Your Toughest Questions on Scripture and Same-Sex Unions

all right friends we are glad you're joining us because we are going to take your toughest questions on the scriptures the Bible and same-sex unions many of you join us will recognized that one week ago Dr Darren ballusic and I released a 3.5 hour in-depth teaching on everything not really everything but as close as we could get that the Bible has to say about uh same-sex Union's marriage and responded to a ton of revisionist arguments well today we're obviously here with you live and we have pulled out some of the top questions that many of you watching this left as comments below some really good and tough questions and uh we're gonna Dive Right In very quickly in case some of you joined us now and did not see that uh it's still live we hope you go watch it but my uh my guest today is Darren belusic he's written a book called marriage scripture and the church and to me it's the single best volume that takes a look at this that is up to date on the Bible and same-sex Union so Dr bluestick thanks for joining us you ready to go yeah let's have it all right so let's Dive Right In so the first question was why are they called clobber passages and this is a reference to like Genesis 1 and 2 Leviticus 18 Sodom and Gomorrah and Genesis 18 and 19 and a few New Testament passages like Romans 1 why are these called the clobber passages well that's yeah I I've heard them called that usually by those who would have a more uh say affirmative Viewpoint and uh wanting to sort of see room within scripture within the church for affirmation of same-sex unions um that's really where I've heard the expression come from and my guess is this is I've never asked somebody well why do you call them that but my guess is because of the way they're used and that that they're used to clobber people I think that's sort of or to to end the conversation end the debate and they're sort of sort of pulled out as if you will almost like clubs or weapons and or use them to beat you know we have the old expression I grew up with you know beat somebody over the head with the Bible right until they till they give in and agree with you or at least relent and say okay I give or whatever and I so it might come from the experiences some people have had of those text being confused that way in the church and and but and in that way abused um to sort of beat somebody into submission and and just to sort of repeatedly just throw those without engaging in any kind of conversation or any kind of discussion and just that that begins and ends the the whole the whole discussion um and and so that's unfortunate if some people have weaponized scripture that way and used it as kind of something as a cudgel that got beat somebody over the head was right that's not a good use of scripture even if you're even if it's the appropriate scripture to use and even if your intent is to speak the truth if someone receives it as being clobbered over the head uh there's probably speaking the truth in love was perhaps deficient in that in that instance um and but at the same time I think sometimes they're called clobber passages also as a rhetorical blunt um and others oh here come the clobber passenger someone says well let's look at Leviticus let's look at Romans 1 let's look at First Corinthians 6. and say oh here come the clobber passages as a rhetorical device in conversation or whatever to just blunt those from the start and as if there's something wrong with those texts and and that they don't really bear on the question or whatever they're just so I think it could you know come from an experience of the inappropriate uh use of scripture used in a kind of forceful way to somebody feels like they've been bludgeoned instead of loved and the truth is being spoken um but also turned around and then that because of that sometimes then used oh we have to keep those scriptures out of the discussion they're the clobber passages and if you bring them to Bear then you're doing so necessarily in a spirit in an unloving way in a way contrary to the Holy Spirit and so uh both both of those things are unfortunate because they get in the way of having uh some honest careful thoughtful discussion about what those texts are what they say why they say those things and so on I think it's really helpful I'm glad you brought in this balance I didn't know what you were going to say in terms of yes the clobber passages are used at times to unfortunately weaponize scripture in a way that's not loving and not gracious on the flip side that label is used to say if you're using these passages you are clobbering people and I've actually tried to engage people in genuine conversation like oh here you are use the copper pastures I'm like wait a minute that's actually a label to silence genuine conversation here so both of those are at play but I also think what's important is the the clobber passages are not Central to the case you made and I think scripturally we have to make we didn't really use any of those except Genesis 1 we're talking about it's not just six alleged passages that talk about same-sex unions it's marriage as a whole beginning middle and end that shapes the way we look at this so rather than getting caught on the clobber passages as importance As Romans 1 and say First Corinthians 6 is let's look at the whole scripture and if others want details go back to the original conversation you get three hours of that that was and that was one of the goals I had in writing the book was that these would take second place backseat as it were to the driver's seat of marriage and the Theology of marriage that is woven throughout scripture and that these would then play a secondary role in support um and but all that frame by the Theology of marriage and so my discussion of those is in the appendix as in appendices and and that supplement that's online that some of the viewers of the video have found uh and that's where my in-depth detailed discussions of those texts are um and I think that's where they that's where it belongs well let's jump into one that you and I may end up differing a little bit on I'm not sure we haven't fleshed this out this is a wonderful question you do talk about this in your book it basically says is it wrong for man and woman to get married and choose not to have children even though they physically can because either they simply don't want them for their own reasons or don't feel ready yet for a huge responsibility and burden would this make their marriage sinful and if it is indeed wrong should Christians not ready or willing to take any enormous responsibility of raising children avoid dating in marriage now there's a lot of layers to this question let me give some thoughts and then you jump in I would say if somebody is not really ready for marriage then they shouldn't date because dating is communicating to the other person that they're interested in them and potentially marrying so that would definitely apply to dating unless you completely clarify this and have a different kind of dating some platonic relationship that's the secondary issue here the heart of the issue issue is is it wrong for man or woman to get married and choose not to have kids now again we're not talking about those who physically can't we're not talented those I had a friend of mine who said he had a very good chance of a rare disease if he had kids he would pass it on that caused his death very early those are exceptions we're talking about a couple like somebody sitting in my class at Talbot said you know my my he was a guest in a class I was teaching he said my wife and I don't want to have kids we're too selfish what do you have to say with that and I said well I think maybe you've answered your own question by saying you're too selfish because having kids is selfless and it's a part of the nature of marriage so procreation is not the only purpose but it's one purpose of marriage now Catholics will say every sexual act needs to be open to procreation Protestants would tend to say a marriage as a whole has to be open to procreation we don't have to flesh out those differences now I think both of you and I would agree that our marriage should in principle be open to this so if you get married and say you don't want to have kids you're not living out one of the signs of marriage now one more thing Let me throw out there and then you comment on this the one exception that caught my attention that gave me pause or some friends of ours who said we can biologically have kids but we're going to choose not to because we want to foster kids and adopt yeah the only reason it gave me pause is because they're taking the spirit of what you might say is the procreative element of marriage but they're not having their own kids they're focusing on caring for kids who are already here so there's a party that says I hesitate to say that's wrong because it's such a selfless act but on the flip side I would still say why does it have to be either or why does it have to be one or the other marriage procreation is still a part of it your thoughts okay uh yeah so part of this gets down into sort of uh relates to how do you pastorally counsel couples that are thinking about or have already decided they're going to get married and they're preparing for marriage I think this should be part of the conversation because as you point out uh and I think as Christian tradition and if it's implicit within scripture it has maintained that you know brokeration is integral to God's purpose for marriage and and then of course then there's lots of questions that flow out of that connected with that which is pointed out we don't have to try to sort out right this moment um so and I think there's a difference between being dead set against having kids you know and saying I'm not sure or I'm not ready I don't know am I ready was I ready to become a parent I think it'd be that at age 40. all right you can you can the viewers can see I'm I'm a few years older than you and but your kids are probably your kids are older than mine or at least some of your kids are and um yeah I got married at age 36 or almost 36 and then our our son was born uh I just turned 40. and uh so was I ready at that point are you ready um sure okay was I ready we were we were seven months pregnant and he came two months early and wow was I ready no wow okay so there's a sense of Myra I don't know and you know there's that sense of okay and then you have kids like okay we're in this right we're doing this yep so I think those hesitations those uncertainties those should be welcomed and say Express them and so on it's when there's a Resolute resistance in saying no and no to the no to this gift of life that God has designed marriage to bring forth as I've talked about your marriage is this new thing this one flesh Union is a new thing God does in creation after creating the man and woman male and female does a new thing and joining them together is one flesh and it's designed with the purpose of itself bringing forth a new thing in New Life and if you're not open to that if you Resolute against that then you really are Resolute against what God has designed marriage for one of the things God has designed marriage for and and I think that's sort of indicative of a failure to appreciate that there are larger purposes than just the happiness of two people or even the good that two people do together for other people it is a larger purpose of God's Plan of Salvation that is in view here and when couples are counseled about marriage I think that should be presented to them and ask are you living into this is this how you see your marriage how you see what marriage is and what you intend your marriage should be as part of that now a couple could go into marriage and be reluctant and so with I'm not sure when we when if when and and but if they're not as long as they're not deliberately trying to perpetually habitually frustrate the procreative potential of their you their sexual Union yeah then one might say okay they're not fully necessarily leaning into that purpose of marriage but it's also not dead set against it and and actively persistently perpetually frustrating that purpose um then I think there's room there of course for the church to nurture a spirit of course of course towards that towards us towards that and hopefully there are good examples of families of couples and parents and children and other things to encourage that and nurture that in in young and newly married recently married couples that as far as the other the case you talked about or someone uh you know like I my wife and I know a couple who really wanted to have children but she has a heart condition and which would if she tried to carry a pregnancy through could well likely result in her death in the in the baby's death so they instead of turned to fostering they've done some fostering and so on and look towards adopting and through fostering and so on and I think that's a beautiful you know that's a disappointing and um thing for them of course uh and and then they've turned that openness to children and that openness to a family and to welcoming people in they're very hospitable gracious people and and in that way like you I'm I kind of puzzle and think about why make it an either or right we're not going to do this we're not going to have children of our own we're just going to adopt and Foster whatever and like well why why make that one or the other um and and really kind of even though that's yes that's a gracious hospitable thing and maybe it's also something that all Christian families should consider that's true adoption as a very powerful image of Salvation right that Paul uses and that a symbol of that through marriage you perhaps should all be considering fostering or adopting children uh as a sign of that um as well as meeting real human needs uh that are there but substituting one for the other I questioned I would question that as well that seems to me good wanting to substitute one purpose Hospitality graciousness meeting Community needs for another purpose in marriage and I think certainly Christian tradition and reflection on that going back to Saint Augustine calls that into question right that kind of move I think that's a good pastoral and logically consistent response that lines up with the purpose of marriage we see from the beginning to the end so I am I'm with you on that that's that's great let's take one that might be a little bit uh quicker by the way those just joining us I'm here with Dr Darren ballusic author of marriage scripture and the church uh he's a professor in Ohio and we just did a 3.5 hour in-depth teaching on the Bible and same-sex unions last week now we picked out some of the top comments and are given our thoughts to him so let's take this one somebody said how many minutes do you need to say the Bible does not condone same-sex unions anywhere whatsoever at all hmm done end of video now I kind of understand the sentiment because that took 30 31 seconds that's actually funny to judge that literally um obviously I think the Bible is reasonably or even more than reasonably clear about God's design for marriage but we gotta realize the culture's 2000 years removed written in a different language there's different genres and there's a ton of revisionist arguments that are coming into play here so we have to unpack it a lot because it's just not that simple given the amount of baggage we all bring culturally morally experientially to the text would you add anything or does that capture oh yeah well there's there's that much about it sort of just I mean this relates to implicitly to the first question we dealt with these are the clobber passages I assume that this question is thinking about that there are specific patches is passages that in their plain sense at least as they seem to us to many people throughout Christian tradition clearly condemn in some sense same-sex relationship same-sex intercourse and therefore there's no and then there's no positive anything in Scripture that very explicitly positively affirms same-sex Union and so you sort of and that took me you know 27 seconds right so what more is there to say about it than that well but there's still lots of questions we're going to come to one later um about this meaning of particular terms that we have to do some homework on for one but also I think this question um you know even though the scripture doesn't condone it some of these revisionist interpretations as well as discussions about meaning of specific terms opens up questions and in some people's minds leaves possibilities open that while there might be some Avenue some Channel through which we could then yes see scripture allowing an affirmation of same-sex Union or even see the work of the holy spirit in the church in this generation as opening some new possibility I have a a I have a pastor friend and uh he he also very graciously uh read the entire manuscript uh who he takes an affirming Viewpoint and um and this is the kind of uh Viewpoint he takes is like though the holy spirit's doing something new in the church we have a new teaching a new revelation that's happening that goes beyond scripture and so you can't just sort of say scripture in answering and responding to that you can just sort of say well scripture doesn't anymore say yes to this and some places very much plainly seems to say no uh because they say well but the Holy Spirit might take us Beyond scripture Beyond just what is provided for in scripture and open up new possibilities and Jesus himself said the Holy Spirit would lead you into all truth yes so we have to spend time with that kind of argument also I do that in the left later chapters of the book and but then think carefully with Jesus and the apostles about the work of the holy spirit in the church how that relationship Jesus teaching that relates to the apostles witness to Jesus and so on to very carefully consider that and again I think that argument does fall short once you do that but I think just saying while scripture says no or nowhere says and nowhere it gives any hint of yes is not a complete response is is inadequate uh way and and not only that then leaves those who would pull hold a Biblical traditional view about sex and marriage not talking about marriage right right I see this question as an opportunity for the church to really engage substantively uh with uh the biblical vision of marriage and how that fits in with our Theology of Salvation and discipleship and other very important Central things to Christianity well you've done that in your book which I appreciate a ton by the way when I know someone of side issue but somebody says the holy spirit is leading us into new territories when the scripture says the holy spirit will teach you all things I think the context of that and John he's speaking to the disciples not to all believers but second it's one thing for the Holy Spirit to expand upon a truth that was hidden it's another thing to teach something that contradicts directly exactly teaching rooting creation so that's a separate issue but John is assuming that very least in saying this uh I think the assumption is that when John relates this teaching of Jesus to his disciples the holy spirit is going to remind you of all that I have taught you yes I'm trying to Lead You In The Same Direction that's right and clarify these things to you and bring them to remembrance that there's got to be a consistency and he is sick about it from a point of view of trinitarian Theology and the economy of Salvation God's whole Plan of Salvation through Israel and Christ and the spirit that this all has to be consistent that what the holy spirit is going to teach them has to uh be consistent what Jesus has taught and so I think there there are implicit constraints on yes uh when this is when Jesus is saying this to his disciples so let's take one that's gotten a lot of press right now because there's conversation where people would say the word homosexual is based on a bad translation into an earlier English translation and it should never have been homosexual in our new testament uh to begin with but this takes us back as the question said what would you say is a correct understanding of the etymology and definition of arsena coitai which is what Paul uses when talking about same-sex behavior for example in First Corinthians chapter 6. it says what response you have the argument that the word has been mistranslated to mean homosexuals now I'm letting you jump in and talk about the scholarship where this stands but two things I want to say number one is your case which is a very similar case to what I make doesn't depend upon the translation of this word at all we're talking about God's design for marriage throughout all of scripture which is consistently meant to be a male female permanent Union we don't need the clobber passages and translation of arsenicoitai to refer to same-sex sexual behavior to rule out same-sex unions in terms of not being consistent with God's design for marriage so in some way case in a larger case of scripture it's an important but secondary issue second I spent a whole hour in this if somebody's watching I interview press the sprinkle and we went into detail on an earlier video a few months ago if you just search has homosexual always been in the Bible as homosexual at least been in the Bible you'll see us go into some serious depth on this but with that said give us kind of the the quicker response to what scholarship shows about how we should translate this word yeah so one uh yeah so first of all yes if you look at English translations of this word this is in First Corinthians 6 9 and also First Timothy 1 9 and 10 somewhere right from there um and it appears in two viceless whether Scholars called Vice lists there's lists of people whose habitual conduct uh by their own choice Cuts them off from the kingdom of God um Paul says everything those it gives a long list of people who habitually persistently unrepently practice certain things will not inherit the kingdom of God and that list starts off I think with idolaters and then goes to adulterers and fornicators um promiscuous uh sexual conduct and then finally um and then you get this arsena koi Tai and and so and when you get to that when you look at English translations they'll be fairly consistent on those first three terms and on the terms to follow that you will see wide variation on what what to put in for this term and I just did a quick check of the NIV and nrsv the nrsv has and what follows right after that is is Malachi which is another term that has received a lot of discussion and they have the nrsv as I recall which is the translation I use as my first go-to I was raised on the King James version and the NRC part of that translation tradition yeah the most recent version and so that's what I usually start with um but it's terrible on on this but I mean it has uh it has a male prostitutes and sodomites as the translation of those two terms and that's probably far wrong on both of those and uh of course I don't know if that'll ever get changed um the NIV the current NIV is closer and better it has men who have sex with men and that's kind of just the way I give the a certain location just to spell it out what it says I I don't know about a single word to use to try to translate this because it's already a compound word in Greek and so trying to find one word to use is probably not going to work except a transliteral male Bettors kind of thing because it literally the etymology is males uh in bed and and of course bed there as a metaphor of having sexual relations which is we've used that sleeping with going to bed with but we've used that kind of an English and current culture we know what that means um so uh so there's so you can check different translations and look but even the NIV men who have sex with men is not quite accurate our sen are saying in Greek is males uh the men is on air um and they're two different words and they have they kind of overlap but they not synonymous uh an air is a male adult an adult male and is often used as a substitute for husband you know they didn't have separate words Hebrew and Greek for husband and wife it would be your man the man who belongs to you that's your husband you're a woman or your woman the woman who belongs in to you um exclusively of all others right so that was how it could be husband and wife so that's on air that's male this is um our sen our sane which is male of any age of any sort it's just quite generic it's the same same word that's used in the Greek translation of Genesis 1 27 28 let us make male into male it's also what's used in Leviticus 18. the males having in the Greek translation to Septuagint and then it's what Paul uses in Romans 1 uh there in 26 28 where he's talking about women females exchanging the natural for unnatural and males exchanging natural form and having sexual relations with each other it's the same term males males males males right or females and so it's speaking there about sex not about an age not about a status a marital status or anything like this but it's speaking specifically about bodily sex male or female and so I think that is and I think that gives us uh the Clues here um now there's still debate about sort of well where does this word come from what are the discussions we have no idea there are no uses to it in extant literature prior to Paul in First Corinthians 6. and it's possible Paul coined this term but it was at least of a recent vintage it couldn't have been around for centuries um circulating around say Hellenistic Jewish communities use of this term it might have had maybe a generation but there's no record of it and Paul's is the first we've got but it has to be a fairly recent term so it's not one that would be as common as the previous terms of idolaters and adulterers everybody knew exactly what that meant everybody knew what that was talking about in this Vice list so when Paul gets to this term in and and it appears it's very fairly new or Paul himself is coining it when he puts those two words together that compound word um Nails in bed um then you're uh it's the the obvious meaning from his etymology which seem males in bed with each other males having sex with males now some have challenged this uh to say oh you can't interpret ancient words by their etymology that gets you into all kinds of pitfalls and you can provide easy examples the word understand does not mean that you're standing under something right right okay we can come up with these but in a coined term a term that was not common a term that was introduced I think in a letter you have to understand the oral culture here Paul intended these letters to be read aloud to the congregation you find evidence about the end of Colossians where it talks about read this letter and then I think so if you have the Colossians then exchange with the community the church at laodicea I sent them a letter we don't have that letter from Paul it says exchange those letters so you can read their letter too the letter I sent them and they can read this one so you have to understand that people who would be hearing this in a congregation would be hearing this read aloud and they're not seeing it written out they will many of them would be illiterate anyway and they would need to understand the term on its own and so the etymology and that kind of context of use that cultural context abuse it would seemed the etymology really would matter people would hear it and would get it right from oh yes we get it we get the picture we see males in bed with each other by the way that's right what the word conveys um and then I think the third thing to consider is where did Paul get this from did Paul just make it up no he probably got it from Leviticus 18 and 20. so you go back to those and you look at the Greek text of those Texas say you know um males shall not you know lie uh with other males as with women that kind of thing and then in chapter 20 Leviticus 20 it assesses the penalty for that those words are there and I think it's in Leviticus 20 where they appear right next to each other in the text right and it seems that what's happened and of course in the Greek text of the time those words would have just been pushed right up there were no spaces between words you just have to know what the words are and where the breaks were and so you would have seen those things push right up to get in a in a manuscript and that probably Paul has taken that and just coined a compound word from what was there in the safety region that's probably what's happened there in which case what Paul is doing in that Vice he's referring to those people who habitually perpetually unrepentably violate that that Prohibition in Leviticus against males uh having sex with males I think that's the most compelling uh argument about what this word is where it comes from what it means there are and I don't want to venture off into what other kinds of arguments that have been used to try to steer this in another Direction and give some other kind of spin or whatever to this um and take more time with that but I think that's probably um in my in my estimation that's the most compelling case for understanding that term I appreciate it this is not a matter of certainty it's a question is what is the most probable given the language given Leviticus 18 given the vice list you put the pieces together and it's multiple Clues it's multiple strands that's right evidence and and thinking through this the etymology of it the context in which people would have had to understand it by hearing the word yep uh an unfamiliar term and then probably where Paul gets it from and you can trust lots of things in those First Corinthians 5 and 6 back to the Torah back to Leviticus and Deuteronomy especially where he's pulling things from and that's probably where he's pulling from so I think all those things added together makes a pretty strong case but it's not something we can be absolutely certain about those you just join us I'm here with Dr Darren belusic again author of marriage scripture in the church we just did a three and a half hour teaching last week on same-sex unions and respond to the toughest questions if we get towards the end I have time we'd love to take a few questions that you're writing into some comments I've seen some great comments including people that think I have purple hair because the light behind me but I digress uh we have somebody my hair is gray by the way this is not coloring this is natural color here gray hair all right well we'll take your word on that we got questions coming up on intersex on Matthew 19 on slavery but first let's take a minute a practical question comes up all the time it says this it says are we condoning same-sex unions if we attend one would it be similar to attending a non-Christian wedding between a heterosexual couple now the latter one would go into a same-sex Union be similar to attending a non-Christian wedding between a heterosexual couple the answer would be absolutely no because a heterosexual couple male female can and do get married consistently with God's design they might reject the Transcendent purpose of marriage but they're following natural law as revealed in nature in our bodies and committing to an institution that is good so that's a dis analogous kind of question when it comes to attending a same-sex wedding here's my take and then you might might see it differently I think there's some issues that for bible-believing Christians are out if you get a marriage certificate of somebody of the same sex you are being disobedient to what scripture says and I say this with no animus and full awareness of my own Disobedience and times that I fall short over and over again but as we talk about same-sex unions that is out of line I think scripture is very clear there's other ones that are not quite as clear like going to a same-sex wedding now I have had people I was sitting on a panel with a man who's in a gay relationship a woman who's in a lesbian relationship they ended those and got married to each other and this question came up and the lady said when she was marrying a woman her mom came who's a Christian sat in the front cried the entire time because she was so heartbroken at this but her she knew exactly where her mom stood but her mom's presence spoke words to her and ultimately brought her back another man who was in a relationship like that he said his parents refused to go and he knew how deeply they loved him that grieved him so much that brought him back to biblical view now we can't root this argument ultimately in experience I know that's a dangerous thing but I personally I can tell you I would not go to a same-sex wedding uh because I think of the nature of what a wedding is the nature of what a marriage is and what I want to accumulate communicate to my kids and to others so I would have a hard time on my conscience going uh the only thing that would give me pause if my wife was like honey we need to go and I had a couple tell me that he said in his conscience he couldn't his wife wanted him to go I mean you just see how sticky these issues become so I can only speak for myself in this regard it would have a profoundly hard time sitting there as a participant blessing a union that I think directly goes against God's design not just for Christians but also for non-christians your thoughts yeah uh thanks for those thoughts especially sharing your experiences like wow so if you could see it from both sides here um I've not personally faced this uh question at least not yet we've had friends my wife and I who have entered uh same-sex uh unions have gotten have gotten married uh at least they've had marriage celebrations right everybody and so on but we've not yet received an invitation to one of those who've got a basically or don't we I think a crucial question um at least we're thinking about part of this is about you know it's about blessing it's also about witness um if this was taking place in a church with the uh assumption presumption this is a Christian and christ-shaped Christ blessed um uh marriage that's happening here the I I certainly would not go um I thought let me let me also tell you another kind of situation I would not go to um a situation that occurred in a congregation that I once was once I once was a member and I but the situation happened before I joined the congregation I learned about it afterwards and I was totally scandalized um that so and so and so and so I used to be married they're still in the congregation they sit part once it's in the back row the wife who's no longer married he won a divorce she finally relied it gave in and then he wanted to marry someone else and I don't know if she was in the congregation or someone else but they got married in the country the congregation gave its blessing wow I am totally gobsmacked by that knowing this congregation I'm totally scandalized when I thought and I still cannot wrap my mind why would you say yes to this I could not in conscience go to that wedding either that would be adulterous and I don't think the church would be blessing adultery and I and something that wow did he just say that yes he did it's in the book um so it's already out there but um and so I um so there are other situations where if this is happening at church I would say no because of the church dishonoring its own understanding of marriage and dishonoring what God has indeed designed and ordained and what Jesus Christ gave his gave his Blessing to and what he taught um it's on I don't as Disciples of Jesus I don't know how we could go against that um so the only possibility would be something happening outside the church is not going to be a Christian wedding and of course I couldn't go into that any more than you could thinking okay we're blessing an actual marriage here or this is an actual marriage happening no it's not yes um I think there's a connection between sometimes what's called natural and sacramental marriage marriage that's part of the order of creation and I think God prepared that to be completed by the grace of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit to have its full meaning and full significance and so these two have to be compatible with each other um and and that's uh and so I couldn't uh go into that if I were thinking well hey we're blessing a marriage it's not a Christian marriage but it's a marriage right no I couldn't do that it would have to be something along the lines of what your friends have shared about that this person means a whole lot to me this person was my child and and there's just I you know uh and to say look I love you and I'll express that to you by being present to you or this or some other person it would have to have that kind of sense to it and even then I would have questions in my mind about Whitney sure what am I because marriage is a testimony to God even if that marriage isn't happening in the church even if that's not being blessed again a Christian setting um or it could be in a Jewish setting you know it could be and it's still a testimony to the God who created us and loved us into being and created us in a certain way and and ordained a marriage to be a certain thing and to have a certain purpose um there's a testimony to who God is involved in every marriage um and in marriage itself as a as an institution if you will of God and so I'd have to sort of think about what am I testifying to God that's right testifying about God and what am I bearing witness to other people who of course see me there um and and I think those are the kinds of questions I would be wrestling with in my mind and they don't have that all worked out in final answers for all situations or whatever but I think those are the I'd have to think about if that question consistently um with the Theology of marriage that I think scripture has woven through scripture in his and his kids developed uh in Christian tradition I've said this a few times in your book it's very clear you want to be gracious you want to be loving but be scriptural and it's not always simple what that looks like but I appreciate that you're trying to stay faithful to that that's what I aim to do and I encourage my viewers to do as well let's jump to one that's a Biblical one uh it says I I reworded it just for those who are watching it trying to capture the heart of it hopefully I did so Faithfully uh what about Unix and Matthew 19 if some were born that way could the logic imply that some people are born gay and not meant for heterosexual marriage well let me make one distinction here and then you can you can jump in Darren is that there's a big difference between somebody being born a eunuch because of some physical abnormality whatever that cause may be and incapable of impregnating a woman born with a purely physical limitation that's taken place we know that has a biological basis to it when it comes to question of same-sex attraction the APA acknowledges we don't know what the cause is or could be or causes in fact we're off often told it's probably some kind of combination of Nature and nurture so right away there's a dis analogy between an this analogy between a purely physical limitation one who's a eunuch and sexual orientation which may have some of a physical base but also has a psychological component at the heart of it so there's just a this analogy here and I think people read in things about Unix being sexual minorities and then expand that definition to the lgbtqia in a way that I think is reading into the text and not faithful to what it says I know you wrote in this in your book but some of your thoughts about the eunuchs in Matthew 19 and what applies for same-sex genius so Jesus talks about there after his teaching on marriage in response to the divorce questions from the Pharisees um he you know the disciples are uh then trying to Grapple with the significance of him saying you know let what God has joined together let no one put asunder and the one who divorces his wife and this is of course thinking about men putting away their wives and divorce and going off to marry someone else except she says tour you know for sexual immorality this is adultery this comes you can't get around the law of adultery by using a certificate of divorce and then marrying someone else this wasn't adultery I'm in keeping with the Commandment so they're responding to this as a puzzling and then Jesus says yeah this is a hard teaching and it's just okay well then he brings in well there are some who are born eunuchs some who are made eunuchs by others and then some who uh make themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of God um and we usually understand the last one is about someone not someone who physically Mars the genitalia right you know from Christian tradition that origin of Alexandria in the yeah the third Century to our second century did this to himself um this is not recommended that's not what Jesus meant but as many as people who who forego marriage right who and and that's the sense of the eunuch here it was someone who is not capable of either uniting sexually um with a woman or maybe is able to but not able to produce Offspring so it could be if someone's been castrated and maybe they can still unite sexual but there's not going to be any Offspring from that Union and that's that of course is what Jesus is talking about those who have been made Unix by others and so this is a well-known phenomenon in the Imperial parts of the ancient near East um those who have access to the inner courts and hence potentially had uh on illegitimate but access possibly to the queen or to the Harem to the king's Harem have to make sure that they could not sire illegitimate Offspring by those who uh their team only had a right to have sex with right so they were made eunuchs um and uh it's already been cast they were castrated so they could not produce offspring and I think we have to look at the those are foreign units in the similar in a similar sense that that's what was being talked about it was a physical impairment impediment of some kind uh and it doesn't have to be a very specific oh it's specifically this or this this could be covered a white a range of possible things where someone then is not able to unite sexually with a woman a man is a male is not able to not sexually as a woman and or is not able to produce austrians in that section so that they cannot then in that sense produce you know families all right so I think that's what Jesus is talking about there he's talking about probably almost assuredly a physical condition a psychological orientation of sexual attraction this was not part of the of the of the mindset not part of the language and so on there are in in some Greek and Roman sources there are some things you can find that are there's sort of counterparts to that they're the sense of the people who have different natural inclinations or proclivities or whatever you do find some of that in Greco-Roman philosophical literature uh to doctors you know the Physicians writing about these sorts of things but this was a common parlance and so when Jesus is speaking this to his disciples here again you have to think about the disciples need to understand exactly what Jesus is referring to they can't be needing to go puzzle like what does that mean better go Google it I don't know let's do some research now they understand immediately what he's talking about who's they understand this is a physical condition and so to work from that to try to generalize this to other kinds of things but we'd have to you know there's questions of whether we should do that or not but it would have to be limited to talking about a physical condition um and something that would have been recognized by um at the time without knowing anything about genetics uh as we know them through chromosomal genetics and molecular genetics and all that wouldn't have to involve any of that but just visible Anatomy um and or physiological function that anyone could know that that's what it would have involved and so I think I think we kind of should just leave it there in terms of what Jesus was talking about I think that's sufficient to show there's a dis analogy between Unix and the lgbtq identities of today and that teaching does not apply to same-sex unions in the way it's often taken to I think that's a sufficient response let's take this one that comes up pretty much every time I speak on this the question says God doesn't make mistakes and only created man and woman how come there are intersex now let me say a couple things it's true God doesn't make mistakes but he did make a world in which he gave human beings free choices and our choices have effects not only on our souls but on our bodies and Romans 8 says on creation so if we look out in creation and see things that don't fit the typical pattern or things seem to be broken it's not that God made a mistake God knows the beginning from the end Jesus was the lamb crucified before the foundation of the world but he built Free Will and human Choice into creation and what comes with that is certain things that are broken so we can't talk about this issue or others without bringing in uh original sin now some on the outside might say take issue of this but remember our topic today is the Bible and same-sex unions we are Christians trying to be faithful to the text and we are taught that when Adam and Eve sinned it rocked creation it affects everything including our bodies so it was Preston sprinkle he said to me he said if you apply the question of original sin the issue of original sin to biological sex what might it look like that's at least a fair question to ask now I'm certainly unmistakably not saying intersex people are mistakes if anybody hears me saying that they are absolutely reading something in uncharitably that I'm not saying when I talk in this I know you do too as well Darren people with an intersex condition are made in the image of God and are valuable precious human beings and based on my conversations and research I mourn for many people with an intersex condition that have difficulties at time navigating relationships navigating the way they live their lives in ways that I don't have and you don't have daily so we must approach this with compassion and understanding and with an open heart now with that said let me make a definition of this give a couple thoughts and you jump in and say what you think what we mean by intersex is people who are born where their sexual anatomy and or chromosomes develop in an atypical fashion that's what we mean by intersex now what's interesting about this impressive sprinkle documents all this in his recent book embodied 99 of people with an intersex condition are clearly male or female so a small percentage of human beings have an intersex condition and a small percentage of those one or less have a condition in which the biological sex is ambiguous or there are characteristics that are both male and female now what doesn't follow is because there's a few precious individuals who have an intersex condition that all of a sudden biological sex is entirely on a spectrum that is a huge logical leap that doesn't follow what it does show is there are some individuals with male and female characteristics that we refer to as intersex but it doesn't follow at all that there's no such thing as biological sex and that males and females do not exist in a binary your thoughts okay yeah so I don't do much with the topic of intersex directly in the book okay because it's not the focus and that's true as well studied as others and so forth on this the way it enters into my book is because uh there's an Evangelical Theologian um who has tried to use the eunuch passage that we were just talking about as a way to extend uh make a case for same-sex unions saying that when Jesus talked about those who are born eunuchs he's talking about those who were intersex now that's way too specific and way too confident uh a gloss on what Jesus says there that could well have been involved some people who did have you know intersex conditions that prevented them from you know is that what they were called Unix maybe that's possible um but why we really just don't know that and there's really not much more you can I think that you can really do to try to extract out of that text message they respect to intersex um I think the first thing again to say which you emphasized is that the fall does not negate the creation okay thank God right amen and so are being created in the image of God is not in any way marred by the creation it doesn't negate it doesn't undo that it doesn't and so forth and there's you know Christian theologians down the centuries of traditionally think well what happens to the image of God it's not erased it's not negated it's not removed but um and so we don't have to go very far with that but recognizing that yes uh we we're all in the sense that same boat or Fallen condition and yet we are still all creating the image of God and we need to hold both of those together and not and not neglect one for the other um and I think with regard to with regard to sort of with intersex uh you know I I guess I would approach this with a a Viewpoint that indeed is about well we well know that biological abnormalities occur um in a variety of ways some of them link to genetics some of them linked to [Music] um there's various kinds of hormonal processes that get interrupted during um during embryonic development and Fetal development and so forth can be caused by chemical things and so forth and people are you know there's history sometimes it's been medications like people have been put on while they're while women are pregnant and and it produces all kinds uh sometimes it's residuals of Agent Orange in Vietnam and so on is still producing Generations later uh significant physical abnormalities and disabilities in children born there and so we recognize this is that and I think of all of this as sort of this is this is indeed part of our fallen creation that we see this kind of thing happening and it is something to um something indeed to uh be compassionate about and so on it's not uh and so on and so I and so I I believe I put it in that kind of context in the way what Paul and Romans 8 talks about the creation was subjected to futility by sin um and and and there are ways in which your creation just produces death or it should have produced life um and it and in which it doesn't bring forth what God and had intended from the beginning and yet God is at work through Christ in all creation to bring about Redemption and Redemption even of our bodies so I would put all of this in that kind of that's good that kind of framework of sort of a Theology of the Body um and consider it within that um and in in that sense then these kinds of these kinds of things which we're well aware of which Saint Augustine was aware of and city of God he talks about people who are born with both male and female this was a known phenomenon um and he said you know no these are not God's mistakes God didn't you know put one batch in and leave the temperature on too high bake some gingerbread people and oh if they got burnt and there's a mistaken batch and that's nor are they children of a Lesser God that's been a kind of thing well you know that somehow some other Lesser God made those people and screwed up no those are not options on Christian theology point of view of Christian theology they're just not options for us to go to instead we have to sort of think about the futility of creation caused by the Fall um and put put that in that context um I think okay good good for you I've seen some great questions coming up here in the comments on the side let's let's do one or two more of the ones that we had from earlier and then take a handful if that's okay because there's some really thoughtful questions coming through there's one I want to address there's a comment that said we in the gay community really appreciate that you Sean feel that we are worthy of being talked about so much and of course there's a sarcasm behind that and I I just want to say the very first time I publicly spoke on this issue that I remember with any depth was in 2014 when I wrote the book same-sex marriage with John Stone Street and I could see the writing on the wall and it came the next year in 2015 that same-sex marriage became legal partly the reason I spoke on this actually with fear and trembling with a lot of counsel with a lot of hesitancy because on this topic people get hurt no matter what you say and I wanted to bring a voice that said I'm a Christian I'm not going to apologize for what Jesus taught believed about marriage and what the scripture says but I'd also like to hopefully lead with a kindness and a generosity towards people who see this issue differently it's been polarized it's been politicized and so I just felt the need that maybe God had wired me uniquely I could speak into this issue hopefully with compassion Grace and kindness that's what I've aimed to do now interestingly with that said one of the narratives of the lgbtq community is often that they're a marginalized community and don't have a voice well whether that's true or not is not my point here but what I do find is there are certain conservative people who politically are religious who go against the wider cultural narrative and they actually don't get a voice so people who have detransitioned will not be interviewed on CNN they will not be talked about on MSNBC uh people who I've interviewed on my channel who would have defined themselves in the lgbtq Spectrum become Believers and understand themselves very differently so believe it or not I've actually used the platform God has given me to try to give a voice to people who don't typically have a voice thus I've spoken on this issue a lot so that's a little bit behind it for those who are concerned now let's move to another one for you um there and it says this the question was and then let's do this one we'll take a few live ones and then we'll end with the one that I know you want to make sure we addressed about the plausibility argument uh the Bible also says slavery is fine and that a slave should not seek Freedom so I guess the implication is if the Bible's against same-sex unions well it's also against slavery so it's against slavery I'm sorry if it's in favor of slavery then the Bible is not the kind of moral Authority we should listen to when it comes to same-sex unions and one thing I would add we talked about this in our longer teaching is there's a different trajectory from the Old Testament where God allows a kind of slavery which was very different than the American British experiment of slavery uses unenslaved people is the first people group in the history of the world to start building in some human rights and ultimate in the New Testament lay the seeds for it to be totally overturned so abolition was led by a Christian Movement and cause you see a trajectory historically and theologically and biblically that way when it comes to same-sex relationships William Webb points out the opposite that actually if anything Jesus gets more concerted if the New Testament Ephesians 5 Romans 1 Matthew 19 points back to the creation account and we don't see a similar trajectory so I think the analogy between slavery and between same-sex unions is mistaken on many levels but at least on that one any thoughts you want to add yeah I mean yeah I think I hear two different distinct questions possibly being posed by that by that comment question that you cited and one might be the kind of question you're just addressing about sort of the Herminator question well the Bible seems to approve slavery we in the church finally in the 19th century of that 20th century said absolutely not you know and and so if we've changed our mind about what the Bible means and how to read the Bible about that why not the same thing with regard to same-sex unions um and the Bible says no to that why can't we now say yes read things differently and now say yes whereas your Savory the Bible says seems to say yes yes yes and we've reread it to say no so what can't we just sort of flip that around and so that's a herminated question and I think what you've said is is is kind of on the right track there's quite different uh uh it's quite a different question when you sort of set it up carefully and I I've done that you know extensively in the book you did this from one angle to try to point that out and others William Webb and uh and yeah and Willard swartley and Richard Hayes um but now there's another question though that I heard so well but there is some allowance there's a an explicit allowance there for slavery of a kind he said um there in scripture doesn't that just undermine the Bible as a moral Authority um you know forget the hermeneutics how can you take as a guide a moral guide any text that would give any kind of allowance to slavery um and I and I think that's a I think that's a I mean that's not disconnected from the harmonic question because it kind of pushes us to say well we have to how do we read the Bible how do we discern its moral message um and I think that's a that's a much larger question um and I think it I think Christians would be would do well we would be we've become really used to this kind of thing in the church that we sort of look past it it becomes transparent to us and sometimes the Bible needs to become kind of opaque a little bit a little resistant to our assumed ways of reading it and knowing what to put in context and where to place things in and I would say one of the most important things and one of the things I deal with in a long appendix in the supplement the second one on because you don't have to look at slavery just look at marriage there's all kinds of things around sex and marriage in the Bible that really don't look good um and if it and if we understand the Bible as giving approval to these things um then then boy it it is destroyed as a moral Authority um if uh if uh you know maybe we could go into many examples of these different things but I think it's important to how we read scripture indeed we have to look at this tension that threads through between God's intention from the beginning in creation and diverse kinds of Fallen human practices that have emerged uh from sin uh including slavery is one of them and there's also you know uh a kind of uh polygamy and a kind of sure Cherokee in which men oppress women you know and so on um that emerge and so we have to put those though in perspective in the biblical story what's before the fall what's after the fall how does the what's which you see on the other side of the Fall a corrupted version a perversion really of what God intended from the beginning and we have to disentangle those and see those separately but they're and but God's intent is to restore that and and you can see clearly with the prophets uh with the law beginning with the law first of all and then with the prophets and then with Jesus um uh this this um persistent God's persistent plan to put things right and to um and to restore what God had intended and so I think that's whether slavery or some other foreign that's that's great let's as we get towards the end Let's uh let's take some questions and kind of give a little bit more of our shotgun quicker responses and get through a few just for sake of time um and let me throw one on here if you're if you're listening to this and you have questions please restate them I saw some earlier I don't know if I'll probably will Trail back and find them restate him at the end as quickly as you can here's one from Michael Keane that I think is very helpful it says there's much talked about the need for the church to show compassion to the lgbtq community many assume to agree this is important how are we practically expressing this compassion well I would say there is a lot of area where we need to do better at this I can just speak for myself I have a number of friends who describe themselves as Christians some who not describe themselves as Christians in the lgbtq community I don't ask them for coffee to go preach at them I ask them for coffee because I want to get to know them want to hear their stories I want to hopefully treat them with the kindness that I hope I would treat anybody and just love my neighbor so one of my biggest encouragements is we look at the example of Jesus in Mark 2 is that he was dining with Sinners and my point is not that those in the lgbtq community are unique Sinners that the rest of us are not that's not my point but he dined outside of his group and loved people and listened to people and considered them friends on a social level I would love to see Christians do that more second thing I do is I I the way I speak I fall short but I try to speak with compassion try to speak with humanizing language and kindness towards those who think I'm wrong and see the world differently uh try not to turn this into a political issue and just love my neighbor with my language third as I teach a high school class part-time and every year except coven we take our students on places to like Salt Lake City to engage those the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-Day Saints who've also gone to Berkeley regularly we're bringing atheist agnostics and we brought in a few gay activists to speak to our group and professors and I talked to my students I train them how do we ask good thoughtful questions but how do we show kindness and love to people who see the world very differently than we do and spent a lot of time training my students to do that so might not fully answer the question but those are a few practical things I try to do and like would like to see Christians do more actively just reaching out and loving people anything you'd want to add to that Darren sure um yeah it's uh this is a this is a very very important question because it won't matter much how much truth you speak um if it is not infused with Grace and if your whole life is not infused with Grace people will look at what you say and what you say you believe in light of how you live and that's they should do that uh it's it's very consistent with Jesus uh and uh so we very much have to um be mindful uh of this and I think with regard to people in your neighborhood people in your community uh that you know neighbors um if there are same-sex couples living in a new neighborhood um well be neighbors to them the same as you would meet any other neighbors in your neighborhood um and I hope that's good that's good neighbors yeah yeah good good clarification be good neighbors to everyone and including if there's same-sex couple living in your neighborhood um if you when you encounter you know for uh you know at school uh you know there's your child and then there's his classmates who's there with his team up there you go um or on the Little League team you know his teammate with the two moms and and um and be compassionate and just to relate to them as you would to any other any other parents that are there with their kids at the school or on the on the playground or at the ball field um and engage a conversation just be real with them um this is not an opportunity to preach this is not opportunity to try to convert somebody or or whatever this is just an opportunity to be neighbors um and take advantage of that and just just do it um and and uh uh as you know I think that's I think that's uh something that you know I think it's just an imperative about how do you love your neighbor as yourself right um there you have it within the church I think we have a special responsibility um the church does and I would start with two things lament and listen um become aware of the way in which the church has in times and places and perhaps within your own congregation let's get treated um it's gay the gay uh Sons and Daughters of mother Church um this is Jesus warned um very directly against those who would cause even the littlest ones to stumble it would be better for you he says if you did this to have a millstone wrapped around your neck and be thrown in the deepest part of the sea than to cause one of these little ones who loved me who love God who have faith to stumble and I think as the church we need to consider this with regard in many respects but particularly with regard to the Sons and Daughters of the church [Music] are gay same-sex attracted and we have in some way caused them to stumble and we need to lament this um and we need to listen um you talked about going for coffee not to preach not to convert but to listen to share to share a life to listen to listen to stories um and I think this is um something we need to be open to and we need to provide space for this it isn't just as well if something comes to me and wants to tell me something oh listen I think we have to be more intentional about that um again and providing that space whether it's a very personal intimate space in the you know person-to-person conversation over coffee or in some other context there's that open that space um and it could also act within your family um a space for someone to talk uh to talk and for others to people see and also within the congregation the family of faith that you belong to um to make space for people to be able to speak openly and honestly about what life is like for them how they relate their faith in Jesus and their experience of their sexuality um and I think that is really important that's sort of Henry nowin a a writer yeah that many of us know and love yep wrote a book many years ago with Don McNeil and I'm sorry there was a third co-author but it's a title compassion and and I read that book when I was a student a graduate student at Notre Dame uh don McNeil was a priest in another day and and so this book came into my hands and I read this and it there's a part of it that's stuck in my head about what they said compassion is compassion is going to places of need of pain uh Brokenness um of grief and so on uh and instead and building a home there planting yourself in it right rooting yourself in it and engaging in uh uh with that and so this compassion suffering with you have to be willing to sort of hunker down in someone else's experience and listen uh at least that's a first as a Point of Departure about how do you engage compassionate with someone if you're not willing to listen um to what they have to say without preparing your jobs and responses but you know um and but just listen and take in and and consider their pain consider their suffering consider um and so on that uh if you're not willing to start there then this is you're not going to get the compassion you kind of have to start there and I think that needs to happen at multiple of others personal levels um the family levels of biological family levels and congregational levels I'm looking at a painting on my wall of Rembrandt's return to prodigal son because in the book The Return Prodigal Son by Henry noun was so profound I've read him for years and didn't know he had same-sex attraction which looking back right did explain some of the issues that he wrestled with but such a profound writer on so many levels Let's uh let's take this one right here we'll do maybe two or three more and we'll then we'll we'll we'll call it important question how would you advise someone who is at a church which is a spirit-led church which is gay affirming his Spirit at the is the spirit at the church then a false Spirit Well I'm not gonna guess the nature of the spirit from here and I'm gonna assume when you mean gay affirming you don't mean loving and affirming towards people who are gay but you mean um affirming towards gay Theology and accepting same-sex unions I would say a couple things I would say there's probably a Matthew 18 pattern that you first go to some of the leadership express some of your concerns and why do it respectfully do it graciously if they don't respond then I think you have a responsibility to take it to a few other people not to lead a coup not to make a big political mess but to say hey our church is teaching something that doesn't align with what scripture says we need the church to make a decision and then the church would clarify either we're going affirming or non-affirming and if the church stays at the point where it's affirming then you have a choice do you stay in a church that holds this View and try to have an influence from the inside or do you leave and that's a choice you have to make I can't tell you exactly what to do but I do find in many many circumstances when a church becomes affirming it's a matter of biblical Authority and you are going to see that spill over into a whole host of other issues so if it were me I could not stay at a church that's teaching an affirming theological position because I think scripture is very clear and one of the things you point out Darren in your book is that there's more debate about war and pacifism in the church the role of men and women in the church but the idea that marriage is an opposite sex Union has been held universally in the church until just a few years ago so it is a big deal and a core doctrine that would signal to me this church is no longer staying faithful to scripture that's how I would approach it any thoughts you want to add yeah so let me take these two questions uh in turn um one since by the time you're asking this question um it's it's probably it's probably too late um I in other words if if it's you know part of it's what we're trying to lead in what is meant here by gay affirming and it depends you know how have they adopted a a policy we're going to celebrate same-sex weddings and consider these as real Christian marriages and so on but to that point where that's that kind of a theological Viewpoint has been sort of already woven into the you know um you know so so I don't know how this person came into this church did you just come into this church and then discover this were you there a long time um and and this there was a process and this resulted from that it's hard to it's hard to say about how I would advise you depending on what that situation is and what exactly that policy is um I think the second question is the spirit at that church then a false spirit I think that's a very important question and that that's what you know there's a there's a chapter in my actually a couple chapters of the last two chapters in the book exactly about that that we have a discernment question about well is this a true spirit is this is this you know we're the apostles you advise us to test the spirits you know don't dismiss the prophets among you um but test the spirits to see if they are of God and that's what needs to happen and of course in our congregations in the number of ways not just about sex and marriage but of course a lot the whole the whole range of of things and so that I think that's an important question is this a false fear and this goes back to the point we made earlier in response to a question well why can't we just say the Bible says no or doesn't and it doesn't doesn't ever see us and isn't at the end of it well some think the spirit as they do the church in a new way and and giving the church a new teaching and that we then need to discern is this a true spirit I mean there may be a spirit at work here as the question suggests but it may be a spirit a false and that is misleading the church and I think there you would have to sort of uh engage again I would suggest yes the kind of process you suggested right of course you you don't stand up and broadcast something on Sunday morning to the whole congregations right right engage in conversation with leadership and find out what what this is about and why and it could be something that is well intentioned but this guy that could come from a for instance a good place but be misdirected look we're wanting to love people who are gay we wanted to love our gay brothers and sisters and and of course if that's so that's the first guy who said well yes yes yes um but then we can be misguided in how and how you love others right we can love others in ways that actually oppresses them it just Smothers them you know I'm just thinking ordinarily we can go about loving others in ways that seeks to control them or other kinds of things in ways that are just not don't promote flourishing and don't promote development of uh spiritual fruit and so on so it could be that it's misdirected you know and that's that's one question it could be something else where they're starting in a different place um and this is coming out of some other places like oh I can't see that Spirit coming from God from what I know of what Jesus has taught what the Apostles of witness to Jesus teaching and so on so I think that calls for discernment that's great very very smart biblically based way to do it well let's take our final question you and I did three hours of teaching another hour 20 we are way over here but these questions are just important and I think deserve the answers that people are asking for so here's the final one it says at the end of your session and this is our last 3.5 hour in-depth session you spent time addressing the plausibility argument saying that for the church to respond to this is practically by committing to the biblical vision of marriage and Chastity for everyone and committing to each other to meet if you know of any churches where this is successfully being done I'm also wondering if you could paint a very Vivid picture what that commitment to marriage would look like for Chastity and everyone now let me say this in terms of a church doing it well I'm gonna give a shout out to a friend of mine Caleb caltenbach he's written a book called messy Grace messy truth grew up his parents divorced when he was two years old and his mom uh married a woman he was raised by two moms and his dad actually entered into a gay relationship was raised in the in the gay community and he said he always felt safe he felt loved kind of considered Christians the enemies until he met Jesus in high school radical transformation and I came home to his parents to his mom said he was a Christian that actually kicked him out of the house which flips the typical script that we hear which shows that maybe it's not just Christians who uniquely kick out their gay kids all of us have a hard time accepting people who see the world differently and we all fall short in that area nonetheless became a pastor and now he's doing consulting with churches and universities and organizations legally and practically how to navigate some of the challenges with the lgbtq community so if you're part of a church or a community and you're looking for somebody that just exudes love and kindness and fun he likes Star Wars so he's a funny guy but also commitment to the scripture just go to calebcoltonback.com I'll put a link when it's done in the show notes but he's a friend of mine won't mind a shout out obviously but I'm doing it because I think he's the resource if you're trying to figure this out practically to bring in for Consulting do you want to add anything to that or what it could look like with singleness and Chastity in the church yeah I'm reading that book right now I just good um yeah so do I have an example of a church that's doing this well I honestly have to answer no um I couldn't say here's a congregation where I think that I think is doing doing this well I think I think a lot of our congregations are are sort of like mine and where there's a uh in which [Music] um you know there's a I don't know it's complicated right and and where people's lives are complicated and and I don't know that we approach these things in a cohesive uh kind of cohesive way but here's as I thought about this um question what does it look like the the viewer asked for a very Vivid picture and I think that's a that's an appropriate way to put it what does this look like and I'm going to give a simple answer that I'm going to flush off just a little bit here and give a couple of examples um that what shouldn't surprise you I think it will look like marriage I think what a congregation does this well it will look in a way like marriage and why do I say this what am I getting at um that when you think about if we're going to live every one of us according to this consistent Chastity which is not sometimes Chastity and celibacy Protestants get these confused and conflicts will set you straight no no no celibacy is what the Chastity is for everybody right and where we live in in in within this um both within the boundaries of that God has set for sex and marriage but also live toward the fullness of good and Grace that God is offering to us through these whether through marriage or through celibacy and um and that we Orient our whole if the chassis is really about an ordering of our desires within us towards this good that God has has ordained and has has offering to us um and living ordering ourselves towards that and living them within this with a view to this this vision of uh Christ in the church right as sort of encompassing all that okay so that's what in a sense you know where Chastity is more than just about oh you don't have illicit sex okay yes there's that no purpose there's this big yes part of it if we're going to live that well whether we're married or single and if single whether we just happen to be single maybe we're waiting to get married wanting to get married or maybe we're committed or want to commit to celibacy um for for life if we're going to live this well no matter what our station and situation um is we well we need well we're going to need things we're going to need counseling accountability with each other yep we're going to need wise counsel from those you know if you can imagine younger couples being mentored by older couples in the congregation we're going to need those examples of fidelity and so forth within that they provide as well as the the kind of uh stability you know in marriages that have been lived long and lived well that they can provide as well as support in the kinds of when things get difficult when things get you know um a couple loses a child well another couple who's also lost it could come alongside with that Compassionate Care um or if you're single and so you're going to need counsel as well about how I go about my life um and how uh how I discern things so we're going to give you that wise counseling which will help us discern well just distinguish good from Evil right from wrong and choose well we're also going to need accountability when things go wrong when we do wrong when we go astray when we get would become Wayward in some some respect we're going to need to be called to account by brothers and sisters that are going to either point that out to us or are going to work with us when we come and confess but we need to have that context in which you can confess and and we'll need to have to figure out how we are going to repent what that's going to look like in a practical way and also do we need to reconcile do we need to put things right if we've wronged other people how do we put that right and how do we go about seeking reconciliation so we're going to need those things and I think where those things are done well is in a certain kind of community a certain kind it doesn't you know think about the best advice you've ever gotten and why it really mattered I was at one point given some counsel from a couple people in my congregation who I trusted and so forth and once said you should consider doing this and I thought oh that's interesting thought uh well then a wise Elder came after right after worship one Sunday morning and said Darren you should consider doing this and I said oh I gotta listen to that now I gotta listen and I gotta consider and I ended up doing that you know and something I never expected to be kind of ministry uh Mission work that I did not expect and wow I wasn't looking for but I received that counsel because I was in a community where we were together and I trusted these people and we shared life together in ways that went beyond just showing up on Sunday morning at the same place to sing songs and hear the word and hear the sermon and then go home we were living life together in ways that were burned up so there was a kind of solidarity of community there and not only that this wise Elder had been in this congregation for decades long before I ever showed up and so there were people who were faithful faithful to each other in this community um and I think a community then of fidelity and solidarity are kind of the essential kind of character kind of community in which then we can have available to us the council and accountability we'll need to live this out now of course as I said that I hope viewers are saying oh I see the connection um faithful to one another right through for the long haul that we're that we're sticking together and we're supporting one another um and good and bad right and if now we're thinking about the marriage vows forsaking all other until death us do part um that's the most extensive kind of commitment we can make and but also in for rich or poor sickness and in health for better for worse this is what a congregation should look like um supporting one another and supporting each other emotionally spiritually physically financially um a solid body a solidarity in suffering and enjoy celebrating with each other when you know baby is born when the marriage happens when someone graduates when you get things you know of course baptisms should be in my view the biggest celebration we have um an ongoing basis in the church when those are baptized and and so so this is what I mean sort of our congregations need to have kind of a nuptial character to them um as a as a body um in in way then that kind of community will uh nurture the chaste lives will help us instruct Us in what that looks like to support us in doing it will help us discern if someone you know how many people go to their congregations or Elders when they're Discerning whether or not to get married I suspect a lot of Christians don't they might go to their parents that's good they might talk to friends that's good how many go to their congregations um and and seek from a wise Elder who's perhaps counseled them on something else I'm Discerning whether to get married or whether to marry this person help me you know pray with me about that and so on we need to be able to do that as well as so this is what I'm thinking so we need to have that's a high level of commitment and uh it's asking a lot but I think that's what's that's what the gospel calls us to um now let me give you just one example so we're going to draw this out too long um of someone and I suspect you know this person I won't use this person's name um but so he is a single and uh person a Believer and uh committed to celibacy for life um he's also gay and he he wrestles with um this question of well what does this look like what does my life look like and we've been led to think well if whether you're gay or not gay illustrate a life of singleness is going to be a life of isolation and loneliness and all the made worse by going to church because then you see all these people paired off in their their families and so forth yeah and you're just like where do I fit in what's my connection and I think I'll put all of this out as a test question for your cup for any kind of Judah for anybody to ask you their congregation if the only way for someone to fully belong and fully be included in all the fellowship and Ministry and worship and all the blessings and benefits of belonging to a Christian congregation is the only way to be fully into that is to be married or to be a child of a marriage right within the congregation then there's something significantly deficient about your country well said I will put that that bluntly there's something significantly wrong good we all need a place to belong and that's a concrete kind of thing a belonging so what he has done this person I'm referring to is he has joined together with a family husband and wife and their kids and they've kind of they've kind of committed to each other he's become kind of part of their family and a larger family of Faith there's the intact with a marriage family uh husband and wife and kids that has its own Integrity but he's now they've joined their lives together they live under the same Ruth and they've uh they share life together he's kind of Uncle to the kids uh you know the uncle in faith right to the kids and um and so he's sharing in the life of their family with with the child care and all those responsibilities they're supporting him he's supporting them and and they share that life together and that means that they don't make decisions independently of each other right what you do then affects the other and so nope and part of that commitment is one is not gonna separately from the other sort of pull up stakes and move on and say oh we're done we've decided we're going to move on we'll keep in touch no they've decided they're going to stick together and that constrains then what decisions you can make it's like being in a marriage right if the husband can't just go and do it I'm gonna go do this right I'm gonna take a job on the other on the opposite Coast you know um and uh I'll see you on weekends maybe and once a month I'll come visit wait wait wait wait wait what you get no no no no you can't do that right we're sticking together right and and that has consequences so this is an example and I think not every kind of situation needs to look like this but I think our congregations need to nurture openness to these kinds of belongings between each other um and within congregations these kinds of belongings that you know and maybe it's seek to you know make sure every single person who wants to it anyway some may not want to um can be connected to a a family they might be still be connected to their own biological family and that's fine but I know know lots of single people in congregations and I've been one for many years where I wasn't connected by Alexis to anybody but at one point in my life I did have a family that kind of I became an adjunct member of their family and they eventually made me a Godfather to their to their youngest child um to sort of a special kind of bond there and and so I was in and out of their lives in and out of their house you know on a regular basis and we were you know so there was a connection and a belonging there that I felt I belonged and and in a very concrete way and so that I I had a larger sense of what a flourishing life in Christ would look like and um I love that I think that story I do know how you're referring to is a powerful example of how singles and married people can feel that they belong because that's Matthew 19 First Corinthians 7 that's what scripture teaches and frankly there's a different kind of marriage in heaven that's how the church is supposed to mirror what heaven is going to be like yeah well you and I have done over five hours together of teaching on this if anybody made it to the end of the Q a and did not hear the first 3.5 hours we go into some remarkable death I hope by now you will thank Dr Darren blusic by getting a copy of his book marriage scripture and the church which is the primary book I will recommend on kind of an intermediate academic level although readable for those who understand a Biblical case for natural marriage um don't forget to hit subscribe we have some cool interviews come out next week for example vody bakum is coming on a talk about his book fault lines which I think is going to be pretty awesome very interesting book we have Wayne grudemont coming on to do a behind the scenes look about the people and books and experiences that have shaped his life we're going to talk about deconversions lots of fascinating topics coming up I kind of I I tickle myself so to speak that I get to do this I love having these conversations so much so if you've ever thought about studying this more formally come study with us at Biola University we have a full distance program a master's degree in apologetics and one class of sexual ethics but I teach problem of evil teach on in defense of the Resurrection teach a class on reaching Generation Z if you have an undergrad degree and have ever thought about getting a masters in apologetics we would love to have you join us at Tom School theology Biola so Dr ballusic don't disappear we can chat briefly afterwards but thanks all of you we'll be back Thursday at two o'clock Pacific Standard Time with votibaca to talk about his book fault lines so we'll see you then

Channel: Sean McDowell

Views: 29,256

Keywords: question, answer, interaction, same-sex unions, marriage, relationships, scripture, bible, theology, passages, Genesis, Matthew, Jesus, gay, lesbian, LGBTQ

Id: SRClYgODM5I

Length: 97min 51sec (5871 seconds)

Published: Fri Jun 04 2021