Abby is Abysmally Written (The Last of Us 2) | EFAP Highlight

takes its time setting the stage and getting you invested in its characters and then they all start it literally did the opposite it gave us all the payoffs before the investment it's designed specifically to do that even the developers wanted do that way so what you just said is just wrong e the example I think about to refute that statement is the Dina relationship you're just supposed to accept that they're already in love and and that's it it's the best I could give him is interested to see where these people will go but like the whole idea is can we make you understand an event that is horrific after the fact but like they bungled it hardcore and so what I'm suggesting is like they get you invested first and then they do the thing and I'm just like I mean you could argue that in like a small sense with showing us Joel and Ellie chilling out at first before all that [ __ ] happens but in terms of Abby the entire goal is to invest you in here after the payoff MH CU because that's an interesting challenge as a wrer it's an interesting challenge it's just they did they want to recontextualize herp well like the big problem is that what she does is hideous like it's it's sadistic so it's really like if you're going to go with that level it's really hard to bring that back and all they do he should shot him once once just shot him once executed him let's go yeah he's done it's over as far as I'm concerned that would be in character from what I've learned about Abby it would be her push to a very limit she will execute a person it's like damn execute but it's like how do you justify a person who does what she does in that scene is like well I I don't just talk him I don't even know that we can create an endearing character that did what she did in the opening like I think you can you have to make them Disturbed you have and the best you can do is just understand how they got there but they didn't do that they created someone else and they were like please like yeah you're like which is weird because it's such a natural fit to the revenge story thing yeah they decided not to go with it there was no repercussions from it it it wasn't as if we went to that Abby and she was kind of like maybe this is how Abby normally is and then we never saw any sort of uh thoughts or uh questioning herself as regards to what she did what happened with Joel nothing the best you get is that she says she feels guilt and she's very specific about this guilt and it could it could NE it doesn't necessarily have to do with Joel it could be about scar treatment could be about the wrongs that the wlf have done um but I think the game was trying to get at you that she doesn't feel 100% great about what she did to Joel and it's like wow why don't you explore that explore that give me time with that yeah they never explored anything with any character well if you remember the class we got was Owen almost called her out and same with Mel by the way the they consider what she did in the in the ski lodge to be messed up and he's like what I go find the guy who killed by parot beat the [ __ ] out of with a golf and then they have sex it's like oh well okay like seems like we will go somewhere with that but never mind yeah that's another thing that bothers me about this whole forgiving Abby [ __ ] it doesn't feel like she earns the Redemption because she's not sorry no that she's doing to Joel what Joel technically tried to like so she's killing Joel because he killed her uh her dad Joel killed her dad because the dad threatened to kill Ellie like I don't understand how you can once you know that Abby it's like isn't this a little difficult to call Justice because you're doing the exact same thing really yeah they were going to kill a a 14-year-old girl on the hope that they could culture a vaccine which the 100% in charge of so do you think they're just going to start skipping around planet Earth going here's some vaccine for you and here's some vaccine for you it's worth mentioning uh Joel didn't canonically didn't torture uh the doctor so people bring it up in chat it's like so shot her you just shot her once he Joel should have known ahead of time what would happen so he he needs to torture that doctor to make sure he gets the right for Abby he's like I better torture this person otherwise Last of Us two won't make sense got got to do it again if they were operating off the function of an i for an I then when Joel saved aby's life then Abby would have had a conflict of interest because technically she owes Joel that's the thing man that's the perfect setup for actual like a meaningful conflict in your head there's so much drama you can get out of that I know but did he no but I tell you what he got a teenager and a couple of gay girls in it so that's all right then that's everything he want can I tell you an example of a of this so I was thinking of a scene and then my brain was like wait you've seen this scene and I was like oh my God it's in that film so um but it's such a different context but it's still very applicable so I see like you know Abby Joel and Tommy moving through buildings and something and uh there's a part where where Joel has like fallen on something and he's grabbing onto a ledge and she's the only one there to comp him back up or she could kick him off it and you know she sits there for a little bit staring at him and he's like help you know what what what's going on or he doesn't realize he's looking around he's just trying to make sure he's okay and then she grabs him pulls him up and the camera's just sitting on her face where she's like almost blank it's just like it's something she had to do but is that the thing she wanted to do I don't know [ __ ] Lord of the Rings does it with Gollum when uh he sees the ring coming off Frodo's uh uh chain and for strling that's right when they're climbing up at minus morg and he could push him you he could push him and take it but he doesn't and uh again different context but these are the kinds of payoffs we could have had we're constantly stressed out that this girl wants to kill Joel but she can't quite justify it she's having trouble she she spends time with that decision yeah she do she doesn't have any problem like that I I keep saying it it's like the perspective is not interesting that that's the problem with Abby it's like it's she's not an interesting character no she got her revenge she felt bad and now she's trying to make up for it in some unrelated plot it's so you think they work over time to try she got she got her revenge she said she felt bad in the throwaway line never to be mentioned again yeah well like imagine at the third quarter of the game cuz Joel's still like again I I say this like it's just impossible to do but [ __ ] it with throwing out everything that L ofus 2 actually is and you know uh Ellie could be on her own adventure it doesn't it doesn't really matter I'm just I'm I'm just focusing on different ideas for payoffs and you know like they get through loads of stuff Joel and Abby and then eventually they're in a room relatively safe and she just breaks down she's just tearing crying her eyes out and she tells him everything all the context that he's unaware of and uh I just I wonder how that information would sit with him cuz she's not saying I'm going to kill you she's just sitting there crying because she doesn't know how to deal with this and he's just like [ __ ] especially if they've become you know relative allies if not friends yeah interesting position to put Joel in as well because I imagine he'd be on the side of the fence of do it and then going going the route of your standard sort of Affair instead of a subversive one you could then have your scene where someone has to stay behind to do something to let other people escape and he he like is absolutely the one and you know he sees it as a sort of like recompense and uh you could have it that Abby doesn't want him to do it but uh that's the the arkc if you will even though I think that's even have had a you could have even have had a in that sense you could have had this relationship with them built up you could have had the um uh the the the admittance of it all of of what had happened what Joel's you know responsible for you could have even had Abby broken down crying with the gun in her hand and then you could have even done The Gunshot you could have done the gunshot with black I mean it could would have worked in that phase and then you would have gone did she kill him did she just shoot did she not kill him and then you have Abby leave and the and the camera sort you know the music sort of comes and then the camera just slowly sort of follows the pathway into the house and down the stairs and into the room and then he could have had Joel dead on the floor and like I said my idea sounds like in that in that scenario there and and and yours there's all problems that can come with them and there's lots of ideas been like oh that's of course the story you go with it's so generic Hollywood or something like that they be like yeah but I don't know how about we have one of them instead this time we keep getting sub versive stories that land like a [ __ ] ton of bricks I just don't think that I don't think we should throw out the whole like hey how about a normal standard issue story that just teaches a lesson about the complexity of humanity how about that bit Li I'm a bit lighter in this aspect than you guys I think because like one thing I want to be clear about from my perspective is don't think the setup they have is unworkable and I would be very interested to see it made work I think that could make like a really good story but's incredibly ham-handed is the problem I mean we we've been going through that I think along the stream as well trying to chip away all different kinds of fixes one of the first things we said was like execute Joel instead of torturing him because it makes it really hard for us to understand you as a character when you seem to be more interested in causing pain than get that's the funny thing they make Abby consistent remember when she was going to kill Dina and she found out she was pregnant you know what she says good good people keep people keep saying that oh that's because Ellie killed what's her what's her name again yeah but she didn't give a fck about Mel she cried about Owen shut the f about shut the f about that male [ __ ] it's with regards to her killing Jo I I don't know if this is just me being like it's probably mostly the fact that I'm just very uncomfortable with definitive statements about what you can and cannot do in media anyway is like I think you can have her torture him but like every decision you make early on about how she handles that scene is going to inform how you tell your story later and that's the big part my contention was if we keep all the Abby flashbacks and gameplay the same we can't have her torturing him if you want to keep the torturing the same we're going to have to change her as a character yeah I'm I completely agree with that if she if she does the torturing like she does then the story of Revenge has got to be Ellie systematically goes through her friends and kills them in increasingly horrific ways I quite I quite like the one where she watches someone cough their lungs out because of the spores while she stands over them immune that shit's cool as an idea yeah oh yeah very very much so but it it's got to be that know it's the sum of its parts and it can't just be a singular Cog um and if the Revenge story was was was told through that lens then you've got to get rid of this deatha notion of trying to get you on to Abby's side because ultimately at the end of the game you need this big cocky Butch woman that smashed Joel's heading with a golf club to be broken down and beaten psychologically by this wispy girl it's who gone through and annihilated her friends because of it it it feels like a very like mistaken ambition because I don't need to be on aby's side to understand what she like I don't need to back Abby morally 100% to like understand or perhaps sympathize or get something compelling out of what she does I'd applied the same kind of logic to Joel like Joel isn't a character 100% morally behind at all times necessarily he's done horrible things we know that so like yeah that's what I say it's like it's not that deep it's not that deep guys oh God it's stop saying that it is it's like it's not it's not really compc oh she has another perspective oh so does every else everyone else in reality it's like that's not really well the extreme that we came up with before I think the stream started was uh you watch Hitler do all of his worst things and then you have a flashback to Hitler when he was 10 he's Mr Rogers and it it's just that for 10 hours and you're like okay this is really this isn't doing anything for me just like this isn't telling me anything about the things that's that are actually G to like give me anything to go with on this character yeah they they they had Hitler gting the Jews at the beginning and then halfway through the game they had Hitler drawing some painted painting some pictures of his dogs playing Fetch with his dog in on theils [ __ ] scenario oh that b is so bad it's like play fetch with the dog okay and you will like it oh I have a question about that uh people say that that scene is skippable is that true I couldn't skip it I tried I tried to get out of the room it wouldn't let me until I uh played oh my God yeah the camera is like the camera tilted to the dog right well there's a that's another thing that there's two doors suggested that lead and they don't become openable until you the fetching oh me because that's that's how story Works in games just why why make it interactable if it means nothing to interact yeah that's another thing the game is afraid of being a game for sure yeah yeah they have to rely afraid it's afraid of giving you Choice it's absolutely afraid of giving you Choice yeah if you don't choose the right things they don't think the narrative will work so you have to do those things at which point why is this game a movie but the narrative didn't work halfway through the game everything resets the clock turns back three days now can we pause here I just want to say that kills the pacing that really killed the pacing of the game for it's the second time it killed the pacing because when I saw everything Joel dying people screaming and then going through his house having to deal with everything just happened and then it's like now it's time to begin the adventure across Seattle I'm like I I don't uh I'm not this is oh I mean oh is that what we're doing now guess and then we work through 10 hours of [ __ ] to finally get to the big payoff in the theater with our characters and then it cuts it right in the middle of the drama and goes time for another brand new adventure when I found out all my resources had been reset I was like h no can Gamers can I also say that that is the mo the when I played through Abby that is the moment they were really trying to make him her Joel when her weapons are an analog to what Joel uses in the game Ellie's weap sh Ellie Ellie chooses not to pick up weapons that are better than the ones she's holding but Abby yeah like Abby gets the hunting pistol which is L Diablo Abby gets the flamethrower Abby gets the rifle at the end of Joel's campaign as the default weapon I love how they give her a crossbow too she like she's got to have arrows too okay like all right oh it's different because it's a crossbow and she punches people to death oh no and she also has the shibs you know Jo's thing it's like so blatant friend's lives in constant danger and yet she keeps taking it further then halfway through the game everything resets the clock I like that he says she keeps taking it further when at the climax she takes it back to zero that's she actually Retreats right like they decide to retreat if you would say like she's pushing it the only time she really pushes it was when she chooses to go after Abby instead of Tommy that's like the only instance I can think of where it's like oh wow she's losing sight of the real important things but then you know soon after she's like no let's go home yeah let's go home now it's not consistent so it sounds good you're okay you're okay with going home and she lives yeah this what I mean what Dunkey said sounds good but it doesn't really represent what happens in the game turns back 3 days and now you play as the villain Abby who is a hardened killer that starts to reconnect with her lost Humanity thanks to the innocence of her child companion sound like anybody you know it's obvious yeah well no it's it's so funny that that's all it takes we the the theme of this stream has clearly been commenting on how shallow the game is and when you have people reviewing it this way it's like you like Joel but you're Abby it's so good like oh can we talk about like what's so meaningful about each of these characters and why it's like no no yeah you know how the the the one character of Ellie that was always wise cracky and funny and amusing and trying to break down Joel's defenses throughout the whole of the first game is now a robot that says go you like him yeah no I think we all understand that the key to making any Dynamic well any Arc and interaction like that is their Dynamic with the characters around them and for that you need much better dialogue writers than you have on hand apparently well yeah because everything is cliche as hell in uh aby's opening scenes it's it's all handcrafted to be like hey show them stuff will make them like her okay what what's in our list it's like uh she likes animals uh she's nice to friends she looks after people have I walk past people who are like hey Abby you're awesome past a gym that says look she's walked past a gym that's why she's massive like a roided up steroid abusing Portuguese shot putter and I also say that if they do have a gym why how come Abby is the only one who's jacked exactly that's another thing that bothered me where's the steroids yeah yeah that's another thing uh and why isn't she eating seven meals a day of high protein why isn't she sleeping 10 hours a day to maintain why doesn't she do any lifting whatsoever in the whole [ __ ] thing yeah I mean do you want a gritty realistic world or you just want it to look like that and you don't want to commit but it was just so dumb the way they did her anyway like I said because in all the flashbacks she's just a regular girl so why did they feel the necessity on the between the last flashback and this to suddenly turn her into a voided up Mr Universe they actually feebly set it up right like in the aquarium I think Abby goes oh I benched 185 and and Owen doesn't believe her and something like that well the argument I've heard is that you know she saw your dad die and she vows to you know become a super strongman to be able to you know fight bad people from now on and it's like uh okay why didn't we see that like story yeah yeah that's another thing uh I don't see Abby becoming I didn't see Abby deciding to be evil does that make sense yeah we've never seen her drive there's no drive with this character no we just see her dad die and I don't see the point where go I I'll be evil the the the strangeness of like so when they gave me Abby and and I saw all of this I got it I I was like oh I see what you're doing so first of all you're going to establish she's she's a good person right and these are all good people sure I get it then you you cycle outside of the base then you're attacked by the the Waring faction then you end up in some warehouse and you have to fight zombies and I remember being like what are we doing like why don't guys you need to use your time a bit better you need to endear me to her instead of just like why are we wasting our time on this like I don't care you have your work cut out for you endearing player to a character who's killed probably one of that player's favorite characters if not their favorite in the game well yeah there's an argument I've heard Flo around where it's like people didn't love Joel that much I was like you nuts Joel uh Joel's beloved as from what I what I remember you've really got to get on that and you need to not be so ham-handed about it did you see did any of you see the guy the Korean streamer that cut this disc after immediately after he saw the Jo well I'm done I don't agree with the perspective fully like that's I can see that's what that does to some a lot of people's investment just that happens so brutally and well contrived and you're just like I don't want to yeah I don't want to play anymore it's a hard really yeah it's like why go on what's no I mean so somebody in chat asked Joel shouldn't have died I think you could bral Joel death properly I would I'm take the opposite position and say Joel absolutely should die I would have killed him if it was my last of us two yeah yeah should have or shouldn't have either way yeah you could have a story work with him being alive or dead that's not really the important part absolutely the problem is the way they did it the way they did it they ignored everything that made Joel a good character they ignored everything that made Tommy interesting and they just killed him off so they rely on the good love and happiness that you have with these old characters so they can just [ __ ] on him to use him as nothing more than ammunition apparently the uh the stream you were talking about apparently his his dad had died recently and apparently Joel reminded him of uh oh see good job well I mean that's not something we can hold the developers responsible for but that's very unfortunate yeah yeah just sucks uh also people are saying that like several people said so I'm assuming this is true but I hav't I don't I don't know but cosal is the one who said people don't like Joel or Joel's not beloved cuz I already saw in the Discord that's what I like someone said that like there's an argument that uh you know that's a load of absolute bollocks well yeah like that's just not true I don't know what else to say Jo's pretty beloved I would argue he's one of the most beloved characters on the PlayStation like the IPS of the PlayStation yeah yeah especially given how massively influential The Last of Us was well we'll be covering we'll be covering Co another time but uh that'll be your protagonist from the last game just gets horrifically murdered in the first two hours and then Barely Used again well that was even in flashback so this is the argument that I think they think that we're have because we're talking about all the mechanics that led to it and how broken it is but they think what we're talking about is the mere Act of him dying so early no it's how well that's the thing if we if we let's say all the mechanics made complete sense uh in the boardroom I would like I've said this on the stream before but it's like I would caution uh the developers or the writers i' be like you might not want to kill him uh that early it's just going to it's going to upset people cuz they really like him that's all and if they were like yeah I don't okay I'd be like all right that's yeah you could definitely go that way but then of course my next argument would be hey guys I checked out the marketing what the you might want to uh not lie to people I just put it out there yeah yeah manipulate yeah we're gonna take the things that you liked and you love and you're connected with and we're gonna just use that it's just it's just a resource for us to use yeah the trailers make it look like Joel is coming along Ellie's Revenge trip that that's the thing that bothered me when when you look back yeah Ellie's got something to do and Joel's with a to do it they very purposely it up to look like Dena was the one that was killed was going up yeah with Joel on a Revenge mission for for dena's death and of course with how the game begins Joel and Alia clearly there's something between them that's a bad blood and of course you can use the lie quote unquote as part of their drama that's going to be dealt with over the Journey of the game of them getting revenge for Dina and you could already it's like whoa we got lots to work with lots to work with but no that's not what we got well that's the thing none of these are what we got we got this thing and and and if if you like again it can work uh but but this thing does not work that's that's that's that's the problem they're going to try and humanize and develop all these characters now looking from the other side and at first you reject them you go these guys I don't care about first and at second and at third yeah for the rest of the game it's only until they are killed that you feel happy like yeah yeah you good you're glad when they die you celebrate when they're dead after what they did like you I hate to put it like this but you pretty much have to trick your players into liking them yeah it's tough I mean the zebra if anything else is the most it's hilarious when you see stuff like that because you know exactly what they're doing you can't be that on the nose about it because we're going to see it coming a while away and we're going to be offended I mean I don't know I just it's it's child and I just don't understand I don't know how it like I don't want to insult people by call the world's greatest dad in the world Abby come here we need to save this zebra I always felt that um Terminator 2 was the the seminal piece of media to teach writers this lesson it's not actually about like oh they like zebras is is why do they why was everyone cryed when the stupid robot died it's like the because it's a lot more complicated than just oh they're a nice person though but they're a nice person it's like it's not about that look at look at all the interactions look at what they do for a person and how how does someone get inar to you I feel like Joel should have been the easy archetype for them to understand this from like people who condemn uh other people for liking him or thinking he's a good person like we're going we're probably going to have words about that uh when we cover the COS not one apparently I imagine um whether or not someone's a good person is not what defines how much you'll enjoy them or like them that's just this like this is some writing 101 [ __ ] a lot of my favorite characters are not good people in fiction no I you don't have to morally align with a character to like be committed to what they're doing in some way or immersed in their actions and understanding of them and compelled by them that's what warmer is the ultimate example of that like everyone in that thing is a horrible terrible person and people love it and they're rooting for characters and they're totally diving in that's what I meant with T2 he's not human he doesn't have he can't share his moral system he doesn't have one and so what do you think that tells you like as a writer Joel with golf except for the dog I like him but as you keep playing eventually you I know that was a tiny comment right but seriously that's entirely what it's there to do yeah I don't yeah you hear people the game like this and you're like how simp how simple is your mind yeah like I don't feel like oh I'm enlightened by my own intelligence kind of tight but you hear people talk about stuff like this I'm like man your standards are just Subterranean well I don't I don't want to reference this too hard cuz I want everyone to go see it uh film called The Hunt but from 2013 okay now there's a dog I'm going to try and remain as spoiler free as possible in here there's a there's a dog that is simply a dog that is in the house and it's a part of a guy's life cuz the guy has a pet which is pretty [ __ ] common and let's just say story relevant to the dog isn't exactly uh overt or on the nose for a long time simply that he has a dog do you like dogs cool cuz there's a dog that's it's just a dog that scene is like this is the scene in which you will like the dog good we have completed the scene in which you will like the dog next scene is the scene in which you will like this particular character this is the scene in which Manny will share that he likes his father you will now like Manny your like what the Yeah so basic and contrived it's it's ridiculous but I mean this is why this is why companies do it because I mean I don't care if people hate me for it because people like Dunkey are just going to be all on board with its incredibly simplistic just paint by number style of presentation people eat it up I'm not trying to assume too much about him it's just he he's like ah I like the dog and I'm like damn that's exactly what they want you just go like yeah I like the dog part with the dog because it specifically designed to make you you say that that's that's exactly the problem here we're already predisposed against this character very heavily right so the split second we're made aware they want me to like them and they're being quite clear about that effect we're just going to recoil even harder against the character yes yeah because it's so it's it it feels this game is extremely artificial yes well steps away steps away from the characters all walking through and then someone goes hey Abby and she goes what do you remember that time We rescued orphans from a building that was on fire I do remember that and and this is why I related it to our our talk about the Dawn I was like that was for memes we did that for memes not to make an actual hard-hitting dramatic story and the funny thing about the Abby flashback the first day I even hate her more because Mel talks about how uncomfortable she was killing kids and aby's like [ __ ] them kids it's so what is this game trying to do I don't understand it's like um I it's probably with bringing up as well if because I was just thinking about the time when Manny uh Mel and Abby are all talking to each other I'm assuming you guys remember this part but um they do the theme but it they it's really hammering it into your cerebral cortex they're going right forward so they're like uh you know X killed y yeah but y killed Z yeah but Z killed a yeah but B killed c yeah but it's like game I get it I get it the cycle of violence it's soing bad stop game [ __ ] Naro did better show game come on try hard find yourself getting wrapped up in their Dr it's that Naruto did it better I think that's funny because it's true she is seeking revenge against this character Abby who brutally murdered her sort of adopted father Joel as you track Abby to Seattle where she's part of a militant group called The Wolves and for 3 days you go on a war path through the city in an attempt to find her it's set up exactly like a traditional Revenge story with Ellie hunting down everyone responsible for Joel's death while growing increasingly obsessive erratic and bloodthirsty but then that's true no a erratic and bloodthirsty but you can't really let if we call it from A to B to C to D it's like um super Ang angry B is like yeah pretty angry C is like yeah most angry now and then D is let's go back so it's like I don't I don't think we can call that like a rising blood Vengeance Fury I'd be like ah I need to know what his referencing that's problem I always have these people why don't they reference things the same thing dkey said didn't it yeah I'd like you to tell me exactly where this comes from because I can't see it I assume that like we can guess where they got it from which was that it kind of feels that way things are getting more Stripped Away as time goes on but it's like it doesn't actually if you think about the events they don't quite actually go that way yeah it put it to put it cynically or yeah I think I feel like they're tricked by the high concept of the game I mean when you're write the script I think that feels like the thing to say Revenge story and that's how revenge stories go so that's how this one is going when the facts of the matter don't really support that oh the funny thing is if they played through the game on my part but you know if you played through the game you'd notice that Ellie actually hangs back and like what mer said the the time that she goes like oh maybe vengeance is wrong is when she chose Abby over Tommy that's the only time I went oh no the only one I can think of we get a few lines every now and then in conversations of her being I guess like vaguely Disturbed in that regard she I mean they obviously the scene is the spores and everything's covered in red they're obviously like look how bad she's become guys but then you get to really though well you get to the aftermath where she's like you know kind of freaking out about what she's done and she's got loads of wounds and stuff and then you move on to yeah let's go home okay let's let's do it let's go home and then trundles in and you're like oh so yeah I don't know it's just a weird way to look at it I I don't think that's what actually is in the thing but people keep saying it is yeah I think it's cynically speaking being tricked by the high concept it looks like a Revenge story so it's probably going to play out like a Revenge story right and that's how they usually go yeah they usually just keep cranking up every time yeah but uh you look at you look at Alie in the opening where she's like I want toing kill you i' be like that's probably pretty high on the scale actually you know yeah and then she's baning around with Dina hide out and has the upper hand when the game smash cuts to Black rewinds theing yeah the game oh what you something interesting well we can't have any of that look zebra if people were curious about like why this is such a problem it's it's like you you're you're both watching you know revenge's end game and the three uh you know Thor Iron Man and cap engage with Thanos then someone hits PA and goes do you want to watch an episode of The Simpsons and you're like no not right now you're like well okay yeah let's do that right now we'll come back to end game always be there for us yeah let's watch they're not going anywhere I think a better analogy would be like just before they fight Thanos we cut to the guy driving thanos's vehicle and how they got to that point before the fight starts well couldn't you argue um I guess the most app would actually be you start watching Iron Man from start to finish at the moment they're about to battle Thanos and it's like let's get some history on this Tony Stark guy you're like I mean okay yeah yeah let's see how Tony Stark became the known as Iron Man like I hate it you to play the next 10 hours from the villain's perspective leading up to this showdown yeah I don't even know that you can say it's from the villain's perspective other than not trying vill in a literal sense like CU cuz what what I feel that he's trying to get across is that you know you you you have um you watch all of infinity War technically a lot of the scenes are From thanos's perspective and they could have done it so that it's exclusively from the heroes no scenes with him and then you release a second move movie and we follow him so you know the opening is him attacking the ship that Thor and uh Loki are on and then as soon as he teleports out we follow him to wherever he ended up and we follow him throughout the whole thing that would be that what we see in The Last of Us two is not necessarily her perspective on the same events as Ellie it's just it's just what she's getting up to in the day that Ellie's getting up to stuff too it's like okay there's no recontextualization to be there because there's no like everything that happens to her has nothing to do with Alie really yeah yeah this this this scene is the only time that they cross that's it that's the only time they actually other than that you know the hospital scene aby's already kind of like done her stuff so yeah nothing that you're particularly doing is having any effect on Abby and of course what he's describing makes it sound a lot more clever than it actually is this the second time he's done it it's like damn okay this has been a very contentious decision hasn't it it's not for everyone but in this video I want to talk about why the switch worked for me and what I got out of that experience part one play don't show engage your brain how can it not be shown sh also most of the dramatic [ __ ] in this game is shown it's a trying to do an ex he's trying to do an expansion on show don't tell but surely it's play Don't Tell right showing yeah I put I would classify playing under showing yeah yeah yeah I agree with you guys I think you should have said Play Don't Tell most commonly repeated piece of writing advice is show don't tell you can't tell your audience how to feel you have to show them how to feel so they actually the [ __ ] you like can tell us how to feel also what is he talking about they they have several characters Express how good Abby is to us game tries very hard to tell me how to feel yeah I I couldn't disagree with obnoxious it's yeah that's part of why everyone hates it like we get really annoyed with having the tell very over yeah this is an m-rated game stop treating me like I'm 12 not to mention get it man the first game's ending they do not tell you how to feel about Joel's decision it's very up in the air yeah couldn't really blame you for being has an example of the difference because it does both for the same scene at the beginning of the game we are told about the events of a dance that happened the previous night let me see if I got this right you kissed Dena she kissed me which triggered Seth to call you a not so nice word yep I can't believe that dke is the word that he wasn't gonna say like I thought it yeah like especially like guys let's be honest if you're friends and uh like you're talking about some insult someone through at you you'll just be like he called you a dyke damn can't believe he called you a dyke you would go he called you a meanw oh my God he called you a you know that but remember you're dealing with 20 a 25y old deep apocalypse with a writer who wants to write as if it's uh 2020 sensibility and also it doesn't work the the whole dialogue between so many of these people don't work because you can't have modern day dialogue modern day sensibility in a 25 the apocalypse and if you're in if you're you're Jesse here that's Jesse right yeah yeah make sure make sure my names and face are matched up um it's kind of more of dickish to not just say Dyke because now you're forcing her to go through her memories to pick out the word that was said so that she knows what he's referring to instead of him just saying it Joel de more of a push and then you got mad at Joel that part confused yeah Joel did something come Joel that confus it's like the game knows ahead of time the people are going to be confused by this so he's setting it up well early on like look I know you're going to be confused by it but trust us it makes total sense and then it doesn't poor Joel yeah yeah poor Joel yeah just rename the game poor Joel yeah Joel got done dirty you take in the information but you don't feel the emotion of the scene but then later in one of the game's many flashbacks you get to see the scene in full we don't learn much of anything new because it's right yeah and it was it was watching this scene that made me you know message to M while I was watching the stream like dude [ __ ] this yeah and also why is this game still going why is give a [ __ ] about this yeah this this scene at this part of the game I don't give a [ __ ] they don't know how brains work because they don't have any I wan to like I'm genuinely curious what were they what did they want from placing it this l oh I think what they were trying to do is that they were trying to show that Ellie is still bothered by letting Abby live so she's remembering the good quote unquote good memories or whatever memory she has of Joel like the whole flashbacks are Ellie being angry at Joel and coming to grips with trying to forgive him and Abby is the person that took that away from her that that is the whole purpose of the flashbacks but they are told in such a bad way the last flashback she says I want to start to try and forgive you yeah the point the game's trying to make is that like that's the big tragedy that was taken away is that those two could have healed their relationship but Abby stopped it which again in a Bard be like guys is that actually what you want to do tell the fans that their relationship was broken and they couldn't have healed it before he was brutally murdered is that what you want to do hooray why would that why would that memory be the impetus for forgiveness also hey if she can forgive Joel then surely she can forgive happy to work against seems to work against the way they play Ellie in this yeah I don't know Ellie Ellie's fuing horrible in game she is as as sup Columbo just said show don't tell then read six billion pages of diarrhea just like [Laughter] y yeah to the beats are the same but this time we really feel the emotion we can't just be told that ell is mad at Joel no yeah that's another thing it's so late in the game that I don't really care that says said Dyke no I don't the stakes are way too high to care about something like that yeah exactly exactly people rap so deep for character development on Dena at least I could put one guy called her a dyke as a character trait cuzz I just desperate for something by time Joel's had his head smashed in with a golf club and tortured every person is it Tommy's had his head shot he's had his knee shot uh dea's Pras and puking Jesse's dead Manny's dead Mel's dead Owen's dead Danny's dead Dave everyone's dead Dave and you're meant to be get [ __ ] worried because some guy goes hey Ellie you're you're a dyke oh [ __ ] off no gives a [ __ ] Sticks and Stones I like that he's implying that um first we understand the events and then we understand the emotion and it's like no when you explain to me in simple terms she was called a mean word Joel stood up for her and her and Joel got into some kind of you know tussle or whatever my brain went to like oh is it are we doing a kind of like he's protecting her indefinitely and she's like I'm not a little girl anymore that sort of thing but though they don't do that What's Happening Here is she's just like go away and he's like it's and my God you see his face and you see him like Cur away oh yeah and you're just like this makes it so much [ __ ] worse oh it could have been okay nope you right getto what is wrong with you he had no right and you do this is awes like this was the part on the stream I I yelled out audibly if there was someone else here they would have gone what I just randomly going what the hell Ellie it's like why is why why is naughty dog trying to make her the most insufferable they possibly could because Abby needed competition is a f leftist [ __ ] bucket broke how you write great great intersectional characters they're just [ __ ] oh so bad why why why you can't [ __ ] man like if someone did that for me I would be like you know you I'd be like I appreciate it you don't need to do that for me it's really okay like I I appreciate that you are willing to do that for me in front of everybody it shows that life remember he saved to live and she didn't want that well yeah that's what that's what the subtext is um but like she's being a there's just no way around it like if you break apart the literal meaning got uh he had no right and what he's referring to is he has no right to like you know bmit your choice your sexuality that's some [ __ ] up [ __ ] and then she's like you have no right to defend me and you're sitting like what that doesn't even make sense and then of course you're like yeah but she's referring to him having saved her without her permission and it's like what do you mean they were killing you without your permission what he did was save you like you can now make the Choice thanks to him you couldn't back then it's insane that like because it's what she wanted apparently that means he took the choice away from her it's like that is not how that works if you replay that scene Joel was trying to revive Ellie and the fireflies just knocked him the out yep Joel is supposed to believe these upstanding individuals [ __ ] off like he doesn't even explain that [ __ ] you know like you know what Ellie my first impression of your firef fry friends they not not really good they tried yeah they knocked me out when I was trying to revive you and that's the and I thought that was the last time I'd ever see you again I don't know why you would conclude anything if you really pay attention to everything that happens at the end of that first game it's like damn they seem almost like Dr Frankenstein levels of spooky these people yeah firef are [ __ ] that's the impression I got and these are the good guys really he saved a zebra for sake why can't he just love him what was just right starting to say again all right we we'll roll him back it's just we have so many issues with so many posss this game and that they all keep getting B up at different points in one of the games many flashbacks you get to see the scene in full we don't learn much of anything new by seeing it play out the beats are the same but this time we really feel the emotion we can't just be told that Ellie is mad no we don't I mean I was angry that they're killing basically character assassinating somebody but I don't think that was the emotion that they were going for I would agree with him that I felt uh I felt Joel's it may be way more upset poor Joel cu the thing he's not exclusively out of character in this game Joel there are a couple of moments we like that's Joel the the M was great he did a nice thing and he's getting shat on for it oh oh yeah by the way unlike kylo Ren uh he had a pretty badass lost line I can like people who are on a quest for her being on a quest for revenge is I'm totally fine with that he described the Quest for Revenge as way over the top I'd be like please be specific what you mean by that the the bride Kill Bill were we on board with her yes all the way through but God damn it so she wants to kill Abby that is the revenge in order to get to Abby she has to get through all these other people who are trying to kill her she kills them oh now you've gone Far Over The Line I be like what do you mean what are you talking about what are you referring to specifically please tell me along the L and if it's simply a number of people killed I'd be like so when in war once you've passed a certain line it's like no you need to go home this is going to be this is be far yeah there there's oh you got 10 kills good job your kill streak allows you to uh to stop to go home the implication is that the Revenge story was okay up until enough people died and I'd be like so what's the number Manny's head I mean but that was a good thing it was a very good thing we understand her anger but she's avenging someone who single-handedly did more damage to this world than anyone Poss uh possibly yeah that's a big possibly too yeah a faction that knocks him out Chucks him outside is going to get the power to inoculate who they want and they're going to become alteristic and and distribute it evenly amongst everyone don't forget they welched on the deal with him too he went through everything you could imagine to get her here oh and I think South B said that they do you think they wouldn't Leverage The vaccine to gain more power for their faction all the issues we're bringing up are all contingent on the the idea that they could save the world with this thing which is not true that is not true the world is whether or not you get a cure yeah they could only inoculate living people at the moment that is it which all of the how many people are trying to right now between the factions well were all of the issues with the faction in fighting wars did they have anything to do with the infection no it was just getting resources those things are still going to happen yeah not to mention that you need the only thing this helps with is people walking into spores or surviving bites that's the only thing this helps with and those two things are not killing that many people these days it is but if you want to look at the kill count tied to faction Warfare or to the infected ripping you to shreds the numbers are much higher yeah they'd be a lot lower if you sent out people to deal with the infected and gave them stuff like Armor's the thing the game doesn't earn this and you can you can lay this at the feet of theopus one or two but it's two that decided to condemn Joel as having destroyed the world in a SS it's like okay well that's not true Joe man bad they didn't think this through because they want to be childish and say it's a cure roll just chop off your head like okay possibly could think about what he did I did it was pretty good people are dead because of him how many people are dead because how many people are dead because of you guys no those people are dead because they got bit by infected let's not let's not play around with it he's not the reason why they're dead well unless she's referring to all the people in the building that were shooting at Joel in which case I feel like they signed their death warrant at that point yeah I feel like if you shoot somebody you gota kind of expect at least to a degree maybe they're going to shoot back or they won't maybe they'll fight back with a flamethrower yeah literally every death that happens after the first game is Joel's fault and wow wow wow there's your take ladies okay conclusion they didn't switch the brain on did they they didn't switch it how could you say that [ __ ] how could you say that that's amazing we have completely removed agency from every other [ __ ] character now yeah that's insane no no guys off switch Jo the zes I'm sorry what does just right think would have happened had Joel let Ellie die what exactly does he think would have happened no everyone will be get along and the zombies won't bite people we have a new the W still exists the scars still exist like what the like I'm happy to leverage like the best possible like the most idealistic outcome for that of okay The Cure The Cure would be instrumental in rebuilding the world I I could agree to that even though there's a lot of you know landmines along the road there but why do you why do people feel the need to frame what happened at the end of the game like this because it would make killing Joel justified in their version of the game I think that's what even if it's a long shot the ambiguities there but what about worth Ellie's life so on and so forth but you got one person how much vaccine are you going to be able to create and then you've got to try and distribute that That vaccine worlding wide yeah that's not going to happen the vaccine might only take care of those 10 Firefly people that they can get from Ellie that's the amount of ridic any time anyone goes on any Adventure we have to deal with hundreds of [ __ ] clickers trying to rip our faces off but no it'll be easy to get this cure to everybody in the world literally every death that happens after the first game is Joel's fault every single person in the world has caused that makes it just has extra personal reasons to hate him extra personal reason why how come her reasons are extra impersonal compared to the others well because that was a dad he was a dad he saved zebras so AB doesn't have any special reason she's just the protagonist of the half protagonist of this game that that's it I'm assuming he's appealing to the fact that she cared about him on a personal level rather than a general level she's an antagonist not unlike anyone else well this is the thing they all loved that guy as they obviously portrayed it that way because he's golden god the golden god like all the people there were like oh my God he's such a good guy we just wanted to kidnap this person and take him away from the caretaker and basically throw him out in the world without any supplies and operate without a consent to kill that's all we wanted to do why didn't he just leave well enough alone what an [ __ ] am I right guys Jo such a dick it's fascinating to me that she's of course pissed at Joel for killing her dad um and will thus kill him and if someone said wow I'm going to kill you Abby for killing Joel my my brother for example with Tommy and then I could just picture of being like do you know why I killed him and then be like do you know why he killed your dad do you I don't we never find out if Abby actually knows why as far as I remember do is there a reference to that I don't think so it was part of my issue is that she never discusses that with Joel and I don't think she discusses it in general like she's a part of this father daughter relationship that's incredibly important and she can't possibly empathize with the idea that a dad doesn't want to sacrifice their daughter for the world fascinating like what if your dad's what if your dad you know didn't want you to get killed like that like what would you do no but but ab's okay with it she says like if Dad if I was the girl I'd be okay with you just killing me without yeah people are saying she knows but like what the circumstances surrounding it well that's what I kind of me like exploring she does know because the the nor in the hospital uh realizes who she is of course before she start yeah but no no no no no no no wait wait people are saying M she said that he she knew that uh uh the girl was going to die and that she would do it in her place that's not what I'm talking about I'm talking about why Joel killed her dad specifically oh like and also does she know that Joel was basically her father does she know that Joel was cast away attacked by them not given any answers left in the dark does you know any of that yeah and and of course it's not even just does she know it was it ever addressed and discussed or was it simply just yeah I knew whatever case I and if she knew and did it anyway you're making it harder on yourself for me to sympathize yeah it's really hard to sympathize with it um but of course they threw in a dog they threw in some stuff hopefully it'll work they threw in everything the kitchen sink no it's dog wow also wait yeah of course there's that moment where she says um you should I'm the one that Joel uh killed your father to say or whatever remember she reveals it to her in the theater so she couldn't have known yeah but it was so but it was so quick and so no no that's what I'm saying is she didn't the important thing is that she knew before she killed Joel as my point like I want her to know why this is the big thing we've all talked about it why the [ __ ] wasn't she curious if you meet the person who you know executed your father in a hospital setting wouldn't you want to be like why did you do it why because it would cause this type of conversation it would cause questions to be asked and cuckman didn't want that cman can't have the plot I Revenge yeah Revenge begets Revenge be get like I know that people might be like well you don't want to complicate it right you don't you just want to kill that person you want to get revenge it's like well no actually I would way prefer to know the why especially because there could be a good reason to kill my dad there could be could could something could have happened yeah I know he's not the best of dudes he's not he's not you know the he's not the zebra saver of of of you know like there's people in the world who are perfect I know that but you know like my if it if if I got a knock on my door and the police said hey we just got there was like a shooting at your your parents house turns out your dad was like a serial killer and he kept kids and like orphans locked up in the basement and he'd eat them and stuff like that and I'm like holy [ __ ] it's like yeah we had to kill him CU he got into a gunfight with us I'd be like oh well [ __ ] like I I'm not upset at you I just have a lot to consider about our relationship like I'm not mad at you okay what do I mean by every trick in the book well the first trick is itself the name of a book save the cat which is a book I have a lot of reservations about because it advocates for writing formulas but is also famous for the save the cat idea which is an early scene in a movie where the main character does something unambiguously good or at least impressive to get the audience on their side so in aby's first flages a zebra pause that is the key point the first thing the player should have seen was Abby being a good person and this is like hours in the [ __ ] game yeah it that's why if it was done in Reverse it wouldn't seem contrived and it wouldn't seem artificial and we could get behind it we wouldn't feel like we were being tricked exactly this is just and and I don't care about the stupid catbook yeah like this this is just right this is I was about to say like in fairness this is like his whole he can't make a video without referencing a book according to this book well according to the lyrics of this song according to the 18th century philosopher figgled forgor um it actually uses post transcendental congenital herpes to create yeah no one cares tell me about the thing tell me Tell let's look at the the thing we're talking about do it see she's not so bad the save the cat type of scene can sometimes be a little cheap but it is extremely cheap cheaper than cheap it's doubly triple Mega cheap like says it can be actually cheap when you've seen a smash a guy's head in with a golf club and Sh No Remorse fruit whatso [ __ ] ever I'm thinking about it and I think I'd probably call it jeap in the reverse order too but I'm not certain cuz I wouldn't like I can't say that for sure well it's so so the obvious question we have to deal with guys are you saying that no one can ever save an animal no no no and and to to something chat um I'm not anti- book it's that I'm anti you like in a video like this is just stuff you put into you throw in this stuff to be look how smart I am that I know about this book you don't use the knowledge from the book that you've gained what you do is in your video you you don't just use the knowledge from the book you've gained you make sure that everybody else knows that you read a book in order to get the knowledge that you're going to use to present right it's like the the intellectual version of virtue signaling well yeah it's you're not just doing the thing think of all the things we've learned from each other right and then if I quoted Any of you every single time I used an analogy or thought process that any of you have enlightened me to every single time you know people wouldn't do that because who cares however if you're dealing with a quote from the great urlan shaon from you know 1970s Germany you'd be like whoa that's what does he look like a big beard he sits in a chair he's got a glass of wine like nice you think urman Shon right now well what I just said was all a quote from him oh and that makes me look smart he's my favorite he's my favorite too and uh yeah I've heard of uh this is this book was referenced in I want to say the closer look looks video apparently it's one of the like first books people tend to read in relation to screenwriting and stuff or writing in general which is not a not a not a hit at it it's just that godamn it just uh use your video to teach um instead of being like this is where I got it from but let's just let's just keep going I guess let's see let's see where he goes with it save the cat all right to get the audience on their side so in aby's first flashback she saves a zebra see she's not so bad the savey cat type of scene can sometimes be a little cheap but it is effective like I just I just want to remind everybody that they live in Washington state United States of America and theyve come across a [ __ ] zebra in the woods to save from a trap just to remind everybody what we're talking about here right and this is what and also in this video do you nothing was gained by him talking about the book that time could have been better explored exploring the concept right which would have been useful because you're trying to defend a game that's really shitty the most contrived [ __ ] Ludo narrative dissonant game I have ever seen in my life this is going to be like one of those Premo examples of how not to do video game stories how not to develop characters and how not to set a sequence of events or how to do so in an attempt to emotionally manipulate the viewer yeah people are not going to let this one go this one's going to stick around and not in the good way the exact opposite reason the first last of us will just want to ask a little question about this last little sentence of his how can like with a scene like this specifically of this kind of type just because of what it's trying to do I don't think it can be cheap and effective I'm glad you brought that up because I was about to as well right so why do you call something cheap like well usually because it achieves what something else achieves but it does it in a way that you didn't have to work in any way hard to do extremely low effort the effectiveness of it doesn't actually change how cheap or Rich it was that's not like so he he says it's cheap but it's effective it's like well yeah we're calling it cheap because they're trying to achieve something that it takes a lot more work to normally do but they're trying to shortcut to it it's not excusable it's [ __ ] embarrassing especially with especially with things like this with such a hard cell you've made with Abby you can't you can't be taking like the cheap way out no seriously she surprising in it why the the designers also give her a relatable and empathetic motivation she loses everything because of Joel not just her father but the idea world all idealism of the fireflies idealism of the fireflies is gone what does that mean no why did no the fireflies were respon uh okay if my parents died I wouldn't lose everything in my world um I I'm not saying it wouldn't be a big hit but and I feel like the fireflies aspect what does she know about all that the fireflies did because they have to try and rcon a bunch of stuff about the first game to try and make you feel sympathetic for the fireflies and make them look like you they're good and they're great and wonderful so I guess that creates confusion as to what she knew and then we as the viewers we have to process this sort of quote unquote New Canon about who they are because it's being reframed in a way that's just contradictory to what we used to know hello you just listen to a segment of the podcast every frame of pause or EAP hosted by YouTubers merer rags and fringy and joined by a cycling variety of guests across the internet they critically analyze media with exhaustive detail while pausing at every single frame subscribe to the EAP Channel and catch new episodes on Saturdays as well as catch their smaller videos reacting to the latest and not so greatest movies and TV shows throughout the week you can also subscribe here to EAP highlights for the latest shorts clips and Super Cuts also uploaded throughout the week links to all the relevant channels can be found in the description section below as well as links to their communities on Reddit and Discord thanks for watching

Channel: EFAP Highlights

Views: 69,899

Keywords: Every Frame A Pause, EFAP, MauLer, MooLer, Rags, Fringy, Podcast, Live, Media, Video Games, Movies, TV, Show, The Last of Us, The Last of Us 2, The Last of Us Part 2, Part 2, Naughty Dog, Neil Druckmann, Sweet Baby Inc, Sony, Abby, Ellie, Joel, Bad, Terrible, Critique, Review, Discussion, Awful, Rant, Horrible, Joel Death, Joel's Death, Ending, Cutscene, Scene, Essay, Video Essay, Just Write, Dunkey, Response, Disrespect, Disrespectful

Id: cZw3jlFMh8c

Length: 66min 3sec (3963 seconds)

Published: Sun Mar 10 2024