Benny Waters Interview by Dr. Michael Woods - 9/1/1995 - Los Angeles, CA

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Hamilton College Jazz Archive are filming interviews with America's greatest jazz musicians. We have here the elderstatesman of jazz, Benny Waters. Pleased to have you, Benny. BW: Well thank you. I'm happy to be here. MW: How did you get started in music? BW: In music? Well I'm a protege, I was, that's how you say it in French maybe not the right word in English because I've been in France so long. Anyway, I was born playing, like a gift from God, see, at three years old. So I was playing the piano then, so then after I stopped playing the piano, I went to the trumpet. But my lips got so sore that I gave it up right quick. Then I went to clarinet - E flat clarinet - and I did band music and concert music. Then from the E flat clarinet to the B flat clarinet. And then on to the saxophone, on like that. MW: Everyone in your family was musical, weren't they? BW: Well no, all the brothers were. My brother, my oldest brother was quite a virtuoso. He played all of the wind instruments, rather all of the brass instruments like the tuba and the trombone and the trumpet. He majored on the trumpet, but he could play all the brass instruments and could play clarinet also. And he played a little flute and oboe. He was quite a virtuoso. And the other brother played trombone, and the other one played the, I guess they called it a mellophone or something, I forget what the name of that thing is in the military band, see. But the sisters didn't, they didn't play anything, my sisters. MW: Yeah. You learned to hear music first, and play it by ear, and then you learned to read. Is that right? BW: Yeah. I started by ear, see at three years old I just -if I have time I can give you a little short story just how I started playing. MW: Okay. BW: My mother was very religious, and she used to like to sing hymns. She didn't have no voice, but she liked to still sing all day. She had an organ, an old organ, a country organ, I forget the, it has a particular name but I forget it now. Anyway it was one of those little country organs, and she would always have the key locked up because she was afraid I may break it, you know a young kid see. So she would hide the key. So I looked and looked and looked many months for that key. So finally I found it. I looked underneath the wall and I saw something shining under the molding, in the country house that my father bought, built, you know? And I saw something shining in a little crack of the molding. So I went well here's the key. So I took the key and started playing. I unlocked the thing. And she came home from her work and heard me playing, and she broke down in tears, and kissed me and hugged me, and from then on the organ was never, never locked. MW: Oh, that's great. BW: Yeah. I was quite unhappy about it too, because there's a little joke there. Because my mother used to like to sing, sing these hymns from the church, and I had to play them. And sometimes I didn't happen to feel like playing, I didn't feel like playing all this stuff, you know? But I learned to play the organ, so she had me playing a little bit too often. MW: Well that's another type of education in itself. BW: Yeah. MW: Tell us how you were trained formally, where you studied formally. BW: Not formally, formally, I was three years old, see? I studied later, when I was 18. That's when I went to the New England Conservatory and took up theory, harmony and solfeggio. That's what I studied, see. MW: Uh huh. Tell us about solfeggio. BW: Well solfeggio is the sound, mostly. You make chords. The way we did, we, my teacher would make a C, then I would have to hum the third, the E and the fifth and so forth. That's the principle see. Then you learn, solfeggio also contains notes - Do Re Me Fa So - I can sing those notes. So that is an advantage in playing jazz. That really is. Solfeggio I think is - well harmony naturally, we know we have to have harmony over the principle and theory - but after that solfeggio actually gave you the sound of what's going on, so that you can hear a chord across the street and if you studied a little bit, you can name that chord. You can tell just what it is, you know? So the solfeggio is quite important for jazz. You know some people have absolute pitch. I don't have it. I have relative pitch. Some people have, some people are born just, you don't have to be a musician to have absolute pitch, you know a lot of people are not musicians who still have relative pitch. But if you're a musician and you have relative pitch, that helps more also in distinguishing chords and so forth. And in your playing, improvising I'm thinking of now. That's where jazz is, improvising see. MW: Yes. Tell us some of the early band leaders that you worked with. BW: Band what? MW: Some of the early band leaders that you worked with. BW: Oh. Like the first, well the very first band when I was 14 I was working with a group named Charlie Miller. And we wasn't playing Dixieland or New Orleans as you may call it, we were swinging. We had a similar Dixieland combination. We had trombone, trumpet, and I was playing saxophone. But actually it was a Dixieland combination. But we didn't play Dixieland music. We played just swing songs and popular songs at that period, you know? Like at that period we had songs like maybe "Margie" was back there, you know see? So we had a good band then. And I was only 14 then. I was working. I was really a kid in the band see? MW: Tell us how you, some of the people that you played with after that. Kind of give us a little chronology. BW: What do you mean, later? MW: Uh huh. BW: Well see I came up to New York, see I came up to New York in 1926 and stayed until way into the late 40s. And the band that I worked with see had very, very, very top musicians in it. We had Edgar Sampson, the composer of "Stomping at the Savoy," well he was a friend of mine, see. And we had the young Benny Carter. We had the great Jimmy Harrison. We had Sidney DeParis on trumpet. We had Jabbo Smith, the young Jabbo Smith, in his teens, and we had one of the greatest bass horn players that I've ever worked with, Billy Taylor. He finally later really, he joined Duke Ellington, but he was one of the greatest jazz bass, bass, and I hear a lot of that bass around here, you know, bass solos, you know, the bass horn I mean that big thing. But this guy Billy Taylor was the greatest I ever heard in my life. We had him on it see and we had arrangements galore. Benny Carter made arrangements on "Rhapsody in Blue" and we had a wilder arrangements, we had two arrangements on "Rhapsody in Blue" and things like that you know? And we worked at Small's Paradise and it was easily considered the second biggest cabaret in America at that period that was say next to the Cotton Club. Because in my interviews that I did in Paris on the Herald Tribute I said that it was better than the Cotton Club. But that was my own idea see. If I have time I'd give you a summation. We had twelve girls dancing at Small's Paradise, and so the Cotton Club had twelve girls. So I made the statement that the Cotton Club had some of the most beautiful girls in Harlem, but they couldn't dance. That was true. Because we had girls that could dance. They wasn't so pretty, but they could dance, you know? MW: How long did, how long were you with the band there? BW: Ten years. MW: When it comes to a band playing a specific job at a like you say a residency, how did that help you? Did it like just give you a forum where you could continually perfect your skills? BW: Not particularly in big bands you can't. But I would say, this is my own opinion, as far as a jazz man, a soloist is concerned, you don't get a chance to perfect much in a big band, see, because you have to read music first thing. Because the big band plays arrangements. It is not like a Dixieland band just playing whatever, you know. You have to know the notes down and when you do make your chorus you're limited. You may take 16 bars and then finish and things like that or 8 bars you know. So it don't develop that, not for that, the small combinations is where you develop to be a jazz artist. In small combos, you know? But not in big bands. To tell you the truth, big bands is hard. It's hard work. Particularly if you can play solos because you're reading and playing the solo too. While the other guys that can't play solos just read, and you're playing the solos and reading and doing everything, see? MW: When did those opportunities begin to come for you with the small combo work, where you got the solo space that you needed? BW: Well the small combo came in with my own band in New York, yeah, I formed my own little group. Then I could play any way I felt, you know. And experiment also. MW: What was your instrumentation with your small group? BW: Well my instrumentation, I had my wife on piano, and I had a trumpet player, and a guitar player that played not vibraharp, vibraphone I think they called it. It's something like a Hawaiian guitar, you know? He played them both, they're two different instruments. And the drums, we had no bass, and it was quite unique because it was a little different from the other combinations. And we played popular songs, you know? Show songs, because we worked in a cabaret where it's necessary to play pop songs for the public, the type of public that came to our place. So we had a good combination. I stayed there three years. MW: Now you made your first recording in 1924? BW: No, I made my first recording in Philadelphia way before that. But I, myself have never heard it. I made it for a guy named Perry, Perry Bradford I think or something like that. I can't, I forget his name a little bit. He was a kind of pioneer in recording in those days. He recorded the famous Mamie Smith, see that's what I'm talking about, in that period. MW: Black Swan Records? He was with Black Swan? BW: No, I don't know if it was Black - I don't know the name of the record right now, see. I don't know if it was Okeh, Black Swan or Emerson or what. In that category, yes. But that was my first record. But the next record I made it was with this band that I worked so long at Small's Paradise. That was on Victor Records. And at that session we had Benny Carter, we had Jimmy Harrison, we had Jabbo Smith, we had Jimmy DeParis and this bass player I'm telling you about. And at that session I made all the arrangements except three. Benny Carter made two, and a white arranger named Ken McComa made one, and all the rest I made. And that can be bought now, see it's on Victor Records and it's been at least five or six times it's been revived. MW: Reissued. BW: Reissued, that's the word. MW: Marvelous, marvelous. BW: And I have a number on there of mine that I feel kind of proud of it because with the other arrangements I had to arrange it exactly the way he asked me to. If it wasn't to my liking, I got paid, see, so I had to arrange it the way he said. But this number of mine called "Harlem Drag" is my own number and though he gave me the privilege of making it the way I want. So that's on this Victor recording. MW: Marvelous. BW: It's called the "Charlie Johnson's Paradise Ten." That's the name of the band, see? Charlie Johnson's Paradise Ten. MW: You are one of the musicians that decided to live in Europe for a while. BW: Forty years, yeah. MW: Tell us about some of your experiences there. BW: Well I had quite a lot. You know what I mean? MW: Well I mean compare it to the United States. BW: Well I had a very good deal in Europe. I, the first thing, I made money, and I guess that's what every musician wants to do you know? So I made more money in Europe than I did in America. Well everybody did but the times were different, see? I guess when I was working at Small's I guess the money was about, well everything was cheaper, I guess it was maybe about the same thing. But I started doing solo work. And solo work is where you make money, see? It's hard work because you play with everybody - good musicians, bad musicians, all types. But you can make more money, see? MW: Compare the audiences in the United States to Europe. How are the audiences? Do they respond differently? BW: Well I don't know. That's really a good question. That has been asked me so often. If you want to know where I think are the greatest audiences that I've ever played for, it was not in Europe and not in America either, it was in the what do you call it, Czechoslovakia and Poland. That's where the greatest audiences. They came, the first thing, they would be lined up outside to get into the hall, and they all would be dressed up in tuxedos, just like a classic concert, you know? In tuxedos. And when you played, you didn't hear a sound. And when you finished playing, just applause. Never no hollering or whistling or anything like that. Just applause, applause, applause, applause. They took it as an art, you know? You know I'm speaking of Czechoslovakia mostly now. But in France, why actually in France, I mean I was there, I owned a little house there in France, so I was living there, but working all over Europe. They didn't dress up much, maybe a few bands have a uniform but we didn't have much uniforms there. MW: You know you are known as a person who continually updates your skills and your sounds, always listening to new artists and picking up new ideas. And can you tell us about that? Just the process of hearing new things and bringing them into your repertoire of sounds. BW: Well this can be explained, I'll tell you why, because I don't never get tired of listening, you know? And I listen to everybody, everything. I listen to free jazz. I listen to bebop. I listen to fusion. And I find I get something from everything. Dixieland. I worked in a Dixieland band three years at Jimmy Ryan's. So, I worked in a blues band, see for a year and a half. So I didn't like the band so well, see but the guy liked me so I stayed there see until I got tired and I left. But if it seems that I play fresh, I think that's what you are trying to say see, it's because I listen, well the first thing is I studied. I know harmony. I know what I'm doing see? I know the chords. I may not play all that I know but I know the harmonies you know. See I played the piano you know see? And everything I play on saxophone I can play on the piano. I don't care how hard it may be, oh songs such as "I Remember April" and things like that. I remember when "Laura" first got popular in France, I didn't know it on my saxophone, but I could play it on the piano, see, so I transferred the chords from that, from the piano to the saxophone, see? Then I listen to the other guy. I think that's one of the great things, listen to everybody. You don't have to play like everybody, or copy it, but you can get so much from everybody. I was telling, I tell, when it comes to alto saxophone, I have three idols that I've admired, three people who I've admired, see and I was inspired, influenced I will say, huh? That was first Johnny Hart at 13 years of age in Boston; second I worked and arranged for Earl Bostic, that's when he had a small band there. I worked in the band and also arranged for Earl. Not exclusive, but I made several arrangements for him, see? And then the next was Benny Carter, the young Benny Carter. That's on alto. And on tenor, there was no one in that period but Coleman Hawkins. Because he was the greatest of all at that period, see? Then you listen to everybody else, see, so you can get something from everybody. MW: In fact, listening - BW: And then practice makes perfect is the old saying you know? You practice, you know? You can't just stay in - age hasn't really much to do with it. I mean that's, I've had that argument so much in Europe, you know. A lot of people think when you get old you can't play this or you can't play that. Age has nothing to do with it whatever. But education has a lot to do with it. You know? Education. Knowing what you're doing and the next thing important is to know what the other fellow is doing, because you can't copy if you don't know what the other fellow is doing also. So that's the way I keep up. And you have to practice too you know see? Then another thing I think is important, don't never get to the point that you think you sound so great, you know? You know? Always think there's more room for improvement. See because in music it's a science. There's no such thing as finished. You can always get a better tone. You can always get better ideas. You can always get new harmonies. So many things you can always -as long as you live see? So that, I think that clears your question. MW: That's a beautiful answer. Do you have a regular practice routine today? BW: Yeah, I practice every day around - more so than ever. I've been practicing now more so than I ever did in my life. On account of I'm not working as much as I did before. I have time, see, so the spare time that I have I just use the horn to work little things out, you know. Because you can always work them out you know. MW: Tell us about how it felt to get the phone call to be one of the "Statesmen of Jazz." BW: Huh? MW: Tell us about how it felt when you were called to be one of the members of the "Statesmen of Jazz" - the senior member. BW: Well I thought it was a great thing, see? And I still think it's a great thing in the regards that if I'm playing in it or who, I think the idea is great and I wish it a big success. But I think, I think that if we're going to record, I think we could have made more stress on getting a perfect record, and to do that you have to have rehearsals. See that's my only complaint, see? But the idea is great. Because you have thousands and thousands of guys 65 and over that play well. You may not have many 93 year olds, because they're not living. See but 65 and 70, you know, oh between 65 to 80 for instance, there's thousands of guys that, I'll tell you the truth, for my part, some of the best musicians who are playing jazz are over 65. The type of jazz I like, you know? MW: You know you are a living historian. Every time you play, you know, you're the oldest actually touring musician active in jazz. So every time you play, you are history. What does that feel like? BW: Well I don't know. That's what people say, you know they say, not mine. I'm just doing the best I can you know, see? I'm not - how the people feel, their reaction it's up to the people you know? I've been playing so much in the States, but in Europe, the reaction has been great, you know. Stand up ovations and so forth, every place I play. Crowded places, you know? And I was telling some friend of mine, I said jazz don't owe me anything because what I didn't make financially in the States, I made up for it in Europe. See so it's been good to me you know? MW: That's a wonderful story too. The fact that you have this positive relationship with the art form itself. BW: Yes well I've been in it a long time, see? I was playing as a soloist organ in the church and in concerts when I was three years old. I had my sister pumping the thing. I forget the name of that organ in that little church, the country organ. I couldn't reach the pedals, you know, you play like that. I couldn't reach it. I was too short. And my sister used to pump while I'd play. And I was doing concerts. It was booked as a boy wonder you know, one of those things. So I've been playing as a soloist a long time. MW: Yeah. Ninety years, wow. Have you have occasion during your many years of experience, to work with either Count Basie or Joe Williams? BW: No I haven't. No I haven't. I wish I did. But I tell you I did work with a band that, well I may be saying something that people will agree, you know, but I had a pleasure working with Jimmie Lunceford and I thought it was a greater band than Count Basie. Not musically. Not musically. Exclusive musically. But for all around entertaining and music combined, I think it was a better band than Count Basie. So I had the pleasure of working with Jimmie a couple of years, I mean Jimmie Lunceford see. And I worked with Fletcher Henderson three years. Fletcher was the king of swing at that time. It wasn't nobody, that was way before Basie or Duke and all those, Charlie Johnson or any of those bands. Fletcher pioneered. See that's why Benny Carter got, I mean Benny Goodman got him to make the arrangements. That's when I was working with Fletcher at the same time that he was arranging for Benny Goodman. And Fletcher was really something else there, as far as a swing group. There was nobody that could excel Fletcher, particularly after he made his change and got such guys as Coleman Hawkins, well Coleman was there first. But when he had Benny Carter in the band and he also got the great Louis Armstrong. And when he got the great Louis Armstrong, that, they did just like Ella Fitzgerald did with Chick Webb, you know, lifted them right on up higher and higher, you know? MW: Oh that's marvelous. BW: But the bands that I think were great were Jimmie Lunceford. Not that his band was any greater musically than Count, or Duke, or Fletcher, but we had more entertaining than all those bands. See we had five singers, individual singers in the band; we had a quartet; we had a trio; and we all did group singing. And we had five singers. Joe Thomas used to sing well, the little saxophone player, Willie Smith sang well, that's two. He had Dan Grissom as a soloist that sang all the time. We had Trummy Young back there singing and he had another trumpet player I forget his name, and Sy Oliver, you know. They all did well. So that was, for me, it was a little bit better than Count or Duke. I mean in my opinion you know. MW: As a alto sax player, can you relate to anything, relate for us anything that the innovations that came on the scene when Charlie Parker came on the scene? BW: Well explain that again. MW: How did he change the way that alto sax players played? BW: Well Charlie gets credit for that see? Of pioneering in a new style. Firstly, I've heard Benny Carter play so much when he was young, see? And I always thought Benny was a pioneer also. He started at, particularly at that period. But I give Charlie the credit of changing the scene in alto playing. But you know he did most of that when he arrived in New York. I heard him in Kansas City with Jimmy Sands. He wasn't playing exactly the same way. He was still, you could hear edges of his style coming out, but it wasn't perfected until he got associated in New York City with Dizzy. That's when it came out see? MW: If you, after all your many years of experience, if you could leave today's music scene in our young and upcoming students - BW: Well say that again I didn't understand you. MW: If you could leave our young students coming up with a word of wisdom about how this music is put together or why jazz is such a beautiful art form, or, could you just give us a word of wisdom? BW: Yeah I could say that right quick, I mean study. That's all. Study. You know what I mean? Remember that joke about the guy in the street on Seventh Avenue and another guy asked him, "how can I get to Carnegie Hall?" He says, "practice, man, practice." MW: Oh, that is great. That is great. BW: So study that's all. Other people, I know jazz musicians that try to tell some of the young guys they tell them nonsense I call it, they say, "oh man when you study too much it takes away from playing." That's the biggest lie that they ever heard of. There's no such thing as study taking away from anything. I don't care - I know there are guys that are gifted. Johnny Hodges is one of them. And so many I know that's one of them, that are gifted and play. See but it's nothing better than study. Know what you're doing. And the more you study the better you get. To prove it, some of the greatest musicians that we have in jazz are guys who have studied also. We have some that didn't okay. But that's my idea, I say study, you know, that's what I would say. Study harmonies, you know so you know what you're doing, see? The more harmonies you know the more you can place them, you know? MW: The more variation you can bring to the music. BW: That's right. And then, by studying you can play one way today and another way the next day, you know? I can, that's why I have so much trouble with the mic sometimes. I can't express myself the way I want to because I don't play entirely stereotype, you know? I play whatever comes to my mind but I can't do it if the mic don't work so I can hear myself. That's why I have so much trouble with the mic. So, and but you still can't play it unless, you must know it on your horn. You can't go beyond your knowledge, see? And if a person is playing and another person is playing, the other guy has more knowledge, it's going to sound better. It's going to sound better. If two guys have the same talent and the same, even a guy was playing a song called "Gut Bucket" saxophone, the guy was playing "Gut Bucket" saxophone and they're both playing the same. The one that has the most knowledge is the one who will sound better because he can take more advantages. So it goes back to the same thing, just study that's all, see? But the young kids are studying now. It's not like it used to be, see? So I took it up when I was 18 and it was rare. It was not many jazz musicians in this school where I went, the New England Conservatory. I took advantage of it only 'cause my mother, it was in her will for me to study music, not to study jazz, it was to study classics. MW: Tell us about that will. Tell us what was in that. BW: She wanted to tell my aunt to see that I went to the Conservatory, which I did. But I didn't do like she wanted - she wanted me to be a concert pianist. When I got to Boston I got to drinking whiskey and smoking and little tricks you know? But I still went three days a week as an irregular student for about five years. So I got a lock you know? MW: Yes. BW: I got a lock, see? It's always more you can learn, but I got quite a lot of musical knowledge from that. MW: A time of formal study seems - BW: I just stayed - in Europe I mean I was working with a piano player that also went to Berklee. But he didn't know how to play an introduction for a singer. So I got to the piano and played the introduction, the singer came in just as easy. But for what reason? Because at the end of the phrase where you're supposed to use a seventh chord, a dominant chord rather you can say more so, a dominant chord of a common song, to bring a singer in, because you can hear the note. He wasn't doing that. And I did. And that's from knowledge. It's not a gift, it's from knowledge. MW: Marvelous. BW: Now I'm not a piano player, see I'm a saxophone player. But this guy was a good piano player. But he just didn't know how to play for a singer, because he didn't have the experience you know? And the knowledge. MW: Well, this concludes our interview with the great Benny Waters, one of the most fabulous alto sax players in these United States. BW: Them's big words partner. MW: But you live up to it in every way. You live up to it in every way. BW: Well I thank you so much, but I don't feel that way myself. I just feel that I play quite well for my age and so forth, and I play quite well, but so many guys play so well, you know. MW: Thank you, thank you.
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Channel: Fillius Jazz Archive at Hamilton College
Views: 114
Rating: 5 out of 5
Keywords: Fletcher Henderson, Statesmen of Jazz, Cotton Club, Small's Paradise, solfeggio in improvisation, Charlie Johnson's Paradise Ten, Benny Waters, jazz saxophone, Michael Woods, Fillius Jazz Archive, Hamilton College
Id: P-i4H8Z15nE
Channel Id: undefined
Length: 34min 12sec (2052 seconds)
Published: Mon Oct 16 2017
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