Deconstruction, doubt and finding faith again - Lisa Gungor and Alisa Childers

[Music] well today on the show we're talking about the construction doubt and finding faith again lisa Ganga and Lisa Childers joined me on the show today both have had careers in the Christian music industry and both have gone through spells of severe doubt and deconstruction when it comes to their faith but both have found their way back again albeit to quite different understandings of faith in Christianity and in light of some other recent doubt and deconstruction stories that have been hitting our social media recently Joshua Harris Hillsong worship leader Marty Sampson and others we're going to be hearing today about their journeys and hearing where they are similar where they differ in the process so let's first of all introduce Lisa Lisa Ganga with her husband Michael heads up the musical collective Ganga having begun as a quote-unquote Christian band and their music has essentially charted their own theological journey as both of them became disillusioned with the evangelical churches they began in and those journeys have been explored in some detail in the liturgist podcast to which they're both contributors and a journey which eventually led Michael to the label of atheist but for Lisa it's eventually led back to a progressive and maybe open ended relationship with God and Christianity as told in her book the most beautiful thing I've seen opening your eyes to wonder so first of all welcome along Lisa to the program great to great to have you on today I think it's great really looking forward to the conversation with the Lisa as well who we bringing in shortly tell me a little bit about the book first it was the culmination I guess of a long journey do you want to give us a sort of very brief overview of what that journey has looked like in in its various stages yeah so I grew up I grew up a pretty mystical kid I always believed that there was I just always felt I guess didn't know what belief was at that point but I felt there was always know something that I couldn't see in like a voice a presence with me and so I just I grew up believing that God just was and then my parents were Baptist the Methodists for a while and then my mom and I found this really Chris Matic church and people were running down the aisles and bleeding flags and it looked really exciting to me after being in a church that I was just falling asleep in and counting I remember I would count like the light fixtures on the ceiling of the churches that might be my dad like and drawing in the hymnals I'm just trying to keep myself awake been there for some yeah for lots of reasons this so the church he went to just felt so alive to me so my mom and I started going to this really Chris Matic crazy wild church and my dad and my brother and sister would go somewhere else but it and though like my family would all say they were Christian it was like for me I felt like my mom and I really had the same right look we really it was about really alive fresh and then but for my dad it felt like this very robotic systemic thing he just did but I'm sure for him he would say it was very real so right within the same religion Christianity they were like at odds with each other from the beginning you know that was like my upbringing was my mom's like me your dad's going to hell and and my death would say my mom was going to hell so it was very confusing as a kid but I but I don't know I was I was in that was mmm Church was like the place for me I my almost pretty it's a pretty difficult place to grow up and there was abuse in different ways and church became this really safe place for me and my faith was was the this the main thing of my life and so then I I was writing songs and I started singing them in church I started leaving music in our church we grow up in a tiny tiny town and it's like mostly Hispanic and so we'd sing in English and in Spanish a lot and it just was very alive and vibrant but like most people have experienced that the one place that they feel safe and it feels like their heart is opening it can also have these really weird rules and it there can just be poisonous things where you don't see them so um there were some things I started questioning a little bit but but I was told you just you don't question and if you question the Bible if you question the teacher or the pastor then you either in essence sinning so I kind of shut down any kind of questions that I had and just but I also didn't really care that much it's there like yeah so that leads me to college and that's where I met Michael and then we started leading four different organizations and how you can mega church and started traveling around the world with our band and it felt like we were like our dreams were happening we played at Hillsong I remember early on I just thought like that we I couldn't believe I was playing at Hillsong I don't listening to those songs yeah I was gonna say that for a period I think this was probably the early 2000s you kind of were living the dream in a sense that at that time yes where you were you know both music pastors in this very big mega church but it kind of I think inevitably you were both and Michael perhaps especially on a journey that was sort of you were starting to question some of the aspects of the Majella chol christian culture at that point we had I mean we're going to have to speed through this inevitably but but it led you eventually kind of leaving and going to to Denver and sort of setting up a house church of sorts yes what were the sort of things going on though in the background to all of those decisions that were leading both of you to kind of re-evaluate the in fact he'd obviously byte growing up in I mean it seemed like science was not welcome in in faith so that was a big one for us didn't it didn't seem like the LGBTQ community was welcomed fully welcome to an extent that we could serve but you couldn't lead so that became a glaring problem for us a problem that had always been there and that we were just waking up to and yeah just the idea that God's love is so big but he created the problem health god created being his children with sin and then therefore sending them to hell because of the sin that he knew it was already gonna happen I mean it's it just seemed like a really I don't know it felt really backwards and once I became a mother especially by God people always told me that once I became a mother I would understand God's love even more but I actually began to doubt that even more because there's no way I would I would ever do that to my own daughter so so yeah things like life progressed and that I mean I mean this this was obviously going on with the music career taking off in many ways and you know yes gunga became you know I have you know I I have listened to many younger tracks many of my friends in taganga I guess to some extent the big questions that were emerging in both of your walks here work sort of to some extent having were not necessarily being broadcast at this point because you were still a as I said quoting quite Christian band doing doing the touring thing so how was it was there a kind of public perception and a kind of what was going on behind scenes was was what guess a bit a bit difficult at that point well I think our perspective was we had always talked about the doubts in our songs yes but that's how art is you interpret it and so even when you would say food we would say look I'm doubting or just some please be my strength I don't have it anymore we were pretty explicit in our songs about what we were struggling with but I think people didn't understand the full extent because it's art and we all interpret art how we're where we need it and I love that about art but so we were very always very open about it and we weren't hiding we decided pretty early on that we had to be honest because we saw it tears so many people apart so um so where we thought we were being honest other people weren't hearing that but it came to a head right ventually became very public on a on a podcast yeah yeah no I know I remember us doing five years ago or something when when that all kind of exploded to some extent and and there was yeah lots of headlines and things around around Michael ganger especially and and so on but um I mean we I want to kind of talk about your your journey but it's is linked inevitably to my calls and I mean I don't he say in the book that you were an atheist for about one day yeah whereas my michael has sort of essentially adopted that label himself at this point so to what extent has that I mean that must have obviously at the time caused quite a lot of turmoil but yeah where is that left you now have you kind of I don't know come to accept that at some level well he's not an atheist think now so in terms of I didn't I don't know if I heard that differently than what you were saying it but at the time yeah I was terrified with a young daughter we had started the church in Denver and I didn't know yeah we were everything we were doing that that's how we were surviving when financially so it's felt like if it felt like everything was falling apart mmm but I I think of a moment he told me he was an atheist that's really where I was like well letters I started questioning my own motives what is love about it if I'm expecting him to be a certain way and that's why I love him that's felt like a shallow love to me yeah so really showed me my own heart and why I why I love why I'm open to people and he it was really difficult I mean there's there was some moments that we just felt like we could really see each other and understand and I understood why he was an atheist and again I felt I felt like my brain was just split and some days I believed and some days I didn't like he said there was one day I was like yeah that's it many atheist I can't believe anything but I had so many mystical experiences growing up and again my faith was a thing that carried me through my whole life so for me I just couldn't adopt a label as atheist so so there were some times it felt like we really understand and saw each other and then and then yeah all the times we just thought our marriage was over everything was falling apart but we just continued every day to try to see each other and to and I think I really realize a lot about the patriarchy that I grown up in thinking that for some reason I needed to follow his line of thinking and not follow my own heart so that was another thing that really opened up for me we'll come back to this journey shortly because there's lots of things I want to ask you about there's obviously some some big things in the book that we haven't sort of got to yet but I'm really time to introduce our other guest on the podcast today ELISA Childers was part of the band zoe girl they had several hits in the early 2000s before going their separate ways ELISA has continued in music but her journey also took her on to a place of questioning her own faith quite intensely that in turn led her to apologetics by organizations such as Ravi Zacharias International Ministries and having come back to effectively a more or less evangelical faith she now speaks and writes on apologetics herself and hosts the ELISA Childers podcast at Lisa welcome long to the show as I say we've got two people on here who have not dissimilar backgrounds in some ways and have had similar experiences but have come out in from places ultimately on that and I think that's where we're gonna have fun some really interesting conversation on today's program but I'll give you the chance as well to sort of give us a taste of your growing up I take it you were probably raised in a Christian family yourself ELISA yes I I was and I grew up in Southern California and my dad was one of the barefoot drugged out hippies that became a Christian in the Jesus Movement in the late 60s and early 70s of Cabra chapel and and other churches in that area and so he had been searching for God and he wasn't raised in the church or in in any kind of evangelical type Church I think he was raised with some kind of Catholicism but just search for God through Buddhism and Hinduism and other Eastern philosophies and religions and ended up finding God in a little country church in Southern California and my mom had been raised Assembly of God but had walked away from her faith a little bit and had come back to the Lord in in that time and so that's sort of the background of the type of Christianity that I was raised and my dad was also a musician so he toured all over the world I got to go all over the world as a young girl and I would watch him you know sing and preach the gospel to thousands of people in one situation and then the next weekend he would be at the Mission on Skid Row singing for you know 50 homeless guys and so that type of ministry was really big in my family we we regularly worked the soup lines and the Fred Jordan mission in LA on Skid Row and did all kinds of street evangelism on Hollywood Boulevard so I encounter a lot of atheists and people of other religious philosophies and and back and backgrounds and upbringing and I guess I just wanted to lay the foundation that the type of Christianity that was modeled for me was was really authentic it was really genuine there it wasn't ruled by legalism or or what I hear from so many people that began to question their faith they had they had been raised in these really stripped and legalistic almost cult-like situations and and I'm so thankful that I didn't have that type of experience now it not at all trying to pretend that it was all perfect it certainly wasn't but my parents just modeled repentance for me they they modeled you know Bible study and so as as early as I can remember I've loved Jesus I don't even remember a time in my life when I wasn't aware of his presence even when my mom came in when I was five years old and asked me if I wanted to invite Jesus into my heart I just remember being kind of confused by the question like well I mean he's already there so I I couldn't even understand the question but I've always left the Bible so I far back as I can remember I would read and study the Bible so with that background I never really encountered any kind of doubt there was no reason for me to doubt my my Christianity or that the claims of Christianity were true or that the Bible was the Word of God or anything like that because it all just it was it was a beautiful presentation to me and the Christians that I knew were people who loved God loved other people you know clothed the naked and fed the poor and that was how I was raised and so it wasn't until actually after my time with Zooey girl around 2007 is when we came off the road and we all started to get married and having babies and so I found myself in 2008 Oh as a new mom and I was invited to come sing at a church in Middle Tennessee here where I live and we just connected with this church we loved the people and the sense of community that we found there we hadn't really found a church community like that since we'd been married and so about eight months in to our time of attending this church the pastor invited me to be a part of a a pretty intensive study group and what I didn't realize at the time was that the study group was really more of a kind of group deconstruction and so I you know I came with my Bible in my in my notebook already the to study and and it was in the class that the pastor revealed that he was actually more of an agnostic he called himself a hopeful agnostic and so all of these claims started coming up against everything I'd ever believes about Jesus and about God and especially about the Bible and everything was sort of put up on this intellectual chopping block and just kind of hacked to pieces with what really seemed at the time to me to be flawless logic because well I knew the Bible I had never really formally studied theology like Lisa mentioned I had experiences with God that I I mean I knew that I felt his presence I knew that that he had spoken to me or this or that or I just I knew it was real I could feel him and so all of these intellectual arguments started coming around and I realized that I'd never really looked at my faith through an intellectual lens and so through the course of about four or five months my husband and I decided to leave the church we we didn't really want to raise our daughter there and so it was after we left the church that what I realized now was a my own deconstruction started to happen I went through an incredibly dark time of doubt just not just doubting the Bible not just doubting Jesus resurrection or are the claims that he made but just even questioning every mystical and every experience that I'd ever had with God you know every time in worship when I felt his presence was that just mmm synapses in my brain firing because it felt good because of the sociological connection I had to that group of people and so it was really dark and and I found myself just you know think it felt like I'd been plunged into a stormy ocean and I had no lifeboats no no rescue boat coming no buoy no lifejacket and I was just dog paddling and I was just watching my whole worldview just crumble right before my eyes and so that's what sort of started me on the path to figure out what I believed was actually true about reality and that's when I discovered apologetics and that's when I discovered scholarship in this whole intellectual tradition that that has undergirded Christianity for so long that I didn't even know was there and and obviously this was you know this is kind of where your story maybe takes a different trajectory to Lisa's in as much as where Lisa kind of leaned in I suppose to some extent to kind of casting off perhaps some of the orthodoxies of Christianity and obviously let Lisa comment on that herself in a moment but you you you found yourself actually becoming persuaded that actually a lot of these issues were were actually satisfactory dealt with on an intellectual front that there were good reasons to believe the Bible was the Word of God that Jesus was God's Son rose again and that that sort of thing so how long did it take for you to kind of put those pieces together again and and kind of be able to I suppose you know do things like not second-guess every thought you have and whether I'm you know is this worship just my brain or am I actually meeting God and because it's more than just an intellectual exercise at that level isn't it yeah well so it took me several years I think I started studying somewhere toward the end of 2008 early 2009 and I'm still studying but but the for me to become totally satisfied that I believed that now there were things I corrected like when when my faith my worldview deconstructed and I was putting pieces back there were some pieces I was like that should have never been there in the first place or you know that piece was in wrong things like that so there were course corrections that I made along the way but a lot of those years was spent on the Bible because I really needed to know first of all is the Bible that sitting in my lap even what they originally wrote so that the textual transmission that's something I studied for years and took seminary classes I audited all these seminary classes and and then okay so if we have an accurate copy of it did they even tell the truth these guys just make this stuff up how do we know these were eyewitnesses all those kinds of questions and so years was spent on that a short time in the beginning was spent just looking at basic arguments for the existence of God I became satisfied very early that at least some kind of a God must exist from evidence it just it would like I mean this is kind of cliche but it would take more faith for me to not believe that then to believe that but then who is God and and how does he communicate with us and so a lot of that time was spent just just looking at the Bible and at the end of the day I I came to the conclusion that the bones the the bones of Christianity that the definition the thing that's made it unique in the world for 2,000 years the claims that it's made are true and I I came became completely intellectually satisfied that the Bible is has been transmitted accurately that what we have is truthful in it and then there therefore I started building from there that yes actually do believe that the Bible is authoritative that it is inspired by God and and it's the Word of God and so what's the difference I mean many people who go through that process perhaps like Lisa BAPS you know and I've seen a number of people male and female who have gone through some sort of deconstruction process don't always put the pieces together back like you have what what's the difference if you can I mean I mean is it at the end of the day is it fully subjective as to whether you do or whether you don't kind of build build it back up in that way well I don't know I think I kind of see deconstruction like a Lego set so my kids love to put LEGO sets together and and you've got a manual there and you start building it and inevitably we'll be building a Lego set and then something's just going wrong right you know like this piece is not fitting anymore none of these instructions make sense anymore and so you have a choice at that point do you say okay we can just smash this thing and throw it away or we can just say the manual must be flawed so so it's wrong and we'll just walk away from this or you could you know pick all the pieces off and start over and maybe build something different than the designer had intended it to look like or you know the hard thing is to actually start picking each piece apart looking at it with reason with evidence from the world around you and and start figuring out which you know you could get back far enough it's hard but you get back and you realize oh man like you know 800 steps ago I put this piece in wrong and that's why everything else is going is going off and so you go back and you rebuild and so that's kind of how I see what what I did I I can't speak for others I don't know you know what would motivate someone to to believe something else obviously they they would have to tell you but I know for me it was it was a lot of hard work and I was prepared that if this was not true that I would abandon it I don't want to believe something that's not true and I guess for me truth is really important I want what I think about the world to reflect what's real about the world what's true about the world and so although we can see things from different perspectives the whatever we're looking at is actually something that is something and and so I wanted to adjust my perspective to see it it truly and rightly and so I think you know just speaking for myself that's kind of how I see it great great start to the show and really just the first section of today's show just both of you laying out your stories which i think was an important part of this and and we're really dig into it and have more of a conversation between you both as we progress this is unbelievable and in the next section of today's program are going to be continuing chatting to lisa Ganga and ELISA Childers both talking about their journey of deconstruction doubt and finding faith again but where they've ended up in sort of different places ultimately at Lisa's new book is called the most beautiful thing I've seen opening your eyes to wonder I'll make sure there are links to her as well Lisa Ganga comm from today's program more about ELISA Childers at ELISA Childers calm and apologetics work as well and we'll be back in a short moments time the UK's favorite faith debate show is coming to the USA this autumn join me Justin Briley for unbelievable live in LA on Friday the 11th and Saturday the 12th of October we'll kick things off with the big conversation on Friday night a live audience recording of the show where Christian thinker professor John Lennox and YouTube's Dave Rubin sit down with me to discuss is God dead a conversation on faith culture and the modern world then on Saturday I'll be hosting a team of Christian speakers from the UK and USA for unbelievable the conference la John Lennox Jay Warner Wallace Mary Jo Sharpe Ruth Jackson Brian Brodeur s'en AJ Roberts and Jeff finds will help you to make the case for Christ and have more confident conversations in a skeptical culture it's all happening at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa on Saturday the 11th and Friday the 12th of October book your place at unbelievable dot live welcome back to today's show we're talking about deconstruction doubt and finding faith again really excited about the guests joining me on the show today Lisa Ganga and ELISA Childers both with careers in the Christian music industry both have gone through spells of severe doubt and deconstruction when it comes to faith but they both kind of come out of it but with sort of different perspectives and that's what we're going to be discussing in the rest of today's program Lisa you've sort of written very eloquently about your journey in your new book the most beautiful thing I've seen listening to Elise's story and I'm sure there are parts of that that you can connect with but but also in a way you you've obviously gone in a different direction having encountered probably some quite similar issues so what what's the difference would you say between the way you tackled it and the way and the way ELISA has tackled it in the end um I think the difference would be I think the difference would be that I see all the streams of religions leading to the same well I believe the Bible is good and I I'm not in a place of deconstruction anymore and trying to find and poke the holes I loved your story I loved it so much it's so beautiful and I really resonate with so much of it I think for me trying to it became so intellectual for me mm-hmm and I thought if I figured it out enough for if I study the nos then I could that would be the foundation so for me it had to be an undoing had to it was a process of totally unknowing and there wasn't a piece to take out and put back in like the Lego set because the moment I would do that for me I would yeah I would well it's that piece true and and for me Jesus in the Bible in this path of Christianity that I had been on was was and then deconstructed the deconstruction was not a blip it was the thing that was always my Christianity my faith was always leading to and that it's like I think that's what's happened to us that's what happens when you when you are seeking God you get to the bottom mmm of it all well and I think that's the point so like every every good great teacher and guru that's the thing you're given a riddle you're given this thing that you try to figure out you walk away and you have a journey or a lifetime trying to figure out the riddle but the point is there's we're all we can so reside here in our head trying to figure it out and thinking we can actually prove that God exists and for me I can you you can't it's not a scientific thing you can pull apart and look under a microscope so for me it was all in undoing undoing all the things that I know and I'd taken seminary classes I went to so many different workshops weekend things about the Bible trying trying trying to figure it out so prove it and I never you don't feel like Norfolk ever got there and that wasn't a fruitful way I mean obviously in this process is yeah apart from that sort of one day where you sort of declared well I'm an atheist you you never felt belief in God evaporate exactly I mean there was actually though about a year ago I think that that viral BuzzFeed video which I think initially was titled I stopped believing in God after pastoring a mega church but I don't think that was quite the title you thought it was gonna have what was it no no I don't want it to be about that I don't believe in God anymore or church like I'm done I'm done with that thing that's yeah so past that right I can we talk about the beauty of life and what our daughters have done for us can we talk about other things and nope that's it okay hey they know what makes clicks don't they but the the I guess the point being it struck me from the book that in a sense you weren't that worried about Deeping dive diving deep at least in the book into those particular objections and things it was it was more that I got the sense that you had moved into a different way of seeing religion and God ultimately even by the end of it you you were sort of describing God as the divine mother and and sort of just just this kind of quite open-ended relationship almost to what that might be it's still quite mystical in that sense do you I mean so when now you know from where you're sitting now Lee said does the you know do you use the label Christian is that not one you'd particularly use what what what kind of and it's so difficult because this you know it might change from day to day who knows but what would if if someone asked hey what do you believe then Lisa is there an easy way of summing up in a label or a phrase or or or a sentence I mean I do I do consider myself part of the Christian community but I really think Jesus had it down when people say oh who are you you know there was so much there's so much into like what we tell people you are like what we're asking people's are you safe are you a safe person because what they're getting that can I believe you can I trust you so when he what they would say who are you and you would say why I am him so he wasn't like yeah he wasn't always prepared to give people the rasaan says they were sometimes looking for he yeah yeah yeah yeah so I if if we're looking for like a short thing of how to sum that up that's that's what I would say so what are you who are you I am are you do you consider yourself part of the Christian community yeah I do I really do I love Jesus very much what what's your take on all this elisa work where what was your response firstly to some of you know the videos around where lisa got to and and you know what she's written and spoken about when it comes to where she she finds herself ultimately well one part of my story that i forgot to mention was that the church i was at where this kind of group study happened ended up becoming a progressive christian community so that's why i've been so passionate to learn more about progressive christianity and and understand what progressive christians believe because so many of my friends and people that I was in community with went in that direction and so so I read Lisa's book and I thought it was you know beautifully written and I thought you wrote with such vulnerability it was a lot I related with in your book as well yeah but I would actually agree with Lisa that I don't like using the word proof because I think it's a really strong word I prefer you know trust based on evidence reason using your reason and things like this but I think it's just interesting a comment that Lisa made where Lisa you said that you believe that many paths lead to the same well and talking about different if I'm understanding you correctly different religious traditions and and different all leading to the to God or who you might call the Divine Mother yeah and it's interesting to me because that's it that's really a truth claim about objective reality that's that's a claim an objective truth claim and so either many paths lead to the same well or if Christianity is true and it's exclusive and Jesus is the only way well then then one of those is false and they can't both be true at the same time they could both be wrong but and so I think I just always as much as because I'm an artist too I'm in metaphors and and all this but no matter how much I personally get into the metaphor and all this it always circles me back around like these are both objective truth claims these are both claims about reality and so for me I I wanted my view of reality to be based on the evidence that I see in the world and evidence through science evidence through through through all the different ways that we can observe evidence and and so yeah so I don't I don't think it solves the problem I think that we're both kind of making exclusive claims about who God is and how to get to him and how how to practice that and how to live that out and so you know that was kind of my observation yeah yeah and I I mean at this point in my life I'm not trying to tear apart anyone's construct I think we all we all need constructs and whatever someone chooses and unless it's an oppressive depressing someone if it's a pencil press in the people group if it's harmful yeah not not into that but if it's if it's leading people and if it's helpful when it's helping you love yourself more and loving the kids and your family and everyone around you that's beautiful that's so beautiful when I say many these religions leading to the same well I'm also not saying that that's that wherever outside of God I don't I don't think we can I don't think I think God is always within and around us always I'm saying that there's one way to find Osama head I was going just say that the question that raised for me I suppose is you know with with that image in mind of many paths leading up the mountain all the well or whatever oh but but at the same time saying I still love Jesus and what what do you because at the average Christian might think Oh oh great she's a Christian just like me but that might mean something different to you Lisa so what what what role if you like does Jesus now play specifically in in your faith is it is it more just that he is a good sort of example of someone who stood against you know oppressive structures or or is there a kind of sense in which you do believe Jesus is is God come to us in some special unique way or do you do not so much feel that now well and may I know this is kind of a loaded a loaded thing but I I believe that Jesus is Son of God and I believe that we're all children of God so I think Jesus I'm not discounting even the Jesus claimed of himself or what Christianity claims of Jesus but I also don't think that's exclusive to Jesus okay so wait I like like just a quick question when Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father but through me what would what would you make of that I don't know I think there's so many things that I could use to be able to say WOW lemonade all I picked us apart I don't I don't know fully I I think Jesus is speaking into a deep truth about who he was and he see him you see the father I though the one way the one way thing yeah I get it that's why why would he say that I don't I don't know I mean coming to you ELISA I guess you know I can understand fully you know when I hear my skeptical friends that this is an issue for them you know if you are claiming an exclusive exclusivity when it comes to Christ it seems unfair on the face of it you know why why should there only be one way and so on I mean what what presumably this was all part of the big melange of questions you had as you as you started on pick things and work it out what what became the resolution for that is it easy done fair is is there it unfair that Jesus says I am the way the truth and the life if that's the way you understand him to mean it in in the sense of there's only one path to God and it's through me I see it like this I've thought about this question and I've thought about it like let's say that you are there's this chasm between you know God or let's say let's not even use that in the metaphor so let's say that there's this deep chasm that you can't get across if you try to cross if you try to jump over to the other side you're gonna fall in because you can't make the jump it's too far and you can't get across but where you are it's it's just dry and there's no food and there's no water and you're gonna die if you're there but then somebody comes along on the other side and says hey I'm gonna build this bridge and I'm gonna put it down and you can come across I just feel for me for me to say well that's so unfair that that's the only way that I can get across to the to the side where there's food and water and grass and all this beautiful things you know I don't think that's fair I I I think for me that it would feel like that whereas I just look at what Jesus did for me and and I have a heart that is just overflowing with gratefulness and it motivates me to want to tell more people about this beautiful bridge in and so but but I do understand where Lisa's coming from on this because I have many friends who didn't you know settle that question in the same way that I did but but I'm just seeing the person building the bridge for me and I'm going thank you you know that's that's great and I think I think it's you where there may be a bit of a difference to is that again with all the study I did on the Bible I wanted to know that the words that are recorded attributed to Jesus you know are those true are those true words is that what he really said and if it's not then where am I going to get my information about Jesus well it's going to be heavily subjective which Lisa might end up knowing a different Jesus then I might and end up knowing and then how do we decide between the two of us who's got the real Jesus and so for me I've I've chosen to put my trust in the way I believe God's revealed himself to the world which is through Jesus through his word and and so I see it as a beautiful gift a beautiful story the gospel is you know it's not just to get out get out of hell free card or just you know fire insurance like I think you know you mentioned that earlier that you were questioning some things about the evangelical culture I questioned things about the evangelical culture too but but it's the gospel I think that that stands so strong and it's a beautiful narrative arc that we find all throughout the Bible and and so yeah in in my heart in my mind those things are settled I that's what causes me to worship and into to praise God and thank God for for the gift of Jesus hmm any response they saw or anything you want to add on top of that I think that's all very valid what you're saying and for for us we yeah we were looking at the Bible and where did the but then where did that come from and then where does everything everything everything that we believe is all built on a reality that we believe in so if yeah how far down do you go that rabbit hole and and then for me we went all the way down all the way down and and again I think it's beautiful I think I love I love where you've ended up that's really beautiful and I'm not I'm not I don't want my life the crux of my life to be about like combatting someone else's belief system sure no I futile thing but I but I'm interested I'm still interested in the conversation I think it's like fascinating how we've all come to where we come to but I I mean I was just going to ask Lisa I mean would you say that now you you you don't necessarily believe in any of those specific doctrines of Christianity I don't know how much you kind of specify what where you are so do you I suppose you know if you would say you know do you believe in God three persons in one Trinitarian do you believe Jesus rose from the dead would you say all of that is kind of up for grabs at some level in the way you now approach faith you're not you don't see those as necessarily intrinsic to Christian belief yeah I definitely don't see it as you have to believe those things to to be a Christian but I think there's something really interesting about the Trinity and when we talk about like I've had mystical experiences where it feels like oh this is how sorry my hands got real big in the video Vic if this is God oh yeah then this is how God experiencing herself himself itself whatever you permanent you like to use in indifference as separateness so I see it all as the one thing but the God that loves to experience the the Trinity and then the Trinity breaks apart into all of it mm-hmm and so I think it's just this this thing to be I mean it's there's so much that my mom told me growing up and that I felt like no I can really figure it out but it's it's the unknowable it's a noble thing so did Jesus raised from was Jesus raised from the dead I don't know and I think it's really crazy that we are all that we've had all these debates around so we just can't know I think it's really cool I mean yeah I love to move to believe that I think it's possible absolutely um bomb nah I don't have a definitive answer yes it happened no what happened yeah none of us were there Alisa what what would you say to that how important do you think it is to kind of bet down in some of those beliefs I mean and you part part of the reason why you know we're having the show is because there's been lots of questions recently you know I mentioned earlier Hillsong worship leader Marty Sampson had this kind of was was a lot of headlines about him in social media suddenly questioning lots of aspects of Christian faith I don't know whether he's sort of shelved it completely or is maybe on a journey of trying to work it out but you know at the end of the day it sounds like Lisa's saying you know I I can get along with people whether they do or don't believe that and I don't see it as majorly important we weren't there how important would something like that the resurrection of Jesus be when it comes to you sort of defining as a Christian and you know as something pretty important to your faith yeah well I believe Christianity literally stands or Falls based on the resurrection being a real event in history and I agree Lisa none of us were there but at the same time there's historical evidence even outside the Bible for supporting the resurrection of Jesus and Paul said if Christ has not been raised your faith is in vain and you're still in your sins so Accession essentially what Paul is saying there is that if Christ wasn't physically raised from the dead then this is all pointless this is all worthless I mean go believe something else just but but Christianity is not true if Jesus wasn't raised from the dead and the the resurrection of Jesus can be found throughout all the Creed's it can be found in actually the earliest Creed that most scholars even the most liberal and atheist ones are going to date within three and seven years of Jesus death includes a belief in the resurrection linked with according to the scriptures and so if you're going to talk about Christianity in any kind of meaningful historic sense then you have to include in my in my opinion you have to include the physical resurrection of Jesus is what the earliest Christians believed it's why Christianity got off the ground in the first place if if there wasn't a resurrection then Jesus would have just been another one of those guys claiming to be the Jewish Messiah there there were lots of those around that time and and so I if if I believed the resurrection wasn't real it didn't really happen I wouldn't be a Christian I I would I would probably just do what I find to be the most beautiful type of you know spirituality or it or whatever just follow my feelings follow it follow what feels right but I wouldn't be a Christian I wouldn't call myself a Christian and I think that to talk about Christianity in any kind of a meaningful sense even historically it would have to include that so so yeah that's yeah yeah a quick response later and then we'll go to our final break yeah yeah and I I really see where you're coming from I I used to believe that as well and I'm not saying that where I've arrived it's a better place but but that's why I I think it's the love that Jesus showed he came with a radical new way of living loving your neighbor as yourself and I think what Jesus was talking about was not just being kind to people but I think he was pointing to the truth that we are all connected and that I am connected to you at least I am so connected to you you are the very flesh and bones of God so in it's not like Jesus was had such a radical way of living he he showed such a radical love that's why I would say yeah I'm a Christian did he die did he was he crucified I believe that did his physical body rise again I don't know but the crux of my love or you could say belief like it doesn't doesn't hinge on that to me the story Jesus is about love not about just in resurrection and I know a lot of people would agree disagree because Paul but Paul who is fall hey just there's so much that Paul said that we wait I mean he was a huge success as well many other things Paul was really beautiful in many areas but he was also he had his own construct and his own belief system about the world in his own way of seeing reality so for me when you say when you say that that we are connected and I'm the when Jesus you know said such-and-such and I'm the flesh and bones of God and and you know these are very these are objective truth claims that you're that you're making about reality and I guess my question would be where do you get that information like how did you come to that those conclusions and where do you where do you get that information hmm well I'm I guess the start of that would be when I was read it in the Bible weird the image of God so I'm sure that's where that idea originated we were made in the image of God so I guess that's one thing that I haven't oh sorry yeah I was just gonna chime in here to say we are approaching the end of this this segment and we can pick this conversation up again in a moment but obviously you know as I fully expected coming to some you know fairly obvious distinctives between you both at least obviously taking the view that there are objective truth claims at stake here and she believes that Jesus was the son of God rose again and that there are ways of knowing that to be true both historically and experientially obviously you you at least take a very different view to that at this stage in your journey we I appreciate the way you're both willing to kind of you know open up on this though and have an honest conversation and I've really enjoyed it so far we've just got another five or ten minutes in the last segment of today's program to finish up this conversation my guests on unbelievable are Lisa Ganga and ELISA Childers we're talking deconstruction doubt and finding faith again we'll be back in a short moment if you listen to unbelievable Justin Brierly on premier Christian radio and enjoy the conversations between Christians and skeptics then this is the perfect app for you for the latest updates podcasts videos articles bonus content and much more download premier unbelievable app today [Music] super interesting program today Lisa Ganga and Alisa Childers both joining me on the show find it more about Lisa and her book the most beautiful thing I've seen at Lisa go go calm Alisa Childers is available at Alisa Childers calm she's got an apologetics ministry and podcast there as well and Alisa coming back to you as we've been talking about this whole issue of your different journeys of deconstruction the fact that you put it together again back to a sort of you know something more like an evangelical Christian faith compared to where Lisa finds herself I mean you're not the first person to have gone in this journey nor is Lisa and and in some ways I've seen both of your stories in different ways coming out you know I've met people elisa who've gone your direction many people have gone Lisa's direction or beyond you know to full-blown atheism or something where Alisa what what kind of what what are you seeing around you there's a number of stories recently you know of I think increasingly Christian leaders of one kind or another who may be either questioning faith or ditching altogether or coming to some kind of quite progressive view III guess particular that's probably in the area of sexuality I think think that very often is the the you know the the thing that often sort of tends you know one Christian might say of another well you've gone too far now that you you know embrace the LGBT same-sex relationships whatever it might be and an obviously significant Christian people like the late Rachel held Evans Jennifer Hatmaker and Sarah Bessie I noticed just recently has sort of I think she's held to be for a while but but it sort of went very public with it on a blog post on on that front I mean is this something that concerns you ELISA that when you see obviously some of your contemporaries in the Christian world who are traveling in that kind of a direction when it comes to their faith yeah I see it a lot I think it's it's something that's happening all around us and since I actually started talking most exclusively about progressive Christianity on my blog and podcast I've had just email after email from from people who are seeing this happen with their friends and at their churches and I think the thing that that and this is I keep coming back to truth and I know it just makes me sound like just such a you know truth pounding that that hammer of truth but because because I think that we have to start with what's true and then and then we can think about right practice and so what I'm seeing with a lot of my friends that have gone into the progressive world or gone even further into atheism or agnosticism is is there are almost no converts to progressive Christianity from a different world view or from atheism in fact every progressive Christian that I can think of has come out of the evangelical church so why is that and I think that right now we're looking at a lot of abuse scandals in the evangelical church and I think people I've have friends who have been through legitimate abuse at their churches they've witnessed hypocrisy they have trouble with biblical sexuality or trouble with the Bible you know as Rachel held Evans wrote so eloquently in her book that God that was supposed to be the hero of the story was starting to look like the villain you know and she and she describes kind of her change of view in the Bible based on that and you know maybe growing up in a Christian bubble we weren't exposed to other worldviews all of those are are elements that I see it playing a part in people's deconstruction but in reality those those are things that you know like the abuse like we need to deal with that we need to to talk about it we need to correct it but that but the gospel the the truth of who God is how he revealed himself to the world doesn't change and and so yes we need to correct the things that that we've gotten wrong but I think it just makes me sad to see people leave the gospel because of something like that because because it became uncomfortable with biblical morality or or you know they met someone from a different denomination that they were told we're going to hell and they realize no they're actually they love Jesus too and and so I think there are a lot of factors that that play a part in sending someone on that path and so I would just encourage anyone listening to to base what believe about the world on what's objectively true and and on evidence on reason and then and then build a right practice from there Lisa I guess you've seen you know a lot of your friends and other people in Christian ministry who've gone on a similar journey to you how often do you bump into people who have taken the I guess that the path that ELISA does and and what do you think about that statement she made about the idea that you know progressive Christianity doesn't produce converts in a sense because that's an interesting perspective on it I suppose if you're just looking at the kind of that at that level does it you know is it is it just the place where more a more conservative evangelical form of Christianity kind of resides eventually if it if it passes into that but it doesn't tend to grow new converts in that sense from from from the world around and maybe that's just not even important to you at this point in your journey just just be interested in your thoughts on that Lisa yeah I mean I haven't seen the studies on that so I don't that be interested I'd be interested in saying exactly what what that looks like but I also it's not a problem for me I don't I don't really care about that and I'm not saying that in putting anyone else down kind of way but I don't I don't see that as a problem in Internet of others in the journey that they've gone on would you say that you're seeing a lot of your contemporaries taking a similar path to the one you and Michael have trod yeah I do I see I mean yeah I think we you know when we were deconstructing we didn't even call it a deconstructing because we didn't know that word and then yeah we're just like we just feel like everything's falling apart and then construction so of course it's happened to so many before but just in this circle that we were in we hadn't experienced that or we weren't talking to anyone who had gone through that but now you know Michael his friend McHargue have a podcast about it and with our music and it just feels like there has been this everyone who has gone through that or is going through that there are a lot of them are finding each other so I feel like that's really beautiful it's it's again I think it's a necessary path I think we need to allow space for people to feel what they're feeling and to doubt what they're doubting and when we put a lid on that or judge that or say they shouldn't be shilling that I think that really stifles up an important part of their faith or a lack of faith or whatever wherever their path is going there has been so little room in the Christian circles for for doubt and for questions and for theirs it seems like so much of it house has been built on certainty and in arriving at that like yeah you can don't question for a while but you need to arrive at some kind of certainty so I see where a lot of people who have been where we've been I see them coming to some really beautiful truths and discovering that they don't need to transcend the body to find God but it's this inward God is always a found within and what I found was the more inward I go the more because I never I never allowed that I should clarify like I always felt like this was the flesh is evil right I mean the Bible talks about that desks we have to cast off the flesh so much about the body so then why was the body made if this is intrinsically bad so I feel like for the first time in my life a few years ago I would inward and found the cosmos source Divine Mother God within and then that is what to the realization of connection ball of all things I don't know if that ya really answer your question but it is it is where you've got to obviously in your journey obviously as I said a very different place to where at least it is I mean just just as we close out ELISA I think you know you've both been so polite to each other on today's programme and that's that's great because but but in a way IIIi got the sense that maybe Lisa was questioning at some level the the certainty aspect of maybe the way way how you approach things so unless you you you need things to be to be true you need you know there to be kind of really good evidence that this this is part of Christianity is true you you want you you're open to people questioning and having doubts at least it says they don't necessarily have to arrive a you know a certain place in the end maybe that's okay for them just to kind of exist in that space for you know for the whole of their life for you obviously I get the feeling you do need to see you know for you it's important that people don't stay in the doubt and deconstruction phase but but do come back to a some sort of a level of certainty in in Christian faith well I would hope that the point of deconstructing your beliefs would be to reconstruct to something true you know and and I I think that often people have a wrong definition of the word faith I do not define faith as certainty I don't think that's how the Bible uses the word I also don't think faith and doubt are opposites I think fitting the opposite of faith is unbelief it's not doubt and I know 100 percent agree with Lisa that we need but the church needs to do better in providing places for Christians to come with their honest doubt so that is something I did have as a kid I of course I didn't have any honest doubts because I get I like I said I didn't really doubt tell he was an adult but I never felt like there was a question I couldn't ask or that anything was off-limits my parents were just really open about that kind of stuff and so I feel like that was such a helpful part of my formation as a Christian and I've seen it I've seen what she's talking about where you shouldn't think those things ask those questions here and and part of what even we as apologists do is try to try to provide answers and and ways to think about things that address people's real questions but I think at the end of the day everybody needs to figure out within themselves am I asking a question just so I can find the next question or actually do I really want the answer and I think I was the kind of person where I really was asking questions seeking answers and so do I you know does that mean that it's certainty no I wouldn't call it that I think the Bible describes faith as trust and over and over and over again in Scripture we see Jesus being so tender with doubters but always offering evidence you know John the Baptist in prison doubting are you the one or should we look for another and Jesus senses disciples back saying you know tell John what you've seen and he performed miracles as evidence for John's doubt and so I think that I agree that that faith is not certainty and it's not doubt either faith is trust based on on evidence and I think that there is a really good reason to trust that the Christian worldview is true and I think it brings a great deal of stability and and hope because jesus said he's the truth and so as a person who follows Jesus and loves Jesus I love truth because Jesus is truth thank you so I would yeah go ahead sorry they said good thing for me that I would differ on that would be you said trust oh yes I feel like that is what I've I've been learning so much more of even this past year but trust that I I just don't know so trust on evidence I don't trust the evidence because what is the evidence the evidence is the reality that only I can understand and see and I this reality this plane that we're all experiencing is not the ultimate reality so I'm it with that argument I'm trusting the evidence it's actually recommend objective evidence so like for me trust and faith is all about just the letting go I felt like this past year I got it was kind of funny because like I'm in terms of like Enneagram I'm an immigrant too and I always wanted my husband is in Graham five are you are you I'm if I don't know increasingly people's reference there and I feel like I really fit around it but so like what five can get like really caught up in their mind and in their thoughts and it's hard for them to be in their body and intagram to like very typical would be like I'm the helper I like to help help people very those are very Blake it Blake it statements opposed to numbers and obviously any constructs we hold lightly it's just another construct to like help people understand their personality type so but when I found out about the numbers I was like oh I want to be a five that sounds like people just so kind of in their head that sounds more mysterious and like the I don't know I don't know why I mean well obviously I'm drawn I'm drawn to a five that's what married to doesn't make sense for me but I feel like this last year I got more caught up in my head than I ever have been mm-hmm and this is after deconstruction yeah sure so for me it became more about like just reality what is reality what is underneath all the things my brain is putting together just to help me survive sounds like there might be another book in the works in a few years time you know yeah yeah I feel like I've been experience is so much about the body and I might be writing about the body next well but when we talk about faith and truth to me that's all faith is letting go of anything that ice I know yeah our time is unfortunately drawing to a close so can I just say thank you both for a really great conversation and thank you very much sorry there was many things we didn't cover from the book as well Lisa obviously a lot of it kinda covers the experience of having Lucy who has Down syndrome and and that's again very beautiful beautifully put in the book but I I will I will leave that to one side for now and say thank you for being with me on the show today and get the book if you possibly can do go and check out both of the websites and podcasts of my guests today ELISA Childers and Lisa Ganga that's at ELISA Childers comm and Lisa Ganga comm Today Show available to listen back to on our own podcast but from the moment ELISA and ELISA thank you very much for joining me on the show yeah thanks Justin for more conversations between Christians and skeptics subscribe to the unbelievable podcast and for more updates and bonus content sign up to the unbelievable newsletter you

Channel: Unbelievable?

Views: 93,754

Rating: 4.8162241 out of 5

Keywords: unbelievable, justin brierley, premier christian radio, christianity, atheism, philosophy, faith, theology, god, gungor, apologetics, alisa childers

Id: So9NJ72_IiI

Length: 70min 50sec (4250 seconds)

Published: Wed Sep 18 2019