Why Keep the Faith? Why Leave it? Jon Steingard and Sean McDowell Continue the Conversation

thanks for joining us today this is a conversation that my friend John Stein guard and I have been looking forward to for a long time many of you that are here already I see a bunch of comments already people joining us which is great probably know that John and I had a conversation recently on unbelievable radio and last I checked it got a ton of hits a lot of people I think John really appreciated the substance of our conversation but also just the respect and I think mutuality between us which I know will continue today to take a step back those of you who are just jumping on I first heard of John I was familiar with the band hot Nelson and maybe a few weeks ago he wrote a 2,200 word post on Instagram it was thoughtful and really heartfelt about just kind of announcing his departure from the faith his doubts his questions his experience and I read that I thought you know what i'ma write a response and maybe he'll possibly read it so I wrote it as respectfully and thoughtfully as I could we got invited on unbelievable had a conversation with each other and afterwards were just texting having a conversation thought you know what it'd be awesome if we could continue this for a few reasons number one right now there's so many people there's just so much division in our culture of people with different beliefs that we can come on and see the world differently just have a mutual conversation would be beneficial but second these are really important issues that we're talking about here so John I want to invite you back it's really good to see you thanks for carving out the time to have this conversation what's up Sean it's nice to be here with you again man and I I I feel like I just I I'm really enjoying like you tweeted earlier today you're like my friend John Stein guard and I was like yeah we are I do feel like we are becoming friends and and I love that like this brought us together and to have conversations like this and more so thanks man well thanks for saying that somebody gave me a big compliment they're like way to lead the conversation that was awesome I said you know and I was half I mean it takes two and I've had a lot of conversations people all over the map and I thought just the way you handle yourself your sincerity your thoughtfulness generosity the model for the way these conversations can take place so for those of you listening this is not a debate if you're expecting John to raise the toughest questions and own this apologist or me to put them in his place wrong place but we're also we want to talk substance and we want to talk about the issues that unite us and maybe some ways we see the world differently so what we're gonna do is we're gonna jump in we have a few questions for each other and then we're gonna take some questions from those of you who are watching and we're each gonna jump in and just give our thoughts on them so before we do that I'd love to hear where some of you are just coming in from and joining us tell us where you're watching this live stream from would be a lot of fun and so you know I just saw greetings from Kenya that is awesome I don't even know what time it is in Kenya but it's probably tomorrow we're glad that you are here Virginia this channel is brought to you in partnership with Biola apologetics so if you are new to the channel make sure you hit subscribe because we have some other interviews coming up and some videos you will not want to miss John one of the things that came out of our conversation was that you described and correct me if I'm wrong about this you described a real experiential faith growing up that was really rooted in experiences and then later on come into more of a theology kind of intellectual approach to the faith is that fair before I jump in with a question about your experience yeah I think that's that's really fair one thing that interested me is I thought about this is can you tell me what are some of the defining experiences you had about your faith that you would say maybe made your faith real maybe your times like this is how I knew that it was true to me that you would just point back to at the time that were really significant to you yeah I mean I think you know in general in general I I remember you know as a musician and I this probably is not surprising that like worship was a really big part of my faith and I felt like I felt like I had a lot of moments where I really felt like I I was experiencing the presence of God in worship and and and that was a that that was sort of a big connection point for me you know when we're talking about experience experiencing God and a sort of experiential sense of faith yeah I think I started to notice as I as I started because I came up in sort of this culture of like secular is bad so everything I knew was like Christian everything and so I didn't really you know I remember burning a Nirvana CD when I was are you serious oh yeah oh yeah so I remember you know when when Christian culture started to move away from this very black and white like secular is bad type type thing which I think that move was good I remember going to a Coldplay concert and and feeling so many of those same feelings and going like oh my gosh like this experience that I've had in church I'm experiencing at a Coldplay concert and so that that put me in a place where I started to wonder and I don't have an answer to this question by the way am I also experiencing God at a Coldplay concert or are these two examples of music and emotion sort of affecting us emotionally and experientially and have we just gotten good at that in church and Coldplay is also very good at that you know like and I don't have an answer to that question yeah those are very fair experiences I grew up in was never a rock star like we talked about but I went to all the huge conferences and backstage saw my dad speaking at tens of thousands and hung out with Petra and newsboys and all those guys just growing up knew them and I remember experiencing that kind of that conferences or at events and worship also in nature um but what we agreed what one one question I do have about your experience is as I look back at my faith I had kind of a my life I had somewhat of a crisis of faith about 18 19 years old where I was really reading all these atheists of skeptics I started thinking gosh what if I'm wrong I don't know if I believe this there's really smart people who are raising questions I can't answer and it was unsettling to me and it was also during that time not only that I had intellectual questions but I also remember becoming deeply aware of my own sinfulness and the details behind this I won't go into but whether or not I was a Christian before that only God knows but to me there's a sense where the defining experience of being a Christian is the sense that I am a sinner before God and God's grace poured into me and forgave me that trumps all the other experiences that I had and to me that's the defining experience if we're going to talk about experience of being a Christian and I'm curious is that an experience that that you had that was defining for you what was that light grown up was there a sense of like oh my gosh Jesus got it right and I say that article this week you read about human brokenness I know that plays into it but mmm I'd be curious to hear your experience of grace growing up yeah I do remember around the age of you know probably 18 or 19 I was involved at church and I was involved in worship teams and and I was you know I was starting to kind of I was starting to somewhat date at the time I guess maybe it was maybe 18 or 19 and I remember just like feeling like a feeling like I wasn't like making anything of my life like I remember I was I was trying to it's that sort of post high school confusion that you sometimes people sometimes experience we're like well what now and I I was thinking about going to college and then I didn't do that and I wanted to do music but nothing was working and I remember just feeling like I am NOT I am NOT capable of of making a meaningful life for myself and so I need to dedicate myself to something bigger than than that and and I remember saying to God like okay god I'm obviously not very good at this so if you know if you can do more with my life than I can do then then I would like to sign that was sort of the closest thing I can remember having to what your to what your you're describing what I can ask one more question about sure yeah your experience I'm interested in then we'll jump in I know you have some questions and people are already lining up here great by the way I see discerning dad a friend I see folks from Houston Washington State Hawaii Massachusetts Colorado Springs a lot of folks interests in this conversation which is great when I jump or you before you go on to that I have a thought about what you just said that it might be that might be meaningful like I think that because you described sin and the awareness awareness of sin in your in your life as being like a really pivotal realization right am i yeah and so I feel like when I hear the word sin the connotation that I have that in my experience and in my life is this it's sort of this oppressive thing where I remember I just I feel like it was something that was always talked about like your sinful your bad your your you know your desires are bad and your your thoughts are bad and and and I remember you through this process of deconstruction the last like year or two I've sort of like pushed back against that like no like there are things about people that are also good and and I and I feel like sometimes that culture of like telling you know like Richard Rohr talks about like we're and we're telling people were talking people we're telling people to have hope while we're damming everything inside is how he's how he says and but so I sort of pushed back for a while against that concept of sin like I was really frustrated with it but I had sort of a realization more recently I was reading this psychologist Carl Jung I don't know if you're familiar with him but uh I mean it's it's a tough read because he's really smart but he talks about the shadow and and and that you can't really find your way to being an up ending person in this world until you come face-to-face with the darkest parts of yourself and and someone who believes that that stuff is not there inside them is not going to be able to live a fully like like quote-unquote good life because they're denying the darkness that's inside them so heave just from a purely psychological point of view it's like you need to face that stuff and be aware of it before you can live in you know the wholeness of what it means to be human and to be good in the world that when I read that I was like well that kind of sounds like awareness of sin so maybe we're talking about the same thing to a degree you know and and and that opened me up to you know maybe maybe all of my desire to push back against the whole idea of sin was was a reaction to maybe some of my experiences I think I can relate to your experience in the sense of how many Christian conferences and events I went to where the message is constantly you're bad the music is bad you've fallen short and it can feel pressive when somebody doesn't have a real experience of that in their life and they're just not ready to recognize it so I think unfortunately we've preached an unbalanced message that just is probably really legalistic rather than rooted in what Jesus really taught so I think for me it sounds like Carl Jung I'm not familiar this exact work although I know some of his writings is hitting on a similar point of what Jesus said like in mark chapter 7 when he said you know it's not what you put into the body that defiles you it's what comes out hmm and the heart is broken and the heart is wicked and I think for me part of the experience was I remember reading the story about Henry now and a Catholic priest and he talked about how he he gave up being and I think was Harvard and Yale to go be a priest for a handicapped community in in Canada and I really respect his is riding his approach and used he wrote this historic called the return of prodigal son and he said he always thought that he was this prodigal son and then when he's looking at the painting the prodigal son by Rembrandt which I have in the law and looking at it right there he realized somebody said to me you're not the prodigal son you're the older son mm-hmm froze and thought oh my goodness now if you look at that story when I read this I thought I grew up in this Christian world the kind you're describing and there was some legalism in the broader world I really don't think my parents push this to me but I experienced it as a whole so I thought it was a lot better than people John I thought hey I don't drink I don't smoke I don't hang with girls that do I listen to Depeche Mode annoying go boy go but not Nirvana you know not these terrible bands like and I'm glad you laughed at that in in my eyes I had ways of justifying that I was a lot better than other people because I didn't do those bad sins but then there was this realization oh my word I'm like the older brother Here I am just as lost and sinful in my self-righteousness if not more than somebody who is out doing the wild things the prodigal son did so to me it was that experience where grace really came and I realized oh my goodness I need a Savior because of my brokenness I need to be moving again I can't fix myself that's the kind of experience that many ways solidified my intellectual faith that kind of humbled me before the Lord so I was just curious I think Young is probably indicating a certain kind of thing but does that resonate with you do you feel like you had that kind of experience are you looking in go and I'm not sure if I had that or if I do you like tell me what you think when you hear me kind of share that part of my story yeah ya know it it makes me go it makes me feel like like there's like there's there's still something to the idea of sin I think I I think I don't like the word if I'm being honest like I think if there's there's just connotations that I have in my mind without where okay but but when I hear you talk about you know the sort of shadow and you know guys like Jordan Peterson talk about how you have to come to grips with like the monster that's inside you that's capable of horrible things like like he talks about he talks about Auschwitz and people wonder like how could anybody do what what those German officers did to other human beings and and jordan peterson says the questions not how did they do it the question is how is it that we all aren't doing that look like you know so so I I sort of have come if anything I feel like I've come back around to to understanding the conversation about sin and relating to it a little more because because I got a I found writings that talked about it without using the word sin does that does that make sense it does I one of the breakthroughs for me is that I think sometimes in legalistic circles we do in evangelical circles is sin are these rules and laws that we break yeah they're purely things we do or we don't do so if you listen to Nirvana you're a sinner if you don't listen to this or you do that with your body with your time it's very rules based and hence legalistic for me it was a sense that now sin is technically missing the mark but it's also relational at its core and at its heart so I do something wrong against my wife I say the wrong thing I don't treat her the right way I've done something wrong but the root of it is that I've broken this relationship with her and not treated her as a human being and as a my wife as I should it's that relational dimension to sin that I think is often missed in evangelical churches that makes it fundamentalist so when we broaden it and rather than getting rid of the word maybe redeem the word and say okay the Christian story is about a God who wants me in relationship with human beings and sin isn't just you know falling short and disapproving this God so he sent up there with his finger going hey shame on you I can't believe you did this you listener on music is godlike the father in the prodigal son again who's saying I love you and I welcome you home and I mourn that you've made these decisions because it breaks the relationship that we had together for me I think that was some of the breakthrough when it came to sin that sheds some of the legalism that maybe I had heard and experienced certain Christian circles yeah that's often okay good stuff let me let me ask you this I'm curious what I hope this is all right I'm curious to know what do you miss most about the Christian faith and then I want to go to your questions then we'll take some live sure that's a that's a good question I I think I you okay so this is this is sort of an interesting thing that I've come across since you know in the last month I think when I was a part of you know church and Christian culture a lot more and maybe this is because I'm Canadian - I don't know if there's an element of that but if you're growing up in Canada if you say you're a Christian that's like not the norm that that is that is you're saying something right I think sometimes in in certain parts of the US it's it's maybe more normalized if you say you're a Christian people might be like oh yeah you know so am i but I I always looked at the world through this lens of like Christianity is this like island over here and then there's the whole world over there and there's this feeling of sort of like other 'no secretes this feeling of like insular community or like oh these are my people you know like if you're a Packers fan it's like these are my Packers fans right and and so not not to demean Packers fans or Christians if that comparison but in that order Packers fans and then Christian Order but I think since since since stepping back from Christianity I've noticed actually that that that people that step away from Christianity it actually can feel quite lonely and and Christianity at least in America is so ingrained in so many parts of culture that you know especially since I grew up in Christian culture like most of my friends are Christians still I sometimes feel like I'm a little bit like oh now I'm on the outside of this like community and you know I put myself there it's no I'm not blaming anybody for that and and I've still felt incredibly loved by my Christian friends but I think community was that it definitely feels like there's a bit of a lack there and you don't see a lot of I mean I don't call myself an atheist I don't consider myself an atheist but you don't see a lot of atheist churches and community groups right like they've tried there's been a few movements they haven't lasted do you think there's not enough there to cohere them you know what that's a very interesting question I think I think the higher calling of the church is greater than the higher calling of an atheist church and that the community in itself is not enough to get people together to sacrifice and build and grow in a way it is now of course I would say the spirit is a part of it but even that aside I don't think on an atheist worldview you have objective morality you have objective purpose you have free will so I don't think there's a deep enough calling within it to make it work even though that yearning for community like you're describing is deep and it's significant and I think it's written into our DNA but by the way what would you call or define yourself if not atheists man I I have had so much trouble figuring that out because because even you know like even if someone were to ask me are you a Christian it feels weird to say yes with some of the steps that I've said recently and some of the steps that I've felt over the last little while but it also feels weird to say no because because I've said yes my whole life and and and so you know I've had a few people like you know say oh well John's an atheist now and I'm like oh I don't know that that's true and then I guess agnostic is probably the closest to it but but you know I've heard people use the term hopeful agnostic and you know if there's a if there's a range if I can lean that way I mean the truth is Shawn that like I think there's a lot about life that I don't I still don't understand and and and there's a lot there's a lot of layers of depth and meaning to exhume in existence and um and I don't feel right about shutting out the I shut out the idea that God might be there in some form and in fact I feel like I've been more obsessed than ever with trying to figure out what that is and and you know what or who that is you know it's weird the last month the last month I've thought about God more than I have my entire life really well I mean just I mean odd to God or the idea of God or something you know um I really thought that sorry I really thought that no sorry I really thought that when I posted that post it would be like okay like now I can move on with my life and and I and I sort of have found that that when I cleared the board which I did I found I found that I I wanted to it left a void that I want to fill with something and I don't know what that something is and so you know I've mentioned that to a few people and they've said oh then you're on your way back to God and I'm like well if I'm on my way to God it's not back to God because wherever I was you know it's not place that I want to go back to but but I want I want to live a life of meaning and purpose and and and leave the world better than I found it and I want to I want to serve other people because I feel like it's the most fulfilling way to live and and I find myself asking well why do I want so yeah so you you can see why I have trouble with the labels and I don't know what to call mess that's totally fair do you uh do you find yourself in this search reading like I want to actually know what Jesus thought and read the Gospels or is it more like I just want to read stuff outside of the Christian world and get a different perspective I think for a long time I wanted to read stuff outside because I was I was instantly suspicious of anything labeled Christian Right I'm just like I've heard that stuff my whole life I want to experience stuff other than that and you know I definitely studied and read a lot of stuff outside of Christianity in the last couple of years and one of the things that I'm super fascinated by is is the fact that like if all if all religions are darts and there's a dartboard like Vic cluster in places you know like like Buddhism bully you know one of the fundamental tenets of Buddhism is that is that compassion is the essence of the right path so compassion for other people is like a deep-rooted belief in Buddhism and it's it the posture is like it it's it's the best way to live is to make the suffering of others and alleviating the suffering of others your responsibility and and I read that and I'm like well that kind of sounds like the story of Jesus doesn't it like so so I yeah I see I see I see these things clustering and I see I see certain fundamental things about what it means to be human and to exist and and and what a good life looks like and I and I I find myself wondering okay like I don't I don't think that when it comes to Christianity I can throw the whole thing out which is what I think for a time I wanted to do and and I'm I'm finding that parts of it are sticky if that picks yeah so I guess I'm curious when you say they cluster together when you look and say Buddhism Christianity there's similarities of like compassion similarities of caring for others alleviating suffering but when you get down to it it's hard to think of two worldviews that are more fundamentally different and this is some of ravi zacharias stuff sure that you read like what does it mean to be human and buddhism it's anata there's a no soul in the christian world of you it's a soul that's in enduring over time the distinctions and reincarnation and resurrection are fundamentally different even the nature of sin in the afterlife the character of God etc so tonight I agree with all that so you see similarities kind of on the fringes so to speak but it's heart I guess I'm getting at are you saying you're comfortable going the direction of kind of pickin and shoes in different worldviews I'm not trying to put words in your fine your for is it like what what does that mean that you see similarities because I sees those on the surface but I Pro down to it it's like radical differences but to learn them yep yeah one of the things so one of the things everything that you said about the differences in the like the beliefs I see that and agree with all of that the the one thing I noticed though is that all of those things are are sort of like esoteric like they're sort of like things that you can believe or not believe but they're but they're not they're not pragmatic like it's I guess what I'm getting at is the core of of what Buddhism and Christianity say your life should look like as far as pragmatics how should you live how should you walk out your you know should you treat other people those those sort of pragmatics what should I do with my life type questions though those ones I see a clustering but yes but beneath beneath that of like what do we believe about the nature of reality there there's some differences for sure and you know I'm also not a I'm not a Buddhist either I my mother-in-law my mother-in-law in the beginning of all this she before you know when we were beginning our conversations with family about you know our journey of faith and deconstruction and stuff my mother-in-law cracked a joke as long as you're not a Buddhist and and and I was in the middle of reading like a bunch of Buddhist stuff at the time and I was like oh oops even you know as I think about it last common boozled and we'll move along that see me you're in practice there would be some differences like the kind of meditation turn it Joshua talks about like meditate on the Word of God day and night would mean focus on scripture in grain those truths in your life whereas a Buddhist meditation in practice would be very very different in terms of emptying the mind you know almost focusing on the sound of one clap in the forest kind of get rid of the logical compartments it would seem to me that the spiritual practices although we're supposed to be compassionate towards people would still be pretty fundamentally different yeah I mean meditation is a part of both of them though but they're different kinds of meditation water is supposed to empty your mind and the other is to focus on Scripture and God's characters and repeat it so one is mindful and one is mind less so to speak and that's not even a judgement about which is better that's to say the word meditation is there but these are pretty radically different practices that stem from the worldview commitments sure so anyways we did talk we could talk that are watching this and not getting too hung up but yeah we're rocking we're like halfway through this thing and we want to get to questions I know you had a few questions or comments that you wanted to kind of throw around with me a little bit yeah well you know funny enough with the Buddhist stuff we actually sort of addressed one I was I was sort of I had thoughts about whether there are elements of truth in all religions that are pointing to to some similar you know fundamental truths about existence and stuff like that we kind of covered that so I did have a question sort of about the Bible and and literal versus you know metaphorical truth and and that's something that I've thought a lot about because I mean relating to what I said earlier about you know feeling like I can't throw out all of Christianity and parts of it are sticky uh I've actually like since taking a step back and going like well maybe I don't believe that the Bible is you know the inerrant Word of God anymore so if if people wrote this and they were sort of like writing about their existence and trying to figure out questions of what it means to be human and who is God what is God I've actually been reading the Bible a lot more recently yeah and I'm seeing it in in it's coming alive for me and some new ways but one of the things I've thought a lot about is is it is is the Bible sort of encapsulating and our tendency to cherish it as Christians is that in caps is is that a basically a way of of transmitting our values from generation to generation you know these stories have so much meaning and and you know I know some people believe that every word in the Bible is literal and and other people interpret you know certain passages it's like oh that's a metaphor or whatever but I was kind of curious what your feeling was on that in general and we can get into some specifics but but kind of how you view that duality of literal versus metaphorical true when it comes to the Bible it's a great question by the way I see a few questions popping up here by natthew winter and Pablo we will come come to your question yeah and due time I think so there's a lot of questions here about inerrancy and so let me focus on the metaphorical verses in general yeah so the Bible you know this is 66 different books written by different authors at different times to different audiences and different languages and different genres so one of the mistakes I think we make is we take books that are meant to be say law and read them not as if they're actually law or take books like revelation to talk about beasts and dragons that are apocalyptic and there's many metaphors in there and read them as if they're historical and little moon mm-hmm now in some cases I think it's really easy to know what the genre is like I think proverbs is obvious it's a short quippy saying that gives wisdom Psalms is obvious they're songs I would argue books like the Gospels are very obvious these are like biographies ancient biographies of a historical person I think Paul's letters are obvious but that I think there's some books that are a little tougher books like Genesis clearly there's history in a ton of it and I think at the beginning but how we make sense of some of those first few chapters I mean there's endless debate on this and I don't really have my mind fully made up on some of those particular x' i would argue books like revelation what exactly is the genre here and how do we interpret this so bottom line is when we read the bible i think in some sense we should read it like we do any other book and try to say who wrote it who's the audience who's written to and what are the rules of interpretation for that piece of literature so the way we interpret a song you know this is a songwriter there's metaphorical and there's poetic language it's clearly not meant to be taken literally would be different than say the book of Joshua which is historical so 30,000 foot view my answer would be there's some metaphor there's some riddle there's some poetry and there's some straightforward history and theology just because we don't always know where those lines are drawn doesn't mean there's not a lot of cases where they're very clearly drawn that I think we can infer from namely as it relates to Jesus so last thing I'll sound to keep going is I kind of began with the person of Jesus and the history around them and then work back to some of the other genres tell me what you think is that we were looking for me to say did I miss ya no that's that's great I think I think at one point I was sort of wondering about you know I wasn't sure how clearly you delineated some of those things and and I mean the thing that you said that I really appreciated was like you said you're not quite settled on maybe certain ones you're like I don't know how much of that is metaphor or literal um did I understand that right or in certain passages and that's right see and that like that is the kind of thing that makes conversations like this possible because because if if you had this like sense oh no I know exactly every verse I know whether it was literal or metaphorical and I'm certain then then it kind of puts us in a place where like I don't know where our conversation can go right and that happens with a lot of people that have these yeah I'm certain and and on both sides people just have talking points that are being repeating like this guy heard something Christopher Hitchens said and he's gonna try and zing-zing the pastor and then you know like anyway so so I appreciate that um with with regards to like the the New Testament I've been learning about like the early church and and like when some of the books of the New Testament were written and I actually had someone asked this question on Instagram earlier today I thought it was a good one and you know more about this than me so I wanted to ask you one of the question was you know there was a lot of editing that happened of the Bible books taken in and out and like one book sort of referencing another book like there was you know from what I understand that the Gospels have some sources that we no longer have like are you familiar with like the Q source and you know stuff like that you're you probably way more about this stuff than me but with the person on Instagram asked me like it seemed like it was okay to edit the Bible up until a certain point and then it's not okay anymore and like you know up until about you know three three hundred a or 325 AD or whatever it was where the sort of Bible is we know it was really decided upon like how do we how do we look at the fact that there was a process that went on where these bodies this Bible was edited by human beings and then we decide it's written in stone and unchangeable but what are your what are your thoughts on that yeah this is a huge question that we could unpack in a lot of different directions I I would probably push back a little bit on the Bible being decided in 325 AD yes all of Nicaea some of those questions were more about the nature of who Jesus is being the Son of God as it relates to being man and being God those are actually some of the questions settled I would argue that when it comes to save most of the letters of Paul and the four Gospels and acts you get into the second century middle to the end of 2nd century and you have a lot of confidence on what those core essential books are out of which we get the gospel unequivocally so then there's some debate about James some debate about revelations about book the Hebrew that continues a little on after that but as a whole I don't think the church felt like we get to decide which are in and edit this however we want to the debate was which books are actually inspired and let's recognize the ones that bear the fingerprint of the divine rather than we have the authority to decide what is in and what is out I think that was more of the thinking and the reasoning that was going along here as far as editing I would need need to have some specifics about this when we look at the manuscripts in the 2nd 3rd 4th century you find manuscripts with some differences and some of these could be mistakes some of these could be editors train to clarify things but I don't find a lot of evidence for people just willy-nilly saying we can make these manuscripts say whatever we want to and we have the authority here to play with this loose until us on 4th century there's this commitment to Scripture do we know some of this by looking at some of the early church fathers and how they would quote scripture now they didn't always quote it in the way that we did today because like in Greek didn't have quotation marks but there was a sense of like accurately capturing the heart of what was written because of their Jewish heritage so much of this was written and believed to have been delivered to them by God so that's my 30,000 foot view response you might find an interesting I interviewed Peter Guri he wrote a book called myths and mistakes and New Testament textual criticism there's about - I don't know six or eight weeks ago and we walked through some of the particular zhan this and we know the Bible is written down accurately how it was copied came together anybody watching this if someone wants to copy it in the comments that interview with Peter Geryon Missa mistakes I think would be really really helpful good watch it and then we'll have a will have a conversation in depth well no we I know we have some some some questions from viewers and I want to get to that I have one more quick one for you they're cool one of the things that I've sort of stumbled on and and I think other people have as well is this this sort of specific sinner's prayer and that like if you pray this prayer accept Jesus into your heart then you're saved and it feels like there's some potential problems with with that way of looking at it like you know well I mean before we even get to that it's I guess more what I wanted to ask you is like do you feel like there's like a like from your perspective do you feel like there's like a moment where like you accept Jesus into your heart and you're saved and that's it or do you feel like it's more starting journey of going of taking your life in a different direction you know like yeah so I love this question because growing up I can't tell you how many times as a kid six eight 10 12 years old I prayed the sinner's prayer just to be sure yeah just in case I mean at every camp I was like I better just pray this just to be sure and so so many kids in the church it can become formulaic and it can be just something that you do but I don't think that takes away the legitimacy of the sinner's prayer when it's prayed by somebody heartfelt who understands in the Christian story who steps back and goes oh my goodness I am a sinner before a holy God and god I cry out for your forgiveness and your redemption come in and transform me and make me new I mean I think that kind of simple sinner's prayer where somebody recognizes holy cow I'm a sinner can't save myself Jesus give me mercy I think if somebody really understands that that is the beginning of somebody becoming a believer in Jesus Christ which means the Holy Spirit wig would come in and begin to transform them from the inside out so I don't remember I mean I prayed that so many times you know only God knows like I said earlier if I was really believer in junior high and high school and I prayed and tried to live this stuff but it really was in college where that simple sinner's prayer became so real to me and I just thought oh my goodness this is true yeah so that's why when I asked you what you missed most I think am I if I left the faith the community I mean that would be painful I'm thrilled to hear that you feel loved but you know it breaks my heart that sometimes you feel like an outsider and I can understand feeling that I think when it's all said and done if I was not a Christian anymore I think I would miss this deep sense of forgiveness and grace that to me is the most beautiful thing in in the world hmm so I don't know if that's what you're looking for the question on the sinner's prayer well I kind of I also related to that was curious like what what do you think about people that don't ever get the chance to pray that prayer or people that don't like children who died before they can speak who or people who who are in remote areas and you know no one has ever told them about Jesus like what what do you think about those people that's an awesome question let me get my two cents on this yeah and then we'll jump in just to I realize we're running out of time so I've asked a big question with not a lot of time I'm sorry well I can give you my Twitter version or might take the shirt do all those my quick answers I think God if you read Romans 1 in Romans to Romans 1 God has made himself known in creation everybody knows because the vastness and intricacy of the universe there's a creator just like a painting points towards a painter creation points towards a creator romans 2 says that every even people without like the Mosaic law given to them know the moral law because it's written upon their hearts the moral argument so I think everybody who's ever lived unless somebody just has a mental deficiency or their child and hasn't grown up yet etc has a basic awareness of this so in some ways I think if God has made himself known to everybody if some people reject that which God has made known why is God bound to give them further information about their faith when they reject that which they already know would be one question that I would ask second on top of that I have many examples of friends of mine in particular former Muslims who specifically described how they had supernatural visions of Jesus that he went above and beyond our ability in terms of ways to communicate to reveal himself to them and at all costs their family a lot what you've gone through but in a former Muslim country arguably even greater in many other cases and supernaturally God showed up and revealed himself to them so those are two quick things and then third I partly the older I get and this might not satisfy any skeptic the owner I get I'm convinced that God is good and God is just and the Bible doesn't answer that straightforward but I can trust that God is going to do that which is right because that's what it means to be God and anybody listening here you have heard you have heard the message of Jesus so we can't play off what we have heard just because some people haven't heard in that sense now that probably raises more questions in your mind give me your thoughts on that whether you're right or not and then we'll jump to questions here yeah there's a lot in there that I struggle with that we don't have the time to unpack right now but I I sort of I sort of wonder if God reveals himself you know in in nature and in creation I mean that kind of makes me boats me pulls me back to that place of like well maybe there's a lot of different faiths that are trying to get to whatever that is now I know that that's not how you feel and I respect that but that sort of leads me back to that place of going like well if God is good and and he's revealing himself to all people in in his own way I I sometimes wonder if it's possible that he's that he's doing that in all kinds of different ways and we're not you know and we're sort of think looking at it just as just one way but I know that's probably another discussion it is well some people would take what's called universalism and say God is drawing people through any religion in any path gets to God others would take a more inclusive path that says people are believing that which is revealed to them but still if they're faithful to that saved through the person of Jesus sure though even that opens up a lot of interesting questions yeah fair enough response let's go to the questions here let's see I'm gonna look let's see here if you want to state some of you are asking questions to each other so throw in there as a here we go it says John so you give your thoughts that I'll jump in would you be willing to cling to the truth of the Resurrection as you go through this process I guess the question would be more broadly what would it take for you to believe in the resurrection of Jesus I wasn't there you know and I think the writings about it or beautiful and there's a lot about Redemption that I think you know is is beautifully represented in the story of the resurrection but like how can I know right like like I answer this the same way I answer the question well where do you think you go when you die I have no idea I haven't died yet you know and with the resurrection I feel the same way I'm like I I have I don't know where I sit right now I have no way of knowing I see the value in the metaphor if it is that you know I know that's a really disappointing answer for for someone who is a Christian no I I think that's fair what's interesting to me is if Jesus did write in the grave I think it answers where we go when we die because in John 14 he said to his apostles I'm going to prepare a place for you with my father so you want to know what life is like after the grave is there somebody who's died I'm gone there and come back so if it's true it seems we would get that answer yeah well then it may be it may be it seems appropriate that I have the same unknowing answer on both questions then what would prevent you from looking at it say historically like do you look at all historical issues and say you can't know or have you probed kind of the depths of the resurrection and just said I don't find it sufficient no that's a really good question I actually have since our conversation I've been interested in reading more about that and I I don't I don't hear consensus from my point of view on on you know the the historical accuracy of the resurrection there's only a there's only a few non-christian sources I've come across that that that even really talked about Jesus and and there's some question as to whether they have been tampered with depending again depending on who you read and who you believe so I mean I think Christian scholars sometimes look at look at certain documents and say well you know lo well those people have an agenda against Christianity and then some some other people that are maybe doubters or people that don't believe we'll look at Christianity and go like well Christian scholars had a reason to embellish their story they had a reason to tell things a certain way and so III have a very hard time separating those things because they were 2000 years ago and and they've been written about by different people from different points of view and and certainly the writings of the early church were for sure people like influenced by politics I mean like I mean in in 70 AD Jerusalem was destroyed and you know and and that was a pretty fundamental thing and and the New Testament was written in Greek and anyone writing in Greek I mean only about 10% of the Romans were were able to read and write and Jesus and His disciples would have spoken Aramaic and so for them to go on and potentially learn Greek a second language and then become part of the 10% that actually were able to read and write Greek that's that's something I mean I'm not saying it's impossible but that's that's a lot so it's a lot more likely that that these were people that had potentially Roman citizenship that wrote these stories and they became Christian and and then they had a story to tell and and how much they embellished that story I have no idea hmm well we sorry that was a lot no no that's fine I this is a conversation maybe we need to come back and unpack in particular the resurrection because when we talk about being in the faith and leaving the faith at heart for me when it's all said and done if I didn't think Jesus rose from the grave and not like giving me good feelings gave me confidence but historically rose and gray with confidence I wouldn't be a Christian I mean that's really the heart of it so maybe you know I wanna go where do you get your certainty so I don't have certainty sorry where you get your suspicion yeah I actually I intentionally use the word confidence there we go I'm not certain about a lot of things and maybe this is because I'm a philosopher a nuance a whole bunch of things maybe it's cuz I'm naturally just skeptical in question almost everything that I believe and do so I think if the standard is certainty will never believe anything but I do think when we look back 2,000 years ago both the quantity and quality of evidence that we have it's sufficient to at least say there's a person named Jesus who lived we know we died we have very good reason iki was buried tomb was empty and a whole lot of people including women including the apostles including skeptics like Thomas and Paul etc said they had seen the Risen Jesus and are willing to go to the grave for that conviction and these most scholars actually agree on those essential points but they differ over how to explain them that's where some of the debate comes in and of course a piece of that is somebody's worldview that they bring to the table a natural share worldview would be very different and so that's right I would argue that it's only that Jesus rose and gray that actually can account for all the facts that we have very good confidence not certainty but very good confidence are actually true and real so that's the quick answer about how I would look at this so Gary Habermas has done some work kind of called the minimal facts theory said there are certain truths we can pull out related to the person of Jesus and we know these things are true the question is which explanation accounts for them mmm Gary Abernathy and have a rest I can I can send you this not that afterwards okay but I think to me my encouragement would be this is where the heart of the issue really is that Jesus claimed to be God he actually died when he's buried and do we have good reason to believe he appeared to people that's the heart of the question so if I didn't think that happened or they found the body of Jesus like James Cameron argued a while ago the tomb by Christian he's done so that's that's that's the heart of it let's go let me let's pull a couple of questions here yeah we're sure oh I may try to I'll try to be concise no you're you're doing great let's see let me see some questions here there's so many people talking with each with each other here throw your question in the bottom copy and paste it and we will pull it up here let's see let's see who comes up people are posts in books here all right we're gonna keep talking now is your chance there are dozens and dozens of questions it's not easy to track by the way if you're enjoying this give us a little thumbs up so it helps spread the word so other people here okay people are citing books here as well oh yeah I've gotten more book recommendations and then I could possibly do you Bella I'm sure that's fair here's here's an interesting question a magazine is your decision more emotional or intellectual or was it both yeah if for me it was definitely both and I processed them almost separately like um I do feel like there was a lot of I I talk about experiential journey and intellectual journey and I'm a reader I love to read so so that was definitely a big part of it but I would sometimes I would have an experience that would cause me to doubt something and that would make me go and read about it so it was it was it was definitely both for me it was both that's fair when I went through my question period there was an emotional component and an intellectual component I'm not sure we can separate those although I do think for a lot of people there's a temptation to cache it more intellectual because it sounds more sophisticated sure sure and emotional I think you mean I have found myself very in this lot in this time particularly very concerned with how should I live my life and and how should I spend my time and what things should I value and you know stepping back from when you grow up in Christianity you're sort of given answers to all those questions before you even get a chance to ask them and I'm I'm finding that I'm asking those questions now and and and in some in some issues coming up not that far away from where I was as a believer which is interesting here's a question for you there's two more here let's take two more chart one is from Eric strand nice doctor friend of mine who Eric I believe you're starting our ma apologetics program here at Biola soon had to give a little plug plug he said why wasn't your reading of prominent apologists like Ravi Zacharias enough to prevent you from leaving the faith what was missing in their arguments like what do you find that you would have liked to find that would have helped keep you in the faith that's a great question and I've thought about that a lot every time I read so I've been doing this thing recently where anytime someone recommends if a Christian friend of mine recommends Oh read this book because I think it'll be meaningful in this you know this weird thing whatever it is you're doing John I read I download a sample and I read the first few pages and generally within the first chapter within the first few pages I get to a point that they're taking something as fact that I don't take as fact okay and and this happens with Ravi Zacharias all the time too and and so anytime I've ever read apologetics very quickly we get to a point of divergence where I'm like whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa stop you just said that as if it's self-evident and I I'm not saying it's wrong but I don't know for a fact so that's that's why I mean in our last conversation we got back to this this sort of truths versus experience point and it feels to me and and you're welcome to push back on this it feels to me that apologetics are incredibly helpful for someone who already believes for someone who who has some experience that they're going like I know God is real I'm just trying to like I'm trying to shore up my defenses against doubt it feels like apologetics are very useful for people that are in that place but if you are doubting the whole thing it's like apologetics are building on a foundation that you don't even have and so that's why you know ICS Lewis is my favorite author and the problem of pain is another example of like I love I love CS Lewis and I read the problem of pain and like before we even barely get started I'm just like he's starting from a different place than I am and he's able to get somewhere that I don't feel like I can get from the get-go hmm does that sort of answer the question yeah it does now I wish we had time to probe what some of those differences are with apologist that's oh that would be a very interesting direction to go whether it's and I would all probably want to be more prepared that's fine a general experience is fine I think for me you know my father first wrote evidence it demands a verdict when he was trying to disprove the faith became a believer but when he actually the research resulted from that he wrote the book primarily for Christians who had questions so they could defend their faith in conversation I don't have numbers in front of me but certainly Christians find apologetics helpful I do a lot of my ministry work to help Christians who just have questions but I also tie John everywhere I go somebody says to me hey I got more in the carpenter I got evidence man's murder 30 speaker your dad speak whatever heard Ravi and that's what drew me to the faith so in terms of numbers I mean when Jesus goes out and ministers or Paul it tends to be the minority who believe anyways for whatever reason it is there's probably more Christians reading it then there are non-christians but I certainly found a lot of of non-christians who have I mean sure thousands and thousands so I I guess I would argue there's both although I don't know so yeah and I'm - I'm only speaking for myself here I I didn't want to presume to speak for everybody any but you know anybody else on that one know that that's fair here you're just a simple question that came through said John what do you think is the gospel what do I think the gut like the gospel is yeah I think that's a word that people use and I don't know that everyone means the same thing when they say it I mean I guess in the most basic form like I would think the gospel is the story of salvation through Jesus okay is that is that a fair summary oh I'm I'm not assessing or judging I think the person just wants to know how you would explain sure what the gospel is so yeah I would say the gospel is is the story of salvation through Jesus sacrifice on the cross and resurrection amen there you go you just got named in I think I guess if I did win I would only say it's it's the acceptance of grace by faith in what Jesus did on the cross which is a part of the larger story but I know you're thrown on the spot here's a here's one from shield apologetics who's posted about 13 times I think shield apologetics wants you to answer this one sure Tom this is a good one to wrap up with keeps going sent your decision have you felt the Christian community pulling you closer or push you away a bit of both I think when when I first spoke out I had a massive amount of love and support and kindness from from my Christian friends and the Christian community as a whole and I even had you know people like you like you you know want to talk to me and want to have conversation and and that's been really meaningful same time I've noticed from certain you know groups or certain people sort of a silence which is which I'm not mad about it all I understand and then I think there's also a sort of like feeling of okay like John we understood that you had to say what you you know what you were feeling but like we'd like for you to stop talking now and and I've wondered like should I stop talking now like do I is it better for everybody if I if I disappear and stop talking about this stuff and and the answer from a lot of the people that I talked to on Instagram through the DMS or in comments is no there's a lot of people out there that have the questions that I have and and I don't know where this journey is headed and Sean I hope that you know and I hope that you see that I'm really I'm not just trying to be difficult here like like I really am trying to figure out like what it means to be human and what it means to know God and what it means to live a meaningful life and I hope that I'm moving in a direction that answers those questions better and not worse right and and I know that I'm not the only person that's trying to do that and so if I can if I can be a place and and and and be a shoulder for people that are on that same journey then then I want to do that and I want to do it honestly and openly and and without a targeted destination in mind you know I I want to go where where the truth leads thing and that's what I'm trying to do well I I'll throw in my two cents in this question what do you think I think you should keep talking I think you should keep sharing I've had a lot of conversations with former believers and oftentimes their attitude is different some are really jaded and angry and I want to tear down the faith and I'm not sure how constructive that is but I've never sensed that in you even before I met you and I read your PO I just thought man alive here somebody very sincere very vulnerable and open and whether or not you ever come back to the faith you're asking the right questions and you're doing it in the right spirit and you certainly made me think about things in our audience and I know as well really appreciates it so probably there's some Christians who say to stop talking because they might feel threatened by these questions and frankly there's a lot of christians who don't know what they believe and why they believe it and the fact that you're asking these questions makes them feel threatened I'm not threatened by that I don't know all the answers and I don't have certainty but I'm confident in what I believe and I'm not afraid to have these conversations I enjoy them and so I hope you and I can have a lot more yeah the air which is there no conversation but based on a lot of the comments here let's plan and doing this again down the road that's maybe a few weeks couple months watch read some stuff come back and let's have a next layout of conversation and continue it for those of you watching if you enjoyed this please give us a thumbs up and I really hope you'll consider sharing this with a friend on Facebook on Twitter it helps us here at the chat we'll get the word out this is sponsored with Biola apologetics so this is a channel where we are trying to help you ultimately you know that Christian is true with confidence we also want to do it with the right spirit and respect towards people that see the world differently and I don't know anybody who would do this with a better spirit than you John so really appreciate you coming on again if you're new to channel make sure you hit subscribe because we have Preston sprinkle coming on soon my father's coming back we did a show with him John where I asked him all these just radical experiences of his life that if I didn't know him I would honestly have a hard time believing but I've seen it in his life and he just shared these crazy experiences of debating Marxist back in Latin America in the 60s and 70s and Wow you know he's been doing this a long time so we got a great response on that and he's gonna come back in August and we have a bunch of other people lined up so make sure you hit that subscribe button by the way if you watching this probably there's a good chance you enjoy apologetics I teach at Biola and we have a Master of Arts apologetics program and we would love to have you consider coming and studying with us if you just have an undergrad degree in anything you could potentially get in the program it's a distance program and we have full classes on the problem of evil resurrection of Jesus biblical view of sexuality theology etc now the master scares you also have a certificate program where we actually have a team that'll kind of walk you through formally learning apologetics and there's a big discount go code below for joining us so with all that said I promised my son I go play hoops with him so I got a run John really appreciate it let's talk soon I think John everybody and for for joining us

Channel: Dr. Sean McDowell

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Id: LdNQN18jRTU

Length: 69min 40sec (4180 seconds)

Published: Thu Jul 02 2020