Ben Shapiro, a Catholic Bishop and the Gospel.

it is good to be with you today I'm Mike winger and we're gonna talk right now about an Orthodox Jew and a Catholic bishop who had a conversation about the future destiny of the Orthodox Jew let me explain what happened it was actually Ben Shapiro who most of you are probably familiar with certainly more people know him than know me or Robert Barron for that matter more people know him but Ben Shapiro you know he's a commentator conservative commentator and activist you could check him out on The Daily wire calm and he's also an Orthodox Jew a lot of people don't realize this but Ben Shapiro is very strong in his Jewish beliefs he's very very serious about his Jewish religion and he had a conversation in an interview with Bishop Robert Barron recently and he's the auxiliary bishop of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles he's written many books he's like religious religion correspondent for NBC and he's you know he's well-known and he's got his whole youtube channel with lots of subs and he's got over a million followers on Facebook and he sort of is to some people one of the faces of the Catholic Church and so a question was asked by ben shapiro of this particular gentleman and the question was hey am i am i going to heaven from a Catholic perspective and so what we're gonna do is we're gonna look at the question that been asked we're gonna look at the the answer that Bishop Baron gave and then we're gonna step three we're gonna look at the biblical answer which I think Ben would want to hear because Ben he's very much like I'm with Ben on this like he's like hey you can just tell me what you think I'm interested to hear it I'm not you know just gonna jump down your throat he's not looking to respond emotionally to these things rather he actually is honestly asking what what is the perspective that say the Catholic house I'm gonna try to answer the perspective that the biblical Christian may have that the Bible gives I'm not gonna give my answer here my goal is to answer what scripture actually says on this topic I think it's really really important so here's my disclaimer real quick this is not an attack on kaathal okay this is not an attack on Catholicism or any person for that matter actually I'm not attacking atheists I'm not attacking ben shapiro no this is about truth and it's about thinking biblically and it's about finding true answers to serious questions of life without being so scared of offending people that we can't even talk about truth anymore because we're worried that someone will get mad and that sort of thing because as christians this is a biblical issue about the gospel and we live and die on this hill we live and die on this hill of the gospel of jesus christ and whether or not we have this truth right it will it will be about our souls and so we're gonna go to the video real quick I'll just play a quick clip from this here is the question that been asked for Bishop Baron so you can listen in and think you know how would you answer but let's think what specifically is he asking because we're gonna try answer this question ourselves as well oh and by the way if you have your questions if you have questions for me today put them in the comments on the livestream and my buddy AJ he's gonna try to compile those questions especially the ones that are on topic and he's gonna send those to me at the end of the stream and I will answer your questions as is my custom here on the Tuesday live stream every Tuesday at 5:00 p.m. Pacific Standard Time here's the question so let me ask you what's the Catholic view on who gets into heaven and who doesn't I feel like I lead a pretty good life a very religiously based life in which I try to keep not just the Ten Commandments but a solid 603 other Commandments as well and I spend an awful lot of my time promulgating what I would consider be judeo-christian virtues particularly in Western societies so what's the Catholic view of me am I basically screwed here okay so Ben's question is not about what about people who've never heard the gospel this is not Ben's question okay why do I stress this so strongly I know that as I start to answer these questions and deal with this stuff today that very quickly the topic can move over to a different issue which is it complicated it's not super complicated it's a little bit complicated but but I've already dealt with this issue in great detail I put a link in the video description to how I would answer the question biblically of what about those who've never heard live their entire lives and never hear of Jesus right I answered that biblically I use lots of scripture to support my my case on all that that's not Ben's question Ben's question is hey what about me what about me Ben says how am I in a fair on this whole eternal life thing the phrase go to heaven you know go to hell phrase that terminology is really sloppy as far as what God's eternal plan for recreated heaven and earth and and all that sort of thing but the that's the idea and and what does he say he kind of builds a case Ben build a case for why he thinks he should be okay he says I live a good life I follow the law and I do good things in the world so he follows the 613 commands right from the Torah and he he's very strong Orthodox Jew very religious and I don't mean that in a negative sense some people use that word like it's an insult I do not do that so he says I do good things in the world so Ben kind of sees this as like a merit system and he's feels like I'm accomplishing those things I'm doing my part and as far as on the scales of good and evil I'm more on the good than on the evil so that's his perspective on those things listen now to how Bishop Baron answers the question because here he has an Orthodox Jew who does not believe in Jesus he doesn't believe in the divinity of Christ he doesn't believe is to my understanding I mean I'm pretty confident of this he does not believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ and I'm operating with that belief here as I move forward and so here's how Barron Bishop Baron answers the question listen for specifically what he tells been a Jewish man who thinks his good works are doing or doing good for him he feels like he's obeying the Torah and doing good in the world he thinks that should kind of earn my way listen to how he answers Ben how will you fare when you stand before God so to speak and listen to what he says about the conscience because he's gonna say a couple things but one what he says about the conscience and what the conscience does and what you can do with your conscience to be saved is really interesting I don't think it's biblical but I want you to understand where he's coming from here we go so what's the Catholic view of me am I basically screwed here no the Catholic view would go back to the Second Vatican Council says it very clearly I mean Christ is the priviledge around to salvation my God so loved the world he gave His only Son that we might find eternal life so that's the privilege Rowlett however vatican ii clearly teaches that someone outside the explicit christian faith can be saved now they're saved through the grace of christ indirectly received so I mean the grace is coming from Christ but it might be received according to your of conscience so if you're following your conscience sincerely or in your case you're following the commandments of the law sincerely yeah you can be saved yes you can be saved and he gives specific and and now listen Bishop Baron is a very intelligent man who is thought through these issues a lot and he has prepared himself for answering these questions so I take him at his word that he uses his words intent fully and thoughtfully and carefully so it's not like he didn't really mean that so if you're interested in thinking that if that's your direction oh he didn't mean what he said I think you're mistaken I think this guy's too smart to not mean what he says in this particular scenario obviously even smart people sometimes say things I don't mean I did that in a recent video I do like put a comment down below I was like whoa that I didn't really mean it quite the way it sounded you know that does happen to people it happens to me for sure but I don't think that's what's happened here so what he says to them when Ben says hey am I am I out of luck he tells been quite simply his one-word answer was no you're not quote screwed you know Ben no that's the answer no and they need to find something he calls the privileged route that Jesus faith in Jesus is the privileged route and then he offers that means there's multiple ways right there's another way of salvation he'll still give Jesus credit for that other way of salvation but he's gonna offer really in a sense one major other route to be saved without faith without knowing Jesus I'll put it that way and that is in a word conscience conscience now let me quote him to you word for word he says in your case talking to Ben you're following the commandments of the law sincerely yeah you can be saved how by knowing about Jesus but rejecting him and following the commandments of the law sincerely so therefore he can be saved there we go that's that's the brief answer I'll get into a little bit more detail of these things and then we'll go through a biblical case on this topic but the question I would have for Bishop Baron would be do I need to evangelize Ben I mean as a Christian who knows and follows Jesus Christ who believes the Word of God and believes that that the entire Jewish Scriptures are the Jewish Scriptures involve old and new testaments do I have to evangelize Ben because it sounds like I don't it sounds like it's completely unnecessary to go and preach the gospel to Ben or any Jew for that matter if they're just being a good Jew they're there they're like you know they're they're being very religious they're very strict in their Jewishness why should I even bother evangelizing them there's no there's no need unless it's just because it's a nice thing to do because it's like it's a positive behavior but it's not that it's gonna benefit them with salvation versus not having salvation that's the implication of what he says now that's not actually I don't know that that's actually Catholic doctrine he invokes Vatican 2 so I went and looked up Vatican 2 I've looked up this before but the passage I think he's quoting from is from lumen gentium chapter 16 so we're gonna read through Vatican 2 because he says according to Bishop Baron Vatican 2 is very clear very clear he says it twice he says the phrase very clear that you can clearly see that that what he's about to espouse comes from Vatican 2 that bin can be saved knowing about Jesus but not following him having rejected him but being a good Jew who follows the law versus also a non-jewish person can be saved if they just follow their conscience yet they don't have necessarily knowledge of Christ or have not accepted Christ do they know about him or not he doesn't he doesn't answer that question so let's read Vatican 2 we'll read the section in mind here and you tell me how clear is Vatican 2 because I'll tell you right now Vatican 2 unlike the Council of Trent this is one of the ecumenical councils of the church we're one of a handful there's not too many this is binding truths that the whole church has to accept it's not optional right this is this is considered authoritative teaching of the church it's one of those rare moments where they say this is how it is take it or leave it so to speak but Vatican 2 this 1956 Council or 1965 council excuse me is when they finished it in December this council is very different than earlier councils of the church where they were very sort of clear black and white on issues they get kind of muddy here but let's just read through it it says finally those who have not yet received the gospel are related in various ways to the people of God in the first place we must recall the people to whom the Testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh on account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God for God does not repent of the gifts he makes nor of the calls he issues okay so we hey we're drawing our attention to the Jewish people they don't use the word Jewish or Israel here but the Jewish people are clearly in mind in this passage but it hasn't said anything about them except that God doesn't repent of his gifts well I mean that's my theology that God has a plan for Israel I have some videos about God's plan for Israel and stuff like that in my playlists on YouTube and I think there's this glorious beautiful plan for the future of Israel and I'm excited for it for when it takes place but but that's not what they're saying here they just don't say anything they just say let's think about them okay but what do they say well let's keep reading but the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the creator in the first place among these are the Muslims who professing to hold the faith of Abraham along with us adore the one and merciful God who on the last day will judge mankind okay so you know they actually see this vatican ii actually says more about muslims than it does about jews it says that Jews worship the one true God or Samia says Muslims worship the one true God it just says that the Jewish people have gods doesn't repent of the gifts that he's given them so it doesn't really say anything about their future or anything like that or but it but for the Muslims they worship the one true God I would disagree I think that they if you deny the Sun you deny the father too so I think they've denied the father by their doctrines of denying the Sun but but I'm trying to be biblical and clear here I'm not this if people hear me and they think this is an insulting thing I would just say you're not able you're not thinking clearly about it you're just thinking emotionally and that's a way for you to get trapped into false thinking is to just think purely emotionally I'm we're not robots we have emotions but we can't we can't process facts always with our feelings i think i think ben shapiro would agree with me on that so there's the muslims and then it goes on and it says nor is god far distant from those who in shadows and an images seek the unknown for it is he who calls all gives all gives to all men life and breath and all things and as Savior wills that all men be saved those also can attain to salvation who through now this is where it gets important how they can attain salvation they can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the gospel of Christ or his church yes sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do his will and it is known to them through the dictates of conscience as it is known so there he's saying yeah the the vatican ii says jewish people muslims and then it mentions those who simply have never heard anything of the gospel and so then it says like they can be saved if they do what they sincerely seek god how are you sincerely seeking okay i'll come back to this sincerity is not the key here guys sincerity is not the key because you can be sincerely wrong that's what deception is people who are deceived are sincere it's the nature of deception but here you have to be sincere and then you have to do good deeds so catholicism has a gospel of some grace mixed with works and that's what this is except here it's it's about without without knowledge of jesus then it goes on nor does divine providence deny that helps necessary for salvation to those who without blame on their part have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace just to strive to live a good life those were atheist by the way a certain kind of atheist Vatican 2 lists a bunch of different types of atheists and some are in trouble and some are in less trouble here it's the one who's sort of just ignorant they're not they haven't really weighed things out and thought them out carefully that's my understanding of Vatican 2 maybe I'm wrong but that's what I think it is whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the church as a preparation for the gospel she knows that it is given by him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life but often men deceived by the evil one have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie serving the creature rather than the Creator okay so Vatican choose not clear that's the bottom line there it doesn't specifically address been Shapiro's question he's asking as a Jew who rejects Jesus what am I but he's gonna use baron no I don't care guys if Vatican 2 says everyone saved and and even you know like and all puppy dogs go to heaven that's fine by me because I'm not bound to Vatican 2 I'm just trying to analyze Bishop barons statements you see within the Catholic Church there's debates about what Vatican 2 even means and there's different branches of thought and Bishop Baron seems like he's more on the liberal side the progressive side when it comes to religious thinking than he is on the conservative side and that's the swing that the Catholic Church has been making over the past like maybe for my understanding maybe eight years or so it's just been swinging over to more and more that that that progressive side of things religiously speaking so that's where he says Vatican 2 is clear I I don't know that it is but he says that an atheist of goodwill can be saved he doesn't specify if had akin to is actually a little more clear when you read that and some other passages then he goes on though and Bishop Baron says this about the conscience and this I think is really important to understand this is his theology of the conscience it's different than the Bible um he says that the the conscience is the voice of Christ he says something a quote from some guys like the Aboriginal voice of Christ something like that but but I wrote down the quote he says the conscience is the voice of Christ and then he goes on in the next sentence to say when I'm following my conscience I'm following him whether I know it or not so to him if a person's living a good life then they're then they're following Jesus without knowing it that's not what the scripture talks about it's not the function of the conscience according to the Bible and it's not what we learn from our conscience according to Scripture in fact it's so different from the Bible that I would say that it's it's an unchristian teaching and it actually violates what I actually read in the New Testament when I go there so here we go let's dig into the scriptures this is not how I would answer the question so much as what I think the Bible is saying when we ask the scripture these issues because by Barron's definition by Bishop Barron's definition Paul himself was saved before he ever met Jesus because was he not sincere well it's let's take a look Paul the Apostle was incredibly sincere listen em he says my manner of life from my youth he says I spent from the beginning among my own nation and in Jerusalem is all known by there is no by all the Jews everybody knows the way I lived and then he describes it they've known for a long time if they're willing to testify that according to the strictest party of our religion I lived as a Pharisee he like almost like been oh he says I'm an Orthodox Jew I'm like very strict in these things you know Paul was even more strict than Ben is on these topics and it says you know I was really strict the strictest sect of the Pharisees and now I stand verse 6 here on trial because of my hope and the promise made by God to our fathers and so he he never abandoned his Judaism he he rather saw Christianity which is like saying messianic he believed in Messiah as the fulfillment of this net' of this Judaism but Paul describes his previous life before Christ as the strict Jewish life where he was very careful to obey the law the 613 plus more now in Philippians chapter 3 he gets into more details listen to what Paul says because Bishop Baron would have would have counseled Paul possibly that he doesn't need to worry about this whole Jesus thing that he's saved because he's following his conscience and he's sincere he says though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also if anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh I have more circumcised he starts to give a list circumcised on the eighth day of the people of Israel of the tribe of Benjamin a Hebrew of Hebrews as to the law a Pharisee as to zeal a persecutor of the church now that wasn't cuz he was mad because he had zeal love for his Jewish beliefs so then he persecute the church he was totally sincere in those things as to righteousness under the law blameless he says I was blameless according to the righteousness under the law now this this is this is Paul the Apostle who believed he wasn't saved until he came to know Christ and listen to how he describes how all that stuff doesn't count it didn't get him salvation it didn't give him righteousness it counts for nothing listen to what he calls it in verse 7 he goes whatever I gain I had I counted as loss for the sake of Christ indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord can I say this way the surpassing worth of knowing Messiah Yeshua my lord the he'd found the Messiah the fulfillment and he he was rejoicing in that he says for the heat for his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish in order that I may gain Christ Messiah and be found in him not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law that's what Ben was saying I I followed the law I feel like I'm a good person Paul says no no I don't have a righteousness from the law no no no I have that which comes through faith in Christ the righteousness from God that depends on faith you see me obeying the law as a righteousness that's supposed to come from me but I'm not righteous me trusting in Christ is the righteousness of God that comes from God upon my life so which do you prefer certainly he goes on that I may know him and the power of his resurrection and may share in his sufferings becoming like him in his death that by any means possible I may attain to the resurrection from the dead because to Paul there is no other way to be resurrected to receive the now the Jewish hope is the resurrection it's not not just this ethereal heaven idea that's like a temporary location right but there's this ultimate restoration resurrection and restoral of all things that's the Jewish hope that's the Christian hope and Paul says I found that in Christ and that that would be I think Paul's answer would be to say to to Ben hey this is this you Ben you're going about it wrong you're you're looking for righteousness by your goodness your works that's just that's just the the wrong method of what it means to to be forgiven and be saved so what would Jesus say well in in John chapter 3 see the Bible's filled with information answering this question I don't need to go to Vatican 2 I don't have to go to Vatican 1 I don't need a third Vatican Council I don't know how I don't need Trent like I could just go right to the scriptures Jesus actually met a Pharisee in John chapter 3 it says now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus a ruler of the Jews this man came to Jesus by night and said to him rabbi we know that you were a teacher come from God for no one can do these signs that you do unless God with him jesus answered him truly truly I say to you unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God why didn't he say Nicodemus I can see that you're sincere I can see that you really are seeking to follow the law don't worry you'll be fine my grace will cover you you're worshiping me without even knowing it don't worry about it Nicodemus instead he tells Nicodemus that with all his pharisaical rules which by the way we think of Pharisees as bad guys sometimes not necessarily the case they were strict guys as what they were they were very strict some of them had issues some of them like Nicodemus ends up being a follower of Jesus at a later date and so Jesus tells him that with all your strict rules it's not enough you need to be born again you need a whole new life transformation to take place and Nic Nicodemus says to him in verse 4 how can a man be born when he is old can he enter a second time into his mother's womb well you know Jesus then explains what he means right that this this spiritual birth the verse 6 he says that which is born of flesh is flesh that which was born of spirit is spirit so he's speaking of a spiritual verse that has to happen and then in matthew chapter 5 verse 20 christ also speaks on the same topic so so wouldn't that be how Christ would answer been where you say been you've got to be born again you need to be born again ben matthew 5:20 for i tell you unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and pharisees you will never enter the kingdom of heaven well the pharisees and the scribes had extremely high standards extremely high standards but they weren't righteous enough and that it needed to be even higher still so jesus is saying it's not enough your righteousness is not enough it's not good enough here in a Luke 18 Jesus has another situation where someone perhaps kind of like Ben comes to him and there's rich young ruler and a ruler asked him good teacher what must I do to inherit eternal life and Jesus said to him why do you call me good no one is good except God alone you know the commandments do not commit adultery do not murder do not steal do not bear false witness honor your father and mother so these are two things Jesus says first he's like why do you call me good he's already bringing into question the rule of those rich persons as ruler his standard of what is good and what is evil his standard was based upon comparing human to humans instead of comparing humans to God so Jesus is saying hey why do you call me good no one is good except God alone now Jesus himself he's not saying he's not good he actually is good he's and he's God so he's he's good and he's God but the question isn't is Jesus good the question is is this rulers understanding of goodness is that proper is it right when someone says how you doing you go I'm good or he's good at that job or he seems like a good person well I may be good for a person but he's not good compared to God in His righteousness so Jesus says to him like you know the commandments and then verse 21 he says all these I have kept from my youth when Jesus heard this he said to him one thing you still lack sell all that you have and distribute it to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven and come follow me but when he heard these things he became very sad for he was extremely rich so then Jesus highlights an issue he brings up a topic Christ knows the heart of this man and he says hey sell all that you have and come follow me and the man realizes that he has a bondage to his wealth a bondage to his finances now not every Christian has to sell all that they have know but this was a specific command from Jesus to this guy to bring out a specific issue his love of money you see maybe you've got some of the commandments down maybe you've got some of the goodness that you feel you've got settled but there's areas where you know you're a sinner and you know you fail and you still fail and you'll fail tomorrow and if someone was to ask you that one question you're afraid they'll ask about your secret life here or your real issues of your heart there then it would reveal they would reveal that something's wrong and that's what happens with this this ruler so he's sad and he leaves and in verse 24 Jesus seeing that he become sad said how difficult is it it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God those who heard it then said then who could be saved Jesus and how can anybody be saved if it's that hard and Jesus see he's trying to show you how hard it is to be saved through goodness through your goodness so that you will then realize verse 27 what is impossible with man is possible with God the thing is as much as I strive to do good things to get to heaven is that I have that good person test in the back of my head I always fail it once I realize that my goodness as compared to God's goodness not compared to like my neighbor my buddy over here or my sibling it's compared to God's goodness so I fall short and I need God's grace I need a different path of salvation than my righteousness I need God's righteousness given to me this is this is Christianity 101 this is Christianity 101 stuff right now Bishop Baron said to to bend that because he'd follow to the law he was going to be okay he follows the law in the case of a Gentile might be following their conscience but Ben follows the law and he's sincere and those two ingredients can equal salvation for Ben that maybe then the implication is he'll be saved he didn't guarantee it but he implied it right there was two ingredients sincerity and following the law we've already seen that Paul the Apostle he had both of those things and he wasn't saved until he knew Christ we've already seen that others had those things in Christ says yeah you you follow the law but you don't you don't really from the inside out know the righteousness of God you're not good enough that's the bottom line because the purpose of the law is not to fix people it's to reveal our sin Romans 3:19 it says now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who were under the law so that here's what they'll here's what the laws trying to accomplish that every mouth may be stopped our boasting is stopped and the whole world may be held accountable to God for by the works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight since through the law comes what comes through the law not a not the voice of Christ that I follow so that I might through my good works achieve some version of salvation with without really knowing Jesus like that's not the statement no rather through the law comes the knowledge of sin that's the idea so that Ben should know as he looks into the law and he sees the goodness of and the and the meaning of it and the heart behind it and he should look at his own life and say I don't do this you know no matter how much I try I don't do this I'm better than that guy but I'm not like that I'm not like God I'm not like the righteousness of Christ of God and so then in Galatians 2 we get this again more scripture on this topic for us Christians Kay Catholic hey you believe the Bible to your wife a Catholics watching me I'm not attacking I'm not maybe you feel like I am certainly not trying to can we agree this that if the Bible disagrees with Bishop Baron then we should go with what scripture says and I would go a step further and say if the Bible disagrees with Vatican 2 we should go with what scripture says so here we are Galatians 2:15 it says we ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners yet we know that a person is not justified by the works of the law that's exactly what Ben you know had asked about and now Ben's I don't think be offended by this he'd be like yeah just explain your position to me at least at least he can understand you know yeah it works the law don't justify you those good things you do they don't cover up your sin they don't deal with the wickedness that's inside and you never really do all the good that you know you should do proving that something's morally wrong with us so by the works of the law no one is justified but but by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ so we also have believed in Christ Jesus in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law because by works of the law no one will be justified yet this is the implication of the of the the teaching the bishop bearing gave in his in his conversation you know in the Sermon on the Mount Jesus he went through great lengths I think to clarify this issue to say hey look you know you've heard it was said right don't commit adultery well that's that's true don't commit adultery but he says but if you lust you look at a woman with lust you've committed adultery in your heart and all of a sudden it's like oh gosh wait like it's that strict god you want those outer laws to be happening in the inner heart of man the outer law of not committing adultery I'm not stealing that has to happen in the inner heart of man as well because that's not what always happens in my heart yes but that's that's why you're supposed to see the long-ago yes I'm a sinner I need the grace of God I can't get there through my good works I need Jesus to be the substitute pay the price for my sins that I might become born-again washed clean through his blood this is this is very very Jewish now what would Paul the Apostle say if he was asked this question say it was him instead of it's that of Baron Bishop Baron there what would Paul the apostle's say well in Romans 10 he talked about his love for the Jewish people and his heart's desire for them he speaks of of his desire he says brothers my heart's desire and prayer to God for them for Israel is that they may be saved but or for I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God but not according to knowledge well did not does not that mean that the Jews of Paul's time the ones that did not know Christ cuz many Jews did Paul was a Jew who knew Christ and who knew Messiah and who followed but there are many who didn't and when he says they have a zeal for God does that not mean that they're sincerely sincerely thinking that I'm following after the God of Abraham and I'm doing his will they believed they were so they had sincerity that was one of the ingredients that Bishop Baron said that Ben had and it made it okay the other was the law right so I bear them witness they have a zeal for God but not according to knowledge for being ignorant of the righteousness of God and seeking to establish their own righteousness they did not submit to God's righteousness this is exactly what what Ben has done Ben is echoing Romans 10 here 2,000 years later because he says you know I feel like I'm a good person I try to obey the law and I'm sincere I have this real zeal and he's saying look Paul's going look you got zeal you got the law and you're trying to establish your own righteousness you doing good things to get you salvation well unfortunately that's ignorant of God's righteousness his standards are much higher than you realize Ben they're much higher and I would say this to anybody Ben or or say the New Age person who thinks that their good works are gonna earn their path to heaven or the person who's who you say you're Christian even but you just you think that you're a good enough person and you know you kind of need a little bit of Jesus in your life but you're a good person you know and you don't realize that you're you're a lost sinner apart from God and that there's sin comes from within us that the reason why I do wicked things is cuz something's wrong with me like I wouldn't do it if there what if it wasn't in me to do it you know so he says Christ is the end of the law of for righteousness to everyone who believes Ben refers to the law for righteousness and guess what Bishop Baron he implied it too he had a version of grace plus law Oh God's Christ's grace will be on you but you're sincerely following the law and that effort will help you know make sure you're saved and it gets real muddy and confusing the way that he'll express it because it'll be very poetic very contradictory in fact I'm sorry but Bishop Baron has actually been the whole book on the on paradoxes in the catholic belief system and so he'll he'll speak two things that seem contradictory in any and to him that totally works and in this case i'm gonna say i think that that's a problem so romans 10 and then as we read on verse five he says for moses writes about the righteousness that's based on the law that the person who does the commandments shall live by them right that's but nobody does the commandment that's the context of romans but no one's actually doing it that's the problem we it is a good path of righteousness that no one follows verse six but the righteousness based on faith says do not say in your heart who will ascend into heaven that is to bring christ down or who will descend into the abyss that is to bring christ up from the dead but what does it say the word is near you in your mouth in your heart that is the Word of Faith that we proclaim because if you confess with your mouth that the Lord that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved and you know what that's what that's what Paul would say to Ben Ben if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved for with the heart one believes and is justified that's how our justification comes I just trust belief and with the mouth one confesses and is saved for the scripture says everyone who believes in Him will not be put to shame and there's this just beautiful amazing stuff in there he parallels the law of Moses the law was given and God's like hey don't act like I didn't tell you what to do well now God has given us the gospel and he says don't act like I didn't tell you what to believe and I'll sir another scripture here in Romans four but I think Paul might share with Ben and I if I could talk to Ben I'd love to share it with him now like he knows who I am but Romans four verse one it says what then shall we say was gained by Abraham our forefather according to the flesh was Abraham a good person is how he achieved his standing before God for if Abraham was justified by works he has something to boast about but not before God for what does the scripture say abraham believed god was accounted to him as righteousness now to the one who works his wages are not counted as gift but his due into the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly his faith is counted as righteousness what is the scripture from abraham believed god this is not some new testament teaching that pops out of nowhere after jesus shows up rather this is Genesis 15 Abraham the father of the Jewish people and it says that God promised Abraham that he would multiply his offspring in all this and it ultimately leads to the Messiah and been what I think Ben would agree that that all of the Mosaic writings they speak of Messiah ultimately I think that he would agree he's rabbinic a rabbinic Jew so Genesis 15:6 it says and he believed the Lord and he counted it to him as righteousness here we have Abraham the father of the Jews having an example of how he got righteous simply by faith before before the law before all that stuff was given and so we see the New Testament is a Jewish book written by Jewish people in fulfillment of the Jewish promises of the God of the Jews and the in in the in the the Torah and the Netafim and the Ketuvim that Tanakh write the Old Testament as we often say and then fulfilled there as the Messiah shows up and then he has his Jewish followers writing the New Testament for us to understand these things and explain them I would encourage been read the New Testament read it like it's a book written by Jews for Jews about the Jewish Messiah in fact that's the downside a lot of the Gentiles like myself have is we we forget how Jewish this whole thing is and so am i teaching like on Romans in particular I try to highlight that and bring it out now again if you guys have questions put those in the comments section I'll come to those in a little bit here and I'll try to answer your questions especially if they're on topic now that Romans passage mentions one example of the Old Testament saved by faith the second example is actually David in verse 6 of Romans 4 it's talking about David it says just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works that's what I would tell Ben you need righteousness apart from works buddy your good works aren't enough you might be better than the next guy but you're not not as good as God and I think he knows that he's not as good as God right so according from psalm 32 blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven and whose sins are covered blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin so this this this is the blessedness that I would want to come upon everybody out there that you turn to turn to Christ trust in Jesus Christ your good works are not good enough his are believed in him now why is it that I might say on a related issue that in particular there's a problem when you have a gentleman like say ben shapiro or or someone who has well in a lot of ways I like Ben you know and we have the same worldview and so a lot of the political opinions that he shares I can get behind many of them because it comes from a conservative Christian judeo-christian ethic but I would say that there's a problem in that you've been exposed to Jesus but you haven't received him because according at least to the New Testament here's the Christian teaching on it when a person encounters Jesus something about their heart gets revealed if they're one of those individuals who has really been been trusting in the Old Testament trusting in the Scriptures trusting in what Moses wrote when they meet Jesus if they're believing it the right way when they meet Jesus they'll accept Jesus so John 5:45 Jesus says do not think that I will accuse you to the father there is one who accuses you Moses on whom you've set your hope for if you believed Moses you would believe me you catch that if you believed Moses you would believe me for the individual who is this sincere person who's never heard of Jesus but they have believed in the revelation God's given them they have put their faith and trust in God they just haven't heard the gospel yet when they hear the gospel they will believe it that's just like the guarantee if you believed Moses you would believe me for he wrote of me but if you did not believe his writings how will you believe my words Jesus is saying of these very religious Jewish people you have all of you have these things from Moses but you don't get Moses like you don't see it and you don't see me for I am this is why Jesus told parables right he would tell a parable and this would be like the dividing line for when people would either receive Christ to reject him on these parable issues it would reveal what was in the heart of those men all along after you've had Moses and then Jesus shows up Jesus shows you whether or not you've really received Moses properly and that's the New Testament teaching on it just like Israel often in the Old Testament they would they would say oh we we believe in God we believe in Yahweh and we we trust in his name and we we honor and worship Him and then Jeremiah would come up and they'd be like get out of here Jeremiah we hate you and then God's basically saying hey Jeremiah they say they believe me but when they don't receive you it shows that they haven't been receiving me and so how much more Messiah the son of God when he comes whether we accept him or not it shows whether or not we really are right with God in the first place man - to the Jewish person I gotta say as a Gentile we're borrowing your Messiah Christianity is not a Gentile religion Christianity is a Jewish religion it's Messianic Judaism that is being grafted in Gentiles brought Gentiles into this faith because as it was always supposed to be to be a light to the world it brought in the world to know the Messiah we're borrowing your Messiah he's your Messiah I'm grafted in and I'm grateful to be so this is not about abandoning the Torah or abandoning living Jewish it's about knowing the Messiah and knowing what it was all about all along and I have some links below in the video description where I talk about some of these issues in more detail I talked about like a Jewish gospel and how to witness to Jewish people and things like that and I'm in my studies and Romans links are all down below as well as link to the original video that I'm commenting on here I will say this compare my answer and obviously I went a lot longer than he did I'll admit it but compare my answer to Bishop Behrens and ask yourself this which one was clearer and which one was confusing which one was biblical and which one was not and I think that you you'll get your bottom line answers there yeah the good person thing it's a false gospel and that's why we're on red alert today because that's ultimately a false gospel and false Gospels not like I'm not saying let's pick up stones and throw them no that's not really the way we do things I'm saying we got to call things out as they are that's not that's not true to the actual gospel of Christ which says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God but we were justified freely by His grace when we put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ and if false gospel is a problem because it's a cure that doesn't cure you it just kills you so yes I will take your guys questions now if you have anything to share send it on over and I'm happy to answer those questions so here we actually here we go here's number one from Michael Cato thanks by the way you guys for joining me today we've got almost like almost 400 people looks like yeah that's pretty neat and it's good too good to have you I hope that this has provided some clarity in all honesty like the reason why I would jump on the bandwagon of top jumping on a topic that's obviously gonna be a hot-button issue is because I see this as an opportunity to leverage what's going on with you know Ben Shapiro and Robert Barron and say hey this is a great way to slip the gospel right in there into a into a hot-button topic that's going on right now and trending in and that that's my goal here I want the gospel out there and that's why I'm doing this so Michael Cato says question for Mike when did inclusive ISM slash relativism become so prevalent in the Roman Catholic Church has a bid in response to modern culture I can't I can't entirely answer that question but inclusive ISM and relativism isn't exactly what Vatican two gets across but Vatican two ends up being a little bit vague and hard to understand and they meant it to be that way it is meant to be a document that is not really clear I think that that's totally deliberate and purposeful reeve at akin to if you like Trent we read it and compare a Council of Trent from the 1500s when they responded to the to the Reformation extremely clear right very crystal clear on the topics they were clear they wanted to be Vatican two they didn't want to be clear and I don't think that could be clear because I think at that point in the Catholic Church amongst all the bishops gathered debating they're not in agreement anymore and so they have to like joseline and muddy the language so that they can get everyone to agree to it so it's yeah it's been happening slowly over time and I'm sure one else someone else could answer that one probably better than I could but yeah in in a sense Christianity is incredibly inclusive because we're like yeah everyone can be saved just put faith in Jesus I mean that's why it is inclusive as it gets in one sense of the word we're just saying you don't get there without Jesus and that's the exclusive nature of Christianity and that's that's the reality that's the way it is so we have no right to pretend it's otherwise and to pretend it's otherwise is to lead people to a path that that does not accomplish salvation Jacob Inglot says my question for Mike is how much of God's revelation of himself does one have to change in order for their doctrine to be considered a heretical doctrine example Mormonism well I would look at it as okay imagine you've got a circle and in the center of the circle you have core core doctrines some people use a spiderweb example I'll use a spiderweb how's that sound you've got the spiderweb and and here you go on this spider web in the middle of the web you've got and this isn't exactly how spider webs work but let's pretend it is in the middle of the web you've got core doctrines like the identity of Christ and salvation through faith in Christ up by grace apart from works center issue you snip that the whole web falls apart on the outskirts you have other issues like say speaking in tongues or what type of church government is a biblical / is a biblical church government or how do you handle the topic of excommunication or disfellowshipping and these things are on the outside and if you snip them if you get them wrong you may damage the web somehow but it won't ruin the whole thing so we would look at it and say you know core doctrines like like how I'm saved who God is core doctrines can't get it wrong or you lose you lose the whole thing and then important true doctrines but yet they will not cost you your salvation further on the outside Mormonism is an example where you go to the Gospel message itself and you find it's a salvation by grace plus works by the way I'll throw this out there this is this point that James White makes all the time and it's really important for us to know as well I appreciate that he makes it and he he put to something like it's not the necessity of grace that false religions deny it is the sufficiency of grace you see Mormons will say you need grace Jehovah's Witnesses will say you need grace Catholicism says you need grace Ben Ben Shapiro's Orthodox Judaism will also say you need grace but they will all say that you have you have to have your works as well you have to either cooperate with grace or whatever poetic language they want to use you have to have grace plus works see grace alone is not enough for your salvation in those religious things and I would say that's a that's a gospel issue that's the middle of the web right there I am saved by grace alone apart from works lest any man should boast I once a true story I read that accorded that passage Ephesians 2:2 a Catholic friend of mine one time we were debating late at night about religion and in a friendly way and I I said I said but Tony you know it's by grace you've been saved through faith alone and and and not of works right it's it's apart from your gosh it's so funny as you you you you know a verse until you go to quote it Ephesians by grace you've been saved through faith and this is not your own doing is the gift of God not a result of works so that no one may boast and and my friend Tony looked at me he's strong Catholic right sincere Catholic and he says he goes now Mike if that was in the Bible that would be scary and so I grabbed my Bible and I was like Tony look I showed it to him and he says well I don't think it means what you think it means Mike and at that point I think his his he had a problem because I didn't tell him what it meant he knew what it meant just by hearing me quoted and said it would be scary because it would conflict his with his teaching so so anyways Corey issues court issues yeah number three Mariano Rogers says do you think Benna is too prideful in his knowledge as a Jew and political pundit to accept Jesus as Messiah I don't I don't know if it's heart I don't know and I don't think it's wise for me to even guess that an answer to a question like that to be honest so I'd say I'd say Ben's wrong and I can say that as a factual statement as far as and I can say what Paul says here he's he's ignorant of God's righteousness he's not realizing how righteous God really is so he's trying to establish his own righteousness instead of getting the righteousness of God that comes through faith apart from works through faith in Christ that I can say barely Protestant interesting YouTube nick says Mike if someone could die from receiving Communion wrongly doesn't that imply it's more than just a symbol I would say I don't know that they I don't know that if you've summarized that passage in 1st Corinthians properly when you say they died from receiving Communion wrongly they treated yeah it's it's similar to that but but I would say this I do think communion is more than just a symbol I agree with you coming is more than just a symbol I just don't think it is transubstantiation whereas the actual but the the the Catholic teaching on this would be would be to say that the body the the bread becomes the physical flesh of Christ like like it literally is the physical not symbolically not metaphorically not in a spiritual sense in a literal sense it's the physical flesh of Christ and the and the the wine becomes the literal blood of Christ so you're you're eating the the wine and the blood and it goes back to like an old philosophical view of reality where they believed in accidents and substance and the accidents was what things look like and the substance was what stuff was really made of and so it has the accidents the appearance of bread and wine but it's really blood and flesh and they believe that re sacrificing Christ of the Eucharist and I have stuff on this in my video series on Catholicism so if you go to look that up mike winger I think it's Catholicism refuted biblically I think is the term that I put for the playlist T kua says question for Mike did God choose the Jews as a religious group or is it based on an ethnic line oh okay no so it's well the Jews were chosen based upon an a bloodline an actual ethnic bloodline but they were given truth from God that would guide them in religion and you could convert and become a Jew you know religiously but it is make us Nikoli a Jew so there's I would say he chose the group based upon upon a promise to Abraham about his descendant which ultimately would be Jesus but that promise was to bless the whole world so he chooses them because they're the same as everyone else they're no better no worse they're just like normal people but he chooses them to do a work of His grace and His goodness through their lives and and then he gives them you know proper true religious teachings and practices and things like that number six dc-7 if i if i pronounced that correctly I hope want to know what it means to believe like mentally and fruits come out automatically or following his laws and being fruitful while in full holiness okay so the English there's a little bit rough for me to understand but I think you're saying the relationship between you the fruit of living out Christ in your life following Jesus in your life versus when versus belief itself and so I'd say this is that that faith is an actual choice to trust that's what it is it's a decision I will trust you God I will trust you faith is not a blind leap faith is not a evidence evidence list conviction it's none of those things it's a choice to trust I choose to trust you so the the operative word with faith is trust or even even investment the idea of I'm investing my life I choose to really entrust myself to this truth and and then of course fruit from that is because I really believe it you'll see me live it out you know if I really believe there's a hundred dollar bill under my chair I'll reach under there and try to grab it so if you're living it out that's the idea so ii believe it's simple it's super simple and this is a beautiful thing about the gospel like do you trust in christ well I don't know well do you trust in Christ or not I don't know you know yeah yeah you do like do you trust in Christ or not it's so beautifully simple and then the fruit of that comes as we live out our lives now the beautiful thing about following Christ you trust in Christ he causes you to be born again gives you his holy spirit and now you have is power living within you that also producing fruit so that becomes a natural evidence of his work in your life Jacob Inglot asks ask Mike if he will do a teaching on the biblical definitions of words like believe faith and repentance hey there you go it just kind of hit I'll just add repentance in the mix their repentance is the idea of turning from one thing to another to turn I like the illustration of like a gazelle and it's being chased by a predator they could jump in the air and then rotate and then shoot off in a new direction so yeah repentance is the act of turning I don't think that repentance equals perfect sinlessness or something like that if it does then none of us are Christians but uh but yeah I'm sure there's more I can say on that but there's just an idea for you and then finally Sarah Beauchamp says a question for Pastor Mike what do you think about his comment that even atheist can be saved oh I'm glad you brought that up Sarah even atheists can be saved so Vatican 2 compared to Bishop Baron is very different like as I hear Bishop Baron it sounds like oh as long as you're sincere atheist and you try to live a good life you're probably gonna be okay like if I just heard what Bishop Baron said now maybe he has a lot more he's taught on the topic and but but if you just take the interview that's what it sounds like on the flip side if I if I go to read Vatican 2 it describes different kinds of atheists the one who never really even thinks about God he just never has bothered himself to ponder these things and he's an atheist then there's a different kind the one who actively resists God and and and and they they sort of hate God and then it describes another kind one who they reject God but they they have such a twisted idea of who God is that they're not even rejecting the real God that's what Vatican 2 says they're not really rejecting the real God because they have a twisted version of him in their head I think all of this is being made a little too complicated by the by the Vatican Council and I think that the the thing that will help us is this God says that creation and conscience are revealing the truth to each man individually and that when man rejects God it's not like he's knowingly rejecting God at all states of their life instead it's like this once I reject that truth of God I become hardened Romans 1 right I'd given over to a depraved mind I'm allowed to fall into false thinking so that now I may sincerely believe a lie God gave them over to a lie I may really believe the lie that God is wicked and God is cruel and God is must the evil god of the Old Testament I really believe those things I'm sincere but that's sincere false belief is a result of me having rejected the truth of God and embraced a lie so that even my sincere false beliefs are in a sense God's judgment upon me in which case I don't see a lot of room there for salvation in some sense in any sense for that person who rejects who rejects God so that would be I think I think that that would be hopefully hopefully a good answer for that so you guys I hope this has been fruitful for you look quick update on what's coming up I was not planning on doing any more videos this year this was gonna be it until January but I might do one more maybe even before Christmas so just be looking out I don't know when it'll be it just depends on the schedule I might just throw it up there I was gonna do an evaluation of the song o come Emmanuel actually appropriate for this topic in ransom captive Israel beautiful song I thought you just do a Bible study on this song it seemed exciting to me to do and it's a really deep thoughtful song actually when you get into the lyrics of it and so might do one more this year we'll see what happens this has been such a beautiful year for me online and online ministry um I started with 9,000 something subscribers in January and just the other day I bumped over 40,000 subs here on YouTube and I don't know what it'll be next week or next month or next year this time god is good and the opportunity to reach people and minister to them the truth of Christ thinking biblically about everything learning how to reason and biblically in life answering tough questions interacting with schedule skeptical community and different religious beliefs and reaching out seeing people come out of cult groups and sending messages about how someone has faith in Christ as a result of this ministry it's been a really good year and I praise God and give them all the glory and I'm so blessed to just get to do it I'm just a guy and I'm humbled that I get to even be part of this and God's using it for for good things so lord bless you guys a wonderful year rest of the year and I'll probably see you briefly you know sometime before Christmas if you catch the live stream take care

Channel: Mike Winger

Views: 152,253

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Keywords: Ben Shapiro Robert Barron, Ben Shapiro catholic bishop, Ben Shapiro gospel, Mike Winger Ben Shapiro, Catholic gospel

Id: MSVYetPq1_U

Length: 58min 4sec (3484 seconds)

Published: Tue Dec 18 2018