one place in the whole Bible where God ever runs and that's when he ran to a prodigal so if God walks why are we running and it's just keeping in step with the spirit hmm I'm being chilled about it and being killed about it and enjoying the journey it must be a British term chilled we don't have that many chill too bout it do we get around in other words Thor out about it you know all route that's it why don't you so encouraging that I'm almost speechless almost Socrates in the city at Oxford with Hannah and Jay John thank you you

Channel: socratesinthecity

Views: 63,176

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Keywords: EricMetaxasSocrates, Eric Metaxas (Author), SocratesintheCity, faith, Canon J. John, apologetics

Id: jgMU3RlbHzc

Length: 61min 22sec (3682 seconds)

Published: Fri Feb 05 2016