An Evangelical Theology Professor's Thoughts on Catholicism (w/ Dr. Gregg R. Allison)

well hey everyone welcome or welcome back to my channel my name is austin and i am so excited to be sharing this interview with you today today i will be interviewing dr greg r allison and i really think you're going to enjoy it we're going to be talking about an evangelical assessment of roman catholic theology now generally i try to let people from their own side express their opinions and i really value that and that's the majority of these videos but sometimes i think it's helpful to see how other the other side if you will interprets what's being taught and oftentimes this comes out anyway in my interviews that if i'm having a catholic on it's somewhat inevitable that at some point they'll give their perspective on evangelical theology and what they see as its shortcomings and vice versa and today i wanted to allow dr allison to give his perspective as an evangelical on as an evangelical professor to who has studied these things on what he sees in catholicism because i think it's helpful to know how your side again is being interpreted so i really hope you enjoy it but before we get to it i just want to say real quick thanks to my patreon subscribers and merch buyers who make this channel possible especially to my patrons who give monthly to make this channel not only sustainable but allow it to continue to grow and expand if you would like to become a patron you can do so using the link in the description down below i'd also like to thank today's sponsor kindred kindred is a company that makes these beautiful bibles featuring incredible full page photographs and will really help you re-engage with the bible whether you're new to bible reading or you just want to spice up your bible reading i would really encourage you to check them out you can do so by going to kindred kindredapostle.com and use the code gospel 10 for 10 off your order today in any case i hope you guys enjoy this interview and here it is well hey everyone thank you so much for being here today i'm joined by dr greg r allison dr allison has a phd in theology from trinity evangelical divinity school and teaches at the southern baptist theological seminary he has 18 years of ministry experience as a staff member of campus crusade where he worked in campus ministry as well as serving as a missionary in italy and switzerland he also co-pastored a church in lugano switzerland he is the author of historical theology an introduction to christian doctrine sojourners and strangers the doctrine of the church roman catholic theology and practice and evangelical assessment the unfinished reformation what unites and divides catholics and protestants after 500 years and most recently the holy spirit theology for the people of god as well as other books he is the secretary of the evangelical theological society and currently serves as the book review editor for theological historical and philosophical studies at the journal of the evangelical theological society dr allison is a pastor as well at sojourn church east dr allison thank you so much for being here thanks for hosting me on gospel simplicity i look forward to our time together it is absolutely a pleasure and i am looking forward to it as well i wanted to start off by asking how did you end up essentially as where you are so people heard a little bit of your bio but specifically for today as we talk about catholicism and the reformation how did you end up as an evangelical professor writing on these topics so uh in your introduction you noted that my wife and i spent 18 years on the staff of campus crusade for christ now called crew and our very first assignment right after we got married was to help launch the crew ministry at the university of notre dame so 80 percent of the students with whom we came into contact uh were roman catholics so we developed an interest in knowing more about roman catholicism read books obviously interacted with students and some of the faculty so i grew to have a real burden for working in uh in a roman catholic context uh we spent a number of years seven years total in italy and in the italian speaking part of switzerland and while in rome we actually were embedded in a catholic lay evangelization movement called alpha and omega the christ may be all in all and so we rubbed shoulders with priests and catholic lay people all the time and uh again just uh really enjoyed that ministry uh when i was working on my phd i took a class at trinity evangelical divinity school on roman catholic theology uh actually went up to a catholic seminary near chicago and took a class on the documents of vatican ii and so just just really concentrated in this area and ever since when i was at uh western seminary in portland oregon and now that i'm at southern seminary in louisville about every other year i teach a class on roman catholic theology and practice wow well thank you so much for sharing all of that and you will be in good company here on my channel where it is very diverse and we have many catholics that will be watching this and so this seems like an area that is very comfortable for you to talk on and and uh i'm particularly excited about being on gospel simplicity for that reason so thank you for inviting me yeah it's my pleasure and so i think when we talk about this topic of catholicism immediately the the reformation comes up it's almost inevitable and it makes sense and so from your perspective why did the reformation need to happen uh it's uh it's a great question obviously it's a complex issue but uh certain things we should focus on uh just first a just a brief history of what was going on prior to the reformation in terms of some historical things having to do with the bankruptcy of the roman catholic church at the time so the papacy had been hijacked to avignon france and spent 70 years in captivity according to martin luther there that was a really desperate time for the catholic church in its hierarchy uh it led to what we call the great schism at one point there were two popes at another point there were three popes of course that was disastrous for the church uh at the same time we have an elevation of the hierarchy the papacy the cardinals bishops and their power over laypeople there are a lot of offices in the church that are being filled through the process of nepotism uh there's the bank rolling of the roman catholic church by the sale of indulgences and so these historical factors really uh help to prompt the reformation and then of course you have a lot of uh what uh calvin luther zwingli would would call doctrinal deviations a real emphasis on merit theology so cooperating with god's grace engaging in good works in order to merit eternal life and then a three-fold structure of authority scripture tradition and the magisterium the teaching office of the church seven sacraments that would infuse grace thereby transforming the character of the catholic faithful so that they could engage in good deeds and merit eternal life uh the whole issue of transubstantiation had uh been uh broached and and had been uh argued against earlier by wycliffe huss people like that and then uh justification that was seen as a lifelong process of salvation ending for most people in purgatory uh and so all these uh doctrinal deviations also called forth a reformation well thank you for that and i think it's i i like where you started with that of we have to look at the history that the reformation didn't kind of come out of nowhere as though luther woke up one day and decided let's do something radically new that hadn't been influenced by anyone that came before him and i think sometimes that can be almost a ground level understanding that this kind of popped out of nowhere but i think it is helpful to situate it in its historical context like you did there great thanks yeah so i wanted to ask you've titled one of your books and people heard this probably in the introduction the unfinished reformation and so at from your perspective in what ways was the reformation successful and in what ways does work still need to be done yeah a great uh dual aspect question so in terms of success the reformation was successful in that the in that protestantism broke from the roman catholic church and corrected its errors now protestantism agreed with the roman catholic church that the church is one holy catholic and apostolic but the reformers viewed the catholic church as so bankrupt and so uh doctrinally disoriented that it needed to be reformed so while still maintaining that the church is one holy catholic and apostolic uh the protestant reformers pointed out two marks of a true church how do we distinguish a true church from a false church that is in their view the roman catholic church two marks would be the preaching of the word of god so preaching of the gospel with a hearing and obedience and then administration of two sacraments not seven but two sacraments baptism and the lord's supper these being the only two sacramental ordinances ordained by jesus christ himself and then uh to add to these two marks of the church there were the five solas so scripture alone is our authority uh salvation is by grace alone not intermixed with uh works and merit faith alone not faith plus baptism for example uh christ alone uh not christ and the church and then all done to the glory of god alone not uh not god and mary and the saints and things like that so it was successful in terms of that in terms of the unfinished aspect of the reformation uh many doctrinal differences continue today so the roman catholic church is still grounded on a three-fold authoritative structure of scripture plus tradition that's divine revelation and then the official interpreter of scripture and tradition which is the magisterium or teaching office of the church there's still broad disagreement in terms of justification yes i am familiar with the joint declaration on the doctrine of justification uh most conservative protestants disagree that there has been any kind of unity on that issue uh there's still disagreements about the nature and the role of the church probably ecclesiology is the doctrinal focus that that divides both churches both movements uh more than any other uh still disagreement over the sacraments are there seven are there two do the sacraments infuse grace do they nourish do they proclaim allegiance or what the whole idea of transubstantiation continues to be debated today the presence of jesus and the eucharist uh mary and the saints uh merit theology uh still indulgences are being earned today and purgatory continues to be the hope for many of the catholic faithful who've not been completely purified in this life so all these issues uh continue to uh call for more reformation and then finally um we can appreciate the ecumenical strides that the roman catholic church has taken since vatican ii it really has opened itself up uh to dialogue with uh eastern orthodox with protestants with all different kinds of religions and philosophies and so there are ongoing dialogues between the roman catholic church and evangelicals i'm i'm somewhat concerned maybe fearful for my tribe of evangelicals um engaging in these ecumenical dialogues these evangelicals being unaware of roman catholic theology and practice and may see that there's more commonalities more unity than there actually is because we use common vocabulary everybody talks about grace everybody talks about mercy we talk about the gospel the sacraments evangelization so we're using words but we have different meanings for them and i'm afraid that we might get caught up in thinking we have more commonality more unity than we might actually have so we continue to need a reformation yes well thank you for that and i think that's an interesting point that you bring up of evangelicals engaging in these dialogues which i think you labeled as it's a good thing that the bat that uh the catholic church post vatican ii has been open to these things but you worry that perhaps evangelicals don't fully understand the amount of difference that there is and i i think i can see that playing out and i think perhaps sometimes it works in both ways sometimes there's such strong caricatures in their mind that they don't realize that there's any agreement at all and then on the other hand it can seem as though it's right there especially with something like you brought up the joint declaration on justification that it seems like everyone's saying the same thing except if it doesn't get into the issues of infused grace versus imputed righteousness you're really still working with categorical differences even though it sounds similar and so i think that's a really interesting point i did want to ask a question because i imagine many people are going to be asking this about something you said earlier on and that is that when the protestant reformation was starting and presumably the heirs of the reformation still hold this idea that the church is still as the creeds as one holy catholic and apostolic and i can imagine a lot of my either catholic or orthodox viewers hearing that and wondering what does a protestant mean when they say that the church is one holy catholic and apostolic when there is a good amount of division within protestantism at least insofar as it looks on the surface with denominationalism so could you break that down a little what maybe the reformers meant by that or what how you're using that term from the creed there yeah sure so the four attributes are identity markers so the church is one uh that is there is only one uh church of jesus christ only one body of christ protesters protestants would not understand that to refer to the roman catholic church which claims to be the one true church of jesus christ so we would disagree with that but in terms of oneness this goes back to luther and calvin the unity of the church is found in the two marks so the church is by definition a united church wherever the gospel is preached and the two sacraments or ordinances of baptism and the lord's supper are administered that's the essence of protestant unity in terms of holiness uh protestants would say holiness is an attribute of the church in its position uh before god that is uh the church has the imputed righteousness of jesus christ and therefore by definition is holy uh holiness is also prophesied promised for the church uh after jesus returns and the new heavens and the new earth the beautiful bride of jesus christ adorned with uh just perfect righteousness ready for her lord and then holiness would be a process we pursue greater and greater purity in the church through preaching through the ordinances through spiritual disciplines and all those things so holiness is a position it's a practice and it's also kind of the goal that we're uh aiming for and protestants would disagree with the catholic view that holiness can be achieved in this life that there are certain uh well mary and the saints who in a sense have gone above and beyond the call of duty right they have uh lived fully in the grace of god so rather than going to purgatory right their souls go immediately into heaven but mary and the saints even in this life achieved a kind of holiness that protestants would say can't be achieved in this lifetime but is reserved for the age to come so one holy catholic we understand that in terms of catholic costs the greek word for universal uh and universal uh the universal church is tied to the proclamation of the gospel in every parts of the globe that's why like you at moody you're st you're studying and why i at southern i'm teaching we're preparing people to go into every corner of the globe to preach the gospel and plant the church of jesus christ we long for we pray for we hope for we yearn for the catholicity the true universality of the church but we protestants don't mean by catholic capital c catholic we do not believe in that so uh that's an important qualification there and then in terms of apostolicity we don't protestants don't believe in apostolic succession rather apostilicity means being firmly grounded on the apostles that is uh what we would call the word of god the apostolic proclamation of the gospel so uh apostolicity has to do with uh listening to and obeying the words of the apostles which would be scripture well that was very great thank you i love how you broke down each of those terms i think that's going to be really helpful for people a final point of clarification on that idea of the church and we might get into this a little bit later on as well but when you're referring to the church there people i think again it's an area where sometimes protestants and catholics talk past each other because of what they see the church being and so we've gotten at those qualifiers of one holy catholic and apostolic but when we talk about the church in that sense are you talking about what and like the reformers would make this distinction at times as well between the visible church or is this the invisible church and maybe how those things work together a bit yeah fantastic question uh because uh there's a lot of disagreement when we discuss the visibility and invisibility of the church let me pitch it a different way let me pitch it in terms of universal church and local church so when i talk about the church i am talking in a dual sense the church is universal it consists of all those uh who are in christ so in my view the church began at pentecost and it will continue until the lord's return and so the universal church consists of irenaeus and ignatius and augustine and aquinas and luther and calvin and billy graham and auntie m and all like that right all those who have died in christ and they are presently uh disembodied believers in heaven and the universal church also consists of all believers currently alive all across the all across the world so that's the universal church of course that universal church never meets it doesn't have a head it doesn't have a liturgy there's no building but that universal church becomes manifested in local churches so local churches are manifestations outposts of the universal church they're the concrete realities but they're all part of this universal church this body of christ this is why if you go on a mission trip uh somewhere in africa or southeast asia and you meet believers there's this remarkable immediate connection with our brothers and sisters because even though we've never met before even though we're part of different local churches we're all part of the universal church and and that unites us so so i would prefer to talk in terms of universal and local churches i think that's helpful and thank you for that and i i will say having had the absolute privilege and blessing of getting to experience that of being on different continents with believers in christ there is something truly wonderful about that experience of hey our local church expression might look pretty different from one another and we might not have the same sign hanging out in front of our churches our local churches but there is this bond of unity there of those who have been united to christ and i certainly look forward to the day when all believers are one with christ in the age to come i think that's a beautiful thing to think about yeah yeah we can't wait for that we long and pray for that jesus prayed for that in the high priestly prayer of john 17. and and we long for that and yet we realize in this present age in which we live that unity it clearly is not being achieved uh but we don't try to achieve that unity by focusing just on lowest common denominator matters and and ignoring the differences but we we have honest dialogue uh so like in ecumenical dialogues roman catholics and evangelicals and i've participated in this uh we try and set forth our views um uh truthfully honestly frankly and then have very honest discussions about our differences and we try to avoid what took place in one meeting the the evangelical convener just made this statement well you know roman catholics and evangelicals we don't really differ on ecclesiology the doctrine of the church and and i was there at the meeting and across from me were three dear roman catholic brothers systematic theologians we looked at each other and and we did this we shook our head we should have no we we don't agree that there's no differences in ecclesiology that's just it's uh it's open honesty and frankness saying let's let's not uh pretend there's unity on these things let's talk about our different positions and work to make sure we understand one another listen carefully to one another and then talk about what uh commonalities we have and what differences still remain that would be my approach and i think that's a very healthy and good approach i have the pleasure right now of hosting a conversation between uh joe heschmeyer he's a catholic apologist wrote a book called pope peter and dr gavin ortland who has a phd in historical theology and it sounds like you might be familiar with i don't know yes yes okay and so we're having these discussions around protestant and catholic issues that divide one another and we were recently in an email chain talking about you know is there points at which we want to highlight our agreements and and they talked about you know yes there is we we don't want to you know lay those down as though they don't exist but they said what i think people really need to see is not 90 minutes of protestants and catholics talking about all the things they agree on but seeing them disagree charitably respectfully but also being willing to say actually like we have genuine differences on this and let's let's work those out let's talk about them and it's been such a pleasure to see those two do that in such a intellectual way where they're not afraid of their differences because i think you're right when we get to those ecumenical dialogues that can become too wishy-washy we don't really get anywhere with that we want to show the best of the traditions and be able to talk about the differences because if we act as though they're not there we don't really get anywhere with it yeah i think a good example of this and your listeners may assess ect evangelicals and catholics together may your reader listeners may assess it differently but um in their documents there's always an except a section we agree uh we affirm and then we disagree right we we recognize the differences i think that's honest dialogue and that's what we need i agree with you yeah well i and i appreciate the work of ect i've looked into some of what they do and it seems very helpful and so i want to talk about that a bit you know you wrote a book on roman catholic theology and practice and i want to talk a bit about these areas of disagreement you went through them quickly a bit but the first thing i want to say and we talked about this a little bit and i think it fits in well here is how do you balance that that tension of you know i think a lot of evangelicals have in their mind just these kind of blatant caricatures about catholicism that they i at least i know that was my experience i had never met any serious catholics in my life until i was probably 19 years older so i just didn't know any catholics that cared about their faith and i didn't really know what the catholic church taught officially and so it's been some a big thing for me to avoid caricatures um but on the other hand we don't want to just say okay so we agree on everything and so when you were writing on catholic theology or when you teach on it how do you balance those things of avoiding these just easy low-hanging caricatures that make it kind of like these straw man attacks that are really easy to put down but while so while being fair to catholicism while also being you know holding to your convictions about your disagreements how do you balance that tension yeah it's it's a tough tension to balance as you just pointed out um i think it's it's the key reason when i wrote roman catholic theology and practice and evangelical assessment that i simply walked through the catechism of the catholic church holding that that is in a sense the official uh systematic theology of the church and so rather than just give my own ideas this is what catholic church believed i just walked section by section through the catechism and then uh trying to fairly uh uh outline what the catholic view is on mary on the saints on salvation purgatory and all like that and then assessing each of those sections according to my understanding evangelical understanding of scripture and according to evangelical theology so that you know would help me i hope avoid a number of the common caricatures when i teach roman catholic theology at the seminary uh we read um roman catholic theology books and uh and we watch robert barron's uh uh material on i like the sacraments so when we're talking about the seven sacraments we're tuning in to his youtube channel he's explaining the sacraments and and we're going to an actual ordination service we're watching all this unfold for us so i i want my students to see the the uh i want the students to read actual roman catholic theology and see actual roman catholic practice uh in real time but there's there remains a lot of many many misunderstandings many caricatures i i think the majority of evangelicals think that at the mass in chicago at noon today uh there will jesus will be sacrificed for the three billionth 791st millionth uh 493 500 and third time which roman catholics do not believe they they believe with the book of hebrews that jesus is uh sacrificed once and for all so it's not a re-sacrifice as a representation of that one sacrifice of jesus on calvary that's a huge area of misunderstanding another one i think that many protestants many evangelicals misunderstand is that the roman catholic system is completely work based uh works based system and has no notion of grace uh that's that's completely false uh or the the caricature that that uh the church believes that people can move towards salvation apart from or before any kind of divine operation that that's clearly uh a misunderstanding so we've got a lot of work to do i'm just speaking on the part of evangelicals to properly understand roman catholic theology and practice yeah and i really appreciate you bringing those areas up because i think and obviously obviously you've seen this firsthand as you've taught it that it is an area where as evangelicals we get we hear this idea of the sacrifice of the mass and it the what seems to be the logical conclusion for us is oh they're sacrificing jesus again and again and if we take the time to read the catechism and listen to thoughtful like well-read catholics you realize oh okay that there's actually more nuance here than we might have thought and i found that a good amount is around that area of okay caricatures they lack nuance and so when we read into it we see there's more depth here and i'd be curious for and i'm sure it varies depending on where your students came in what level of knowledge they had what their experiences were like but have you noticed a trend among your students when they come when they take this class on catholic theology do they generally is it a movement of kind of gaining some appreciation for the fact that they had um unfortunate caricatures in their mind or do you think they come away from it thinking oh i thought we had more in common but we actually have less in common than i thought does that make sense do you is there a general trend you see in that two trends i i think there are two key reasons why students will take my class number one either they themselves were raised in the roman catholic church and want to better understand and understand it some of them might have had really bad experiences but they don't want those bad experiences to to continue so so they themselves have been raised in the roman catholic church or they have friends family members and and they want to find out uh what what do they actually believe how do they practice uh their faith and and and how can i engage with them about the good news of jesus christ so that's one trend the second trend would be i have students who are going to go into the world as missionaries and they know no matter where they go they're going to find the roman catholic church worldwide about 1.2 billion roman catholics right so everywhere in the world they're going to find roman catholics a number of them are going to roman catholic areas and so they simply want to understand roman catholic theology and practice to better equip them to be missionaries and church planters yeah that that's really interesting i think that makes sense and i could see that that spectrum and that is something i've been surprised by just the last thing that you mentioned there of just how many catholics there are in the world as far as in the bubble that i grew up with it seemed like catholics were the minority in the area i grew up in which is ironic for a state named after mary and mary yeah i suppose it was the bubble i grew up in perhaps um but yeah just realizing how large the catholic church is and if for nothing else it's it's good to learn about these things just on that alone that there are 1.2 billion catholics in the world but i do want to get into a bit of what you go over in your book and i imagine you teach in this class as well and again you hinted at it but let's talk about some of these areas of disagreement because they're substantial they're important and they're worth having an informed opinion on no matter where you land in this discussion i would think that my catholic friends would want to have an informed opinion on these areas we disagree with and i think evangelicals should not just have a default position of the catholic church is wrong because they're catholic but hey i've actually thought about these things and i have convictions and you know i'm a protestant by conviction and not convenience and so what would you say are the most troublesome parts of roman catholicism for you i suppose i could phrase this as well as if you only had say a few weeks in that class you know you had a few things to go over what would you want to highlight for your students as hey these are the issues that still divide us and they're very much worth dividing over because i don't think anyone wants a divided church and so if we're going to be divided in this way we should have a good reason i would think great question yeah um so there's there are two approaches uh to that question uh the one would be the more typical approach um an atomistic approach where we would say let's pick out the top four or five doctrines justification mary purgatory the papacy grace and let's talk about uh our concerns about the roman catholic theological position on these my approach deeply influenced by an evangelical systematic theologian and pastor in rome italy leonardo dicatico uh my approach influenced by him is uh a systems approach so so to view the roman catholic uh church and its theology and practice as a worldview as a system that that coherently holds together uh it's an entire culture grounded on two axioms the first is the nature grace interdependence and the second is the christ church interconnection so the nature grace interdependence what is nature nature would be anything that's created so think of water oil bread uh wine human beings and so forth and then grace is god's unmerited favor whatever benefits he bestows in creating the world and redeeming fallen human beings that nature grace interdependence is set up like this uh according to roman catholic theology grace must always be communicated transferred through elements of nature so nature is capable of receiving the grace of god and communicating it to the faithful to the catholic faithful so think of baptism there's an element of nature water which when consecrated by the roman catholic church is capable as waters this element of nature is capable of receiving the grace of god and transferring it to that three-month-old infant girl who is baptized she is by that act of baptism she is cleansed of her original sin she is reborn she's regenerated and she's incorporated into jesus christ in his church um so that's an element of water capable of receiving and transmitting the grace of god uh think of oil so when she turns 10 years old she goes through a confirmation class and and there's oil uh placed on her head oil is an element of nature right it's able to receive and communicate the grace of god so when the catholic church applies the consecrated oil to her head she then receives the fullness of the presence and power of jesus of the holy spirit and becomes now part of the catholic church on mission then when she goes to mass right there are two elements of nature there's bread and there's wine these two elements are capable of receiving the grace of god in this case they become the very body and blood of jesus christ so when the catholic faith will stream forward and take these elements of nature these elements of nature transfer transmit the actual body and blood of jesus christ to the catholic faithful that's the nature grace interdependence protestantism evangelicalism has nothing of the sort we that that's a very foreign concept this axiom pointing out that there's a huge divide in the systems between catholicism and evangelicalism then we've got the christ church interconnection the roman catholic church self-identifies as the ongoing incarnation of jesus christ that is the roman catholic church is the totus christus the whole christ the deity humanity and body of jesus christ so that the roman catholic church uh is the prolongation the continuation of the incarnation of jesus christ which helps us to understand why it considers itself to be the one and only true church because it and it alone is the whole christ protestant churches according to the roman catholic church aren't even churches we're ecclesial communities right we've got elements of grace like scripture and prayer and all like that but there can only be one true church which is the ongoing incarnation of christ obviously protestants never view the church as the prolongation of the incarnation of christ which again underscores the fact that we're dealing with two very different systems different um between catholicism and evangelicalism well that's a really helpful way of approaching it and i think it's a much healthier way than what you described as kind of an atomistic approach because i think it is really helpful to see how doctrines relate to one another and i mean that's why we have systematic theology in general that's the way we want to approach theology i think that's uh a better way of approaching theology in general when you're doing constructive theology of a more integrative approach there and i think that makes a lot of sense for hey when you're looking at catholicism here are these two fundamental ideas these fundamental axioms i think you called them that are going to inform so much of the rest of catholic theology and it really i imagine is very helpful for people to see oh all these differences of these doctrines down the line if you will come back to these fundamental areas and i think that that plays out in a lot of ways i know that when i've been to catholic churches i've noticed just the physicality of the churches in general and sacramental theology i think really does spring forth from that idea that you talked about of the nature grace uh interdependence is that the way you put it yeah and so i think that that's a lot of food for thought for people to consider as they're unpacking this interview and they're thinking about it and i think it segues really nicely into where i want to go next because just in how we're going to how you approach that class of looking at these fundamental things i think that also the way that it often works out for people when they're investigating catholicism or orthodoxy they if they tried to decide on each of these doctrines they it would take them forever if they're trying to go through like each question in the catechism if you will i think for a lot of people they end up looking at it and they get convinced one way or the other on one thing and then it kind of becomes a domino effect and so i want to start this though with um over the years there's been this phenomena that i had no idea about until recently i like i never would have even considered the idea that evangelicals would become catholic i i didn't have a space on the shelf for that i didn't know anyone that had done that but as i've investigated these things it turns out there's been several high profile and low profile conversions over the years whether it's scott hahn and rome sweet home or the uh what's been described as the evangelical exodus at southern evangelical seminary i believe uh i'm his name's slipping my mind but norm geisler yeah well norm geisler was the the president there but the author of that book um doug beaumont wrote a book called i see what you're going yes yeah um and so there has been this trend and i'm sure you've seen it of these evangelicals or protestants in general converting to catholicism or orthodoxy um i'd love to just get your perspective as someone who's well read in this area who's lived in italy who's you know worked on campus at notre dame who's really spent a lot of time thinking about these things why do you think that is that there's this i don't know trend might be too strong of a word but that there have been many uh evangelicals converting to catholicism yeah it's it's a great question and and i'm going to rely a lot on scott mcknight who uh wrote about this uh a number of years ago uh and i think he is uh he's correct that our friends uh often leave their evangelical churches and join the roman catholic church because they're searching for transcendence expressed in uh four desires uh certainty history unity and authority so let me break each one of those down certainty history unity and authority um instead of protestant doubt and insecurity our friends find certainty in the absolute truth and the sure foundation of the catholic church in place of the temporariness the impermanence and the historical nature of evangelicalism our friends find a connection to the past and feel like they've come home by joining the catholic church and then tired of constant and seemingly flippant divisions within protestantism our friends cling to the unity and the universality of the catholic church and fourth instead of interpretive chaos and theological opinions our friends embrace the authority of the catholic church so it's a search for transcendence that's manifested in these four areas certainty history unity and authority that's really helpful and was that in a book or an article i've read some of his things it's an article in the journal of the evangelical theological society entitled if i'm not mistaken from wheaton to rome or something like that okay so yeah maybe you could post it for uh your listeners yeah yeah i'll have to check if you need help on it let me know i can get it to you well thank you very much yeah i've i've really benefited from some of his work and that was just a very clear and just very concise way of putting this and i think it really does encapsulate a lot of that and so my follow-up to that would be what would you say to people that are feeling the pool of this transcendence and authority i i don't know if you've seen this in your students at all if you've talked to anyone through that if if this has like come home personally in that way or just in general what would you say to people who maybe look at the division within protestantism or they feel this lack of certainty or they're just looking for that transcendence what would you say to them if they're thinking about these things so uh so so these four points uh offer uh an opportunity for me to give a response uh so just briefly to each one of them so uh in terms of certainty uh the mighty acts of god are our certainty both personally and corporately uh in terms of history the history of the church and its tradition may indeed be a fine guide wisdom from the past but it must always be chastened by scripture and never allowed to exercise magisterial authority over scripture in terms of unity um i offer uh both a caution and a clarification the caution is that joining the roman catholic church and adhering to its claims that it alone is the only true church of jesus christ this will do nothing to foster unity among non-catholic churches absolutely nothing in terms of a clarification the gospel preached and celebrated by the sacraments according to luther calvin and others that is the sufficient basis for unity among protestant churches and finally then the matter of authority the authority by which evangelicals live is that of the triune god who reveals himself by his authoritative word and his word alone well that was excellent and i really appreciate the way that you just prepared for this and the just the the clarity and answers that you can give to these things that that means a lot to me and i think it's going to be really helpful for people because on my channel it's it's very diverse like i told you it has more catholics than protestants and but a large uh section of the channel are protestants who are investigating catholicism and orthodoxy and they're trying to work these things out and it means a lot to me to be able to just provide them with the the best of you know the the best answers i can give them uh not for myself but from uh more qualified people like yourself and allow them to examine these traditions at their best and to really get good answers because i know it's it's a nerve-wracking journey and it's it's a confusing one and there's so much out there and so it's been great having you on today to discuss these things a final question i'd like to ask that i think people will be wondering and i know you hit this i believe towards the end of your book um but but i think it's worth bringing up and so in light of the disagreements that we've talked about today in light of the what i think would you know a fair descriptor term would be what you would describe it as false teachings or erroneous doctrines um within the catholic within the catholic church would you consider the roman catholic church a true church by the way that calvin i suppose in luther defined those things with the gospel being preached and the sacraments administered and maybe a second question which would highlight i think the differences between protestants and catholics that this second question would be a question but the follow-up to that would be and would lay catholics would you consider them brothers and sisters in christ yeah this is the toughest um i'm going to rely on my good friend uh chris castaldo with whom i authored the book uh the unfinished reformation uh chris and i had a conversation a couple weeks ago and he's experimenting with this idea and i really want to throw it out and let your listeners process it um and i hope i'm representing chris well but here's what i took away from my conversation with him the question is wrong to start with uh is the roman catholic church a true church or a false church as an institution is roman catholic church orthodox or unorthodox from an evangelical perspective so um here's the here's the answer right we it's the wrong question we don't define and assess a church according to roman catholic ecclesiology rather we as evangelicals use a biblical understanding of the church uh thus i want to avoid uh asking and answering the question in that way rather let's put it this way we should assess each roman catholic perish in accordance with scripture and evangelical theology we've got plenty of resources to speak about roman catholic doctrine as orthodox sub-orthodox or heretical uh so i think we should decide by a case by case in terms of parishes and even doctrine by doctrine and then for the second question and that would apply to each individual roman catholic uh man or woman uh we don't tar and feather someone oh he's roman catholic she's roman catholic therefore is a non-believer we actually have good uh dialogue and listen well to those in the roman catholic church and seek their understanding of the gospel and their understanding of of god's mighty act of salvation and so we decide on an individual basis so i so i'm going to skirt the the question if i can oh yeah and i totally respect that having been on the other side of questions like this i i can appreciate the the nuance with which you answered that and i think there's some pastoral wisdom in answering in such a way as well to avoid these blanket statements but dr allison i'd like to thank you so much for being on today this has been an absolute pleasure and i'd just like to leave you with the final word to let if there's any closing thoughts you want to share as well as if you want to let people know where they can find your work and kind of keep up with what you're doing great uh again thank you for hosting me your questions are really well developed and and you added some that we hadn't even talked about so it was it's fantastic thank you um so i if if your listeners want to uh follow up on more of this uh my book roman catholic theology and practice and evangelical assessment is like i said a walk through the uh catholic catechism uh chris costaldo who i just mentioned he and i wrote the unfinished reformation what unites and divides roman catholics and and protestants after 500 years and and i hope our listeners will understand both the commonalities that continue to unite us and the differences that continue to divide us and and and really appreciate both of those my next one of my future books hopefully lord willing this fall is called uh 40 questions about roman catholicism it's part of the kregel series 40 questions about biblical interpretation or the law and things like that so i'm doing 40 questions about roman catholic uh sorry 40 questions about roman catholicism and uh hopefully that would be a resource to your listeners as well so um you know it's questions about mary and the saints questions about purgatory why do catholics use the rosary why do they still not eat meat on friday uh you know what's their view of justification 40 questions about it hopefully that would be would be helpful to them well fantastic i'll be on the lookout for that and i'll be sure to link those existing books down in the description so that people if they'd like to check them out they can do so in any case thank you so much for being here and thanks to all of you who are watching this whenever it is that you're watching this i know neither of us take that lightly so thank you so much for your time and as always as i always say until next time be on the lookout for more videos and go out and love god and love others because truly above all else that will change the world [Music] you

Channel: Gospel Simplicity

Views: 11,763

Keywords: Dr. Gregg R. Allison, Dr. Allison, SBTS Professors, Southern Baptist Catholic, SBTS Catholic, Difference between catholics and protestants, catholic vs. protestant, kindred, kindred apostle, beautiful bibles, catholic bible, catholic evangelism, austin suggs, gospel simplicity, evangelical assessment of catholicism, unfinished reformation, reformed theology, reformed vs catholic, catholic theology, is catholic theology biblical, foundations of catholic theology

Id: ViRw8Stb0NY

Length: 53min 4sec (3184 seconds)

Published: Wed Feb 03 2021