Any outsider to this channel should
be able to guess that yes, I am a Christian, but those who've been
following on for a little bit longer know that specifically I am a seventh
day Adventist Christian, and the while I am a proud lifelong Adventist,
it has never been my intention to convert you to becoming Adventist. In fact, I think out of the nearly 500
uploads to this channel, I can only ever think of explicitly mentioning
Adventism in literally one video. Though, it should be mentioned that I
do show up the role as an explicitly, some of the Adventist believer in other
collaborations and interviews that can be found on the internet, this decision, the
one to not be the champion or defender of Adventism or minimally to even
take on the mantle of "That Adventist Vlogger" has been met with its fair.Amount
of criticism within my denomination. But this is a decision
that I'm still resolute on. Because to me, denominationalism
really just misses the point. My goal and my mission as a follower
of Jesus has been, and always will be simply this to point people to him. One of my favorite Christian
authors of all times, CS Lewis took a similar approach. In his introduction to the book "Mere
Christianity," he describes Christianity as a great hall of which connected to are
several doors leading to several rooms. Each room represents a different type
of denomination or congregation with a vast host of different beliefs. In one room you might have Pentecostals
or Baptists or Lutherans or Catholics. In other rooms, there's
Adventists and Evangelicals and Eastern Orthodox and Methodists. However, what connects them in
my opinion is more important than what separates them. CS Lewis, who self-described as an
Anglican did not find his purpose in arguing about which room was
better, but instead in bringing people into the great hall. In other words, introducing people
to Jesus and not growing members of a specific religion was always the goal. So this has been the spirit in which
I have made videos on the internet. It's not about me. It's not about my denomination. But instead, it's about
pointing people to Christ. So keep all of that context in mind
when a few weeks ago I came across a series of videos by Allen Parr. Allen Parr is a Christian Yutuber
with over 500,000 subscribers with viral videos, massing, sometimes
upwards of a million views. Recently Alan released a series on
seventh day Adventism with videos titled "Are Seventh-day Adventists a cult?" "I was wrong, wrong, wrong
about Seventh-Day Adventism." "Seventh-day Adventism is wrong about
the Sabbath" and "What does, if you love me, keep my commandments really mean?" When I first saw the series,
I debated what to do. Should I stay silent. Should I make a response video? Should I tear down all the arguments
that he made or should I "expose" Alan Parr to use really like
YouTube-esque type of language? Or should I simply give them a call. Seeing as Alan Parr and I
have been friends for several years, I decided on the latter. This is my conversation with Allen
Parr about Seventh-day Adventism. So, um, I want to get into the videos
that you had created over the last couple of months, but before then, I actually
kind of want to rewind to even several years ago when you and I, and Jon kind
of first connected over the internet. I want to kind of get a snapshot of
what life looked like and, and what your whole heart behind it, starting
the channel and intention was. What was the dream? Why did you get started
on social media ministry? How did it all begin for you? Yeah. So for me, um, you know, essentially
it's funny, it kind of was birthed out of a, uh, a place where I was,
if I'm honest, like I was somewhat discontent with the situation I was
in at the time in terms of my church. And I just felt like I wasn't
really getting opportunities to speak and to use the gift that
I believe that God had given me. And so I was like, okay, you know,
preaching twice a year and raised basically being under the control of
someone else who is telling me when I can and cannot use my gift was
very, very frustrating knowing that God had really gifted me and called
me to teach and preach his word. So I started looking at, okay, how
can I really get the word of God out to as many people as possible? Um, without having to answer to
anyone in terms of like, you can do it now and you can't do it then. So, started looking at YouTube. And I was like, okay, wow. If, if people are getting all these
views, putting out filthiness and stuff, that's like not even Christian
like, then, you know, how much more can Christians use this platform to spread
the message of truth throughout the world? So I started on YouTube, didn't
know much about anything didn't know much about cameras, lights, editing. I was just like totally green
and, um, At first, I wasn't really concerned about views subscribers
or any of those types of things. I was just excited to have a
platform that I could finally get my voice out once or twice a week. So that's kind of how it started. That's pretty cool. I know that for me, when I
first started, um, I started to kind of around 2016 early 2016? And I remember going to YouTube,
like Googling Christian YouTubers. And, you know, there was nobody,
I mean, aside from like Jon, which is a mutual friend of ours, like
there was almost literally nobody. I remember doing that video. Jefferson? Yeah. And Jon... Jeff, Bethske that's right. I remember like making a video "Top 10
Christian YouTubers," you know, that you should subscribe to kind of a thing. And I had to include Dave Ramsey as a
quote unquote Christian Youtuber because literally, I didn't think I had 10 people
that I could actually like put on a list. And that was how like sparse the, I
dunno, the, the, the space was when it comes to faith-based content. What was it like for you? Did you see people in the space? Was there someone that you look to
as like, Oh, If they're doing that, I could probably do something similar? Yeah. So that was the interesting thing. It was that there wasn't a ton of people,
like you said, cause I came on 2015. My first video was August 17th, 2015. And so, um, just a little bit before you
came on and at the time it was even less. Right. So I saw a couple people, like, I
didn't know too much about Jon, but I knew about Jefferson and, but he seemed
like he was doing a lot more spoken word stuff as much, uh, you know, more
than just like straight Bible teaching. So for me, I saw my niche as. Okay. I'm not doing spoken word. I'm not trying to do all these things. I just want to teach the word of God
and answer questions that people have about the faith and teach verse by
verse teaching as much as I could. And that's really what got me started. And I didn't see a lot of people
that were doing that at the time. Yeah. I remember seeing that. I remember making the connections that
everyone who seemed to have had a viral video or growing an audience in the faith
space, all were spoken word artists. And like, they're all very good at that. And I just remember
thinking like my goodness. Does like, does anyone even want to study
the Bible on the internet or is it only kind of like entertainment, style content? And so it felt a little discouraging
at the beginning for me, if I'm honest. Yeah. So it's one of those things that
was on one hand, it was like, okay, where are the other people that
are doing this on the other hand? It's like, okay, that means there's an
opportunity for people like you and I to do something different and reach it. You know, a niche of people
that there's not a whole lot of content out there for them. Yeah. Yeah. A couple of years into it,
we actually get connected. And I've been trying to think about how
we actually like came across each other. I don't know. I don't, I don't remember that. Do you remember how we kind of... Yeah, I'm trying to
figure that out as well. I've been thinking about that. Like what was the initial
connection that we made and... uh, you know, I think it might've been
something along the lines of, maybe I liked some of your background music
to your video or something like that. It may have been something like that. And I may have reached out and I
was like, "Hey man, you know, uh, I like this track" or I, I don't even
remember what it was, but, or it might've just been me wanting to reach
out and saying, Hey, um, you know, I love what you're doing, let's connect. And you know, you were gracious
enough to kind of reach out. Um, and I think at that time,
what was so interesting is. I think I was definitely a much smaller
YouTuber than you were at the time. Like I was just, you know, I was not
nowhere near where I was, where I'm at now in terms of size or anything. So I was like, surprised that someone
like you who has like way bigger channel would be, you know, reaching out or
willing to reach out and connect. You know, you have, you have had a
strong, like degree of success in the last, just like what year or two, like
your channel has absolutely blown up. I think, I think when we first
connected, I think you were still under like the 10,000 subscriber mark. And to be able to see you now you're
over half a million, is that correct? Yeah, thankfully by God's grace,
we just, we just passed over that, uh, not too long ago. So that was, that was exciting. Congratulations. That's awesome, man. I think back to some of our early
conversations, was you, me and Jon we'd hop on the phone every once in a
while to kind of encourage each other. Cause I think all three of us were
kind of in a similar space, like. Is this really worth it? Is it gonna work? Is this always just like a Hail
Mary dream or could this actually become something more meaningful? And I, if I remember correctly at
the time, most of your attention was towards tutoring kids, is that correct? Yeah, actually. And you have it right? I wasn't full time whenever you and I
started, I was still teaching math full time and I was tutoring in the evenings
and I think I had just started my math tutoring company. And so I was hustling. I was trying to manage YouTube. I was trying to manage family life. I was trying to manage my business. I was, I think I was still volunteering
at my church and it was just crazy. I was just doing so many different things. So that is basically, you know,
thankfully over time, you know, God blessed me to be able to go full time. And I think you are already
kind of full-time at that time. Full-time with air quotes. Full time, yes, but, uh, as far as
like full-time energy, but as far as income, certainly, certainly not
full-time at that point, I think that year where we first started talking
was, uh, I had made something like $20,000 through YouTube, but I had
spent $18,000 on getting to that point- and as far as like purchasing
equipment and education and travel and all those things, and so. You know, I, I had $2,000 to show
for a year's worth of hard to work. And so Net-profits full-time airquotes definitely. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, man, what a blessing, uh, you
know, that I'm sure God has blessed you beyond that now, which is great. So, uh, you know, testimony of
your faithfulness there, uh, it's a, it's a testimony to, to my wife
honestly, is she, she carried the load for a number of years really,
and just, just really believed in... the vision of what, you know, we
felt like God was calling us to. So actually on that note, I'm
curious, how did the idea of like, moving into like, With all respect, you're a little bit older than I am. Is that right? Oh yeah. Yeah. Um, I, I don't mind saying I'm 45. Okay. There you go. Yeah. So we're going to be
fully transparent today. That's all good. I grew up the internet in my back pocket. And so it was one of those things
that, you know, felt normal, felt like a logical extension of just life. But, you know, you grew up in an age
where you were, you wer, already a functioning human being when I was still,
you know, a kid without the internet. And you got to see this thing rise
like and your family, got to see it. So I'm wondering, like, what, did you
ever experience those doubts or questions from inward or from those in your network? Like, Hey Allen, you spending
a lot of time on this hobby. Like what's the deal? Yeah. You know, I just, it's funny. People ask me that sometimes. And at the time when I was starting,
I wasn't really super concerned about, um, I wasn't really super concerned
about growth and, and making money. I wasn't, I mean, that
was so far from my mind. I think that's, I mean, I don't know,
but I think that's one of the reasons why God has been faithful because
I wasn't going into this for money. Cause I had a job. I had a business. Um, you know, I was using
that to provide for my family. So trying to use YouTube to earn an income
wasn't even on my mind in terms of views and subscribers, I wasn't even thinking
about that because quite frankly, I was just excited to be able to have people
say, Hey, I really needed that video man. Like that was great, man. The way you explained
it makes a lot of sense. And for me, that's really what
I was focused on at the time. Um, yeah. I think that's, I think that's awesome. And it's definitely one of the things
that, uh, has made me grow in my respect for you over the years, to hear your story
and way back when, you know, I know what it's like to work a full-time job to try
and manage a handful of things and to try and figure YouTube out at the same time. It, it, it feels oftentimes like
you're working two jobs, if not more, because of all the energy
that goes into what you're doing. Yeah. Yeah, totally. I mean, it was a juggling act there for
a while, and that was one of the reason why I had to find a way to basically
go full time and to be able to dedicate all of my time, energy and attention
to this, because I knew that as long as I was given 60 or 70 hours a week to volunteering at my church and which,
you know, I think is phenomenal to do, um, by the way, but volunteering at
my church and teaching full time from 7:00 AM to 3:30PM and then leaving
the teaching job and going to tutor at four to eight in the evenings, barely
having time to spend with my family. And it was just way too much. And I was just trying to
squeeze YouTube in on the side. Yeah. Yeah, I know that for me during that
season, it felt like I was on one hand. I was giving God my best, because
it was actually were all my energy was focused, was on this problem
of solving YouTube for myself. But on the other hand, it felt like I was
giving God my leftovers in the sense that I'm committing 40 hours plus to this job. But the thing that I really feel like
God has called me to, I'm doing kind of like a few hours here and there when I'm
tired during the weekends, as opposed to like, no, this is really what I'm about. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's how I felt for the
first two or three years. I was just trying to get something out,
you know, without much of a plan and I didn't have a team, but people either,
I mean, right now God has blessed us. To have a full team, graphic designer,
video editor, and, you know, you name it several other people that are really
helping, which is freeing me up to focus on one thing, content creation. So, um, I'm just so thankful
that we're at that point now. That's awesome. That's that's huge. That'll make a big difference for sure. You, you, you used language of,
I didn't use to think about views and subscriber and channel growth. And I don't know if that was just
language or if you were actually as meaning that there was a time where
you did shift and said no, no, no, no. Time to really focus on what is the
strategy side of this like being faithful is fantastic and good, and that's always
going to be what you return home to. But at some point you've got to say,
okay, if I'm going to do this, I gotta, I gotta be strategic about it. Was there a moment for you where,
where that shift took place? I think it really started whenever
I was learning the platform, like when I started learning the YouTube
platform, what works, what doesn't work. And, you know, I have the saying
that I feel like God gave me, but in order to grow your audience,
you have to know your audience. Right? And so like for me, I came on YouTube and
it was all about me teaching the things that I wanted to do, which is great. And I still do that. And I still, when God puts something
on my heart, I don't care if I get 10 views or 10,000 views, like
I'm going to put it out there. But I started literally looking at
and focusing more on the audience and the viewer and said, okay, what
is it that my audience is really wanting and needing to hear from me. And I started switching my focus on,
okay, let me start creating content that A, is always biblical, but B,
is really practical and relevant to where people are and what they need. And when I started doing that and
started posting like twice a week, I just started seeing the growth. And even now, you know, I have to, if
I'm honest, I have to guard against that prideful thing of, "Hey, you know, I put
this video out and only got this many views and this guy over here put a video
out and it's getting like 10 times more views and his video doesn't have it. Doesn't, it's not that good" or
whatever, like that's human nature. And I have to always guard against that. Um, you know, it's just part
of, it's part of our pride that we have to really constantly. You know, that fleshed that we
have to constantly kind of kill. Sure. So, so when that flesh rises up,
like what's kind of your thought process that you go through. Yeah. So for me, it's just like going back
to those emails that I get from one person or those comments on the YouTube
channel says, wow, I was literally praying about this this morning. And then you posted this video
and it's like, going back to the whole audience of one concept is
the it's like, hey, you know what? Even if this reached only one person. Then it's worth whatever effort
and time that I put into it because somebody needed to hear this today. So if I keep that as like my
center, it just continues to motivate me to do what I do. Awesome. I know that for, I know that for every
channel that exists, the audience is different from channel to channel. And, uh, you talk about knowing your
audience and, what have you figured out about your audience specifically
over the last couple of years and, and what have they really been
looking for as far as content-wise? Well, I'll tell you what
they're not looking for is verse by verse, Bible teaching. I wish man, those are the
most fun videos to make. Oh, I know, like I know you guys
went through, was it Romans or... oh, that was, yeah! We went through the book of Romans. It was one of my favorite
series of videos I've ever done. And you know, it just doesn't
work as well as everything else. You would want it to work. Yeah. "Work." Exactly. You know, and there's,
and that's what I say. If I would ever give advice to a YouTuber
is don't, don't deny who you really are, what God's put on your heart. I think the key with YouTube is
you have to mix things up, right? So, you know, I'm still going
to do my verse by verse. I did a series through Song of
Solomon, you know, not too long ago. And I did verse by verse. I'm going to do a verse by verse
teaching soon in another direction. So you should do what God
has created you to do. But I think if you just stay in
that rut where you're like, okay, this is all I'm going to do,
because this is what I'm focused on. And your audience is basically trying to
tell you, like, okay, we're we, we need something more, something different. What my strategy is, is very simple. As I go after topics that most
Christians are really looking for. And then I use those to
bring in a new audience. And then once they come to my channel,
my hope is that they will also see, Oh, he's got a video on the book of
Romans overview, or he's got a video on, um, you know, trying to understand
the book of James or whatever it is. And that way, you know, I can bring them
in with the popular stuff, but then once they get in there, kind of grow them
up, um, you know, with, uh, the things that, you know, they really need to know. So that's kinda my, my process. I'm wondering if you ever
had, and I'm guessing... I know that you have, but I'm
wondering when was kind of like your first breakthrough video,
we can say viral or whatever. I remember for me, it was in April
of, I want to say it was 2016. Um, I did the vlog every day
in April, the Veda, you know, I remember that it's kind of like a challenge
amongst YouTubers and I was running out of content. Like, I didn't know
what else to talk about. So I just said, all right, viewers,
like, what do you want to talk about? I'll just do answers to your questions. Someone asked, "should
Christians kiss before marriage?" which is not a subject. I really care about like,
go ahead if you want to. And if you don't want to like cool,
whatever, like, it doesn't matter to me. Exactly. I made that video, you know, it was
just, uh, something I did that morning, responded, whatever, threw it up there. Next thing I find out is that
video gets hosted on a very like big international Christian blog. And now my views are skyrocketing. And like, I think my monthly views like
tripled in that month alone, um, because of that single video and it kind of blew
my mind like, Oh shoot, like, this is what,my thinking at the time, this is
what my audience really wants or needs. And I'm wondering, did you have a
moment like that for yourself where you had like, Oh, shoot, here it is. Yeah. Yeah. I think the first, if I can remember the
first really large, big video that I got a lot of traction for was, um, "The book
of revelation explained in five minutes," I think it was like, I think it was called
"How to understand the book of revelation in five minutes" or something like that. And. Now looking back, I'm like, okay, I see
how that video took off because you have this book of revelation that's filled with
all the symbolism and all this prophecy. And somebody is going to try to
explain that book in five minutes. Let me click on it and see how this
is even possible to summarize the book of revelation at five minutes. So I started learning very quickly, like. People want answers to tough questions,
but they, they want them as quickly as quick and as concise as possible
as opposed to like, Hey, I'm going to give you one hour of Revelation. Now, will I do a video? That's going to give people
one hour of Revelation? Absolutely. Because now I'm at a point
where my audience trusts me. They see me as an authority in this
area and they are willing to give me 30, 40 minutes of their time. And they're crying out for more. A lot of times they're like, Hey
Alan, can you give us more on this? But at first I realized, okay, in order
to really get my channel noticed, I have to create like smaller videos so that
my timestamps will stand out from the... okay. I can either watch Allen's video
five minutes and get a summary on a revelation or this guy's like 55 minutes. Let me try this one first. And if I don't get what I need,
let me go to the longer one. So that one just started really
blowing up and skyrocketing. That's awesome. Did you notice anything about the
kinds of people who are attracted to books about Revelation by any chance? Yes. Yes. Eyes got all big! You said, Yes. Yes. I have an idea of what kind of
people are attracted to it, but what was your experience like? But no, I mean like prophecy and end time events
and anything apocalyptic, anything I do just that niche that, that... that group or that playlist
of videos always does. Well, I don't know what it is. People are fascinated with the end of
the world, the Mark of the beast, the tribulation period, the antichrist. The millennium. Um, you name it like the rapture
and whether that's biblical or not, like they're going back and
forth in the comment section, just like arguing amongst themselves. I just put the video
out and let them talk. But yeah. I'm like, you guys can have at it. Okay. I'm not going to argue
either way, but yeah. Do you think the kinds of people that are
attracted to revelation videos on average are good representations of Christianity
or are kind of the ones you're like. Guys, can we just keep
it down a little bit? Like, how do you feel about
watching the interactions take place in the comment section? Cause I know what Christian internet
is like, and it's not always great. Well, I've been called everything from
a false teacher, you know, to a heretic, you know, simply because I believe in
a pre tribulation rapture, you know, and it's like, okay, wait, because
I'm a false cause I believe in a pre tribulation rapture, I'm a false teacher. Okay. Or because I believe in, you know, the
doctrine of eternal security of the believer, you know, that if we want
to call it "once saved, always saved," you know, people will say, you know,
they'll argue with me back and forth. I remember I did a video on, you know,
does God condone slavery in the Bible? And people came after me
because of my position on that. And you know, so I'm used to it by
now and I expect it, I embrace it. But it doesn't feel good to read
a comment when somebody is calling you a false teacher, you know,
it's like, it doesn't feel good. No, it, it, it, it never feels good
as good as not the way that I would describe it, but it is, there's a
certain entertainment value to it. I think when I take it at my best
it's it's, it's, it's, it's, it's entertaining to say the least. I remember one comment said something
to the effect of like, You are a tiny little man in, uh, in your you're
a "tiny wolf in sheep's clothing" or something along those lines. I remember you posted that. And it was, I was just laughing just
because like what, like, okay, like, Hey, you are totally like, you can have
your opinion of me and that's fine. Like it's justified. It's cool. Whatever you want to believe
about me, that's up to you. But then to go the extra step and to make. Like to take time out of your
day to write the comments out. Like to me was, I was kind of surprised,
like, wow, you really care that much, that you'd go out of your way
to degrade someone on the internet. Yeah. And then you have those group of people
that, you know, create the response videos to, you know, your video or my video,
you know, either because A, they feel strongly about it or B, they're trying
to, you know, generate and siphoned views off of your channel or your brand
or your name to their channel, you know? And so, um, you know, there's lots of
videos out there like that, but, you know, that's the beauty of YouTube. People can express how they
feel and they can review other people's content and comment on it. And, and I embrace it. I think it's fun, man. I think it's good to have those
conversations and just dialogue and for people to challenge one another. But the problem is a lot of
Christians just don't know how to do this in a respectful way. 100% That's what frustrates me so much. There's a way to disagree
and still not disrespect. Yeah. Yeah. Has there ever been a time where the
comment section and email, the DM or whatever made it past, you know, the
armor, they found the chink in the armor. And now that comment hit home in a way
that you're like, Oh shoot, like you're, you're kind of focusing on it for a
little bit longer than is maybe healthy. Yeah. I don't think so. To be honest with you, I mean, I,
you know, I don't know these people that are making the comments, um,
and, and if it's something that I feel like there is a level of
truth to it, I try to embrace it and I try to receive it and say,
okay, God, is there something that I could have done differently in terms
of, you know, how I communicate? Because I'm a very passionate person. I mean, I'm just passionate when
I communicate I'm passionate and sometimes my passion can come across
maybe arrogance or, um, abrasive. Being abrasive or not being, um,
gentle or, or whatever the word is, um, to people who've made few things
a little bit different than I do, but it's really behind all of that is just,
I'm passionate about what I believe. That's awesome. That's awesome. You talked about, um, Christians
not knowing how to agree to disagree on the internet very well. And it brings me back to some
of our earlier conversations. You and I had actually looked for
opportunities to collaborate on a number of occasions and it just never happened. And I remember getting a text from you
one day in particular saying, "Hey, I want to do a video on Seventh-day Adventism." Uh, and you kind of shared what your
original intent was with this series, which why you felt it was important. Can you kind of walk me through
where you were, where was your mind space at that specific moment? Yeah. Yeah. So my mind space at that moment was
that I felt as though the Seventh day Adventist denomination, um, Was kind of
getting a bad rap because people, you know, labeled it as a cult or wasn't
sure if they were Christians or what not. And so the very biggest thing I wanted
to do was to be able to demonstrate to the world how two brothers in Christ
can love the Lord with all of our hearts or at least try to, you know, and even
though we disagree on some very important things, That, that doesn't mean that
one is saved and one is not saved. And, but basically trying to demonstrate
to the world how to have healthy dialogue on issues that you may disagree with. And I think we both agree that there's
some things that we may not see eye to eye on from a theological perspective,
but how can we model this for the world to see that okay, you see things one way. I see things another way. But it's okay for us to be able
to respect one another and have our minds enlightened and open up. So that was always my heart, as it relates
to connecting with you specifically. What do you, what do you think those dialogues
look like and sound like? What were you kind of hoping for? Yeah, so I was kind of hoping, um,
basically to get a better understanding of what you personally, as an Adventist
or more specifically, you know, your Adventist, faith, or, you know,
denomination of what you all are taught, how do you come to your understandings
and your beliefs and why is it that two people can have the same Bible and come up with two very different
things in many situations. And so I wanted to have kind of
that, that conversation to kind of learn about what it is that you all
believe that's differently and why. There was never any thought of
trying to convert because I'm not really, you know, that's not really,
my thing is to try to convince or force or try to convert someone. I do want to speak the truth about things. And if, if somebody has
left to say, Hmm, yeah. You know, maybe I need to give
that some more thought he's got a point and vice versa. You know, I want someone to
challenge what, what I believe as well, and let me wrestle with it. So you texted me the, the evening before
saying, Hey, let's, let's collaborate. And then kind of like right after
afterwards was like, actually, nevermind. I got a different idea. What happened in that moment? There? Yeah. Um, and so I think that I felt as
though I had enough information to be able to put out a video that I
thought at the time was a proper representation of what Adventists believe. And so therefore I was like, well,
you know, I don't necessarily think I need to collaborate with, with Justin
for this particular video, because I feel like I can put out a video that
shows the similarities and differences. Um, between evangelical
Christianity and Adventism. And I was like, okay, I think
I have enough to be able to put that out without collaborating. For sure. Matt Whitman from the 10 minute
Bible hour is a good friend of mine. Uh, and he actually ended up flying out
here to hang out with myself, my pastor, or a couple of people from our church,
whatever the case is and got to host like an extended dialogue and conversation
asking questions about Adventism. And, uh, because of that friendship,
I know what happens oftentimes behind the scenes, when... you maybe operate outside
of the box that the internet Christian is comfortable with. All that to say, I know I will, I don't
know this, but I'm guessing that if your experience is like his, that you
received a lot of flack for that first video, which was, which is totally
interesting because it was shared within my kind of Adventist community. And people were like, you know what? I don't feel like Alan's
got everything right. But that was pretty fair. Like that was, you know, he was,
that seems like a good dude. I appreciated the way that he
talked about our community, but I'm guessing that that's not
what happened behind the scenes. Oh, I had a lot of different
responses to that video, which, uh, for those of you who watching I
have since taken down, which we'll get to that in a little bit later. But, um, I had a lot of
different responses to that. I had a lot of Adventists who
commented on my channel and they were like, yeah, Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Finally, somebody who, you know,
communicates what we believe and communicates, you know, um, uh,
are true, uh, you know, because they understood that, okay, you may
have like a detail here and there that might be a little bit different
than what we're we believe, but like he is including us in the body of Christ as
genuine blood bought lovers of Christ. Going to heaven. So like thank you brother,
Alan, for standing up for us and sticking up for us Adventists. And that was one response that I had
in a lot of Adventists were like using that video as kind of a proof text
to say here, like, see, "even one of your own evangelical Christians
believes that we're like legit and we're the same and everything is cool." Um, so I had that response. And then I had, you know, a lot of
Christians or evangelical Christian should I say, that we're like, yeah, man. You know, uh, that's good. Then I had former Adventists that
were like, "man, you need to go way deeper in what you presented here. Because like you're presenting
like just the tip of the iceberg of what Adventists really believe. And you're not going deeper. And because I grew up in the Adventist
faith, I can tell you that, you know, there's a lot of things that you didn't
necessarily go far enough, what you presented in your video wasn't incorrect
or so for so much maybe a detail here and there, but it was just incomplete. You didn't go far enough." And then I just had some people
they're like, "brother, you're crazy. They're a cult", you know, um,
you know, I don't, I don't care what you say in this video. Like they're not the same. Even when, as far as to compare, you know,
Adventism with, to Jehovah's witnesses and Mormons and things like that." So it was a lot of difference,
different opinions that came in there. What does that like? Cause, cause I mean, you're used to being
in the, in the spotlight for controversy, you do your videos on Revelation or
whatever, and people are always coming back and forth, but clearly this video
struck a different nerve because they're not just having conversations, but now. It's it's past the past
the phase of like, huh. Well, that's a different thing. Difference of opinion. Like this might be borderline
dangerous or like what's going on because you treated the reaction
to this video very differently than what you just described earlier. As far as know, people
respond and it's okay. They have different sets of beliefs. Like what made this one different? Well, you know, I think anytime you
are trying to represent another group of people's faith or their beliefs. It's, it's very, it's, it's kind of a
frightening thing because, you know, I did not grow up as an Adventist obviously. And so I wanted to do justice to be able
to, you know, communicate what I felt at the time was, you know, consistent
with, you know, the Adventist faith, you know, you're putting yourself out there
and it's just kind of an awkward feeling to get all these different responses. And it's like, wow, okay. How am I getting this many
different responses on this video? Uh, you know, and then that forced me to
start looking deeper and saying, okay. And this is what I was saying earlier
about how, when people challenge what you believe or what you present, you have to
be humble enough to really take a look at it and say, okay, let me not just brush
it off because this is what I've always taught and what I've always learned. Let me really take a step back
and let me think about, you know, did, did my video that I just put
out, is that really consistent? Is it complete? Is there anything further
I could have done? And that's what kind of started me on
the journey towards the next two videos. Hm. I, you and I had talked on
the phone earlier, uh, about a particular couple that stood out
kind of amongst all the noise. Can you talk to me about that? What, what was happening there? Yeah. So I got a lot of emails from people
who were former Adventists and, um, who basically came out of that denomination. And because they love me, they
follow me, they cared for me. Like they were very concerned that
I hadn't told the whole story. Hadn't painted the complete picture. Do you think they attributed
malice to that or just ignorance? No, I think it was just ignorance. I think they felt as though. Okay. He just doesn't know any better. And how could he have, because there's
probably a lot of teachings that are just so embedded and so unique to somebody
who only would really be a master at it if you grew up in it. Like for instance, I'm not a Jew. I didn't grow up in, you know,
in the Judaism, uh, faith. And so I can go research it all day,
but like somebody who grew up with that is going to know a hundred times, a
thousand times more about that faith than me who just does a Google search. So out of all the responses, for some
reason, I don't know why, because half the emails I get, I don't really open up. Um, I have a team... it's a dangerous thing to read
through all of your emails and all of your comments and DMS. It's not the best practice
for mental health. Exactly. No, it's not. And so I had, um, so many emails
fromer form Adventists and this particular couple, for whatever
reason, I decided to open up their email and read it and it turns out... this is the craziest thing. It turns out that this couple was not
only from my hometown in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, but they actually were
members of the church that I grew up in, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Bethany Baptist church. Wow! Yeah. And I was, and I got on the phone
with them and they were like, yeah, we go to, I was like, wow. I grew up in a church. So it was the coolest thing. And so basically we were on a zoom
call for two hours and they broke down things about Adventism that I would
have never really considered or never would have known one way or the other. And my mind was just
completely blown away. And so that was the point where
I said, I've now got to go back. And I have to create another
video, true to what I just learned. And it would be one thing that he
was just out there trying to bash Adventists, it's another thing when I
had not only this couple, but several other former Adventists writing me the
same things, because after I talked to them, I went back and read some of
the other emails and I was like, okay, you didn't, you don't really know. What's really being taught. I want to know what it was that they were
telling you that was new information. But before that, I'm really curious
to kind of, what was the emotions like when, you know, you're this
half a million subscriber, YouTube channel, you're doing a great job. People really trust your word. You put out this video and all of a
sudden you, you start to think, Oh shoot, I might've missed the mark here. Yes. I might have actually
maybe made a mistake even. Yes. Yeah. I mean, it was. It was, um, humbling, but yet it
was exciting at the same time. And I know that's weird. It was exciting because I got a
chance to model to the world what you do and how you should respond
when you feel you are wrong. And, and so many people, when
I , came out with my second video out of the three that I did. Or... No, that was, I think I did four, right? The initial one that I took down. I think I took the first one down
and I did three more after that. Yeah. Yeah. I did three more after that,
but basically, um, I got a chance to model for the world. Like, Hey everybody, I was wrong. I didn't do enough research. I didn't do the proper study. I'm going to try to do better next time. And I confess to you and.to show
you that I'm really contrite. I'm going to remove my first video,
which by the way, at that point, if I'm being honest, it was accumulating,
I think it was at about 170,000 views, which, you know, as a YouTube is like
some decent revenue, that's some decent YouTube ad revenue coming in there. But for me, it was so much more than
just trying to make money from a video that was starting to really go viral. It was like, I don't want any video
out there that might not be the proper representation of what I truly believe. So I took that video down. You know? Differences aside. That's definitely one of the things
that I most admire about you and how this whole thing has transpired. In fact, actually watching several
of my, my, my brothers and sisters in the Adventist denomination actually
make kind of response content to you. Wouldn't recommend going out there
and watching it if you know, like I know, ... anyways, all to say
one of the consistent themes was. They're picking apart, Oh,
he's misrepresenting this. He's quoting this out
of context over here. He's misunderstanding what's being here. But one thing I kept seeing people
return to is this idea right here, that he's going to be intellectually honest. That's something that we can respect. And we say, that's awesome. We need more of that in the world. So to me, it was, it was kind of... uh, a mixed bag of emotions in, in
which like, Oh man, like I really don't feel the second or the second,
third and fourth video represent our, our denomination fairly at all. Whereas the first one did, but at the
same time, I see where he's coming from. I understand, uh, his heart and
why he feels led to do this, like it's actually a good thing. It's it's admirable from where I sit. Yeah. Well, you had asked the question
before about like, what is it that I had learned from the, um, the other
couple that was a little bit different. And, you know, I think some of the things
that they communicated with me, they took me to the adventist.org website. They also took me to
several other websites that. They communicated to me that, um,
Adventist use on a regular basis. And I can't remember them all right now,
but like, um, you know, that basically Adventist feel like these websites
really communicate our beliefs very well. And so then they took me to these
websites and they showed me, you know, certain things that were on
these websites and certain things that were being said or whatnot, and
because they were former Adventist. So you have to understand that
they were running in faith anymore. They, their goal was to show me the
error in these statements that are, or why certain things that were being said
or stated or written on these websites was not consistent with scripture and
some of the problems with Adventism. Um, you know, they talked about the, this
idea of the "Investigative Judgment." They talked about, you know, the
respect or the authority of Ellen G. White and the place that Ellen G. White and her writings have
within the Adventist faith. You know, they talked about, you
know, the concept of the Sabbath, you know, just the whole atonement and... and salvation and how a person is saved. And do you have certainty of
your salvation and all these different things that, you know,
they brought to my attention that I did not know and aware of. What, which of those kind
of hit the hardest for you? For me, it was the... cause I already knew to some degree the
position of the, um, the Sabbath in terms of, I knew I had some understanding,
I didn't know a lot of the things that I discovered, um, in my research, but,
um, this, I had never heard of the "Investigative Judgment," never, ever
heard of that ever, until a friend of mine who I won't say his name, but is a
friend of mine who is not an Adventist. He's a very well-known pastor. And it's right after I put my video
out, he sent me a text and he said, Hey man, you know, I think you really need
to look into this a little bit further because we are now in communication
with somebody who we used to partner up with who was on our apologetics team. Then we just discovered that, you
know, she's an Adventist and, and some of her beliefs are different
than ours, significantly different. And so they had to excommunicate her
from being on their apologetics team. And yeah, I mean, not from like fellowship
or saying, she's not a Christian, but just basically saying, Hey, you know
what, we don't believe the same thing. And so therefore. We need people on our team,
as of apologists who are going to communicate the same thing. I think they still had respect for
her and all of these different things. So that exchange really along with the
others, like forced me to say, okay, and he's the one who said, you need to look
into this investigative judgment and you know, I'll, I'll refrain from what he
said, this is heresy, you know, it's, it's not biblical, you know, they got
the atonement wrong and all this stuff. And so I was like,
okay, I'll look into it. And I started looking into it,
started talking to people and, um, uh, I put, I think that was the very
first video that I talked about. What was it about, uh, your
understanding of the investigative judgment that, that felt so like,
you didn't use the word, your friend used the word, but I'll bring it up. Like it felt so heretical. Yeah. As, as I understand it, first and
foremost, it was the, the origin of how that whole doctrine even came to pass. And from what I understand, you know,
it comes from, you know, 1844 and different missed prophecies from, um,
you know, William Miller and, you know, as a result of Christ, not coming back,
um, you know, in bodily form, then from what I gather, you know, there was more
insight or revelation that was given. It's like, okay, okay. We got the date, right. In October 21st or somewhere around
there, 1844, but the event was wrong. It's like, okay, Christ, isn't coming back
physically in bodily form, but instead he's going to heaven, uh, entering it,
not going to have it, but entering into the second phase, if I can borrow language
from the, your website, you know, the second phase of his atoning ministry. And so that statement right there really
rubbed me the wrong way and bothered me because it was like, okay, if
Christ's work on the cross is complete. And even said on the cross, it is
finished, tetelestai, there isn't any more work than he needs to do to finish
his atonement, to finish his work. And I felt like the whole doctrine
is an insult to the finished work of Christ, because if Christ finished
his work on the cross or he didn't, and if he finished it, then there isn't
any more work that he needs to do to be able to, um, Finish our salvation,
if you will, or any of those types of things, um, he said it is finished. I've paid the price for their
sins past, present, and future. And so when I looked at, you know,
this idea, okay, he's in heaven and he's from what I understood and I
could be wrong, but it's like, okay, he's still, he's still doing an
investigation upon the lives of believers. And when that investigation is done,
Then there'll be a judgment made based on these individual believers' lives. And it puts us in a place where there's
no real certainty of your salvation. And it made me feel like, okay,
what are the criteria, Paul, what Jesus is judging me for? And, if he is then what was the point of
him going to the cross anyway, because if I have to still do certain things in order
to get approved from this judgment, then, am I really saved at all? Hm. Yeah. Like those are huge red flags. Like I can understand
where you're coming from. Do you, uh, did you then make a
connection from that to things like the Sabbath, for example, or... yeah. Yes. Take a deep breath. We're friends here. It's all good. Oh yeah. I know this is great, man. This is awesome. So like, You know, the, the thing that
rubs me the wrong way about the idea of the Sabbath, is I respect 100% people
who want to take a specific day of the week and honor that to the Lord. Like I get that. I understand that as a matter
of fact, I respect it and I think that it is so admirable. And I think it's something that if
I'm honest, I would love to get to the point in my life where I do that. Like, I really do. I think it's, it's so cool to be
able to say, you know what, I've got six days to work and I'm going
to work my butt off those six days, but I'm going to take a day to rest. But where I, where we deviate is the,
you know, seeing the Sabbath as a binding law, that's still in place today. And more importantly, And this is
the part that I'm struggling with. And maybe you can help me, or maybe we'll
do something on my channel where you can help me understand, but like, it's,
it's an offense when Adventist's will start to connect a person's salvation
to their obedience, to the Sabbath. And you know, when I started reading
a lot of Ellen G White's writings and different things where she would talk
about, you know, like, Salvation is the golden or means, obeying the Sabbath
is like the golden class of salvation. And, and it's what connects or unites a
believer to God, or, you know, um, if you come into understanding that you, um, you
know, that you should obey the Sabbath, but then you decide your entire life
that you do not want to obey the Sabbath. Then, you know, you're basically going
to experience fearful judgment or whatever wording that she said there. So it was almost like if you
don't know about the judgment as a believer, then you're going
to be judged like less strictly. But if, if somebody comes to you and
says, "Hey, you need to obey the Sabbath." And they show you in the scripture
that you need to, and you decide not to, then you are not saved. And that was a very offensive,
very, very offensive, because it's like, okay, I can love the Lord. I can serve him. I can be obedient to him. I can deny my flesh. I can share my faith. I can use my gifts. I can make disciples. You know, I can honor him six days
of the week, and then because of this one issue, I'm not a Christian. Right. And yeah, I really
rubbed me the wrong way. I hear where you're coming from. And, you know, like if that's how
it was presented to me, a hundred percent major issues with it, I'm
on the same page with you on that. When I hear you talk about all the
criticisms that you have of Adventism, my first response really is like,
yeah, there's a grain of truth in that. And it might even be larger than a grain. Like there's a whole bunch of
truth, in what Alan is saying. And so part of me is like, I'm really
grateful for the videos that you create because, you highlighting these, uh,
these problem areas are actually, some of the work that me and some of my closest
friends and whether they're pastors or lay people in our church are all trying to
work on saying, "Yeah, we see this too." We see the maybe heavy emphasis on work,
as opposed to the finished work of Jesus. Like we see that and we're working
towards correcting and steering this giant body of people. So I'm there with you on that, but at
the same point, It also highlights that, for every one person that is like this,
there might be several other people, but that's not how they see Adventism. That's not the way that they view their
relationship to say the Sabbath who would say, "No, no, no, Alan, I do have security
of salvation that it is a finished work, accomplished by Jesus and him alone." And so all that to say is that,
watching the videos was troubling. and comforting, all at the same time. Comforting because you're hitting on
all the things that I care about as well, that I want to see growth in
my denomination, but also troubling in the sense that, well, you're
only seeing the glass half full. I don't know. I don't even like that. Now you're seeing it from one angle
and it's not representative of the Adventism that I know, and that I love. Does that mean? Does that, does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I want to, if I can, I
want to ask you a couple of questions. So how, how, uh, two questions
I make sure I don't forget them. Um, the first question is how do
you harmonize your personal, um, positions, the theologically or
whatever, with what has traditionally been taught in Adventism? Like you hear, I'm hearing you say
quite a bit, like, "Yeah, I agree with you" or "Hey, I see your point "or,
"Hey, you know, that makes sense." or, you know, but like if I were
to meet him other Adventist on the street, they might be like,
"No, I don't hear any of you. I don't agree with you." Like, how do you harmonize being a
devout Adventist with, okay, but Ellen G. White does seem to say....this, and
we do revere her as, you know, a, an inspired, you know, messenger. And, you know, she's saying that, you
know, the Sabbath unites you to God is like golden clasp and all this. But how, how do you harmonize some of the
things that you have been taught or that, you know, your denomination believes with
maybe where you might see yourself right now as a, and I don't want to label you,
but maybe as maybe a middle moderate, maybe not an extremist or whatnot. But then the second question, so I
don't forget is, um, how do you feel like your denomination views you. Someone who seems to take a more, um,
accepting, is the word approach to faith. Um, and inclusivism maybe then maybe. Others that may be on the online space. So we won't say names, but
others that are maybe a little bit more, um, uh...aggressive. Sure, sure, sure. So how do I, uh, the first question
you're going to have to walk me back through, this is generally speaking,
how do I view my relationship to faith and like, Ellen White? Was that kind of the question? I probably shouldn't have answered,
asked to, I just knew I was going to, because I know, I know. I know. So like, how do you, how do you
harmonize like, um, you know, certain things that are seemingly like staunch,
this is what Adventists are taught to believe like, salvation is like, if
you don't keep the Sabbath, you're... you're not saved. Like you don't love the Lord, that's
just like, Adventism one-on-one, or that's the salvation one-on-one. With where you are at now,
how do you, how do you have a different perspective of that? Or do you have a different
perspective of that? How can you have a different
perspective of that as an Adventist when your denomination says this? And that's the question I've been
wondering because so many Adventists have come back to me, they're saying,
"Brother Allen, you don't get it. You didn't represent us. Well, you didn't do this. Didn't do that. You got it wrong." And I'm like, "I'm
reading from your website. I'm reading from your, you know, Ellen G. White, who you revere. And she says it right here." So that's why I was shocked. I'm like, "Where did I go wrong?" Yeah, I appreciate you
asking me the question. Um, I think you hit it on the head
when you said seemingly, teaches this. Um, and this is probably where you're,
again, this is like, I need, uh, to nod that, uh, tip of the hat, to people
who have actually been taught that. I wouldn't be surprised if some people
have actually been told in so many words or less that if you don't keep the
Sabbath, you're not going to be saved. Like I'm sure that that has happened
more than I want it to happen. And so I don't discount that person's
experience, to that person, that I would simply say, like, "I'm sorry. That person who taught you that wasn't
teaching what the Bible teaches." And here's the part that
like, to answer your question. Isn't actually teaching what
the church teaches either. Um, so I know that it happens
experientially and I'm always heartbroken over that, because it
just puts you in a terrible place. Like we were talking about no, no
assurance of salvation, no peace and joy. Like it literally takes what the
Sabbath was meant to in its, in its essence, flips it on its head,
bastardizes it, and literally accomplishes the exact opposite of what
the Sabbath was meant to accomplish. So, so all the, I mean, there's a
million ways to answer this, but I don't want, like, I don't know if it's
helpful for us to go for like a, like an actual theological discussion, but.... RIght. Cause that's not really what
I, what I, I care to do. If people want to know
about Sabbath, like cool. I'm happy to talk about it, but all that
to say, um, where it's been taught that way, I would echo: No, that's wrong. It's not good. It's not what the Bible teaches, nor
is it what actually Adventism teaches. When Adventism actually communicates
its beliefs, the Sabbath is always done in the same way that you would
do something, like it would be the way that you treat your wife. Like date night, isn't a requirement. Like this is the actual language
that the majority of Adventist's understand the Sabbath. It's yours. It's your special date with God? It's a one-week, reoccurring,
intimate time with God. In the same way that you don't
have date nights with your wife in order to stay married. From this like struggling
to achieve workspace. Like, no, you have date nights
with your wife because you love her, and because you want to foster
intimacy in your relationship. It's a gift. Date night is a gift for the two of you. That's how Adventists actually
view and teach the Sabbath. That Sabbath is a memorial of his
creative and redemptive power. And because we are saved by grace
through faith because of what Jesus has accomplished, we enter into the rest
that he has already purchased for us. Right. And obviously, like you said,
our goal is not to get into the theological stuff, which we won't. But the question that we'd have to
ask if we use that analogy is so if I marry my wife and we're, we're married
for, I don't know, 50 years and I never one time ever take her out on a date. Wouldn't that bring into question? Whether I love my wife. I mean, like, because if I
love her, I would date her. I would take her on a date. And I think that's
where the disconnect is. It's like, okay. Sometimes it can be presented as, okay. We love the Lord because
we keep this one day. But if you go your entire life
and you don't like, how can you say you love the Lord when you're
not dating him once a week? Or, and when that's the interesting part,
what about all the people that are dating him once a week, but not on that day? And so that's, that's a whole 'nother
conversation we don't have to get into today, but like I could day I
date the Lord on Wednesdays, every that's my date night with Him. Like. Why am I looked down as different
because I choose Wednesday to date the Lord and you choose Friday to Saturday? So it's just an interesting type of thing. You're, you're, you're not looked at
differently, not by the church as a whole. Will there be people in Adventism
that look at you differently and look at you as less than? Absolutely. But that's probably true of every
church, you know, because you don't speak in tongues, you know, you're,
you're not quite manifesting the gifts of the spirits or because you know,
you don't tithe as much as I do that. Like. Like, simply because you can have the
experience doesn't mean that that's what the organization is actually
putting forward in the least bit. Adventism actually has a
very open view of salvation. Perhaps maybe even more open than
some Christians are comfortable with. Like, people feel like
we're airing on this side. I think that the reality is that you
would feel that we're airing on the other side, every Adventist would,
who knows what Adventism teaches, would be very comfortable to save
someone like Alan, who, if I understand you're a, you're a Baptist, right? No, I'm Non-Denominational. I grew up Baptist though, but yeah. Every Adventist who understands
what Adventism teaches, would it be like, "Hey, as far as I can tell,
as long as Alan's living up to the light that he has, he loves the Lord. Like, boom, like he's in, if he's put
his faith in Christ, like you're safe." That's true of Catholics. That's true of Methodists. That's true of Baptists or Pentecostals. Adventists would even go a little bit
further to say, "Hey, if someone's living up to the light that they have, even if
they've never heard the name of Jesus. You know, God can choose to include them
in, in Jesus's, uh, saving work as well." Um, and, and so we understand the
passage, like there's no other way to salvation, but through Jesus in the same
way, like if you're driving up the, you know, you're going up the Pacific Coast
Highway and you say, "Hey, you know, there's only one freeway to get from
this part of the, the Island to this next part, and it's the Five-North." Even if you don't know that it's
called the Five-North, there's only one way to get there. So if you somehow make it here,
you only made it here because of that one way, that one freeway. And so we would say, we would interpret
that the way that someone has saved can only be through the work of Jesus. But the crazy part is that we would
even go further and say, even if you didn't hear his audible name,
Jesus, or yes, you will like, say, for example, someone like Abraham or
David or anyone in the old Testament who have never heard the name, Jesus. If they make it to heaven, it's
not because they kept the old covenant really well, because
record would show they didn't. Right. If they make it to the kingdom,
it's because of what Jesus had done on their behalf. And so we actually have a much more open
view of Salvation than is oftentimes represented in social media or blogs
or, in unfortunate interactions. Well I didn't mean to take
the conversation and steer it in a direction of theolog. But like I said, maybe, maybe we'll
have that different, a little bit of a different conversation whenever we do
something on my channel, not an argument or anything, but just maybe, maybe I'll
be asking questions where I'm trying to get more understanding about things. And I think that will be very helpful
for me and maybe my viewers as well. Let, let, let me ask you,
like knowing that that's. Yeah. Like the, the relationship that
we actually view the Sabbath with, does that change at all? Or how does that change, uh,
your understanding or your perspective of Adventists? If it's, we keep the Sabbath and we must
keep the Sabbath to be saved and anyone who doesn't as lost versus like, no, like
this is just a gift that God gives us and we want to take the best advantage of it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's two
totally different perspectives. Because one is more inward looking like,
okay, I'm going to take, take this as a time to really build myself up and
edify my relationship with the Lord. And I'm focused on that. But the other is like more of a
self-righteous, judgemental type of position where it's like, "Hey, you
know, um, those who don't do things the way I do it, or don't see things the
way I do or don't date God once a week. Don't love the Lord as much as
I do or to go as far as they do. You're not even saved." I think those are two very,
very different approaches. And so, because I understood the latter
approach to be the dominant approach, which is, "Hey, you don't love the Lord. And more importantly, you're
living in disobedience." And that's the thing that I just
still struggle to reconcile is, you know, as a, as an Adventist, how can
you believe so strongly about the Sabbath, but then also not believe
that people who don't follow the Sabbath are not living in disobedience. Like that's the part that I'm hard, yeah. I mean, like, I mean, like, I would think
that an Adventist would say, "Because I've shared with you scriptures about
the Sabbath in my position, and you still decide not to, you're, you are
living in blatant and total disobedient." Similar to if I was living in the
LGBT, or I was shacking up with somebody before, like I know I'm
not supposed to shack up, but I am. I know I'm not supposed to be
homosexual, but I'm choosing to be, like, I feel like I'll be,
I'm being placed in that category. Because of that issue. And if I am, then that's very
uncomfortable category to be placed. If I'm not. Then I respect, uh, and I think it's
admirable to take a day of the week and spend time and date the Lord. I think it's awesome. Definitely. See nothing wrong with it. Yeah. I mean, that's how the church teaches it. I mean, like, it's not how
everyperson in the church teaches it. Like there are people, like I said,
I, I always like, if I'm doing this ad nauseum, I apologize, but like, I always
want to respect a person's experience. I know that I have been on the other
side of the coin where I have been the legalistic, self-righteous,
like, proud individual who believes that I'm actually doing something
to accomplish security with God. Like, I know what that's like, and
I, and because I know what it's like, I don't want to ever like
discount someone's experience. Having run into someone like that. But the reality is, is that's
not the church's stance. The church is very clear that Salvation
is only through faith in Christ, through his works, not our own. Then anything that we do is kind of
something that we tack on afterwards as a thank you as like just our
pursuits of, of intimacy with God. It's the same way that we
would look at Bible study. Bible study doesn't save you. Like, if you study one hour, versus two
hours a day, you're not half as saved. Like no one would ever say that. But why do we study the Bible? We studied the Bible because of
the revelation of Jesus Christ. Like, hey, because he's done
this, like, let's learn more about what is our inheritance? What is our gifting presently? What is our mission and our calling
and how can we best live out the Gospel towards other people? Like, that's why we started the Bible. That's why we'd, theoretically, give
monies or serve in missions, or why we would do any of the other things that
Christians do . It's because of gratitude. It's because of what Jesus has done. Therefore, hey, we want to live
out our lives in a transformed way. Yeah. And you know, and if that is the, the
prevailing belief and practice and mindset, then, that's what I initially
presented in my first video, which was, "Hey, you know, th the Paul says, let
each, you know, some people see one day as being more sacred than another others. See, you know, um, every day as
a, like, Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind." You know? And you know, in, in my mind I
was like, "Hey, you know what? Yeah, this group, they believe
that, you know, they want to take that one day of the week. And that one day has to be
sundown Friday sundown, Saturday. Okay. I respect that. I all, you know, all power to you." You know, but then there's another
group that doesn't, and my goal was to like, "Hey, let's not pass judgment on
one another to respect one another." Um, because I feel like, our love for
the Lord can be expressed and should be expressed in a plethora of ways
and not just so singular focused. Um, you know, the
observance of the Sabbath. It's like, okay, I'm treating people
well, and I'm giving, I'm serving, you know, I'm loving my wife. Um, I'm confessing my sin. Like there's so many ways that we
can express our love for the Lord. Absolutely. Yeah. I would agree with you on that. You had a second question. Yeah. So the second question I had was,
you know, because you are or seem to come across as more of a moderate,
and not necessarily an extremist in the Adventist faith, does your
denomination in any way know, maybe see you any differently because you're
not like telling people, you know, that they have to obey the Sabbath
or, you know, kind of what does that, what does that relationship look like? So I think your question actually
lands on one of the complexities to me, beautiful complexities about
Adventism, and that's the incredibly diverse nature of our denomination. That's true both politically, there
are people who fall far left far, or maybe not far left, who are on
the left, who are on the right. People who, uh, believe different things
when it comes to theology, who would be more theologically conservative ,or
theologically progressive, or liberal, or moderate or whatever the language is. And this is kind of one of the
best things about Adventism. Um, uh, a friend of mine, a pastor
within Adventism describes Adventists as Adventism, as a large tent with a
lot of different people underneath it. And I think that that's a good thing
that that diversity lends to creativity. It lends to an outside of
the box type of a thinking. And, uh, so, you know, there are
absolutely people within Adventism who might watch this exact video and say, "No,
no, no, Justin, you don't represent us. Like that's not Adventism as
I've heard it or I've taught it." It's like, okay, "That
that's probably true." Um, and then there will be many
other people would say, "You know what Justin is communicating,
at least in spirit is exactly on for what Adventism means to me." Um, and you know, for what it's
worth, I am viewed within Adventism as, uh, very well accepted. I do speak on behalf of our denomination. Um, at important key meetings
within the denomination for leadership and things like that. I do hold positions where I
represent, uh, various, um, subsections of the constituency. And so I have very strong
relationships with administration and leadership in our church. Um, I also do also do a lot of, kind
of like contract work and advising consultation for, for people in the
denomination, especially when it comes to like social media and things like that. And so. I I'd like to say that for what it's
worth, I do represent a good, healthy chunk of, of the Adventist denomination. And I guess this kind of brings up
the question, and something that I'd, I'd love to kind of toss back to you. Um, and it, and it's really just
like, who do you, like, how do you decide who represents Adventism well? Because, from what our conversations
I've been over the last several years, I get the sense that you and I are
very much on the same page, as far as what matters and what you know is
maybe important, but isn't central. Um, but then also, you know, you had this
experience with ex-Adventists and people who are very critical of the church. And I'm just wondering how for
you, you put weights into one person's perspective or story or
experience versus the other person's. Y Yeah. So, you know, I like to, you know,
get a variety of people's experiences because I do understand that just like
in Evangelical Christianity, there's, I mean, if you could talk to people
and you got some people that say, you know, "You have to speak in tongues
in order to love the Lord, you have to pick in tongues in order to be saved. You have to be speaking tongues
to demonstrate that you have the gift of the Holy Spirit. And you have to be saved only
by calling on the name of Jesus versus Father, Son, Holy spirit. And you have to be baptized by
immersion and not sprinkling." And I mean, there's a million different,
you know, you could talk to people and it's not just okay, one dimensional. So, you know, I try to, you know, look
at people's hearts and say, okay, um, you know, this one particular member
of Adventism, or of the Adventist faith doesn't necessarily always represent
the, the, um, the entire denomination, any more than any, I would want any
one Christian to be the spokesperson for, you know, or one Baptist or one
denom non-denominational, or I'm not a charismatic or Pentecostal, but I would
assume that they wouldn't want, you know, one per member of their denomination
to represent, you know, all of them and just, we're flawed individuals. And sometimes we don't always speak, um,
you know, um, with perfect accuracy or we make our flesh to get the best of us. So, you know, I just take
things on a case by case basis. Uh, you know, and which is the reason
why with my videos, I tried my best to not necessarily focus on any
individual conversation I've had with one or two Adventists, because I knew
beforehand that would get me into trouble, but it was more so, okay, how can I now go to the source and
as best I can look at the website. And then look at, you know,
some of the writings of Ellen G. White, which I know, you know, who I know
is very well-respected and your faith, and look at those and say, okay, how
can I harmonize these things with what I believe the scriptures are saying? Yeah. And, and I admire that desire to be as
neutral and objective as you possibly can. Um, and I know that that, that,
the videos that you've created are your best attempt at doing that. Um, and with that being true, if I
can maybe wear my heart on the sleeve a little bit, um, that's, that's not
how it felt, watching the videos. Um, you certainly highlighted
an experience within Adventism. Uh, unfortunately much more
numerous than I, I would ever hope. Um, you have found the very vocal
minority of people who have been really hurt by the denomination. I don't want to ever downplay that. Um, but it is a very small subsection. And so, to kind of like, like even
just the title of your video, I was wrong, wrong, wrong about Seventh-day
Adventism, like, okay, cool, you could be wrong, but like between you and me,
I know kind of what's happening also behind the scenes with the planning
of the SEO of the video and the thinking of titles that are clickable. And yeah, it felt, not from like
the, like the theology side, like I'm happy to agree to disagree with you. But as a friend, I felt honestly,
somewhat betrayed that, um, that you would sensationalize the conversation to that
level, if I can be completely transparent. I felt kind of betrayed as someone
who holds you in highest seem as a friend that, you know, you wouldn't
even just pick up the phone and say, "Hey, this is what I'm hearing. Am I reading this right? Am I spinning... like the way that I'm interpreting
some of these words is this correct?" Because I think if you were to talk to
any other type of Adventist, they would say, "Oh no, no, you're, you're misreading
the intention of these statements. Like you're actually interpreting
them, uh, in the worst light possible." And as I'm watching through the video,
it felt like you were....it felt like you were attributing a malice to the
denomination as a whole with saying things like, "Oh, they're specifically
trained to hide parts of their theology." For example, like if that were true,
then we wouldn't have our entire belief system on the internet for, in
public view for everyone to see, like. And so it felt, it felt like you had
made the transition from, "Hey, this is my friend who we agree to disagree to. Oh, this is now Alan Parr. This is the host of the beat doing a
sensationalist approach to a controversial topic because it'll get clicks and views. And maybe because he's maybe
retreating a bit because the public backlash of the first vide." I know that's a whole lot that
it's my interpretation of this. I know that that's not your
heart, but I just want to say that's how it came across. And that's how it felt, being on
the other side of this equation. Yeah, and, and I can easily,
I can definitely understand how it came across that way. And let me also just say publicly, you
know, to you and to anyone else who may watch this video that you are right. You know, I should have reached out to you
specifically and personally, um, you know, because we are friends and I do value
our friendship to say, "Hey Justin, look, man, you know, look, I put out a video. Um, this is what I thought, you
know, but now I'm, um, reading different things in that nature. You know, what are your
thoughts, you know, on, um, this? Help me understand what
you all's position is?" And for that, I do apologize, you
know, and ask for forgiveness in that regard, because I should have done that. You know, I, I just felt as though, you
know, the people that I spoke with, they weren't hurt by the denomination at all. Um, they, they just basically came to
a different understanding of Scripture and different understanding of how
they interpreted, um, the Scriptures based on what they were reared to
believe, but there was no malice or any sort of negative, you know, hurt
or church hurt or any of those things. And so, you know, I trusted
that they would give me a proper understanding, considering that
they were in it for so long. I was like, "Okay, they're not necessarily
with having, they don't have an agenda to get back at the denomination as much as it
is to help me understand, you know, Hey, this isn't necessarily what, um, you know,
what your understanding is not the same." And then also, there was a part of me,
and once again, this is me admitting that I probably could have gone a different
route, but there was a part of me that, it just seemed like so many of the statements
that I read, particularly from Ellen G. White, it just seemed like there was
no ambiguity and that's the part that's just so hard for me to understand
is, you know, whenever somebody says, you know, "Observance of the Sabbath,
is the golden clasp of Salvation. Or, "Observance of the Sabbath is
what unites a believer to God." It's hard for me to read that and think
that there's another understanding of that or interpretation of that. Like. It says it right there. She says that. Right. So I would think an Adventist would have
to either say a, she didn't mean that. Which how would we know? Because we haven't talked to, or B, yes,
she means that, but I, as an Adventist, don't necessarily agree with Ellen G. White. But then I don't know where that would
put an Adventist in light of, at, you know, I don't know where that would. Yeah. I don't know how that would
fly if you say, "Yeah. I don't quite agree with a
lot of her teachings and their prophecies and things like that." So to me, it just felt like these are
statements, for instance, you know, and I've read her statement about, you know,
whenever you do evangelize someone, you know, Don't lead with, "Hey, you
know, I'm a Seventh-day Adventist and I observed the Sabbath," but like find
common ground to talk to the person, you know, about, and then look for an
opportunity later to share the truth about, you know, and she'll get this
person to be brought into the light. Like I'm reading these things and
I'm like, it just seems like, it's clear, so, where am I going wrong? Yeah. I only hear where you're coming from and I
don't think it's necessarily unreasonable to look at it that way, but it is only
one way to view what you're reading and it is the most cynical view of what you're
reading and it's okay, if you take the cynical route, I'm not like knocking it. Um, but like the same criticisms
that you give of these writings and like my, my job isn't to give
you a point by point Def like. Uh, defense of everything that you says,
but the same, the same type of objection that you're giving about her writings,
you could easily say about many parts of the scripture, where it talks about the
importance of, you know, for example, um, giving to the poor, like there's,
there's things about like, oh, if you, if you're a kid, you know, disrespects
your parents, stone him to death. It's like you could find easily if
you go to any ex-Christian, you go to any atheist website that's, uh, that,
uh, that claims to be, you know, a, an unbiased source saying, "Hey, I'm
just showing you what the text says, they'll point to you, a hundred things
in the scriptures itself that, when taking within just the snapshot with no
context, make the Bible look really bad. That makes God look really bad. And as Bible scholar, you know,
that it's just unfair to take one or two sentences out of context,
and then to superimpose that over everything else in the scriptures. And I guess that's why for me, I
felt like it was, borderline reckless or irresponsible for you to do the
same thing to another kind of like a religious writing, um, to say, because
of this one sentence and the way that you choose to interpret it, it
now colors an entire, like multiple millions of people all across the world. It seems really foolhardy. It seems really rushed when all
you could have done is just be like, "Hey, I see this here. Am I reading this wrong? Is there another way to look at this?" And any Adventist who knows what
they're talking about could have been like, "Oh no, no, no, no. That's not what it means at all. It actually means this other thing." That's why it felt like, Oh man,
I wish we would've just called. Like, it's okay that we agree to disagree. It's okay that at the end of the day,
you know, we choose to worship on different days or even worship together
on, you know, variety is like at the end of your video, like come worship
with me, like, yeah, absolutely. I go to a Sunday church here, or I
used to because of COVID, but we'd go on like every Sunday to the church in
the, in Portland, John Mark Comer's church, who actually is a Sabbath keeper. Um, and, and we'd have people
coming to our churches. So there's, there's no walls
here that are, that are erected. That's all I'm trying to
say is that, it felt rushed. It felt half-baked and it, and it makes me
feel good to know that you recognize that and that's, you know, you even apologize. So that's, so it keeps me secured
in knowing that, "Hey, the Alan that I know he's a good dude. He assumes the best in people. That's truly who he is." To hear that, um, to hear your
heart behind the entire thing, reaffirms that that's who you are. Yeah. And like I said, you know, I have
a nephew, you know, and I, I, you know, who's really deep into the
denomination and like, was like, you two are the main two people that I
thought of with each video that I put out and I was like, okay, how are they? I mean, God forbid, you know, my
nephew I've known him for 25 years. No, I mean, I, I, I saw
him whenever he was born. Right. Like, so like, I don't want to lose
his respect or his love or however our relationship changed in any way. But I just, it was just certain things
that I was just like, I just can't seem to reconcile these things, you know? Um, and, um, and then I have had some
conversations, not necessarily with you, but with other current Adventists
and, some of their conversations... I get you there. Like I said, we all got the weird uncle. We got the weird aunt out there. Like, I'm sure you're going
to find it, those people. And to anyone watching,
you will meet those people. If you, if you go down the rabbit hole,
but this is like, again, it's kind of back to those foundational questions. Like how do we weigh who represents who? Right. This is, I guess, kind of where the heart
of what it is all about to cast, like because of one particular experience, you
cast shade on an entire group of people. That's where it just feels off. And like, I feel like maybe, Alan,
you could have done a better job with your video, just simply saying,
you know what, "Hey if this is what this is teaching, no, but maybe this
isn't what Adventist is teaching. And maybe there's other people here..." and maybe bringing people into the
conversation rather than just being like the spokesperson or leader. I don't know. I'm not trying to be like, I'm not
trying to presume that I teach you what you're supposed to do, but... No, no, I, and I understand that and,
and I'm still learning, you know, in terms of, you know, what is the
best way to communicate when I may disagree, you know, with certain things. Um, you know, what is the best
way to communicate that, um, in a way that's respectful. Um, and, uh, you know, it's funny as
much as I try to do that on camera and be respectful and be it's like, I, I still
get passionate about certain things. And, um, you know, particularly,
like I said earlier, we talked about the investigative judgment, like,
part of me is like, "Hey, this is a insult to the work of Christ." Like ,"This is saying that he did
not finish his work on the cross and he has more work to do in Heaven." And to me that just, if, if that is
what that doctrine is teaching, I still stand up behind like that, that
really, that really just, you know, um, I guess it impassioned or if
you're, if you're because it's like, that's my Savior, you know, like, yeah. In so much that the investigative
judgment or fill in the blank, any other teaching or any other doctrine that's out
there is used in such a way to instill fear instead of compassion and love
to, to, to sew insecurity rather than knowing that you are actually secure
with God, like, like, right after the tail end of that, that part of your
video, you quoted Romans 8, which is a beautiful part of Paul's writings. That "There's no condemnation for
those who are in Christ Jesus." To the extent that anyone teaches anything
that undermines the fact that there is no condemnation now, presently that we
don't got to work our way to heaven? Like I'm with you on that. I get frustrated. I get upset. I get infuriated about
that because you're right. It undermines what Jesus has done. And so I'm on the same page with you
as that it, it just happens to be that I think that if you were to understand
this and the investigative judgment, the language around that is really terrible
language, the branding of that needs to really be changed in my opinion. But I think if you were to
understand what does teach it actually communicates the opposite. It actually does communicate security. It actually does communicate
a finished work of Jesus. And so, not that, again, this
isn't a theology debate, but like I'm there with you on that. I hear you on that for sure. Well, I would love to offline have some
more conversation with you so you can help me understand better about some of
these doctrines that I'm clearly maybe not fully embracing or understanding
what is the spirit behind it. Because I do typically take things,
you know, on a face value, you know, and I'm like, "Hey, if this
is what it says," you know, if it's, if it can be ambiguous, ambiguous? Then, um, I try to be very careful,
but then other things I'm like, well, how, how could this possibly
be explained in a different way? You know, like when it says this
or says that, or, you know, when it says that, you know, if someone has. Been given the light of the importance
of the Sabbath, you know, and they've been exposed to the truth of it, and
then they choose to reject it, then, you know, I don't remember the exact
verbiage, but it's like, you know, that person is either received the Mark of
the beast or they're not going to be saved, something along those lines. So in my mind, I'm reading the context,
I'm reading it and I'm like, "Wow. That's pretty strong statement", you know,
and, and just like, I'll say this too, just like you have every right to have
taken offense to some of the things that I have presented in my videos, which I,
like I said, you know, I apologize, cause it wasn't meant for that, but there's
also a side of me, where I am beginning offended as well by reading certain things
that seem to insinuate that I'm not saved. And my mom is not saved. My grandparents aren't saved. Then everybody in my family and
friends are not saved because, you know, we don't observe the Sabbath. And it just, it felt like when I
was reading those things and from talking to some people that, uh,
they view me as not being saved. And that, that was the hard
part to, to accept as well. I , I I'm there with you and, I think,
I think my church, my denomination has a lot of growing to do in how
we communicate what we believe. Um, I think that what
you just articulated. Uh, is representative of a good number
of people who interact with Adventists, uh, teachings and leave like, "Whoa!" Like feeling very, I don't even
know if violated is the right word. Just like, yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know that that's, that's the case
for a lot of people, and, like being a part of this church, growing,
like my, my great-grandfather, uh, was, uh, uh, Was a Seventh-day
Adventist pastor in the Philippines. Now that might not mean a lot, but for
a church that was, you know, started in the mid 18 hundreds to be, you
know, third, fourth, fifth generation Adventist is kind of a big thing. It means that you're tracing
your lineage pretty far back within the church's history. Um, my great-grandfather
was a pastor in the church. I grew up in was kind of reared in
Adventist schools, uh, you know, my mom's a teacher at an Adventist Academy. Like this is my people, this is my family. This is my community. And, um, in the same way
that every family has its own dysfunctions, it has its own quirks. Uh, but you love them even still. But that's how I feel about this church. There are things that need growth
and I'll be the first one to say it, uh, there are things that we need to
improve on and for what it's worth, I'm, I'm doing what I can from the
inside to be a part of that change. And I know that there's many
people who are part of the church who feel similarly as well. Um, so I guess that, that's
why I appreciated your videos. So like I said, there's, it was a mixed
review, but, or a mixed emotion for me. Rightfully so. Also very grateful for it because
it highlights where we need to grow and where we need to improve. Yeah. Well, and likewise, I appreciate your
feedback on the videos because it's a, it's a reminder for me, every time I
put out another video to just do a check and to really, you know, make sure that
I have my facts in place, and that I'm doing it in a way that's respectful,
but yet truthful to what I believe. Y Yeah, absolutely. And to that, to that end,
man, I, I support you and I'm cheering you on all the way. I mean, I've been so
subscriber for years now. Uh, very encouraged by what you do. Uh, definitely consider you someone,
uh, worth emulating in many respects, someone that I value as, as a friend,
uh, and as a colleague for sure. And likewise, you know, I mean, I, uh,
been subscriber, you know, since the, "That Christian Vlogger" days, which
I know has, has now, uh, uh, passed on, to use a better word, but I am.. I'm killing the branding of it. I use that language. So it's all right. Not going to lie. I do miss "That Christian Vlogger". I like what you're doing now. I do, and I love it. I love both of them, but I do
miss "That Christian Vlogger". I think, I think you have so much to
offer the body of, of Christ, um, with your, the clarity by which you were, you
know, presenting advice, dating advice, relationship, advice, you know, questions
that people have about Christianity. You know, I think you were doing
a great job with that, but I understand that God's taking you
in a different direction as well. So, um, just know that I'm, I'm cheering
you on man, and I, I love what you're doing, and, I love most importantly that,
you know, we can see things differently, but I can say publicly to you and to
everybody watching this video, there's two words that I never, there's two
things that I never did in my videos. And people can go back and look at them. Number one, I never once
called Adventism a cult,. Never once. Never once did I say this is a
cult, you need to stay away from it. Um, I presented what I believe were
some fallacies or things that I didn't feel like were scripturally
based, never did go there. And number two, I never said that
members or any particular member in the denomination was not a Christian. Wasn't going to go to heaven. Didn't love the Lord. I'm very, very careful not to do
those things because at the end of the day, it's really all about your
relationship with Christ and you know, that's not my place to necessarily. You know, judge someone's Christianity
any more than if it was somebody who was an advent, Evangelical
Christian, it's just not my place. So, um, hopefully you felt that from
a personal perspective that I'm not, I'm not here to judge your Salvation,
uh, and nor do I think, um, I put it this way: I would make the same video
about, um, people who are in the Word of Faith or prosperity theology camp. Which is in, which is a sect of the
Evangelical Christianity, but I wouldn't say they were a cult, and I definitely
wouldn't say they aren't going to go to Heaven, they don't love the Lord. I just think, that if they believe
that you have to be healthy and wealthy in order to be a
Christian, I think that's off. Um, and, and, you know, so
I, to make sure you knew that I appreciate that. Thank you, Allen. Guys, if you haven't already, go subscribe
over to Allen Parr at "The Beat", he's doing Bible teaching really awesome stuff. I've been a subscriber for years, and
I think that you will be blessed if you consider giving him a follow as well. Uh, we might not agree, agree on
everything, but, you still got some good stuff and I appreciate its
context and I think you will too. If you've made it this far into
the interview first off, wow! Thank you so much for
indulging in our conversation. You are amazing. And two, there's a couple of things that
you specifically would be interested in. The first is actually the timing of this
conversation with Allen was so perfect. I couldn't have planned for a better
time for it all to take place. And here's what I mean by that. During the craziness that was 2020, my
good friend, Caleb and I were actually at work to create our very first documentary. That's right. Who would've thought, but me,
shooting an actual documentary. Caleb runs a page called "Humans of
Adventism", which features the life stories of, you guessed it, humans within
the Seventh-day Adventist denomination, it's unintentionally non-theological
approach to storytelling that I've actually absolutely fallen in love with. Caleb and I flew around the country
doing our best to honor COVID-19 safety protocols and interviewed
nearly 50 people to create a ten part docu-series that will actually air on
this YouTube channel January 27th, 2021. So all that to say that if you've
actually had your curiosity peaked when it comes to Adventism, be sure
to subscribe and turn on the bell notification, so you'll be the first to
be notified when the documentary drops. For those who do care, there's an entire
episode featuring myself, my mom, and my grandpa, and I'm really proud of. Secondly, this entire conversation
with Allen was in actuality, several more hours long than the 90 minute
version that you just watched. Not only was the uncut interview,
actually 30 minutes longer, but after the interview officially ended, we
kept chatting for several more hours. Now this is actually standard practice
with every single guest that I bring onto the channel, and the good news is that if
you'd like to dive deeper into any of the subjects that we cover, this one or other
ones in the past, I have something like over 25 exclusive pieces of video content
available now at patreon.com/jkhoe. In fact, remember Caleb,
the guy I mentioned having done the documentary with? He, and I do an unfiltered breakdown of
every guest from this show on another show called the "Super Secret Podcas". So if you would like insights to the
parts of the interviews that were cut out, the thinking and how we crafted every
story of every interview, what it was like getting to know our guests behind
the scenes, as well as my unfiltered thoughts about every single episode, the good news is you can actually
follow along that entire journey by becoming a patron at patreon.com/jkhoe.
