Welcome to Ear Biscuits, I am Link. And I am Rhett. This week at the round
table of dim lighting, we are going to be
answering your questions. Lots of good questions. I predict that we're gonna
spend most of our time talking about marriage. We'll get into marriage a lot. And I just wanna get into the first one. How, I mean. That's not even done.
That just feels so abrupt. I mean, that made me feel
anxious and uncomfortable. Oh my goodness, they're
answering the question already. I feel like you gotta just ease in. Like how you doing?
How are you? I mean like. You don't wanna know how I'm doing. I mean, like we're here,
we're at the studio. It feels good to be able
to get out of the house and just come to a place where there's no one I'm related to directly. You know what I'm saying? No one who's in my immediate family. They're all at another place. They're at the house that I was just at. That I shall return to happily . Listen, I hope to be upbeat, and I'm not going into negative
or complaining mode, but- Certainly seems like it. The world, let's. I don't know what to say. I really don't, I mean. And I can tell-
Personally. You didn't know what to say,
that's why you were like, literally, I looked, and
we were 30 seconds in. You were like, let's get
to the first question . Yeah, because like- If that's any indication of
just how you feel right now. I'm overwhelmed, man. I mean, do you wanna
talk about how we feel? The last thing I want
is to start complaining about something associated
with my life at this point. So I'm not going to do that. I'm not asking you to. For longer than a few seconds. I'm just, everything that's
happening in the world and everything, between
what my personal life and what's happening publicly, I mean there's just a lot going on. Listen, all you have to do,
here's all you have to do. It's so overwhelming. All you have to do when
somebody looks at you and says, what's wrong? You just say, 2020. Everybody gets it man. Just say, 2020. But I don't even wanna say, it's not that everything's wrong. There's a lot that's
right that's happening. That's true. It's positive and overwhelming. Yeah. And it's constant. And it should be. Again, I'm not complaining that, that every morning there's something, there's a new detail to
grapple with in the news and figure out how I personally
am gonna respond to that. And then if we start to talk about how we as companies or
as leaders of a company are gonna respond. Again, I am not complaining. I am just acknowledging the fact that it is so complicated and
overwhelming and necessary. I'm not wishing for
these issues to go away. I'm wishing for Coronavirus to go away. Well, yeah, that's kind
of what I was getting at when I was talking about
getting out of the house. I was like, I think that there's this the thing that we've been
talking about is boy, it would be one thing for humanity to be, like humanity addressing one major issue is difficult enough for
humanity to do that. When you throw multiple
issues at humanity, which is what 2020 has decided to do. So let's really dig in on
systemic racism in America and yes, that's the right thing to do. And I'm not trying to
escape from that constantly. I'm trying to find ways and we are constantly talking about ways that we can properly be engaged. You just made it sound like that's what we were about to dig into. Just to clarify, that's
not what we're gonna do. No, it wasn't. We gonna be answering your questions. But no matter what you put out, there's an elephant in the room that matters more than other things that matters the most right
now, black lives matter more than what we're gonna
talk about on the show today. Even to the point where making a decision, to talk about anything that's
like lighthearted or funny. It feels weird. It just feels weird. It feels weird. I mean, it's like, everybody's got stuff they're
going through personally too. And everybody's got their own
shit they're dealing with. And then, you're right, 2020 is a doozy. But I don't wanna come across
as complaining about it because it's such an important
movement and now is the time and we all need to make sure
we're taking care of ourselves and we're having space. But when we come to these microphones and then it's just like,
it's tough to know, especially when it's like, do you feel like everything
can be scrutinized or criticized when you say
something into a microphone? Yeah, well, I think that's the temptation, especially for white people
who have the privilege to just check out of the
conversation, if they want to, if they conclude that they don't have, there's nothing personal at stake, they can be like, can we just move? Can we just talk about something else? And I think your point is, it's like, no, we're not moving on and we're not moving on until
real change has taken place. That's my wreck again, today,
which when we get to it will be directly related to this stuff. And if you feel that as a white person, you feel that fatigue setting in, that like, Oh, I gotta think about this. And I was just trying to
figure out how to argue with my uncle about Coronavirus. And now I got to argue with him about the, it's like, yeah, unfortunately, unfortunately or fortunately
for better or for worse. And I do think for better
as what you were getting at is like, we got to keep talking about it because it's just not some thing where there was this movement
and everybody got excited and put stuff on Instagram
and then all of a sudden it's like, okay, we good now? No, no, we're not good, that's the point. We're not good. It isn't good. But how do we transition
to having this Ear Biscuit be about something else for a second? And I just say, I don't want
to defend that decision. I just wanna have a conversation. Well, I think the question itself will demonstrate the
awkwardness of the transition. So without further ado, why don't you just ask the first question? See, we could already
been halfway through this. I think that was good. I'm glad that we didn't. Now ask this question. Praise Sharp, by the way,
shout out to Praise Sharp. She was the solver of the riddles that in the mythical society that led to, uncovering the fact that we
were doing a live broadcast of a screening of me watching,
"Ferris Bueller's Day Off" for the first time ever. And all the clues were wrapped up in that stereoscopic viewer, which featured movies from
the eighties I'd never seen. But wasn't there like a- There were a number of steps and she. There was one still frame on GMM, right? Yeah, there was a clue on GMM that tied back to the stereoscopic viewer and there were a number of layers and we could watch it
happen in the discord when it was being solved. That's the kind of stuff that's happening in the mythical society. Way to go Praise, you figured it out. Solving mysteries. Your question, how old were you when you had your first celebrity crush? Who was it? #earbiscuits. I didn't have like an
immediate answer to this. I really had to think about it. The first person I thought
about was Daisy Duke, from "The Dukes of Hazard." Okay, well. She's a controversial choice. Well, as a kid, I watched that show and she wore what became
to be known as Daisy Dukes. But all I remember feeling
was just weird and tingling and I didn't really understand
or wanna come to grips with anything that was happening
and that was not a plan come to grips with what was happening. How old are you talking about? I mean, that's pretty young, right? I don't know what years, but I think my first real crush
that I remember is, Vicki, the robot featured in the
television show, "Small wonder". The girl who played the lead? Yeah, the robot. The robot. Did you watch the show? I mean, it started in 1985
and went to like 1999. I didn't watch it religiously. Oh, I watched it as a religion. I worshiped her as a celebrity
crush 'cause she was a robot. No I don't know, I was like, oh, she's cute. And she's kind of
robotic, it's kinda cool. I remember being embarrassed
that someone would find out that I had a crush on a robot girl. I read a little bit about the story. You understood that she was an actor? Well, yeah, I knew it
was an actress, but like. So it wouldn't have been weird to have a crush on the
actor who was playing her. I had a crush on the robot. I had a crush on the character. I liked how she acted like. You wanted a robot girlfriend? Yeah. Which that is not a good thing. No, it's not. If you have a robot girlfriend or if you've got one of those real dolls, I'm not saying that that's wrong, but what I'm getting at
is if you wanted a woman that you could program
and control that that's a- Problem. In place of an actual woman
that could get problematic that could reveal some bad
tendencies about yourself, which was the point of
that robot girlfriend song. It was a guy who wanted to turn her on and turn her off when he wanted to. I just thought she was cute, man. I thought it was cute how she- There is definitely more
going on in that though. Now that you've talked about it. Okay, there's something in there. So her dad was like a technological
advanced electronics guy Like he made her and then
he made her as a robot and then didn't tell anybody. So as a family, they had
a flesh and blood son, they had Vicki, the robotic daughter. Her name was Vicki, I
couldn't have told you that. It stood for something V-I-C-C-I. Virtual, no. Very ingenuity cute. Ventriloquism. But they kept it a secret
that she wasn't a human. Hence the whole point of the show, right? There's a lot of tension there. I don't remember, the first crushes that
I remember were just girls that I went to school with. And I remember like being in first grade and having crushes on girls. You pick tall girls, which makes sense. But then when you started dating, you started dating short girls. Right, yeah. And you never dated a tall girl? Well, there was that one girl in college that was kind of tall
that you wanted to date. Yeah, but she didn't date me. No, she didn't wanna date you. I didn't mean to bring it up but, did she tell you, I don't wanna date you? No, I never told her that
I wanted to date her. I thought you wrote her
a letter or something. I thought you made a play. I like you, check yes or no. Definitely would not have
done that specifically. No, it never became a thing. It never became a thing. She was as close as you
got to date a tall girl. Right, but I mean, in first
grade having a crush on Lisa who was in second grade, who was, boy, she was so tall. And I just think that was coincidence. Really, she was the only tall girl that I had a crush on growing up. We name another. Well, I'm trying not to name
names anymore because of. Well, you have a tendency to
name first and last names. You don't have to name. The girl who you would
always have dreams about flying to her house. She wasn't tall. She was tall. No, she wasn't. She's taller, she wasn't short. Five four, maybe. No, she's taller than that. Five five max, 100%, sure. I remember her being tall.
Five four. Maybe I just watched her in your dream. Your memory is flawed. But what I'm saying is
that celebrity crushes, I remember, and I had to look her name up because as soon as I read this
question, celebrity crush, there was a model that I
remember really, really liking in the eighties as I was
sort of becoming myself. And 'cause I guess in
1987, I'm 10 years old. And like I said, I was already
liking girls before that, but the closer and
closer I got to like 12, the stronger and stronger these urges got, Christy Turlington. She's still around. Well, yeah, she's not dead. Wait, is that what you mean? I think she might still model. Well, yeah, I mean, I'm sure
she does in some capacity. I remember Christy Turlington. But she's like one of those classic supermodels of the eighties that like alongside Cindy
Crawford, et cetera. But I just remember her as
a boy and just thinking, wow, she's very pretty. I mean, I thought those things too, it didn't transfer into a
crush because I would never, I could never date a supermodel. I feel like to me that was a disconnect. I would stop at the magazine
section at the grocery store 'cause she was on a bunch of covers. I would go to that section
where there was beautiful women on the covers of magazines. I'm not talking about the porn section because that's not in the grocery store and I'm not talking about like Juggs, I'm talking about like Vogue. We already knew that. Beautiful woman on the cover. And I would just stare. You wouldn't pull the magazine
down and thumb through it. Well, 'cause I think it's
important to understand that, and this is the case in most places, but like you didn't
walk around Buies Creek and find a woman that looked like that. We weren't in Los Angeles or whatever, this was like, it was this
something that you're like, does this really exist? And of course, now we
know, technically, no, it doesn't exist because
it's been manipulated. This lighting is perfect. She's got on his makeup
and exactly the right way. I'm trying to figure it out,
I think I know the answer. What's more problematic. You been enamored by this airbrushed woman or me being enamored by a robotic girl. Well, I think what I'm
discovering right now is that, and I think it's one of the reasons that, and this is not the point
that I was trying to make and I'm not trying to make a woke point. That's not my intention, but I do think it's interesting
that just as this young boy walking through the grocery store, while your mom's picking
out Vienna sausages, you're sitting there with
your little bike and sausage in the magazine section,
staring at these manufactured, beautiful women like Christy Turlington. And just thinking that this is, I remember thinking things
like, this is why I exist. It's like, I just remember
thinking that like, this is what I'm here for. Yeah.
To find that. And that is just not a
good thing to be thinking. To think that this some manipulated. Sorry, I couldn't hear what you said. Why is your watch talking? Your watch is trying to
give you some advice here. Wow, why would Siri, were you asking me if I was asking her, I said
something that sounds like Siri, but now I'm gonna put her to sleep. Sorry, this is like
putting Vicki to sleep. They did that. I just said Vicki do not disturb me. And so she will never us
again until I turn it back on. I don't know what my point was. My point was is that it
probably wasn't a healthy thing. But I specifically remember
when I saw her on TV. 'Cause she was in a bunch of commercials, she was in a bunch of ads. I mean, and I didn't know her name. I had to look her name up, I didn't know her name at the time. It's like that girl. That's what I'm about. You were, I wouldn't call it an obsession, but I mean, we interacted with
the female form differently. Expand, please. I'm just saying, I didn't gawk at the magazines. I was too embarrassed to do that. I was embarrassed that I liked Vicki. I didn't want anyone to know. And not to get graphic,
I'm just being honest here. In other words, when you as
a young boy looked at Vicki, you didn't think, boy, I wonder
what that robot looks like under her clothes, right? And I'm being honest with you. That's the kind of thing
that I was thinking when I saw the ad, I was like,
okay, what else is there? That's how I'm wired. Yeah, it's interesting that I had shame in just having a crush on Vicki. I wouldn't have wanted anyone to know and I would have denied it. I didn't tell you the girls
that I had a crush on. Not until like probably middle school at that point, I was pretty open about it. The girls in school that I had a crush on. I didn't want anyone to know
that and I remember when. Including them. Yeah. And even in a like middle school, when people started pairing up and like, oh, she's my
girlfriend, we're going together. Like, I was really nervous
that when I got a girlfriend, like my family was gonna find
out, it's such a weird thing. I remember just being so
nervous that they would be like, you've got a girlfriend, what's her name? You weren't scared of them finding out you were scared of
having to talk about it. It was like revealing a part of myself. I felt like they would
know something about me that I didn't want them to know that I had a girlfriend
that I liked a girl that I wanted to hold a
girl's hand or kiss a girl. I didn't wanna talk to my parents. But I was embarrassed
that they would know. Hey do you a girlfriend? I think that that is normal. I think that the idea,
every time I wanna talk to either one of my boys about
girls immediate embarrassment. So I think that that's totally normal. I think it would be a little bit odd if they weren't somewhat
embarrassed about it. I remember being at a baseball game and it was when I was dating Amber and we were watching the baseball game. You were one of the players and your mom was there. You were one of the players. You say that like it's an accomplishment. They cut no one from the team. I didn't apply for the
team, I didn't care for it. 'Cause you misunderstood,
it wasn't an application. It was just showing up. You're where's the application,
I can't be on this team. I had learned enough about
baseball to know that I needed to be in the stands, holding hands with girlfriend. I'm sure Amber held my hand,
I didn't hold her hand. You're talking about
middle school baseball? Yeah, when I dated Amber. Okay, seventh grade. And your mom was sitting
there in the bleachers and I'm sitting there and
Amber is holding my hand and I just felt so
embarrassed that your mom was gonna see me holding
hands with my girlfriend. I get that. Yeah, that hands says no more. I think that, and I know that sometimes you feel like you need to check how . How weird I was? How weird you are. Because you have said
some things that are like, okay, yeah, that's different. That's unusual but that's not. I never looked at girls
on a magazine cover and thought, man, I just
wanna keep thinking about her. I just felt like that's a woman. Yeah, exactly. And that's not a boy, that's a woman. That's right, that's what I was thinking. That is a woman, that's
what I was thinking. I was like, why doesn't she
look like on Buies Creek. I'm just gonna stay away from the hole that you're digging for yourself. All I've done is been I've
been honest about the fact that as far back as I can remember, when I saw a beautiful woman,
I was very attracted to them. You know what might make this better? Asking another question, which
we'll answer after the break. Beepboop2488 says let's talk marriage. Will this move things
over, if we talk about our longstanding love
affair with our wives. My wife is not threatened
by the things that I thought as a eight year old in the grocery store. I didn't know her at the time. I'm not talking about our wives listening. I'm talking about everyone else listening, how like our interactions with
females can be appropriate and mutually edifying. And it not be based on some
farce or your own needs or mine of a robot. Just to clarify though, we've talked about a woman on a television show
and a woman in a magazine. I'm very skiddish. Those are not interactions. I know. When you talk about
women in a magazine now, in like self image and the
female form and stuff like that, I'm starting to get nervous. I understand. Let's talk marriage! I've been with my husband since I was 19. And she doesn't say how old
she is, she could be 20, but let's assume it's a longer than that. Let's talk about how crazy
it is to grow up together, become adults together,
become parents together, keep the spark alive and not
kill each other in the process. Yes lets talk about that.
That is the goal. But first, we're going to, what are we doing today? We just wanna urge you
to go to mythical.com and just scroll around,
just scroll around. You'll find stuff that you
didn't know we were selling. That happens to me when I go there. And I'm like, yeah, that's great. Rep mythical, rep you boys, there's something about Merck that, you can feel connected to us. We crafted something, we mailed it to you. You're wearing it or you're
using it, you're spraying it. Or you putting it through
your hair or on your lips. And it's a connection, connect to us, by buying our stuff. That's an interesting perspective. I mean, I don't disagree with it, but I was just gonna say, is cool clothes. You watch the show, but then it's like, you can wear the ethos. That's also true, I
like that, mythical.com. Again, the question is talking
about growing up together when you got married
young, I mean at 19, right? So my wife had just turned, I don't wanna get this wrong,
I think she just turned 20. Don't look at me. She had turned 20 in December, 1999. And then we got married in June, 2001. I guess I was 23 at the time. Well I was 21, I turned
22 on our honeymoon. 'Cause I'm like half a year older than you and got married a year after you. So there was like yeah. And we've been, Christy and
I, I've been married 20 years. And you've been married 19 years. I've been married as long as this woman lived before she got married. And I think maybe she has to 'cause that's kind of
wrapped up in a question she'd been through a lot. Well this made me think
about, we did talk about this a little bit in the last year's podcast, just the idea of growing up together. The thing about getting married young is you haven't become the
adult that you're going to be. And they're still, at 19,
at 20, early twenties, there's still a lot of change. I mean, there's a lot of change
at any point in your life, but especially at that time,
like you haven't lived alone. Like you haven't been an
adult with responsibilities. And all of a sudden you're two
adults with responsibilities figuring life out together. A lot of people get married
at that age get divorced because once they kind of
figure out who they are, they're like, Oh, this is not gonna work. But a lot of people, if
you're blessed as we have been to kind of be able to grow
up together and as you learn, and as you grow, it
enhances the connection. That which is I think what has happened. But the thing that this made me think of is something that Jessie
and I have started doing. Which is, I don't remember why we started, I know that she had been watching the first season or the last season, I don't know how many
season they have been, of this ""Married at First Sight"." I have not heard of this. Is it a reality competition show? It's not a competition. I don't know if it's a Netflix original or if it's just on Netflix
now, we watch it on Netflix and we just started
whatever the latest season, season two, I don't know. So at first I was just like, me and her liked to watch
Trashy, we'd like to watch Trashy Reality TV
together and laugh at it. Like we watched the Bachelor together, we even watched that bachelor. The one where they did
was basically music. It was American idol Mitch Bachelor, and they put the couples together and they had to sing together. And then have people come and judge it. And it's just like, it was a cringe-fest. But we like to watch things that are bad because it entertains us. Makes you feel better about
not being that cringy. Not being on that show. But this show, which I
just assumed was gonna be another one of these shows,
the premise of the show is they go to a city. So this season they're in
Charlotte, North Carolina, and all these single people apply. And all these single people
are like, I wanna get married, I'm ready to get married. And there's a team of experts
who are the hosts of the show. And they go through all
these people, interview them, I don't know all the process. They narrow it down to these four couples that they have out of- So they paired people together. And is this over the course of the season or is this at episode one? Episode one is the selection
of the four couples. Now let me explain to you, this is how it works
and this is episode two. By the way, is called naked and afraid? 'Cause that's how I would
describe my honeymoon. Just kidding. You can watch that after, episode two is the wedding. Of the four couples. And this is on their wedding day, is the first time they've
ever seen each other. Oh my gosh. Like when the bride walks down the aisle, that is the first time that
the groom is seeing her. I mean, my knee jerk reaction
is that doesn't sound like they have a very
high opinion of marriage. It's just like, yeah,
let's give this a shot. That is what I thought going in. And that may still be true. It's just like, oh, this'll be fun. We can always just get divorced, that's a great way to start a marriage. Now hold on, before you judge it, you're judging it hard right now. I'm saying, this is the
assumptions that I'm bringing to. And that's what makes it so entertaining. Now, the way that the show
works is, and this is, if you have a certain view of marriage, you would think that this is wrong and maybe you fall into this category. And I would probably have
fallen into this category before I started watching it, I think differently about it now. This show has changed, what
you think about marriage. Yeah, I'm gonna explain that. So the way that it works is
they're married for eight weeks. And at the end of eight weeks, you decide if you're gonna
stay married to get divorced, that's the season of television. And so I don't know what
episode we're on right now, but like the second episode
and the third episode. So cameras are following them. Last night we watched the
beginning of the honeymoon. And so there's these questions like, are we gonna have sex on the first night? We literally met this
afternoon at our wedding. Are we gonna have sex? And then, I'm not gonna spoil
anything, but there's like, who's gonna have sex,
who's not gonna have sex? And it sounds like I'm
talking about a trashy show. I would be so afraid to
forget my wife's name. Oh, that's what happens when
they walk down the aisle, they introduced themselves. It's like, I'm Natalie. It's still sound pretty gross man. You know when they find
out their last name? And again, at least this at this season, where they're in Charlotte,
it's very traditional. It's like four couples,
heterosexual couples, men, and women. And then all the women are
taking the husband's last name. So the way that they're like, we now introduce to you,
Mr. and Mrs. Johnson and the woman's like Johnson,
she's like responding. It's great television. Let me just say, it's great
television because of that, 'cause you put yourself
in this and you're like, what would it be like. Okay, I just thought this was
gonna be Trashy Reality TV, that I was just gonna be
laughing at the whole time. The reason my wife likes
to watch it with me is I weep when I watch the show. Why do you weep? And I don't mean like,
she'll look over at me and like, I've got like tears in my eyes, like multiple times
while watching this show. You got tears in your eyes. Well, I got tears, 'cause
I'm laughing right now. I got tears in my eyes. I was making you cry. I don't know. But I've been trying to
figure out what's going on. And Jessie, we've been talking about this and I think there's a number of things. First thing is it's like- This one was going on in your heart? Well like why am I responding
to the show in this way? And so one thing is, is that it is hit me, that these marriages, which
are arranged by someone else are very similar to my marriage. And let me explain what I mean by that. Meaning that when you're young, you don't know what the hell you want. I mean, you don't know
what the hell you want when you're old either, but
especially when you're young and you're figuring out who you are. Think about how differently I think about literally everything
than I did when I was 23. 20 years have gone by, I
changed in many different ways, ways that we've talked about on the show, still married to the same
woman who has also changed in similar and different ways. And there's this idea that, Oh, well you gotta be exactly
sure about this person. You gotta know everything
there is to know about them. You should probably live with
them before you get married, because you need to know what
kind of habits they have. This show calls that into question. And calls into question that
it's really about someone who is the individuals
that make up the marriage are ready for the
commitment that marriage is. They are prepared to be like,
I know you're not perfect. I mean, first of all, one of the things we've
been talking about is the process of having experts,
select your spouse for you is probably at least as reliable as the process of you selecting
your spouse for yourself. Let me just say that, that's a premise. That's a working theory that I have. And I'm not talking about, we should go back to arrange marriages. I'm just saying that if you
wanted to submit yourself to this process, you like to
think that no, no, no, no, no. I would be better at making this decision because I'm rational I wanna make sure I'm in love with somebody,
whatever your reasons would be. I submit that, that initial spark that makes
you fall in love with somebody while it is important, it isn't the thing that, and
we talked about this before, but there isn't the thing that
maintains a 20 year marriage. So yeah, let's talk more about
the commitment component. But I do think that when I was, trying to figure out if I
was gonna propose to Christy, if we were meant to be together. I was doing lots of math, I
was doing lots of analysis. And even when we got engaged, like we went to premarital counseling, which I highly recommend
because it can raise flags that could lead to like, you
know what, let's turn back now. Let's make as an informed
decision as we can about the commitment we wanna make. I feel like some of what these experts that you're describing did we try to, Christy and I tried to do in
our premarital counseling, like we went through this
book and it was a workbook. Maybe you went through the same word, but can't remember what it was called. Like a Tom Nelson. No, but it was in an, Oh you mean like a Tom
Nelson evangelical publisher. It was like preparing for
marriage or something like that. Yeah, I think it was from
a Christian world view. But it was very practical. Like it guided us to
talk about things like. Sex. Yeah, like our expectations for sex. But then smaller things like habits, like things that matter to you, small things that are a big deal to you. Things that can be annoyances,
like how you deal with money. And then putting a plan in points. They could be points of conflict. Points of conflict, you
put a plan in place. It's like, okay, we hear
each other and we agree. And we're planning our future,
but we're also analyzing, like, there is a chance
and it felt very slim that our counselor who was
walking us through this would be like, you know what. You not right for each other. Pull the plug, you're
not right for each other. I'm sure some counselors do that ones that were really bold. I still think that seems
like a really great idea. This television show? Not the television show. 'Cause it is a great idea
for a television show. Premarital certification, I
won't even say counseling. Like some sort of third
party certification. I mean, as my kids get
older and they're like, as they start finding
partners, I'll be like, can you agree to a third
party certification? I'm making this up right
now because I don't want to- Maybe you should just go
on this television show. Okay, yeah, they could just go on there. Okay, I agree, I get what you're saying. I agree with all of it. I'm interested in the
commitment component, but like tell me what you're learning. Well, to add to your
thought, finish your thought. You finish my thought. To add to your thought. Finish him. I think that, and again, I don't there experts, how qualified
are they, I don't know. They got PhDs and shit. But how does that certification process that they are putting these
people through compared to the sort of the very small
focus group of the two of you and a counselor, how does it compare? And I'm saying that my
suspicion early on now, now first of all, one
of the things is like, who's gonna stay together, like that's one of the fun
things about watching it. And Jessie and I were
like, Oh, this couple, I think they're gonna be okay. Like we say things like, I
think they're gonna be okay. And then this couple it's like, Ooh, like he's really
organized and she's not. And so you would be like, why
did they put them together? And sometimes it is a huge problem, and sometimes it's not, it really depends. And maybe the reason why
they put them together is cause the producers
overrode the expert. That's the thing that I
talked to Jessie about. I was like, what do you
think, don't you agree that 'cause I get into the
production side of it, I was like, don't you think
that they made the people on this television show
signed something that said that they understood that
one of the criteria for them. Casting. Coupling people together is
an entertainment quality. Sure it's in the fine print or something. Yes, you will be matched
according to your compatibility, but you will also be matched according to entertainment value. And they probably didn't
say, they probably just said with the prerogative of
the executive producers. So it's probably covered, I'm sure they've got that covered on Netflix or whoever makes the show. Now all that being said, I think the reason that I get
teary eyed and first of all, there's like one couple,
they elicit nothing. I have no sympathy for them. I don't really like either of them. They sound like, they're
meant for each other. I think they have the smallest
chance of staying together, but these other three couples it's like when like the bride walk down the aisle and like the husband saw her, it was like, I found myself in this, I do
this at weddings in general, I get kind of teary-eyed at weddings. But I found myself, in the
first time it happened, I was like, what the hell is
happening to me right now? Why am I responding in this way? And I think that it has a
lot to do with thinking about those moments in my marriage
and the way that like Jessie and I did not
know what we were doing this same sort of like deer headlights, what have I gotten myself into? Am I ready for this? That is so sensationalized
and exaggerated in this show is something that I felt about
that whole period of my life when we got married because of the culture that we were in. One of the reasons we got
married when we got married is because at the time we
were abiding by a worldview that said that premarital sex
wasn't part of God's plan. It's like, you wanna have sex, you got to be in a committed marriage, specifically, not just a
relationship, but a marriage. And that had a deep impact on our decision making abilities. Exactly, again, I'm saying all this, because you may look at
this show like you did. And like I did before I watched it and said, this is ridiculous. Why would anybody make a
decision to get married based on some experts
on a television show? And then you start
thinking about the reasons that you get married. And I say, none of this to say that I was madly in love
with my wife, still am, was drawn to her, we were compatible. We couldn't stay away from each other. We couldn't imagine not
having a life together. All those things were in place, but so much of that was just influenced by the nature of who we were at the time. Could these cultural
pressures and expectations in our worldview, right. But that got us into it. But none of that stuff keeps you in it, that kinda throws you over the threshold, but it doesn't keep you in the room. But yeah, they got married in episode one. And by episode eight, they're deciding if they're
gonna stay together. But really that means is like, we're gonna pretend to be
married for eight weeks. No, legally binding. I know, but they've kind
of thrown out the window. They're let's play marriage. Let's be married in an experiment for television for eight weeks. And then we'll decide if
we really wanna be married. But to tie it in with our story. One of the girls on the show, one of the women she's 27 years old, is a virgin who has saved
herself for marriage. Okay. So that feels like there's more at stake, because she's gonna give up her virginity, which is very important to her,
according to her worldview, and then not stay with this
guy because after eight weeks, it seems like maybe it's gonna
be a little bit difficult. I think that is the question. The fact that she said, okay, again, I'm not making a statement, I'm not promoting the
purity culture thing. I'm just saying that the fact that she has saved herself for marriage increases the chances that their marriage will go beyond the eight weeks, because she's given up more. Did she wait to have sex until, has she waited so far? They have not consummated yet. Yeah, okay, that makes sense. At the point that I'm in. That supports my assertion that- They will though. You think that she's gonna
hold out for eight weeks. I guarantee you she's gonna do it. She's already basically said
that she's going to do it. Oh yeah. Because once she realized that she wants to have sex with him, she's already married to him. And according to her worldview- That's not typically how it happens. She got the okay as soon
as she got married to him. But if she subscribes to that worldview, she's probably also
subscribed to the worldview that she can't get divorced
unless there's infidelity. So unless he cheats on her
in the next eight weeks on this television show, which is probably not gonna happen because there's cameras
on him the whole time, she's gonna be married to
this guy for a long time. And a lot of times that
doesn't work out well, I'm just saying, I'm not
judging it good or bad. I'm just saying that that
decision makes it more likely for her to stick around in
the marriage room for longer. Regardless of the situation. But how many of these contestants- Don't say contestants man. Are acting- Couples, married couples. What are they saying about commitment? Things that make me cry. Really, so instead they're like, they're not like just
tiptoeing around like, Hey, this is an experiment. They're not acting the
way that I'm saying, they're acting like our lives
depend on this relationship. The reason that I like it is because the people on the show, the reason I feel about it differently, like when I watched the "Bachelor" or the "Bachelorette" or
"The Bachelor in Paradise", which is the trashiest trash. I've never watched any of these. Me and Jessie even watched that- I'm watching "Small Wonder" reruns. We watched that, "Too Hot to
Handle" that I tweeted about, the whole point of the
show was to be trash. When we watched those shows, I just judge the people,
the contestants constantly. And I'm just like, how
stupid do you have to be to go on this show? And like, these people don't
understand anything about life. These people on "Married
at First Sight" like it's a different kind of person. Like they are taking it very seriously. It isn't like, in other words, when you watch, "The
Bachelor" you're like, how many of these women,
you watch "The Bachelor" how many of these men are
on this show for clout? So they can become reality TV stars you don't get that vibe at
all from these it's like, I did this because I wanna be married because I see myself as a married person. And I haven't had any luck in that in my own life, trying it my way. So now why don't I let
these experts do it for me? Its not that I don't believe in. I don't know what I think
about arranged marriages, but I do think I have this belief, which I haven't thought
about, or like asserted. I'm just gonna vomit this out and see if I can make sense of it like everything else I say. I believe that arranged
marriages could work just as well as unarranged marriages. Now I don't want to get into
like, who's arranging it? I'm not weighing in on that. But if you put two people to together, if you submit to a process
and you're on board for that. And it's by your volition. Both people are equally committed. 'Cause a lot of times arranged marriage and marriage in general can be kind of tied into just
patriarchal thinking. But we're talking about
in the perfect world, both people are yeah. We wanna be married,
just like in that show, I have thought in general
it could probably work. I think it's part of my, I guess my experience kind of
impacts my opinion in that, like Christy and I were
talking the other day about this a couple, and I know
nothing about her, she was like, so and so has announced
they're getting a divorce. It's like their
motivational speaking couple that they talk about relational dynamics. And after like almost
20 years of marriage, they've decided to just be friends. And I'm like, listen, I don't
know anything about this, if you divorce after that long, and you just wanna be friends it's like when you add the detail that they have a public persona of
giving marriage advice. And then that makes sense that I'm just saying there's an ulterior motive to maintain a friendship,
to prove that like, my voice is still valid when
it comes to relationships. But that's a hard thing
to believe that like you've been married 20 years
and you just get divorced and you were still best friends and we are raising our kids together, it's like, that's freaking
complicated, I'm just suspicious. But I know nothing
besides what I just said. I know nothing except the
thing my wife said to me, offhanded I've got no
fucking clues about that. But I told Christy tacked
on to that conversation, I was like, we've been
through so much together and I can understand being
married for 20 years. And I mean, we've changed so
much that we could have changed in ways that were so
different and divergent that we would get a
divorce, but I'm so grateful that we haven't changed
in exactly the same ways and we haven't changed that
exactly the same times, but we've gone through
so much of it together that we're still very much in it together. And where we're like,
we're on the same page. The book is a big book. I mean, the page, it's not
like teetering on a pinhead that you're trying to like, just to stay on the same page. You don't have to believe the
same thing about everything. You don't have to have the same instincts. You don't have to be the
same person to make it last 'cause Christy and I
are not the same person, but we've changed in this, it's in like a dance,
there's a give and take. And there's a listening
and there's a sharing it's undergirded by this
commitment, I guess that we are in this together, we are together. We are gonna go through this together and it's gonna when it's really hard, at times it's really hard. But if you come through it, if you come through each of
those things that makes it, you can go into the next one
with that much more confidence. The next marriage? The next trial. If you can figure out first
marriage, what you did wrong, go to the second one. A lot of people do say that, I'll do that my second marriage I wanna stay here, I know we're
staying with this question, but I wanna stay here. 'Cause one of the things, I don't remember the name of the study. I don't know where this was,
Jessie told me about it. But there was some relationship
expert slash psychologist who said that they could look at, they basically set couples down and had them communicate
with each other on video. And this person could watch
like 20 seconds of the video. I feel like I could do that too. And decide if they're gonna stay together? And make a very accurate
prediction as to whether or not they would be together
five years from now. I'm not getting the numbers exactly. But it was like an unbelievably
short amount of time of seeing them together could
make a very predictable, a very reliable prediction about how long they were
gonna stay together. What would you look for? 'Cause I feel like I could do that. Well, here's the thing. I know what I would look for. That's one of the things you're doing as you watch the show. I firmly believe that while you could get into some really like
analytical, it's a vibe. Hold on, I wanna say this is important because there are things like me and Jessie have talked about
this lately we've been like, you know how sometimes like, you know someone and
you get a vibe from them and you can be like, I think
this person is duplicitous. Or I think that this person, there's something off about
this person in their character. And you can kind of sense
it but then you're like, that feels judgemental, I'm
not basing that on anything other than just a
conversation I had with them. And me and you have noticed this and there's been a
couple of times when like we've met with someone in
like a business capacity and then we'll come out of
a meeting and we'll be like, I don't get a good vibe from that guy. And it might be that, but what I have learned is that whatever is happening
when I say that to myself is more reliable than the
two hour conversation. That me and you might have afterwards trying to rationalize our way into thinking whether or not
somebody is worth working with. And that's what I think this
psychologist is picking up on is that the human capacity
for processing things in a way that you cannot even articulate is way under appreciated by most people. In other words, the vibe
that you get from someone is very often reliable. That doesn't mean you're
gonna be wrong sometimes, but I'm just saying that I think that we talked about this, 'cause there's this the one
couple that we don't think, the look on his face
when she says something, the look on her face, the physical, just the way that they
seem to be connecting. And then there's another
couple that is immediately, you're like they got it, they're gonna be together a long time, I can see the way they interact. To me, it comes down to, and I don't know how long it takes, it varies from person to person. But if you can tell if somebody is like a genuine good person, but if I was trying to be
specific about my analysis, to me, something that would
be a telltale sign was like being able to quantify humility. If I'm listening to it on
a conversation and it's, you could tell that they don't seem like they're certain that they've
got it all figured out or they're the type of person
that can say, they're sorry, you gotta be willing to be humble and admit your mistakes to
stay in vibrant relationship. And I think when you've been
married, as long as we have, we really know our partners. Like I know Christy, I was
gonna say inside and out, but then that would have been weird. Right, well, but sort of true. It's totally true, but I
didn't mean it in that way. Get your mind off the magazines. You dirty minded a little boy. I am just here, I didn't say anything. I mean, we know each
other, we know everything, we feel like we can predict
what the other person would say or think or interact and what, like we know what the other
person is capable of as friends. People think our friendship is so extraordinary for that reason, but I feel like that's really
a requirement for marriage for long lasting marriage
is like, people are like, and I guess that's why people
say that about our friendship is like, because it's not a marriage and people don't invest
that much in friendship, but I think you have to
have that in a marriage, but it's such a high
standard to really know. But what I'm seeing in these
couples is like, literally, okay, they just got married. But they're not, I mean-
Hold on. They just got married and then, after they get married,
the camera follows them as they walk back through everybody, we present to you, Mr. and Mrs. Johnson, they walk through everybody and
then they go to this little, they all get married at the same place someplace in Charlotte. And then they have their first date. No, they're just sitting
there talking to each other and there's like a bottle of champagne. Like they do all the
couples have to do it. And it's just like, I looked at the way that these two people
interacted with each other and the first moments of ever meeting. And I feel like I can
make a reliable prediction and that's not what the
psychologist was doing. So I don't think, I agree with
everything that you're saying that the key to like a continuing marriage is this learning about each
other is communicating, but I'm talking about compatibility that gives you the right runway to be able to establish those things
that you're talking about. I feel like it's something
that you can just sense in a sixth sense kind of way. Now there are some people,
and this is the case- I think is unfair to put it
on the first time you meet, especially on television,
after you've gotten married, Because there's plenty of it. I'm just saying, I'm not
saying it's 100% right. I'm just saying that there is this, you can sense compatibility
pretty quickly, but there's lots of people
who get married young did not realize that they weren't. I mean, just because you're
the two people eligible people who get married in your
small town in the same year doesn't mean that you're
compatible, right? It's statistics, you just weren't in the right
place at the right time. Then you start trying to figure out are you actually compatible? And a lot of this, that's
where your commitment kind of goes into,
you've got compatibility and you've got commitment. And compatibility on its own cannot keep a marriage together forever. Commitment on its own can, there are people who hate each other, but because they don't believe in divorce, they're just gonna be together forever. I think that the beautiful
marriages are the ones. And once there is a compatibility and that compatibility can grow because you change over time, that's coupled with a commitment that then there are these
beautiful moments of like, we actually love each other, have a great time with each other, but that's not always gonna
happen because I'm a human, you're a human, I'm gonna be an asshole, you're gonna be an asshole. And in those moments to get
through the asshole moments. You got to stay committed. That's when you gotta have
that commitment in place. And the only thing I'm
saying is how crazy it was to look at these couples and make a decision about compatibility. I would add it as a commitment
to a couple of things. It's not just a commitment
to staying together. I think it's a commitment to being, it's the reason why there are vows. It's like you commit to the certain things that you're gonna do. You serve and love the other person place their needs before your needs in sickness and in health. Like that sickness thing,
that can get real tough. And that's a huge commitment
and it's a blind commitment and for most people who haven't care for someone who's really been sick. So I think it's a
commitment to those things that you're promising that
you're gonna make it work. I'm committed to dancing with you. Sometimes the music is gonna suck. Sometimes our legs are gonna be broken, but we're committed to
dancing together through life. And that's something that it requires constant
cooperation and fidelity. Well, and I think that the
thing that is difficult for a lot of couples, and this should be incorporated into the more traditional vows if it isn't a commitment to communicate. And I think that people
have a difficult time and this can be personality based, but you know how sometimes
when you're having a difficult moment with
someone who's a friend, any relationship. And sometimes what you have to do is you have to have
that meta conversation. You have to talk about the way
that you talk to each other. You have to be like, you have to sit, some couples get to a place where, Oh, we're not really communicating, we're not connecting anymore. And we have lost the ability to talk about the fact that we're
not connecting anymore. And I think that that happens
in so many relationships, it's like, if you stop talking about the nature of your connection
is gonna be very difficult to get the connection back
without addressing that directly. If you're just focused
on the superficial stuff, the specifics of the current
argument that you're in, but you haven't gotten to the, how do you actually connect
and how you communicate solving this particular problem
is not gonna be helpful. It's just gonna just kick
the can down the road, and I think that's what
you were getting at earlier with the marriage counseling is like, it helps you having a
third party a lot of times, Oh, we can have the uncomfortable
conversation that we, for some reason can't have
with just the two of us. You break through to that,
plane, its a different plane. Not just premarital, but like marriage therapy is very good, sometimes you just have to
bring in a third person. And my therapist is my wife's therapist, which is not necessarily
advisable across the board, but in our situation,
because a lot of the times what we're doing is we're
talking about each other is like, well, my therapist has
the other side of the story. And then occasionally, if
there's like an acute issue, we'll both go in together,
and that has been helpful. I think, knowing that most relationships, I'm not gonna say all, there's
this entropy, right, of it okay, this isn't gonna last forever because we're both imperfect people that have are prone to selfishness. And we're not the same person, and there's so many
variables, you never know what could be thrown at us as a couple. So then it's just having
this mentality that okay, if that's the tendency,
then we have to be vigilant about the threats to our relationship from internal and external
and just know that, okay, we're gonna identify, and we're gonna face
these threats head on. And not just because we know that that's what's most likely to happen is that something is
gonna sneak up on you. And then a few months, you're like, okay, there's a wall that's built up. This is a threat to our marriage longterm. It's not just lean to a
bad week or a bad month. I felt like I had this
very heightened commitment, Christy's parents are still together, my parents were in my
experience were never together. And so I had this mentality that like, I was gonna stay committed, divorce was never an option I haven't reassessed
all of that mentality. Maybe there's some
negative aspects to that. And I think you can lean
on that and it's like, it minimizes the amount
of work that goes into it. You just can't say, well,
divorce is not an option. Like we've already talked
about, that's not how you dance just by saying, well, I'm gonna stand here and I'm gonna be here, that's not dancing. And I thought statistically,
you hear this thrown around, I don't know if it's true, I don't know what the
latest statistics are but I always heard when I was in the church that the divorce rate inside and outside of the church is about the same. I always found that hard to believe, just because I didn't see as much divorce in the circles that I was in, because it felt like
people were more committed because they did have this sort
of ideological underpinning that included divorce is not an option. And I do think that there
is a dark side to that because a lot of times it ends up being, and I've witnessed this not with friends, but just with people
that we knew in church, where there would be like this
person is being emotionally, maybe even physically abused. And yet they're staying in this marriage because they have this
ideological commitment and that's for them to figure out. Or for the kids or for other reasons, but as it applies to us, I think that, 'cause my parents are still together. Jessie's parents are still together, so I didn't have that same sort of like, well, I'm gonna be different. But I brought the same
mentality that you did to the marriage is like- It is nice to have it off the table, where you agree from the beginning, from before the beginning
of being married, that like divorce under
normal circumstances is not an option, we're not gonna use it as
a relational escape patch. It's a last resort. And I do think that there
is again, and this is not- When it comes to relational that I guess. I'm not judging anybody and
I'm not prescribing anything. I would have a difficult time, obviously kids change the picture because you've got some people
who are gonna be affected, especially if they're kids
that you're currently raising they're in the house. But if there's a couple that again, just like marriage at this show, which this has become an ad
for this show unintentionally, but like, okay, if you
believe that getting married and getting divorced on a
television show is wrong, then I can't argue with that. I'm not gonna change your mind about that. But if you think that
these people came into this on their own volition, then
they together made the decision. They weren't compatible, they haven't brought
any kids into this yet. And then they make a decision to mutually separate and get divorced. Then I'm not gonna be like, well, you have dishonored the institution of marriage by doing that. And I'm also gonna say
that if it's somebody everyone has their own reasons for it. But I think that it's the
idea that this committee, this is like this, isn't
just a serious thing. This is a commitment that through all these
potential circumstances that we're gonna stay together. Because if we don't think like that, we're gonna see a way out. And then in your lowest moments,
you might go for the door if you've installed the door. But if you've never installed the door, you're not gonna leave, but you know what? You could decide at a certain
point in your relationship together, hey, let's install the door. If you come to that
conclusion as a couple. And you're like, I think that
we need to seriously consider that maybe we're not supposed to be in relationship with each other. There was a time in my life when I subscribed to an
evangelical worldview where I would be like,
that's the devil talking. You can't go there, 'cause that's now you're talking about
building the escape hatch and you're gonna do it. And my perspective on that has changed. It's like, it's not my
role to judge other couples and how they go about that but what I can say from
speaking from own experiences is that not building the escape patch, not putting the door in
has been one of the reasons I can point to for being
married for 19 years For me. And for me too. I'm sure that there's
people in our position who were saying similar things and then down the road, they get divorced. Of course. Even that couple that I was
making all these assumptions about because they're public and they're saying they're friends that's just me bringing
my assumptions to it, I don't even know their names. What are the names let's say them? It does get complicated and I do wanna make a commitment
to not judge other people. I mean, cause it's like, who have been, or are
going through a divorce. I think there's clear because
what I hear you and me saying is that if what you
have collectively decided to do is this, then there are certain
decisions that you can make to help make that
reality become a reality. That idea become a reality. What you've made together decide that you want a different reality. Well, 'cause everything
that we said seems to imply that the high road is to stay- Married forever. Married forever. And I used to think that, and there is something beautiful about it. I'm not gonna argue with that. And I do think there is
something beautiful about like overcoming adversity and like just the nature of commitment,
but you know what, there's plenty of examples of people who were in a difficult marriage and not just necessarily one that they needed to get out
of for like safety reasons, but just people who
mutually discovered that they wanted something different. Now there each and other
beautiful, committed relationships. That's a reality as well. And there was a time in my life. Again, if you subscribe to sort of a conservative,
evangelical worldview, then if you really read certain parts of the
Bible in a certain way, then those marriages after divorce are illegitimate marriages. And I'm glad that I don't
have to think that anymore because the observational,
my experience is that no actually some of those
marriages are better and healthier and better for these people and better for the world
than the previous marriage. And I'm not gonna cancel that marriage because I got some ideological commitment. How do you think my
mom felt over the years when like culturally, we
were in an environment where it was like, you
can't, I mean, you failed. Something is wrong with you. Twice. You're in your third marriage now. It's like, you failed twice. And that's not what happened. And in many places, you're not qualified to be in leadership. If you're in a relationship like that. Like you've kind of like,
you've got this mark on you and you can never recover. I think we've said
everything through the filter through the lens of, we love
our wives and they love us. And that's, I wanna be
with Christy until I die. Cause she'll already be dead, no or until she dies. I mean, I just wanna cover the
basis until one of us dies. It's called till death do us part. Yeah, I don't wanna start, like- They took care of that a long time. Who dies first? It's not until I, or you die. It's till death do us part. You don't have to think
about who dies first. You just say that. 'Cause you don't wanna
have to unravel that. I told Jessie she's younger than me, I'm tall, I'm gonna die first. I mean, I'm just going with the stats, tall people don't live that long, sorry. She gets very upset when
I start talking like that. So commitment looks different for her than it does for you. Yeah, I'm like, listen, if things go as according to just like nature, you're gonna have at least a few years to just find a new man. How does that feel? I mean, you're joking now but- She hates when I talk, I love
to joke with her about that. Because she says things like, well, if I died, how long would
it take you to get married? And? And then I say things like, I don't know if I would get married and then she gets really mad. Oh really? Cause she wants you to get married. She don't want you to be what? a Philander or Playboy or something? I don't know, and I was like, I just haven't thought
about it, cross that bridge if we get there, you know what I'm saying? But like, I don't know. I'm a different person. If you're honest though, I
think what you would say, I know what you would say. You'd say, well, I've
been watching this show. I'm gonna go on this show. That season three of
"Married at First Sight" is everyone is a widower or a widow. I think I just gave you all a good idea. That's gonna get real heavy. Talk about crying while you watch it. And now you gotta hear all the stories of how their spouse died,
but that's a bad idea. I mean, but as a producer,
they have to think about it. They've been talking about it. Oh yeah, hopefully a producer
of "Married at First Sight" is listening in. So we ended up just talking about- Marriage. We talked about marriage, but we really just talking
about our marriages. I mean, I thought about
those four marriages on that television show as well. I mean, I didn't really
get into specifics. So is that your recommendation this week? What's the name of the television show? Arranged and arranged. I'm gonna give another
recommendation on top of that. What is the name of the show? It's "Married at First
Sight", it's on Netflix. I can only vouch for
the most recent season. I don't know what season that is. It might be season two,
I'm only four episodes in, but I do have another wreck that goes back to what we
were talking about before, which is some of the
things that we continue to be dealing with as a society for the betterment of our society. And it's a book that I made it a recommendation in my letter to a white man that I wrote, but I'm gonna talk about
it specifically here. And that is, "I'm Still
Here: Black Dignity "In A World Made For Whiteness"
by Austin, Channing Brown. And this book, I'm just gonna
read the description here that was made by whoever
wrote this particular review, the Hello Sunshine Book
Pick, a Reese's Book Club. "From a leading voice on racial justice "and eye opening account of
growing up black Christian "and female that exposes
how white America, "white America is a love
affair with diversity. "So often falls short of its ideals." And I know that you
started this book as well, but the general idea of the book is exactly what was just described there. That we can come to this place and this is something that is happening in the midst of the movement right now, where a bunch of white people can be like, yes, we value diversity, and we believe that is something
that should be represented in our circles of
friends, in our businesses in society, in our leadership
and our legislature. It's the right thing to say. And it's an easy thing to say right now, One, her point is- Challenging to enact. She tells from a very
personal perspective, what it has been like to be in white spaces as a black woman in spaces that said that
this is what they valued. And maybe even thought that
this is what they valued, but didn't understand
what that actually meant. It's incredibly challenging,
it's incredibly eyeopening. I think it actually, I don't know if it wasn't New York times
bestseller from the beginning or if it has become a
New York times bestseller in the midst of this movement, but it is a New York times bestseller 'cause it's two years old, but it is really sort of experiencing this new wave of interest
because it speaks so directly to the movement that
is happening right now. And I think more importantly, or even more importantly for a
couple of white dudes like us is asking the question of
what does moving beyond valuing diversity to making diversity an inclusivity and sort
of deconstructing this, white is the norm mentality that a lot of us have
without even realizing it. What does it take to break that down? What does it take to move beyond that? Because that's the real
work that needs to happen? It's not just recognizing
the racial injustice is doing something about it
and having a real change. So "I'm Still Here" by
Austin Channing Brown, and it is a pretty easy read. So no excuses for not
checking this one out, wherever you check out books, you could just buy the book as well, don't just check it out. All right, we'll speak
at you again next week. And please as always
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