Alastair Campbell vs Ed Miliband on podcasts, Brexit and bacon sandwiches | British GQ

let's say there's there's the spectrum in the Labour Party yeah and let's say that Tony's kind of there okay and let's say Gordon's there and let's say you're there yeah fair so far I don't know where's Jeremy tell me I mean is your spectrum [Music] so ed high reasons to be cheerful yeah what reasons to be cheerful did you find the day of and after the election that you lost I feel that cheerful actually feel any reason to be cheerful I think you know the truth is that you feel I felt a sense of shock so you're not you're slightly in shock you don't quite know you know it's happened but you're still sort of coming still trying to work out what it means the day before he thought you're gonna win yeah I mean I wasn't wasn't certain I was gonna win but it wasn't if you know if you compare William Hague you in 2001 he kind of knew the writing was on the wall and actually on that day the sort of polls that we had coming in which would be taken during the day seemed quite positive mmm so no I didn't feel that cheerful I mean I mean I I think there is one thing which is you feel sort of the the burden of leadership has been lifted and I was thinking you know I've got my family just even the kids you know so I knew there was you know compensation and quite there's not a great reason it's not it wasn't it wasn't it was 92 and he looked absolutely sure hmm I mean did you feel like you were just devastated yeah it was pretty it's pretty hard and how long does it take to do you ever get over it well yeah you move on I think I'm I have moved on but I think it took he took a good sort of really a year or I mean I think the 2017 general election fund enough was a sort of inflection point was a little moment of moving on partly because the last election was not my hellicksen yeah and also I kind of there was some things I was clear about when I lost so I wanted to carry on being an MP I wanted to be the Python make a contribution in terms of ideas I don't quite know how I was gonna do that it's taken me some time to work that out I felt there were big things that mattered about the future of the country some other things I'd been talking about like inequality and you know what the kind of post financial crises settlement was gonna be for Britain all of those things I kind of still felt as strongly about them and felt I want to make a contribution in some way so there were some things I could hang on to but it was kind of working out what it all meant a destroyer a shock of you know it's like that you know in the West Wing Arnie Vinick the Republican candidate right anyway he's there about I'll make it brief he's a Republican candidate and he goes from just losing the election to go to Starbucks the next day and they say what's your name and he says army and they say coffee for Ernie and you know he's sort of forgotten and he's got a dentist appointment in his in his diary and that's about it I mean it's slightly like you know what do I do now you're going a hundred miles an hour you know every minute of the day you know they don't match and then you crash right yeah so if leaving the Labour Party in our system if this was football is like kind of you know Chelsea yeah man City yeah where is backbench MP for Doncaster doing a bit oh I don't think I don't think I'd make that comparison I think it's some I'm actually grating quite a lot out of what I'm doing at the moment but can you give as much do you feel like though you were the other day yeah what are you a podcast and I come up with Jeff or rubies you said you know you could have been at checkers yeah we could be off to China now you know it's interesting thing about you think about it well it's interesting it's for the first year or two that's quite painful and kind of now you know you kind of come to terms with it and and it's sort of people say that and it's kind of slightly bounces off me whereas before I would had a moat you know I would have felt sort of regretful and I might have sort of ruminated on it well but is the podcast are you doing the podcast in part two because what was interesting the other night was you're clearly with the people who went there but you were popular with them they like you they like you as a person they're like what you're saying whereas I wonder if through the process of the election there was a sense of you not being popular partly because of the way you've been betrayed you were obviously in terms of ideas ultimately rejected because you lost that election is whether actually you kind of refining that and trying to try to do you're trying to enjoy being popular in a way that maybe you didn't then I don't I'm not sure it's about being popular I mean it's always nice to be liked but I think it's more about I felt right from the outset of 2015 there are the big ideas I care about I still care about how do I find a medium for them and and there are big ideas that matter to the to the future of the country and you know going off into a darkened room and writing a book now it was not quite me I'm a quite like that maybe I will write a book out of the podcasts and the ideas in that but but you know I want people an engagement and sort of short headlines and so on and so that's what I think the podcast is is is doing but but look also I think the podcast II have no element of self-reflection in the following sense that I thought my analysis was big inequality stagnant wages the next generation doing worse than the last the ideas the response wasn't big enough the not bold enough and that you didn't do would you win I don't know my dad look I think I think I would have been clearer about the mission tackling inequality and I was you know was part of it but maybe wasn't clear enough maybe I'd have emboldened some other solutions whether on tuition fees or rail nationalization things like that I am proud of the 2015 manifesto and in fact hope it's been adopted by both parties so you know there was quite a lot of good ideas in there um but I think ultimately and this is in a way why I know we'll come on to this is why anyway I give some credit to Jeremy Corbyn on this is I think this is a moment when people want big answers bolder answers to the problems that exist I always felt this as leader I felt well you know my analysis is big are the answers big enough and I think probably they were right but do you what is the boldness and I don't sense a boldness in what the Labour Party at the moment is saying that I sense a kind of a regression and going back as you did some pretty old-fashioned ideas I don't sense a free university education okay there's lots and lots of things in that manifest that people would like do you it'll be fair they've sure now they're gonna pay for it look they publish they yeah they published they probably thought this idea that manifesto was fully costed was it if I may say so a brilliant piece of spin and and you might be in a good position to judge indeed what what makes you say that cuz I didn't think it was custard they published the whole long I don't believe that actually added up to as a coherent plan not sure I agree with that don't you no I don't think so so you you felt that that manifesto was deliverable yeah and you feel that do you think if Jeremy Corbyn goes into the next election with that manifesto do you think you can win well I think this is yes I mean I think he can win building on that manifesto but I think part of my responsibility and and people are anybody who wants a Labour government is leader can do it on their own that's one thing I certainly learned is help him come up with the ideas that can change the country that can make the country better that can tackle inequality that you know these are very difficult things to tackle and so when I grew up a part of what I'm part of what I'm trying to do with the podcast the podcast is just the beginning and maybe we'll get into this is help be a kind of facilitator for those ideas provide a platform for some of those ideas that can bring the change that we need so is it sort of think tank for the modern age yes um but it's an ultimate isn't no I mean maybe it's entertaining but it's about how you get an audience and how you get people to kind of know about and become advocates for actually big ideas so the universal basic income that's the idea that you replace a social security system with one payment to everybody it's you know lots of people advocate it for an age of technology and when jobs might disappear and so on we've had 100,000 downloads for our episode of the universal basic income you know most think tanks would dream of having that number of people engaging with an idea I think what we found is a way to kind of engage people with big ideas that can change a country I would want to we've got this idea about cheerful thinking so digital think tank that is a platform for new ideas we commissioned new ideas we provide a platform for other people's ideas we organize events around the country so that's kind of what I'm now focused on building a digital think tank for the modern age that can that can help to to show people I think it's positive it's optimistic I think people it was actually my co-presenter Jeff who came up with reasons to be cheerful as the title people want a sense that things can be better sure that that the world can be different surely and and and that's what which were those you and they want to see political leadership with a plan to deliver that now I accept the Jeremy Corbyn did that to some extent at the last election but do I mean I my you were surprised I was surprised at how terrible she was I was surprised that he did as I was surprised the Lib Dems imploded yeah and I was surprised that he campaigned as well as he did that to be frank made me very very angry they hadn't campaigned like that during the referendum if we'd sat here a year ago so February 2017 and I'd said to you he's gonna get there's a general election well he's gonna get 40% of the vote it's suddenly packin with me I probably said new packing probably probably but the thing is I think that what happened out the result though is almost this sense that he won and we didn't win and I haven't seen much in distillation he didn't win I haven't seen much that takes him to well let's comment that we can come on to that but it isn't this the fundamental point about our time is to understand why he got why he did so much better than either you expected alright but I'm not saying I was coming as well possibly he expected as well and that is because he was he was answering he was giving people a sense that he had answers big enough bold enough honest enough for the moment that we're in but is whether you agree with whether you agree with that whether you agree with all the answers or not I think that is fundamentally inside that he had no I agree that that's the saddest thing gives you no all of it dude so I still think that what he's saying he did a visit to William Alice the other day and all the kids asked him about won't do this and what do this and what do this and it's kind of yeah we'll do that we'll do that and we'll do it by putting a bit more tax on the rich and business that's kind of the impression that he's giving I don't know it's credible but hang on a minute let's take the corporation taking corporation that is falling to I think 17 percent under the Tories I'm saying can you actually do all of these things that you won't do everything but I think you can do what he's set out and and you know he is well I say I think he's speaking to the moment look no leader is perfect but I think I think he deserves in a way I think partly you know humility is important in politics and and you know I think it's important to give him credit for what he's managed to achieve against what Peter Kellner the political scientist wrote after the 2017 election to be fair to him he said look I kind of think all the rules have been torn up now you know the there was only one way to win and 15 fair Tony Blair Sanders to do there was only one way to win and that was a sort of certain version of the political center and I think that is I think that's I think that is part of the time that we're in really okay well but but but I think I think it I put it in the same phenomenon I'm sure Jeremy Corbyn would hate this but I actually think is a little bit like what has led to Trump in America I think people are looking and brexit and definitely brace it absolutely looking looking if you like to towards extreme is the wrong word but they're looking for something very very clear very very different my point yeah is about whether it's credible and whether actually does run with the grain of what you and I through most of our adult lives have believed to be the Labour Party I sort of feel a bit of an alien inside my own party no I feel but why do you feel like because I feel statically about the agenda you know most of Europe has nationalized rail right Yeah right you or I had conversations with you when Labour was in government where you would say to me health of rails blah you know nightmare I mean you you you're not instinct to me again right okay know why I'm against is him saying he can't do it inside the European Union I'm against that yes he said that a lot of the things the reason why he's so relaxed about coming out of European Union is a lot of the things that is what he says a lot of the things that he wants to do I think this is an interesting thing I think all right I think there's a scent I think that I think they're quite sectarian in their politics I think that I did question time with John McDonnell and I had this kind of Eureka moment where I realized he loads people like me way more than the Tory was on the panel I really felt that and I think they I think they venomous isn't that partly a history of animus possibly but I think is also and this is something you know we've argued right in the past I think is also the way that the Labour Party is somehow conspired to make what we did in government almost a kind of negative thing I think the Labour Party is I think there's I mean my white sauce about the Corbin dake de coeur axis I think there is a little bit that the Labour Party that we worked with a working foreign government I think that it's become negative eyes to the extent that I actually think that the you know people regularization we have a new political party I think we've kind of got one and I don't feel totally at home with it that's what I'm saying the funny thing about me just being for myself is I can have a meeting with Tony Blair one week and Jeremy Corbyn the next and I can think but Jamie wouldn't see me I have a substitute you know and I think they both caught something important to say and I know why I think that's then party ie believe in you know but they said there isn't with them in one wing of them okay what do you think about this point about sectarianism in there's a there's a nastiness coming back in the Labour Party which they like to say is down to people like me which is not but I think actually is this kind of hard left politics coming back in what do you think the converse happened to Claire : well I'm coming again to the detail of one particular individual I believe in Malay but he looks outwards not in words I think actually Jeremy believes in that too you seem to take momentum for example right lots is written and said about momentum and no doubt again not everything they do is right but if you weren't followed party conference they had this thing called the world transformed right which was about the ideas for the future all of the energy the dynamism the young the young people there I had conversations with them about these elections what they weren't interested in dese elections they were sort of interested in how do you you know how do you have something different just to give you my sort of the story why didn't you just put the destination thing into bed first matter for him look look we just want a story to give you about the the kolben thing I came a much Australia to solve in 2015 summer 2015 get away from it all leadership contest and and ignored your texts and and I came back and I met this guy on the street and okay it's in London and he said I was funny I should meet you but I'm just about to post my ballot paper for leadership election I didn't know the guy I've got some sins and I was with my kids and I said oh and I and you'll vote for Jeremy Corbyn aren't using why how did you know and I said well it seems like a lot of people are why voting for him and I said and he said he said I couldn't forgive myself if I didn't now no okay but but what's that saying that's saying Heath that the the sort of the election the 2015 election leadership election felt like an ollie much do we want a more right-wing version of Ed or do we want a more left-wing version of it or more radical version a bolder version of Ed and that's what Jeremy was offering and that's why he won and that does speak to the moment okay II may speak to the moment is he gonna win that's where I don't know I think it's not in the bag but it's certainly possible I really were up and it's certainly you know it certainly could happen he could he could well Maya we're up against I don't think I've ever known a government as bad as this in terms of its abject failure to deal with the biggest issues in terms of the division in terms of the kind of incompetence that comes out every day and yet we're kind of neck and neck in the polls and Teresa Mays viewed and most of them as better than more prime minister but you know why I think that is I think that's the fog of brexit I think brexit would be likely you could also not too clear I think it's it's like a sort of politics you know I think that they are doing Kirsten add the brexit spokesman and him I'll try and do something very difficult which is they're not trying to appeal just to the remain as all the levers they're trying to marry both I don't just don't mean that in a sort of triangulating sense I mean that in a I thought that was all days all the triangulation come on you you're speaking just to the remain that's right and you're very pop you you are really no I'm actually I actually think the job of leadership is to stand up for what you believe is right and I think most of the people in that place behind us at the moment think that what we're doing is the wrong thing but they're not say so that's what I think let me talk about my constituency in this because I think it is important one of the top don't you one of the top five or six brexit votes in the country seventy one seventy two percent voted for break sir what do I detect there people haven't changed their minds and that sort more or less reflected in the opinion polls people voted for brexit yes because of immigration dissatisfaction with Europe but much people with reasons much deeper reason greed it's the woman who said to me the day after the referendum he was immigration and I said that the only reason she said I voted for a new beginning for my grandchildren it is breaks it gonna give it well I don't think breaks it is gonna give him you know but so we be standing up to tell them that they were wrong know to tell them to talk to explain to them that if they there are a real possibility that what they voted for what Parliament is now in acting is going to make their lives a lot better you see I don't think that is gonna work uh I just don't think that's going to work because I think I don't think you can underestimate or overestimate the extent to which the the driver for this referendum was a sense of political alienation a sense of alienation from the political class a sense that honestly the political class comes along and says right this is the way you voted in the referendum right nothing's actually changed in the last 18 months so we have nothing sorry sorry nothing's changed in the sense of delivering the change that people voted for and we're gonna come along and tell you we didn't like the result the first time let's have another thing let me ask you this question if it had been 52 48 the other way right and we were doing this interview and Faraj was out there saying let's really run the referendum what would you be saying guaranteed Faraj would be right and what would you be saying you'd have to win the argument because tomorrow you wouldn't doesn't die you wouldn't want saying let's have rerun the referendum but I don't see this is really the referendum is really those well I don't believe that I think what is it then I think I think it is as we have known more as a the reality of what breaks it may mean becomes clearer then the public are in time remember change the point if they won't remember I'm the guy that stood on a manifesto saying no to the referendum against some method of my showing it against against but but I also campaigned you know full-throated Lee for remain but if so you're saying you're saying because we had the vote I'm saying that whatever the cost whatever the case I'm not saying that however badly no I'm not saying there's no way we'll know you're not saying that I'm saying I don't Jeremy's I don't detect a shift in public opinion either locally there won't be unless is led well but I mean there's lots of people trying to lead it's not having much effect lots of remainders telling believers they got it wrong I don't detect much of a change in public opinion and also I think this other point here I got to live together as a country after this should have dictated our strategy what whooping it hasn't correct she's decorated correct but that's why you've got to have you know that the only way to resolve this and live together after afterwards is a close relationship with Europe close economically close strategically albeit outside the European Union in my view and then we and that is issue which her party doesn't want so we've got Ferrari smog effectively driving strategy let's see what happens I mean I think actually in the sort of gear they they talk a big game about we're gonna be distant and different and all that and then in when it comes to push comes to shove she ends up compromising quite a lot but I mean look that's where the that's sort of where I think the fight is what kind of brexit is it gonna be when when when I wrote wrote are coming when it was but I wrote a piece I don't think you liked very much was a Toni begat Gordon and yeah ed begat Jeremy oh yeah I'm assuming that now you tell you that as a compliment in a way I mean in a way why did you not take it as a compliment at the time well I think you didn't mean this is a compliment Alastair I think you know I think I think that I think well I I think I was maybe the point is that politics is a continuum and yeah so here's the thing let's say we've got a spectrum in the labour party blame right okay I don't like quizzes no it's not a quiz but let's say that let's say you like they're like being a quiz master on the quiz sake let's say there's there's the spectrum in the Labour Party yeah and let's say that Tony's kind of there okay and let's say Gordon's there okay I'm kind of pretty in between them a bit now probably near to Gordon actually in terms of the parties and let's say you're there yeah fair so far I don't know where's Jeremy tell me I mean it's your spectrum but the part you do you think this is where I think you and I may disagree you accept the part I accept the parties move to the left the center of gravity in the party's moved fundamentally to the left because ountry I middle of the country has oh come on oh come on you don't really believe that do you I mean look you left everything but but calm I mean look you've got vast majorities of Tory supporters they know what we nationalize the right way yeah yeah it's about objective circumstances you've got tourism a saying on the steps of down street maybe she's not carrying through on it she's not carrying through on it you know inequality oh yeah oddly it's finally old experience for me because many of the things are predatory capitalism but you know inequality all of those things yeah stagnant wages you know next generation big war slashes hatchet in China this week which I think I call the British promise which is the next generation does better than last is now the British dream and it's the same thing so so but but that's you know what I don't actually get some annoyed by that I some think when your opponent's take on some of your ideas trapping energy breath you know executive pay it's because of the moment that we're in and that is a response to objective circumstances we'll see we'll see that's an all you do believe the country's move on some is public spending maybe down not so much but but on on public spending it no but I do what I found really depressing about the isolation I felt it was two competing visions of the past I felt there was a kind of left-wing past vision and there was a right-wing past vision but I'm talking about you know in trying to boil count of the age of you know AI and robotics and yeah yeah I agree with that so you wrote you have you sort of the the guiding pen on Gordon's manifesto if you a long time ago it was a long time ago but if Jeremy called him to come along and say ed you know I do want to kind of broaden the appeal I do want to kind of you know not be seen as just trapped in this very narrow sectarian politics which I think he's in danger of being if he's not careful then what would you add based upon what you know now what would you add to the last manifesto I think is filling out the vision I think it's filling out the vision in in in different ways but give me three big-ticket items the wealth taxation so like we had this episode of podcast about Ron Texas I'm at Tony's think tank is Tony Blair think tank is advocating this is why politics is kind of surprising in a way I think that's important I would take the universal basic income seriously as an idea it's make sure you do their piloting it in different parts of the world as a potential solution some of the social security challenges we face I'd make gender pay and I'd make sort of gender equality a big part of my appeal so we had the prime minister of Iceland on they've got this their world leading on what they're doing on that I'd put climate it's sort of more at the center of an economic vision for the future loads of stuff I think one of things I've discovered in this podcast and I sort of maybe didn't realize it as leader is there are great ideas out there if you go to any country of the world and find out what they're doing or if you go to you know academia there are lots of people with good ideas they just sort buried away with their experts yeah well but that is a problem the kind of the dumb down political culture is a bit of a problem at the moment and I guess what you're trying to do is maybe elevate it a little bit what do you think this podcast thing says to what people feel they need in the political debate big ideas to make the country better more equal fairer why is that because of the fog of brexit especially what Tony warned me about before 2015 when I was sort of wondering what to do on the referendum he said look this will just consume every listener what he thought we thought a referendum will be one will consume every waking minute of what you do and it will crowd out everything else and that is the you're in a fight you know in a sort of old way I think if you're my constituents okay maybe you're a lever who's feeling like why aren't they getting on with it but you're also feeling I can't vote for things to be different and why is that not happening so I think it's a I I think you know I think breaks it is in part breaks is crowding everything else definitely other reason is that the Tories are you know why hasn't made delivered on her on the steps vision because she's caught between free-market conservatism and its failure and that's really where we are that's why you know in a way why am i cheerful in some sense short term brexit Trump bad right hmm medium term it's massively up for grabs the script when you and I were in the Labour government in 1990s okay the Labour government did really things and I totally schools and hospitals and all that but the script of where things were going we kind of knew it kind of had a sense of it except quite a lot of the economic settlement of the past big social push public sphere you know etc you shuttle Europe yeah but but the script for the next 10 15 years is not written hmm it's so up and nothing that's what Trump in a funny way illustrates it's like people are searching for what does the world look like after the financial crisis with all this inequality with the failure of free markets how do how does the future Garen I by the way I think that's where the next Conservative leader if the curves are to revive that's what they'll have to do there has to take that much more seriously not just in a sort Cameron s superficial occasional speech about you know we're against and kind of may way but they'll have to be you know a bit level towards it after 1945 just don't Cameron by the way what do you think about the way he's just vanished what one sense did you get of him in the sort of close hand-to-hand combat good opponent but I'm always careful not to you know he sort of hatred or dislike of your opponents clouded your judgment so I don't have personal animus towards him I think the rest I mean I thought I think he will be remembered for brexit let that is the thing he will be remembered for and I'm afraid I fear that what happened with bricks it was because of who he was as a person he felt he would win he felt he would persuade people he felt he'd done it in Scotland you've done it with me I'm a winner apparently he said you know it's kind of the war you know his his MO well yeah and he just thought it will be alright and you know now the country is coping with the consequences I think the sort of notion that you should have stayed on I mean I think the public's a bit resentful that he buggered off but I'm not really convinced that they don't have you had any doubts about your buggery off day after the election not really and any any doubts about the the changes that you made that did help Jeremy become leader and then have helped him change the party you think has overall been a good thing yeah I tell you why look it was accepted across the party that you know even the Tories were having the membership electing the leader he won in every section I have people gone but he's three pounds by the way the three pound people was it was kind of the right of the Labour Party then we got to have these registered support was it right the Union we were did a billion members so and also I think in a way if you attributed to the mechanics you missed the bigger picture which is why what was it what about his project and what he was saying that sort of spoke to people not just the electorate but you know in some ways some parts of the electorate as well do you I'm not suggesting this is as he were your purpose or ambition but if he did become Prime Minister would you be happy to go about the cabinet for the future I don't know I mean I want to contribute in some way but I'm sort of happy doing what I'm doing I'm serving the ideas business with the fall the freedom that that ultimately I the way to deliver ideas in political change is through the political process and possibly possibly do you feel do you feel at the moment what you do in the podcast has more impact than anything you can do in that place i speaking out of Commons you know but probably because brexit is so all-consuming and I think there are lots of people who are taking up the cudgels on brexit and it is the reason why you'll not do I mean you I know what your views are embracing because the reason why you're not doing more partly because of the constituency think that there's lots of people doing that and I feel like the place I can contribute and I and I'm you know I'm I'm a fan of both I'm found what key astana is trying to do because I think he's managing a very difficult situation very well I don't really want to sort of get in the way of the job that he's do and I feel like there aren't people that you there are fewer people if you like trying to build up this ideas sort of these ideas that are not about practice but are about but we're gonna have to be answered which is how do you change the country also an educated process for myself if I'm honest it's harder to do when you're in a leadership role to actually spend time thinking well what's gonna work what's not gonna work how much I remember when I left number ten I did this kind of rather weird on a tour of theaters around the country and watching the other night I sort of wondered whether there's a little bit of that going on with you that you sort of trying to work out how to do policies in a very very different way yes I think there is an element of that I'm probably enjoying it actually did you enjoy being lead of the party yeah but I was had it were the times when you hated it did you ever regret do you know I didn't regret doing it look there when things go wrong it's not great but it was a huge privilege and I don't just say that as a sort cliche it was a huge it may be a cliche but it might be true as well it was a huge privilege and I never regretted it because what the chance to speak to the country my friend Paul Greengrass you know the film guy always used to say to me before conference speeches very few people get the chance to talk to the country about its condition how it needs to change and the chance to do that the platform to do that and that's why I was used to take the conference which is very seriously because it was sort of what you're trying to say to the country about where we are and where we need to go and you know that's it so this there's huge rewards of the job look familywize it's it's kind of really was very difficult it was more difficult than I realized because you are sort of absent even when you're present and I'm sure Tony Fanus actually you found it as well you've talked about it and said my relationship with my kids is transformed because I'm just there and when I'm there I'm there not not that yeah and with their ever moments post when you have been to the room Lane T on it whether you either you've ever wondered whether he had you not stood had David done it whether he could have done a better job I mean not in the sense that I read that I thought I shouldn't think I shouldn't have stood mm-hmm I stood because I was offering something different I was you know you won't love this but I was sort of moving on from New Labour candidate but I thought and and you'll know from our conversations before 2010 that I didn't somehow arrive at this position you know in May 2010 but I thought it will be a lecturer they're all recorded in the door is it is that when you were the what do we call the emissary from planet fire yeah yeah but not just that because that's that was that's about wise because you were the only ones you you the only one who didn't swear out as always out that but that's them because I that's about the conciliator in me but do you remember that meeting we had in 2001 is that not in the Diaries probably do you remember when all of Gordon's team and Tony's team gathered together in number eleven because we'd gone off for this away there's a bit of a digression we'd got off of this away day without Tony and we'd all come up with lots of left-wing stuff about what the government needed to do and Tony was so horrified about this and then we had this sort of summit to try and kind of beat it all out of us and you know I was a person that said look I think we should be more clear about who we're for lower-middle in Britain and Wow until you dismissed me as a Marxist totally fair it was a very you know but Duke but so you know I accept your offering something different and you want and that's fine I'm simply asking whether in the kind of more reflective person that you inevitably become as you go through something like that and then sort of plan your future whether you do ever think cuz you know you know that people say it oh god if only David had done it it would have been different people have to have their own view about that but I don't I felt what I was saying was important not because I wanted look of course I wanted to be leading a Labour Party but it was the the reason I did it was because for a particular yeah because of what where I thought I had a very strong view I still do about where the country needs to go in a way the way politics is unfolded not just Jeremy in a sense May and what May is saying post Cameron I think reflects what I was I'm not just saying this to vindications I didn't serve lots of stuff wrong but it doesn't reflect reflect somewhere I what I was arguing in the 2010 to 2015 period so if Jeremy Corbyn does win and he does implement this agenda a bit like we would have said that Neil played a big role in setting up Tony to win you could legitimately say there's a radical labour government if Jeremy leads a radical labour government that changes the country tackles inequality you may be in a while they defend eight some of the foundations for them but but in a way I'm less interested in what's my place in history I'm more interested in what do I do now to contribute to that happening to get the ideas to generate the one thing that's great about the podcast I have lots of Tories listening to it Kotori researchers around here saying I really like the podcast because we try to do it in and that's something you can do as a former leader in a way not in the front bench you less partisan it's not about party political point-scoring it's about what you know judging it in a non party way what are the good idea is to change the completely that's that's the other thing that gives me the sense of politics is so in flux now if you talked about Trump if if Trump does come on this day visit and if is a formally delay I'm on the demo you definitely definitely on the demo and you wouldn't go to the state banquet no ID but no you would be a very probably there what do you think Jeremy go to the state banquet that's a matter for him that's a tricky he's got to meet him you have to meet him isn't he but is there not a danger that actually I mean Trump is trumping he's gonna be there for four years or eight years old yeah depending on what but is there a danger you on the demo I find no no I find I thought I can't even watch him on TV yeah I come this rule I just I couldn't watch the State of the Union I read in here but I can't watch him you just touch something to mine your skin but Piers Morgan do you watch baseball but in the end he's the president of America breaks is yeah because yeah over there happening and is there not a danger that we are actually sending a message not just a trump but to the United States of America which I know you like as a country yeah and that actually damages Britain ultimately not really I was I think you're sending a message about what is acceptable in a leader in terms of values and I think well if he come let's put it the opposite way that seeks a he comes here there's no protests it's all fine it sends a message to America Donald Trump's really popular around the world he get she said on this P is more interview apparently I saw the clip I think you know I'm really popular in Britain no you're not and I think it's very important that people you know show you know what it's objection about him his racism his misogyny his people incredibly peculiar relationship with Russia the truth and the truth most of all the truth and you know who he is is the person I mean there's a line so if you were still leader you wouldn't go to the very good you wouldn't yeah I think from but I said people say this but you know it's flatly sort of what about rehear but it's also you know our relationship with America is incredibly important and the the response to America that we project has an impact in America and therefore somehow we handle that is really important I don't you can just say well the Chinese game here so therefore they shouldn't why they demonstrated against on Trump I don't think it kind of worked because China is we know China is a different sort of values we've know times of different sort of values we we're not sort of joined up the hip historically with China in the way that we are with the US and you know he will want to say out the visit it was a great success I was incredibly popular and said 4 etc the gear I think it has real impact so the Americans have to see that it's not by the way by the way that's why I think the notion that she went rushed out there to invite him crazy sort of for the birds room yeah yeah and what do you think it says though about the fact that America has elated was president what does that say about what's going on similar to brexit when you read about sort of pencil that you know the Midwest the Midwest of America is kind of where he won the election really because there were the states like Wisconsin and Pennsylvania and so on which they didn't he didn't expect to will she thought she was Hillary thought she was gonna win and it was economic I honestly think look ok no doubt there's racism among some people but but it was also the fundamentals he can't make two days before the election he did this ad and the ad was his last his last big and and it was it was seen as being anti-semitic cuz it featured three prominent Jews right but the anti-semitism wasn't what struck me what struck me was his message which was the global elite have taken your jobs closed your factories and it's time to take our country back more and more that's a more or less word-for-word that's an economic message and it's been coming for a long time Pat Buchanan stood as a Republican candidate was in nineteen ninety two against George Bush the first with the same message as Trump sort of blue-collar slanty trade and all of that that's that's fundament that sort of the deep feminist now some people say well that's not right because Hillary won among low income voters blah blah blah that's not the point the point is the swing where did he gain the support to win and okay partly some people stayed at home but I think it was also to do with that and that is you know that people don't say don't generally like Trump actually which is good but but the same the same kind of thing that discontent that drove Brett I think partly drove right and but but so now just as most of Parliament thinks breaks it is a bad idea but we're doing it likewise in America most of the kind of most of American policies things Trump's potentially a disaster but they're sort of he's normalized and they go along with it is there not a danger I mean I suppose this is the question how much do you fear that actually there's something in him that actually would would the comparisons with the 30s and not quite as I arguably Tony about its Tony thought I was being ridiculous what he's doing on the on the Milan or what I mean is deeply yeah yeah it's day by day I mean somebody tweet the other day we became but been on a republic pretty quickly what I mean it is pretty good area yeah yeah Nixon it's sort of what Nixon did but more skillfully to when Watergate was happening yeah but then they don't you know but but it's more for this guy things you can do much more skillful than that yeah so you would think there we should be wary of parallels a lot what do you think that he's got fascist tendencies I think he's definitely got the very scary authoritarian tendencies is where I'd put it definitely and it's sort of by any means necessary if I mean I think he's pretty scary and and you know but he's not very poor he's not popular either mmm you know there's all kinds of about they say about your bees pretty like he's pretty low approval ratings justice I think he said though those times you've said no complaining buddy same blogger I think he's a bugger yeah yeah you wouldn't have said that when you're the leader no and ask you more relaxed I've won the election if I Modi would over the Asian but you are sort of emerging as a slight one of the reason GQ asked me to do the interview is that some people there was saying you're coming over in a different way so interesting isn't it but how does it does it know I'll tell you something that really pisses me off is when I do a tour I swore a lot as you know somebody when somebody comes up at the end of the tour and said you've completely transformed the way I think about you and the people drive you absolutely crazy basically you'd be very very high-profile for a very long time now you sort of do the post podcast and tweeting a bit and they think you're a completely different person yeah but what's the reason to though you got to be on solid you got analyze the reasons I mean I think it's two things one the inevitable constraints of the job so you can't say Donald Trump's arm or on me Jeremy quite said the her even Jeremy hasn't quite said that but also the self-imposed constraints I probably was too cautious about you know showing my show my personality sounds a bit weird but sort of you know you to constraint you if you label leader though I'm not I'm not sort of justifying it but I'm trying to explain to myself why it was like that if you're the label you feel like you're operating a political war zone right there are people in the media trying to kill you every day who you know they wake up in the morning they're told by Rupert Murdoch as he went there during the election and said I'd they weren't being tough enough on me you know that was their job and therefore it slightly that's kind of why you pass every word and think well if I'd say that you know but it will become Ed Miliband in foul-mouthed rant you know and ultimately it mattered I think I think it's probably right I think when you made the jump remember we talked about this at the time and you actually the first time when you came out and call for the Leveson and yeah I think you didn't liberated you yeah but but you still were kind of slightly living in their straitjacket she's funny I didn't really feel it at the time so you know absence of war there's a play they've done in the 1990s about Neil yeah connect and I think he liked the play very much but I remember going to see the play and and it was quite a lot in my mind that play because I felt it captured something about being trapped about being trapped I always thought I must avoid that so I said didn't sort of think to myself at the time I'm trapped but you came back but maybe well maybe it's what came across you know maybe it's sort of what comes across to people hmm it's very hard to sort of see yourself as others see you particular in that role in the bubble and you know sort of but always talking to the people coming out of that thing the other night they were also he's very natural but what do you think it's down to I think it's down I think it's the down to the the stent of the scrutiny maybe makes you subconsciously at some level change from what you are and you just become very very defensive where is actually what people looking for is somebody who comes out is not defensive we I'm talking about McIntosh disease your Mac roams the other really interesting phenomena politics a moment yeah who is it maybe a bit of an antidote to some of the things you were saying oh well he's got but but the things you were let's see how he does but he's got the sort of change outside a thing that's a cool bin or a trump or a bricks it has hasn't he yeah he's okay for the bankers yeah okay but he's managed to political outside yeah that's by the way that's just not to get off him but that's one of the interesting things look when you look at so does it dinner the other night when you look at Social Democratic parties less parties around the world the French got six percent in the election the Dutch got six somebody was saying well they're up to twelve you know who I mean he's cool I mean he's a crisis I think partly that this crisis is about whether you're the sort of managers of globalization that make it slightly nice whether you can offer something different and you'd say micron was measure of globalization well I don't know I think the jury's out I don't want to criticize him because I think you know he's obviously an interesting politician in the way that he's trying to shape a new vision for France and all of that he's the one I mean I didn't go to Davos and I find the whole thing pretty horrible but I spoke to him to go from the BBC he was there he said for all the coverage of Trump macro was the kind of moment yeah Mac Rome was the the person that he felt was like this is the change now it's very imagined that Jeremy Corbyn probably thinks micron was a bit of a bit bit but he's not as he were he doesn't seem to be somebody things the world has moved to the left he thinks you know he's got this sort of he's pretty centrist dad in his politics and I haven't talked to him about it but I mean look III don't I think I met him once when I met a lot I don't know okay curious he's the leader he might be the latest Prime Minister I don't see as much you're obviously striving to you know go find new ideas I haven't since the election actually heard him saying much that he wouldn't have said before the election because he seems to pride himself on not really changing his mind about anything and I just wondered is it if there's a lack of basic curios no I don't think so uh you need for leadership he's a leader of the Labour Party you know what that's like I mean mostly you're getting all this stuff he's very good at dealing was not very good at dealing with the staff we're giving him that he's amazingly karma and I thought that came through in the election he just pushes it away bounce seems to bounce off him as good as a real quality but I'm talking about how you explore the world which is defined by the pace of change and how you make sense of that world and then come up with the ideas for it I don't sense that curiosity oh I like the question was it was it Jeff or Ruby who said the thing about cockroaches you're doing the pee you know you could be down there eating cockroaches would you ever the Kezia root what about he had balls room what was that dancing I can't dance no but he's a better dancer you didn't know [Laughter] he's what sticks with people and I mean again what does it say about our world that the wretched bacon sandwich stop what is that about but why did that speak so many million words do you know I don't know but every single person in the audience of the night when the money was mentioned laughed and they knew about it and they remembered it in a way that they won't necessarily remember your great speeches about inequality and as ayesha rather I thought very funnily said you know you've literally would be sort of a city they're almost in tears ago worried about inequality and yet that wretched bacon sandwich it's like I don't think that's why I lost the election I'm more saying it is no I'm not saying it is any more than Sheffield lost Neal the election really but it's really weird what sticks with the sandwich although yeah and what that says about really built up by the media it's partly a funny picture yeah I mean I think he's just saying I think three months after the election if we'd had this conversation you could go on like they sort of I'd have felt slightly pained about it yeah and now I just sort of feel you laugh at it yeah ish well I did one with on the boat you know on the motor it was that about what was that about the fonz thing about well you know the program the last legs that's the only celeb thing i doing you haven't done much have you I feel I feel this is a great honor for GQ that you do your sort of proper sit-down interviews every one of us need to be interviewed obviously corset I haven't done much personality stuff no and I think I think it's partly because you've got something to say then you can say it and I've you know I feel like developing his digital think-tank develop building on the cheerful podcast the idea of cheerful thinking going out there was stuff that I sort of feel ready to do that in a way whereas maybe I did in a year ago and also I think once you've been the leader of the Opposition you know a period of silences you know kind of people completely quiet rainfall would you ever go to the Lord's no definitely didn't think no I don't want to be down on the other bomb to the Lord's but do we know what about you know your mate tried to get me Jeremy no I just don't own Ian Gordon how do you when do you think back to that year it was all very smooth no no that was smooth and orderly it said of it if you had one word you have to describe that whole period dysfunctional really that be the word their relationship the whole period the whole period the government yeah great I mean we did a great thing so the relationship is functional yeah that different [Music] no I would disagree with that but they sort of had its kind of brighter moments yeah but it's sort of did you know you were called the emissary from Planet from you proud of that well it's nice to be an emissary but you know something I do think it's or reflect something about me which is it's why said earlier about Tony and Jeremy I think it's quite good to try and seen good in people and people within the Labour Party are I listen I see good in everybody I just worry about where the Labour Party is going and I think we're I think that you're not bit sectarian to them I know you say others a sectarian are you not bit sectarian mmm maybe a bit yeah no give that no but I I think partly it's this feeling that this this sort of atmospherics that we we're kind of always behaving like we've won and I are - I am Oh utterly obsessed with winning and I feel sometimes that we I don't know I think we've slightly lost that obsession I think that's a bad thing in a dangerous thing and I think the Tories have not lost it another winning power is very very important yeah what sort of stuff has come your way that you've rejected I don't want to do that Walkers crisps advert with Gary Lineker really yeah early on I think I could be promoting crisps I mean I like garlic or a lot but you know he's a good great guy but I've been then he's quite - the money with the Oscar with the offering we got to that stage you could you could have done a big thing of saying I'll do it if I give it to a homeless charity good Denis Healey didn't he did yeah he did was it tea or cakes or something yeah okay what else have you rejected quite a lot dried rough Liberty Drive program mm-hmm your own program no no you get Top Gear you go and be a rally no no no how you gonna be a rally driver it sort of type of okay thing you know you get people who are not thinking dancing on ice right the the not the I'm a celebrity I'm a celebrity but there's all post-match commentary I'm a celebrity what was I don't know not in Australia but I don't know anyway so not even the main event not also the stuff is coming your way that you have decided to do have I got news I'm done have I got news they've asked me what else oh well I'm doing this commission for shelter which is on social housing I'm really quite excited about this I mean this is you know we haven't thought about Grem fall but I mean if ever there was a Pauling symbol of you know the files just no pulling event but I think for a lot of people it symbolized something deeper about council health tenants not listen to you you know etc the view people take about social housing and so shelters set up this commission chaired by the vicar of the church the Methodist Church of Grenville me side of rc4 Matauri Minister Jim O'Neill you know it was also Tory Minister so it's all about political and political balance and I'm reporting within the but I think you know if you're thinking about big chunky things that can change the country big push on social housing on at scale but also making sure that we learn those lessons about tenants being listened to and so on and you know I think it's all I mean it's a housing crisis is one of the biggest issues I think we face as a country so her anger is very relevant in my breezin for that is I'm not gonna get into the entire I know how difficult it was being lived alone but I'm not going to get into the internal dynamics although did you have a situation where the National Executive was telling you to counsel what to do about his housing policy I don't know the details of it honestly he's in the FT send mean abusive text I've never abused you I've disagreed with you passionately also issues from time to time no you sent me a kind of quite rude text during the Corben leadership election saying you know something yeah you did it doesn't matter hold it a lot forgot I don't hold anything you did tell a story very funny story the other day about we said to you the wrong text oh yeah but you know what actually I got the text wrong what the text you sent me was maybe he's got a tattoo on his ass right and and that was because Rory had said you attacked by Rory yeah that sent you a text about my wedding suit saying why does that look like a reformed football hooligan you then sent him a text saying maybe he's got a tattoo on his ass I'm then in the car with a steed leaving the happiest day of my life and I get a text master Campbell saying maybe he's got a tattoo on his ass I say to Justine I think somebody's like so I send you a message saying embarrass reply I wish putting the penny drop oh I was in a discussion with that was meant for Rory I think you fest up actually yeah I always fess up in the end yeah yeah well my friend Paul Fletcher we do my written a novel about a football and and I of the IRA has got a tattoo on his ass and it's the if the album is a Beatles album cover Wow and this is too much information his wife's got the same one I've not seen it I've seen what it's about isn't all mr. Miller thank you very much [Music] you

Channel: British GQ

Views: 193,601

Rating: 4.7772446 out of 5

Keywords: ed miliband sandwich, ed miliband interview, ed miliband, alastair campbell gq, alastair campbell, alastair campbell brexit, reasons to be cheerful, ed miliband podcast, gq, british gq, gq interview, ed miliband stone, uk gq, gq uk

Id: XJQKbIu0zA0

Length: 61min 7sec (3667 seconds)

Published: Tue Apr 24 2018