A History Teacher Reacts | "What if the Communists Lost the Chinese Civil War?" by AltHistoryHub

[Music] hey youtube welcome back to another history teacher reacts video of mr. Terry as I continued my search for historical knowledge here on the Internet alright today's video was chosen by our patron pledgers in this week's poll they chose this which is what if the Communists lost the Chinese Civil War this is by alternative history hub so this is gonna be great because it's gonna be a what if you know what if type of video and this would have huge impact right so you get the Chinese Civil War here between the Nationalist Party and the Communist Party and of course the Communist Party wins out transforming China into the largest populated communist state on the planet and is a big part of kind of Chinese insight right now so instead to see what they kind of have if the Kuomintang the the Nationalist Party had won out and the communist movement had fallen I mentioned to see kind of what they're gonna put out there so again this video was chosen by our patrons if you would like to be a part of future polls all patrons of any pledge level get to get to vote in that there will be a link down below to our patreon that you can check that out if you like this original video there'll also be a link down below to this original video make sure you like and if you haven't subbed to alternative history hub they're one of the great alternative alt history channel's out there that cover a lot of topics and I've really enjoyed kind of looking at them I'll try to get my perspective you know I'm gonna agree with things do i disagree with things whatever I'm very interested to see what their perspective is though so let's go ahead and get started what if the Communists lost the Chinese Civil War see what they got oh no on mentioning something controversial what thank to YouTube oh they all D monetizing debates rap [Music] the 20th century probably changed no country mother than China over the course of just 50 years it went from an imperial system that existed since civilization began to a period of warring States to Civil War to Maoist communists to well whatever you can call China now people forget how big this this transformation was giant China has been part of the dynastic cycle since the BC air I mean Chinese civilization is the oldest civilization right now continuous civilization on the planet and had a dynastic cycle for basically like 3,000 years and when it the Communist Party takes over that ends it a huge part of Chinese history has that Imperial rule right it's such a difference such a flip in what their society and culture is gonna become today China becoming communist seems just like in inevitability but really how it was one of the most least likely scenarios that could have happened for decades now in his Red Army were simply a fringe but through guerrilla warfare some poor decision making by their enemies and just dumb good luck mal eventually came up on top I guarantee something I gonna talk about is how World War two actually helped the Communist Party because before the Civil War the Communists were losing they were a friend group like they were saying and World War two played a big role in that we actually helped push their cause a little bit and by the end of the war more people had sort of joined that movement than before so the Communist Party benefited in a way from the from World War two as it did help grow their movement and stifled the Kuomintang or the competing government in China but Cody you say there was never an armistice so technically nobody won the Chinese Civil War because it didn't end it I don't one of those things for fur tie things always interesting there's no armistice so there's no war it's like an in Korea today it's like they're still technically a war because there was an armistice but no peace treaty right I mean if you're not fighting is a war happening you know I think we get I think we really get caught up in in like the bureaucracy of war and and all that stuff like the the pieces of paper right and with signings on them and I mean in the end those things don't really matter that much it's actions that really define a conflict on what the state of a conflict is one over the mainland so yeah in all sense the Communist one so the question here is what if the Communists lost the Chinese Civil War if you want to know what started the war these channels have covered the lead up far better in look we got extra stream we got our yeah we got the extra history there in simple history down below love those channels more in-depth than I ever could I'd recommend watching one of those videos first yeah good all right with this alternate timeline what's the decisive moment that everything changes after the Nationalists launched a purge of thousands of communists war had begun the Communists actually had it pretty bad for the first few years of the war by 1934 they were on the brink of becoming just another footnote in China's long history surrounded by all sides by the Nationalists and their desperation they decided the best move was to retreat and reorganize long march break through the weakest opening in march 9,000 kilometers north through mountains and warlords to regroup at a better position I mean the the long march as this is people to understand how grueling of a thing this was 9,000 kilometers it'd basically be like marching across the entire United States with an enemy on your tail you're gonna be starving you're starving to death you're gonna be exhausted it's actually a big moment in their history because one thing would they did with the long march is their leaving all the gwanmiseong was the National Discoverer at that time all those controlled areas which is basically all the populated parts on the East Coast and going west through mountains into more rural areas where the government and the military doesn't have nearly as much of a presence but the the the long march actually helped recruit a lot of people because as they would go through these villages you know they would talk about their plight and and actually converted sort a lot of people to their cause actually helped grow them it's seen as a a big kind of heroic time period especially for Mao Zedong and it's like a big sign of pride in communist history is then surviving this March 90% didn't make it through the year long try let's go back out on missin kilometers north through mountains and warlords to regroup at a better position 90% didn't make it through the year long truck many dying from crossing a river which led to a change in leadership but it was the maneuver that saved the Red Army and put now on track to becoming a national figure in this alternate scenario one simple change is the Communists don't take the long march they don't escape instead they are surrounded and annihilated okay the Nationalists become the sting I mean that would be that would be the most likely moment for that to happen for the Communists to sort of lose I guess would be here they try to fight back or maybe they just don't get out I guess that would make sense it's one of the likely splinter points here Raina's power in a war-torn China to them at least their biggest rival is now gone but now the National is alone have to deal with another enemy a foreign enemy yeah I mean the the world war two is gonna would happen regardless right Japan would still invade now one of the the famous things about when Japan invades is the civil war pauses the the two groups the the nationalist and the Communists end up teaming up temporarily for those years and fighting against Japan to kind of understanding hey like enemy of your enemy is your friend kind of thing even though they all know it's gonna it's gonna end with the civil war reuniting so one thing I guess I would think about here before they talk about it is would the Communist Party not being there would that have an effect on China defending against Japan is Japan I mean their conquest is going to be incredibly brutal would it actually help them defend against the Japanese I could see this going on a lot of different directions the nationalists and our timeline handled the Japanese invasion of poorly granada' took the industrial might of the United States to ultimately destroy Japan's industrial capabilities but even then for the Nationalists the way they conducted themselves didn't paint them in the best light so I mean it wouldn't so wouldn't have changed much Japan still would have won but it would have been harder for the Chinese are easier because they didn't have to deal with this Civil War on the cusp of the world war two like abandoning Nanking their own capital doing nothing to stop the Japanese from well you know or intentionally flooding one of the most populated regions to stop Japan's advancements killing 400 to 500 thousand of their own civilians in the process yeah they weren't perfect or competent even if the Nationalists did win against the Communists they still probably would have done such buffoonish maneuvers during the war which only hurts their own reputation to the general public okay so I agree I guess I do agree with this it doesn't seem like necessarily it would help them fight against maybe the Japanese I'm having to cuz I mean I guess they're still saying you still had the I mean if from this time line there was still that fighting that had happened right before the long march so that still would have affected them but yeah I mean the Japanese Imperial might was is way bigger than you think China had with or without the eve of the Civil War so yeah I just don't think that would have happened for sure and that would have been worse yeah possibly but one thing they could have talked they're they're talking about here which I could I could I could follow this processes with how poorly the Nationalist government is going to defend themselves against Japan that the Chinese public would turn on the nationalist government and would look for reform or something like that that could definitely happen especially if they're doing things that really put people in harm's way as they're fighting the Japanese like these floodings and stuff like that those mistakes by the Nationalists don't come to bite them in the ass so to say I doubt there could be some major other force that could challenge them with Japan gone yeah he lost we did nationalist China goes into the 50s a new post-war world whether they like it or not the Nationalists are still the best group in China to be able to defend against the Japanese I don't know what other alternative you gotta had gotta clean neutral Lanka but China without communism isn't a China without authoritarianism probably something that just comes with having come from belated country in the world the nationalist or cumin tang or not pro-democracy in the beginning our Sun yat-sen's guidance yes the original nationalists did wish for an american-style government but these were early days hell the nationalists and communists were even common allies against the imperial system however over time and especially after sons of death the nationalist goal became a united China under one party for at least a while and we never rise all the democracy airily be a one-party though just because it's just the Nationalist Party now who's the biggest one just by default I guess you see part two Taiwan in the eighties image didn't know because what happens with Taiwan because since the Nationalists lose they flee mainland China and created the state of Taiwan pretty much but I guess it would still be in it would be in Chinese hands it wouldn't be like an independent nation which is a different story of how China views their relationship with Taiwan today China going into this post-war world is one that above all else hates communist I can assume this relationship translates to at least a positive one with the Americans moving into the 50s but I doubt they'd remain the best of friends with them put him better though Chang was vocal about renegotiating the unfair treaties with the West made after European Wars so I don't think non Communist China just jumps into becoming a part of the free world after the war yeah I mean that's true because regardless of your political party the the Chinese society did not like the Western imperialism that had been taking taking over in China since the 1800s with things end up with like the Boxer Rebellion are the opium wars and stuff like that that was one of the things that everybody could basically agree upon one of the big differences was modernized and modernization you know and and China of course was a little bit late to that when it came to military militarily which is why they struggled so much so yeah I mean you would have those ties because if they have any assemblance of being a republic or a democracy that's gonna make things look a little bit more favorite towards favor towards the west but never in the way that China would lose its autonomy which of course I mean it did at that time this is when China's breaking out of that though right the Wars distracted that and a lot of the Western influence ended with with that with that in World War two because China had become split up by these spheres of influence for for decades back then so yeah I guess you could see they there would be a little bit more Pro West but not complete it'll be like any kind of unification or anything I that's for sure instead they'd become a dictatorship one-party state they might lean more towards the US but it'd still be a colder relationship than say Japan or Germany unlike those countries which were basically built from the ground up by the Allies China wanted welcomed Westerners just coming in again and make sure incisions for their country bad memories you could say even with that said China still would be vulnerable to Soviet influence considering the border they share and I mean even in the early republic era it still basically became a I mean a single-party state I mean when the dynasty the Ching dynasty final dynasty collapsed the new Republic of China was pretty much just run by people from the previous dynasty a lot of it was was was run by that so there wasn't as much change as you possibly Buddha thought so I'm still I'm still mulling over my head the idea could there be strong second and third political parties in China and that I'm trying to think right now about how World War two would have influenced that would World War two had it would have helped them I mean solidify them as as being a single party because I'm not so sure if they're also making the point here that the Nationalist Party would not be seen as favorable right because some of their actions cuz they're still gonna do horribly in the war that that wouldn't have led to the rise of a another party so I'm not I don't know if I'm totally full in on yet that it would have been a single party dictatorship quite yet I could very much be wrong and I have to look and that more but these are just some of the thoughts I'm having as this is going through right now it'd be this initial defense that's the majority of American Chinese relations even if China was not communist the Korean War probably still would have happened okay let me think about that yes I guess but China propped up North Korea in that war so if if North Korea still has a communist or Korea and general still has a communist movement more supported by the Russians but not the chain not the Chinese is there any way the North Koreans would have defeated the South especially because the United States would still have supported the non-communist South though so yeah it might happen but is there any way though it could have happen as long and end in a stalemate just China propped up right but the North North Korea stove would have invaded and the Soviets would have supplied them a difference here however is that the war would be over very quickly the only reason the war and diamond stalemate at all after three years there be no North Koreans launched a full-scale invasion pushing back the south if China was to get involved at all it'd be to aid the UN Americans and South Koreans to stop the north and Kim il-sung's reign would end just as soon as it began Korea becoming fully United or maybe China taking a little bit Vietnam never would have entered the vocabulary of Americans remaining a small Southeast Asian nation that even if it was split would have become a very short war if the North did attempt to unify the nation cuz yeah you'd have that's the same thing what would happen with the with the Vietnam War cuz that's another thing that's gonna be a proxy war Vietnam war probably doesn't end the way it does either and and of course ends of the communist Victor you know a stalemate so that may not have happened either because it wouldn't have had the Chinese support there so there might be a Vietnamese war but away ended like their hypothetical Korea which is the noun communist parts definitely win so you get the point China becoming communist caused the greatest shift in American foreign policy before 1950 even though the Soviets had taken control of half of Europe the Cold War was still limited to just Europe there was a fear of worldwide communism from the West but that fear wasn't realized until the world's largest nation became red from so so the Cold War still happens but we'll definitely favor the capitalists side of things because without China helping that you had a cold war is not nearly as extensive then it then it actually was fun stopping communism from spreading to any other nation across the globe became top priority for the West the domino theory was born and was seen as the main reason for why the US should dedicate so much effort into a tiny country like Vietnam no matter the cost but without communist China well that was that was the idea if you didn't know there's this idea of domino theory with Eisenhower and Americans that if Vietnam Falls that there would be a chain react to communism wherever that there would be a chain reaction throughout South Southeast Asia right there'd be a chain reaction cuz it's like you think of communism going from Russia right then moving into China and the North Korea and then south into Vietnam would be this domino effect so there would not be without that even being a possibility to have this domino effect there probably is no Vietnam war at all like doesn't even get attempted right where I don't know if you can say that fully with the orthe with the Korean War which definitely more likely could happen because main focus remains on Europe in not proxy wars in Asia the cold war in a way becomes less escalated sure world split but less so and the conflict less global in turn the 60s still would have been rocked by the civil rights movement but as for the identity of the majority of Americans Vietnam and the fear the rise of communism happen is much less considered so there's no la carte Joseph McCarthy and McCarthyism no second Red Scare you wonder if they're still gonna be the nuclear like the nuclear hysteria with the Russians or as Russia I kind of emboldened by the fact that you know during the Cold War emboldened by the fact that there is major nations like like China although the Russians are Chinese had a very complicated relationship with like Mao and Stalin not getting along very well and things like that but that's more of a different story this is very difficult to accurately predict while there is some historical precedent to go off how Nationals China would you know govern the easiest thing to say is millions certainly don't die from Mouse collectivist policies so to tackle this pretty amazing when you think about it with the millions that died millions that died in these collectivization process where the the government is going to take take control of agriculture and delegate more that which which ends up creating famines pretty amazing that even with those incredible famines the biggest famines in history that china will still maintain such a lead in population as having the largest population on earth even with these you know millions upon millions tens of millions of people that are gonna die in very short periods of time due to starvation start in broad changes then go into specifics first the modern culture of China itself yes the millions of deaths certainly would have an impact on the nation but I'd say the most defining impact of Mao was the Cultural Revolution mouthes plan to create a permanent revolution rile up the masses call for a purge of the party and go back to the good old days as in before he destroyed his credibility with the famine yeah well yeah definitely after those like the the Great Leap Forward and some of these other policies they were trying to to like do it they basically tried to do it superhuman effort of production right maybe not unlike the five-year plans and stuff that Joseph Stalin had done but the Cultural Revolution which happens later is kind of for generation two of Chinese Communists because the new generation that was being born the new young adults hadn't been around and what they saw those like glory days of the Chinese Revolution when it was so much about this philosophy and again revolution these new people never experienced that that was the Cultural Revolution was and they were trying to purge any of the the anti-communist sentiment that might be starting to brew in China with this new generation again because they didn't through the other parts what they've experienced in their young lives is a lot of the devastation and the famine which naturally is their gonna grow up it might make them not as excited about the Communist philosophy which or the Cultural Revolution was and it moved basically indoctrinating these kids and stuff like that and they would purge all these anti intellectual movements and stuff like that that they saw saw is a threat to the continuation of communism so yeah I mean so that doesn't end up happening which end up purging a lot purging a lot of their intellectuals educators and stuff like that which hurt China economically he shut down schools and students became a new generation of revolutionaries reading the books of Mao and remembering to destroy the old which included teachers intellects historical and cultural artifacts of old China a million died by the seventies Mao died and China thought hey maybe some parts of capitalism aren't all bad that's that's what dang the guy that takes over four takes it ends up taking over later for when Mao dies was like okay we gotta have some kind of capitalist reforms some that you could still keep the spirit of communism but are gonna have to be a little more economically progressive because one thing I was for sure from the Mao years is economically it was not working out for China they're starving they not trading because everyone's sanctioning them right I don't know and the the big nade trading economic nations don't want anything to do with China and yeah that was happening to also the Chinese were selling stuff to the Russians which is a big reason why the famines happen to was selling to rice because they had no one to turn their no large nations to trade was because nobody will want anything to do with them - they were communist so they had to have some kind of market reforms they had to and yeah dang who takes over after was trying to find that balance you know he killed the old Chinese culture the one of Confucius - old dynastic ideals and traditional thought yeah Shang on the other hand was adamant about traditional Chinese culture and ideals the nationalists at least preserved that culture and were at least more kind to religion China certainly is a a democracy by any means Chiang rule Taiwan until his death Taiwan didn't start actually becoming democratic until the mid 80s I say this to show where the national student politically we can't just copy Taiwan's history and paint it as an alternate show you have China would be fully operational meaning they'd have decades to attempt to industrialize how effective would this be well it certainly be better than mal forcing people to make steel in their backyards but yeah that was a thing they were like we can add US tries it can't be that hard well we'll have people build steel mills in their back yard of course they're extremely dangerous right they explode people don't know what they're doing that you can look at pictures of them these little like just crappy little steel mills they were building of course the quality sucked so nobody wanted to buy it nobody wanted to buy Chinese steel that's made in some guys backyard when you could buy other steel from real steel producers they thought that you could just that you can just turn on the industrial switch that I can just happen doesn't work like that right a duster ization was built upon a market economy so I mean it's how it was made possible by any means China would join the global economy decades before our own and this has both positive and negatives as positive the country isn't isolated socially and economically until the 70s like under Mao as a chance to build itself up and grow its nation on the negative now a fragile Chinese state ruled by a party with not the best track record of stability is a part of the global economy so take that as you will altering history is theorizing it's not a prediction set in stone if China never turned to communism it's plausible that it remains an authoritarian one-party state for a time but gradually shifts to a democracy or maybe the corruption and instability I still wasn't really connecting the assurance that there would still be a one-party democracy without that just under Chiang kai-shek like that's just what you're gonna have I got to dwell on that a little bit more if the nationalist leads to yet another civil war or maybe it remain a one-party state and the people would simply be fine with that to be honest whether communist or nationalists the modern problems we have with the China we see today probably go on I'll get finished I don't see what they wrote dominating the global economy probably still happens because it does that anyways over Bering Sea territory I guess these yet today in the South China Sea undemocratic system which you still have big elements of that and controlling in Hong Kong and Macau yeah because that was all pre that was all pre Chinese Civil War yeah okay we would have made Muslims we have with the China we see today probably would have been the exact same once Mao died China began its own reforms tore down his policies that were even unpopular when he was alive he may call itself communist may even still fly the red banner but the China of today is really really similar to that one-party state the Nationalists once fought for that pretty much what I think is the China that you have now starts earlier right the China of now starts rather than that starting in the 80s right that could have started started to begin where after World War two communism was tried as always millions died and it was switched out the market today isn't as free as Europe or America but China today is capitalistic its party has tied hand in high with its own owned corporations if Nationals China's Huerta has you have an X you have almost extreme forms of of a market economy and capitalism you have some extreme versions of different things there so yeah it's like your capitalist dictatorship almost because you have these companies like all these privately owned companies but they the government of course has their thumb on it right and don't reg you there's a lot of things course the Chinese government regulates the economy there's a lot of things they don't write like people to talk about there with with labor laws like they're not getting involved in that right of keeping wages higher or the environmental effects that these companies have like they're very hands-off and a lot of things then very hands-on on a lot of things it's it's an interesting mix of extremes and it did rise we'd see fewer of these state-owned companies but the effects that nation has on the global stage would probably just be the same the problems with China today is that it's really the way China has always been the state has always been authoritarian to keep control of such a large population Oh China before the Europeans fears of influence was the exact same way and the China we see today is as well in my opinion I don't think that a China under the nationalist would have been liberalized like they did in Taiwan a leave in the United States with hundreds of years of practice still has its own issues on the matter brutal crackdown of dissidents authoritarian measures and weariness of outside influence it's simply transformed and changed clothes throughout the centuries rising no matter who would have one the only difference is who gets to take the credit but China certainly is an enigma this is Kody of alternate history of okay so just in and to wrap up Ruth Cody they're on a couple things I still need to think about would it have necessarily been a one-party dictatorship especially if the Nationalists weren't going to be liked for them dealing with Japan in the Second World War but it's almost like he was saying that it doesn't matter who would have been in power would have been a similar thing that you'd have this experimentation right as a republic because the the Chinese Republic that was created 19-teens into the 20s was in fact very weak and like I said ended up being run by a lot of people from the final dynasty but I don't know I saying kind of saying that they're saying that that you know that might have been unpopular but there's still dirt a world war two but he's still saying though that they still would have been in power and been as a dictatorship so I do agree he was saying it wouldn't just have become Taiwan which becomes very capitalistic and democratic that way you wouldn't have that because I mean that was founded by people so on so many people not the moderates but so many people on that side of they're gonna be more capitalistic reminded right especially for what Taiwan becomes it becomes very closely tied with the West you probably don't have that not nearly as much of the openness with the foreign world that traditionally the majority of Chinese society has everyone because China has never wanted that Chinese has always want to had to have cultural autonomy goes back to their ancient hair it's always something they had wanted but never liked those always hated those eras when when Westerners or any foreigners in general had big footprints in China they've always hated that go and go and go back to the the Mongols were among the first foreigners to go and take that out and when the Ming Dynasty takes them over they totally try to reverse China back to its pre foreign ways you know and those things then fast-forward into the Industrial Revolution era when place like Germans and British etc had gone in and able to carve out big parts of Chinese influence leading to things like to Boxer Valley and they opium wars so that that definitely would have true now they'd still be an economic power because you can see they're gonna become an economic power even with the setbacks that came with the Communist years of China mm-hmm so there are a lot of things I definitely agree with it I don't think anything just completely I would disagree with with the realm of possibility I do think it looks like the biggest impact that this would actually have on the present day would be the effect it has on the Cold War right the Korean War ago is very different Vietnam probably doesn't happen right Russia maybe becomes less in bold and because they don't have all these other nations to sort of build upon outside of the Soviet Union right so maybe that although the the so are the Cold War doesn't escalate into much bigger there are gonna be fewer proxy wars for sure especially the ones that were more with China getting involved then the Russians ever do so that definitely happened so if there is no if the if the the Cold War doesn't necessarily happen what does that do to Russia does Russia because that's another thing they don't really talk about it what the effect of this would be on Russia does that mean Russia isn't going to be as invested potentially in the Cold War and not worry about that trying to China impose more communist values on other parts of the world now the Cold War things like the space race end up in a lot of ways by the 1980s bankrupting the Soviet Union because our economy collapsed it was hard for it was actually impossible basically for the Soviets to keep up with the Western capitalist world specially America economically speaking because the the communist system was not making them an economic power to compete with with the West so what what change has happened there does it make it worse for the Soviets the Soviet Union actually collapse earlier because that could be a possible thing because what would the what would the what would the relationship between Chinese and Russians have been what they've been selling the Russians food and all that stuff or worried more about themselves because that's actually where I think the next the where this should really kind of lead into is the effect of what it has on the Cold War and a focus on that I think would be really interesting to look at cuz I could see that going a lot of ways helping Russia hurting Russia then what they indirectly what happens to America with that does America become more of a power right almost by default because you don't have possibly what happens to the Russians in the Chinese is America become a stronger power on the world scene because that's definitely possible as well there's a lot of other branches that often you know that's how alternate history is it it branches into so many different things and it's hard to keep it on one branch because there's going to be so many that are created those are just my thoughts going in here another great video from alternates and our history hub people Cody over there love what they're doing fun to talk about I'm definitely if you have ideas about what you think would happen thrown down in the YouTube comments section or better yet join our discord server there's a link down below and you can get discussion going on in there as long as we keep it pretty civil and you know keep it a civil which we generally happens in our in our discussion threads there so lots of things to talk about what if the communists lost the Chinese war or Chinese Civil War so a lot of what-ifs there all right again on our way out here this video was voted on by our patrons if you would like to join in our weekly polls make sure you go down to the link below in the description you can join our patreon pledges start $1 a month and that gets you access to the polls higher tiers get you other things but that is one way you can have a little more influence on this channel but first and foremost just thanks for being here thanks for watching the video thanks for liking for subscribing telling your friends about our channel here and hopefully we can grow our historical community on this little corner of the Internet all right with that we'll see you guys soon bye [Music] you

Channel: Mr. Terry History

Views: 87,777

Keywords: react, history, chinese civil war, china, alt history

Id: K-ZssrwIXFQ

Length: 37min 31sec (2251 seconds)

Published: Mon Jan 06 2020