Calvinism vs Arminianism: Another Way

the purpose of this video is to speak about the Calvinist Armenian debate many people if you've been around Christianity very long especially in the United States you've probably heard that there's a debate between the Calvinists and the Armenians and most likely if you you know that that's probably the only two positions you've heard of that there's just Calvinism and then there's Arminianism there's no in-between and and that's I think a function of our American situation which I want to mention in just a minute because I believe that's not the only two options that those are not the only two options that there's more than just Calvinism and Arminianism but first let me kind of set up generally what the debates about don't have time I don't want to get into all the fine details we'd be happy to discuss that at some other point let's just say that in the Bible there is a tension between passages that point to the universal outreach and love and concern of God I think especially a first Timothy chapter 2 where we're exhorted to pray for all people especially those who are in authority because why it tells us why what is the grounding for our prayers that the promise that we're standing on it says because God wants all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth so the idea is you can pray in fact as it's speaking about what you should be doing in church that's like he says I want first of all that you'll be praying for all people think about that and some in relation to our church what we should be doing in church according to first Timothy is we should be praying for all people based on the idea that God wants all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth then I think of another classic passage in first John where it says there that that Christ is the sacrifice of atonement the propitiation for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world and there it seems pretty clear to me that when he's talking about our sins he's talking about those of of the Christians that he's speaking to and then he's saying for the whole world and so those are some examples of the universalistic tone of many parts of the bible but then you have parts of the bible aimed at christians telling them that they've been chosen from the beginning that this their gods chosen that they are predestined that as he will say jesus to his apostles you did not choose me but I chose you and there's this wonderful these wonderful promises that our believing is not like a chance thing in the sense of an afterthought and no it's your your being of the church is grounded in God's eternal plan and that it's not based in anything about us that's a big part of what God's choosing is about it sits as the Calvinists we'll call it unconditional election it's a gift it's it's something reaching out to us as a gift God's eternal choice of us to be his own and another element to this debate is the way grace works the evangelical arminians and roger olsen in his book Arminianism the myths and facts talks about that there's a difference between what he would call the classic or evangelical Arminianism that goes back to Arminius himself and to John Wesley which emphasizes our being spiritually not alive in the same way that Calvinists do the evangelical are many would say because we're not spiritually alive in order for us to believe we have to be given the ability to believe as a gift and they call this ability to believe previant grace that God through the word and if you're I imagine a United Methodist more sacramental than Olsen the he's an are many in the Baptist and I don't think he would really see the baptism and communion at sacraments more as ordinances but if you're a sacramental she would say through the word in the sacrament God and pre being at graces creating the conditions that make belief possible but yet the believing is something we do in the sense of there's an element of our contributing to that whereas the Calvinist would say that faith itself the act of believing is a sign of being alive that there is no in-between place mentioned in the Bible that either you're spiritually dead or you're spiritually alive and if you've been made spiritually alive it's because God has made you alive and it has nothing to do with any little contribution of your own if it was any kind of little contribution of your own then it wouldn't be grace and so you have this kind of standstill between these two positions and really positions within this this broad overall tradition known as the reformed tradition because our men eNOS the founder of our minion ism was a Dutch reformed theologian so this is a reformed debate going on although those who are Calvinists would not call the Armenians reformed and then in a more limited sense I could see that being true but I say this is kind of a function of our North American context that was settled by so many reformed groups of people and how American evangelicalism is is connected to reform the reformed tradition and so Americans are not very aware of the third Protestant position that does not fall under either of these categories and is not connected to them in that debate and that's the position of Lutheranism I'm not a Lutheran I pastor a Union Church in Germany in Prussia and the 1800s the Lutheran's and the Reformed were merged together and settlers came here and they brought a union faith but a lot of my beliefs are influenced by Lutheranism some good examples of Lutheran theology that would hold a different position are the theological textbooks Christian dogmatix by theodore mueller which is a summary or a shorter version of the four volume dogmatix by francis Pieper and both of these theologians would argue that in formula of Concord one of the key documents especially for confessional Lutheran's who hold to the book of Concord it leaves these matters unresolved and what Lutheran's would say is is what Calvinists and Arminians are doing is they're imposing a false harmonization of these passages they would make the argument that from what they can tell it's not God's purpose to reveal to us exactly how these things harmonize that the Bible isn't about giving us all of the information it's about giving us what we need to know to be saved it's about presenting to us especially Christ and the gift of love of God that is expressed in Christ it's for the purpose of salvation you think about the Bible passage the Scriptures are told we're told are able to make us wise unto salvation and when they're profitable they're profitable for teaching rebuking correcting exhorting and righteousness things like that and it's not about giving us comprehensive knowledge and verses I think about in relation to this or like in Deuteronomy where it says the hidden things belong to God the revealed things belong to us and to our children there's a sense there in which there are things God is not sharing with us but there's enough being shared with us to know that we should be able to trust this God to rest our lives in this God and a part of the walk of faith is not having it by sight but living by faith which is trust that what God has shown us about himself is that he can be trusted and that he's doing what's right another passage I like is were Paul writes to the Corinthians and he says that he's trying to help them to learn not to go beyond what is written there's a certain sense in which going beyond what is written and trying to harmonize and logically work things out can lead to to violence being imposed upon the text now in that situation he was talking about they're putting particular pride in preachers and getting getting caught up in things that go beyond the simple Word of God that were to just rest and what God says and this is the approach I think that the Lutheran's are taking I find within Lutheran theology there's a strong emphasis that that not only were to be careful not to take away from the word of God but wherever it talks about not taking away from the word it also talks about not adding not imposing things upon the Word of God and so I my own my own experience of both Arminianism and Calvinism is that they tend to in this extrapolating things out do violence to the text I I really find that the Calvinist explanation of how they can fit these universalistic passages into their very particular lists ik v uu where they say they emphasize the predestination part then they downplay the the meaning of the word world that he's the sacrifice of atonement for the world and they say well not necessarily everyone in the world what it's talking about is for people from all over the world the chosen who are from all over the world that he's not the sacrifice of atonement for the whole world in the sense that sometimes we might just read that plainly or in the case of that God wants all people to be saved they might talk about differing wills of God or all meaning meaning again people from all parts of the world but not really all people and I think that that does doesn't come off to me as convincing it seems to me a way of trying to shoehorn the Bible to fit a particular system and in the same way I don't find the previa grace that the Armenians speak about when Jesus speaks about the the power that's in the word it's the power not to create a previant grace it's the power to bring forth a new plant of life he talks about the seed being sown but I do agree with the Armenian that that seed being sown the word can be resisted that's the hardened path and it can be choked out until people can fall from faith that's the weeds coming in and killing the life that's growing there and so the the Lutheran position is to hold that there is this unconditional election of God's chosen and that it's eternal it precedes us and yet God is truly working universally for the salvation of all people and you can find him at work and present in the word and the sacraments and trusts that he's equally reaching out to all people through that word in sacrament all the time so that you can trust that when you hear that word it's meant for you in fact I think that's the devastating critique of Lutheranism towards Calvinistic theology is is that it undermines Sola fidei by faith alone the Lutheran response to Calvinism is if you can't trust that if you have to believe as Calvin did in a secret call and that he's not equally there in the word for all people but he's secretly working only on behalf of some then you can't trust that that word is the spirits at work in that word for you and then you need to begin looking in your own life and making the focus on your own holiness and growth and grace for a sense of assurance that you're right with God it's not a looking away from yourself get your eyes off of Jesus is what the Lutheran's would say and I think that's a strong profound critique in the Calvinistic tradition you have this whole stream of treatises and books written on how to find assurance sermons preached on how to find assurance and there's this the Lutheran dogma tissues will say in the reformed tradition it's a people are are told to look inward at these signs of their election signs of their being chosen now there is that a little bit of that stream in the Bible and and Lutheran's would agree that that if you're not living the Christian life that should that should be a wake-up call - maybe I don't have real faith but then the answer is then to immediately look to Christ and trust him and then arise by faith to live a new life and the junior you're looking is always away from yourself to Christ and so this Lutheran position I'm just letting the Bible be the Bible and trusting and not having to have it all resolved in this life to not go beyond what is written to trust that the revealed things belong to us but there are hidden things that belong to God I find I find very convincing and so in that aspect of my belief system I would I would definitely say that I'm more Lutheran than anything else and on other things I follow the reformed a lot especially like in relation to some of the understandings of the sacraments not completely because I hold the Lutheran view that God is completely there and at work for all people in the sacraments and in the word but and then there's got Calvin's commentaries up there I just so much about Calvin that I love and his Institute's as well and much that I draw from them and I think that's one of the things I really enjoy about our church being a union church that I serve so I hope this helps you think a little bit about that maybe get you interested in exploring this third alternative to Calvinism and Arminianism the Lutheran position or and especially that of these people I've mentioned Mueller peeper another guy Caylor or Kohler he wrote a summary of Christian doctrine look up those particular books look up statements by the Missouri Synod Lutheran's or the Wisconsin Center these various confessional Lutheran's and and their explanation of the teaching and the formula of Concord about these things and you'll be introduced to a whole different way of looking at this whole issue

Channel: The Protestant Pastor

Views: 8,959

Rating: 4.685864 out of 5

Keywords: Calvinism vs Arminianism, Calvinism, Calvinist, Arminianism, Arminian, James White, John MacArthur, John Piper, Roger Olson, Norman Geisler, Reformed Theology, Paul Washer

Id: 8zr4y1WuHjk

Length: 15min 19sec (919 seconds)

Published: Thu Mar 01 2018