Beatrice Chestnut - Type 5 Enneagram Panel

[Music] I'm very happy to welcome this five panel here this morning thank you for being here we have Terry and Tracy and Richard and Michael and before we start I will just do about a five minute introduction to type five so now we're in the head triad we've done the body base triad eight nine and one and we've done the heart base triad two three and four now we're at the last tried of types five six and seven so today we'll be talking about these types that are based in more in the head more in the thinking function this is these are types that tend to feel more at home in the intellects at the cognitive level these sometimes called mental types so as I've said before we all have all three centers but when we come into personality personality is a way of focusing on a more narrow slice of reality as a way of surviving in the world and the head types feel most at home in the mental center in the thinking activity just like the other two types felt more at home either in the body based center or the heart base now even saying feel more at home isn't really the right language so I want to be more precise because this is very much an automatic unconscious thing and I know oftentimes were surprised some of us when when we figure out what Center were based in because we may not feel completely at home in that Center but but five sixes and sevens are based in the head center and not only that but they're also all connected in some way to the core ego emotion of fear so we can see each of these personality types as in some ways a a survival strategy related to coping with fear now in once in personality this fear the basis and fear of the shape of the personality is not always conscious so it's really important to remember this a lot of quote-unquote fear types don't walk around feeling fearful some do but some don't in fact sometimes we hear from types all three types that they didn't really think of themselves as fearful per se before they learn the any ground so five six and seven s all respond to this fear this childhood fear in a different way six is get vigilant and watchful sort of look searching the horizon for signs of danger seven s often don't experience an active sense of being afraid but there's an unconscious move toward Pleasant emotions positive experiences positive things to think about stimulating interesting ideas as a way of unconsciously moving away from more unpleasant emotions some of which might be discomfort or even fear and anxiety but again oftentimes that's very unconscious with fives fives ten to as one of my five friends put it I get really good at avoiding situations in which they would feel fearful so they're very good at kind of proactively arranging their life in a way that they might be more protected feel more safe and not get into territory that feels threatening but again that's that often operates unconsciously it said that sixes have fears of being sevens have fear of suffering and fives have fear of feeling so fives as part of their strategy coping strategy to get along in the world and oftentimes fives had an early experience of either being neglected or intruded upon so much so that they needed to withdraw into themselves and kind of protect their inner territory and protect their inner resources which can be thought of as energy times space things like this and so often fives describe either not having enough of their needs met not having enough love care support or being kind of intruded upon and people kind of invading their their personal space to the point where they needed to withdraw so with fives the strategy is a bit like withdrawing into the mental and taking refuge in knowledge and knowing and figuring out things mentally creating boundaries and fives automatically unconsciously tend to detach from emotion and move into a more mental space oftentimes they don't recognize that this is happening but emotions can be threatening because becoming emotionally involved with other people or having to deal with other people's emotions can feel to them as if it's draining their energy and fives have a certain sense of scarcity about inner resources and personality almost as if I only have so much and so there is a fear of depletion a fear of being depleted by other people's needs by other the demands that the outside world places on them and so for this reason they can tend to need a lot of private space alone time boundaries and a certain level of safety so that they can be assured that they won't be depleted one way that one person said it to me one time was that it was almost as if when he woke up in the morning he there he was aware of having a gas tank full of energy and throughout the day he was aware of his enter his tank kind of like the the level of the tank kind of going down and certain experiences would take more energy from him and it would go down farther faster and so there is this sort of nee sense of wanting to protect my internal resources or my energy and sometimes fives get there there are some misconceptions out there about fives as if they don't have feelings or they aren't capable of being emotional because they can seem to be more mental and not very emotionally don't my cousin who's a four who knows the anagram really well said fives are unruffle able you'll often not see them get upset in front of other people and fives will say that they definitely are connected to their emotions however they tend they feel more comfortable feeling their emotions when they're by themselves so what can be very challenging is having an emotion and being in the emotion with the person they're having it about having it about and sharing it with them in the moment that can be very challenging but it's not to say that they don't go away and find a private space and get connected and feel their emotions one example of this is my cousin's a five and she said she she was an art history major and in college she would go and see these amazing lectures and they would show all this art and she would think it was fascinating but then right after class she would want to go home go into her bedroom close the door lay on her bed and feel all the emotions that she felt in relation to the art so there is this sense of it's safer to feel to be really connected to my heart when I'm by myself now some vibes may intellectualize and they may think they're having feelings when they're just thinking about feelings so that can be important to notice if you're a five to be aware and self observing like I'm actually in the emotion or am I thinking about having it and maybe making the mistake of thinking I'm actually having the emotion but again that's part of the inner work of the five now another thing to know about fives is that because they can seem quiet or or not as emotional we can project onto them sometimes people see fives as being aloof or even arrogant but this is often a defense because sometimes fives feel a bit of social awkwardness and they take refuge in they they tend to feel more comfortable with information and data and knowledge and so sometimes they can seem aloof and then of course we be or insensitive because we're not seeing them express emotions or sometimes they don't feel comfortable sharing a lot of personal detail about themselves especially early on they can be one of the more introverted types but it's really important to remember that fives are very sensitive and that's why they need this more personal space is because they're hypersensitive they it's it's as if I've heard it you know it's as if they're they don't have a lot of natural protection and so because of that they need more space and they need to protect themselves and that's actually wise to be able to to take the space that they need in order to feel okay in a relationship think that's I'll stop there for now to stop with that introduction and turn it over now to the experts the real experts in type five and so let's start with Terry if you don't mind and if you can just tell us a little bit about how you've recognized yourself as a five what how you see some of these five traits that I've discussed or even other ones how you see that showing up for you when I was 19 I went to s alone I'm taking some time off from school I spent a month there and um one of my friends that I made there she was talking about the Indy gram and so I went to the bookstore there and I got the book a book but I never read it um not much of it I knew there are nine types and and then about five years later I went to Spain to learn Spanish so I went to language school there and I was you know I made I made some you know some friends who were also there just traveling or studying and um there was one guy and he was pretty easy to get along with and you know he was polite he was pretty knowledgeable we could talk about different topics he was easy to get along with he's a little flat emotionally a little boring you know not a great guy to go to a party with but um we got along fine and then I I kind of didn't really want to hang out with him that much anymore and I don't know if I experienced this at the time or later but I I realized that he was he was kind of just like me and he even had the same name it was he was from France it was Teddy excuse my French accent in any case I I actually for other reasons I don't have time to go into all the details I decided to go to Barcelona for the rest of my trip and find a another school there um I don't know I I do that I have kind of a pattern just like leaving or starting over or taking time off so um and then about this is maybe 18 years later I did a again no studying of the intagram during any of these decades um I did a workshop with cloudy on Naranjo which is how I met B and we've done a couple more workshops together and I guess right before the workshop someone therapist at the time said oh maybe you're a four but she was open she was um she it told me she wasn't that familiar with the Enneagram anymore it had been about 40 years since she had worked at the cloud here so she said you know it's just a suggestion so at the workshop I sort of explored the the group of fours they No [Laughter] so that was that didn't last very long so learning about the different nine types I thought they were all really um you know interesting and I was really curious about each one when I got to when we got to five it was a really different experience I was really experiencing a lot of and again I'm still trying to figure out what my type is I really had an experience of like aversion or distaste or I didn't like any of the personality traits that it was all the whole character was very unattractive to me which often happens when we find her right type right um and by the it was about a nine day workshop and by the end I I finally I was you know I accepted it because it was it was pretty it was pretty obvious and and it was it was it was kind of like when I was in Spain 20 you know 18 years earlier it was kind of that it was kind of like that where you're sort of looking in the mirror and and it's kind of hard to to accept it except this was a lot more this was a lot more serious I guess I you know I couldn't just leave I couldn't just go on a train to Barcelona I am this was just so much bigger it was just it wasn't just and it wasn't just my my personality was like my whole life my whole family you know previous generations you know everything and it was it wasn't I and I might Michael earlier had used the phrase this is awesome you know in reference to kind of figuring out your tight that's not what it felt like for me it was very very difficult and what do you think was difficult about owning your type as fun I don't know I I don't know I it it's kind of difficult to put into words but um just I don't know just seeing how kind of big the whole thing was and I drew Claudio has quoted somebody I don't remember who the who who was quoting but it was the quote was that the truth kills us and so it was kind of like I was just starting to experience that and and that was almost five years ago exactly so it was kind of like that something like that facing the truth in a way yeah yeah um takes a lot of courage by the way I think to accept that kind of thing like you said even especially since you're saying it you said that you had kind of a sense of this guy that you met in Europe is not really he wasn't really someone you were attracted to yeah yeah so how do you see how do you see your five kind of showing up in your life right now how do you how do you relate to it now that you've had time to know it more I mean everything I mean I don't know where I don't want to be do you relate to being sort of more mental than emotional oh definitely I don't have I don't really experience feelings very often um and then even just being in my body that's I have less access to that then then being in my head but I always to answer your question I think the biggest struggle is is with relationships and and just social interactions this is kind of from a long time ago but I'll just mention it I'm one of my best friends is actually his birthday today that was just to remind myself to call him later but so he likes to tell the story and usually when he tells the story it's because he wants to make people laugh but he that this one's not not funny but so about almost 20 years ago I was visiting San Francisco's visiting him and another guy so we're in our mid-20s and we decided to go out to movies we went to the AMC Kabuki theater in Japan town and so we're wait there's kind of a long line looks like a Friday night or Saturday night and there are these two women in front of us who were attractive my friend he starts talking to them because you know it wasn't me he was he did it I was I'm too shy to try something like that and so we're kind of and the other guy was was kind of good at that too so we're starting to get to know these women in in line and then at some point for some reason I decided well I better go to the front just see what's going on and I knew they were gonna see a different movie from the one we were gonna see and so I when I went to the front I found out that their movie was sold out and so I come back and I I tell the two women that their movie sold out and I don't know what happened I don't know what exactly I did whether the some something about the way I said it or the expression on my face or something but apparently the way according to my friends version of the story they I mean it pretty much ended whatever was going on to her I put a damper on things yeah apparently apparently they thought I was taking pleasure in their misfortune or something like that which of course I was and I thought I was helping I thought well of course I have to tell them so that they can go to plan B which they probably don't even have so they need time to think about anyway so but they apparently they reacted to me like I was just like cruel and unusual or something like hmm and I don't know if I sort of had like a nervous smile or something I mean I'm sure I felt a little awkward because meeting women like that and in a you know that's not like fun or easy so I don't I don't know but the way my friend tells the story he he thinks it's very like illuminating or important just as a an exact just in terms of my personality yeah that makes sense yeah thank you that makes it that makes a lot of sense all right anything else before you we before we move on and we'll talk about instinct at some point you know I think we should move on yeah okay well we'll come back to you don't worry okay JC so how do you relate to one and how did you find yourself in it and how do you see it showing up in your life so I started learning about the any Grimm about ten years ago and I was in graduate school actually and went to a actually Dave Warner is here and I there was a workshop and a few of us went to the workshop and I went with a friend who's a - and I thought well I'm a - I wanna you know make sure everybody's taken care of and all of that and so about probably 10 minutes into the workshop I realized I was not a too but stayed there and and then I guess it was maybe six months later we had an event as part of our program where we brought in an anagram teacher and she very clearly one of those very famous people um Enneagram people said I was one and described me and said this is what you're doing and this is why you are a 1 and I thought no that's not me and I got very defensive and so anyway that was an experience there where I guess the what that was what maybe was how I was being identified as a 1 is I wanted to make sure that every I was actually setting up the workshop and so I wanted to make sure that all the information was available to everybody I I was treating everybody like I would want to be treated and so what that meant to me is that the facilitator would walk in and all of the equipment would be set up correctly I would be seen as very competent because everything went smoothly everybody had the comforts that they needed to be fully present at the at the workshop so to me that was may-maybe outwardly it looked like one time it was all about me and being me being seen as competent and around that time I started definitely identifying with a 5 and as soon as I started reading about that and and identifying with it it's I was at home it felt very comfortable and I liked it I liked it for whatever reasons and I don't know if that was just that I always felt a little outside like the outsider or I never quite understood what people's reactions were to me because I have been identified as very loof and disconnected or unemotional I hear that from some phibes who say that they were actually relieved when they met the Enneagram and typed themselves as a five because like I remember one woman on a panel said that her husband was always saying what's wrong with you that you don't want to go to parties and you don't want to socialize there's something wrong with you and so what she said when she found out she was a five she uh there's nothing wrong with me I'm just a five and it's almost like it kind of makes sense yeah in a certain way and it's sort of like a relief like oh okay I may not want to interact in the same way others do but that's okay yeah and then I think how I would have just how I kind of described myself because I've done some other panels earlier on in my learning about the Enneagram and the way I would describe how I operated was that I have these compartments and I have information in all of the compartments and if there's something that was very emotional for me traumatic I figure it out I you know deal with it on my own and it's in that compartment and then when I'm in a group I can pull it out that all the emotion is taken out of it and the feelings are taken out of it so I can talk about it all day long and to me it felt like I'm I'm talking about my feelings but it was the idea behind it not necessarily the emotion and I think the the work that I've been doing the past couple years I can say that those compartments are kind of exploding and they're there intermingling which feels a little scary but but very rewarding you know I've I feel like I I feel I can feel I feel things in the moment I can connect with people in that feeling without having to retreat sometimes it's very uncomfortable but I think I probably found very safe spaces to be able to do that and so it's it's almost like a practice where I've found that I can do that more even outside of those comfort zones and have more meaningful conversations with people in the moment versus having to retreat and figure it out and then and then come back to it because often times when that happens I'll retreat another thing oh this is all of these great thoughts but at the moments passed and so am i we'd go back and talk with that person they'd be looking at me like what you know what are you talking about so it's much it's much better to be able to express my feelings in the moment talk about them at the time that that they're actually happening and so it sounds like that's the you've been able to do that to grow but it sounds like what's what's most comfortable is to be able to go away and kind of process on your own my my teaching partner is a five and what he often says is if you have something important to say to a five say it and then go away leave but I want to ask you one more thing and that is you mentioned these compartments and it is said that fives compartmentalize and and again it sounds like I liked that you talked about how you're doing the work of getting rid of the compartments but can you tell us what the purpose of the compartments are or the compartmentalization that you do how does that work and and why why is that something that feels good you know what for me when I say that and I think it's kind of lost its clarity because it it was quite a while ago but that it was very vivid that these compartments it was almost like going to the library and the the Dewey Decimal System and so you'd have the the cart the you know the little compartments and the cards to find the books and so I think that the compartmentalizing part of that is is it's a pole that are compartmentalized or experiences yeah maybe it's the so it's it's having the it's it's everything that is in an experience but dissecting it so that I can separate the feelings out so that I'm then I can kind of take it out and look at it at a later time and look at all at all angles and really an Allah I guess it's kind of an analytical tool for me hmm and it sounds like there's something that feels good about sort of separating things off from each other yes and and I would say even just you suggesting the people I have compartments of people so there are people that I go do certain things with that I can be in that group at that moment and there's a lot I don't know if this is this is just very true for me that there's some so much gray area and so I I feel like and sometimes that I don't know if that's kind of 9 like where you're kind of can adapt to the the environment that you're in or maybe me that that's not true I'm kind of getting lost there I would say just I mean just kind of coming back to that question is probably mostly it's deceptive to extract the feeling to be able to put that over in one place so then I can just deal with what's going on in front of me and that I can come back to the feeling later it's almost like file folders and feelings get separated out but things get you can kind of analyze that as its own thing but it doesn't necessarily get mixed up with other people I have a five friend who said that it's her biggest nightmare to have a party where all the friends from different areas of her life would be there she kind of wants to relate to each of her friends and there are different categories and they're different contexts but bringing them together would sound terrible messy yeah yeah yeah confused or they might share information about you behind that they they're not that and not stay in their compartments and I think also there's something about the compartments where I I like to go back and visit an experience and so it's there and then I you know it's almost like I have a new lens oh sorry it's like I have a new lens every time I kind of go back and say oh now what is what does this look like for me now today right versus how how it was when it when it actually happened mmm okay it's a pretty intricate filing system intricate filing system yes mental files I guess yeah that's great all right thank you okay so Richard can you tell us a little bit about how you have found yourself as a five and what these five traits look like in your life um sure so I started studying in the early 90s and I originally tied myself as a seven because back then in the 90s you probably remember they didn't really expand the five vision very much who is it's pretty withdrawn and pretty quiet and seven seemed to fit but it also kind of was painful for me to kind of stay in the seven and let's go party and I wasn't really into let's go party so it was it was a challenge and when I finally found the five after someone pointed out that I loved doing ten day silent retreats and I loved doing things by myself and they said maybe five hissing more what you are and I thought that's it that's that makes so much more sense but I didn't feel like again the textbook five and so that was a little a little of a challenge but it was a relief and so I studied I loved the categorization we were talking about how you can actually say oh this is what's going on with someone else because with a five it's like are they insane what are they doing this for what reacting in this feelings are these you know hostilities or you know whatever that kind of clenches us it always struck me as why is half for at least half the world insane and I'm picking up on all these vibration so suddenly is I can just kind of categorize even if I'm not right about what their type is I can categorize and say maybe they're acting like an eighth man makes a lot of sense and and I have three kids and suddenly it was like oh maybe they're just behaving like a two would behave here and I didn't type anybody I just use that to relax to have this sense of other people are coming from whole different places there for emotional and I could just kind of hope and say oh I'll let them do their type and so for me it was a category categorizing but it wasn't using it as an excuse and it wasn't kind of putting them in a box it was just letting me relax so right for a five in some ways knowing you're any graham type and knowing others have that different perspective is a really really helpful thing one thing Jerry mentioned was the fact about being boring that one yet when you said that because I've had people tell me that too you know kind of boring just amazing to me did it wasn't hard for you to understand that for me it was like you don't have any idea what's going on still wires going you look at the books on the shelf but I just kind of Wow and then I see the screen with the curtain I look at the tape on there you know I'm just seeing all kinds of things and there's stuff going on in here you have no idea but what's coming out or what's coming across is yeah this guy is kind of boring right so there may be a lot going this is really important for us to know a lot going on in here right but that doesn't mean you bring it out here right right and I don't feel barred ever well anybody I think if somebody I go wow there's so many signals and things picking up and what they're wearing and what what they're saying and it's like wow I could never be barred right which is kind of a nice thing because I'd ask people could you describe what barring is well that's just fear you know you're just afraid because you're just throwing out so many signs like signals I don't and and you're bored here's the way my five business partner says it so he does this demonstration when we even just talk about how head types work you know because some of the rest of us weren't head types may not understand what it's like to be inside of a head type and he does this demonstration where he finds another head type in the room and that he says let's have just a two-minute conversation and then he asks the person in that two-minute conversation tell us all the thoughts that you had and that person will go like 2950 thoughts that they had just in this two-minute conversation and he'll say like when B says something to me I'm thinking about this and I'm thinking about that and I'm remembering this and I'm thinking about this and I'm thinking about that and I'm thinking oh I need to do that tomorrow and and and I'm thinking like he never listens to me but really it's just that he has so many mental associations that are going on all the time and I think four fives it's really it's like that especially because they're interested in so many different things on an intellectual level yeah and it's problematic and it can kind of take you on two versions where you probably don't need to be on those different moons with that I got into kind of more of the meditative type stuff and that's helpful because I'll be kind of deeply quieting and then some thoughts will kind of rise and it'll take me on these little journeys and you know they're wonderful journeys but to know that I'm well right now I'm kind of into the more meditative let's bring it back maybe I can think about that later and and I think that's where the withdrawal happens for five is that you don't have enough energy to process everything without kind of holding some energy for withdrawing and kind of chugging through mentally what you need to so an idea to check through to kind of get to the research to get to the bottom of something to the source it takes energy and so the withdrawals not for me running from feeling it's not running from fear it's like I need the energy to find out and know this and that's where this inner drive to know is all about I need to know I had a spiritual teacher say Richard maybe you don't need to know know your now you identify as a social five asset right I'm a social so social Phibes also that would also explain why you thought you were a seven at first because social Phibes look a bit like sevens know and we'll find out later today what that looks like and and it also sounds and social Phibes are also very focused on knowing things and knowing a lot of different things and it can be very hard for them to either admit they don't know something or like you're like you just said think that not knowing is an option yeah and what a place it's land of not knowing is is truly a remarkable place where you can kind of suddenly I don't have to know and I can recognize that there's an it's like an internal knowing is happening all the time without my necessarily contributing to it and that is a wonderful place to be because suddenly I don't have to take responsibility to know yeah makes a lot of sense yeah okay thank you yeah he doesn't mean it so you can hold on to that you know so Michael what does this look like for you this five territory what's so fascinating this first time I've ever been on a panel with other frauds and both the similarities and the differences are acute for me I have a little cartoon over the in in our bathroom that little a figure that says I like the time just before dawn when there's nobody there to tell me who I am so I can experience who I actually am something like that and so I've mentioned that I looked at Enneagram for probably at least 30 years and it didn't make any sense to me and then all of a sudden that opened up and I can't even put a date on it but I know it wasn't with a person it was with a book I love the quote from Claudio neuron how about 5's would rather read than live and and you know I I think both my parents were fives my father came from a line of Russian Jewish rabbinic scholars and he he became a secular professor but he was still essentially a rabbi and my mother came from Irish product I rescheduled or you know they they built things and they and and her father was a surgeon and she's a psychologist so I grew up with this combination of my mother's heart and my father's mind and my mother's doing stuff so it says that fives often have difficulty making the transition from thought to action but that's not true for me um and I attribute that to my experience of the power of going to eight internally that it said that if you're somewhat more evolved five that you pick up the high side of eight so I don't pick up the anger of eight but I have always started things you know started a preschool started full circle which was a school for troubled kids started commonweal started and within commonweal I keep starting things and then find great people to run them so it's a form of social entrepreneurship that but that's the doing side but then I need to retreat into quiet and silence and be with my wife Cheryl and you know and and be at home or be in my study and and when people contact me and they say can we get together my response because they usually contacting me by email my response will be could we do this by email and if we can't do it by email could we do it by phone and if we can't do it by phone then I'll get together you know but and partly it's an efficiency thing because you know there are a lot of things to do and or if they ask for a meeting I'll say could you tell me what it's about you know so I so and when I want I want to say one thing before you move on another example so my business partner sometimes he says the same thing he likes text the most and then like phone and then video conference and then in person and sometimes what he'll do when we're working together is we'll be together and he'll say I really want to go be in my room by myself now is that okay and I say okay so he leaves and as soon as he's gone he starts texting me and so it's so funny that now he's texting me for an hour and we were just together so it's so interesting that there is something that feels so good to him to being in his room by himself even though he's still interested in interacting he just would rather do it over texting one time he did a very funny thing and that we were having lunch during a retreat and he went to the bathroom and he started texting me back like really but that's yes so I just wanted to highlight that that comment yes what else so when Terry said that he he didn't like being a 5 but he couldn't leave right and then Tracy said she liked it and so I'm I'm at the lichen school and they're somewhere in your book or somewhere I read that fives actually have more difficulty than other types getting out of the type because many of them think what's not to like about yes yeah and I have that experience it's like this is just fine with me yes yes what's the problem here in relationship to groups um said if that they're going to 7-piece so if I have a purpose in a group I am just fine so example at commonweal you know being here or this group I am totally fine because I have a purpose being here I'm enjoying it I I will need to be quiet afterwards but I'm gonna but if if somebody suggests that we go to a cocktail party or a gathering where I don't have a purpose I really don't want to go you know so and then if I'm in a gathering where I have a purpose if I'm participating in some way and leadership I'm totally fine I'm also totally fine if I'm not participating in leadership but if I'm not participating in leadership I want to be at the edge I don't want to be in the middle of the gathering I to be at the very edge of the gathering so it's either participate at the center be at the edge I really don't care which one it is but I don't want to be in the middle of it and why is that why do you think that's because I'm not comfortable in groups of people unless I have a purpose you know but once I have a purpose I'm fierce about it and then being on the edge it's like you can be there but not completely in the middle of things exactly and I can multitask you know so I can like be at the edge of a conference and be checking my email or checking the news or you know doing something else partly in your own world or in your own space and my own space and you know when I came out left teaching at Yale on sabbatical and came out here I was going you know I was on a tenure-track at Yale I was going from the center to the very edge of the country I mean in 1972 when I came out Bolinas was isolated there were no faxes there were no email there you know none of that stuff and it was a super isolated place but in starting commonweal as a place to heal ourselves and heal the earth there was this action orientation so on the one hand I was isolated at the very edge of the country on the other hand and healing ourselves in healing the earth if somebody wants to describe commonweal and great description as a think and do tank for social entrepreneurs so there's the thought dimension but then there's the do dimension and so it's praxis and so it's a process of learning not only from books but from the experience of doing and to me that second kind of learning of praxis you know I'll start a project when I start a project diet month my main thing is I don't want anybody to be able to stop me that's the core and so in order to do it in a way that nobody can stop me it has to be done for no money because that's and they could stop down and so I start things with no money and then I learned from them it's like I have the idea but it will teach me what it wants to be and if my first ideas about it don't turn out that's fine it will show me what it wants to be in this process of practice and so it sounds like you're there's a lot of learning in your doing in your version of doing right so for other types who might also do not that may not be about learning as much as it is for you it sounds like and the superpower of detachment is Inasa valuable to me because you know I've spent 33 years co-leading 205 retreats for people with cancer and a lot of time working on intractable problems of you know civilizational collapse or the juvenile justice or whatever it is so there's a way in which I can be in the middle of these issues but not carrying them you know Angelus Aryan has these four rules for spiritual life show up pay attention tell the truth and don't be attached to the outcome yeah Oren's fosberg when he'd been working with me for a few years our executive director he looked up he said I noticed you don't stress much and it's true I just do it okay 95% of what happens at common we'll just rolls off my back it's like we're doing it we're doing our best but if it doesn't work so be it let's learn from let's embrace error let's learn from so that we don't make the same mistakes again right and it is all about the learning and you know you also relate to social five is that right I'm not sure we've talked about this both social and one-to-one Freight and I've wondered about which one I truly am because the one-to-one I am at my best 1/2 1/4 or you know in front of a group but not in the middle of a group so but I'm really at my best I think one-to-one and so in the cancer help program I do one-to-one sessions with fear but my experience is that externally I'm a social father but that the generative power comes from the power of love and that my wife Charlotte I've been married for 35 years and I need to go home and be with Cheryl and quiet and and I also my mother and father truly loved all three of us and I'm not freak of nature that had a happy loving job and so my experiences that my life is based in love and that that's the generative power but it expresses as the social five so to this day I don't and I like the fact that you don't see it as a stack when you spoke of it as sequencing that made a whole lot of sense to me because it's it's a sequencing thing from yeah so I will highlight that that what you talk about being a leader and also the getting really immersed in social cause and sort of doing and sounds very much that might be the social 5-piece social Phibes can get very active and very out there you know and that's why sometimes people will say are you sure like my my teaching partner is a social five and he's a very good leader he's very good on stage and people say are you sure they think he's a three and not a five but he's definitely a five and so I think that also the passion it meant to sort of doing something in the world but also seeing the doing is learning always learning it so everything is always involves learning that's those those are just things I'll highlight it's social fine it's wrong okay okay do you guys want to talk a little bit about your subtype because I know we talked a little bit about social five and I do also think that there's a like you're saying it relate to one-to-one five but which what subtypes do you relate to and can you say a little bit about how that is for you yeah I am a South pres and then I think socially repressed and I have a different experience with the detachment part I and I don't know if this has anything to do with this that's okay yeah that's just that the idea when you are describing that I my whole thing is about competence and so if if something that I'm driving or that I've initiated is not successful it's really difficult for me and I tend it's all personal and and I take the full responsibility in the full burden of the failure and so so that's maybe that's the difference between it being more self-preservation there may be something that sort of self-sustaining about needing to appear competent yes yeah it kind of reminds me a little bit of a self press five friend of mine who a lot of people remark at how social she is and how outgoing and she says what she's learned to do is she watches other people and how they're social and it's almost a little bit like camouflage like wearing the right thing acting in the right ways it's all at she the self preservation five it's also people won't question her boundaries it's also she looks right and she's competent and she's both socially and in work life so that people don't see behind the mask and they don't tour to penetrate her barrier in a way and and which was really interesting to me because she and she because socially she realize she has a limit you know like I need to know the time limit she's a math teacher and people will say like wow you're a high school math teacher that's an interesting occupation for a five she goes well it's great because I really enjoy my students and teaching and learning but then at a certain time the bell rings every day and everyone leaves and that's the part she likes the best about it clear boundaries and then it's it's over our boundary is important to you yes actually I have a friend staying with me for the past week and she was considering coming today because she's got a friend in Bolinas but kind of an odd timing but yesterday morning I said to her you can go but I'm going exactly where I'm headed and I'm not taking any detours so if your friend is along the way I'll let you off but otherwise you know you're not going but I just felt like I'm you know that's sort of what I do and we're yeah yeah and even the leap you know leaving at the end I've done the social part of these kind of things as is sometimes difficult I like to go off kind of on my own and interesting about the social events I love to organize and I can put on an incredible event I plan our family reunions and all of those kind of things work-related things I'm definitely a planner I have really good ideas but I'm planning it and then I am not interested in participating so there's all these great activities going on my family reunions everybody's there I make sure he's having a good time and then I'm kind of on the sidelines because my work is done right and it all so and probably the better you plan it exactly yeah more you can stay exactly yeah yeah yeah beautiful thank you Terry which which of these do you relate to subtype wise and what does that look like for you and the self-preservation yeah and our boundary is important for you or how do you negotiate boundaries with people is it is it hard or easy to share personal information about yourself I don't know I am yeah I guess I would say boundaries are important in terms of being pretty protective of my space or my energy and all of that but I have a lot of difficulty with boundaries um like maybe experience feeling like you know someone has violated my boundary even though they really haven't and then I do this in that and then maybe me doing that to someone else um so it's that's a hard core that's kind of a bigger question like something might happen at work where someone is supposed to help me and then they they make a mistake and and I get really irritated as if someone has like really gotten into my space and it's like interfering with what I'm what I'm trying to do which is very important right now even though it was probably kind of harmless and I could have just brushed it off and kept going but it just felt like almost physical mmm the the intrusion or the interference right I've heard five say especially my self-preservation v friend that she needs to have control over her domain is it like that for you at work very much yeah and you work in a hospital is that right yeah mm-hmm do you have an example about how that how things might play out at work in terms of being a five I yeah I mean like sometimes trying to think of one well it could be something but this is what cut a minor but sometimes there's a guy who sits next to me not in the hospital but in clinic a couple cubicles down and he's just he speaks in a really loud voice for much louder than you need for people to hear you and he has a deep voice and then if he has a student with him or a resident that day then he's gonna be talking a lot more because he's like teaching and it's just way too loud and so I have earplugs for that and I've only and I pulled them out only the only time I ever used them is because of him so I'm pretty sensitive to sound light temperature just anything that affects my energy or my body my anything um I guess that more another example would be if I'm in the operating room and somebody I don't know like if someone is not it causes a distraction or makes kind of a mistake and I don't know I get angry um and I I I do you express the anger or just feel it inside no I you I do end up expressing it and I'm working it you know this is a problem you know people don't like it when you're not nice at work um people want or it to be like like fun and you know talking about the weather like the kids are like oh like how's the smoke you know and all that around Thanksgiving or just whatever and I'm pretty focused at work and so yeah I get impatient and I can be pretty harsh in trying to correct the situation which I'm working on because it's not very effective usually but yeah it could be just people are I don't know somehow it I it's it's such a violation of I don't know I take it so personally or something and like it's interfering with what I have what I need to do right now or something like that mm-hmm yeah my friend who's a self chris 5 says she doesn't like surprises I don't like them at all I even another I don't know if these examples are dumb or anything but so last week I was gonna be in the operating room this faux arktech we have a really good relationship with she texted me the day before and she said you're gonna be in room 1 not to 99 percent of the room up 99% of the time I'm in room 2 which is kind of small room ones really small which bothers makes them a very sensitive to like space you know my apartments always have high ceilings and I just want so anyways and then the next day and it actually it sounds I actually really appreciated that I was able to find that out the day before not 10 minutes before not at 7:15 in the morning because otherwise that would have affected like my whole like visualization the day before of what I was gonna do because it was gonna be in different rooms so that's not what I would want to do and it just I'm telling you this is a minor thing it's like a 10% it's not that bad to be in room 1 but I was glad that I found out right on the afternoon not at 7:10 in the morning yeah that would have kind of set me off a little it sounds makes sense because it sounds too like you're mentally preparing yourself right mentally physically not you know how much sleep mm-hmm caffeine not too much food everything you know if I'm gonna be standing for four hours maybe some compression socks yeah like yeah like just complete attention to details yes and what I like in here is hearing the sensitivity of the five like there's a sensitivity I think both five and self-preservation to a lot of these little things like you're saying it looks sounds minor but it sounds like you're thinking through these things very carefully and they matter yeah extremely important yeah and then just regarding the other subtypes I really don't relate to social five or sexual five much at all I just I think it's pretty clear that those other two are pretty far away from from what I am you know sometimes people tell me like oh you're a really good example of a self preservation five you know that's getting a little old those people always want to tell you you are it's true I mean I really don't I don't relate to the other two very much at all I've not I don't I I don't I'm really not intellectual I would say I don't even though I went to school forever so I don't relate to the intellect the to that aspect of the social five and then I don't really relate to the sexual five that much although I would have liked to have been I admire that subtype more just because they're more emotional and creative mm-hmm okay thanks so now I'd like to hear from some of you the question we've been asking the sort of second round question which is what have you done to grow in light of the fact that you are five and that you've been observing these type five patterns in you and and maybe - anything you want to say about relationship because I know Terry mentioned that but we haven't gone too much into that what relationships are like for you especially if that's a growth area or a territory for working on it like it always is for all of us do you want to start Richard will you start using the new question go through a sub-type analysis as we work example was like a subtype thank you for slowing us down how do you want that yes yes yes yes sorry to switch it up on you again but we would like to hear something more because I know you mentioned you were a social subtype but I'd like to hear more about that from you it's great so I see the subtypes and it may be a way you see them as I've kind of numerous dumb ones 2 & 3 the one is the self pres and for most of the five cell presence I know they're able to go off by themselves like go on a hike or camping or something by themselves which I really wouldn't do the two would be the one-to-one or the sexual and they can sit face-to-face with someone and just carry on this dialogue and I've seen that at work where two people just go back and forth and they'll go for a half hour or something and it's like what I'd be dodging and how do I get out of here one is the comfort level between two people I love to see but I just am NOT that comfortable doing it and so I've numbered three is the social which is more than two it's just a group sort of thing and it's not that I strive to be in a group or go to cocktail parties or anything it's like I understand and I'm comfortable in the group so I can say this is their role this is what they're saying I recognize easily who's doing what where as the power wears dynamics and it's a natural thing I don't really strive to get into a group but I do understand and feel comfortable in a group so I think that's how I see the three differences right right and and again my approach is somewhat based on what you said and also based on sort of what you talked about before about the character of the social five being a little bit more oriented toward knowledge and learning and and then connecting with others through knowledge so so I think we've heard you say something about that before like how important it is to be learning and knowing things and be the one who knows more comfortable being an expert you know and being up in front of a group talking about that than some of the other fives yeah and problem-solving my previous job in environmental engineering I was called into to lead a group on water protection so it was water type environmental stuff and I initiated a consensus group because I really felt more comfortable thinking we could do this by consensus we could develop a city ordinance bringing in business people bringing in lawyers for the environment bringing in regulators bringing in people that are really diverse and never agree on anything and I said we're all going to have the ability to say no so when when we came up with a provision for the ordinance of someone in the group said no we just threw it out and everybody like that's never gonna work but I was so comfortable because nobody was in a power structure we were all equal and we were trying for one goal which we all saw and it just worked out beautifully we came up with a wonderful ordinance we got a governor's award from the state for it and it was like suddenly I see the power of everybody having an equal say where I'm as a five I'm just not interested in arguing with you I see my point of view you see yours let's just agree that we have them and if we can come up with stuff we all agree with it work great so I think that's a social ability not a social subtype we'd have mm-hmm right right yeah okay thank you so anyone want to speak to what what you've done to grow knowing knowing you're a five how has that helped you understand yourself more and and and develop yourself well I work on growing all the time just because that's sort of Who I am but I don't I've had very little success moving toward seven if I don't have a purpose I can't wrap my mind around why I would want to do that there's so much work that I want to do and I'm so Purpose Driven that gatherings where I don't have a purpose feel like a waste of my time I really relate to what you just said about you know everybody has a point of view wanted one of my experiences about my own point of view is that I don't privilege it I don't see my point of view as in any way better than anybody else's point of view and so and also when somebody else has a better idea of how to do something I'm just fine with it you know just whatever moves the effort forward but I just want to say this isn't about growth I just relate so deeply to aspects of what each of you are saying about this and it's so amazing you know perhaps you're the most different from me in many ways but I deeply connect with how you describe yourself and you know and your your seriousness and intensity of purpose about your work and wanting the conditions under which that works for you and and not liking surprises I intensely dislike surprises wanting to be told a day before or so even though we're perhaps among the most different 5s on the panel I deeply relate to the the way you describe yourself yeah yeah and I'm glad you've highlighted that because you can see some of the underlying things that are true for all fives even if the subtypes create some differences in presentation oh yeah so anyone want to talk about what you've done to grow or how knowing knowing that you're a five is helped and it is true that I have heard from fives in the past that it's been a little bit hard to really kind of take a growth path because it's sort of like well this coping strategy is really working for me you know it keeps me safe and I don't necessarily want to be around people and what's wrong with that and and and things like that and at the same time I think we've heard some things like Tracy was talking about sort of mix mixing up the compartments and how that's scary so even maybe how you know I know it sounds like especially in terms of wanting a lot of private space maybe it would be good for us to hear something about relationship and if if relationship has been sort of a growth path or not but how how you navigate relationships given there is this part of you that wants to that you know likes and appreciates a lot of time alone so I think I'm gonna incorporate the growth thing here okay now that you've had a few minutes to think about it well that's what so that's how I'm incorporated I'm not going to think about relationships I'm just going to because that's impossible preparation is key okay I'm not going to think about it and come up with I'm just gonna see if anything arises perfect I made me just passing this microphone to you buddy that's the beauty of it thank you I guess my last significant relationship in relations to the anagram she thought she was nine and then she thought she was a four and we eventually broke up [Music] for various reasons I won't get into that but I realized after I went to your subtype in Portland the subtype workshop he did mm-hmm I saw the self press 3 which was a foreign thing self press 3 kind of quiet withdrawn 3 and that's what she was and I was so excited I called her we'd been broken up for quite a while I called her and I found yourself type and talking and she was just cold like we're done you know don't even know why he being such a turd about this but she she I never did tell her she wasn't even interested and I was like but I really do think had I known she was a self press 3 our relationship would have been different hmm because I think they don't really recognize certain affections and consequently I didn't recognize that she was had these deep feelings for me and and that's a problem I think maybe four fives is seeing when that connection is deep or at least for a social I don't again have that one-to-one sense so it's always kind of like are we close do you love me and unless it's kind of very clearly stated it's not really always available to me those those body interaction their body sort of signs and signals that just is beyond me in time so I do need to have an intellectual basis and again if I had known or subtype and type I think it would have made a lot of difference because there have been more understanding it sounds like that's part of what helps you at the Enneagram is having a little more of an understanding mentally of where they're coming from helps you orient yeah now suddenly it falls into place oh yeah okay thank you anything Tracey you want to say about relationships or growth either yeah my husband's an eight-cell pres 8 and before I knew that I felt that he was very controlling and not very not very sensitive and so once I started learning about the India gram and about his type my our whole relationship changed it was just and it he he calls this my numbers thanks a number so you mentioned something about the numbers anyway so he doesn't really know much about it or but as I changed the way I received him he changed the way our interaction just changed and we do still have this push-pull thing where I think my fear of him leaving or not accepting me or something I pushed him away just to protect myself and then he's got kind of this push thing as well but we've been able to kind of create a dancer around that a little bit and so I know more now that he's acting out of protection wanting to protect me versus wanting to control me mm-hmm at least that's the way I'm yeah I bet and then the other thing I want to say about well and and that I think goes along with other relationships to my my push people away pull him back in push him away to test them pull them back in I really recognized that about myself and have actually had some really good conversations with people sharing that with them saying are friends of mine that this is what I'm doing I know I recognize that I'm doing this when you feel me pulling away don't let me go hang hang on to me in some way and it's really made a difference for me and it it you know the more I feel that the more safe I feel in in letting that go and not having to test so often yeah yeah and then just one other quick thing that I wanted to say about I guess it kind of goes in that growth in the growth category of I'm very much an introvert and I don't know if that's typical a typical five trait and when I say that's a and I'm and I every bone in my body as an introvert and when I say that to people or we have a conversation about that they're surprised that I feel so strongly about that because they feel that I'm extroverted and I and I think that it's sort of what you were saying I'm exhibiting other people's behavior that I see you know they're at a party and they're having fun and they're you know dancing around or something and I'm like oh I guess I can try that just to kind of be part of the part of the group so sometimes I appear to be very extroverted but it's very uncomfortable mm-hmm right right yeah as my friend said it's a little bit of a camouflage so they someone doesn't pull her out or push her and it's interesting I do find that sometimes the self-preservation v feels like the warmest v and I attribute that to the sense that this paradox that sometimes when we have more confidence in our boundaries we can actually be more open to a certain degree at a certain level you know and so I do find that sometimes self-preservation fives get experienced by others as warm or sensitive in a certain way yeah yeah and just one I'm sorry one more thing that the energy holding onto my energy and being protective of how much energy I expend it's I it's a calculation for me and my head and but I have found that and I think the last workshop that I was at I was kind of really challenged about that it's trying to go beyond what my when my tank is empty hmm keep going and as I it's almost like practicing those things then I feel I feel more confident that oh this is really just in my head I do have I could go another you know on this empty tank cuz I got so much more to say you do that's a really important point sometimes it's fives need to learn on the growth path that that that sense of scarcity is really an illusion that there is more energy and more nourishment for you and yet the the mental model of scarcity sometimes is limiting in itself and so like you're saying breaking out of that experience to recognize oh that's just it's just an idea I have it's not necessarily real yeah okay Terry anything you want to say about how how knowing you're five has helped you understand yourself or grow sure so yeah a lot of my attention or energy is about relationships and intimacy and all of that I'm not one of those sort of satisfied fives who yeah I spend a lot of time alone but I don't I don't really enjoy spending a lot of time alone or the you know the lack of intimacy it's I'm not really okay with with just being that way so you're a little more in touch with the pain of that connected to that pattern would you say that or the discomfort more discomfort I mean pain sounds a little bit more almost more like a feeling which that might be isn't it just to be honest yeah yeah yeah yeah I would really like to experience feelings more but just to be truthful I don't know if I'd call it pain discomfort or anxiety yes um and so pretty early on during these past five years with the workshops with that I've attended with Beatrice as well as some of her workshops and some of the other things I was doing with therapy the I got sort of this feedback a couple of three or four different times that was sort of consistent which was that that there was something about the way I can just being timid and inhibited like really the or the way I am in my body that that was very important and something that maybe that was a way I could I could work on myself and so I was doing you know I started with yoga which was good for like just relaxation or breathing or breathing with movement things like that and so that the feedback I got a couple of different from a few different people was that maybe something involving sort of like aggression or healthy aggression or something more relational would be would be good or I could I should try it and so it's that made sense and then I had a session with somebody who you know is I guess you'd call her a psychic and she so she didn't know a lot about my biography but she was kind of reading into me and just trying to tell me what she thought I needed to know and she really we ended up talking about this whole thing about just the the way I'm very inhibited in my body and you know in the context of with other people where I almost literally kind of with withdrawal like literally move back it even just even if it's subtle when I'm when somebody comes towards me or something like that and and that maybe it went back to a very long time ago where I was like it was kind of maybe roughed up by other boys and I and or just didn't do very well with with contact or fighting or roughness and she thought well maybe you could start doing something where you're you kind of get out there and you experience the roughness of other men but and you just kind of keep practicing that and and just see what happens and so I started doing Aikido which I've been doing for two and a half years now and that's been it's been really hard I mean it's it's - I mean for me it's been extremely difficult because at this point after you know four and a half decades just to be so hardwired to be a certain way in your body and not just your body but just your nervous system your neuro regulation and it turns out that this is like the thing that is it with the patterns I have it is it's just I have to work through all of that mmm like I don't it's almost like I have like nothing going for me naturally to help me do this thing which is just considered difficult period right and it's been so I've learned a lot it's been very interesting yes - to see what's happened and you know the feedback I get from sensei you know throughout class it'll just be like a few words it is it's pretty interesting because what he says it's things that are happening to me all the time not just at the dojo but literally like every minute every moment just throughout the day every day so I'll just give you some examples of the feedback he'll it'll be something like don't don't collapse your body or you're too stiff or stand your ground don't flinch you need to find your Center you know you sew it and it's just beautiful it's literally like every single thing he's ever said has been something that I know I kind of already knew that I do this this happens to me in my body and my nervous system like all the time and so I don't know it's my progress isn't in it has been so slow that I don't I mean I'm willing I want to keep trying but it's it's definitely been um one way to kind of learn about myself I don't know the last is for a while now I've been kind of better out experiencing some sort of like resignation or kind of like giving up hmm with regards to a lot of the things I've been trying and um I mean it's all been good I don't regret any of the workshops I've done or any of the things I've tried but you know it's been it's been hard it's not easy and I think especially for us self presence sometimes it's harder to change there's like a there's something deep inside that's about conservation and saving or protecting ourselves and it can be hard to break out of some of the old patterns yeah yeah but um yeah going back to that session I had where I got this idea to do to try martial arts it wasn't it this is more of an intellectual thing but it was um it kind of gave me a different deeper understanding of the passion of a pers because initially it just I related to it okay yeah time energy you know things like that that was all really obvious that I was very protective of or not not generous with but when she started to talk more about this the way I was sort of timid it might been inhibited in my body it I guess the understanding I had was that it was really more about not giving myself like not just things that are more concrete like time or energy or money but yeah like actually my actual self holding yourself my actual body my whatever I have to give just literally just just kind of keeping it in yes and like physically kind of withdrawing it's a beautiful description of avarice I think which is the passion of type 5 so it's a holding back and a holding and it's not like greed like we normally think about it just for money it's it's energetically holding oneself back and holding energy and resources so I think that's a perfect place to stop and I want to open up to questions but before that I'll just take one minute just to talk about the movements between 8 & 7 because we've talked about those for most of the types so five is connected to 8 & 7 and as I've said before we believe that it's important to go against the arrow first it's sometimes what had to be given up in childhood or it's just a more secure place so 5 goes to 8 against the arrow which is often we heard a little bit about this especially from Michael it's a little bit about getting more into the body and I think this is exactly what Terry was just mentioning my teaching partner Ronnie Oh sometimes says you know us fives it's like we're just ahead and we that's like what's this body it's just a vehicle for keeping - for carrying around the head and so getting into eight can be getting into their body being more physical creating having healthy anger to create boundaries and to ground oneself so much of what you just said and that you're learning in this martial art is a perfect example of going to eight in a good way holding your ground being more in your strength and your power sharing exhibiting that in the world when appropriate and then moving to seven which is this sometimes called the stress move for us it's a real direction of spiritual growth but only where you should go after you've integrated the arrow against because it gives you more inner stability going to 745 tend to go very deeply into their intellectual interests sevens are a little bit more they they're more interested in more little faint more things but they go into them and not as deeply so getting interested in a wider range of things getting out into the world more with your ideas sharing them with others being more social and more engaged in sharing ideas with a lot of other people and tasting a lot of different things as a way of bringing yourself outside of yourself more being more expressive in the external world as sevens can be so now I'd like to open it up for questions for our fives yeah Terry I have a question for the spot where does the safe place where does your where do you restore your energy for self Ben Spies gosh there's all kinds of places there's all kinds of places to go hide can you give us some of them yeah or will you be a disclosing secret information so an example that my husband and I when we get home from work I've already described to him what it's like for me being at work all day and being engaged all day long and I just want to come home and decompress and so even if we enter the house at the same time we kind of go to our separate corners and we do you know I have a little ritual of you know washing my face and putting my comfy clothes on and he goes outside and walks around the yard and and so then you know 30 minutes later we can come together and we're we're great and can engage and so I think for me planning those kind of things out even arriving here today arriving early so I have time to kind of sit and think about you know how this is gonna go and so those kind of things I think reading is a real you know I've probably got five or six books going at one time and just depending on what the release for me is I choose the book accordingly sometimes you hear five say they have a special room in their house that they go to be alone sometimes self-prescribed say their house period is their sanctuary I know two fives who actually designed their own house you know or designed a big addition to the house and so the physical structure and the barrier around that can be very important my friend is the one who wrote the piece and my in the complete Enneagram I have for each of the subtypes I have someone writing something who's actually that type and she talks about how when she moved into her house her next-door neighbor came over and welcomed her but invited her to be in a book club with her and she said that idea sounded like the absolute worst idea she'd ever heard in her life she said it was as if the woman asked her to run away and join the circus with her it was that distasteful like why would I want to be in a book club with the person who's right next door to me like she's hoping that person never knocks on her door again she doesn't want to go to she doesn't want to go to block parties so there's this sense of like my home my private space is is too is very precious and she said she likes nothing more than being at home by herself at home just at home but outfit with and again if someone drops by unannounced that's that feels intrusive because there is this sense of safety and security that you can have at home anything you want to say about about an answer to that question where do you go or do you like to be alone what I mean I guess the short answer is home but it's I mean it's it's something that it's like the opposite of doing Aikido that this is I automatic like I don't have time never ever had to try to do that because I do that automatically like I have I guess one of the insights I had when I about being a five was that I have too much security and protection and time alone and I have like a massive surplus of all of that uh and so I don't I've never I never think about this question because I'm kind of trying to move away from it really mm-hmm rather than just yeah it's it's happening all the time for you yeah yeah they're questions yeah may I still ask did I hear correctly that you were working in a cubicle no I'm about three days a week I work in a clinic and so if I'm not in an exam room and I have to work on the computer it's at a little cubicle yeah feel comfortable you know then you want to have your own space how are you with a cubicle yeah yeah oh I'd rather have my own but it's not up to me yeah but like I said I mean I gave you one example of a distraction from another from a colleague so yeah of course I'd rather have my own other questions for Vives yeah I have any suggestions for those of us in relationship with Phibes in my life yeah might be good to hear from all of you about suggestions for fun for I'm still learning that one yeah yeah I think my example with my husband and making agreements and just checking it out I think for me if somebody asked me a question about how I'm feeling or what I'm doing I'm very happy to share it but I don't want that to be assumed so maybe hmm maybe finding out what what you can do or you know how you can interact in a way that is comfortable so checking things out maybe asking you know yeah yeah any other tips for people who are in relationship with fives in the last workshop you had with the floors type floors talked about the backstory and how they naturally come up with some wonderful stories and I've seen that it's really amazing and so I have those back stories but they don't come out they don't flow like they do with the floor and so the questioning is really helpful if you can I do have stuff in here but it's not going to volunteer itself so if you have questions and kind of leave it out if you really because I am always thinking are you really interested or is this just small talk and if there's no interest why am I doing this but if there really is and you're questioning then sometimes things just bubble out that there may be helpful I don't know that's a really good one yeah you may doubt if we're interested and so one thing we can do is ask questions but again I would assume also make it okay to say no if you don't want to share great is that well again I've got I've found that I have a lot of free time to by myself so you're mostly willing to share but if people ask questions that helps you know that you're interested it helps bring it helps you bring it out right if I recognize as an authentic interest and sharing is open it's an open channel it's just not something I'm able to throw out the backstory and a beautiful sometimes in graceful way kind of the information thing there it's just it's great thank you anyone else tips for getting along with me my wife Cheryl maybe anagram for she hasn't studied it yet but I've I've read the description to her and so she's thinking about it and so being married for 35 years of social fivin I think probably a social for you know the four along with the two most need love and affection and the five is the most isolated point on the anagram so once I understood that and once Charlotte least thought that maybe she was at four not having studied it we were able to kind of laugh about it you know it's like you know here we are right but because the one-to-one five has more access to emotions than the other five types and because I really need love and and and need to love there's a lot of space where we can really meet there and then in terms of going to seven I would almost ask you this Beatrice I'm really fine in in interaction with people at commonweal it's constant because I have a purpose and then I'm fine with it and and moreover in a work setting you don't you use time economically so nobody's kind of hanging on to me for an endless purpose we're doing something and we'll take as long as it needs and maybe it'll take a lot of time but when it's done it's done and we move on to something else and and I also need the boundary at the end of the day whenever that is I need to stop you know and I need to go into my routine so self renewal and you know so so I'm I'm comfortable in relationships has some combination of a sexual and social that's great just in that what I described as a conversation about what the need is I think it would be important for me to be prepared for that so if the conversation was going to be had I wouldn't want it to be just a spontaneous thing then I feel like I would probably be suspicious that why are you asking me these things but if it was prefaced by I really understand how we can have a more meaningful deep deeper relationship and then it it would feel more authentic anything else you want to add to that Terry okay okay this is the most withdrawing type wouldn't normally probably just want to sit in front of a room and talk about themselves but what you're talking about yeah I think sometimes what's easier to share is the knowledge and the information which is part of what's happening now it's a little bit harder to share the personal stuff you know like you're saying with its purpose then it makes sense but is that considered going to seven in other words if I go to seven with purpose am I actually going to seven or do I have to figure out how to go to cocktail party I think it's I think the growing edge is always sharing more about yourself and not just the purpose or the task yeah okay one more question yep so I'm curious because the vibes are withdrawn and relationships first some of you seem to be a little bit more challenging what I'm curious Michael how you've made your marriage last for so many years if you need so much alone time and so much withdrawing time to have that togetherness to have that relationship level well that's a great question you might want to ask what I would say is when char was growing up in a small town in Colorado where there were no Jews she decided at some point that she didn't want to marry the captain of the football team she wanted to marry a Jewish or half Jewish guy from the East Coast when I was in my first marriage I had this strange feeling that I was supposed to be with a blonde woman from a small town in Colorado and you know I have my basic theories about relationship are first that if it first that it lead love aside it helps to like each other and the second one is that both people have to have a fierce dedication to making it work and the third thing is that you will figure out how you drive each other crazy and the relationship will depend on what how you deal with that and the fourth and final thing is that it helps to have something bigger than both of you that holds you together and I mean from the time we got together we knew that we were in this for life that we were fiercely dedicated to it and we do actually like each other as well as love each other we've know how we drive each other crazy and we figured out ways around it which are basically not to talk about it passionate commitment to doing work that helps people in the world and so actually it's a pretty wonderful relationship a lot of the time and I think in a 35 year marriage you actually go through five or seven different marriages and each one is a new adventure all right I think we have to leave it there because we are out of time but and now we'll take a right oh yeah we have let's have one more from the woman in question should we can you can you pass the Spector oh thank you I don't start over we have through the years we find each other incredibly interesting because we are so different I mean we look each other and say that is the most interesting thing I've seen anybody ever do why would you want to do that that is really something and just kind of appreciate that and I found dealing with this five the best way to relate to her when I really need something is not to talk about it but you come in at an angle come in some kind of an angle rather than sit down and rationalizing this and this and share information which is okay we need some real serious hugs here let's just come in with some pure physicality or something like that or something that will surprise them in a way that doesn't scare him right I mean he I'm the kind of person if somebody said to me let's run off on to the circus tomorrow I say okay I'll go pack my bags this is why and Michael's the kind of persistable what time you're going to bed I need to know what time we're going to bed tonight you know what so know what's happening and I don't know oh there's a big surprise that they were just so open the door and there's a hawk right on the apple tree so they ever been there before Michael you see I mean just you know find out where the gentle surprises are and find a way to share that sounds like you appreciate me they're fine does sound like that yeah yeah but don't you think this true Mike yes all right thank you so much to nail things down is a very useful thing just avoid it find a way to sneak in and find enjoyment great tips I'm taking those myself for my boyfriend all right thank you so much panelist [Applause] [Music] you you

Channel: NewSchoolCommonweal

Views: 53,092

Rating: 4.8693466 out of 5

Keywords: TNS, Enneagram, archetype, psychology, archetypal, personality, Beatrice, Chestnut, Palmer, Helen, Gurdjieff, Lerner, Michael, HR, organizations, 5 type, 6 type, 7 type

Id: 8-vZtfZB7Is

Length: 109min 18sec (6558 seconds)

Published: Mon Apr 29 2019