Calvinism Vs. Arminianism Debate (Rev. Angus Stewart and Rev. Timothy Ramsay)

sponsored by the revelation foundation charity who knew the viewer generously supports please continue to do so and if you don't support us now why not start today god bless you paroled in focus tonight we have two two great guys in the studio one in the red corner and the other in the blue corner but I got Reverend Angus T word of the Covenant Protestant Reformed Church all the way from Ireland is the island of Northern Ireland Northern and Northern Ireland he's going to be taking a totally different view tonight if in fact tonight's program is kosher we call it a discussion or a debate or between two camps we have what we call the Calvinists and then also the emini ins well the two of them are the scholars in those two territories and they will explain to us what the carven is is all about and what their Armenians stand for I'm just in the middle to make sure like I said to them before the program started when I say break you break oh well with with us in the studio our Reverend Angus T worth of Covenant Protestant Reformed Church in Northern Ireland and he's going to be presenting the Calvinist view and with him is pastor Timothy Ramsey great man of God we've had in here before to talk about balance prosperity and he defended his corner nice and well the other night he's from worth of Word of Faith International Christian Center good evening and welcome to the program gentlemen god bless you sir you just take off immediately I'll start with You Reverend Angus what what does Calvinism mean Calvinism means that God the Lord of Heaven and Earth is absolutely sovereign over all things good and evil in heaven and on earth and more especially Calvinism means with respect to salvation that God chooses and elect people in Christ Christ comes in time and bears their sins on the cross so that by his marvelous grace totally depraved and helpless sinners without any free will are brought me willing into the kingdom of God and kept by God's grace because whom he did predestinate them he also called and whom he called them he also justified and whom he justified them he also glorified Romans 8 verse 30 so whether the word Tarvin ism come from the word Calvinism comes from John Calvin the great reformer in the sixteenth century and the five points of Calvinism total depravity unconditional election limited atonement irresistible grace the perseverance of the saints don't worry if you can't understand where it's first time around the five points were drafted by the most international assembly of reformed Christians the Synod of dort in 1618 6090 in the Netherlands people from Ireland Scotland England Wheelz the Netherlands on which night would be Belgium - the French weren't allowed to come because the King of France didn't allow them to come to the Swiss some Germans and from that has spared the Calvinistic churches on all six continents of the world Reverend Ramsey you are here to talk mostly from the sort of Armenian side what where does the word Armenian come from okay the word Armenian comes from a fella called Jacobus Arminius he also lived in there around the same time in hundreds of Calvin and the great Reformation Age and he basically taught or came to a point of view that the points and the sovereignty teachings of Calvinism perhaps when are over to a point where it totally ruled out the free will of human beings of man created by God to be a free moral agent so he created well his followers after him the remonstrants they are had a they created five opposite points in connection with Calvinism and it consisted of free will or conditional election Universal atonement and that even to the point that something spoke about the fact that salvation was not it eternal it could be lost then I do want to say I consider myself a Christian first I believer a child of God first but my school of thought in my my particular theology more lines up with our minion isms and Calvinism although I believe there are merits in both of them the interesting thing to master the emails are beginning to come in which indicates some guys have very strong views how do you know what you can carry on sending the emails in because we're going to go through them because tonight I believe a lot of it will be educated by what we're about to learn here and them you know I went I researched I went through some of the points on on both sides but then I wanted to start from you from the Calvinist point of view talking about the sovereignty of God and the fact that they believe they believe more in the in the fact that man that this is the sovereignty of God and then also the has not become about grace talking about the grace of God you know this the sava salvation is of grace yeah what do you mean by that salvation by grace means that from eternity past to eternity future and everything in between it's all of the unmerited favor and free love of God for his people Greece is an attitude of God whereby he pities his elect in Christ and it's also a power whereby he sends his son to the cross to die for our sakes and that son suffers the hell which we endured in our place and then that power reaches into our hearts renews us so that we can believe and love God and keeps us efficaciously to the and this is the god of psalm 115 verse 3 our God is in the heavens he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased and this is how you recognize the true God he's in heaven he's not earthly he's glorious he does everything that he pleases and if he pleases he does it and if he isn't pleased to do it he doesn't do it absolutely sovereign over everything and that's why the child of God kind of great comfort that he's not going to be lost that the love of God is inseparable and Christ is king you know when we look in the Bible like in the Book of Leviticus God spoke to the children of Israel he said they should decide today on whose side they're going to be on yeah he said they should pick other blessings or curses if you obey me and you follow my Commandments and you do all that is right this this blessings will follow you if you go the other way and do all the wrong things these curses will come over you but at the end of the day he says the choice is theirs mmm so if God the human being the choice so where does the sovereignty of God come into the equation to switch things around good point God is king and God commands men he tells us do good believe in my son and he says avoid evil and in the way of believing and following Christ is great blessing and in the way of disobedience as all sorts of wrath and eternal destruction God says choose God says believe repent turn come on to Christ and all these things teach us that that is what we must do they do not teach us that this is what every fallen sinful man has the power of himself to do because no man can come unto Christ except the Father which has sent him draw him and Romans 3 says there is none that seeketh after God the natural man is not subject to the law of God neither D can be Romans 8 and John 3 Jesus says that man loves darkness rather than light and therefore he won't come to the light and then the only people who actually do Oh God says because we're sinners is those whose God graciously renews and makes willing in the day of his power Psalm 110 verse 4 Reverend Ramsey yes sir what points do people on the other side of the fence like yourself what point do you have that actually expose the weaknesses of Calvinism okay I suppose we could start in the beginning of creation and look at God's creation of the first man first woman and we can certainly gain an understanding that right from the very beginning God pronounced the commandment he told them what they should do yet they had the choice to choose a right decision or choose a wrong decision and I would say in connection with God's sovereignty the ability of men to choose doesn't negate the fact that God is king and that God is ruler in fact are some of the dangers that we can get into when we talk about the total sovereignty of God is that if God is in control of everything and commands everything then we can get into an instance where we could step into a theology where we believe that God controls the evil of men and even commands the evil of men and we certainly know that's not the case yes we do believe that all have fallen short of the glory of God Romans chapter 3 verse 23 or every man has sinned and it is inherent in our nature to sin before the love of God touched our hearts or however by the by the very virtue of of us being inherently sinful that doesn't necessarily mean that we can't make a good choice or a right choice what it does mean is that there is nothing that men can do to justify himself or to make himself righteous before God amen and I I believe when it talks about the drawing of God I believe yes God absolutely has to draw man for him to be saved we see just referred that he would be lifted up as the son of man and draw all men to him or so I certainly believe that but I also believe that there is a decision that man has to make in response to that drawing and it's evident throughout Scripture that man has the ability to refuse that drawer to say no to that drawer and thus render upon himself the rough and judgment of God god bless you sir but you know I I think you know I stand up for what you just shared because you know I'm talking from a personal experience and from seeing when I in my Christian grows I've seen God in different dimensions but a very simple example when God says he would draw men unto himself what I see from that is that God looks at the state of your heart he sees a yearning because I was a Muslim and as a Muslim I was busy searching for God in all the different religions and I got to a point where I saw that all the places I went were the wrong places so I now sat down because I was talking to God in my mind my heart I said God I've searched for you everywhere I can't find you I said so I'll just be a good person and hope everything is okay when I finally die and come face to face with you but then he knowing my heart I arranged on a particular day to get me into a church are you it was an intention it was it was done in a very subtle way by God I ended up in the church and finally gave my life to Christ and I've seen that situation with so many people just like Cornelius in the Bible he prayed to a god he didn't even know he gave arms he did all the right things but God knew that if this guy knows the true God he will connect and that's what I see by drawing not like say well even if it by a guy is a bad guy he doesn't care about God go to draw him so what you have to say about that Reverend Angus draw that's a very good biblical word it's mentioned in John 6 verse 44 no mom can come on to me doing to my new man is able to come on to me the Father which has sent me draw him and I will raise him up at the last day and the difference with draw regard is you know I believe the drawing must be all of God 100% whereas the other view is that God draws and in mando's maybe we bet at the end with his own freewill etc well the word draw is used of the net of fish which is drawn or dragged up onto the beach in John 21 verse 11 in acts 16 verse 19 Paul and Silas are drawn into the marketplace Emily Paul's drawn out of the temple acts 21 verse 30 James 2 verse 6 the rich draw or drag you before the judgment seats that is an irresistible unstoppable forceful power but of course when God draws human beings he sweetly changes us so he makes us willing to believe and we really do believe one more quick one and not see him passage John 6 verse 65 therefore said I unto you that no man can come unto me has no ability that's what the Greek means except it were given unto him of my father that is the coming on to him and the coming as Jesus explains in John 6 is the same thing as believing new on can't come except it the coming is given to him with the father and then it says interestingly enough from that time many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him because he didn't like the truth that they couldn't come to Christ unless God gave it to them and effectually drew them to himself that's irresistible grace but from the example I give my myself it's clear that no I couldn't find my way personally but in my heart I was yearning yes I know it's based on that journey that God drew me in and I've seen that situation with so many people hmmm so are you going to tell me that God cannot draw the atheist oh yeah I'm Gnostic oh he can and God drew me from all sorts of sin God does this he makes us he makes us willing and you see the key question is why did you seek after God well the guy let's say next door I don't know maybe you have a believer he lives next door to Eddie but but the guy next door the other guy doesn't you know God gives some people the gift of faith Ephesians 2 Philippians 1 verse 29 and to others he doesn't give it as many as were or d-end on to eternal life believed God no saw swelling God put lemon up here some in there yes the Bible says teach a child the way he should go when he grows up he will not depart from it yeah when you check history even in this nation you discover that the current generation who reject God they were not taught anything about God from the beginning but if you are taught about God from the beginning this this is seed that's left there that make them understand God is there so when they grow older they not want to search for this God and based on integrity of your hearts God now draws them but if the seed is not there there's nothing to draw that's what I can see from experience mmm there's an email here you want to spoil the Rams it well um in connection with the drawing of God I absolutely believe that I actually have said that that is a biblical principle however where we may differ in terms of our interpretation of that is I believe that the drawing is for all men I think the scripture makes clear in first Timothy chapter 2 verse 4 it says it talks about that our God our Savior who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth it is clearly I believe God's desire it was Jesus's desire that their their presentation and the presentation of the Gospels for all men and the sacrifice that Jesus made was for all men it wasn't for some men or so the drawing is for all men but who there's an old saying that you can drag a horse to water but you can't make him drink and I think that that there where our salvation meets with the will and plan of God and the election of God is in the fact that we decide to say yes and that doesn't mean that God God isn't sovereign God knows if we're going to say yes or no and he knows maybe we'll say yes or no or we'll say yes on the fourth or fifth time he knows that however I believe that the drawing is is is such that it isn't irresistible there is a accounts in scripture where it teaches that people reject it the gospel in fact Jesus in Matthew chapter 23 verse 37 he taught about Jerusalem and he talks about the fact that these evil wicked men they stoned the prophets however he would have gathered them as children as a mother hen does to its brood and then he said something he declares but ye would not that is act of their will it's not it's not an act of God that they wouldn't do that or then thus therefore with that we'd be we'd be saying that the Lord God Almighty actually sends men to hell god bless you sir our Reverend Angus they are torment of Jesus Christ uh-huh from the Calvinist point of view is it a limited one or for all men it is a particular one for the elect only and it sees every last one of them who are the elect the elect are those whom God graciously chooses in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world think about for a man if Jesus Christ died on the cross for every individual head forehead yeah right that's the contention over here minute why would he die for those people who are already in hell what's the point in that why would Christ died for those people in the Old Testament the majority of the nations of the earth who never even heard the gospel and in the New Testament times most people have not heard the gospel either this would have Jesus dying for Esau and yet the Bible says Jacob have I loved Esau have I hated so God the atonement is the fruit of God's love and yet here's someone whom God hates this view would also have Christ dying for the man of sin Antichrist the son of perdition and him called the son of perdition he came from Hell he's a child of the devil and he goes to hell and then and then the false prophet he died for them but the key thing to consider here is what is the cross the cross is nowhere spoken of in the Bible as a potentiality something which God does and if we do our wee bit then it's made effectual the cross is atonement reconciliation those for whom Christ dies he reconciles me expands it's Redemption he pays the price buys us back and yet most people perish we're told ransom brings aside of prison this is what the cross is a propitiation that turning a way of Wrath and we're saying that Christ sees the travail of his soul is a a53 and is satisfied the cross by his justification adoption sanctification glorification calling regeneration a new and holy life and yet he's supposed to have purchased this for everybody and they go on and live in their sense so many things have been said that I'd love to get back to here's one quick verse Genesis 6 verse 5 right God says every imagination of the thoughts of man's heart is only evil continually every imagination so here's the thoughts of the heart every imagination is evil every imagination is only evil continually and that's why we need to be regenerated we need a few life before we can ever believe well yes sir can I say that Genesis chapter 6 is a referring to a specific point in time and a specific group of people about their depravity even in connection with Romans chapter 3 the Jewish Midrash they book they believed that that wasn't for the whole of mankind there are sins that I mentioned in Romans chapter 3 that you could not put on all of mankind so I don't I don't believe that there is in lepidus context we could we could use that scripture unfortunately what happens in a strong Calvinistic background is that I believe a lot of things I inferred into the scripture that's just not there we understand in Hebrews chapter 1 verses 1 through 3 that God is ministering to the world in these last days through His Son Jesus we can clearly look at the words of Jesus and understand and stick to the words of Jesus and understand simple Sunday School Scriptures John chapter 3 verse 16 for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that who so ever who can be whosoever anyone can be a whosoever whosoever believeth to him should not perish but have everlasting life even in connection with God hating Esau is clear to see if you read the account of Esau that God had particular Grace and favor upon Esau and his life so I don't believe in terms of that the word hate used there it's referred to how we would see hate in fact a lot of times when we see hate in the scripture it's a metonymy is this referring to the sin but attributed it to the man let's just look at Titus chapter 2 verse 11 Titus chapter 2 verse 11 says for the grace of God you see this unmerited favor that we both believe in that we both love that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men it's appeared to all men and regardless of what man chooses to do with that and then I will say there is room in the scripture to state that when men continually makes bad decisions they God may add on top of that a hardness of their heart like he did to Pharaoh but to say that he died for some and he didn't die for and then he died it then for some he did it that die will I believe is a gross misjudgment of the scripture maybe yes can i comment Sona yeah give me one because I'm gonna come back to you good good I Timothy said that Genesis 6 verse 5 applies to people back then Genesis 8 verse 21 after the flood says the imagination of man's heart is evil yeah mine is the same before the flood after the flood right to this day Romans 3 is a description of Jew and Gentile it's a description of every individual who has ever lived since the fall apart from our Lord Jesus Christ to the sinful and impeccable and it is not some Jewish Midrash it's inspired scripture quoting from Old Testament pulling together all these Old Testament passages which says that there's none that doeth good there's none that seeketh after God no not one that all together become unprofitable this is every individual this is the judgment of the gospel and this is why we need to be saved this is why we need the righteousness of Jesus Christ John 3 verse 16 Timothy has quoted it world.there he needs to prove that world means every individual head forehead that's his work tonight I don't need to prove that yes you do you need to prove that it doesn't mean okay I'll give you a whole squad John John 17 verse 9 Jesus says I pray not for the world but for them whom thou hast given me so he saying world there and John three means everybody had four head including Judas and Pharaoh him God hardened and Antichrist and so on well Jesus says he died not for the world but for those whom thou hast given me so there he's praying for some people so he can't he's up praying for the same world as the world is in John 3:16 and then at first John what passage he says love my world that that John would 17 verse 9 I'm 17 but on 17 verse 9 let's quickly check that out yep John 7 39 verse 9 I pray for them I pray not for the world let me but for them not even me let me just get there John 17 9 I pray for them I pray not for the world I pray for them I pray not for the world but for them which thou has given me for the amah 9 dire line those are the ones given to Christ the elect he says he's praying for them but not for the world first John to Jesus there's the Scriptures there say love not the world and there it means the world is an evil system there's at least three different instances Romans 11 world means Gentiles as opposed to Jews I just want to ask you some simple questions good I like what the benefit for the benefit of some viewers because you know there are so many kind of Christians watching you the carbonates he did they believed in the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues no calvess do not believe that number 2 do they believe in laying on of hands for healing you know as hands-free we do not believe that God gives to man the gift of healing today only on the Apostolic age do they believe in casting out of demons in the name of Jesus we do not believe that that power is given to anyone today but that was granted to the apostles that's a to the martyr but you said earlier on about some people already in hell yeah before Christ King mm-hmm what can you break that down again because I just want to have a clearer picture of what your present your argument was that's one way you made before God created the heavens and the earth some people already in hell oh is that what you do I mean or some people in Hell when Christ died 2,000 years ago those four thousand years of history and some people and I look at the neck of Peter the Bible said that Christ went to preached to the spirits who are held captive in hell okay first Peter 3 yeah yeah I don't interpret it that way at all oh I take it the Christ in that passage preaches by the spirit through Noah to those who are currently in hell okay so Christ the Spirit works through oh he's a preacher of righteousness the people rejected those in the photo job I know they're in hell so your belief is that the people who everyone who died before Christ no no we're not benefit from the salvation no no those who believed in Christ in the Old Testament like Noah and the e attire and the artwork Christ was not there yet at that time but Christ death is the only way of saving anyone and he is the lamb slain no one on the fundation right had not appeared in the Old Testament yeah and some good guys or on bad guys died in the Old Testament doesn't mean that all the guys who died in the Old Testament would not benefit from the salvation that Christ brought Christ's death is retroactive to the believers in the Old Testament okay retract you how would they know if they haven't seen him or heard of him well jesus said and John chapter 8 Abraham rejoiced to see my day I was glad crisis typified in the Old Testament sacrificial system he appeared to Isaiah in chapter Isaiah chapter 6 into Ezekiel in Chapter 1 3 10 and so on Christ was there oh I are you know I'm just I'm playing neutral here but on the other hand I have some questions I'm sure but from the argument you present in its begin to sound to me like the companies have these are they they want to use a rational thinking to analyze spiritual things you know like explain spiritual things with you know carnal knowledge that's what I can see because I hear I couldn't really see this spiritual behind you know that I can see the spirit behind what you're saying really okay the Spirit works through the Scriptures and first Corinthians chapter 2 says we compare spiritual things with spiritual and that's what we do we compare spiritual things especially believe that God is in order Jesus Christ is the logos the word of God on which we get our word logical the Bible is truth one of the key things of a truth as it's noncontradictory and the Bible teaches one great message of the god of our salvation let me come to revering around yes I just want to go back on a couple of things we read John chapter four you in its totality we see the word well there used on many instances and again to denote the fact that it could mean a variety of other things I believe it's just a gross injustice to the death of Jesus on the cross also in connection with Romans chapter 3 I'll just use a quote from a Donnell gray Barnhouse he said this in connection with total depravity he says we add that total depravity and he's a countless we add that total depravity does not mean that there is no good in man but there is no good in man which can satisfy God that's what we believe we must not think that the passage Romans 10:3 Romans 3:10 4:18 is accusing every member of the human race has have committed all these individual sins but is teach it but it is teaching but what it is teaching is that the roots of form of all sin are in all men I mean we we absolutely believe that if we go back to connection with God being sovereign and God's will I believe it's clear in Scripture that it is God's will that no man should perish 2nd Peter chapter 3 verse 9 says the Lord is not slow about his promise as some count some slowness but is patient toward you not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance I believe is clearly we looked at 1st Timothy chapter 2 we can even understand in Ezekiel 1823 that the Lord has no pleasure in the death of the wicked and his desire is that if I if they should return turn from their ways and that they should live that would be best for God so if that is God's will and if that is God's desire then why aren't all men saved it would pose a problem to the Calvinist its view of sovereignty if it if it's if we disbelieve that that's God's will yeah not all men do God's will and I believe it's just a simple point to show that there is a God word side Rize man Woodside and that that is how God created it is not to say that he's not sovereign that's how he set it up in the air god bless you sir um you know I love the emails I just pouring is like people have been sitting and waiting that's one question here from one of the viewers is from David Thomas in we're oh he said I think Calvinism gives a these excuses atheist can say God doesn't want all of them because they can't believe in him then they say this means God is unjust because he's already decided to send them to hell and it's not their fault how does the Covenant respond to this he theists are fools silence it takes on 14 verse 1 the fools there is already he's God Calculon is the only answer to an atheist because Calvinism can save him whereas the god of our minion ism wants to save everybody had all depends on the free will of man and he is utterly impotent to save everybody he doesn't actually see it just gives everybody a chance because the final matter no you'll have to agree with us the final matter in our million schema salvation is the free will of the center not why that's why somebody's in heaven and that's why the guy next door isn't the free will the center isn't that what it depends on come at the last announcer but but even well our it is it get it we still I still did that salvation it is God's drawing about the if I believe are the Arminianism stance is better than the Calvinistic starch which teaches that God chooses picks and chooses whom the Apostle said of a truth I know that God is no respecter of persons I he's not judging men on their merit but yet he picks and chooses who to save and who just sent to hell I think that's far more damaging but the question is yeah why would God give human beings free will when he can just push him around like robots he can decide what's what there's no need to give us free wheel down your nerve man isn't a robot we don't hold the man to rule that makes choices all the times right you know we made choices to cry many times we said no matter what what shirt to wear and what things to jot down a little bit of paper monix loads of choices what I would say he doesn't is God because he's a sinner and he loves darkness rather than light Romans 3 verse 10 directly contradicts what mister Barnhouse said as quoted by Timothy it says there is none that doeth good no not one and good you see in God's eyes means it's out of faith right and the own believer doesn't have fear good in God's eyes means it's according to his law and done to his glory it's in the eyes of God nothing's good because man is sinful the proverb says even the plowing of the wicked is sin and those verses Matthew 23 verse 37 o Jerusalem Jerusalem that killest the prophets and stonest and that are sent on the high often without God I children etc there's Jerusalem whom Jesus is addressing and he says to Jerusalem I would have gathered not you but your children that passage Matthew 23 is a long series of wolves Jesus addressing the scribes and the FARC's whom he calls hypocrites woe unto you for doing that sworn to you for doing that and then he says o Jerusalem Jerusalem not even with love he's addressing them at anger how often would I have gathered your children and you would not you told them that I was a blasphemer that I was on to the power of Satan and Jesus said you didn't want me to go Jerusalem's children this would be like for instance I'm going to cut a case someone in the congregation and the husband's a believer in the wife isn't and the wife does everything she can to stop but the husband brings the children to me and I catechized them anyway the blame is on the religious leaders because they didn't want to into trade to stop Jesus but Jesus comes and he saves all of Jerusalem's children second Peter 3 verse 9 the Lord is not willing that any should perish because he's long-suffering to us-ward not willing at any of us should perish but that all should come to repentance is why is Jesus not coming back with scoffers are denying that why has he not come back and Peter explains that Christ does not come back now and judge the scoffers in the wicked world because he needs to bring in all of God's people for instance if before God converted me about 20 years ago 20 years ago Christ to come back I wouldn't even say if Christ has to wait - they're all come all the Elector brought and he brings us all to repentance whereas the interpretation of Timothy means that Christ will never come back if he wants to save everybody and that's given in the context the reason why Christ doesn't come back he'll never return which is why that interpretation is self-contradictory unfalsifiable passage you got to read the context second Peter 3 okay River in rooms yes sir I believe that there is a amount of time that God is giving and in terms of his grace in his dispensation of love towards the earth where he's not returning so that the Gospel message can be spread so it can be taken to the uttermost parts of the earth if we could just go back to Romans chapter 3 verse 10 where it talks about that there is none that do good in verse in it there is none that do good there is none that is righteous no not one there is none that understandeth there is none that seeketh after God yet are in there is many scriptures where it talks about man seeking after the Lord again in Romans chapter 3 verse 10 I Paulette Paul is quoting from Ecclesiastes chapter 7 verse 20 and it talks about that there is met there is none that does good in clear this chapter 7 and and and does not sin and of course it is again it's talking about the condition that there isn't none in earth that has the ability to make them self righteous and that's absolutely what we believe and it is the grace of God but to get limit that atonement and limit that grace to whom God picks and chooses once again you make God you make God the the one who sends men to hell when he's a just and righteous judge and and man will come to the realization at judgment but it wasn't God that sent me there it was my choice I chose it the grace was available for me the difficulty was that interpretation of Romans chapter three years and that's exactly what the passage the nice seeking God yet there are loads of people in the Bible who seek God and they seek God because God made them willing and the day of his power like Noah unlike me and all who pray because Greece does it here's Romans 7 verse 18 me that is in my flesh dwelleth no good thing and free will the power to choose god of ourselves with a little bit of assistance is most certainly a good thing and paul says i know that in me that is in my flesh dwelleth no good thing and i can say that with experience that i have no free well before i was converted i had new grace nothing good in me to command me to God at all I wasn't righteous and I never understood and I didn't seek God and I gone out of the way and I was unprofitable I didn't do a good and my throat was perverse and destruction and misery in my ways and we a way of peace I didn't know what I didn't fear God it certainly applied to me and everybody I've ever met and then God came and saved me by grace yeah you know I got you your I guess somehow in my spirit yeah I can't really flow with that without your argument because good it's like you you have a blanket you know thing about you know being good look us human beings we can be good to one another but when the Bible talks about about good you know like like what Paul said here in a particular situation he can just say well I'm not good you know I can't call myself a good person but generally his righteous message is a good man I come to the Bible because in the Old Testament there were good and bad people uh-huh so he can't say the good people in the Old Testament who didn't even know God like it says in Romans teratoma chapter one uh-huh it is so interesting Romans chapter one and I'm sorry so you must have two to verse 14 it says for when the Gentiles which hath not the law do by nature the things contained in the law these having not the law are a law unto themselves which show that the work works of the law written on their hearts their conscience also bearing witness and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another so what the Bible is saying here is that some people do good naturally even though they haven't seen the law so but when you pack the good and say well there's no goodness in man and man is useless is only God it doesn't it doesn't connect it doesn't really make sense because when you look at the world history huh majority of the nation's where people believe in one kind of God or the other you discover that it's easy to even convert those to Christianity nations where you have a lot of atheist you like for instance in this nation it's a take the Bible out of the schools they took care of the schools here took it out of the schools in America and we can see what happens but if those same children have been taught the Word of God talked about God from the youth we wouldn't have this sort of problem we have in our hands today so which indicates that it will be easier for someone to connect with God if they have an idea who he is from the beginning but they don't have an idea there's nothing they can do yeah I think it would be great if we could teach more children the ways of trust and it's a sign of the decadence of our society that so many want to keep them from the knowledge of Jesus Christ let me let me Grauman's through sorry I was gonna say Romans Romans 2 verse 15 doesn't actually say that the law is written in their hearts if the law was written in their hearts they would be regenerative ii believers at settlements to rumors to verse 15 the passage code okay says the work of the law is written in their hearts which is then explained as their conscience also bearing witness and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one hour what is giving the grounds for god's judgment of the gentiles the work of the law a gentile even even someone who's never heard christianity but of course somebody's heard more their conscience is more attune they all know their current when an ungodly person does something his conscience either tells them that what I did was right or if I stole that was evil the work of the law is in everybody's conscience God has not left himself out for that is good without a witness but you see there's sin and then there's more sin mhm Lucas I'm the chief sin is not having God for your God and loving God with all your heart soul strength to me that's what everyone's come out to do and if someone is an unbeliever and they go out and play their field and they make it really really straight and they we have it all their neighbors well the playing of the wicked is still sin because he didn't love God with all his heart soul strength and mind and in fact even the believer he always sins and everything he does because I know that in me that is in my flesh dwelleth no good thing and the only good thing in the believer Paul says in Romans 7 is the work of the holy spirit and the believer the unbeliever doesn't have it so it's all sin and this is the judgment of the gospel this is why people need to be saved on the needy of the gospel preached to the I say I agree with that wholeheartedly that the gospel needs to be preached even in connection with Romans chapter 2 verse 15 we can gain understanding that even those that had haven't who have had who have had not opportunity to receive the good news the gospel that they even inherently in them there is a there is the ability to choose something that is right in accordance to with what God says in the word no it won't justify no it won't save them but it is still something that they can do in connection with making a good choice also I think another problem that is posed in connection with the limited atonement is that we wholeheartedly believe that after Adam fell that's sin and death passed on to all men and Christ is the second Adam and for us then to say that through the second Adam that although sin and death pass to all men through the first Adam through the second Adam is going to be limited if some men are going to be excused some men are it god never intended it for you God never desired it for you and you have absolutely no shorter opportunity of receiving the grace that comes through Jesus even though he's the second Adam but then it sounds like it's an insult to the blood of Christ because really from what he's just quoted yeah but I look at it this way I our research for instance into all these things and the Bible says that not nothing unclean will enter Heaven and we know that man got contaminated here on earth when Adam and Eve sinned and the sinful nature came down the chain up to today yeah and that was the reason why Christ came because God knew that without the sinful nature being removed from man by the blood of Christ there's no way they can enter Heaven so if he died for all then obviously he must have come to die for all men for them to be able to apply that blood when they accept him as their Lord and Savior because you know you know that's there are lovely scriptures coming through for what we're seeing here you see once you accept him as your Lord and Savior the blood supernaturally removes the sinful nature making them a candidate for heaven it's as simple as that so I don't know how it could be so complicated hmm from your and the passage which Timothy quotes referring to Christ as the second Adam yeah Romans five first Corinthians 15 proves too much because of Christ is the second second Adam when he died for every individual then every individual is saved and on the contrary the theory that Christ shed his blood and redeemed propitiated bore the wrath of saved ransomed reconcile everybody had forehead and then they go to hell shows the death of Christ is in F actual and Christ has failed miserably with most of the people according to that theory for whom he actually died and that God is weak and the death of Christ this week and even those whom it saves aren't saved in the final analysis because of the cross because it was for everybody the decisive factor is man's free will and the reason why one persons in heaven according to our scheme and not Nolan isn't God's choice but man's choice isn't God's free will it's man's free will and that means the people in heaven will be able to say Lord I'm here because in the final analysis my free will was decisive and I made myself to differ from that guy over there and so then boasting the other guy because the other guy over there had the opportunity he rejected it because of his pride because garnets and instead of the heart yeah but there's there's what we call you know integrity of the heart no it's just like our what's-his-name Abimelech in the Bible when he took Abraham's wife and the underdog to him I said if you touch the woman tonight you're dead he went back to Abraham he said in the integrity of my heart alright taking the woman because he believed that you know she was she was a single person fail so you see the integrity of the heart is what God looks at and based on that yes you know but but the person who rejects God generally when you search around the whole world uh-huh you will see clearly that he you know it's from a point of pride most of the time the problem is that there is no integrity of heart in Jeremiah 17 verse 9 says the heart of man is deceitful above all things are desperately wicked who could not and you guys are talking about it you don't even know it a weekend man it is decision yeah it's wicked damn of all things yes sure but then at the end of the day when you look at that romanced up to to verse 14 and 15 were talking about Illya he says some some people behave well like they even know the law even though they haven't even seen the law which means that you know which means that it is your blanket you are putting though everybody just one big buck yeah and like sinners yeah sinners yeah but we were once sinners that's the thing so and the Bible declares that yet while we was in our sins he still loved us and His grace was still shown towards us another issue I think in connection with what brother Angus said was that I don't believe that any Armenian list or anyone else who subscribes to this particular ology that we're talking about uh underestimates the grace of God or or some somehow by us saying that we have freewill that it is we've placed it as a work upon ourselves it's just a choice that we made we would have never had the opportunity of that choice if it wasn't for the grace of God and I just want to share first on chapter 2 verse 2 it says it talks about Jesus it says my little children these things write I unto you that you sin not and if any man sin we have an advocate with the father Jesus Christ the righteous and he is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world but again is it Christ I believe Christ's atonement is is all atoning but - but no we don't believe in inclusive including inclusive ism that everyone will be saved but that it is all atoning if man says yes to it thank God they can become born again but if man says no to it then they will have to face what God has already decreed as a response to reject in His grace let's quickly go through some emails emails I just pouring in legends through them one by one here this one is from brother Dave in Cumbria he says there you need to scriptures that find flaws in Calvinism John 3:16 and all that call on the name of the Lord will be saved god bless just said John 3:16 that that one say sir where am i where is it he says for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever any human being believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life then this one is from brother Chris and Wells is a by brother Calvinism as advocated by Angus is very extreme and nullifies many important scriptures particularly those scriptures exhorting us to persevere to persevere in a nutshell Calvinism taken to such an extreme takes away man's responsibility to repent to live right to believe this sort of Calvinism takes such a one-sided and very narrow view of Scripture God is sovereign and don't choose us but we too have to respond to him and to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling this alone makes extreme Calvinism redundant God wants us to be balanced and as the other brother said we must first be free scared course sad to say Calvinism can indeed be very divisive denominationalism and unhelpful if taken to this extreme we need to be balanced and hold both truth together if we should seek the Lord with all our hearts we will be found if we search that makes angles Calvinism bankrupt Shalom what does angles believe about Israel boy that's another area let me just quickly go through this once hi guys just a question is there a hell if as I believe there is that there is that must be that must mean that God is and always has been sovereign then there's this one from Dan then Donahue is that if only those that God has gifted with belief were able to be drawn why would we need to go out and share the gospel with all with every place and that makes a lot of sense well another one Chris Angus misrepresented the Armenian view we are not saying Jesus died for the wicked who already died that is rubbish and a twisting of what the Armenian view is but he's easily tired for her Jesus died for the righteous who lived in the Old Testament including all who repent and believe in the future not Antichrist or Judas as Angus has said woof awesome hmm he's Abuna me cuz then he then Christ didn't die for everybody here per head hang on just take down notes and because the emails I just rushing in take down notes how any important points you want to make as I'm talking yep this one's from dance it doesn't that mean Jesus prayed for those who would believe in him with every blessing another one here question for the Brethren where does it say in the Bible that the blood of Jesus was shed for all man Matthew 26:28 god bless you from Patrick from Patrick Matthew 26:28 what does that one say let's quickly check that out it says that the blood of Christ was said for many many many keep many okay Lynch if you bring that in light with what the rest of the scripture says yes is a high I mean why can't God die for the Antichrist and those involved in pure evil and all is only seeking evil surely that only adds to the glory unfailing love and power of God because when they meet God and Satan himself meets God at the throne they cannot accuse god of never giving them salvation god therefore cannot be accused and Satan can only accuse us accusers thank God Jesus is our Savior people go to hell because God cannot accept sinners because they reject Christ on the cross for him India India if there is no darkness according to first John chapter 1 verse 5 another one from Elaine their young guests I could never be a Calvinist as several weeks ago I asked the Lord for the gift of tongues I open my mouth in faith and began to speak it at first it sounded strange but now it is a clear full-blown language how your Calvinist gentleman explained to me how I can now speak in an unlearning language blessings to you all Wow loads coming along just just chill because you're gonna talk the AMA Calvinism I believe is bigoted and allows very little grace for the sinner puts people of the grace of God the Lord says it is not for not his will for any to perish jesus also says he knocks and awaits all the call on him to enter to enter this means they do enter this means everyone another one here from Palo the Jesus not say you did not choose me but I chose you well that's another one they are presented as a conversation analyst I find you not to be impartial well I can't be impartial have viewed you this is discussion it is it's not it's not a debate for somebody to win or whatsoever we have to throw all the points on oh I find you not to be impartial as when Tim Ramsey's say something you say to him god bless you or none goes to or says something just answer him with disbeliever more questions yes I don't mind thank you don't worry I had that with Justin people revelation TV send me the DVD of this program as I would like to analyze this further for a dissertation I would be willing to pay for it my details are below don't worry we get it through to you with that that Sarah Mike Sarah Cain McGuigan Calvinist she says God bless you Calvinists who were the spirits in prison whom Christ visited woo our Lord what alright so so far what you have to say good most of those were for me we believe in the perseverance the Saints that's one of the key points those who are elect and given to Christ who believe are called by God's grace to continue because it is God who works in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure all men are responsible because God created us gods our judge God tells us what we should do and all men even those that don't hear the gospel Romans 2 verses 14 and 15 have a conscience and their conscience either excuses them or condemns them in the old stand before God and be judged according to the light that they have responsibility deals with God's command we must do what he tells us to do we preach the gospel as Calvinist first because God commands us to go out into all the world and preach the gospel and we're active and busy in doing that and because the preaching is the means that God uses to draw his elect it's the savour of life unto life and it's the savour of death on to death second Corinthians chapter 2 as for speaking in tongues on CPR C website CPR c co uk CP RC co uk along the left-hand side there's a special section on cara's mattis ism there's material air on speak on tongues and there's another debate that you can click which I was here they out some cessationism ok second Peter 3 verse 9 is quoted the Lord is long-suffering to us-ward believers the beloved in the context not willing at any of us should perish but that all should come to repentance and God's will as mating he brings every last one to salvation another man said that all men are the call upon the Lord are saved absolutely everybody who calls upon the leave of the Lord is saved and that's good news John 3 verse 16 for God so loved the world that whosoever believes in Him should not perish the word whosoever's be much emphasized it is actually not there in the Greek whosoever believeth is a participial participial clause for God so loved the world that believing once should not perish but have everlasting life man of God yes sir I want to say in connection with something in connection with preaching the gospel I believe in Romans chapter 12 verse 3 talks about that God has given every man a measure of faith and you know we can see that in history and anthropology we can see that in our society that there are people that are searching they may not be there are people that are many people in religions and serving other gods and I believe it is that measure of faith that has been given and it is in Romans chapter 10 verse 17 which talks about that faith comes by hearing all the faith to believe in Christ comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God amen and then it talks about many many who heard the word believed in Acts chapter 4 verse 4 so there there is a con there is a something in the scripture which which clearly states that the gospel needs to be preached one thing I do know about Calvinists in their history they have been very strong evangelized so that they understand that concept I do want to share once again in those who in Acts chapter 2 even if we just go throughout the ex and look at the various sermons this is real history happening before our eyes the infancy of the early church and we can see surely that they were they were they were they were preaching that it is again dependent on who will call upon the name of the Lord they shall be saved we can see in Steven sermon that he declared that they were stiff-necked and they rejected and refused the Holy Spirit which again places that viewpoint on the man's rejection of the grace that was shed abroad Matthew chapter 22 talks about once again that the rejection of the invitation of a king a parable to show that the grace certainly isn't irresistible it can be rejected it can be refuted and thank God he chose that because it was rejected by a certain group of people it then came to us then we have the the in Matthew chapter 22 verse 14 says for many are called but few are chosen again so he all right and my you was waiting for that one my understanding concept of that is again who decided to come who answered the call was it dependent on their invite or or the invitees and I believe in most cases it was it was dependent on the person who received the call and they chose to accept and hence became the chosen ones the difficulty is though that that passage explains that those many were called the gospel night and the people who believed were the ones who are chosen the elect which is exactly what Ephesians 1 verse 4 would say the measure of faith given in Romans 12 verse 3 is given to every man and it's every man in the church everyone in the church was another good instance of where every and all does not mean everybody head forehead faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God indeed but then the question is why do some exercise faith and why do some not and the answer is as many as we're or D and on to eternal life believe get as many as were not believed I believe it's clear in the presentation of the gospel can have a huge impact on the effectiveness of those who receive it you know we go out every every other Saturday we do our evangelism and there is one armed ministry director that she has a certain knack a gift to Minister the gospel in such a way that that it is more persuasive than maybe someone else who ministers it so there's as you brought up the rearing of children there are various aspects that can influence and even produce a greater response to the gospel in line with the grace of God that comes so yeah you but this is directed at Reverend Angus I personally I when I come across people organizations who don't believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues what I tend to see about them you know like you select the Jewish witnesses and all those guys what I tend to see is that they believe a lot in the letter and the Bible says the letter killeth by the spirit that gives life and a surreal and I tend to see that the ugly when they argue they tend to argue based on letter but I can't fix pretty substance could you explain that you know yeah that's part of the explanation um for my quick speaking and keenness stick it in is because um many people don't agree with what i'm saying i want to get argument side and i want to get the might thick and fast but there's so much raised and another issue of Pentecostalism i'm again in the minority um interests you mentioned the jehovah's witnesses because you know the jehovah's witnesses all believe in in free will the christ died for everybody and God wants to save everybody which is exactly there are many and I'm just talking about their doctrine genuinely being using scripture and so on yeah yeah yeah and that's why I'm trying to get out with so much scripture um you know the doctrines which I've been teaching you know in terms of persuasion and so on I think that the man's totally depraved and dead it can be presented as well as possible but I remember one Dutch guy who is actually converted through a speech I gave in Limerick on total depravity on Romans chapter 3 dealing with there's none that doeth good and then he saw that that he needed to be saved because he really was lost my own conversion came through believing total depravity I was brought up in an Arminian apostate Church of Ireland Church and I always thought wrongly because the church at top and I could believe whenever I wanted and then when I became older and more wicked I began to see it I wasn't the good person that the church had told me and then I thought wow I need to decide if Bible's true or not and then I thought I should become a Christian but lo and behold I couldn't just believe I said Lord save me but in my heart I love my sin it was afraid of what people would say and then one time God just changed my heart and I believed and the last straw the Lord used to humble me it was a young Scottish man who told me that only the elect can believe and that destroyed my selfish foolish pride because I thought it was all up to me and I could be saved and everyone wanted to and then I realized I was dealing with the God in me at heaven on earth so those things are persuasive the Word of God converts sometimes and God uses own word to change people on it's the power of God unto salvation let me quickly go through some more emails here this one is from a lady called Valerie she's a hello and hello angles cannot really be able to speak from the heart and see the Bible as God intended it because in internet too because he is doing it in the flesh not the spirit because he does not believe in the laying on of hands and believe the gift of speaking in tongues which is the Holy Spirit speaking through us and plus he's taking over nearly all the conversation and not given enough time for the reply of view from the other pastor I am a born-again believer who do not believe in Calvinism it distorts the Bible it is shameful in what he's speaking of the opinion of Calvinism he is putting Jesus in the back light praise the Lord he still loves him ok another one here from the tongue he says hi there fascinating discussion your Armenian speaker says that God does not send anyone to hell but that sinners send themselves to hell this is unbiblical teaching teaching yet it become extremely popular into this church because Christians are embarrassed about the Bible's teaching on hell the Bible makes it very clear that God indeed sends people to hell absolutely no one else has the authority to do so I don't have the authority to send myself to hell God alone does so Matthew 22 39 and 39 matthew 13:30 you that's Tom the emails I just move fully loaded let's check this other one I'm gonna come here a minute uh pastor Ramsey there you meet the dear brother in Christ the Covenant has just changed his mind he started off saying God chooses and his last statement says it's man's free will that means all that all that call on his name will be all that call on his name will be saved every human being throughout the that lives God gives you a choice well he's nothing lately that they send his no balance day he said it that means all that call on his name will be saved every human being throughout their their lives God gives the chance to come to him well another one here from Dave didn't Dave have a heart after God's own heart that's talking about David in the Bible then this this one from Thomas David Thomas he says if there's no good in us what about our conscience conscience informs us of good or evil so man is without excuse conscience is a good thing God put it in us even unbelievers can do good and that is because of conscience because God put it there regards Wow Reverend Reverend Ramsey yes sir um just to go back in connection with our the issue of God putting people in hell or sending people to hell again when we spin out when I make that statement or when Arminius makes that statement is not again decrying the judgment of God that he will judge man and he will judge men righteously and when the conviction is guilty for a person who has rejected Jesus Christ the conviction is guilty it will be clear to them that God did everything that he could to win them he did everything that he could to show them the light when the guilty judgment is set and sent they will have understanding it was my fault I rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ god bless you you know what the telephone lines are now open you know I just have so many emails coming in and I know the lines will be jammed but in the meantime when you call him make it short and sharp no long stories just short and shout very please so the phone lines are open phone in and let's talk Raburn angles I'm one of the lady said I was taking over the conversation and heart that's to be explained by the fact that well Timothy's putting it to me you're more green with Timothy and most of the people who are coming in the only thing is that I'm expressing what's a new opinion for most people and we're short of time and you guys are reason a whole lot of things I have it really an argon is that I I understand that and again I think can I say this again I think through history that this subject has been extremely divisive to the body and I don't know you just made mention that you was from an Arminian apostate Church I didn't mean all were espousing character I'm alright but again I think it is literally what the Apostle Paul said some are saying we're offer Paulo some are saying we're of Paul some are saying we of Calvin summer Sailor of Arminius and we're of Christ and that's what I believe and I believe it's it's okay to disagree but they're the schisms or the gap which causes division that's when it becomes a problem that's right it comes in that's another email here brother angers really listen to this from Allison say your Calvinist guest seems to be coming across as trying to be intellectual and appears defensive if he is meant to know so much about Jesus weighs his inward peace and where's his joy in the Lord pastor Timothy hasn't been able to say very much but it seems to have a gracious and peaceable spirit about him look she's not a fire um I'm filled with peace and joy because the Spirit of Christ is in me and Anu is unshakeable love there you are quick one for Valerie by the way back there CPR co uk there's material on cars mattis ISM and there's also books pallets 120 of them we give them out freed anybody goes online orders them and here's a book the five points of Calvinism just out this year as we published the tulip the - yep the best movement of subjects I knew we sell my reporting superb people who watched revelation TV and three pounds including postage oh okay look I'll try to install men who you gonna blurry 123 pounds if you get away free then people will read it or just you know but well the minnows from the boy we got some callers on them like but Joel um Bruce from Kowal good evening sir and Madam well the discussion wanna booth and we've discovered what we are with absolutely Calvinist oh yeah I wonderful absolutely wonderful you know I think the church in the last few years have tried to turn it into a democracy it is not a democracy and it says in Romans 9 therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy and through Z will be hardened that you know you cannot say that God does not bring evil it's very keen eyes I 45 verse 7 this is great but I think that you had a really hard time to do it I'm doing okay thank you I liked it yesterday i jus it's a big boy in heaven let me take anything one for discussion I'm sure it's gonna be lots more of this oh what a minute it's okay thank you so much oh we're gonna have to go quickly and as the lines are jammed a very quick one yeah me yes sir oh no I say again all known to the Father all his works from the beginning of the Aeon and that means that every choice that any is going to make is also fallen out of the Father yes we do have freedom of choice but he knows what choices we're going to make before you know the question with which I'll leave you to get on with it all right thank you thank you so much show god bless you sir go you told me you got tie on the line good evening tyre hello hi yes yeah I did but no yes we're listening okay hi and this is just a question for the Calvinist preacher okay um I'm just curious as to why he doesn't believe in Hell when if God is righteous then that's where the spinner and those that were jet cry Muscat I mean I have to question his whole ideology on why they wouldn't be a hell in quite clearly space in Revelation believer chapter 21 when God's there when God's talking about those that are to be judged he clearly says that he threw Haiti into the lake of fire now you know you can you can go from the Jehovah Witness point of view and say well it's all symbolic and so forth but the Holy Bible is literal you know so I mean my question is when God says things like you know Christ lives in you and what does what does he take about that I mean surely if Christ is living in us then we must have the power to cast out demon you know perform miracle and so forth and another thing I'm curious to you know wonder is what he's taken the rapture I personally believe it's false I believe it's the false doctrine Jesus is not going to come back any time and we're going to have to go through as a Great Tribulation and so I'd like to know you know whether he believes in the antique right okay can I answer yeah yes sir I certainly do believe in the Orthodox doctrine of hell the wicked shall be cast into hell on all and all that forget God here's Sam 11 the Lord trieth the righteous but the way and him that loveth violence his soul hits all it is in God his soul hits and then upon the wicked he means snares fire and brimstone and terrible part tempest etc so there is hell and the people go to hell the ones whom God hates and Romans it says that all those whom God loves nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus whereas we're hearing from this corner the God loves everybody and yet Hale separates them from the love of God yeah what's wrong there what about the unicorn subscribe there hello if God is righteous uh-huh then he must judge righteously yeah you have to understand that you know we're living in godless state god doesn't mix with in with a sinful nature and if God is righteous we must judge righteously ie those that accept the free offer of salvation then they will be saved but those that reject is they no we don't want that we want to continue smoking going to the club drinking listening through this profane music and profane you know living a profane lifestyle they can never mix with God in heaven they can never mix with holiness which is perfection so you undermine God's judgment and God will hold you fiercely responsible for it and you know you almost condemning yourself in a way you're doing all this preaching work but you're condemning yourself at the same time by saying you know undermining God's righteous judgment and you have to really appreciate that that God is and extremely holy okay I'm Colonel power and because God is holy thank you so much this tie we're gonna have to go because the lines are really jammed because the clothes God is holy and his eyes are so pure they can't look on evil that's why being righteous God's love is a righteous holy love which is why he does not love all sinners the only way the holy and righteous God can love everyone is in the Christ the mediator the one is God and man who saved us note site of crap Christ and the Bible says his wrath and hid red and judgment and that's why everyone must turn to him you see it could I say yes sir that could almost pose a problem I'm sure you would have a some type of want somebody can pose a problem in connection with that the fact that God did love us when we were yet sinners there were time there was a time in our life that we were wicked and that we didn't know God and we were strangers from him yet when we become born again does his hate turn to love and let's just suppose a posed question okay that was Jeremiah 31 says God has loved us with an everlasting love and therefore with loving kindness he's drawn us the effectual call irresistible grace flowing out of election and those whom God sees he turn Lea loves we were under his wrath but he loved us before the foundation of the world in Christ Ephesians 1 verse 4 so it's not that heat returns to love but the problem of the Armenian section is that God loves everybody with this infinite powerful love that can't save them and then it does a complete about turn and the unchangeable God changes in his love becomes hatred Nicky we never got to talk about perseverance but just two quick email here alright one's from Andy say hello brothers good friend is a friendly debate tonight clearly showing that brethren can dwell together even with their differences the point I would like to add I was in a Pentecostal church and held to an Armenian view of salvation until the doctrine of grace were explained to me the question as the whole world the question as the whole world Christ died however in Matthew 1:21 it explains the meaning of the word world when it says you shall call his name Jesus for it is he who will save his people from their sins again in Ephesians 5:25 Christ also loved the church and gave himself up for her Shalom and another and interesting Korean one here is it although I don't agree with all of the Calvinist view I wish to say that I do love your passion and zeal for the Word of God I at last you as a brother in Christ we can agree to disagree and still be brothers and sisters God it's your love man Raghava Chi we got Nathan from Scotland good evening brother yes sir a quick point I don't believe that you can prove biblically or theologically the gifts of the Spirit actually see but I don't further believe also that the evidence of speaking in tongues and spirit baptism are one in the same thing they says one could since thirteen all gleamers are baptized by one spirit into the body of Christ yeah but killed by the spirit all believers receive a baptism of the Spirit are baptized by the spirit into the body of clay so have a have a problem when the views being probably the most kind of costal views on the issue tonight because it's heretical to see the old Pentecostals the evidences were speaking of phones because it's not but I have to take issue in my brother Angus tonight he has done a good job of exposing a lot of the weakness even Pentecostal theology and because a lot of acquaintances quite frankly is blatantly heretical what a wispy TM Lewis is he gets these a lot of these doctrines from the Reformation and from the Protestant reformers Martin Luther and John Calvin Martin Luther himself was an anti-semite who believed that you should be converted at knifepoint or die John Calvin can largely be credited with this system of covenant theology as phone and his reigns in the Institute the mistake that people make darling Protestant reformed theology together together used from the Protestant reformers instead of gone back to the good apostles through the real the real followers of the field and the problem that we've got is there is no basis from the scriptures but you can actually prove it against the possibility when we use that term when that which is perfect is come as more accurately rendered as a neuter and it means when the body is completely capable speed the further point as the reformed theology can lead sir view of replacement theology and that's why bulk and people who are covenant theologians and we take their views from Luther and from Calvin are antisymmetric and believe the promises the Jewish people are transparent to the church which is absolutely heretic oh there's no biblical basis for that and just quite quickly and the Prophet whoa I think we're not hating there you know you know what what I what I took I personally I'm very uncomfortable with this idea of Calvinism I mean anything I was so ever I just believe as Christians hmm we should ignore and forget this past guys who came and went with their own ideas we should today be like barians and go straight in the Bible by the help of the spirit to understand it for ourselves and that way it makes it becomes relevant and useful today but if we keep holding on to the do the old guys who are some how some of them are so I'm not leaving limited in their understand of the Word of God then we're gonna have a lot of problems the same problem we have this with the guys who are the the bra bra bra Romanians on brahmanism they - they held on to teachings of one man and really - now dig into the Bible becomes hard for them because somebody has taught this they believe that him as a leader then that should be the way so I just believe somehow as Christians we should shift away from all these ideas Arminianism company let's go check what the Word of God says based on our own experiences today and be able to press forward I think we got Jerry from Bristol believe me Jerry I don't yes sir yeah I just went to one ask forget today agree with Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 that Christ will be victorious in conquered death yes all forms of death yes yes yes yes been surely this cause this causes a problem with the lake of fire because the lake of fire is actually called the second death in Revelation 20 yeah ok so surely if as Paul says the death is going to be abolished completely ok and the lake of fire is normally understood to be eternal hell then somewhere along the line the second death has to end somewhere on the line the second death has to end otherwise death will last forever don't stand my meaning yeah so if Christ is going to be victorious then ultimately he does have to save everybody yeah in the end that's why it's not necessarily now or in the age to come but ultimately at some point in the distant future you know he does have to save everybody yes sir but the second death to being completely done away with and the only way that can happen is but everyone's given life thank you sir and god bless you I would like to speak to that because I took totally repudiate that that is the heresy of universalism that everyone will be saved and that is totally opposed to all of the Christian religion a quick email here currently 15 is dealing with a quick email here so you read it for first Corinthians bit he says how is from Katrina it says hi all I've just joined the program I have to say I don't have a clue about the theory about the theories that you are discussing I read I read and trust my Bible pray and try to live a Christian life praising and thanking God who gives them monkeys about our simple human theories no offense intended to anyone god bless you all you're going to cook oh well no I was just saying in reference to the last proverb yeah first Corinthians 15 is a paused discourse on an encouragement about natural death and right how it relates to the Saints okay could I respond to one of the ladies if ever one of the people who phoned in loser Luther was dead wrong in the juice it was that was terrible what he said and we repudiate that and we do not hold with Luther just because he's Luther with Calvin because he's Carla we hold with Scripture I hope the people have been watching here have been able to see that we're giving you scripture chapter and verse we have some interesting emails ghost coming through this another one here from a gentleman called George it says Yemi both of your guests are incorrect in many many areas of their theology is not a few of the Eric let's see this this discussion is going to run and it says please not a few of the areas contrary to the original scriptures number one God is sovereign - God created evil three God created the darkness for no one can do good unless God the Father lives in them by his own Holy Spirit just in five says Jesus said that the world that I speak are not mine but my father's who doeth the works six Jesus is the savior of the world some in this age of grace the rest after the resurrection of the wicked 7 jesus only commissioned only Jesus only commissioned or to save the world he is his love and love never fails age every knee shall bow to Jesus Christ willingly some in this age the rest after the resurrection of the wicked 9 people do not go to heaven or hell when they die they sleep that is have no consciousness until their resurrected resurrected in the first or second resurrection thank you brother George Patrick from East Ham hello Patrick hello good evening good evening yes you think yeah I just want to say we are very interesting on discussion on this sort of topic is quite close to my heart and just wanted to to agree with a lot of the stuff that was saying I more angst aside with what he's saying even though that's not there we actually whether I was actually taught or just really just looking at the Scriptures just plainly as he speaks you know it doesn't speak of that God has elected his own and that the sons of God are chosen from the foundation of the world and I know it's not a it's not a concept that is popularly not because of course that that natural instinct a man would like to be able to choose but no the bible does lay out by claiming and you know there's many scriptures I mean just one one particular one where Christ will speak would stay there for they could not believe it there's a scripture in John speaking of they basically people not being able to believe because of prophecy that was already spoken because I has already said you know therefore they could not believe and again John chapter 10 Jesus says the reason you do not believe is because you are not my sheep you know me many scriptures that show that it's not really about man's choice but it's about God's election and Romans chapter nine is the key want to eat actually speak that it's not of him who will it's nothing to do with your will or your desire is of God's election and they actually ask the question is good unjust and seeing as you know seeing is is not to a person to choose why does God still find fault in the answer to that question is very interesting you know who are you old man to answer to God God doesn t choose this you know so I mean it's a very difficult truth to accept what it is the Word of God yes sir thank you so much you know hang on let me just quickly wrap things up before I give you guys two minutes each this one is from Chris in Wales it's a semi brother that last caller believed in universalism explain to the viewers that you don't agree with that or people we think you agree with him bless your brother I don't believe in universalism I don't believe in a minion ISM I don't believe in carbon ISM I believe in the Word of God I got a me I'll give you one minutes each okay well praise God we have a lot to deal with in one minute I don't can I can I say that I didn't want to choose me sir this is a confrontation of opinions and ideas about the Word of God has been raging for centuries and we could not hope to what's right in in a one and a half hour show there are many well learned scholars that have gone and died before us they have written whole volumes of books defending each case and again there is merit in both of them I just wanted to leave on the note that God is absolutely a loving God and reaches out to the wicked Isaiah 65 it says I I am I sort of them that asked not for me I found of them that sought not for me I said behold me behold me unto a nation that was not called by my name I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people which walketh in a way that was not good after their own force that is love of God one minute steps now starts night CPR co uk send me an email or a post all my details are there we've got pamphlets on Calvinism gonna I'm gonna tried to call isn't it he says that well not allowed on twelve thousand thirty seven to forty John 10 verse twenty six this verses quoted there should be read hears Romans nine it is not a hymn that willeth nor of him that runneth but of God the truth mercy salvation is not freewill of sinners verse 21 hath not the Potter powered over the clay of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour what if God willing to show his wrath and to make his power known endured with much long-suffering the vessels of Wrath fitted to destruction that's reprobation that he made make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy that's election election to glory proverbs 16 verse 4 the Lord has made all things for himself even the wicked for the day of destruction first Timothy to hold ah thank you you know what I'll send the bill to your God we tied you for this on that I want to thank you so much for coming over tonight both of you we're gonna do it again here thank you so much for watching you know what whatever you do don't touch that dial keep on praying the Bible is the only word of God don't worry about any one I went before you rich based by the power of the Spirit [Music]

Channel: CPRCNI

Views: 44,557

Rating: 4.6923075 out of 5

Keywords: Calvinism, Arminianism, Debate, Rev., Angus, Stewart, Timothy, Ramsay, grace, sovereign

Id: G5B_UknPtFM

Length: 89min 12sec (5352 seconds)

Published: Fri Dec 14 2012