Bishop Tudor Bismark In Conversation With Trevor

greetings Zimbabwe Africa and the world welcome to in conversation with Trevor brought to you by Titan law I go beyond the headlines and beyond the sensational today I'm in conversation with the senior pastor of the new life covenant church bishop to the bismarck [Music] bishop to the bismarck welcome to in conversation with Trevor Thank You Trevor thank you very much for having me I'm so honored and so delighted to be here with you in this August interview thank you so much pleasure congratulations it's a big day for you and your wonderful wife Chi Chi you are celebrating 38 years of marriage how have you done that well we met in 1978 I wanted to get married in 1980 we were a bit too young and then my sister passed away on in September 81 so removed the wedding from October 81 to the 20th of February 82 and it just seems like yesterday I'm the old guy but she still the teenager there was 88 years ago that's a great achievement bishop given the attack that marriages of men and women of God I experiencing what's been the formula for you guys well sticking it out is basically the first year were married was loving roses and so on and then we had our first major disagreement and the D word was thrown in you know I want to divorce and then we evolved from that day December 1982 we'll never use that word again never ever and whatever we go through we'll work it out and then we also began to find responsible counselors and people that could guide us and it rises with it ups and downs like everybody else but we've committed to a lifetime relationship being together mm-hm what advice do you give to couples going through stormy territories as far as marriage is concerned well life is really unpredictable no matter where you are in the world it's just terribly unpredictable and so firstly in premarital counseling when we get to do it I don't do that much anymore we go through the vows and we deal with the for better for worse you know for richer for poorer we deal with those actual dynamics what that means and to take that commitment very seriously if you're dealing with moral issues and moral failure it's not impossible to work through it becomes challenging but we've encouraged people to work through those we've not been in that area of challenge but we've helped couples survive and work through those kinds of things we also for me I've always said I always want my children to respect their mom and to honor their mom and I wouldn't want to put their mother through a difficult time and that's been a basically a compass and a guideline for me hmm let's go to the beautiful people that brought you to this world your mom and dad your dad was a musician and interestingly your mother would was a Muslim prior to getting married to your tio tio father shared us your Jenny on the outside my grandad Grandpa Bismarck was actually their name was Bismarck petites they immigrated when he was a little boy into Malawi in the Milan G area we're told we let some documentation say that they owned tea estates his parents died when he was a little boy and they lost those tea estates based on the executives of the world they then came to Rhodesia he married my grandmother my dad's real mom who was from Kimberley South Africa settle in Belle Isle and my dad's mom passed away giving birth to Uncle Peter my dad was 2 3 years old grandpa then remarried and had a number of children from his second wife granny Bismarck who passed away a few years ago and my dad settled in the Burleigh area became an apprentice working with the boss three finally got a job on the railways but his pastime was playing music and the saxophone that whole bunch were two families one of 17 kids on my mother's side my grandfather was born in Surat in India and way back then the were looking for Indians to come and work in the cane fields and didn't do well moved to Botswana where he met my grandmother who's SWANA my mother was born in Francis town with most of our sisters one of 13 children one mother one father moved to Belial because there were so many opportunities back then the old man got a farm was ranching was doing chiba-chiba that's reverse and buses trucks sour milk all of that and my mom and dad met he went to a dance he was playing in the band eyes from each other married in 56 made up of them 1956 I was born 1957 mm-hmm how was it like growing up they don't talk to me about a young to the Bismark you know did they ever spank what's the most stupid thing that you ever did well I was very omotte i 'zed as a boy I went to school started in turn and school hmm I had just turned 5 v of GNU is a tough time I should have spent another year at home but my dad got a job working on the railways and they were laying track from what is now route anga to triangle there were no shops out there there were no roads and so my dad had to put me with relatives to go to school I didn't understand it my sister Bernie who comes after my support of another relative and then the third year and my brother Donovan who's 1959 had to go to school they couldn't put the even in another relative so they then sent us to embark a mission hmm which was so traumatic and why was it traumatic well the thing is that we'd never been in an environment you go to a boarding school you have to have somebody that can protect you look after you fight for you I had no idea that that happened mmm in my first fight I was pulling Michael Holmes here I thought that's how you fight because that's how I folded my sisters and he passed me in the eye and but then you learn very quickly so you get a blow in your eye traumatized it did I mean you learn quickly in boarding school and then you learn how to defend yourself but again embark we grew me up really quickly in what way well it made me appreciate number one values you know appreciate home life family because I made a lot of kids there that were on welfare they were taken away from broken family some orphans I got to appreciate that I've also got a tremendous tremendous crowning in terms of education because the Catholic school mostly Irish and British nuns who were so auntie Rhodesian front just like the in Smith you know just liked apartheid and put in us you know actual values etc and the value of education so when I left him back when went to found his high school we were literally two classes ahead in education the the when where and how did Jesus Christ find you I had a basic experience that HSL being from subliminal Muslim family because my mother wasn't Farah practicing but in embark where the kids were getting for her First Holy Communion and I was my sister and I and my brother were the only ones that didn't take Holy Communion because we didn't go for the training and so I then asked my parents if I could they said no but I could serve in the altar but there was this appetite for being a Christian my mum then who began to seek and based on how our experiences school befriended the Archbishop of the Anglican Church in Botswana we said your children need to be confirmed and so we then started getting training in the Anglican Church and I was confirmed at the age of twelve but then when I was 16 my parents were having such a trauma in their marriage ten children my dad was in the band again drinking again going crazy again and my mum was done that particular day we was leaving with all Tim some missionaries were doing door knocking Robin Faris and Louie Lowell knocked on the door Robin was from Austin Texas just came off LSD and heroin drugs they sent him far away the first family they invited to see I chose my mom and dad took us to church we felt the anointing my mom bought her guts on the measure like what's wrong with you know why are you telling you business here but in a very short space of time I started attending church that was in 1972 and then in 1974 I started preaching and became the leader of Scripture Union started preaching there and then in 1978 got my first license to legitimately preach for the organization I was with what was the music in your father did it was it passed on to you the day it was there was no music in the church so the missionary was she was basically the missions wife Susan Ferris her name was she was pulling a piano accordion we already had a piano in the house because my dad had bought one for us and so my sister was playing piano I started playing guitar I was playing for the band in founders I played sax flute clarinet and so on I took all level music my sisters took Oliver music a level music so music was already in our family and now that the church needed musicians we came in as a family band wow so you played as a family band the church yes hmm and speak to me about the most powerful semmen that you've ever preached well that's a tough call you know I think they are basically Travis seasons in which things happen the first message I ever preached in South Africa defined some of my journey my Missy was entitled there is a ninety seven eight God the supreme man Berta mm-hmm and that's when we began to you know play around with the empowerment and black crocheted message pan-africanism and then in 1990 in Dallas I mean in England priest another very significant message and that was on Rebekah and that even though you're an outsider you have a right you know two inheritance that was 1990 and then for me the breakthrough came in 2001 preaching for Bishop TD jakes at the pastor's leaders conference the message was entitled the blessing of 1000 times more all of those messages in those decades defined my life my ministry and my future so probably the blessing of a thousand times more is probably the most powerful and the most outstanding what was the response to that message well again we couldn't anticipate it wasn't my preferred message that night it was something different it was almost an accident I read Deuteronomy 1 verse 11 where Moses says God has blessed you and the blessing of 1000 times more beyond you and then I heard like a sonic boom I thought there was a problem with the microphone and the Holy Spirit said no it's not the sound it's me and then shockingly I saw hundreds and hundreds of people there must have been over 10,000 people in that auditorium mostly pastors running to the front and throwing money checks I was wearing an African card Kinte Prince garment the reason for that I've been preaching a few weeks in the States I had no clothes my clothes in the laundry they hadn't come back and I thought ok let me just put this on and it was a mistake and people thought this was brilliant that I was Pan Africanist and it was all a mistake and that day when people were throwing money I thought Bishop Jake's was offended because nobody had seen this before I was panicking but it was just a moment it was just an absolute moment and I became known as the guy that preached the blessing of a thousand times more in that message as the week's went by videos went out and the thing about it was um month before the twin towers were bombed 9/11 and so Bishop was taking the chance on that meeting pastors came believing in Bishop Jake's before I spoke there was alive a feed from President Bush to thank the pastors for defying the terrorists and traveling and so on and after President Bush was Bishop Jake's introducing me and President Bush said I'll be watching the meeting so so it was a stunning moment and a lot of pastors knew me from that moment so today people refer back to that particular incident in moment awesome to talk to us about the ups and downs of building this amazing church that you have built now the presence that you have in Zimbabwe particularly on the continent but let's start with Zimbabwe how's the challenge been the gen how is the jelly bean 1980 teaching I went to Houston we weren't married who about to my missionaries son Reagan latter was getting married and we shared a bedroom because I lived with him here for four years he asked me to be his best man and so we went to Houston and I had a strange visitation there we were offered to live in America get married live there go to college and I was this is definitely God but I had a visitation supernatural visitation call baptism bobbly I was like you go back to Zimbabwe you know the country just become independent people weren't really sure on what Robert Mugabe was going to do he had won a huge majority which was stunning many people don't have this conversation that 20 percent of the parliament had to be whites 1/4 that was part of the Lancaster treatment so his hands were tied but again a bit of a loose gun nobody knew what he would do they thought he might go some more on the SHA way and I was like I'm not going back with him Barbara we have a great opportunity but TG said we need to go back and when I agreed to I had this dream which was so poignant that I would build a church that had at least 10,000 people and a building to go with it and at that time there were very few churches anyway that had more than a couple of thousand people and so some people you know accuse me of egotism and narcissism and whatever the case might be but we held onto that and we anchored with that and remained even after challenges that came in the 90s and then 2000s we built our entire idea and thought around that visitation from God that we ought to be here and remain here mmm it mean many opportunities to live with refuse to leave we have committed to being in Zimbabwe and remaining here well what's the day like in the life of bishop bishop to the bismarck what's your day like again you know before the mid 90s I was having just a general day office-boy going early in the morning but I said I would not turn 40 without an earn degree and so 1997 coming towards 40 I went back to school and earned my degree and because there was dial-up you know internet was just coming and perfecting and so on I had to use the dial-up thing with the phone line and so I had to come early so I could get a decent signal and stuff like that so I started would start coming to the office about 2:00 in the morning and then he just became a lifestyle and a habit so now I get up about 10:00 to 4:00 I leave the house what a bus offers for and every day religiously including today on our anniversary I was at the office at quarter to 5:00 well and go through emails go through schedules things I have to do appointments certain days it's study time and then I start meeting people from probably eight to about one two and then prepare for whatever I'm doing in the evenings fairly regimented in that time is a specific reading it's not random it's civic reading so I'm right now doing leadership so January into March is leadership April into June is finance and anything from August II I started reading probably into relationship building team building etc Church stuff how to build churches and then from October I have maybe two or three novels that I read mmm you know I know you you visit your you visit families in the in the evening share that experience with with us well you know Trevor people say I'm a great pastor I'm not I'm an awful pastor I'm never home I get people to do the pastoring side and so I committed last year I just wanted to be home and so while I'm home most of the people are meeting in the day are basically relational ok in the evenings I'm not visiting families going to see where they live eat what they eat I don't want them to do anything special and I've seen some guys that are literally building from the ground up living in little back room and Burling the house you know hugging their kids and encouraging where they are our family last week's didn't want to come me to come to the house because they had just laid tiles the roof wasn't up we had been raining I said no I'm coming they won't take me somewhere I said no I'm coming and the children are bees yeah Bishop we wouldn't have seen that a restaurant and I'm arguing their kids and eating what they eating and feeling for them praying for their breakthrough and trying to feel what Cimber winds are feeling right now they are paying their struggle they you know and and what are they feeling Bishop what are they paying the kayo of your congregations and and your parishioners what are they going through what are they seeing what are you experience and when you visit when we started we committed to buying a house and owning property and putting money away which is part of our culture we still do that but we have young couples now married two three years no jobs basically dealers entrepreneurs trading here buying selling cross-border taking those few profits and burning their house and to see them doing that you know trying to find a school for their kids driving on awful roads has been very painful and very difficult what is what has that done to you it's a it's been very painful because now I have to keep on preaching messages of hope I've tracked 2010 to 2020 my cross over service messages which have been very concerning because I've been saying next J's you yeah he's your breakthrough year the doors are opening and so 2020 was very difficult 2019 preaching that Messi was very difficult because I don't want to be known for empty promises we have to keep on being optimistic and people actually take that message and anchor their life and their future around that message and I'm so scared that I'm giving people promises in hopes that may not be realized or will take longer to realize and we're saying no Bishop city is gonna be alright we won't call this off we won't go to museum let's Romania let's pearl the house let's find the school and so now I've become really human very sensitive I I'm touched by the feelings of people's infirmities and my prayers more God please help this country and more help Africa at the console of everything apostles which is a group of people I lead all of us have had this real conversation as Africans you know let's continue to be hopeful but let's now anchor our gospel on salvation and the culture of prosperity not salvation equals prosperity they two separate things because a lot of times people have come to church and equating salvation relationship with Jesus Christ and prosperity they two separate things I call it micro way of Christianity I get born again today and because the bishop has said this is my heir I expect by the end of the year to have prospered I mean I haven't prospered Bishop what do you say to me you told me this is my heir and so we're now moving around what actually pleases God and what pleases God is without faith it is impossible to please God so when a person has got to increase their faith that's Luke 17 verse 5 increase my faith the minute you ask you've got to increase your faith you've asked for an impossible task impossible so when we preach a message you're afraid that your breakthrough is coming that faith is going to be tested because the just live by faith and your faith is going to be tested and so we're trying to balance the message we cannot if you look at the Martin Luther Renaissance time when he said the judge shall live by faith and I nailed that thesis on the cathedral draw and Europe came to an awakening then awakening came with a certain quality of life and prosperity so for me I'd like our message including prosperity to be quality of life water that actually works electricity that's actually delivered schools that have good teachers exercise books that are actually they're a pipeline that kids will go to high school and to a university that has quality professors where there's money available for entrepreneurs and so we're trying to develop and perfect that pipeline alongside and this is your faith and prosperity but how do you get the how do you do that to continue preaching a message of hope and encouragement in this destitution in this poverty that people are drowning how do you do that it's mandatory because where we are have been in ministry since 1974 which is 30-some years almost forty some years if we don't stand the person that just gets born again next week before yoga it's like if those guys can't stand how are we going to stand so it is a responsibility to keep on preaching that hope and walking that hope will look at traumatic testimonies in countries like Ghana Tanzania Ethiopia where Christians have gone through worse in terms of war and struggles and pain and they've made it so we anchor our faith with those and we've agreed collectively that we must preach the message of hope it is responsible to do that every Sunday because if we don't teach that and preach that people will not be able to stand Bishop I am you know as a baboon is going through what they're going through right now and hearing you saying this and some of them asking but where is God a lot of what we are in is in the realm of what I call human will is a message I preached some years ago the five worlds that affect every human being the will of God the demonic world and then there's the individuals will human will in this world is more powerful than the will of God do not for example he says do not eat of that fruit that's my will human will affected by demonic will Adam and Eve ate of that fruit and that will has affected all of us my dad's will affected me to go to the bush and put me in a school and so other people's will affects our will but until ultimately I have to make a choice and a decision and so my will then must be based on cause moral standing cause Commandments cause requisites for us then there's corporate world Genesis 11 verse 6 collectively we choose and so God is there as a people we pray we ask God to intervene we shouldn't pray that God would kill certain people even though we might wish they would just get away analyze improve but again we are in the realm of human will it said that we get the government we deserve I don't think we deserve this one we have people have made their choice it's the people's choice that the next election round they'll make another choice hopefully we'll get better results in terms of giving more back to the people quality of life hope and so on but again God is there he will answer pray sometimes like the widow that said avenge me of mine adversary Luke 18 and the guy that's knocking for bread at midnight three times we have to have in portunity keep on praying keep on believing and keep on believing that God is then how you say we don't deserve this government you just son picked that for me well around elections and that's around Africa we're seeing this with the USA I got up early this morning earlier than normal to watch the debates the Democratic candidate debates and they throwing all kinds of trinkets and health care free health care and so in countries is you know I'll give you a Fanta I'll give you a millimeter I'll buzz your clinic I'll get you a score if you vote for me and so again we're conned into voting for a certain individual and government leaders around the world don't carry out their promises you know and so on and so we believe that it's gonna get better and we believe that we're gonna get the clinic you know we just had a fancier or a coke or whatever the case might be and we believe and then we vote for a certain individual and we then deserve the people we vote for because we but this happens all over what should we do this happens rather it's it's a cyclical we're gonna have another election in 2023 what do we do Bishop there has to be for me three basic things and I'm not sure it's even permitted in this country I'll have to do my research on it but there has to be broad education who you're voting for number two the church has to begin to support candidates you know and remind those of their responsibilities and number three we have what we starting tap which is training political training politicians we're starting from when they small all the way up we're calling it this is this is politics and and with that particular teaching with training leaders what their responsibilities are to the nation to the constituency and to the church and so there has to be training and again it's a long-term goal immediately I'm not sure we're going to get the kinds of results generally when you have strong one-party states in a semi multi-party system the dominant party is going to rule and dictate Zimbabwe is tricky because of the military and stuff like that but again the citizens must know what their rights are and must be able to D to make demands on those rights yes there's some who say the church should stay out of politics what's your view it's not really possible I think the church needs to speak especially when there's injustice human rights violations violence and stuff like that the church enemy I'm speaking about within the structures some Barbican sort of bishop churches the quality of Bishops evangelical fellowship I'm not considered the church I am a leader in the church I can make a public statement that shouldn't be in contravention of what the Zimbabwe Council of Churches is saying or the evangelical philosophers in Bob way because then we can maybe inhibits processes that we don't know of that are happening under cover really for me I do speak not making a public statement usually it's more speaking to political leaders privately I say would say Nicodemus lien coming at night you know and challenging some things if they is blatant violence and good police brutality which we experience on our routes I have to say something yes and I cannot be silent I have to say something and it's not to agitate or create a platform for a political agenda in fact three weeks ago the police were again beating people right outside church on a Sunday morning and I came down and challenged the guys for doing that they actually wanted to walk through our property says you can't do that so right now a couple of passes on staff have gone to meet the officer commanding library and spoke to them about those kinds of things we've seen less since then but there's still areas of where we see blatant police brutality with experience that outside our church 55 common Karuma son wednesdays we've had people running off the street coming in to church and police have actually come into the learning to arrest and beat people and so we've challenged that if there are miscreants and individual that are misbehaving I do understand that but we need a bit of a heads-up and if we are going to the international community and we asking for sanctions to be lifted and we're wanting to be received in the neck in the international community those pictures don't make it easy it makes it even worse you know of people being beaten answer that's not normal in a normal society if you had an opportunity to be in a room with present MSM men Gaga and Nelson charissa what message would you say to them impromptu it would be Zimbabwe is greater than any political party it's not that I love Rome less Oh Caesar less is that I love Rome more you have your politics Zimbabwe is greater than your political party our future is greater than the existence of your political party so let's deal with the common ground number one peace at all costs you we have to have peace we have to create an environment in my view government's responsibility is to create an environment for good economics for entrepreneurs for money to flow in and out government's responsibility is to make sure that people have quality of life we can't expend quality of life against a political party we have to deal with corruption on the highest level we have to have open transparency we have to have a Singapore transparency people have to disclose before they come into power they assets and then given account of why and how they've earned money to gain certain assets corruption is an area that has to be dealt with openly and transparently and that's from pastors to political leaders and those are things that they have to stand together in as as vested interests in the nation the love of Zimbabwe it's greater than personal gain you preached at one time you used to preach at one time wearing the suburban flag around your wrist what is that signifying leading up to 97 when the land acquisition deal began and land grab began and there was lots of violence Zimbabwe was like going up in smoke we were praying hard for Zimbabwe sandy Jacobs had prophesied Zimbabwe was the breadbasket and I was of Africa and so on and so as a tool for intercession began to wear the flag and try to get people everywhere I preached on the major platforms you know they would ask what do you that I'd say we prank was in Barbary it was a tool for intercession and I would that flack for probably 12 years just praying and praying and praying leading up to 2013 elections after those elections I kind of like took the flag off again why I felt that that particular job was done in terms of intercession and I also felt like I became known for wearing a flag and not for a message of empowerment not for Kingdom unity I didn't want to be labeled as an individual wearing a flag so people ask me why don't I wear a flag anymore what's gone wrong what's different I feel the kingdom agenda is greater unity is greater Africa as a continent is greater than a single flag so that's one of the reasons why the main reason why I stopped wearing the flag the you you emphasize the issue of unit is greater but right now as a nation we're so polarized Bishop what would be a message to Zimbabweans around that it's not simple there's going to be polarization there's going to be preference most political parties in this case from nineteen seventy eight seventy eight into nineteen eighty grassroots politics guys were getting grassroots going down there and so I said many years ago that the concept of Mugabe was greater than Mugabe because in the rural areas you'd mentioned his name he was literally a God really and it would be unthinkable to vote for somebody else because of who he was and what he did and they did the grassroot the late great did some phenomenal things and those won't be forgotten shouldn't be and so in South Africa you have a and C is greater than the other parties because of what Mandela and Oliver Tambo before him did it cetera what those individuals did those that went through Fort Hare University etc it's very difficult not to be polarized and so now when you have a new political party in terms of political journey the MDC for example the face was longer live versus President Mugabe and what MDC stood for and what's on abhi have stands for there's definitely polarization they have their colors they wear their red berets their red colors cyan opf as there's and unfortunately we still have polarization what we have to grow is we have to grow into maturity where we respect a person's views we respect a person's opinion she's not so different with 30 HS mary i eat hard eggs she loves soft eggs i get up struggle to get up in the morning i'm still grumpy she's an a in person i can stay up all night she's an Arsenal supporter you are Liverpool supporter living with the enemy but again with our differences Lord made a tree hmm and in that single tree a Robin a crow a canary can dance their song where their colors and celebrate Zimbabwe is a big tree all the birds and expressions can have the expression in that tree and we must respect each other's views each other's opinions if they violate cardinal laws from sovereign to human rights definitely but other than that we must respect each other we must only each other you know we can't have a police state where CIO guys come in and monitor what somebody's saying service and if you speak against bond notes you marked a certain way that's ridiculous we have to have these freedoms and be free without insulting somebody I need to be free to express my opinion you are passionate about developing leadership what what do you say to assemble who says we are exactly where we are right now because of a deficit in leadership within the church within politics within the boardrooms what would be of you I think futuristic leadership needs to be built around vision without vision people perish and so you can have somebody have a vision Samuel the book of Samuel says in that day the Word of God was scarce and there was no open vision Eli was the leader he had no vision his sons hophni and Phinehas were leaders they had no vision and so what trusted a national agenda to a nine-year-old boy Samuel God called his name three times and God gave him the national agenda firstly spiritually economically politically and and that national agenda grew with Samuel and God promised him your words will not fall to the ground and so for us in Africa we need to clarify what our vision is where to broad-brush you know what the AU is talking about in Addis is very broad brush we're very short on details so we have the late great Moyes the Julius Nyerere is the common columnist Robert Mugabe is in commerce so on those were all broad-brush leaders what we need now are leaders that can work out the details so that clear vision must not have leaders that can function specifically in particular areas to deliver leadership training is not leading with people following leadership is actually identifying and bringing direction and so there is leadership for example if I'm driving on a road he's like the other night visiting a family I asked them what road I was on they said to me I you on the wrong road so yes I was on the wrong road they identified I was wrong but they couldn't tell me which way to go and so what we need is don't tell me I'm on the wrong road give me directions to find the right road and so we need those kinds of leaders to emerge in unfortunately on our continent the minute somebody emerges even in judges when somebody emerges with that kind of potential leadership we try to stifle them and bring them down he sort of encouraged them to grow to grow and express themselves you you have been tested as a as a leader and as a person you're very touching story for youngest your youngest son Ben stand how is it doing by the way well he was with me this morning you know coming to celebrate with us our anniversary he described to us what was Ben Stein's going through yes we're four sons Bernstein was born in 93 I hope about that right we discovered in April of 1993 that Bernstein a severe heart condition we were preaching from my dad at his conference over Easter and Bernstein's nose that thick green mucus and his chest was very bad and some chichi and my dad rushed into the emergencies in balaiah and the doctor there said your son too chichi your son has a severe heart condition she said no he's just got a bad cold he said no I can hear it this mama but also his fingers are clubbed and his toenails are clubbed within were referred to dr. Bannerman and then discovered Bernie was born with the hole in his heart there could not be mended but the tragedy was that he was born without a pulmonary artery an office iota and now collateral vessels which are veins coming off that plug every on his lungs and we were told your son one of to the age of 12 he's now 26 26 when he was 18 along with his challenge he had a mental breakdown and his dream patterns his memory was totally erased what is that done to you in terms of your faith what is that done to you we have to categorize your over effort that God is a healer because God does heal and he continues to here we see miracles in our church in many places where God has healed others we've seen miracles dance around our son the only issue I have travel with that is that our son if this is a test for me if I'm paying for the International Minister I have in my view and I fight with all men all the time including this morning it shouldn't be at my expense I mean it should be at my expense not at Natalie's expense I've discovered many phenomenal leaders who have similar challenges and so we're now dealing with the we don't want to become toxic because I can't speak out of a heart that's world with its toxic I'd only have toxicity and have vengeful attitudes I want to try to stay pure and be touched with other people's feelings in fact when we took Bernstein last year to meet dr. Bannerman dr. Bannerman said to me said you know what Bishop he said I thought your son had the worst heart condition I've ever seen he said these kids I'm seeing now I'm gonna need you because their child has actually a hollow heart this child may not live what is this Jenny taught you bishop about you well firstly that no human being is God we're very quick as human beings to make people God's it has humbled you well it's broken me it's given me a contrite heart it's made me more human more approachable it's made me become more seen to other people's needs that the person next door probably has a greater struggle than I do it's made me fearful because we have grandchildren coming up I don't want my sons and daughter-in-laws to have challenges we've had my sister Shirley is still she's now in her fifties still having a challenge my mom was 85 next two weeks still watches over Shirley who's 55 and that was my greatest fear that we'd have a situation like that I just pray that individuals that have challenges like that will continue to have confidence in God that called knows what he's doing that is perfecting something in the future whatever it might be has it brought the family together or it has brought us together we still celebrate and work with our differences but we we have now come towards common ground we've done that for years around Bernie to talk and to enjoy each other more and appreciative of each other more a friend of ours lost their son the early part of January he was killed in an accident just came out of university from Cyprus going to Cape Town came on for a few days was killed in an accident and I've known that family they were part of my dad's church from 1974 and I wept with them I wept for them but I cried because I just felt they gave their son we still have ours very difficult moment yeah very very difficult moment we pray for Benson's recovery and comfort but God continues to bless you God has given you an amazing Network you've built amazing relationships all over the world on the continent in America speak to me about that I mean you you TD jakes one of my favorite pastors is is a close friend of yours talk to me about that Network and what it's done for you again a lot of what we've done we've just been after in the right place at the right time when our church began to grow we were the way that started was we began to support pastas give them allowances every month the organization I was a part of was against us doing that they said we are creating a welfare system where people are going to be trusting in the welfare and not living by faith well I couldn't correlate that in my head and so as we started supporting pastors with instead of planting churches and our ministry began to grow throughout Zimbabwe at that time my international ministry in terms of a public platform began I got onto TV and almost by accident the guys that were leading TB and praise and worship came out of the same church that the missionaries that converted us to Christ came from we discovered that at a conference I was preaching they were leading praise and worship and over lunch we discovered that they then said to me would you like to come on TBN didn't know what that was they explained it to me I then said okay I'll come on TV and my driver had a company that was a telephone company he gave me a 1-800 number printed me a card said you're gonna need a name for this minister where we knew Life Ministries I said that's too common I've written a song entitled Ebola in 1988 my sister Bernie said why don't you take job Ola Mike then developed the font he said you need something in bright red it's a tracking you know and there's a lot of humor around that and so that's how that began mmm and when I went on TV and I was told you know you got a good message you African the only African that was known that time was Benson et Ossa and so I was told that if certain people come including Bishop Jake's pinning in or out costly if they are available we bump you off off to be above TB and the Knights you know because they were doing revival services and they'll come on and I was fine with it and so one of those nights it was a Thursday night Bishop Jake's was available and I was gonna be preaching on the Friday I did Wednesday and I was gonna do Friday and so that's how I met Bishop Jake's and we talked a little bit of course he was rising my name was seen around his especially on a magazine called charisma magazine and he did his homework and that's how he invited me but then because we were planting churches and starting churches around the world we had to have a name which was jubilant new life conditions national we then started to organize these churches into national structures which are now in over 30 nations Wow I don't lady abullah we have an international presiding bishop that leads to a bola hmm I'm just like the president of the of the organization a figurehead hopefully we'll enjoy some benefits from that you know but again we just opened Venezuela well Chile we in Dominican Republic so we have a Spanish expression I'm going there in the later part of this year because they want to meet Papa mm-hmm which is quite interesting and striking mmm an amazing journey an amazing story you you you busy you don't sleep enough so how do you do do you exercise at all well I run I try it when I'm on the road I run every morning because I get up early so I run every morning I try to do a minimum of 10 KS when I'm in Zimbabwe I'm running weekends this is not possible to run during the day you No and so weekends and probably college I get that run in try to keep my weight down eat properly I've been the same weight for the last 20 years Wow which is 67 I've dropped a bit of weight because of the fasting program but I'm around about 67 I don't do sugar I don't do fizzy drinks I don't do desserts I don't eat after 10 o'clock at night well I don't because you can't keep the kind of schedule dragging all of that around you know picks up a bit of a butt blood pressure issue some time ago and so but monitoring all of that so I would really advise people to stay fit because your best years come in your late fifties into your early 60s and so you don't want to be sick and unhealthy when you've got your best years you know and so basically exercise is important I don't do gym I just and do you get time to apart from reading the Bible do you get time to read anything else I do you do do you mind sharing with us the books you're reading our the people that watch this show love books what books have made an impact I strongly and highly recommend Alistair Campbell's book winners mm-hmm it's probably the most powerful book on leadership I've already Alastair Campbell was working with Tony Blair for years and he's interviewed the top one percent of the greatest leaders of all time mm-hmm he of course in the 20th and 21st century including Queen of England Tiger Woods's in there you know why they succeed and he Charles in that book every person that succeeded mentions the Beatles out of Liverpool if a person puts 10,000 hours into something which is eight hours a day for a minimum of 10 years you are guaranteed success Bill Gates is in that deal and so what that did for me reading winners why they win it helped me develop a culture it's a culture of winning it's a discipline of things that has to be done so with my prayer that I put in in the late 80s 90s nobody was calling me nobody was asking me to preach I had nothing to do so I prayed eight hours a day and spent tons of hours in my Bible mmm from Genesis all the way and so in January I did the Old Testament through I've gone through the Bible really twice the seal on audio fast speed because if you put the time in the Returns come and so I would encourage guys when this is a really really great book Sam chant who writes on leadership he does stuff on holding your letter anything by Sam Chand is great but I mean max Willie say ain't no brainer you know it's a phenomenal read and a great book and for me one of the greatest books of all time which I read three times a year is by George callosum the richest man in Babylon well five seven cures for a lean perception and the Father I believe it is a phenomenal book taught me how to save money we put money away every month eighteen percent of all of our income to put away we put away you know businesses in our ministry and their lives I strongly recommend the richest man in Babylon by George crossing well Amen who reads so much a man who's wise like this how do you get a separate Liverpool well it's you never my national support this all right you know I'm offended that you a livable well he's one you're gonna win the league it looks like well on the 25th of April this year I'm going to Anfield it's the second last game at Anfield we definitely were win the league what your own Club has done is brought a culture which is playing for the badge Alex Ferguson did that with men you know you're not playing for a salary you playing for the badge the badge is greater than the salary and so I think club has done that now he's bought a phenomenal team what he has done is he's succeeded in building the spine goalkeeper midfield and striker everything else is performing and for anything you do you must have a reliable spine and so the vocals having a good patch it looks like if he continues in this way it will be several seasons they could be in that mode other teams and are going back to building rebuilding and so on and say it's a season as Liverpool supporters we want to enjoy and should enjoy fortunately I'm not being tormented by man United supporters is a non Asano Arsenal supporter it pains me to say we wish you the best as Liverpool thank you thank you bishop to the bismarck what a pleasure it's been talking to you and what an inspiration your journey has been we pray for instance comfort and and recovery and we hope Liverpool does lift the cup as Arsenal supporters so thank you for coming busy as you are let me tend to our audience back at home on the continent in the Diaspora we thank you for watching in conversation with Trevor which is a weekly show we invite you to press this little subscribe button so that you don't miss out on this amazing conversation that we're having with great people so until next time [Music] you [Music]

Channel: In Conversation with Trevor

Views: 53,581

Rating: 4.8730159 out of 5

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Id: QA8WMcoKtpI

Length: 60min 4sec (3604 seconds)

Published: Tue Feb 25 2020