Another worship leader loses his faith. What's going on? Jon Steingard & Sean McDowell

[Music] well hello and welcome to the show I'm Justin Bradley this is unbelievable bringing you conversations that matter and you can enjoy many more dialogues and debates here on our YouTube channel or indeed subscribe over at the unbelievable podcast for weekly shows there's also the newsletter the app and ways to support the show as well if you go to premier Christian radio com forward slash unbelievable well today's show is all about another Christian worship leader who's lost his faith what's going on you're asking on today's show John Stein guard of the Christian band Hawk Nelson recently announced on Instagram that he no longer considers himself a Christian and he's the latest in a number of Christian personalities who have renounced their faith so John's joining me to talk about his story and engage with our Christian guests Sean McDowell who's written a response blog to John's and Sean's been on the show a number of times before very recently actually and I'm gonna make sure there are links to both my guests you can find it in the show info today so do make sure to check out both their websites their Instagram and Twitter and so on welcome along to the show John and Sean great to have you with me hey Justin thanks for having us let's start with you John as a newcomer to the show I must confess I haven't followed Hawk Nelson but I do know some of the songs I think one of your songs diamonds is actually on regular rotation on our radio station at the moment but obviously you've become more well-known in a way in the last few weeks since you made this declaration on your Instagram take us back though tell us what you growing up was where Christian faith came into the picture for you there and what this what this recent journey has been in terms of you deciding actually you're not sure you believe it anymore totally well I grew up in a Christian home I'm a pastor's kid my my parents yeah are just incredibly loving warm people sometimes in this process people have said oh you must not have been parented right and if you come at my mama I'm telling you so so yeah but but basically I was raised in a very Christian environment participating in Christian culture definitely in the 90s when I was you know a older child and like a young teen there was definitely a movement of like Christian everything right it was like so like secular is bad and we don't touch that stuff and we do everything Christian and so I was I definitely came up in that environment and when I when I was twenty I joined a band called Hawk Nelson and we started you know touring in the US and and that became a full-time thing really quickly and ended up doing that for 15 years or 16 years and through the process of that like I started out as the guitar player so I was just sort of in a more supportive role and I became the singer in 2012 and that kind of catapulted me into this position where I had a microphone and I was writing songs and I was sort of like casting the vision for the band and a funny thing happens when when you become the singer of a Christian band all of a sudden you're put in this role that has a almost a pastoral element and and there's an expectation that you're going to have something worthwhile to say and so I feel like that was a season of me digging in a little more and going like I really need to be able to say things that are meaningful and and and to write songs that are meaningful to people like I wanted to do that and and I did that and and as much as I could and and then over time I just started to have more and more questions about the reality of who God is and yeah the Christian faith and the traditions I had been raised in and I think while I was doing Hawk Nelson I think anytime I had a doubt or a question I was so terrified of it because it threatened my livelihood right and and my social relationships and my family relationships and like I was so scared of finding myself in this position where I'd have to get up on stage and sing something that I didn't believe that I think I just stuffed stuff to those questions and outs down for a long time and didn't let myself think about it and eventually you know for other reasons we started taking a sort of steps back from the band I had my wife and I had some kids all of us sort of developed different careers and I found myself in a place where my financial well-being my livelihood no longer depended on Hawk Nelson as much so it didn't like I didn't have to be a Christian to make a living anymore and and then it hit me one day if I don't have to believe in God do I and that question like I did not know what to do with that question it terrified me and it sort of set off this year-and-a-half process of reading learning trying to understand and that kind of led me to a place where eventually I felt like I had to be publicly honest about how I was feeling and that's what led to my post hmm I mean I looked up at some of the lyrics of some of the songs that you have written and sung in the past I mean going back I guess five years sold out says in a world full of followers I'll be a leader in a world full of doubters I'll be a believer I'm stepping out without a hesitation because the battle has already been won I mean how do you feel kind of revisiting some had a song yeah which proclaims such a bold face at least on the surface yeah no I I think that's awesome that you bring that up I I I feel super conflicted now when I hear that stuff not I don't find myself regretting it because I felt like I was in a position where my job was to create anthems of faith for believers and and while at the time I think I had the beginning seeds of some doubts I still like I still believed but I think even more than that like I really wanted to believe you know what I mean and I go back to that verse in I think it's John correct me if I'm wrong but like I believe helped me with my unbelief and I feel like I lived in that place for a really long time and when I wrote songs like that that was me going like I'm choosing to believe this even though I sometimes have doubts or a struggle but but I'm choosing to put my faith in this and that that sentiment sounds a lot more like one of the more recent songs that I dug out as well never let you down which is about two years old I think we're one of the lines is caught in chaos I'm knee-deep wrestling with all of my disbelief in this moment I hear you speak break through the noise and consume me it sir it sounds almost like a prayer of sort of you know I believe helped me in my unbelief sort of thing yeah yeah there's definitely some of that in there yeah yeah interesting stuff and I want to talk a little bit in today's show not just about the specific doubts that led you to this place in your journey but also kind of the fact that obviously as I'm sure you're fully aware there's been a number of other fairly high-profile people who who have shared similar things on Instagram and elsewhere in the last year or two welcome back to the show Sean it's great to have you back not the first time I've had you in this kind of a conversation but Campolo I think a couple of years ago you came on to do a kind of dialogue with an Ryan Bell - we've had a couple former evangelists pastors and had this dialogue and so he's been fun thanks for having me back well it's because you're a great person are doing these dialogues I invited actual and and me the the response blog I thought you did to John's statement was was very helpful measured gracious do you want to just sort of briefly spell out kind of some of the things you wanted to put across in that particular blog on your website oh sure I I was sitting down to work on something else and I saw your story come across John I thought oh man this is a big story a lot of people are gonna be talking about this I set aside what I was gonna do and said you know what I want to just give a thoughtful respectful measured response because I know some people would dismiss your story entirely sadly some people jump onto say it's right Christian's false I'm like well that's not it doesn't follow from that and I also felt like I really related to your story as I read it not that I'm a rock star every time I sing my kids are like save it for speaking I cannot see anything no musical talent but I grew up in a Christian home back in a very public Christian home and now have somewhat of a public life and understand some of the dynamic of like wow if I don't believe this what it means for my relationships what it would mean for my future like I get that not just intellectually but emotionally and I really known for you as you wrote it I thought man use the word terrified in your post I thought man here's a guy who's being vulnerable and open let's respond but do so kindly and I was hoping you'd read it had no idea you did so it's great we're having having this conversation so I was just in some ways just kind of comparing and contrasting our stories a little bit and obviously there's so much more to your story than in that blog but one of the differences was she meant you mentioned out I have a father who's been an apologist for 50-plus years before any modern apologist he was doing this and as confident as he is in his faith and writes books called evidence that demands a verdict one of the narratives that he pushed to me was he say son question things always look at both sides doubt is okay and a lot of people are surprised by that and I did go through a doubting peer when I was about 19 years old when the internet was really getting big and you could first search stuff and I found some of the Atheist web began responding to my dad's book chapter by chapter and it really threw me for a spin like wow I know he means well but holy cow what if these people are right and I remember laying in my bed John feeling that like holy cow this is radical and to make a long story short I had a conversation to my dad and he goes son I think that's great your daddy and I'm like did you hear anything I just said you just believe because I said or believed because of some emotion follow truth no matter where it leads and if you really think Christian the evidence doesn't pointers Shanny don't be a Christian and he said you know your mom and I will love you no matter what and I can tell you that just gave me some freedom to really look at my life before it was public writing speaking going through that saying okay what do I believe why does this make sense I've gotta have some authenticity there so I think some of our experiences in the church was a little bit different our experiences would doubt had some difference although I think there's a lot in common we could draw out some of these that I think it just would be helpful for people looking in at our art to experiences yeah and I was gonna say that inevitably you you you were in a somewhat unusual position Sean of growing up with an apologist father and so had yeah I guess a lot of opportunity to engage growing up with with those ways of looking at faith and understanding I don't know what your experience was though John whether it was it was not so much a kind of church tradition or faith that engaged with the intellectual questions around Christianity what was your experience growing up yeah I mean I definitely grew up in a very charismatic environment so a heavy emphasis on the Holy Spirit emphasis on a very it was a very experiential environment and you know as as you know like experiences are very subjective so so I feel like that was sort of the environment I I really grew up in when I was 17 or 18 I moved out on my own for a while and I started going to this church that's an offshoot of the Baptist movement it's called I mean are you familiar with Willow Creek in Chicago it's a it's a it's a there in Barrie Ontario where I was living there was a there was a daughter Church or a sister Church or a said you know affiliated Church of Willow Creek and the pastor there was like like I grew up in this like free-flowing hippie almost sort of like church service style and I started going to this Willow Creek Church and like it was structured and they would end at like 12:00 p.m. exactly and and you know and the teaching was much more professore eeeh you know it was it was hey this month we're looking at this section of Scripture we're gonna break it down historically and see what they're you know what is what is this text trying to tell us in the context of you know what it when it was written and that was really really interesting to me and I really loved my time at that church because it's it it taught me a whole new way of looking at God and the Bible and and and it was really helpful I think as I went more into touring and being a part of the band the thing about touring is that is that you you're on the road every weekend and so for a solid like 10 years pretty much every Sunday we were traveling playing a show somewhere so I really struggled to be connected to a church during that time and I would go to a church like on a random Sunday and not really feel connected to it I would try to watch live streams as that became a thing and I just never felt like I connected and I can imagine it's a slightly almost a schizophrenic experience just experiencing such a you know a wide range of church services but not really having one to call home for a long time yeah and the other thing I saw during that time too it was like you know sometimes we'd play it out of church on Sunday and I participate or I'd visit their service and like there's a really wide variety of churches in America and and it it was really interesting for me to see all these different expressions of faith and go like that interesting like pretty much all of these people or these groups there's this little bit of a sense of like well you know we're all Christians but like we got it right and and and I remember noticing that and being like well that's well that's interesting you know is that and wondering like is there of is there a right version of this you know or is it or there you know or or is is the sort of like diversity is that a feature you know well I'd be interested in for you on some of that Shawn both I suppose the experience as as John says they're far more of an experiential kind of way of influencing Christianity only later really experiencing something that's got more of a historical sort of intellectual kind of basis to it and and yeah and just the fact that in the course of touring obviously not having a church to call home but seeing hang on Christians are pretty varied actually in terms of the way they express their faith and maybe what they believe as well any thoughts on that John well I can definitely relate to degree when I spend your child my dad out of college and we traveled with like Rebecca st. James on a bus tour and you're there non-stop and there's some relational challenges that come with that they're difficult to connect in a church just not feeling like I know people here and that that disconnection from church and consistent relationships can affect you emotionally can affect us on so many different levels is interesting here that your experience was was so experiential I wouldn't worked at a church in LA called the Dream Center for a year and that I know a charismatic church and that just rocked me out of my comfort zone it kind of made me realize you know there's people that have a very experiential faith you know Jesus said love God with your heart and with your soul and with your mind there's an emotional component and there's an intellectual component and I think the healthy balance is between the tune it sounds like the two of us came from a little bit of a different background than that but I won't say one thing that that my dad taught me and I'd be curious we think about this he'd say son guard your heart with your mind not your mind with your heart guard your heart with your mind not your mind with your heart in other words my thing said our experience can be interpreted in so many different ways and lead us astray with our feelings in our experience there has to be an anchor of what is actually true that helps us process this experience so for me as I've seen things in the world that are heartbreaking and you know and questions that I have I always come back to the question okay why am i Christian when I believe this and for me it's because I really believe it's true that Jesus rose from the grave and I think that evidence is there number one and then number two I think existentially and there's a heartcry for us for a story like that which is why I once spent too much time in this but even the movie infinity where an end game climaxes with one person the only of 14 million possible ways that you can save the universe with somebody laying down their life it's like we resonate with that that's the human heart and the evidence backs it up so we need both of these I think there's value in it but I think always going back to the question especially with what scripture says I know you did believe about the heart can be deceptive and Jesus said it's from the inside that comes you know lust and greed and sloth we've always got to come back to what is true that's kind of what my parents taught me as I process different experiences yeah and that that is um I just agree with so much of what you're saying here like like I do agree that you do have to have some sort of an anchor like there has to be some sort of a foundation to your belief that that is solid you have to be able to build on something you and and you know I I think the whole yeah the thing that is interesting to me is is that when I look at what people choose as an anchor sometimes I look at it and I go well like I don't know that that's objectively true but this person has chosen this anchor and and sometimes the evidence given is the benefits right and it's like well look at all the benefits of living as a Christian you know the community look at what happens when someone who's plugged into a Christian Church look at what happens when they die how people typically gather around the family and support them so well like these are benefits right and so sometimes all of these things are given as evidence and I'm like well those things are great and they're actually like a great thing to be a part of but just because something is beneficial doesn't make it objectively like literally true amen and and so like so I look at like like like money right like money has no literal value but it has value because we all agree it has value human rights atheists most atheists would say they believe in human rights but human rights are you know if you don't believe in any higher power then human rights are just a human construct right we decide we decide that it's better to live in a society where we all believe in human rights and so that's not something that's literally true if you're an atheist but it's beneficial to believe and and there's been a lot of times where I've began I've begun to look at Christianity in some of those same ways and going like well asking if it's beneficial and asking if it's true are not the same question I could not agree more with that and I think this is this may be an area where we just had different experiences and different percent with what you said I did my dissertation as Justin knows on the deaths of the Apostles did they really die as martyrs so I've read the New Testament every single book closely looking at how many times Jesus said expect to suffer you know pick up your cross we have the example of Paul teaching this in all of his books Hebrews James etc you will suffer so what the Apostles proclaim is Jesus roast and grave we are witnesses of this and they put themselves in harm's way not for something they're gonna benefit on this earth but because they think the story is really true so for me I've never been a Christian because of what I would get from it I mean just read the New Testament it's obvious that the apostles are willing to lay down their lives in fact it's the opposite now we could talk about a benefit in heaven but I think that's a different dimension of this sure so I think what happens is sadly we tell people they become a Christian Jesus will answer your prayers they become a Christian he'll make you happy they become a Christian he'll bring you that spouse they become Christian a B or C and somebody suffers and they Chuck the Christian faith because they've been given a straw man about this rather than just look in the New Testament say gosh actually if you follow Jesus it might cost you everything so why follow Jesus only for one good reason if it's actually true Dimon's Israel so I take students John it's interesting right on the board I say give me all the reasons why people believe what they believe and they'll write down psychological reasons they'll write down cultural reasons they'll write down emotional reasons and one by one we knock them all off and when it's all said and done they say the only good reasonably of anything it's not because your parents taught you your parents can be wrong not because some holy book teaches you what if that book is wrong only believe something if it's true now how we know what is true is the follow-up question but to me that has to be the anchor I think I'm going to agree on that not benefits not what I get from something but whether this is true or not has to be the heart of the question I'd love to come back to that in just a moment I'm gonna I'm gonna go to a break slightly early just so we can have a little bit more time to tease these issues out in the next section because I thought that was a good place to maybe just put a pause on the conversation really interesting show today John Stein guard of the Christian band Hawk Nelson who recently renounced his faithful one to the better words on Instagram joins us on the show today in conversation we assure McDowell who's a Christian thinker by the way Stein guard created calm if you want to find out more about John Sean McDowell org for Sean's website and I'll make sure there are links of course from today's show as well you can find us over at premier Christian radio com forward slash unbelievable and I want to talk gen tlemen ears we're going the next section again about the fact that as I mentioned earlier this comes in the wake of other similar stories and maybe tease out some of the some what's going on there and and if there are any conclusions we can draw but we'll be back in just a moment's time after a short break what I want to invite Roger to comment on is why couldn't the mental realm include an infinite consciousness it's too much like us yes like the Greek uses the gods in something much like a finite we're talking about a metaphysically necessary source I'd mother's noble aspiration to find the highest possible ideal it's almost as if you're proposing a new religion yeah to meet this new challenge it's not a new religious what it is is something that sits in the same place it addresses some of the same needs but it is not founded on the same principle if the New Testament says that Jesus did XY and Z did he do it or not I don't think it's a story that's made by committed am I gonna have a later literary genius who comes up with a great story like this or am I gonna say no Jesus is the genius and somehow that story has basically been preserved welcome back to today's edition of unbelievable with me Justin Bradley today on the show we're talking with John Stein gah he's the lead singer of Hulk Nelson or perhaps was because I'm not sure exactly what the status of the band is now John I I mean before we talking him Rishon I just be interested actually from your perspective how a friends family and the band members responded to your your your recent sort of you know revelations on Instagram honestly I was really amazed with how how loving and kind pretty much everyone has been everyone that I know particularly like you know I had most of the people close to me we're not surprised when I wrote this because we've had a lot of conversations I did send a text to like my parents that morning and my wife's parents and you know a few close friends saying okay I'm posting this thing today I don't want you to feel blindsided by it you know please let's talk about it if if there's things you want to talk about so I did make an effort to try and like soften it with some people but like 90% of my friends are Christian and so this is this is like not easy because it's it's difficult to say that you don't believe without also feeling like you're saying I think you're wrong and you're you know delusional which is I have no desire to say that to people that I love you know so that's been that's been hard but I've received a lot of grace and a lot of kindness that's that's really good to hear in a way though it does tie in with something you expressed in in that post you made in what you've said since that to some extent it might be easier at one level to have simply pushed those those doubts down for the sake with the fact that you do live in a very Christian environment and you up to recently at least were making a living through Christian means and and I you know as a the host of this show as a Christian working for a Christian radio station sometimes you know some some cheeky atheists have suggested well would you be a Christian Justin if your livelihood didn't and on it I'm married to a church minister Lucy and all that kind of mean and and I can't deny that obviously that's got to have some effect I'm not going to pretend that none of that makes any difference hmm all I can do I guess my only defense is to say well eh I am a Christian I'm not pretending and beer a the I try to be as jet objective as I can but and the end of yeah all of us are you know living in a subjective world and we just have to accept that and we're all doing our best to work this out well and I think it's healthy for us to to deal with each other and whenever possible assume the BET assume that people are motivated by what they say they're motivated by right like everything devolves to a pretty difficult place when when everyone is suspicious of everyone else's motives so so I go into these conversations going like I I assume that you are who you say you are and that you're doing what you're doing because you believe it and and I think life is better if we all do that do you ever get that Shawn people saying well if if you weren't a Christian apologist embedded in the Christian you know culture you you probably wouldn't be a Christian or something like that typically from people who don't know me I'll get comments on Twitter like just this week somebody's like you know if you're a Christian why would you give all of your curriculum away for free and I was like well I've got a family to support I give a ton of stuff away for free and part of me wanted to say look here's all these things I didn't justify myself I might give me a brain like this is not gonna win anything this person doesn't know me I can tell you anybody who knows me they'll say yes Shawn's not perfect as much as the next guy but he believes this tries to do scholarship with integrity and takes ideas seriously I mean I've had my wife remembers we dated in I mean we dated like a decade before we got married so she knew me back when I was a kid and she remembers that night I loved her well before we were married and I said I'm not sure I believe this I can't miss something if it's false my wife saw that so people can say what they may that doesn't bother me I just look at I know you said the same thing John that those who know me and I can just look in the mirror and have some integrity mm-hmm III like to say that I like to say that I've got 15 years of experience ignoring random people on the internet so I think if if someone who I knew deeply know me it knew me if someone who deeply knew me was questioning my integrity or my reasons for saying any of the things that I've said I think that would hurt a lot more but I haven't really experienced a lot of that what about you guys make of other stories that are not dissimilar to John's last summer Josh Harris well known as I kiss gay dating goodbye author and went on to become a pastor of a significant church but kind of came out said I'm no longer a Christian Marty Sampson former Hillsong worship leader managed to actually sit down and have a coffee with with Marty in London actually not long after and get some of his story though haven't had him on the show and then just recently I saw this story about rhett and Link who I must admit I hadn't been very familiar with but apparently big big deal in the YouTube world and podcasting so on talking about their sort of having been in the kind of evangelical church moving out of it and then in the past you've had Michael congers and Bob Campo knows who we've mentioned already feels like I don't know there's been a bit of a an increase almost it may be just anecdotally but feels like oh you know if you were just watching those headlines you might think there's some kind of mass exodus from the Christian Church Shawn I don't know I don't know what your feelings are on that and maybe John whether any of those stories influenced your own decision to come out or whether you were actually unfamiliar with them before you you made your your choice I'll start with you John and then then get Sean's perspective on sure yeah I was familiar with Marty and with Josh Harris I was not familiar with rhett and Link although after a bunch of people telling me that some of the stuff that I had said was very similar to what they had said I went and listened to their stories of deconstruction on their podcast and I mean right down to the sweater metaphor like they used the same metaphor our Rhett did and and so I was I was sort of stunned by a lot of the similar in my story between Rhett story and my story and then Michael Ganga I've been just recently getting into the liturgist podcasts and and science Mike as well the you know the the dialogue between the two of them is super interesting and I'm just sort of starting that journey right now so I feel like I have a lot more to learn about their perspective mm-hmm what do you make of these recent stories Sean well I guess I could look at a few ways number one one of the reasons we hear more is we have so many mediums of social media whether it's Instagram you shared on Instagram people on Twitter on a blog on YouTube every single person has a voice today in a way that they didn't even a decade or two decades or three decades ago so because these kinds of stories are fascinating and by the way the blog height in you John was shared on Facebook more than any other blog I've ever written really it blew me away like well I don't know if it was the most read but the most share on Facebook there's just an interest on all sides of the story when this happens so I think a lot of what's going on is a phenomena of just people going oh who is this I know that bad why I'm interested I can relate and it just bubbles up when we live in this culture where we constantly need something new to entertain us every moment I think that has some to do with it as a Christian who's faithful I mean faithful in the sense of imply you're not maybe I was on my Play not I'm not I'm not offended I'm not offended or I mean who's trying to live out what I believe to the called what I think Jesus said that's all I meant by that no you're fine you're fine that story is not very exciting to people it's not very exciting when they go yeah Josh McHale son went through a questioning period but he's an apologist - yay well Bart Campolo comes out and says his dad was a big evangelist he's now an atheist and the news stories around the country cover it so I think there's just a huge biased and an interest that moves these stories forward in a way that doesn't necessarily mean it's happening more now than it was in the past necessarily although I'd like to see some data if someone has research on it yeah I would actually be interested to know I mean I suppose it does perhaps reflects the fact that obviously in the West you are seeing you know an increase in the nuns and those you know who simply don't profess any religion and and is it conceivable that that I don't know is it harder to be a Christian in an increasingly skeptical environment you know I guess when you know we all grew up in the 80s and 90s right guys that I without asking specific ages here but for me I wasn't presented in it as a teenager with masses of sceptical material online as I would be now growing up it's only a Google click away you know now I've sort of put myself into the firing line by hosting unbelievable further you know the past 14 years or whatever where we encourage and engage these these debates and so on but it does it does make me wonder whether it's it's kind of harder in a way you're gonna be under more pressure these days to to justify your faith and if you don't fear and if you're asked hard questions and you don't have the answers then then yeah it might be the case that you your faith does either suffer or go belly up in the end what was your experience John I mean do you do you feel like you you say you had stuffed the questions down mm-hmm and when I saw on your blog you say but then I started to think about the problem of evil and what what about the inconsistencies in the Gospels and and so on I thought okay well I've you know I've encountered all of those questions and they've certainly made me question and I've had to go through a period of on trying to understand but I came out the other side actually feeling more confident actually in my faith in many respects but for you obviously that was not the same story so what happened for you what what would you say were the things that just stuck and did not you couldn't get past that in the end sure yeah I I mean for me while I totally will be the first to admit that I think when it comes to things like apologetics and like the really intellectual side of theology and faith from the Christian perspective I was under ed up until a couple of years ago and and I think when I started doubting I mean my desire was not like cool I'm free now I can just like sometimes that was this perspective that like people that decide to take a step back from Christianity or from faith they're it's because they like want to go out and do a lot of sinning and like and that just was not where I was at I genuinely just like like Sean like you said like like what is true like I really want what is true and to be totally clear like to this day my preference is that there is a loving father you know that there is a God who has that persona I would prefer that to be true I I went through a period where where I really when I was really doubting where I was I was really depressed because the idea it's like losing faith in God was like losing your security losing the this idea that someone's looking out for you looking you know has a plan for your life is devastating but sorry two more to your question like what that process was like I I was reading I went through a season where I was getting up at like 3:00 in the morning so that I could read for like three or four or five hours before anyone got up and you know I was reading Ravi Zacharias at the same time as I was reading Rob Bell and you know reading sam harris at the same time as Lee Strobel so like I was I was trying to make sure I was jumping around between people of different points of view so I wasn't pigeon holed into someone else's perspective and I just came away with this feeling like everyone is just deciding for themselves what they want to believe and there's no way to know for sure that that was the conclusion I reached and then when I reached that I and a real key point for me was the inerrancy of the Bible and going like okay if the Bible is not the perfect Word of God like I was taught then like to your point Sean about the anchor like what's the anchor and that was a that was a big turning point for me that that felt like a loss it didn't feel like a victory you know it's interesting to hear you say that love to your response on that Sean and and what I suppose having encountered I would imagine all of the same objections and so on and and gone through a period of doubting yourself why you went why you did feel that there was an anchor there in the end yeah first off and again thanks for your vulnerability John I know it brings you no pleasure to share some of your doubts but one of things I appreciate in your posts is you just strike me as very honest and seeking truth and that's what makes his conversations great two things jumped out to me one me I went through a period of going gosh I can't know for sure either but that's where I shifted my thinking I don't think knowledge requires certainty if my level was I have to know for sure that Christianity is true I would not be a Christian I live with doubts and even in Jude it says you know I have mercy on those who doubt to me doubt is not the opposite of faith or belief or knowledge necessarily the question for me was what is the most reasonable what makes the most sense even if my have some thousand questions because I know so many people who say I can't know for sure I can't know anything I think there's a lot of stuff we know for which we don't have certainty so that's how I approach my faith when you mentioned inerrancy I also was taught the Bible is the inerrant perfect Word of God I mean few people in the last half century defended scripture more than my dad but I also in my mind I say okay what's the heart central issue yes it's truth but to Christianity is not inerrancy if we had an errant Bible and Jesus rose from the grave Christianity still will be true I'm not saying the bible's errands I don't believe that I mean think in terms of like what's the central question to me the question is did Jesus claim to be God did he die bury raised on the third day and we can get there through a flawed historical book through a book that has errors in it now again I don't believe it's flawed and there's heirs we can talk about why but at the heart of it even if I thought there were contradictions in the Bible where there was some estate oops they got one wrong book here not the other one I wouldn't shut my faith now that'd be unsettling to me it'd make me rethink what's meant by inerrancy it made me rethink a lot of things but this is why in 1st Corinthians 15 Paul says I pass on you have first importance it was passed on to me Jesus died was buried rose on the third day that's the central Creed of the Christian faith that if that was shown to be false or I didn't think it was true that would unravel the sweater for me so to speak mm-hmm I can I respond to that real quick Justin is that is that I I just love so much of that and and I agree like I've had a couple actually since I've posted like my thinking has continued to evolve and I've you know I said earlier that like I would prefer that God is real and I found that I have continued to search for a way to believe since I posted which it's funny because I kind of thought like it would be this like post and you know now I'm free of this problem and I can go on living my life and I've discovered that over the last month I've never thought about God more I've never thought about it so it's this really weird thing and I've read a ton more and one of the things that I encountered is this this book by and I don't know how to pronounce his last name properly but Mike Micmac are you but they call him science Mike I don't know if you're he's part of the liturgist and and he asks this question in his book you know and when talking about the Bible is it true it's like it's like think about Vincent van Gogh's night is starry night true and and the the what that question did for me is sort of go like it sort of put me in this place where I wondered like maybe asking if it's literally true it's not the most interesting question maybe what's more interesting is is it speaking is it is it is it speaking to you is it saying something meaningful and and that's a question I've been pondering a lot actually since since I posted and going like if I can let go of this this you know this absolutist point of view and like just set aside the whole like literal truth thing for a second like do I have things that I can learn from it and that's something I've been thinking about a lot recently I think that's really thoughtful and interesting one way I would push back on on Mike as I would say yeah there's valuable lessons in the scriptures but remember jesus said and Paul writes in 1st Corinthians 15 if Jesus has not risen from the grave like this faith is in vain so the Jesus wasn't just a moral teacher trying to help us how to live our life and be better people his moral teachings were tied to his claim that he is God and human flesh and died in the cross for our sins so I want anybody to look in and get good teachings from Jesus I'm not sure he would have been ok with people separating the moral message he taught from his larger world view and vision which was in fact you know to die in the cross so that be a little bit of a distinction I I might yeah it's interesting you bring up Mike though he's been a former guest on on this show and a mic story obviously it has told in that book you referenced God in the waves finding God in the ways sort of details he's basically his complete deconstruction where he completely lost his faith and became you know basically a naturalist atheist for a time and then kind of had this very I think he would say experiential experience yes suddenly kind of God suddenly came crashing back in obviously led him into a very different kind of expression and understanding of that faith I was very progressive in this sort of theology and so on now but yeah unless some some kind of a faith now now obviously my guess is Shawn for you it's important that we don't just if you like unshackle ourselves entirely from the doctrines of Christianity that it's important that there's a sort of historical truth there that there needs to be grasped and and I suppose the way people reconstruct can be good or not so good in your view depending on on where they where they come back to Shawn well yeah I don't think Jesus allowed us to do such a thing when he talks about why he came when Paul writes in his different letters in particular first Corinthians 15 the moral message is tied to whether this is true or not and this is a difference between progressive Christianity and what I would call historic Christianity more conservative Christianity so the hard the question to me is not are there moral teachings I can take from Jesus because I can take moral teachings from anybody the hard question is did Jesus actually claim to be God was he really sinless did he die in the cross if so Christian is true if not it's false then you can take certain moral meanings but like you said earlier John if there is no God I don't even know that these moral teachings mean because human rights are a human construct and so everything Jesus teaching is just a construct and thus would have no authority in your life and in my life if that's actually the case yeah no thank you for bringing that back home because I've had times in this journey where things did feel very wishy-washy right where it's like it's like okay I'm just floating out here and everyone just decides for themselves like this is like what kind of a world is this so I I identify with what you're saying and I and and I appreciate that you're bringing things back to the anchor of truth that you that you believe in that you have found to be true in your heart I I can go back to what you said earlier you mentioned that you you did a lot of studying and you looked at like what struck you it's not that you had absolute certainty it's that you found that what you you ask yourself what strikes you as the most reasonable conclusion to draw based on what you know is that is that how you said it or and and I think that that's a really honest approach and way of describing you know the basis for your faith I think that's great then so much better than just saying like oh well this is true end of story in no discussion the process that I went through I found myself asking the same question and going like based on what I know right now what is the most reasonable conclusion that I feel like I can draw and what I had a hard time escaping was the idea that that man you know human beings evolved and became you know larger societies because using religion as a tool to hold society together that you know in antiquity like there were tribes of people that you know sociologically it's really difficult to get groups of people more than 150 to two year as a society because you can only really deeply know about a hundred hundred and fifty people so beyond 150 people in order to to create a society bigger than that you need some sort of something and and you know in a lot of what I've read it sort of indicated that that religion was something that was a really helpful tool it's like a shared mythical fiction that that people can use as a basis for knowing like hey there's two thousand people in our people group I don't know them all personally but we all believe the same thing so we're tied together and when I when I read about that idea it changed the way I looked at not just Christianity but all faiths you know the these faiths that people hold bind to people group together even when that balloon far larger than than you could possibly know as individuals and that was a that was a thought that sort of led me to this it it aided in me getting to this place where it felt like the most reasonable or something you know conclusion I could draw was that a lot of the Christian beliefs were things that we created in order to adhere a society together which at times it's done very well will will have a response from you shown and then we'll go to a final break yeah that's fascinating thank you for sharing that interesting for me I look at it the opposite which doesn't surprise you is I think if you look at the Christian faith there's so many things inherent in it that are not the kind of thing somebody would create no with this let me take a step back how does Christian been used as a tool to hurt and control and oppress people yes with so many racial issues going on right now it grieves me and I lose sleep over how many of my black friends feel and have experienced oppression by people using their Christian faith to do so that is wrong on so many levels and we can agree with that that's an abuse of what the religion actually teaches rather than what it really is about so if you're gonna make up a religion I mean think about the things that Jesus taught he said if you want to be first be last he said pick up your cross and follow me he says no it's not just committing adultery it's the thought in your heart hey true love is this lay down your life for a friend pray for your enemies I mean the teachings of Jesus are so radical and against the religion being used to a press and marginalized people that anybody who does so utterly misses what the Christian message is about now I won't mention them here but there's a lot of religions if either was making up a religion it would look a lot like a B and C because it has and has written into it certain power structures to oppress and control people when I look at Christian I see the life that Jesus lived the ethic he taught in the Sermon on the Mount I can't convince myself that people made this up as some tool of oppression and control over others it's the opposite give up your life lay it down love people pray for your enemies that's why I see that point just differently when I look at the teachings of Jesus we'll come back to this I'd love to explore this a little bit further and maybe open up maybe another important question that you asked in a subsequent Instagram post John which was well why doesn't God make himself more obvious as soon as you put it no one's arguing over the existence of lettuce or the force of gravity so so well maybe we'll come to that as well but fascinating conversation today looking at another Christian significant Christian personality who says that lost their faith John Stein Guard joins us on the show today along with Sean McDowell who's asking some of the questions of John and we're having a great conversation so you're listening to unbelievable with me Justin Bradley we'll be back in just a moment's time if you listen to unbelievable Justin brierley on premier Christian radio and enjoy the conversations between Christians and skeptics then this is the perfect app for you for the latest updates podcasts videos articles bonus content and mutton download premiere unbelievable app today [Music] final part of today's show with me Justin Broly talking to John Stein guard of the Christian band Hulk Nelson who recently announced on Instagram he doesn't consider himself a Christian any longer and the latest in a number of Christian personalities have made similar statements he's in conversation with Sean McDowell on today's show again just to remind it if you enjoy what you're watching today by our YouTube channel where you can find loads more discussions and dialogues on our channel you can also get weekly shows on podcast as well over at premier Christian radio com forward slash unbelievable so just in that last section we were sort of covering the kind of interesting question of is it just a religious fiction but a useful fiction in a way and and Sean kind of came back and said this isn't the kind of thing it straight to me if we would invent the kind of demands that Christianity makes on people are not necessarily easy ones and so on what were your thoughts on some of that before we move on to maybe talking about so yeah yeah I I just I think I should clarify that when I when I described the thought that potentially Christianity was sort of invented as a as a tool I didn't I didn't mean it as an oppressive tool although I agree with you Sean there's been times where it it's been that I'm more meant that it it it seems plausible to me that at times Christianity has has been something that's been able to adhere people groups together in a positive way and and I actually agree with you about about the teachings of Jesus I think they are revolutionary I think the idea of putting other people before yourself and serving other people is it it strikes me as a kind of alternative wisdom that is on the surface counterintuitive but somehow deeply true in our hearts and I think we've all probably experienced in life that like any time you've been very very selfish it doesn't tend to lead to a very fulfilling life but when you dedicate yourself to others when you when you love your spouse sacrificially and you provide for your children and you and you seek to do good in the world for others it has a way of making you feel fulfilled and and and bringing your life meaning and Jesus absolutely taught that and I recognized that you see that as evidence that like that idea couldn't have possibly been from man and I don't I don't know that I that I see that that conclusion is inevitable I'm not I'm not smart enough to say for sure but but no it's a good it's a good response because I think you know I was having the same thought as you there John that it could be the it's the benefits you know it's the group kind of benefits if you like yeah conceivably you're saying Christianity grew because it was in that way as I say a useful fiction as Brett Weinstein has described it on my show as well yeah I guess the question is then for you Sean is well is it you know it's that old thing is it true because it works or it works because it's true there's that sort of that's thing of do we say oh because it works I'm gonna invest my life in didn't believe it or actually does it work because actually the claims at the center of are actually indeed true I think that's a fair question and I wouldn't say just for clarification it's inevitable that it wasn't invented that probably is a little stronger than I would put it I would probably say it makes less sense to me that a religion of this kind was invented because it wouldn't foster the kind of outcomes that somebody would want the way inventing a religion differently would be that's probably how I would word it a little bit and I think you know the way he said I think I love this Johnny said when we live with selfishness at least a bad life when we sacrifice it means to a fulfilled life and we just might differ over this I look at that and I think that's because humans are designed and meant to live a certain way there's objective laws in the universe there's a certain human nature that we have and if I look at this purposeless naturalistic evolutionary story that doesn't seem to fit as much to me as if there's actually a designer who wants us to be generous with others who wants us to be kind who actually wants us to lay down our lives and sacrifice and by the way the idea of sacrifice doesn't make a lot of evolutionary sense now I know people can make up an evolutionary story well it was wired into us because if you have individuals that sacrifice then it helps the group like you can always make up some evolutionary story but back to endgame because I like superheroes you had this story climax with this hero who sacrifices for mankind and there's something in us that deeply resonates that that's not just helpful or beneficial for survival that's good in fact that's love that's why when Gamora in the movie infinity war you know Thanos he realizes he's gonna sacrificed her and she says this is not real love it's not and we deeply know that yet Jesus said it's you know greater love hath no man than this that a man lay down his life for his friend so along with the evidence of it being true I think there's this deep resonance in the human heart that makes more sense if there's a designer that wants us to live a certain way then that these things just bubbled up through this blind evolutionary process that just happens to have us treat this way I think I think that I just totally agree that it deeply resonates and I love the Avengers references like an addiction going with the Marvel films every time you know if I if every Sunday sermon involved in Avengers reference I'd be more likely to go to church but nobody know you know I mean the crux of what we're getting to here because Sean we agree on so much of this is we we agree that there's a resonance in the human heart that sacrifice is valuable and meaningful we agree on that we're we're we're coming up a little different is is that the cause or is that the effect right like it's the chicken and the egg do does that resonate with us because that's God's design or does that inherently resonate with us for some other reason and and that's what led us to to you know as human beings to write these stories and to tell each other these stories and to value these stories and do these stories encapsulate the you know are they the archetypes of the human heart right like our are they the vehicles by which we communicate our values to the next generation I think about that a lot and I I want I wonder that and by no means do I have conclusive evidence I just I wonder that the thing that this whole conversation part of the conversation is reminding me of his is part of that journey of CS Lewis actually when he was mmm walking with JR Tolkien in the gardens of Morton College Oxford and he said I find myself attracted to Christianity but I can't shake this feeling it's just another story of the dying and rising gods that have gone through history and we see these motifs again and again and and his friend Tolkien said well what if it's the true story that all of those know and the reflections of and and I found that an interesting way of looking at that whole thing that maybe there is a sort of something out there beyond us that they're all of these stories that whether it's an office or Tolkien or even are other forms of religion which should have you know overlap and so on and have similar motifs but I don't know what your thoughts are on this show that's just my take on it first off I noticed you always bring it back to a Brit at some point show there has to be some culture in the show at some point well CS Lewis is my absolute favorite author so I have to support that so here's what I would say if we just had this residence in the human part that would not be enough for me to be a Christian and believe in the resurrection I might believe in some other dying and rising that tells to me that's a sign that goes huh what does that tell me about being human what does that tell us about the universe and asius Lewis said you know there's something in us yearning for this greater truth but that alone like you said it beginning John just because we have a desire for something doesn't mean it's true I go back to the resurrection and I say we have early accounts of this Jesus who lived and who died who appeared to people who were willing to put their lives on the line for this and I think there's good evidence that it's true so I couple those together and in some ways it's the heart component we talked about like my heart is resonating for sacrifice my heart is recognized for that act this act of love but the mind tells me guy Jesus really rose from the grave and this is true and that's why in the Christmas story I find there's a residents of head and heart together guys this is so fascinating but I feel like time is against us and there's many more things I wanted to talk about look I'll leave it to you guys because we're probably only got time to do one of these one of the things that you brought up in in your Instagram post John was the issue of the the hiddenness of God to give it it's sort of philosophical title but why is it more obvious why doesn't God make his his existence more obvious to us in the way that we we don't disagree about the existence of lettuce there's also an interesting aspect of this that I haven't cut being seen covered so much but which you did talk about a little with my colleague Sam Hales on another interview for premiere Christianity magazine which is a problem of suffering and evil and and that's you've had some personal experiences which really brought that problem home in a way that you hadn't really encountered before perhaps will give you the opportunity John to choose which of those you'd like us to talk about sure I feel like the second the second issue is probably more personal and and might be might be more relevant to more people I think although the first one's definitely a big question maybe for next uh yes but yeah so I mean I grew up in Canada lived most of my adult life in the US and you don't have to leave North America to experience suffering and poverty and and and real hurt and real things that feel evil I over the last you know five or six years have done several projects that involve traveling to two very impoverished areas and in particular I went to Uganda about a year and a half ago and I documented a people group there called the Botwin no so I was a filmmaker I was in the role of filmmaker here and so I was capturing these images and hearing these stories and and there's you know this people group is a group that was displaced from their ancestral land you know homelands in these forests in Uganda in order to make gorillas sanctuaries which would bring in tourists and tourist revenue and when these people were pushed out that they had nowhere to go they had no skills they've been living off the land for generations and and many of the adults were were very discriminated against and and we're even you know killed by other locals and that left this population of orphans that I mean in some situations would just be found alone naked crying in the forest and I saw some of these things and I had just recently had a son and I was encountering these kids that were the same age as my son and I can't tell the story without losing its re I did not know what to do with that and I had always believed that God was so personal that he would answer even our even our silly prayers right even our prayers for a parking spot at church and and I really had believed that and and here I'm confronted with horrible suffering I mean 50 percent of these children don't make it to the age of five these are you know kids the same age as my son and now my daughter and to see them suffering like that and and and dealing with things that I couldn't imagine I had a really hard time reconciling the idea the image that I'd had in my mind of God the Father you know the loving God and like what father could see this and do nothing and and I know that there's like you know I know that there's like intellectual answers to that question because I've read them but in that moment and still when I take myself back to that place those answers feel deeply dissatisfying and that was a lynchpin I felt like a I felt like a very big part of my belief was was yanked out from under me through that experience John thanks for sharing that vulnerability as a dad I have three kids and resonate with that and I think when it's all said and done I had a debate a few years ago with this professor and my pastor before he said you better be ready to answer the problem people I said why he because he said because that's the issue look at racism gone are and now at the heart of it is suffering and evil so my LGBTQ friends have told me they said why has God made me this way why do I suffer this is the heart of the issue and I think you've hit that it's not only an intellectual issue it's an emotional issue and that's why it's so hard to feel like we're not just trying to solve a geometry problem here the writer self from we've experienced it we've all contributed to different ways and then when it hits us face to face like that it rocks us there's no question about that how much it does I I've had a chance to travel just because what my parents do with crusade to place like Latin America in different parts of Africa not Uganda but other parts in Africa Eastern Western Europe Latin America you name it and I've seen some pretty similar heartbreaking things like that and it I don't know that it ever made me question my faith and I can just tell you it's for a few reasons number one because as I read the Bible the Bible is very clear that this is a broken messed-up world it doesn't pretend like everything is fine if you just believe in Jesus as a Christian culture in the West do we do that absolutely so when we teach people hey Jesus gave a parking lot he's looking out for you it's natural looking Africa and go what the heck he cares for me but not these people who are dying like if that's really what the Bible taught I'm out I'm out but as I read the Old Testament through the new it takes sin and brokenness very very seriously so I'm emotionally heartbroken the way that you are but I don't think it surprised me in the sense that made me go there must not be a god now I'm not gonna pretend to lay out the depth of an intellectual argument when this is such an emotion filled thing but I do find something interesting in you know Uganda is 87 percent Christian and 11 percent Muslim there was no not know that there's an article in CBS News and the title was I wrote down the most heavily Christian countries in the world and Uganda was towards the top which made me think as Westerners we see suffering that's taking place and that rocks us and make us wonder where's God but the Ugandan people another eleven percent are Muslims see that suffering and actually believing in God and that he's personal is the most reasonable response to them hmm I want to know what the difference is and I think some of it is our expectations some of it is our understanding of God and the Scriptures and we've been sold a story in the West about Jesus wants you to have two kids and a picket fence and you can keep the evil and suffering out there that's not the biblical story I think there's a lot of people in Uganda in other parts of the world who see that suffering see that hurt that's their life and actually believing in God makes sense amidst the suffering and the pain hmm there's a friend of mine and I'm sure sure knows him as well Dominic Doan pastor up in Portland who's written a book very much detailing his own struggles with faith and and he tells the story of them sister Katherine I think her name is in Uganda and her own extraordinary experience of being in very similar situations to what you're describing there but the fact that she sees God through it and I I marvel at that because I I feel a bit like you we know so little in our Western culture of it's only when we we experience it and I spent some time in Africa as well and seeing some of the awful poverty that does exist and we're somehow insulated from it in the West aren't we and and yet as Shaun says I'm it's remarkable how within those situations people seem to be drawn towards God rather than thrust away from God in a strange way but ya know but what we think can I jump in here with one other thing if that's okay this is where I think a lot of things are coming full circle this is where I think ultimately an anchor is so important and I think of my dear friend Nabeel Qureshi I think it's been about two years maybe no his story not John worked with the Ravi Zacharias ministry he's former Muslim came to faith absolutely brilliant died somewhere in his lower mid 30s because of stomach cancer and the year up to his death he was releasing at least weekly videos and they're just powerful and I watched one video and he said you know I don't know why the suffering is taking place this causes my emotions to just go astray and question everything yo so let me take a step back and remind what I know and in this video he says I know they began in the universe points towards the beginner or supernatural cause I know the fine-tuning points towards a fine tuner the origin of life points towards an author of life the existence of consciousness point starts a conscious mind the existence of morality points towards a moral law the evidence for the Bible and Jesus in other words his emotions were so affected by himself suffering not just seeing it he's like I've got to remind myself what is true so watching somebody of his just prominence and brilliance go through that and bring it back to truth I thought man I don't want to give a simplistic intellectual answer I think you're right to raise that John but on the flip side when I face suffering I've got to learn to ground my emotions in what I know is true kind of like a compass so to speak I guess the the issue for you though John just to bring this back to to that moment you had was was that feeling of I'm a father and I know if I had the power to stop my children suffering I would do everything above and beyond and the ocean was why doesn't God well and and also like you know I you know to your point Sean about you know like talking about how this is a fallen world like I sort of back up from there and I go like well he made it and so like I'm not you know like if God created the universe and created you know existence you know you let's let's do an Avengers reference and you know he has the reality stone right he has the reality stone reality can be whatever he wants it to be and somehow if he's real if he's there he chose reality to be what it is and he chose if this world is broken he you know if he made it then he chose it to be this way and so somehow the the brokenness of the world if he is real the brokenness of the world falls back on his plate to me and and and and then I go back to the same question you and I have have have have agreed on this whole time is what is the most reasonable explanation and and I know we don't see you know the answer to that question the same right now but I I think that is the only honest way to approach the question and I think you're doing that and I really appreciate that I think that's very fair and I think you're exactly right that's the heart of the tension here in this conversation I guess I'd say a couple things one is we can only take the earthly father illustrations so far when we talk about God the Heavenly Father this is a language that helps us understand something true about God but it's only true insofar as it goes and I think when it comes to God being sovereign over all of creation it's different than my responsibility on a horizontal level to my kids as a father now we can take that a million different directions that's one distinction I would make you know another one your right to use the famous example the reality stone yes he does have the reality stone but even in the Avengers all that power is limited by the free choice of people within the universe none of those stones could make a reality any way because he could they can't control the way people think in the way they act otherwise he would have and Thanos would have won in the end so I know that you've talked about being aware of the freewill defense and it only takes us so far but it does fall back on God in one sense but we also have to say is it worth it for God to make a world in which we can love him and we can be in loving relationship with other people I don't think God can make a world like that with their genuine kin can be love without the option of people choosing not to do so it sounds like what you're just it sounds like what you're describing is heaven in heaven I mean so I mean maybe you've encountered this before but this is a thought I've mulled over and you may have a great answer for it and I welcome it but it seems to me that in heaven you know there will be no more sin so does that mean there's no free will in heaven and it seems to me that like why couldn't God just if God created us and wanted to be in relation ship with us and wanted there to be no sin no separation between us and him why not just create a world like heaven why even go through this the preliminary well God is omniscient he knows everything God is omnipotent he can do everything but there's certain things that even power itself can't do God cannot make a square circle it's impossible I'm not sure God could make a heavenly state and skip the in-between state to get there here's why because in heaven all the people who are there have chosen by their own free will to be in relationship with God and then when we get to heaven there's not only a choice to do this there's a full transformation of the Spirit of Christ in our character from the inside out and I would argue that we do have free will in heaven but just like you and I wouldn't take our kids to use a more good example over for you and like drop and go hey I wonder if they can bounce like I have the power to do that but there's absolutely nothing inside of me they would ever do that and neither would either of the two you because we understand how devastating that would be I think when we get to heaven we're aware of even the slightest small sin what we call how devastating it is to God and so we have clarity just like it says in Corinthians we see through a glass darkly so I don't think he could have just skipped this step on the inside if the goal is to be in relationship with people who want to be in relationship with him if he's going to make beans that actually can choose to love and choose not to love hmm that's that's interesting I hadn't heard that answer before and that's that's helpful I still I still feel like it's a bit of mental gymnastics that goes on to explain that you know like if if free will is necessary for a relation a real relationship with God and yet no sin in heaven does that mean that our free will is somehow suspended and how do we have a relationship with God that's meaningful at that point you your your answer does somewhat answer that it just it's a guest arsonist I mean come back we are running short of time here but sure I'm sorry but no no i-i've so appreciated the conversation I'd love to have all the time we could to to just chase down these these different issues I would love to chase down some of these issues and and it's been so good hearing hearing both of you I mean in in the end of receipt John them will start to wrap it up here you you you don't find yourself in the same position as Sean you you're on the same page when it comes to you've got to go with where the evidence leads that you've got to sort of what makes best sense where you are and what I've enjoyed about you actually in this this stage you're in John right now is you you seem very open to saying okay I'm open to being convinced I'm not you're not I sometimes me if I'm honest Christians who have rejected their faith and have almost swung in entirely the opposite direction where you could hardly ever imagine them being convinced again but it feels to me like you're saying I'm not in the same place you are Sean but I'm open to learning and what I exposed my final question to you John would be what if if you we saw a different Instagram blog for you from you in a previous time or something and maybe something had turned a corner and you put the pieces back together woven the sweater back back again some form what what what might that look like what would you think it might take for that to happen I have spent so much time thinking about that question because I I do feel dissatisfied with the idea that the physical world is all we have and I do feel like I expel like I experience moments in life where I feel like I'm touching the edge of something like ancient and like I'm a almost like holy is the only right word like that I have moments when I'm playing with my kids where I'm just like this moment matters you know I I walked into the Cathedral of Montmartre in in Paris and it felt like this place is special to be fair I also walked into the to a mosque in Abu Dhabi and felt a similar thing so I don't know what to do with those but I desire I want to know more about the infinite you know like and I want to believe in God I just don't know what that means yet I'm I'm thoroughly dissatisfied with with with nihilism and so so that's why I enjoy these conversations with both of you guys because Sean you have a perspective that that's different than mine and I feel like I've I've I've like made a mental note of half a dozen things that I want to go learn more about through this conversation and and that's what it has to be right like for any of us like I don't think anyone's faith is the destination I feel like it's a journey it's a process I don't you know just the same way that a doctor you they say that you practice medicine a lawyer you practice law I want to practice belief and and and hopefully find find that it takes me closer to to what is true and and and I feel like conversations like this are a part of that and so to reject it outright that's not an honest searching for truth that's an emotional reaction to hurt and that's what you see from when people come out and say that they no longer believe and if it's resentful and if it's bitter it's it's because they're hurt and and they're reacting out of that place and and I'm making an effort to to process it differently well I've really appreciated your honesty and openness and vulnerabilities as Shauna said as well John on today's show Sean any final thoughts as we close out today show yourself Oh thoroughly enjoyed this Thanks for your your honesty and vulnerability and questions and I've seen a number of people I've had conversations who leave the faith and are just angry and dismiss all of it so it's refreshing to see an openness that's there if I you didn't ask for this but if I just could humbly offer one word of encouragement for maybe anybody who resonates with your story I would encourage and it's not something you haven't thought of and it's something I think about my own life as well just in a different angle is to shed some of the false ideas of cultural Christianity that you and I have so grown up in and asked what is it that Jesus really really taught and what is the gospel and why is it that this person who lived has turned the world upside down more than anybody I mean it's amazing every religion wants a piece of Jesus New Age wants them Islam claims Buddha says is enlightened there's something about this person and when you grow up in the church you're experienced in mind we naturally like the air we breathe and the water we swim and imbibe certain things about Jesus and assume that it's true and so much my life is just reading the Gospels going oh my goodness how did I miss this what I've been told a B and C and this is different so I think you started this and I sensed that in your original post that you're like some of these things about cultural crocheted I separate myself from my encouragement would be to just keep going there and separate those things from what the message is that Jesus really taught guys thank you so much been such a great conversation really enjoyed it thank you very much oh there's gonna be links from today's show if you want to find out more about John and Shawn for the moment though thank you both for being with me and we'll see you next time for more conversations between Christians and skeptics subscribe to the unbelievable podcast and for more updates and bonus content sign up to the unbelievable newsletter you

Channel: Unbelievable?

Views: 342,792

Rating: 4.6256323 out of 5

Keywords: unbelievable, justin brierley, premier christian radio, christianity, atheism, philosophy, faith, theology, God, apologetics, Jesus, debate, jon steingard, sean mcdowell, hawk nelson, lose faith, apostasy

Id: _R9KGjxkz7E

Length: 87min 51sec (5271 seconds)

Published: Fri Jun 19 2020