British SPY Hunted Down Bin Laden & Saddam Hussein: Paul Hughes

how did you become an international spy my Russian is there thereabouts it's it's it's Rusty but I can get by you go into a bit of ivand Drago mode you know what I mean fast flowing intelligence straight to people who are on the front line or making big decisions and saving lives we're listening to Communications and if we hear a threat and I wanted to join there and then when was it then you were in Iraq with binard and Saddam Hussein right okay so room goes quiet Saddam walks in the room the hairs on the back of everybody's neck you just feel the evil coming off him and they're trying to find out where his weapons of mass destruction are correct and you were sent in to find that all the information out about that is there any one point you you provided some really good intelligence to get someone killed [Music] po welcome to the show mate thank you very much Dodge good very much looking forward to this one let roll all the way back where did you grow up and how did you become an international spy ah I'd be telling would well I'm a Ron the valley boy so I'm a Tom Jones sort of karaoke sound alike my accent is still there I'm putting the Posh Accent on today for you I now live in England and have done for many a decade But ultimately I'm a Rond the boy from the South Wales South Wales CF my family here from the mining sort of fraternity and that's where I grew up I grew up in Pont proof nice nice rugby playing AB absolutely absolutely I was an egg Chaser never never a footballer quality Never What's um what was what was what was the the moment you said I actually want to get into the military what was school life like what was where was the point we like that's that's for me right I remember in 1973 three four years of age my mom and dad took me to RAF St a royal Air Force St a they had like an air show day there and uh I remember being there and seeing the lightning jet fighter taking off and basically going vertical with engines and afterburners and the whole ground just shook and you saw the flames and you just I like wow and then I went back to school that following week and you get your picture story book where you got a line page at the bottom and a picture bit at the top so I did a nice picture of the jet taken off and then I said I see myself doing this job type thing and that's where it started so the seed was planted then and in Junior School you can be what you want to be so when people ask you what you want to be I wanted I wanted to be an astronaut yeah I remember my nana and Granddad asking me that and they buying me books on rockets and on the planets and everything else and I knew the planets and I knew solar system fact factoids you know what I mean and it was a bit of a nerd really and but I had this thing then when I joined secondary school went through puberty early and I grew my dad's like an extra from Game of Thrones right I'm 6'4 my dad Towers above me and when I was about 10 or 11 I had a growth SPO and I was n on six foot plus at what is now called year seven it was all form one before it so I was like 11 12 6 foot brilliant I had feet like Pingu right I could lean at 45 degrees into the wind right and not fall over so imagine I was the youngest I'm a June baby so I was one of the youngest in my form I was one of the tallest Bean po gangly kid like a big puppy and I remember getting on the school bus to to the big school I was excited about big school you know going to this school you they had a they had a good gym athletic tracks obbe it sort of cinders type thing outside they had a swimming pool and they had school trips to go skiing and you heard all these great stories and then I got on this double deck of bus that the old ones they had on on the buses you know you the pole at the back thing you offset drivers the ones you jump on and jump off before you pay that's yeah that's the ones so we had these old school buses from ta El B Council as it was in back in Pont PR and we had to travel like three miles to this uh Village called be was up the road from where my dad Liv where I lived and uh I remember you had a new blazer on had a new Satchel you know you brand Spanky new but I'm standing out cuz all the rest of my mates like living in Lily put they're all down here and I'm up there and I get on this bus and you can smell cigarette smoke and of course I didn't know at the time I wasn't Street Savvy to the bigger kids cuz I was hanging around with mates my own age and everything else and these other kids from different Villages being picked up and I got on his bus and it was full downstairs and I thought oh go upstairs and as I got up this up this spiraly staircase you could just the the cigarette smoke was really really strong and I got it loud a lot of noise and it was smoking I thought bloody hell I could see a seat down the front with some other kids I didn't know and I didn't realize my mates hadn't followed me they all stayed downstairs so all a sudden I felt like oh what's that on my arm and I thought I felt like a beast thing was some o it shoved a cigarette through my new blazer and burnt my arm I hav even got to my seat yet and it's my first day and then all of a sudden I felt something wet on the side of my face and some other kid just spat at me you know and I'm thinking this is not I've experienced in my Village growing up it not small village and you know we had good friends i' never experienced bullying or physical abuse and I got I thought I the kid who spot at me I went sort of turned him and I give him a bit of a look type thing I couldn't stand up straight on the upper deck anyway and I sat down at the front of the bus and they left me alone I think they realized that maybe I was siming and they didn't want me to go too far but they done their point and I got off the bus at school uh hadn't been to the school before went to the toilet and Mets were there downstairs who hadn't followed me up and what going on and I was upset and that sort of set the tone mindset wise for me going into that first year where it wasn't cool to be clever you had to play The Gray Man uh and I wanted to do really well but I laugh I sort of lacked that self-belief then that I thought my God is this it you know what's the point and I didn't really want to have that to come home and tell my mom and dad what was going on because I had that personal Pride type thing at that young age and you just kept it all in which is probably the worst thing I could have done and I didn't really excel at school then you know so what made you then choose the military well the military side of things um did my old levels did my a levels failed my a levels I got through on the old levels the old GCSE system I did okay in the subjects where the teachers enlightened you and you saw relevance in it and you could see an end goal for learning those objectives and getting through it and then I was in doing the A- level period Then and people were going to University and choosing courses and I thought I don't know what I want to do I want to see the world I want to travel and I was into my Fizz and we lived on mountains and I'd put a brook sack on put some weights in the back and I'd run over to my n and granddad's about five miles work out there then run back and I was I was watching programs on T like there was the Paris program and there was other things about Marines and you'd watch it and I was enthralled by it but I still had this aircraft thing in my background and I thought I'd really think I could go into the military and do make something of myself get a career going and see how it goes and I went into the army careers office in Cardiff and it was a tri service once it was Army Royal Navy and Royal Air Force and I went and I spoke to a few people and the first person that was there that was available was the royal Air Force career desk I remember this Ginger a Corporal behind the desk and goes help yeah so I sat down I said um yeah I don't know which one to choose really I said I've got these qualifications but I failed my a levels and he was really nice and he went right he goes um well what do you fancy because they were recruiting right way across the board I said I want to go into the flying side of things he goes well you got a tall order there pal because ultimately you haven't got your A Levels he said but you can go you need Commission to go in become a pilot so you need a levels and ultimately you need a degree and I thought well okay he go but another there's another Branch it's called Airman air crew what's it called sorry Airman air crew Airman air crew air crew so you said you do you do the same sort of square bashing course that all the rest of the basic recruits do then you do an additional seven weeks then what was roal Air Force finningley and then you graduate from that as a sergeant air crew so you have three stripes and a legal above it shows your air crew and then you go on to your specialized training and you learn to do anti-submarine Warfare radar detection load Master stuff if you want to go and be stuff then on helicopters or on jinu on Pumas on that type of stuff I thought wow that sounds yeah that sounds pretty cool yeah doesn't it so there I was so I I went away did the selection bits and Bobs went RF big in Hill in Kent and luck more than judgment actually got offered something but when you're 19 then right I was just turning 1819 and I was going out with a girl and I was into my soul music and I had tickets for Luther vanross concert in Wembley that coincided with me starting the Royal Air Force so what does a 19y old s straight to Luther absolutely I went there yeah subsequently sort of it was a stupid spur of the- moment thing I was am in andar in about do I really want to go that I really like to go and do the pilot bit and you know topkin was out at that time and all that type of thing and everybody wanted I thought oh is it really and then I listen to friends around me who weren't military-minded were saying no you don't want to be doing that type of stuff you know you going to you know I was working in Cardiff at the time and and he said you're going to miss all this type of stuff and I kind of listened to the naysayers and and I regretted it instantaneously within a matter of weeks I thought for God's sake you know the relationship was just neither here nor there yeah went to see Luther vanross and that was brilliant But ultimately I went back into the Career Information office same gingerhair corpal was behind the desk and he just saw me because I had to write a formal letter just to say I'm sorry I can't circumstances yeah he goes oh i' like to sort of take that offer up now you youve burnt your bridges in he said you're going to have to at least wait another year and go through the same process and compete against people who are coming in behind you now who are younger may have better qualifications may have more and on the day when you go through selection again they might shine better than you he said so lesson learned there isn't it I said I said I just need I want to get out I want to get away from here and I don't want to listen to the naysayers I felt I was different to those people that I had around me um not NE necessarily my family but uh sort of my friends my friendship group should I say that I had and um he went right okay he said you're physically fit he said you you're robust guy he said you you like your rugby your Athletics your basketball that type of stuff um I said what about physical training instructor he went yeah you could you'd be a good PTI said but there's something about you he said you the way you describe things you're very honest you're very open he said you articulate you put yourself across really really well he said uh how are you with languages I thought where's you going with this well I don't know mate I said I didn't really like languages in school that much he said you want to travel don't you so you're intrigued by travel I said yeah I actually record on VHS wish you were here in the holiday program and watch old Judith Charmers back and I'm there I'm there with a fantastic tan you and I see all these wonderful programs and I'd be there and if I was home and my dad was a copper then he'd be working shift so M was out and I'd put these cassettes on which quite sad looking at the Holiday Program I think most teenage boys be watching porn but no I'm looking been Judith Charmers it's like what the hell's going on here so I'm watching all these places around the world and it was Egypt and Far East and all this type of stuff and I thought yeah I'm intrigued by language I'm intrigued by the culture but I had a bad experience with language learning in school he said so would you say you'd be intrigued to learn language I thought yeah okay yeah I would he goes I'm going to send you away for an mlat test which is what's that modern language aptitude test he said you go up to a place in Rutland a base there he said and that's where we have our language school and then the applied training afterwards I can't tell you much about this train he said but you come out as a junior technician which is equivalent to a lance Jack Lance corporal in the Army he said and it's on a high Pay Band he said but on completion of that you go to Berlin as your first tour I was like liing hell I go to Berlin h live in Berlin and he went yeah says You' be on decent money he said you get qualifications from it and he said basically it's spying and I'm totally in Tom Clancy mode then straight away and I'm thinking I don't see this advertised anywhere why are you suggest he says also he said I only know this from guys I've bumped into in the past but there's also a flying Branch associated with it but you've got to be in to go that way they can't just take you off the street that way and into that onto that aircraft platform doing the Airborne spook the Airborne spy type thing so I was totally intrigued and I wanted to join there and then so I went up to um what was RAF North Lam in Rutland did a few day selection up there I had no idea and they they play you got your headphones on like this and they play you different noises and you're doing wacky word search things looking for symbols and it's a bit like where's Wally and you're looking at different sort of cerc alphabet or sort of Arabic alphabet and you're sort of piecing things together jigsaw wise and you have an interview and I said yeah they said so I was totally honest why you comeing to this trade I said because I turned down air crew um I was totally totally honest with the the officers that were interviewing me and I said but I'm intrigued by this I'm intrigued by piecing things together other cultures travel I said languages you're telling me I've got an aptitude for it I said I didn't realize I had I had a bad experience at school full stop yeah and they were really understanding and they went right okay so what languages do you speak today fluent fluently I Arabic um my Russian is there there abouts it's it's it's Rusty but I can get by yeah and I go also speak pasu as well so pasu had to learn one of the languages in Afghanistan there primarily primarily two languages in Afghanistan pasu and ddy and pasu is the one I was taught so after 911 I got whisked away on a thre Monona so it was a three-month language course there was six of us that were chosen uh from the UK so from different uh agenc as well as Armed Forces sort of entities and we were mushed together sent away learned pashu really really quickly from a native speaker and then we were out and then predominantly then what turned out to be op heric and the different incarnations what's up what's up herck op heric was the operation post 9911 uh it was the ongoing operations in Afghanistan so it was called op heric and you had sort of there's many numbers every year they went up a number basically so all the way through until we pulled out of Afghanistan there was op heric going on in Afghanistan so what age were you when it really kicked off of you was it 911 2001 I would say yeah because my first language that I learned was Russian that's unbelievable like you can go and just learn Russian oh well it I know you're a really intelligent guy I know you've played it down here in your was a Youngster and whatever you but you're a super intelligent human being how easy is it to pick up a language like Russian it's Nails mate it was really really Nails what I found um I was in a Barrack block right and we were in a 10-man room and I was uh when I finally finished the square bashing bit of the training and I went through I was n on 20 and of course I failed my a level so there was a be in in mind I've got a masters in cognitive science now so I know how the brain works and Elite Performance and all that type of stuff but looking backwards I didn't have much white matter going on in my head and that's ultimately the Broadband that connects different spheres of your brain I didn't know how to learn I sort of the stuff that I learned at school at O Level the old GCC standard was stuff that I had the relevance and it was taught in such a way by gifted teachers I could get the point across and it made sense to me and I retained that information but I failed my a levels I didn't apply myself didn't study so I'm in the military then so the physical stuff wasn't a problem rules and regulations wasn't the problem cleaning this doing that running there carrying this not a problem then when you're doing your lessons and you're in learning from native speakers again you're in small class sizes we had a class of about 10 I think something like that on my intake going through and you'd have vocab every day so loads of words every day and you give a book and you look at it and be like A4 sheet of paper a couple of sides they start off with a couple of sheets and then it grows and grows and grows and I'd be there in the Barrack block right so I'll be sat on my bed there's 10 little beds you got a A Ward between you and a chest of drawers and you might have a little desk that's it but the rest of the guys who come straight from a levels or college or uni and they've already got language qualifications yeah okay they can speak French and Spanish and stuff whereas I can ask for a kilo of apples and you know andad initiative type thing that I learned from French when I was about 12 that's the only phrase I could stick in my head and I didn't understand about grammar didn't know what a verb was didn't know what an adverb was cuz I didn't pay attention in the English lessons in school what's adverb well this is it you tell me I don't know you're asking the wrong person my boy My Boy comes back Dad help me English he's talking about nouns adverbs I may your M I'm the same so I've learned I've learned everything the hard way yeah so when I'm teaching somebody now you've broken it down to make it easy for them I go to the lowest comment and know so you can build it up and build it up and it works really so what I find fascinating is that you were in the military and at a young age they want you to learn Russian they want you to learn Afghanistan what's it called pasu pasu pashu and what what Arabic is spoke yeah yeah wow how did you know what you were letting yourself in for when you were learning these languages no not at all it's like the big dangly carrot for me when I joined up very in mind I joined up in ' 89 right so it was uh the Cold War had pretty much come to an end you know you had gorbachov in power and everything else and it was the ster stuff going on etc etc so the former Soviet Union was rebuilding Mother Russia are sort of giving back the satellite countries around it so Ukraine and Kazakhstan and all the rest of the stands around there had their independent their own autonomy to a certain extent and then uh so Russian was being taught and I thought I'm going to Berlin but you could kind of feel in the air that it was all you know it was all Europe and Final Countdown on on on on on MTV and all that type of stuff and you could see East and West coming together in a bit of Harmony really so early 90s we're talking here yeah yeah yeah so literally on my Russian course um the building Wall came down and then we were getting ready to do we did a language training for just over a year and then you go and do a separate uh seven months of training basically six seven months of training which is your applied training which is basically your spy training yeah but layman terms so it's all well and good knowing a language but when you're listening to something you've got to know what they're referring to so they use an unclassified analogy for this it's like if you're going to hords and wanging your car in for service exhaust change whatever if you don't know what they're talking about different components it's just words you're hearing you're not hearing what the fault of your car is is there a bigger problem here if you're over listening to the mechanics so it's that type of thing so you have to know lots of other sort of subject matter as well so if you listening the different things you can make sense of it pretty quick and you can advise accordingly to people who require that immediate piece of the jigsaw where was it in your journey where you were actually were like right you are going to be a spy yeah um the Russian stuff I did when I graduated on the Russian course and it was all you know I was I was utilized for a couple of years on utilizing my language skills so I was utilizing Russian and then I was selected to be on an Arabic interpretor ship so the Russian level I was taught at was at linguist level so you're talking it's about a level standard which is a tall order to go from not to 60 and above that you know and I was taught Russian to be kind of passive because you're there you're listening in we weren't going to be behind on East Berlin talking to Russians and everything else so our passive and my passive skills for Russian are still very good my spoken skills yeah I can go in and put a Russian action on so you start you go into a bit of Ian Drago mode you know what I mean so um so it's twist exactly all right how's it going all right comrad yeah right but exactly but um yeah it wasn't until I did my Arabic and that was an 18month language P language course that was defense School of languages in beinfield just outside and what year we talking is gone from Russian in the early 90s when did you start learning Arabic I started Arabic I was selected for it uh 93 but I was the first there was a handful of us in the Royal Air Force that were selected to go W it before it was always the domain of the army of Royal signals or intelligence court and for reasons various they brought the Royal Air Force into it as well from our intelligence background so I was the first in the roal air force to be on an Arabic interpreter ship without having done any Arabic before so it was a that upon arriving in the defense School languages Arabic just lit my brain up really oh absolutely did you find it easier to learn Arabic than R Russian yeah but there's a scientific reason for that as well but I found Arabic a walk in the park I really really found it really really straightforward it was logical it's fonetic it sort of once you get your head around that it's a different alphabet but so cilic in Russian right but my brain wasn't wired for languages once I've done the Russian CU I finished I started off the Russian course and I failed two progress reports if I failed the third one on the bounce I'm recour back several months and if I don't pick my socks off I'm off so I'll get mustard if they've got a space on some other course so I could have then going become in any sort of other trade who would have me then because I've failed at this what have you got slots in for um but once you learned the Russian the white matter okay brain right my brain if I kept my head open now pull my brain out you got a big gray Walnut yeah all right that's your gray matter that's your physical hard drive but what the hard drive needs to have efficient communication and learning ability is white matter now white matter is is fats and proteins basically but they like Broadband connective tissue that grows around the head but they send messages a 100 times quicker than just the brain on its own right a 100 times quicker so that's why you get some kids in school who are like and the other ones that got lights on there somebody home yeah so con I've done lots of other talks and stuff we'll probably chitchat about that later but it was then on the Arabic course when everything it was like having an epiphany it was like all of a sudden I'm learning a language that found easy not initially you you get you get initial sort of teaing problems but ultimately no I loved it absolutely loved it and it was just a joy and it was so and what's so good is and you also spend time in countries so I spent time in Jordan as part of that course as well and never been to the Middle East before and of course I'm a big blonde 6'4 Welshman yeah and people don't expect me to speak Arabic yeah so when I'm going through we were in a city called zarka which is their second Bigg city outside of Aman yeah and I'd be walking around there in compulsory shorts and desert boots and stuff like that on a T-shirt and I'm walking around and people are looking at me they they haven't seen a big Caucasian person like me walking around and I'm smiling and then I'm going you know they're talking and they're going say which means are you going like oh come on in come on in and and they're getting me and I'm sitting in people's lounges and they're making me tea and coffee and and I can eat and I can drink and and they love that you know and you want another coffee yeah I coffee and you're there and I was sitting in shops I was I was talking to everybody and people were just thinking it was great because they had this connection Wester yeah and I was talking about St we were talking about things and everything from freedom to freedom of speech to democracy so what's it like and I took postcards with me so I had postcards because we were in beckfield right so it's just up the road from Windsor so I got pictures of winds a castle trooping of the color all that type of stuff and I was showing them Bucking in Palace and all this and they were like well you know this is amazing and I'm describing things and I'm showing my family photographs and describing you know this that and the other and they were like wow and there was more similarities than differences so yeah they might have been overwhelmingly you know Muslims whether beely Sunny rather than Shia but you know I'm a boy who's been Christan but I don't really I'm I'm a humanist really I'm describing these things to them and it's like and they were getting it and they were like oh well okay so G gaining this language and having that under your belt the two languag in fact the three languages when was it then you were in Iraq with Barden or Saddam Hussein where was it when you were sent out right okay so we deploying um I went onto the flying side of things that was in 96 and so that Squadron I referred to that you know you had to be in and then go across I got selected manag pass through selection for it onto the aircraft but because I'd worked with the Army and other regiments beforehand as well your name is known so when I finished on my Arabic course and I went to Cyprus and when I was when I was on my Arabic course at beinfield there were other guys coming through from the regiment that were on language courses as well orbe it shortened versions so they could get a bit of a taster and off they go deploy to the different four corners of the world so to speak uh so I was aware of them they were aware of me so therefore when things were required to do other stuff and other deployments they would request from my boss could they release young H to go and do this that and so that's what happened so when um the weapons inspection stuff came about in during the time of Sadam so Saddam Hussein in Iraq there was a weapons inspection yeah the United Nations the special commit United Nations special commission unscom it was called and they're trying to find out where his weapons of mass destruction are correct and you were sent in to find that all the information out about that it would been it had been going on for a few years before I joined on to the teams um and then I got attached to the team as a TP As an interpreter because my language skills and of course they need to have people who they can trust so they can listen so you're not employing a local to do it somebody who's totally independent who can actually that's doing that so what they found out from that and my first day flying into Iraq now I've done operations around Iraq before when I was doing stuff with the Squadron Etc but when you're flying into a place that you've been monitoring it's really peculiar because you kind of know it pretty well yeah but you're there and then you found flying in uh just to an Airbase just outside of Baghdad and then we had to go in and go through clear customs and stuff but at that time Sadam had banned Brits and Americans from being on the teams because there was about various violations that he was claiming etc etc so he banned Brits and Americans of being on his team did you say for being on the weapons teams the coming in he he didn't want them on okay and then the next team in they had me yeah I'm Welsh yeah so my un passport place of birth Wales So and I've got to then explain but when I was on the aircraft going in and I was I had two other interpreters with me I had a guy from Lebanon and I had a guy from Tunisia and I thought well there's three turps on this team were going in here and we were just chatting in the back of the the Hercules going in and um my chief in inspector alongside me turned to me and said Paul I have an idea he said how about you don't speak Arabic for the first few days and just just see what happens cuz I don't think they're going to realize that you understand I thought yeah we'll give it a go so we let the the Arab Nationals deal with the interpreting things and we'll just take it from there so of course we land at the airport we're going through customs and the guys are looking up and I can understand what they're talking about and then the guy goes looks at me and he's looking he's looking up and everything else he went wills and I went uh Sweden and you went huh some big blonde yeah look like a viking so he just lets me in so Bo I'm in so I thought oh this could go wrong I don't know I'm winging this a little bit here so that was my first kind of for into sort of doing stuff on the ground thinking about a seat in my pants type thing and then we we went to Baghdad and I remember we had um Richard Butler was with us who was the overall guy in charge of the weapons Inspection Team it's a big Australian guy Larger than Life character we all met up and we had to go into this briefing thing in their version of the home office and we went in this BR and there's obviously big posters of Sadam Here There and Everywhere ornate pillars and all sorts of stuff and uh we went into this big briefing room and I said who's coming to brief us and they went oh we think it's going to be TK aiz who's the foreign minister is going to be briefing us today so therefore they're all running now we with that Saddam walks in Saddam walks in when you Saddam walks in the room so we're looking you know there's waj com in the room goes quiet and these uh Republican guard generals walk into all regalia big chaps mean looking people and they walk in and had this sort of top table type thing and they were going to sit behind with the microphones on and where they and I'm right at the back of the room and there's about 50 of us in there there's the teams that already in Baghdad there as well and where the new team has just come in so we're there and see com h fire and I'm kid you not the hairs on the back of everybody's neck and Harry Potter wasn't out at the time but when you see the scenes of the ders of wiing around and everything else and you suck the life out of the room you just feel the evil coming off him you know and it was and you came in and he and it was really like you know we're there and we're in a cold sweat and I can see season guys in front of me and I can physically see Goosebumps on them and I'm thinking Jesus this is a whole different world you know so that was my first day in Baghdad basically so and what was your how long were you out there for oh we varied so we we staged in in bahin and we flew in and then we shuttle back and forth the halfway house so the initial time I was there I was there for think it was two months yeah and then you sort of you shuttle back and forth and doing other bits and Bubbles associated with the overall mission because actually you're sued to the United Nations then so you're not actually UK military you are second to the United Nations so you don't have any conflict or everything else I was there ply I wasn't I didn't have any Mission regarding spying anything like that at all I was there as an interpreter but as an interpreter you interpret what's going on around you it's more than just the language so therefore literally on day two when we're going on our first inspection we're trundling out somewhere and we got the big white Jeeps with un on the side and things like that and we're there and we had we had these guys that are with us uh who are our minders and they were called nmd which stands for National Monitoring directorate so they were basically saddam's henchmen and they were trying to find out where we were going so they could tip off the people in front of us to move things do things and all that type of stuff and we'd be going out to this uh this site and I think we were at some sort of educational sort of establishment and I got out the back of the Jeep and I'm sorting out some kit and uh I can hear these guys talking in Arabic and they're talking about demonstration and they're talking about arranging it and they're talking about getting it sorted out and do it on the back and then bring the uh the vehicle around the front and we'll move that out there I'm thinking hey they're moving stuff yeah they're actually moving stuff here so of course it helped massively because I was just staying passive I was just staying quiet but understanding everything they're saying but I was interpreting the situation what was going on so therefore that's how we went on from there then so it worked wonders and uh it took him a while to realize that who I was uh when they realized that I was a Brit I wasn't Scandinavian and the fact that I could speak Arabic and we were flying in a helicopter and um we had a failure uh the helicopters we were flying in um were un helicopters they were huies like ones you see in the Vietnam War films and they were on loan from the Chilean Air Force we had Chilean Air Force pilots and air crew flying them and uh which was an experience you know you see the huies on war films growing up and everything else all of a sudden you're flying over the Shia Marsh areas in southern Iraq with the doors open and you got your feet on the skis and things like that it's a peculia sort of thing but um we were in the aircraft and we had a fuel pump failure so we had we had land and it was during Ramadan and we have an Iraqi pilot on a jump seat alongside us as well who's also monitoring the comms and if he gets wind of where we're going finally then he can sort of radio down and tell the teams on the ground from the Iraqi side of things where we're heading and uh we landed and we landed at an air base and there's a lot of flapping around us he didn't want us to land but we were coming in because we had a problem we had land so it was a pan it wasn't the MayDay but we had to land as soon as we possibly could safely and it was a minor fault with the aircraft and it was rectified in next the nor time but we got off the aircraft and they had this Iraqi major alongside me who was a helicopter pilot and he loved himself and they had this ground crew coming out to the helicopter and he was shouting at and he he lit a [ __ ] in the in proximity of an aircraft you know and all the rest of it on on a on on a helip pad basically everything else and he was a bit arrogant and he's chatting and I thought was in that hanger over there and and uh he said oh I don't know let's go and have a look and I thought this guy's Dynamite he just wants he's just all bravado and wants to show off and of course we're right going across here and he's just telling these guyss to get out the way in Arabic and everything else and um as we get there we can actually see there's aircraft in the hanger I could recognize the aircraft I realize what was there I could see that they had different bits and Bobs on them so it's sort of you're using your skills then but we got back on the helicopter we took off and um it failed again and they were trying to the Chileans were trying to tell this Iraqi guy what they thought the problem was and everything else and his with a pump and this that and the other and I went M and he went he went thanks yeah I thought oh yeah I've given the game over yeah you know everything else and then we landed back in Baghdad and I I was on I swapped over on some different teams and um they went yeah okay maybe we get you back at the back rain pretty quick just in case there's any repercussions here or anything else or they say anything but I was a low back in did you have any times when you were on these missions where you were close to losing your life yeah yeah yeah um what we had um literally um the we stayed in a place our headquarters was in a building called a canal Hotel it wasn't a hotel but it was the old Canal hotel and it was basically it was an unscom and also UNICEF joint buildings was UN building with un Personnel in there uh it was guarded by Iraqis and um but of course there was troubles over there as well and there was a a lot of anti-western sentiment and uh I've been in the cafeteria uh one day uh just getting your lunch and as I went out the cafeteria went on the stairs it was a th the hell's that glass tinkling and everything else and there was another big sort of thud and people running out and somebody launched an RPG through the cafeteria the glass and smashed it but the the Warhead didn't detonate so it was more of a it was I think it was a deliberate act just to sort of wobble us yeah rather than to actual detonate but it sort of brings it home then that you're thinking what youell you know so I'm upstairs I of my whatever it was stew goat do and sort of I know so what was so back in Iraq you got Saddam Hussein yeah fighting against Iran is that right well they what was going on there and why why did we want to be taking Saddam Hussein out of the equation was he just flaunting it saying he's going to Take On The World he's going to put missiles everywhere and well it sort of comes from the invasion of Kuwait doesn't it and he wanted money from Kuwait and the Gulf War he claimed that that were that the Kuwaiti lands were actually his and Iraqi and wanted to claim that back but there in the 80s you had the 10year war so Iraq was against Iran and and there was chemical weapons used then yeah proven uh by Iraq then Sadam actually used them and used them on his own people as well against the Kurds who were in the north of Iraq and he's also used them against the Shia Marsh people in the South so uh you know he evil yeah uh so there was we knew there were weapons that were nasties as we term them that were used there before and um but no it was difficult times difficult so what was your what was your actual Mission then to expl listen interpreter but were your mission to go and find out what weapons he's got why would he allow the UN into his country it was part of uh a mandate that was the UN Security Council started un SC United Nations special commission with that very mission to go in and to show to for him to prove to us that that he didn't have any weapons of mass destruction because chemicals have been used before why would he care because he wanted to have sanctions lifted off his country he wanted to start existing and being seen on a global stage and everything else but the Western governments deemed that he had weapons of mass destruction or had sort of covert projects going on from everything even to Nuclear So when you have something like that in close proximity and he's used chemicals before is he going to ramp it up is it going to get worse he had long range missiles as well is he going to launch like they had during um the first Gulf War when they were launching scud missiles and hitting Israel you know it you don't it doesn't take much to work out that all of a sudden you got a Tinder Box there for a World War I yeah apocalyptic sort of scenario really so the UN was trying to sort of say right we're going to come in we're going to inspect things we're going to you know we want you to comply so we can show things and then do it like that and there was of course there was resistance yeah you know was it a successful Mission from a weapons inspection perspective from what I know um yes the people that were there were brought from all different all different corners of the world so the one of the first teams I was on we had people from Ukraine France Norway New Zealand uh South America North America so we had an Eclectic mix of specialist people who understood wmd weapons of mass destruction and from what we know we were going through we were forensically going through the data uh we were when you all got boots on the ground you can't do everything uh using standoff intelligence from collection you know signals intelligence that type of stuff electronic intelligence you have to have boots on the ground because things can happen things can be moved around things can change so we did find you know there were weapons mass destruction that were found there that were destroyed safely and of course different regulations um I think what came out of it was when the war came after it so when telk occurred opic which was the invasion of Iraq by uh Western forces basically what was that called opic opic okay yeah so when that happened and they went through and they finally got Saddam remember that they pulled him out of the hole etc etc what year we talking here when we got Saddam out the hole I can't even remember but I was oh hang on that was 2003 when it t 2003 okay 2003 so about he he was on the run for a little while he was hiding under the ground when they got him there he was when they got him yeah were you working closely with the SAS SBS Special Forces to give them intelligence to go and get sedam not from a un perspective no okay no no no no no the UN you report the UN that's it yeah so no I didn't do anything like that but um when I was doing my other role when I finished with the UN and you sort of you're collecting intelligence stands for UK PLC effectively for our military forces so we're collecting you know this there's no tradecraft being given away here nothing classified that you can't get on the career's website but the aircraft I was flying on you're literally hoovering up intelligence and then you're finding those nuggets of information that you need to pass to a battlefield Commander that can then be disseminated which ultimately saves lives yeah and you know gets our guys out of Harm's Way and gives us indication of where things are that's it did you enjoy what you did yeah yeah and how many years you in total 23 years 23 years I did in total yeah and that's 23 years not all doing the same role in the RAF yes it was Royal Air Force and that's what were you doing how would you explain to The Listener what you did over those 23 years well I I went onto the air crew side of things and then for reasons various I peeled off that and I was put into an instructional role and the instructional role incus special projects and that's when you start dealing with the other guys from other regiments Elite regiments and you're doing all sorts of stuff and then I was very working very closely then with uh counterterror people in London after the seven s bombings um because again we were having people who conducted the 7 seven bombings there was obviously linking linkages to Terror organizations that we were already dealing with in the Middle East and Beyond so we had a good understanding of that so I was brought down then uh to sort of assist with the training of the new recruits that were coming in for people working out of London and doing that type of thing so that was uh but that was interesting wasn't it it was it was great and it was the first time I sort of went across and done stuff working with counter Terror people in special Branch type offices remember we were doing Wind training exercise and I was working with um a dog handler police dog handler and the dog you know you see the dogs that they have um certainly the Special Forces dogs they tend to be all Belgian malir Belgian Shepherd dogs you know they are Mega brain you know they're super intelligent oh mate you got to be careful so it turned up we rocked up at this place and I was in South Kensington area and I met my mate and uh this this new colleague I was going be with and I'm sort of showing him things of what I'm doing from an electronic intelligence background Etc and then I'm obviously doing stuff about basic things about Arabic and how to identify uh people that I can see spot as possible Badin yeah wrongin you know and um so we met and we were met in this in this sort of coffee shop I was expecting to see like a Malamar or something I saw this guy I thought well that's him there and I looked and he had a pink lead and at the end of this pink lead it was an apricot miniature poodle so I'm there going this is a wind you know so I looked at him I went m is that your dog he own it for somebody else is the proper one turning up in a minute he goes no mate this is Trixie I hello this dogs like a circus dogs up his back legs and wants a fuss and everything else and I went hello I went seriously that's a police dog he went yeah he said poodles are really clever mate yeah they are I went okay I said I'll take your word for it I said Manana had a poodle I said yeah yeah I can remember he was switched on cookie but okay I said but a bit obvious he goes no it's too obvious isn't it he said it's it's draws attention to itself but people don't think that's a sniffer dog yeah so all right so we were doing some bits and Bobs we had training exercises going on so had new recruits that were doing stuff in that environment police people and all type of stuff and I had some of my guys from my team uh that had I loan down to London to do a few uh jobs and training jobs with them and we were doing basic [ __ ] which is reconnaissance and you're following people and doing things and sort of you're hoovering up intelligence regarding roughly what roughly what year we talking here this is after this is after 77 so that was well that was about 2006 I was down there okay so I was down there then and uh what was funny was we were we were outside a rather well-known store okay in nightsbridge and um the exercise was going on in large crowds and that's what you want you got to follow PE people in a crowd and doing all sorts of stuff and it was exciting it was it was useful for me because I had really done some aspects of that working with the police before it's different sort of terminology and things like that anyway I might have to go go and take a Jimmy riddle so I'm left holding this dog on a lead right now I've not seen this dog work yet uh it's sort of we're a day into what we've been doing and and we just walking around with this dog looking like a gay couple all right which say you know we you've got this guy this dog which is rather Infinate we got a pink lead you know and we don't look uh we're both big guys but we don't look suspicious you know what I mean we part of the London scene you know what I mean you know what it's like mate and um so so there and all of a sudden we had um an Arab family walk past in sort of ladies in their burkers fully veiled and a Gentleman out front walking in front as is the norm and as these ladies walk past this dog went bunkers so it's barking it's looking up at me it's spinning around with his back legs and I'm thinking hang on this dog's training to sniff out all sorts of bits and Bobs it's going nuts as he's go past so tensions were still quite you know it was rather recent after 77 anyway so we're we're there and I think hell hell what am I doing so I'm sort of on the radio calling him back I said mate you need to get about you something something something's Brewing you right so he comes running back and uh he said mate what's going on I told him and you can see looking at the dog and everything else you oh mate you know what that is I said yeah M I still got eyes on mate they're still over there I said but I want to know first and foremost what that tell is what the dog is doing he said M it's be really really serious I was like why you tell me that he said that dog needs a [ __ ] you are I said you wed me up he said mate you're on the pavement I went yeah he said the dog's train not to have a [ __ ] on the P it wants to go in the gut or wants to find a bit of grass so she's giving you a five minute warning I I'm going to blow you so get me off this all right said so what they doing is there a tell for the but he goes yeah yeah but is covert yeah so the dog will do a quiet ta it's not going to bark and Yap when someone's walking past you it's going to give you a little nudge so to speak you know and then sort of go over there mate you know not spinning around going I need that [ __ ] you know so so yeah so it's not all you know when you were when you were doing that in London obviously the height of everything going on in in 2001 and then 77 77 bombings and terrorist attacks happening what were you looking out for what sort of what sort are you looking out for in a terrorist back then cuz we're talking what 15 years ago 16 years ago yeah you're looking you're looking for needle in aack really but what you find is is that the people that we were getting in the UK at that point that were being investigated for possible links to extremism extremist Acts or planning them or Googling them that type of stuff you know they're very really really inexperienced they wet behind the ears they were so if they're going to be doing something the way I look at it is that when you see it in one of the born identity films when I think you're in waterl station and the guy starts moving and moving quickly and Shifty and all the rest of it it stands out so everybody else in London is sort of in London mode isn't it you know head down else you know you speak to somebody on a tube and they [ __ ] themselves you know it's literally so if you're looking for somebody if someone's [ __ ] around all the time literally as in moving theire looking checking for things looking for CCTV looking for things like that you can spot you can spot them and they stand out and it's like if you're looking for a new car or whatever if you're looking up I don't know Toyota Yaris all a sudden you start noticing toot yis wherever you go if you it's your Ford Mustang you go if you're looking for Ford Mustangs if you're looking for somebody who's looking suspicious that's looking for CCTV camera or other things that can sort of give away their footprint they stand out and you can spot them and the norm but you got to find you got to work out that pattern of Life what that pattern of life looks like on a daily basis so you need to be that's where you get good Bobby in and the cops are telling me things so I was learning from them they were saying you know when you got good Bobbies on the beat know the lay of the land yeah so if they're walking around in wherever part of London they know who the players are they know what's going on they recognize faces they know behavior and and all that type of stuff so I learned a lot from those guys as well like I did the stuff from my time in the military at that point it was like an overlap then doing working with the counter Terror a lot yeah as well and we were then doing stuff with them and we'd bring them up and we put them in flight simulators and show them from a flying a plane perspective but who in the flight simulators the security officers from from London people like that and other agencies and government departments and we' we get them and we'd break it all down as in you know basically showing them how 911 was done and you know people think you know can all close our eyes we can see those those awful scenes in New York and the planes going in but ultimately when you're flying a plane how quite straightforward it is when you know the very basics of things so it's good to put that in people's minds in so they can understand the risk and that when you're doing a risk management Matrix type thing then for an event and you're you you're with the balma sevens and stuff like that you know youve got to put in a risk management matri basically says you got all these C and everything from insurance perspective and all that type of stuff well we've got to do that from the government then created a thing called Center for protection National infrastructure cpni came on the back of all this and basically they advis about counterterror to everybody who has a an establishment or contribute something to UK PLC and that's where it's grown out of that so after the 7 s bombings I think UK has done really really well yeah and you got you got a jtac which stands for joint terrorist joint terrorist analysis Center yeah uh they're in London as well and they are really I I think we do it really really well I was just about to say that do you think the British do it better than anyone around the world oh we don't yeah okay what intelligence iist and everything yeah I think you know you read about um the five eyes community and I've heard it on the podcast before you guys have been talking about it so that's you know the America UK Canada New Zealand and Australia after the second world War it was these English speaking countries basically that got together and said look we're not going to get caught with our pants down again let's divvy up the world from intelligence perspective we'll collect it on these countries you collect it on these countries and then we'll basically share our intelligence at a decent level so if something's kicking off over here we'll tell you if something's happening for a gun to affect us and vice versa so that's ostensively what it is so um I'd say from the five eyes really have it off Pat you know they really have it done how quick are the Met police when something happens in London with a terrorist attack rapid mate yeah really rapid yeah yeah yeah there's been a lot of slagging of a met and everything else but the encounters I've had with met police and the stuff I still do yeah um involving met police I can't fault them personally they're very very industrious they they care yeah it's just it's it's a beast in itself really isn't it and you're always going to have a cultural change and things like that and the whole London is changing in front of your eyes all the time you know uh as it is around the country full stop you know you have different matrixes different people coming in Immigration things that people adjusting the world's in a bit of a in a bit of a termoil state it's it's in uproar at the moment I went to London last week a couple of weeks ago took my little nine-year-old boy there my wife and we took him around Big Ben we took him into all the sort of the the big wheel the London ET Westminster bridge I felt as a Londoner going back to London I felt really uncomfortable M I was on Westminster Bridge it was packed of just tourists Big Ben packed London Eye packed and I just had this thing about me looking around going anyone could pull out a massive machete anyone could set off a bomb anyone could drive through the crowd it was just a really weird weird feeling and maybe I'm overthinking it but I just didn't feel very very comfortable whatsoever and that's a Londoner going back to London which your R toown but I didn't feel like it was my hometown I've got to say and I was quite glad to get out of there no just that just those moments around those tourist areas you know something could just pop off instantly it was it was heaving and that's why I ask that question how quick like if something did happen how quick a counter terrorist old bill would turn up how long would it take them you got teams on standby all the time so they're ready to rock and roll yeah yeah but you can't you can't account for a lone wolf doing something like that a van you know the car ramming into a crowd type thing somebody pulling out a machette somebody when's the last time we had you know when people wrap around bombs around them they suicide bomb I had a guy on here called Roy Lana who who fought off the suicide bombers on London Bridge yeah great proper hero of a human being and he tells his story when was the last time we've had anything like that I don't want to speak too soon I'm touching words and whatever you but it seems to have gone quite quiet quite quiet over the last good few years do you think that's all been put to bed or do you think that could just pop any time it's not put it's not put to bed it it's a sign of if you listen to any of the talks done by uh the the head of MI5 and you get routine sort of talks and saying that we've had we have taken care of x amount of sort of planned attacks that were there ready to rock and roll and they've been taken out basically so we have got a really good system in place but you can't account for everything and ultimately there will be things that will get through and it's hard it really really is hard it's hearts and Minds hearts and Minds is key yeah um and I think what's key from our perspective is and what I know from the stuff when I've done when I've been working in Baghdad working around Iraq working in different areas in the Middle East which were Black Flag areas the Black Flag areas are ones which are usually Shia and they're normally up for a bit of a Jihad of a bit of a personal Strife uh personal sort of mission that's what a Jihad is really it's not always meaning a political Uprising or military sort of sort of mission or anything else it's a it's a personal uh sort of goal to get better and is that what Jihad is Jihad is yeah yeah so You' got to get it in context okay so somebody says I'm on a Jihad a Jihad could be go I'm going to the gym three days a week I'm on a diet doing this I've you know I've given up chocolate you know given up chocolate for Lent if you're a religious person I wonder if you asked 100 people in the street what a g had St away its military it would be a terrorist related type thing someone's going to come and go yeah bang boom and that type of thing so it's not you got to take it in context um what are your thoughts on police in this country and the government knowing that there are terrorists on the streets and still living in our country from what I from my experience um I can't go into the wise and WF force and everything else but our intelligence systems are the best in the world so I'm not saying that we've taken care of the situation for good we haven't it would be it would be silly to say something like that but we're probably in a really safe country yeah right now or as safe as it can be um so that's the start so as a dad yourself you know you're going to London with your nine-year-old boy and I'm the same you know my kids are all grown up now but I remember giving them uh you can say it to my youngest daughter you know she was I don't know about 10 and we go shopping somewhere and um and she'd tole off with a a brother or a friend or whatever i' give her a Rendevous point an RV point i' also give her an alternative RV point so there's not many dads that tell their kids you know INE if we don't meet back here outside clear's accessories all right at this time on this bench there might be a bit of a crowd there could be something if that's the case then meet me outside there if I'm not there but every half an hour after that go to that point wait there yeah so it' be further away from the actual Center so to speak but with plenty of cameras and everything else so I I've taught that to my kids since they were little so they still do that now so they'll always have an alternative RV and basic where were you on the day the Twin Towers oh the planes crash into Twin Towers okay uh I just come back from an exercise uh the day before and uh I was home on leave and I was fitting a kitchen okay uh making a mess of it and then uh I remember my wife coming in and saying we've seen what's going on and I didn't know CU I had my CD Discman on with some good tunes and my headphones in and I was beavering away doing kitchen stuff and put a Telly on in the kitchen CU we were quite poshed and we had a Telly in the kitchen and put it on and you get all you know you could see it and then I got the phone call straight away pretty much my boss to get back into work having a brief and then in next not time I was away on my pass du course wow that was it it was that quick wow it was that quick and then from then what about Bin Laden a summer Bin Laden yeah what was going on with you some have been Laden and happening around that time well straight away the P du course you know the way we were briefed by my boss at the time he said right there you've been selected you're off on a pass du course um and and pashu is Afghanistan one of the languages in Afghanistan yeah mainly for sort of the southern states really and sort of around Cal kaha Helman province that sort of stuff um but it was the language that a lot of the senior Talib were using senior Taliban sort of officials were using and conversing it um so we were told that we were told our mission was um we got to find the jigsaw pieces that get Bin Laden yeah that was our that why we had to learn it three months quickly so as quickly as possible the guy that was instructing us was a former Taliban doctor believe it or not he was coerced into the Taliban uh he lived in cabal and his family had a farm Now cal if you been a cabal I've been there many times now and um caral is surrounded by mountains and through the middle it's got a mountain range as well and you got Baba Gardens in the middle and you got a little sort of Valley that goes through the connects basically the two sides of carbal and uh my instructor who taught me his family had a farm in the middle small small small holding basically but the Taliban came on to his Taliban alider elements because they were pretty much smushing together at that time and they came on to his farm his family's farm and basically squatted and took up the space and said yeah you know we're here now and uh we're going to set up and use your facilities and this that and the other and uh my friend and colleague who was teaching us he was a doctor in a hospital in Carbell and they realized he'd come home every day with his doctor's bag and everything else and they said you're now our doctor okay so you basically you don't say no yeah so he was dealing with sort of amputations gunshot wounds usual sort of things you know that they were experiencing over there uh but he had a major issue with that he didn't agree with the Taliban he didn't agree with the Sharia sort of way that they were going to wanted to do things and eventually he managed to escaped to the UK and he escaped via the red cresant which is like the Central Asian version of the Red Cross he came to the UK our security operators realized he was coming because of the red cresant alerting him speaks perfect English speaks Arabic speaks Dar speaks pasu obviously a qualified doctor as well and so when he taught us p do from as quickly as you possibly could he also put stuff in our heads about the culture and also about the mindset of a Taliban operative of an Al-Qaeda guy the al-Qaeda guys weren't always Afghan the al-Qaeda guys were brought in you know during the 80s uh in early 90s you had the mujah the muah is a follower of a Jihad that's where the root of the actual word comes from Jihad mujah is the plural of that so you had lot of Mahin coming from different Arab Brethren from around the world that were coming to fight to get rid of the Soviet Union out of there in the 80s and of course when Western and NATO forces are there for what was OB herck they were fighting against them as well because they wanted out they wanted those heartlands to be basically their Citadel for their new Sharia law they wanted to have their own sort of caliphate really which the Taliban have now but the al-Qaeda elements were attaching to them and trying to get and doing their training bases there ET what's the difference explain to us what's the difference between a Taliban and an alqaeda right Taliban Talib uh is a a religious scholar and when the Taliban was founded the Taliban was founded to OU the uh Soviet Union in the 1980s when the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan you had an uprising and then you had this uh new group called the Taliban that's when they came to sort of fruition and at the time the Western governments perceived them to be a force for good because they were outing the Communists out of the country and they wanted this that and the other and they so on initially and they were supported if you read books on this Etc I've read a lot of books on Taliban supported by CIA supported by other agencies etc etc providing them with different weapon systems like a stinger uh which was surface to a you know basically a missile system a man pad system and um so who was supplying these to the tban then different agencies different agencies CIA were in there providing them so American CIA were passing weapons in and what you tend to find now is there's always proxy wars going on you know so you don't get what do you mean by that axy war is like you don't get thank goodness uh you don't get a state on state War so you're not getting uh UK against Russia you're not getting United States against China and everything else but what you tend to get are these other battles that they then like Russia using Wagner group yeah in in Ukraine so they're using different people to do their dirty work for them so what you find then you have the Taliban pushing former Soviet Union out of Afghanistan but they're then being supported and funded which is well documented in books and Osama Bin Laden is Taliban Osama bin no Assan Bin Laden is the leader of al-Qaeda alqaeda so he's a Saudi he's from Saudi Arabia by birth yeah from a very very wealthy family in Saudi Arabia but he was pretty much the Rogue child effectively who went to the extreme side of things and wanted the al-Qaeda and the sort of an Islamic caliphate etc etc so the difference between Al-Qaeda and Taliban is what Taliban is predominately Afghanistan yeah okay and it's there for Afghanistan it was there to sort of fight in Afghanistan and to get rid of the Soviet Union and then the Taliban then morphed and you can imagine when the T the tables are then turned all of a sudden the people providing support to the Taliban changed change okay so all a sudden they're no longer in favor with Western Government so you're going to get other governments coming in and providing weapons to them as well so it's again it's another proxy sort of alqaeda al-Qaeda they're pretty much they're still in existence where they changed the morph now so they're not the power they used to be what came to fruition after Al-Qaeda was Isis yeah so it's basically it's like it's fund fun fundamentalistic uh franchising so it's from the same people they came from the same they got a similar kind of belief or system and alqaeda is what country alqaeda isn't a country no no I know it's not a country but where are they from to build up Al-Qaeda they come from all different um Arab heartlands really or Islamic heartlands really and those same ones that same heartlands there is that's where Isis was born yes pretty much and you got Al-Qaeda at the moment are very strong in Yemen yeah so that country is still fractured uh because of troubles there so you've still got a very strong Al-Qaeda base in Yemen which is next to om man and obviously at the bottom tip southern tip of Saudi Arabia wow so it's it's a complex subject it really is a complex subject so you so go just going back to your RF days were you flying planes I was flying in a plane in a plane so I Ed across to the Flying side to air crew so you do do some flying training so you do like a rightand seat course so you learn how to fly you learn how to sort of do the navigation and all the rest of the stuff but ultimately I'm in the rear of an aircraft and I'm listening yeah okay what sort of mad plane you been in oh you've been in everything no not necessar you mentioned Hercules earlier you mentioned yeah pumers tell me what tell me what's out there oh KY uh yeah you name it in the Royal Air Force infantry i' probably flown in it I even had to go in a fast jet so I've been in a [ __ ] which is one of the Red Arrows type things so that was that was that was fun but yeah you done all the transport stuff like hercy c17 a400m which is the Atlas which is a capable aircraft now so done a lot done a lot of stuff for the Americans as well so I've flown in them um my favorite is a chinuk 11 brilliant you know the old Walker Walker so that that that and so tell me tell me your world today Paul what's your world today this has been a fascinating story of what you've gone through there guarding the spying world before we finish off yeah did you is any one point you you provided some really good intelligence to get something over the line to get someone killed yeah I won't comment on that but yeah that was the job that was the job you're identifying ultimately where they had to save lives so if we've got our forces on the ground or we're we're listening to Communications and if we hear a threat we've got to let that person know there's a threat so by that by doing that we've saved you know and I'm standing on the shoulders of giants here because my old Squadron and the other regiments that I've been Affiliated to etc etc they're still doing their jobs today and they're brilliant they're talented bunch and when I went on to those into the into that into the Squadron onto different regiments and things like that you're standing on the shoulders of giants yeah who are people who have gone there before and they showing you the ropes and you get taught in a way that is relevant and you get it and when you get it and it's not um it's an environment as well in the military you find where you can share information and even if you're a new be you can share that with somebody who's senior because you might see something or realize something or grasp something what I found when I first went on to the Squadron I went on to I was one of the youngest sergeants on there uh and I was the only Sergeant I think that went on to there that hadn't done the Berlin tour before I was like the new first of the new Bunch coming through that hadn't done that cold war bit of working on the ground in Berlin and all that type of stuff so it was a different kind of thing and and then all of a sudden we had this thing called asymmetric Warfare they call it so it's not like a state on state thing you got these little skirmishes going on and you need fast flowing intelligence straight the people who are on the front line or making big decisions and saving lives so that's ultimately what we're in we're in a saving lives business and um getting it right getting it right with zero collateral damage you know you're sort of it's it's tight fair play fair play to you yeah and I know there's some stuff you can't say oh there everything I've said just now it's been a nightmare when I said all come on this on on the podcast and I thought holy hell so I've had to speak to people with clearances and everything else and and say can I mention and they can go yeah you can but I said well that's been documented in this book oh yeah yeah can see that but you know you don't give away any sop standard operating procedures technical capabilities yada yada you know and everything I've reiterated here the stuff you can read in books that have been published or you can get it on Ker's websites how would you describe what a spook is a spook well I heard spook for the first time when I was I was flying with the US Navy and I did a little stint with them doing the same role as what I was doing in the Royal Air Force and I was working with the US Navy guys and they went oh man you're a spook I was like are taking the piss you you know is that a good thing or a bad thing I don't know a spook what's a spook you know and they went hey man you're like an Airborne spy you Spooks Seventh Son of a Seventh Son it's like it's something written somewhere stupid you know and I went I hav't got a clue what you're talking about mate he goes no basically we call ourselves Spooks everything else and then not long after that they had Spooks on BBC and that was all MI5 type stuff and all a sudden it became regular sort of parant in the UK that oh if you're work for five you're a spook or if you're doing stuff regarding buying in the military you're a spook you know so that's how it's and what are you doing today for a pound out for a pound out today I've been out now I did 23 years in the military for the last 12 years I set myself up um I was signed to age 55 in the military so I could have stayed on longer I could still be serving now uh but we' done everything and I've been doing the special projects bits and Bobs and working with uh other regiments etc etc and counter Terror stuff and I've always had an entrepreneurial kind of spirit to me and I've always wanted to try new things and I thought I'm going to be repeating myself um if I go down that route again and go and do this and go and do that uh so I set myself up as a limited company and at that time there was a thing called becoming an interim manager was all the thing and you get get get paid a good daily rate and you go and do a consultancy stuff so I thought it was defense consultancy I can do I was qualified uh as a forensic engineer as well so I did a Masters on that type of thing before I left the military so I was all clued up on that as well and I could do a daily rate that also I thought I'm I was doing the talks as well I was going into schools before I left the veil secrecy got list lifted off what I was doing and we could say that I I could speak these languages and I've been there and done that without the giving the game away and I went into a into a a pro which is pup referal Unit A bostel for what a better word and I did a talk there and I did a talk in a few other schools and the kids really got it and I was there and I'd go in in uniform I I I was a chief instructor at the time on a base um doing the special project sort of scene and if I wasn't doing uh training Etc and I I had a bit of downtime then I would go and do a bit of extra stuff in the community I go and do a talk so I go into this Bost do a talk go into the schools do a talk and ultimately I was talking to naughty boys and getting up to realize that actually learning languages is cool it isn't all about you know buying your kilo of apples and asking for directions and stuff because what you're doing you're formulating this white matter in your head 100 times quicker thinking so when you got your fast Broadband in your head you can apply that to anything so subsequently gone on I've done that with Elite athletes I've done it with rugby players professional footballers I've done it with uh you got one of the guys I'm working with now so you got Liam burn who's the British Wings suit Champion so we're doing stuff with Liam and it's all about being the best person you can be but cognitively and that drives everything behind that all about the Mind people don't think about it oh no mate it's basic I grew up it's all about that mind how power we could make that and what do they say think the mind gets used only 10% of what actually could be used well the thing is people get if you get into a routine yeah the neuroplasticity so the way your brain grows and adapts and connects his new white matter to different parts of the brain if you get into the same routine day in day out and you're in Groundhog Day you don't grow any new white matter it grows like wildfire when you're a toddler and you start you know when your kids start growing touching things moving around it grows like mad and then when you're in school if you're stimulated in school and you're hungry for for knowledge it works well but if you're getting bored you're not seeing relevance you get stale like I was when I left school that's why I found Russian difficult first and all of a sudden the penny dropped they had that euphoric sort of epiphany moment when you go I can do this feel clever yeah yeah yeah and I get it and I haven't looked back from that so several master's degrees later yeah I've got the learning bug you know I don't sit home at night watching East Enders and sobas and stuff I'm actually learning if I'm in a car I'm my audible on I'm listening to podcasts I'm listening to learning different bits and Bobs I'm always on the learn now you know regarding all sorts of stuff you've got to go for it so for me right now I set up this limited company thinking a one of them will take and I'll see how I'll just see how it goes suck it and see well 12 years on I'm still doing the same things so the forensic engineering um one of the leading forensic engineers in the UK I now specialize on Automotive stuff so I get sent all The Nasty car crashes that people can't really solve and piece back together again I get sent that so I'm getting uh bent metal jigsaws I get the data from the ecus from the computer control units and all that type of stuff and I piece it all together again so I work for insurance companies I work for legal fraternity for credit hire and for also police forces as well they utilize me doing that so that's one of the strands and then I do the talks the talks are now morphed so is still doing the language I still fly that flag I'm a CH I'm a fellow at the chart Institute of linguist in London I do routine talks down there I do talks at University of Cambridge do TKS at other universities around the UK getting people in confused about being the best they can be and you haven't got to learn it to a high level of language you can just get by colloquially but that helps with the white matter that helps you a Clarity of thought your speed of thinking gets rapid yeah really really rapid and I'm I'm a living version of it I'm highly dyslexic and I've got ADHD because I find it really hard sitting still here today you can probably see me I'm going a bit with my hands why that's why we swapped chairs we had wheels on this chair get onist moving around we spinning around all over the place but they're not they're not a disability and so many kids these days you get your you get your certificate in school that says you've got a special educational need well I didn't even get pointed out in school that I had of none of us know I don't even know now with I'm disle ad you probably are because you're very gifted very entrepreneurial and you're straight to the point we're having coms back and forth we're rapid aren't we we're just dealing with it we're getting to the Salient points and we're getting it there what bang bangang don't go around and what I found I've done a work I recently worked with a charity for about a year I had my M my M had a kidney transplant and I had a pretty much a year out of just treading water and sort of uh so the frenic stuff still ticking over but I downsized a lot of my stuff and I thought right let's see how she is let's stay home and local and I was working uh for an efl Club League one Club Lincoln City Football Club and I was working with this the charity wing of them and I've gone into like a 9 to-5 role you know and they do great stuff but I just couldn't fit in I just it's just and what inent toy with dyslexics and people with ADHD we're so quick with ideas and going for it is that what it is is it and you're just on it and how do I find and if you fail if you fail you fail fast how do I find out you can get yourself screened to certain tests and stuff find ADHD dyslexia how can you go somewhere ad I've got a mate who's Professor who's does all the Neuroscience stuff and he's got the same as me and he's highly qualified he deals with kids who have special educational needs Andrew White House is his name he is an absolute hoot he's a put me in context you love him on here okay but um it's really funny because he's dyslexic and ADHD so we're having a conversation we can talk over one another and in military call it duplex having two coms going on at the same time so like we talking one subject he's and we talking another subject so it's really highp speeed crazy and anybody from the outside looking in is like what the hell is going on here my M tells me this all the time she's like say I can't make that qualified judgment but I'd say from looking at you uh what what you tend find as well right so all the blades I know all the SAS guys I know they are yeah okay without a doubt they're all guys that are extremely intelligent yeah really get it they're Mega alert always on the go uh get relevance in something really really quickly so they they' all got it so what I'm saying is a trend here that the Achievers and the ones that are going there they have those traits they have a dyslexia they've massively missed in school too boring yeah they need to be boom boom boom need to be tested I need you need it you need everything you're talking about just makes me go yeah but Define normal well I don't is normal you know what I mean what I found I started excelling when I started being me so in the military you do and I found it and I found for the first time when I joined the military that you get in I got overall best recruit when I first joined you know out of 240 people on a flipping intake and I got overall doofer that's the first thing i' ever won in my life I thought how the hell did they have that so I was just being me yeah and then you get and I was very very fortunate in my entire career that I had people who are very understanding for various things that I went through and all the rest of the stuff but they they realized that was working whatever role I did I've did to the best of my ability and I was always coming up with new ideas I was always being entrepreneurial when you're inside a business doing or inside the military and I was seeing up things and things that were saving money things saving people saving lives ultimately and then when I came out and I was working for me of course things were just it was just I was following loads of different ideas things are working getting unhunted for God's sake I was working um Billy binghams on tour at the moment when his first tour I was helping Billy I was his bil coming on isn't he looking forward to that one oh mate you love a hoop yeah but sound as a pound guy yui this has been an absolute pleasure to have you on today to listen to your eventful life thank you very much I've loved it it's gone really quick it seems like about five minutes it does mate it's been an absolute pleasure to hear all of that I know there's certain stuff you can't mention um and I massive respect that but I really enjoyed this thanks mate you're a gentleman cheers B good man [Music] cheers

Channel: Dodge Woodall

Views: 57,148

Keywords: DodgeWoodall, DodgePodcast, JamesEnglish, ShaunAtwood, EventfulLives, EventfulLivesPodcast, DodgeWoodallPodcast, Podcast, Entrepreneur, Documentary, Crime, CrimeDrama, CriminalUnderworld, TrueCrime, Boxing, LifeIsGoodPodcast, DetectivePodcast, Criminals, TysonFury, EddieHearn, MentalHealth, Football, PhilCampion, DaveCourtney, TNTSports, SkySports, BoxingSocial, GaryNeville, RealLifestories, PremierLeague, CrimePodcast, TrueGeordie, KrayTwins, LondonGangsters, BritishGangsters, MichaelBisping, SAS, SpecialForces, Commandos

Id: L8GnpVJPgQY

Length: 81min 45sec (4905 seconds)

Published: Wed Feb 21 2024